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Tesla Factory Reportedly Described As a 'Predator Zone' By Female Employees (theverge.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: Tesla's Fremont factory was described by a female employee as a "predator zone" of harassment in a meeting attended by dozens of employees, according to a bombshell report in The Guardian. Other women recalled being catcalled by male employees, feeling unsafe around male managers, and being subjected to sexist comments by their superiors, the report states. For months, The Guardian has been tracking the case of AJ Vandermeyden, a former Tesla engineer who sued the electric automaker for "unwanted and pervasive harassment." In her suit, Vandermeyden alleges that she and other female employees were denied promotions, paid less than their male peers, and retaliated against after making their concerns known to human resources. Several months after making her claims publicly, Vandermeyden was fired by Tesla.
Shame on you, misogynist scum. You support equal rights except when it comes to women. For women, it must be infringement of your freedom to expect you to treat them like equals and not sexually harass them.
Every time an individual or corporation becomes famous with some success, the FemiNazis attack trying to bring down the 'man.' It's disgusting.
bring in some Aliens to fight all of those Predators.
You should see what's going on at SpaceX. Women there are forced to build products shaped like penises. Oh my!
In other news, snowflakes melt at room temperature. Film at 11.
Nah!
Meh!
Send everyone to sensitivity training.
That almost never happens.
They better get to the choppa*!
* An all-electric "autopiloted" choppa of course.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
I'm looking forward to Elon announcing a coal fired Tesla in the near future
Clean America coal combined with American auto manufacturing. Putting America back on the map.
Sounds like there is lots of pussy to grab and he's a sexual predator.
"Several months after making her claims publicly, Vandermeyden was fired by Tesla." ... concluded her complaints were unmerited.
Oh the evil misogynist corporation trying to silence the victim?
No
She was fired because 'a neutral, third-party expert'
well who's going to wash my car now.
If you are criminally harassed, record and call the cops. For anything else consider that your safe zone doesn't extend past university campus, social studies faculty.
You mean like Wolves, Lions, Bears and shit? That's awful!
That always seemed to take care of predators in the movies?
Actually I just heard about a woman dying in some sort of automotive factory mishap. Maybe they could re-enact it for any male employees catcalling on the womenfolk?
Do that once or twice, especially if it is only their manhood and I am pretty sure those catcalls with stop, replacing by winces and self-crotch grabs.
Yes, I know Tesla is kind of a startup, but auto plants can be rough places in general. There's certainly no political correctness going on in the ones I've been in. Companies need to crack down on harassment, but singling out Tesla is hardly fair.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
I can imagine, all these female employee being groped/harassed by some invisible D-bag.
Elon Musk is a progressive Clinton supporter. So are most Silicon Valley VCs and CEOs. The fact that these people and companies are constantly mired in misogyny and harassment claims neither surprises, nor prompts denials from, conservatives and libertarians. Why should it? It's not surprising to us that progressives and male "feminists" harass women.
So, when you talk about "misogynist scum", you perhaps need to be a bit clearer who you're talking about.
Why build a factory in California? Build it where people are tougher!
Everywhere there are jobs to be had, especially good ones or newly created ones tend to attract all sorts of gadflies. Women claiming they were sexually harassed is one of those.
Dogs are naturally social animals, but if you starve them, they will fight each other for food & resources. It seems people aren't so different. Now that our corporate masters have moved the lower and middle classes to the kid's table, folks are fighting for the scraps.
This is just one common way women bring the noise "I was harassed!" What I'm actually *hearing* is "I want to get one of those jobs and keep it!" The sexual harassment being incidental until some better qualified person who happened to be male was willing to do the job for the same money. Then again, maybe there is just too much grabassery at Tesla. Given how these claims usually pan out, I doubt it, but it's possible.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it's more of a highway to someplace dangerous... perhaps then a Highway to the Danger Zone?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
When did Slashdot become a place of so much vileness, racism and misogyny?
