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China Is On Track To Fully Phase Out Cash (vice.com)
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report via Motherboard: Experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, becomes the first to go totally cashless. In a poky sex toy shop in Sanlitun shopping district in central Beijing, a placard with a QR code is strategically placed next to a pink, vein-knobbled dildo called the Super Emperor, and a clitoral pump. Just scan your phone, and walk out with your purchase. The cigarette vendor across the street accepts smartphone payments too. A fast-moving queue of customers purchase smokes by scanning their phones over a tatty cardboard QR code. All the bars in Sanlitun, equal parts seedy and swish, still take cash, but have likewise implemented cashless pay, largely through the ubiquitous WeChat and Alipay app, as primary payment platforms. Beijing taxi drivers accept smartphone payments too. No one in the area uses physical money, for sex toys or otherwise. Largely due to China's vibrant fintech landscape, the recent rise of phone payments in the country has shunted cash onto the endangered list, perhaps somewhere alongside the pangolin. Many experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, also becomes the first to phase it out to become fully cashless. But when will this moment come?
Also known as "China wants us to believe that China Is On Track To Fully Phase Out Cash".
I've toured rural China with my Wife's family. Most folks outside the big cities only have power during the day, unless they are lucky and own a generator.
My UID is prime and so is this number: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.
Phasing out cash is a great tool for every totalitarian system. Because then, you can only pay for something if you actually are allowed to by the government. Also, it allows for total big brother like surveillance.
The new tools that technology gives us allow for real strict totalitarian regimes, and it seems that China is seizing the opportunity.
Just don't let anyone tattoo a QR code on your right hand or forehead and you should be ok in the next life.
Hard currency gives a person SOME freedom over goods and services they purchase. Make all transactions digital, no matter what, and the banks and governments can control what you buy, how much of it or denies it. Once it goes digital, the government can change a stupid law, tying anything to "healthcare". Sorry Bob...you last health check shows you to be 25 pounds over what WE SAY you should weigh...you can't buy that burger and fries, but we will let you buy a tofu salad and a glass of water (at double the price). Sorry Jill...according to our records, you have 2 accidents within the past year, both in SUV's, plus, you are spending way too much on fuel. You can't buy this new SUV, but, we have authorized purchase of a bicycle, and, your loan has been approved, but not for that house in the country. We think it would be best, if you have a smaller cramped apartment, near your job, so you can bicycle to work. This will also cut your carbon footprint, and help you exercise. Laugh now, but don't say it won't happen.
The author is hung up on sex toys - and possibly cigarettes.
#DeleteChrome
The people will immediately need to replace cash with some other token based system which will effectively become cash. It is not in the public's interest to phase out cash, it is about government control. How do you give your child pocket money? Tip to a beggar? Etc. etc. There are millions of situations where cash is best and a cashless society is not better in any way unless you are amongst the super rich or elite and making such decisions.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Sensational horse crap. Cash talks, E-money is full of risks and problems. I would rather have a US $100 dollar bill than an electronic promise to pay me.
Really? you are concerned about China while the western capitalism has long turned into a totalitarian liberal shithole with dollar slaves and homeless engineers in cities.
Pull your fucking brain out your ass, imbecile
It's what the cool kids use to pay.
slashdot: A failed experiment.
Take that Facebook! Google!
Warning! The summary contains gratuitous product placement, designed to entice us to read the article. Still, I guess if a flower shop was accepting cashless transactions, it wouldn't be as interesting, would it?
Experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, becomes the first to go totally cashless.
Many experts believe it won't be long before China, the first country to introduce paper money, also becomes the first to phase it out to become fully cashless.
You managed to dupe your own article within itself, is that a record?
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
Sure, leaders can keep tabs on everyone. But then how would leaders accept bribes without leaving a trail? There will always be some form of anonymous currency, if for no other reason.
Phasing out cash is a great tool for every totalitarian system.
China is not totalitarian. They are authoritarian. There is a difference.
As long as they don't challenge authority, Chinese people actually have greater freedom to go about their lives than Americans do: Americans are four times more likely to be arrested and incarcerated by their government.
You're not convincing me...
I imagine a small proportion of black slaves in America were arrested and incarcerated, as well. That's hardly the only measure of freedom, however.
"So long as you freely allow authoritarians to dictate what you can and can't do, without resisting or protesting" is a pretty big exception to freedom.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
Bitcoin would like to have a word with you.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
How easy would it be for people to pretend to pay for an item, and just walk out with it without paying for it?