Some of you guys have some serious problems.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Since recorded history, whenever an attractive lady walked past a construction zone or equivalent, the male workers hooted and hollered like a bunch of monkeys (which humans pretty much are for good or bad).
Multiple times I've rode to lunch with "white collar" workers, and they do the same when an attractive lady crosses the street, usually with the windows closed, which differs from the factory situation in that the lady usually doesn't hear it (or pretends not to).
Males are biologically horny and it would take a lot of effort and resources to outright stop them from showing it. I'm not condoning flirtatious behavior, only saying it's very economically expensive to curtail most of it and there's probably a point of diminishing returns. Society needs to decide how much enforcement and regulation should be applied to curtail it because the cost ain't free: court costs, firing, training, and policing it is a de facto tax on products and services.
I will agree that (uninvited) touching and outright rude remarks should be punished by probation or termination. But there's a lot of "soft" harassment, much of it subjective in terms of offensiveness. For example, there's a lot of middle ground between "You look very nice today", and "You look veeeery nice today."
Another thing is that if a lady doesn't want such attention, dress ugly, or at least non-sexual. It's quite possible to look professional without adding a sexual nature. Wear dark pantsuits or long loose-fitting skirts, mild or no lipstick, light makeup, hair up or a simple ponytail, and simple practical shoes. Of course there are a few exceptional ladies who look hot in anything, but that's rare outside of modelling agencies.
I've asked some attractively-dressed ladies why they dress provocatively and yet complain about harassment. Their answer is often hypocritical: "I'm okay when nice men flirt with me but not creeps". They want the upsides of attention but not the downsides. I have to call them on that: you can't have it both ways. For one, "creep" is subjective (as the election showed).
Society will probably have to compromise: men can tone it down and learn to be more subtle, and women can manage their attire better.
Table-ized A.I.
I already see a million comments from the crowd who dismisses all these complaints as "SJW BS." However, there is a pattern of startups ignoring bad behavior of some "rockstars." If proven to be true, that incident with Uber was pretty blatant -- having a female employee receive a request for...companionship...on her first day from her boss. I'm sure Tesla isn't far from its roots as a startup in terms of HR maturity either. They may be pretty far away from some one-trick phone app startup, but this is a culture thing that doesn't change unless there's external pressure to do so.
It doesn't even have to be a startup; I've worked at established companies where top salespeople get automatic passes on all the sexual harassment rules -- their management is willing to deal with the fallout to keep this salesperson producing. Watching some of these latent lawsuits in action is interesting, and the anti-SJW crowd can't just pretend it doesn't exist or that female employees receiving this treatment are all too sensitive. Whether it's the "neckbeard creeper" sort of stalking harassment, or the "ex-fratboy" overt kind -- if I were a woman I wouldn't be too happy with having to put up with either.
Yikes, so much wrong with this.
Title says "Tesla Factory Reportedly Described As a 'Predator Zone' By Female Employees", but the first sentence says "Tesla's Fremont factory was described by a female employee...". So which one is it? Plural is quite different from singular.
Then, there's the story (I'm not even gonna touch the Verge crap, we all know it's an identity politics rag at this point). Let's see.
The theme for this year’s International Women’s Day was “be bold for change” in the fight for a “more gender inclusive world” – but some at Tesla had a different plan for the day.
Five seconds in, and we already know the author is an "I know what's best for everyone" type keyboard warrior. This does not bode well for objectivity.
It was an opportunity for women to discover essential oils. A “health and wellness group” at the electric car company invited female staff members to an 8 March “lunch ‘n learn” about oils and how they can help improve people’s “health and happiness”, according to emails seen by the Guardian, which reveal that the proposed event was quickly met with vocal criticism.
Starting off great with some outrage that women were offered a 'lunch 'n learn' about oils. It's a well known fact that women don't like such things, that's why there's no market for female skin care products or wellness products. But hey, don't let a multi-billion dollar market get in the way of your feminism, you know what's best for everyone. Stay strong.
Tesla postponed the oils session. The company organized a town hall meeting on diversity for that day, which included six male executives and one woman, according to multiple attendees.
Note that there weren't 7 women executives attending, which is how a correctly diversified workplace should look. If they're all black, that's even more diverse. Diversity means fewer dicks in well-paid positions (but screw coal mining and construction, those places are dangerous!). Also note that this point is according to multiple attendees, but doesn't mention if Vandermeyden is included.
At the crowded meeting at the Fremont factory, women took the microphone one-by-one and shared stories of sexual harassment, mistreatment by male managers, unfair promotion decisions and more, sources said.
Now suddenly, "sources said". It's no longer Vandermeyden? The author doesn't mention other people coming forward here...
Vandermeyden, who attended the meeting, thought the outpouring of comments validated her own story.
Oh, I guess we're back to Vandermeyden.
Testimony from the town hall – along with internal emails from Musk, and Vandermeyden’s first interview since her termination – paint a picture of a company that has struggled to respond to mounting complaints about gender discrimination and has aggressively attempted to discredit a woman who publicly criticized it .
Testimony from the Town Hall... according to Vandermeyden? This is starting to sound very fishy. Almost as if there's only a single source for the "sky is falling" claims.
Musk was not at the meeting, which was attended by roughly 70-100 people, and featured comments from more than 20 women, according to Vandermeyden and another attendee.
Ahh, so there it is. Vandermeyden and another attendee. Wait, why is the other attendee only mentioned now? Does that mean that the other attendee only validated this one thing? That there were "more than 20" women attending?
One woman described parts of the factory as a “predator zone” for harassment. When the moderator asked women in the room if they had ever been catcalled, a significant number of women raised their hands, according to Vander
What pisses me off personally, as a man/male is that the world takes these allegation at face value without one FU...K shred of evidence. Women's advocate group goes boinkers backing these claims even though, NO EVIDENCE is there.
What, your a woman so that entitles you to automatically be a victim without any proof? Where's the equality in THAT?
Is automatically right because questioning her would be sexist
Or if you think that this will change their behaviour, a concealed mic and then come back with evidence.
Read some of the history of Fremont NUMMI when Toyota started their joint venture with GM. The plan was to have Toyota teach GM how to build cars the Japanese way, but what happened was the opposite. I think This American Life had a podcast talking about the open prostitution and drug dealing happening on the factory floor. PS, my Tacoma built at NUMMI is a complete disappointment. Completely rusted out roof within 10 years in drought stricken California.
"Musk was not at the meeting, which was attended by roughly 70-100 people, and featured comments from more than 20 women, according to Vandermeyden and another attendee. "
So no one could independently verify that 20 women actually made comments at this meeting, other than a Woman who is trying to sue Tesla over supposed discrimination, and some random, unnamed person? Those are what pass for sources enough to write an inflammatory article saying "DOZENS OF WOMEN CLAIM HARASSMENT" ?
When I spent some quality time at Tesla doing installation work, I was surprised by various workers at different pitches along the line loudly blasting hard core hip hop music that profanely objectified women (you know the type of lyrics I"m talking about). On one hand, I appreciated that Tesla let their very hard working employees listen to the music (and I really appreciated being able to eat free cereal while I worked on electronics out on the line). On the other hand, I found the lyrics of the music to be really offensive to women and not at all professional. Also, I was surprised there there seemed to be little concern for the safety implications of blasting loud music.
taking care of kids and making dinner not slaving away in a factory for menial wages. If 1/2 of the work force were to suddenly leave, the oligarchs controlling the factories would be forced to pay the remaining male workers more, who would be able to afford to keep the women at home and pregnant. This is the natural order of things.
It is not natural to have all the women folk working in factories while the state takes care of their children through subsidized health care, and noone can make a living wage because there is a surplus of workers.