But here is something that very few may think of. The company that runs the app will have a record for ALL transactions, this means it will see that you received $100 from a friend, you now have to pay taxes on that $100 as income because whoever runs the app will have to report any transaction over $100 (or multiple transactions adding up to over $100).
If you set up a garage sale to sell your stuff and everything uses direct payment, you now have to pay taxes on everything you made because there is now a record of it.
Some kind of replacement will be created if paper money is banned. It does not have to be a piece of paper with a number printed on it, It could be small coins of silver/gold. Something with real value.
Not exactly a "bank account". An account managed by a cell phone company with convenience stores and such acting as tellers. Google M-PESA. The M-PESA system is said to work pretty well in Kenya and Afghanistan. Here's a link http://www.economist.com/blogs...
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
That's when members of a community go "fuck it", and start bartering. None of that labor then gets tracked and/or collected on in the form a tax.
Life is not for the lazy.
So everyone is just ok with paying an extra 3% per transaction? On top of taxes?
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
"So long as you freely allow authoritarians to dictate what you can and can't do, without resisting or protesting" is a pretty big exception to freedom.
Authoritarians do not "dictate what you can and can't do". That is "totalitarianism" and China is nothing like that. Chinese people are free to travel abroad, change jobs, associate with whoever they want, live where they want. The main difference between them and Americans is that they have less reason to fear the police.
Oh, seriously. Stop that crap. Government doesn't care a shit if you buy bunny-fur bondage gear or pay strippers. And by paying in cash and carrying a gun you don't fight oppression, you're just being an idiot.
Nope. Real fights for freedom are won and lost at courts, political rallies and in elected offices.
Bitcoin would like to have a word with you.
Bitcoin is neither and effective nor a practical substitute for government backed fiat currency. If you don't understand why then you need to do some more reading because like most things in real life the truth is subtle, sophisticated and difficult to discern without proper education and experience. In fact, most people never understand our monetary system, even partially, to the great detriment of our society.
On that note...
I think you're making a distinction without a difference. "as long as they don't challenge authority" applies to both countries. The question is in how restrictive the authorities are.
The question is in how restrictive the authorities are.
Indeed. That is why I specifically mentioned that the risk of having your door kicked down in the middle of the night, and the police hauling you off to jail is four times higher in America.
>Americans are four times more likely to be arrested and incarcerated by their government.
Because American police does its job better
Believe it or not, there are still people without smart phones. Will they all be given phones, or are they meant to just die since they would be unable to use the system?
From what I see in daily life I agree cash is almost never used any longer, but it still serves purposes, and not everyone can use a phone based payment system.
they have less reason to fear the police.
Yeah, it's the army they have to deal with...
I kid! I kid! I'm sure they had a perfectly good reason to.... what did they do to that guy?
for the parasitic middlemen, sorry, payment platforms. I am really too stupid to get why people are willing to be dependent of a third party (who takes its percentage) in their payments in cases when banks aren't necessary to be involved. But, of course, smartphones are so cool, let's use them for everything.
So, that article could have been written, including the unnecessary sex shop details, about a lot of countries in the world where debit cards and/or credit cards are accessible to most people. Yeah, Visa and MasterCard seem to be going in the same direction as Kodak, they don't want to change their business because they don't want to lose money right now.
Great, so instead of getting a trial by jury, I am most likely to lose at great cost and expense for growing a coca or cannabis plant or poppy pod, I am likely to skip the 'fair trial' and go right to the organ harvesting.
Sounds like an improvement...
China ... also becomes the first to phase it out to become fully cashless. But when will this moment come?
If I had to guess, I would say that time is when officials stop accepting bribes and criminals stop trying to sell stolen goods. But the real and final end to cash is when the drug dealers accept cards, don't mind having a fully auditable trail of their transactions and start giving receipts.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
No, the poster is worried that globally there is a trend towards cashless, or at least, the media reports on cashless as being the next "big thing". The only advantages that cashless bring are to the totalitarian state, and the middle-men who charge transaction fees. Living in the US I don't give a fuck if China goes cashless, but I do very much hope it does not happen here. Finally, yes, there are other social and political issues that are more important right now, but the topic of this discussion is the cashless trend in China.
Yeah, they got something similar in Mexico. Now the long lines moved from the banks to the convenience stores. I think they're doing it on dialup. Cash is still safer.
Demonetisation recently happened in India. It is not a good idea in principle even. A) You keep paying middle-parties (mobile wallets, payment systems, card companies) on every transaction, so either the buyer or the seller loses out because of that. B) The idea that cashless societies reduce corruption is not true. It is not necessary for the corrupt to keep their money in cash form. They transfer it to tax havens.