To all those who call me a racist misogynist homophobic trump supporting nazi faggot, I would like to turn the tables on you. If a man came into a salon farting, talking loudly about sports, and smelling the women would rightly give the man the cold shoulder.
Leave the factories to men and dykes.
The other problem is that offense is in the eye of the beholder. A man can genuinely not mean to be offensive - legitimately just asking a pretty girl out on a date, and it can be (mis)interpreted as offensive behavior. Now you end up putting management in the position of trying to armchair quarterback male/female interactions - was this really harmful, demeaning, threatening behavior or is she just overreacting? Since there's usually very little disincentive to err on the side of believing the accuser, you end up with men who tread VERY carefully around female coworkers - which is itself considered a different form of sexism, since the women end up finding themselves excluded.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
Some women claim there's a lot of sexism and harassment at a company that just so happens to be in the news night and day and set to make money hand over fist in the very near future... but hardly a peep do I hear about the car companies in Detroit or Chicago...
The cynic in my head is saying that some combination of these things may be true:
1. These women are full of themselves (evidence: they wanted to work at a big exciting fresh and flush company instead of boring old Ford) and are taking the mildest of comradely banter and/or criticism as though it were bone-deep psyche shattering Hannibal-Lecter-tier gas lighting and abuse.
2. These women are trying to extort and/or blackmail money from Tesla and Musk
3. It turns out that diversity in the workplace isn't all that great in practice...
4. The fact that these stories keep coming up in a fashion similar to the false rape allegations flung against people like Bill Cosby makes it seem like #2 is very likely. As Merk42 pointed out above, Vandermeyden was already proven to be full of shit.
Rules to work by:
1) Don't be an asshole.
2) Particularly don't be an asshole if there's a power-relationship involved (such as superior/subordinate).
Adhering to these rules might go a long way towards creating stable work environments. Perhaps another rule is appropriate:
3) Play outside of work.
Considering there was no Representative Democracy that included large portions of the population until the end of the 18th C and now republics, in one form or another, are the norm
You seem to correlate representative democracy with republican form of government. UK and Belarus are laughing at such idea.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
But skeptics and physicists need evidence and proof, not proclamation. The Aether was proclaimed to be real. Turned out not so much.
Well, that wouldn't be sexist if they invited the male employees to a seminar on deodorants and aftershaves...
Your theory that it's some kind of inherent property of male humans is undermined by the fact that it's far less prevalent in some cultures. Those cultures don't seem to be burdened by this additional cost.
Incidentally they also tend to have more women in industries like construction.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Fuck off cunt.
If the female workforce realizes this door swings both ways.
Some of the male population will refuse to interact with their female counterparts because, in this day and age, it takes only an accusation ( true or otherwise ) to destroy your career.
So ladies, when you walk about the workplace and it feels like everyone is ignoring you, now you know why.
Yes: what percentage of the "predation" cited in this complaint is really being asked out by a socially unsure, nerdy man the complainant considers below her station?
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It wasn't a blonde bombshell was it?
http://www.bizjournals.com/san...
An "engineer" with no engineering degree. Tesla put her in the position above more qualified people and now she's complaining.
How much of this actually is a problem and how much of it is just gold-digging (aka the current-day version of the McDonald's scalding coffee)?
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Some women lie. To be fair, people in general lie. I have a friend who told me that during a recession, one woman accused him of harassment because she was vying for his position. The co's trim policy let staff go in order hiring, and he had seniority over her. Thus, to increase her chances of survival, she tried to frame him. I know for sure she wasn't his type, so I believe him.
Table-ized A.I.
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Example cultures? I realize in some cultures women have much more social power than one typically sees, and that could indeed change the dynamics. But that's because women there have a proverbial big stick. A big enough stick can re-shape just about ANY behavior. I'm talking general tendencies. Being a male myself, I can vouch we, er, I think way too much about...um..."romance", especially when younger. It can be tamed, but takes a lot more power than other emotions/instincts.
Table-ized A.I.
It'd be great to hear from the handful on English literate, non western slashdotters. I have a friend (who's a mom) and she's from Russia. She says Americans are too up tight, we need to flirt more at work, etc.
For the record, I believe that anyone who unilaterally messes with anyone at work ought to be sensored or fired. Including the gay guy who was jokingly hitting on me.
I can't be the only one who thought she accidentally walked in on Jean-Claude Van Damme working out, right?
Males are biologically horny
So are women. The idea that it's men is a construct of this society. Others, such as ancient Greece considered women to be the uncontrollably horny ones.
Society needs to decide how much enforcement and regulation should be applied to curtail it because the cost ain't free: court costs, firing, training, and policing it is a de facto tax on products and services.
Unless it has the opposite effect of more women in productive jobs (i.e. larger overall pool of workers) in which case the tax will be negative.
Another thing is that if a lady doesn't want such attention, dress ugly, or at least non-sexual. It's quite possible to look professional without adding a sexual nature. Wear dark pantsuits or long loose-fitting skirts, mild or no lipstick, light makeup, hair up or a simple ponytail, and simple practical shoes.
Guys: wear a sharp suit. Feemales uglify yourself because it's YOUR fault if horndogs can't control their actions like civilised people. Oh and tough on you if dressing well tends to help with career advancement. Double tough if the dress code requires high heels.
I've asked some attractively-dressed ladies why they dress provocatively and yet complain about harassment. Their answer is often hypocritical: "I'm okay when nice men flirt with me but not creeps".
I'd say that kind of puts you into the creep end of things: what's really creepy is those people who can see other people's boundaries but willfully violate them. These ladies it seems would rather people like that didn't (for example) keep pushing the flirting after being shut down. You are basically saying it's not OK, and just fine for those creepy guys to keep pushing.
Society will probably have to compromise: men can tone it down and learn to be more subtle, and women can manage their attire better.
Maybe you should just beat off on the regular so you don't get a boner whenever you atch a glimpse of ankle.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
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Dude, there's literally nothing right or correct in what you posted.
People who harass other people are the ones at fault, full-stop, period. I don't care how the people they were harassing were dressed, the instant one party decided to impose themselves on the other party, they were in the wrong.
You are trying to tell people how to dress and groom themselves. You think, somehow, that your opinion on what they should wear should be important to them.
There is no compromise. If you can't restrain yourself from behaving inappropriately in a given situation when it comes to respecting another person's bodily autonomy or commenting inappropriately on their appearance, the problem is YOU, not them, period.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
My issue with asking out/being asked out by coworkers is that it puts the person being asked out into an awkward situation, and that isn't fair to inflict on a person in a workplace.
The person being asked out now has to spend time thinking about something they may not have been thinking about before, they may be stressed out about how a rejection might be handled by the other party, they may be worried about how accepting will make them look to other co-workers, and a whole host of other concerns.
Over the course of my career, I've been asked out by co-workers a number of times. My standard response is a polite but firm no, along the lines of "thanks, but I don't mix work and dating." 90% of the time, they accept the no and everything is cool, maybe some bruised feelings but nothing major. 10% of the time it has made things toxic due to them behaving poorly (spreading rumors, insulting or attacking me/my ideas far more aggressively than is merited, in one case the person literally turned around and went to our manager and demanded that I be moved to another team because they found me unbearable to work with (no joke, like, literally 2 minutes after asking me out they contacted our manager and, despite how absurd it was, it wound up becoming a whole "thing").
As a result of that 10%, if I get asked out by a co-worker, I now worry about whether or not the rejected party will be an adult about it, which causes stress, and was not stress I had to worry about until they decided to share with me their interest. I do not want to inflict that kind of stress on another person, so I don't ask my co-workers out while I'm still their co-worker.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
To put their company in America.
Remember when people were happy to have a job even if it meant plunging to your death building Hoover dam.
Pepperridge farms does, Other countries do too.
No, you are wrong.