Yes, I suppose as long as you confine your activities to working your 18hr shift at foxconn like a good socialist cog and never rock the boat, everything's 'great.' Your stat is meaningless, if it's even accurate, because the countries are not on even keel when it comes to human rights and civil liberties.
Phasing out cash is a great tool to get alternative barter systems going. Human nature evolves around restrictions like a non-anonymous payment system.
In prison, for example, and during wartime, too, are packs of cigarettes a fine means of payment. Tobacco doesn't quickly go bad, you can divide a pack easily into smaller parts in case of smaller transactions and the barter even comes with a box to hold the small cash amounts together. The box makes it easy to count. And it's a commonality in prison. Thus, great as exchange of value when selling and buying contraband.
In total wartime, same thing. If cash leaves, other barter systems replace it. Immediately.
If digital currency replaces anonymous cash, and the digital currency is not guaranteed to be anonymous (if criminals can't use it); it'll get replaced. Immediately. I expect there to be alternative barter systems in China already. They will grow in popularity the moment it's no longer possible to pay and sell anonymously with the national currencies of China.
4 times more likely compared to what statistics? Last time I checked every major city in China plays dirty with their statistics. What? People died in a car accident... nooo, they arrived dead at the hospital, they were announced dead there... see, not a direct cause from a traffic accident.
Many people are predicting 'big brother' while ignoring 2 facts:
1) Governments of the world can already track the movement of money because most of it has a digital footprint. Even currency can be 'tracked' at two points: its ejection from an ATM; and its deposit in another banking institution.
2) Just like VISA and MasterCard, the payment system needs only 2 additional facts: Who to send the money to; and how much.
This means the government can already separate a consumer or a seller from the banking institutions; making them penniless. Payment by phone has been on the drawing board for 15 years and isn't different to PayPal and other online payment systems.
What's new is, a technology has become popular enough to replace VISA and MasterCard. With phone-based payments I'd be more worried about my phone battery going flat or my handset being broken.
The war on terror/drugs/piracy/child porn has created the surveillance state and a skewed view of the benefit it provides. Slashdotters often mention that such surveillance hasn't stopped terrorists/drug-dealers/uploaders committing crimes. The benefit to the government of deciding what meal/house/car you can buy will be far smaller. Plus, it would qualify as restriction of trade; which would upset rich corporations that want to sell sugary snacks and overpriced houses
This moment will come right before an attack is in place, and the attackers are sure that the authorities aren't aware of it. Buy popcorn. It might be the new currency there too.
Sometimes courts, rallies, and elections don't work (eg: this last one).
And so you're going to pay cash to fix that. Yeah, right.
Who said 'just' paying cash will 'fix' the problem of governmental abuse? It can help mitigate the problem by denying the opportunity for mass abuse in the first place. No one said it was a total solution. Same thing with weapons, though they're usually brought out when people are at their wits end, en masse.
Sounds like you're more interested in punching holes in bad left wing stereotypes of the right than anything else.. Strawmen are so boring.
Except the whole living permit thing. Such a shame you and 100,000 of your fellow citizens are now only allowed to live and work in Xinjiang, conveniently displacing the local Muslim population with superior Han stock.
Of course you don't have to move. But of course it would be a crime to do anything else.
China is annexing sea and land owned by other nations and continue to march via coercion or violence towards their idealized ethnic monoculture and we get people like ShanghaiBill here defending them at every turn. They are doing what Germany did, just in very slow motion.
It's amazing how outdatet and steam-agey 1984 seems from a 2017 perspective. The encroachment on total control of the individual would be beyond anything imaginable 30 years ago if this Smartphone Cash thing gains foothold and pushes cash away.
It's definitely a pressing time to get a good look into cryptocurrency.
My 2 eurocents (cash).
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
How do you pay for your 1st phone without a phone :).
When something like the WannaCry affects the finance systems, and there is no cash, how will people get the immediate basics like their groceries?
Government doesn't care a shit if you buy bunny-fur bondage gear or pay strippers.
But my wife does, and she sees the credit card bills.
Phasing out cash is a great tool to get alternative barter systems going.
Mod this up. Bartering will spring up inevitably within any "cashless" society.
Well, why so much focus in China. Many countries in EU are already working mainly with paying via cards, smartphones and apps. One good example is the Netherlands, where for bigger payments an electronic transaction is almost obligatory and the use of card us heavily promited even for really small payments. Moreover, there are many stores that accept only card (or electronic) payments. And all these are heavily promoted and accepted on a nationwide scale, with further intention to move towards to paying via apps (linked or not to bank accounts)...