Men, in general, need to grow up and act like men and not teenage boys.
Sure I notice beautiful women when I see them but I keep my mouth shut and treat them with respect. Just because they are pretty does not mean they can not be brilliant at their jobs. It also doesn't mean that they can not be friends and trusted co-workers.
In other words, learn to act like a gentleman and not like an oversexed teenager or I am sorry to say like the current president of the the US.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Males are biologically horny
So what? There's a little thing called impulse control. I'm female and I sometimes get turned on when I see an attractive guy. That doesn't mean I wolf-whistle or holler at him or treat him as a purely sexual object.
And telling women how to dress is just not on... that's the bailiwick of regressive religions and burkas. I dress to be comfortable, and if it's hot, then yeah, my clothes are light and more flesh is exposed than would be by a guy. But I do it to be comfortable, not for the benefit of anyone else. I'm certainly not looking for attention from guys.
Nobody knows. But I don't think anyone would consider a polite date request by a coworker to be predatory, just so long as the coworker accepted the response (whatever it was) graciously.
I see nothing wrong with asking a coworker out just so long as there's no power imbalance. Two coworkers on the same team? Fine. Two people in separate departments? Fine. A supervisor asking a subordinate out? Not fine... the power imbalance makes it improper.
For regular women yes, but axe-grinding feminists don't think like "anyone." All men are predators.
It's quite possible to look professional without adding a sexual nature. Wear dark pantsuits or long loose-fitting skirts, mild or no lipstick, light makeup, hair up or a simple ponytail, and simple practical shoes.
Guys: wear a sharp suit. Feemales uglify yourself because it's YOUR fault if horndogs can't control their actions like civilised people. Oh and tough on you if dressing well tends to help with career advancement. Double tough if the dress code requires high heels.
Maybe in your righteous anger you didn't notice that the dress code OP proposed for women is actually equivalent to the "sharp suit" and not "uglifying". Not that I agree with OP, but I do see the difference between sexualizing garments and professional ones. I don't know a factory dress code that requires high heels, but I'd call it sexist if it did. Things men don't get to wear but women do though, at work: tight form-revealing yoga pants, deep cut tops, sleeveless shirts, short skirts. Then they are offended that "the creeps*" look where they don't want them to.
*)How not to be a creep: be good looking and tall.
Typical factory workers have a high school diploma at most, more often a GED, and might have gone to a community college to get a technical certificate for a skill like welding. They are generally males in their mid-late twenties, alcohol problems, former military, and talk shit all day long. In other words, they represent "bro" culture. Not many women can cope with that type of co-worker. Usually the ones that do grew up with older brothers or simply developed thick skin regarding harassment. It's really just a culture clash, good luck trying to get the guys to change, it would be the same as trying to get women to stop wearing makeup despite guys considering it sexual harassment against men.
History written by men.
I believe there's a difference between "sexual" clothing and "sharp" clothing. Women can also wear professional "sharp" clothing without it being sexual.
True, that may happen, but where's the tipping point? That's what I'm asking. Policing/courts/prevention/training/firing has a cost to companies. It's not clear the benefits outweigh the costs.
They didn't necessarily define "creepy" as "pushy", which seems to be your interpretation. Overall, if they personally like somebody they seem to like the sexually-implied attention and if they don't like the person they don't like the sexually-implied attention. They want to use/enjoy the attention when it suits them (no pun intended) but complain when it doesn't. Again, it appears they want it both ways, which I find unrealistic.
If you put honey out, you'll get both bees and flies. If you only want bees but not flies, you are kidding yourself. Just don't put honey out, period.
Table-ized A.I.
You're shitting me?
I've been accused of sexism for holding a door open for someone. You can't fucking imagine the response had I hated myself enough to ask her out.
. If you can't restrain yourself from behaving inappropriately in a given situation when it comes to respecting another person's bodily autonomy or commenting inappropriately on their appearance, the problem is YOU
Woman: Oh, I like your shoes. Woman 2: oh, thank you!