So simpsons did it, at least until China goes on with nationwide integration and adoption...
(From a US citizen point of view this might be strange, but it is normal when US market is still based on cash and credit cards. Also do not overlook the fact that in US magnetic strips are still in use. And all these because the big financial services providers in US accept the risk of using old technologies rather than moving forward.)
...more Government Paradise. Now every transaction can be tracked. Those who buy the Super Emperor get that fact dished up next time they goof up at work. I do agree that hackers will love this, one flaw in the app and plenty can be compromised. I wonder what is needed to create an account? An address? A bank account? Scan of a photo ID? Asking otherwise, how easy will it be to get a cheap prepaid, hook it up to a bogus or stolen account, and then clean out shelves at stores without ever having to pay? Currently, if someone walks out of a store without paying good security will notice that. If walking out of the store without physically paying is the norm, how easy would it be to fake a successful QR scan and walk out? Also, how easy is it to tamper with the QR codes? Move a few blocks to a different spot and put a sticker over the original sign...sure, still paying the store money, but instead of 299 it is now 2.99.
You need a bank account for your pay check. I can't recall any companies other than the day laborer services that still pay in cash. Those who insist on not having a bank account are those who want to skip alimony payments. Otherwise it isn't as easy to claim that you only make 20k/year when it really is 120k.
You need a bank account for your pay check.
Since when?
A check is a financial instrument. Upon that check is the name of a bank. That bank must honor its financial instruments. Take the check to that bank. If they wont turn it into cash, call the police.
If your employer insists on direct deposit, call your State labor board because thats probably not legal in your State. State labor laws are quite specific about things.
"His name was James Damore."
ONLY apps can app apps, NOT LUDDITE currency!
Apps!
China could pull it off if it weren't for the sort of poor remote societies in Western China.
Besides, after India decided to demonetize and reap benefits out of it, China, who were criticizing India about it - suddenly decided that, for once, India were doing it right.
Those who insist on not having a bank account are those who want to skip alimony payments.
Nice strawman, fuckface. Go off yourself.
Bitcoin would like to have a word with you.
Bitcoin is not different in any way. Was that your point? Because if not, ROFL.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I don't get what you are angry about? China big brother and western big brother is not mutually exclusive. One does not need to object to one and be an advocate of the other just because shcle does not mention the other. This topic is about China, so what's the matter with you?
"Cashless" society" means that 3% of the entire economy goes to Visa/MC. It would be the largest corporate handout in history.
I don't respond to AC's.
Those who insist on not having a bank account are those who want to skip alimony payments.
Nice strawman, fuckface. Go off yourself.
Actually, he has a point. I worked in payroll over a decade and that was the large majority of them.
China has barely implemented a slightly functional credit card system. As with most stories from there, don't believe 99% of it. And of course its all about tracking people, not helping them.
And some white people have a thing for Chinese.
Had a college roommate that was Chinese crazy. Only dated Chinese women. He was from rural west Texas, white, about 6ft tall, fit.
There are beautiful women all over the world, including China.
The only way I know to prevent govt and huge corporation from violating my privacy is to deny them data, or at least make it harder to capture. Using electronic payments gives them more data than I'd like.
As for cash or trackable payments, give me cash. It is a privacy thing. Govts love cashless, traceable, payments. Data wants to be free. It will be leaked either to the world or to entities we would rather NOT have it.
Your insurance company will buy data from your cashless payment vendor about everything car related that you purchase. Same for your car loan bank. Not buying oil or oil changes every 3 months means you aren't taking care of your vehicle in the way they might demand. If you buy new tires every year, chances are that you are burning rubber more than they like, unsafe driver. Your rates go up. Sure, there are other explanations - nails, bad luck, whatever, but a pattern is a pattern in data. They will make the best profit decisions possible with the available data.
Your health insurance provider will get a list of everything health/food/exercise related. They will also see that you bought a fitness tracker and look for that data (for a price) from the vendor. They are trying to gather more data than they can legally ask for directly from you, hoping to increase profits.
It's impossible to walk out of the store without paying. I have not used cash for 6 months and only use wechat and alipay for every single purchase. I'll run through each of the payment mechanisms:
1. Small Shop
you take the goods, ask how much it costs, they say 24 rmb, you scan their qr code and type 24 press send and then the sellar hears 24rmb read out aloud by their phone. If not. You show them the purchase ok your phone.
2. Buying in a slightly larger store
You click onto the pay screen in either alipay or wechat. Every 15 seconds a new bar code is generated. The seller scans the items, scans your phone, money is automatically deducted from your account. Very similar to credit card transactions
3. Buying train tickets / stuff online
Select on the app, select alipay, opens up alipay. Click ok
4. Sending money to a friend
Scan their qr code from their phone, type in amount you want to send
Pretty much you can buy everything, it's really hard to get ripped off by anyone and it's available everywhere. Even some of the beggars now have Alipay/wechat
Tell the military it is illegal to require DD, only way to get your military pay for over 30 years has been direct deposit.
That is what the Chinese government wants you to believe. Instead of a high prison population, they have a high number of executions. I have a hard time believing that is better.
You are much more likely to be executed by the Chinese government than the US government. The Chinese government refuses to actually release information on who and how many people are executed. It is believed that it could be as high as 12,000 people per year.
In addition, China's official prison population of approximately 1.5 million people only includes prisoners sentenced by the ministry of justice. China does not release information on how many people are in houses of detention (short term hold without trial), detention centers (people in prison without trial), or labor camps (which apparently were ended in 2013) . It is believed that at least 600,000 people are in detention centers putting the total prison population above the US, although still lower per capita (although we don't know the full number).
China doesn't only execute for violent crimes either. Fraud, drug trafficking, and corruption are capital offenses.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China
Are preparing to face the reality that every aspect of their money and monetary systrm is about to be completely controlled by a supremely corrupt and disengenuous government. I'm all for alternative pay methods, I love me some Apple Pay, but going cashless is sheer stupidity (equally stupid is backing cash with figments of the imagination drawn from thin air). Not a good idea.
In the US if we tracked what people spend we would find that many spend more than they possibly can explain and have some sort of tax avoidance or crime going on. if spending data is tracked and weighed against earnings reported as well as expenses on credit cards and loans we will have to find a way to deal with tens of millions of criminals. For example, there are people who make a living burglarizing automobiles. They sell what they steal and have no way at all to account for how they get by in life. With automated payments being the exclusive way to purchase these folks can be rounded up rather quickly. It also means that those that purchase stolen goods can also be caught quite easily. My personal guess is that more than half of adult Americans have some illegal activities going on from time to time. Can you imagine an illegal bookmaker trying to explain his income? Can you imagine the guy that makes illegal bets with that bookie trying to explain where his money went or came from? How about the girls in the strip clubs? Do you think they report most of their income? So just how can they explain their purchasing habits? You can not spend money you do not have. Where did the money come from? But the best question is can America survive without all the crime that goes on? Can we afford to catch, process and punish all the criminals? Can you imagine the horrors when some congregations learn exactly what their minister spends and earns? Can wives live with the strange transfers of money that the husbands spend on call girls or massage parlors? Can men stay married if they really can't cheat? Honesty might be viewed as an interesting problem.
Chinese people are free to travel abroad...... associate with whoever they want, live where they want
That......is not true at all. Associate with the wrong people, it becomes a black mark on your record. Whatever you do, don't try to hang out with those Falun Gong people.
Government doesn't care a shit if you buy bunny-fur bondage gear or pay strippers.
But it's convenient to have that information and be able to use it to blackmail and/or put pressure on someone if it's convenient for them. For example, threatening to let the wife know, or simply discrediting someone by exposing their furry hobbies to the public at large.
Besides which, you assume that just because something's legal now it won't be made illegal. Not because the government gives a damn about that issue in itself, but because- again- it's convenient to be able to hold these "crimes" over peoples' heads if necessary.
The more that is known about you, the more power government- or anyone else- has over you.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Are the true goal, and governments have been quite upfront about this. Do a search on the topic, and you will see why the desire to go cashless is about governments lamenting the fact that there is a 'floor' on interest rates. 0% is not low enough to manipulate the fiat currency the way they want to manipulate it, and by instituting negative interest rates, they can simply seize your money if you don't spend enough of it. No need to wonder about intentions as they are plainly stated.