Me: Oh, I like your shoes. Woman 2: Fuck off, creep!
So who's the sexist shit in this scenario? The problem isn't me, the problem is oblique sexist societal rules that make no fucking sense whatsoever and if you expect me to comply then the issue is with you and those fucked up rules and not me.
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So, a car-company has manly-men who don't co-mingle with woman in the way that women might want. Is anyone surprised? How about a mechanic? Or a car demolition shop? Or just about any grease-monkey job anywhere throughout history?
Why is it a surprise that men, around other men, working with their muscles, tend to have their blood flooring predominantly through their muscles? It's not diplomacy, and it's not politics. It's auto-repair.
It's dirty, it's hot, it's stinky, it's ugly, it's dangerous, and it's full of tools. Same goes for the language used, the personalities apparent, and the men themselves.
Walk into the mud, and you'll get dirty. I, for one, chose a job out of the mud.
Lots of good points, don't have mod points, so go those who do: please mod up.
History written by men.
So in other words not actually accurate on the topic in question? That kinda supports my point, so are we in agreement?
I believe there's a difference between "sexual" clothing and "sharp" clothing. Women can also wear professiona
Please consider my reply in context of the post I was replying to.
They didn't necessarily define "creepy" as "pushy", which seems to be your interpretation
I was defining creepy as intentionally violating boundaries.
Everybody enjoys attention from people they like, and everyone dislikes attention from people that creep them the fuck out. Stop pretending this is somehow a gendered issue.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
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Or just call it what it is. Trying to win the lottery with sexual harassment claim. Just like they tried to squeeze Bill Cosby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Listen to it. You can't make this up. Somehow that trial ended up in a deadlock? HOW? Was someone asleep the entire trial or just an imbecile or idiot?
If people are telling you "fuck off, creep!" when you compliment their shoes, and doing so regularly, then maybe the problem IS you.
Really, though, the situation you described had nothing to do with what I wrote, so I have no idea why you bring it up. I intentionally said commenting inappropriately. If someone turns into a raging asshole because someone commented innocently and non-creepily on their shoes, that's on them.
That some people may respond badly to completely non-creepy compliments does not make it AOK to suggest that women are at fault for "dressing sexy" and being told how they should dress because men are, according to the person I responded to, really not responsible for their behavior when they see an attractive woman and it's kind of the woman's fault.
I never said I expect you (or anyone) to comply with "oblique sexist societal rules" - I said, and I think I said it pretty fucking clearly, that I expect people to restrain themselves and behave appropriately in a given situation. Note that I said PEOPLE. As in, no particular gender.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Because your reply to me seemed to indicate that one of your points was 'unrelated to the argument'.
Your words, not mine. Or have you already forgotten?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Sorry, the correct quote was 'unrelated to the discussion at hand'...
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Your other replies are not clear, so I'm skipping a counter reply.
Well, that probably does NOT match the definition used by the women I interviewed (described earlier).
That might be true, but if the tension is between a male and a female, it's often classified as "sexual harassment". If a "jerky" guy is bothering another guy, it doesn't (yet) have some special societal category. It's merely "being a jerk".
In one case one office guy kept proselytizing his damn religion to me. If I complained to HR about him, he'd probably just get a simple warning. Usually not so with "sexual" encroachment claims: there would be a bigass investigation.
Table-ized A.I.
This is so obviously just that one angry ugly lesbo chick getting publicity for her bullshit case. I certainly hope she is not a reflection of most women in tech. She's just trying to game the system for her own advantage. Probably someone at the company pissed her off and this is the result.
What I find sad is not so much how women seem to circle the wagons despite a complete lack of evidence but that there are so many male turncoat white knight types who will no doubt automatically side with them despite not even being wanted over there. Women like this stoke the flames and encourage the inherent animosity between the sexes. I'm all for Make Love Not War but if women want to fight against the other 50% of the population that's fine. I know which side I'm on.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
You miss my point: It's fucking impossible to know what 'behave appropriately' means. The rules are oblique, impenetrable and constantly fucking changing.