They will run into severe security issues sooner or later. Especially mobile phone security is so bad these days it is staggering. My guess would be that at the moment, these payments do not offer enough pay-off if hacked, but that can change at any time.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
While many of them also benefit the general public (illegality of murder and so forth), laws are made by the wealthy for the wealthy. They serve the balance of citizens only when they don't conflict with the wants of the ruling-class. The fact that so much money is in the underground economy, is a good thing. Sure, there may be some government bribes mixed in, but most of it is people taking power from the government, and reserving it for themselves. A cab driver not paying taxes so that he can retain more of the money he earns for his family. Were he wealthier, he could simply have a loophole written for himself into the tax code. But, since he can't, this is how he tilts things in his own favor, ever so slightly. We all wring our hands about "tax cheats", but mostly when it's done by the working class. Apple stashes most of it's money overseas to avoid taxation, and they do it via the electronic payment system, so an eradication of cash simply means the working-class will find it harder to tilt the system in their favor. The wealthy will contain to avoid taxation. Cash is the last bastion of control that the non-wealthy have over their personal affairs, and the ruling-class HATES this. They want to be privvy to all. After all, if the colonist's could have had their wealth turned off by the King, we'd still be sipping tea at noon (or whenever).
Supporters of the ruling-class will love the notion of a cash-free society, and the working-class will resist it, as they should. Well, not all of them will. There's a large contingent of obedience-to-corruption even in the less affluent ranks. They've existed throughout history, though.
Once cashless happens, though, and negative interest rates kick in, even they will regret it, though it will be too late.
How do they expect people to not just walk out with goods? You can't put antitheft on everything. Next step is all stores replaced by vending machines and then the lines will just come back again anyway. Facial recognition for security cameras only work on white Europeans. On top of which, tech companies act like they can use AI to detect whether or not your a "risk," so good luck buying anything if you're just having a bad day. And by going cashless, your government can bankrupt you in a heartbeat because it's all just data. With no paper trail to use as evidence, can you imagine that argument with a bank teller, especially with the lame brains they hire now, if there's even going to be a human to talk to in the next few years?
Indeed. When recently the EU started phasing out 500 EUR bills "to fight terrorism", the lie was made immediately obvious when the Swiss National Bank made a statement that they a) saw no reason to phase out 1000 CHF notes (around 900 EUR) and that b) 1000 CHF bills had various legitimate use for example when buying a car with cash or when buying livestock.
The whole phasing out of cash is just an attempt to remove power from the citizens.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
who really carries cash anymore...
For any who think this would be a grand idea, consider how it can / will be abused.
Examples:
Every single purchase will be indexed and analyzed for whatever purpose. From the things you like, to the foods you eat, to hobbies you enjoy. Folks like Google have an orgasm every time they think about such a system. Make no mistake, it will be for sale / available to those with the funds for it and it will most certainly be used against you if / when the need arises.
Governments can effectively control your behavior because to step out of line in any way means they can just freeze your accounts and too bad if you have bills to pay or would like to eat this month. Perhaps you are identified in taking part in a protest they don't wish to see. Maybe they don't like your online opinions which run contrary to their own. Maybe you're a whistle blower. Etc. Etc.
Just KNOWING they can shut your life down by freezing your only financial means to survive will have a chilling effect on your behavior and you'll be far less likely to step out of line.
They want to watch and control every single aspect of your life at all times. What you watch, what you say / believe, down to how you act and think. Privacy of any kind does not mesh well with how they would prefer things to be.
You've read the above using your own government as a variable in the equation. Now replace your government with one that may not be quite as tolerant. Imagine what such a regime would do with this sort of system in place. You think you know what oppression is ? It would pale in comparison to what it will become.
Think of it as a Gorilla sized version of PayPal. Where if you do ANYTHING they disagree with, ( and the TOS can change with every new administration ) they simply shut off access to your funds. Only, this time, there isn't any alternative for you to fall back on and you're just SOL. Your life is effectively over until you agree to play the game by their rules. ( regardless if you agree with them or not )
I think I would prefer to keep the cash option available.
Only one misunderstanding that makes this a very different case. What is removed is physical cash only. Currency still exists, money still exists and can be used to transact so there's no pressure to find a replacement - except where that money isn't alowed to work. So we'll probably see something evolving for the black market but not in general.
Anonymity might be removed, too. This is fine as long as you work with (as in, for or pro) the system that has eyes on all purchases and transactions taking place.
For example if that system allows a certain amount of (big fish) criminal activity to take place in (or with, within) its currency (world), then it might not be a problem (for the system).
And this would or could actually be beneficial for said system (and its ruling elite and powerful huge fish). As then the big criminal fish are easily detected, and can be taught to play by the rules of the truly elite and powerful huge fish. Ie. their gas company gets suddenly taken over by the state, and they get imprisoned for treason. Things like that. Happens every few decades, and then it's all over in the news and foreign powers are suddenly mad and pissed that their lobbyist dogs are no longer in power.
The small fish and their petty criminal activity won't harm or endanger the huge truly elite and powerful fish. So for the system it's perfectly fine to allow certain amounts of criminal stuff going on within the national currency system.
But take away the anonymity of the small criminal fish, and they'll start trading in anonymous barter, instead of the currency published by the huge truly elite and powerful fish. This, however, enables the big criminal fish to trade with aforementioned same small criminal fish in ways that the truly elite and powerful fish can monitor nor control.
You see. It wasn't turtles but fish all the way down.
Truly elite powerful fish that announce inter-banking interest rates, print money, make poor suffering honest fish pay taxes, police them, etc down to big criminal fish to small criminal fish to poor suffering tax paying honest fish. Just like the food-chain. Like everything in nature.
It's beautifully evil.
(note, I'm indeed a scuba diver)
I agree completely -- except for your implication that anonymity is largely useful for criminal activities. Leaving aside the difference between crime and immorality, anonymity is an important cornerstone of free speech. As Snowden said, all serious sociopolitical change that has ever happened started with politically or socially incorrect speech being bandied about anonymously or privately. Democracy itself started as a illegal and socially unacceptable movement.The idea that the common man should hold the power of a nation was utterly toxic to yesterday's kings. You could be hanged for speaking of it. At that time if it were possible, as today, to so closely monitor the speech of the common man all progress would have halted. Which is indeed what our overlords today want to happen.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
Oh, absolutely. Don't worry. I want anonymity, encryption and all that for the same reasons Snowden needed it and free speech to flourish. But only if a currency allows it, will criminals use it. Similarly are the smarter criminals already increasingly using truly anonymous communication systems like OTR, Tor, etc.
Interestingly are the terrorist-criminals not using much of that. I guess that's because they calculate that they only need to stay alive until the moment they'll strike society. And if they'd use communication systems that don't disappear in the masses of normal-civil communications, then that could be dangerous for their sleeper-cell companions who'll strike later.
But selling and buying stolen goods? Stuff that matters? Tor, OTR, Bitcoin (or dodgecoin), etc. Of course.
Without cash, it gives the government, especially China, much easier access to private history of every single payment someone does. You might say, "so it's just like using credit card, so what's the difference?" The difference is that you now no longer have the *choice* of paying in cash.
Everything's traceable to a person's identity.
But it's convenient to have that information and be able to use it to blackmail and/or put pressure on someone if it's convenient for them. For example, threatening to let the wife know, or simply discrediting someone by exposing their furry hobbies to the public at large.
Does this actually happen? I've read such scary stories many times but I've yet to find examples of such behavior in the real world.
Really, is you are a serious political player then a sufficiently evil government is probably already watching all your actions through various means of surveillance. Otherwise this data is pretty much useless.
Besides which, you assume that just because something's legal now it won't be made illegal. Not because the government gives a damn about that issue in itself, but because- again- it's convenient to be able to hold these "crimes" over peoples' heads if necessary.
Well, don't commit crimes. Duh.
What many people don't realize or account for is the overhead and risk incurred by tracking and securing large quantities of cash, which can be up to 6% of revenue and is ultimately tacked on to the cost of goods. Cash is very expensive and time consuming once all factors including labor management and counting are added up. Those fees to payment processors can actually save time and money, reduce accounting complexity, and minimizes the opportunities for either theft or people putting their hand in the till. That said, there are many valuable reasons for cash to exist.
Sounds reasonable. You only 'maintain' something you own. If you have to make maintenance payments on something, it should have access to it. if you don't, you shouldn't make payments for it. Sometimes avoiding unjust, sexist, hypocritical demands is the right thing to do. There's nothing wrong with avoiding being made a slave. Nothing whatsoever.
Well, don't commit crimes. Duh.
Way to go to miss the point being made. Unless you genuinely *did* mean that you'd be the obsequiously-deluded type happy to avoid behaviour that people in free countries consider basic rights, but which have been criminalised in this case.
Not that the intention is that you're supposed to be able to follow them anyway, but that the government/regime can catch you in one of a million ways under laws that are impossible to follow.
I've no doubt that even under a non-maliciously written legal system in a free country, the vast majority of people commit multiple technical breaches of the law every day if you wanted to pry far enough.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Phasing out cash is a great tool for every totalitarian system.
China is not totalitarian. They are authoritarian. There is a difference.
As long as they don't challenge authority, Chinese people actually have greater freedom to go about their lives than Americans do: Americans are four times more likely to be arrested and incarcerated by their government.
China is currently genociding multiple populations of its own country. Spare us the pro-chink bullshit, k?
Mod parent up. Interesting that few other "developed" countries are even mentioned in the graphic.
Chinese people are free to travel abroad...... associate with whoever they want, live where they want
That......is not true at all. Associate with the wrong people, it becomes a black mark on your record. Whatever you do, don't try to hang out with those Falun Gong people.
You mean, just like associating with the brown people in the US of A?
Yes. For a while in the U.S. street people were using laundry detergent as currency since it was easy to carry and reasonably valuable.
The communist Chinese government is working to eliminate currency. Meanwhile, the price of Bitcoin is skyrocketing. Coincidence? I think not.
I suspect that the military have quite a few exemptions from normal employment laws.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Wow the assumption that only criminals don't want bank accounts. My crazy born again Christian aunt warned me about you specifically, and the tattooed code on the hand.
"big brother like surveillance"
Sorry, but we're already there. Credit cards (via Axxion, and others), Google, Apple, Amazon, your ISP... They ALL already know more about you and your habits and how to steer your preferences than most people believe possible. And they do.
"China is not totalitarian. They are authoritarian. There is a difference."
Perfect example when applied to 99% of a 'distinction without a difference.'
The other issue with phasing out cash - is that a lot of entrepreneurship grows out of the underground economy. Remember that HP and Apple started in a garage. The other issue is - that underground currencies evolve.
...more Government Paradise. Now every transaction can be tracked. Those who buy the Super Emperor get that fact dished up next time they goof up at work.
I do agree that hackers will love this, one flaw in the app and plenty can be compromised. I wonder what is needed to create an account? An address? A bank account? Scan of a photo ID? Asking otherwise, how easy will it be to get a cheap prepaid, hook it up to a bogus or stolen account, and then clean out shelves at stores without ever having to pay? Currently, if someone walks out of a store without paying good security will notice that. If walking out of the store without physically paying is the norm, how easy would it be to fake a successful QR scan and walk out? Also, how easy is it to tamper with the QR codes? Move a few blocks to a different spot and put a sticker over the original sign...sure, still paying the store money, but instead of 299 it is now 2.99.
Stealing? I bet the losses with paperless money yields a ten times lower rate of loss due to shoplifting than otherwise. You may need your cellphone to release an item from the display case. The analogy, look at how you purchase gasoline. The vendor trades electronic payment to armed robbery or guards the business from the clerk giving himself 2o gallons of gasoline without the dispensing being financially recorded.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
Cash is still king. You should have no less than 10,000 cash available to you in case there's a run on the bank, or such. If you don't, history shows us you can be wishing you did. Some people I know have over 50K. Not necessarily at their house. Your house is usually the first place they look.
From experience I can tell you, the ATM saying closed and the bank saying we're closed... and you tune into the radio to find out there's a crisis is no fun. This happened to me in the 1980s. Wife, kids, bills to pay, makes you real mad. Whatever is in your wallet may be what you have to use for months. I was lucky, I didn't lose any money. A few of my friends only recovered 10 cents on a dollar. I think some people didn't even get that. People that had their money in Old Court Savings and Loan.
Never let the government get rid of cash. It's too tempting to bullshit people. They will if they can. They'll play with the money and next thing you know, you can't do anything. No gas, food, etc. If it gets real bad, no electric.
The dildo in the article is so appropriate for this reason. No cash and you can get screwed good.
Having just got back from Shenzhen yesterday this is hilarious. I've never had to use cash more than there. At home in AU I never carry cash, I still have 250 RMB in my wallet from a week in Shenzhen.
I work in Beijing's Sanlitun area and spend money there on a daily basis (mostly for lunch), and I use either a deal coupon, which I do pay electronically, or cash. It is true that 99+% of all vendors in this (and some other) area are accepting e-payment, and for some (but certainly not all) shops, more than half of the customers now pay with their cell phone. However, it's utterly BS to claim that "no one in the area uses physical money". In fact, I challenge the author to name one single shop that hasn't had a cash customer in, say, three days.
Whether, when and how cash will eliminated is not for the retail industry to decide, but the (all mighty) Chinese government, which is very conservative, especially when it comes to financial policies (which is why fintech is one of the few sectors in China that is entirely dominated by private companies). I truly believe hell will freeze over before the Chinese government eliminates cash (and since I'm an atheist, that means never).
That's not an exception. It's a nullification.
It's simpler than that. If a central authority controls all payment, they can eliminate you simply by removing you from the system. You can't eat, you can't buy anything, you can't travel. you have no way to pay anyone.
There is no downside to not using "cash". It should be obsolete by now http://www.newser.com/story/18... The U.S. is behind the times http://news.slashdot.org/story... (We'll just need to increase cyber security)
That's a very good point too.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).