So fuck you and your normative behavioural focus. Society doesn't have any fucking consistency, people are therefore going to get it wrong, and you can just fucking deal with it.
In short: Stop judging people for failing to obey your arbitrary changeable unpublished inconsistent rules.
Well, that probably does NOT match the definition used by the women I interviewed (described earlier).
Your definition was unclear, and besides I'm talking about what people generally find creepy in the most general possible terms rather than a specific list of behaviours.
That might be true, but if the tension is between a male and a female, it's often classified as "sexual harassment".
Sometimes incorrectly perhaps, but mostly sexual harassment is not merely about the genders of the participants. A boss being a dick is a dick. A poss propositioning an employee on day 1 is sexual harassment.
In one case one office guy kept proselytizing his damn religion to me. If I complained to HR about him, he'd probably just get a simple warning. Usually not so with "sexual" encroachment claims: there would be a bigass investigation.
So?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I'm not here to debate the general meaning of "creepy"; that's mostly off-topic. I tried to get clarity myself when I interviewed the mentioned ladies. To recap, there did not seem to be any "external" objective standard about what flirting-like behavior they liked and didn't like from a guy: it depended heavily on whether they personally liked the person presenting such activities. That explained the seeming contradiction of their potentially provocative fashion and their complaints about "creeps".
In their minds, the upside of the welcomed flirt-resembling behavior seemed to outweigh the downside of the UNwelcomed flirt-resembling behavior of those they didn't PERSONALLY like (AKA, "the creeps"). This "model" is consistent with the results of my interviews, and accurately mirrors their complaints and fashion choices. I don't claim it's definitive evidence, but does explain well the observations and conversations I had with them. If you have a better behavior model to explain these conversations and fashion choices, I'd like to see it.
Based on that model of their reasoning process, their behavior is morally hypocritical in my opinion. They CAN do something about most of the unwanted attention, but choose not to because they like the social upsides enough.
I hope that's clear now. If I make it any clearer, I'll have to charge you a technical documentation fee.
So there is more than one way to be an asshole. Furthermore, if a lady (or "target"?) happens to be attracted to the boss, she may enjoy the "propositioning" and not complain (or later complain for money alone due to greed). Thus, it's not the mere act by itself that determines if she is "bothered" by the activity.
Table-ized A.I.
what are those culture ?
I'm not here to debate the general meaning of "creepy"; that's mostly off-topic.
Well you are debating it and it's kind of central to the topic.
To recap, there did not seem to be any "external" objective standard about what flirting-like behavior they liked and didn't like from a guy: it depended heavily on whether they personally liked the person presenting such activities.
No, that's recapping your understanding it not mine. Here's the thing. Everyone has boundaries and they vary person to person, generally based on who they like. A person may be entirely happy to have hugs from some selected close friends, but very very strongly dislike identical behaviour from strangers. This is true for more or less everyone and here's the thing, you can't "logic" it away. No amount of reasoning is going to make someone hot who doesn't know you want a great big hug from you.
Now what the real essence of creepyness is the willingness to knowingly violate someone's boundaries. That includes unwanted hugs, unwanted touching and unwanted flirting. And it applies no matter what that person is wearing.
Now I expect to be able to dress nicely of an evening to appear attractive to the people I want to attract (a somewhat limited scope these days). I also expect people to not persist in bothering me because I'm wearing nice clothes and they want to.
If I make it any clearer, I'll have to charge you a technical documentation fee.
It was never unclear, and no matter how clear you make it I'm unlikely to agree because I disagree with the premise.
Thus, it's not the mere act by itself that determines if she is "bothered" by the activity.
Not everyone's bothered by getting stuff nicked.That doesn't make theft not a crime.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I agree that a power imbalance is a huge problem, 100% of the time - that is wholly and completely unacceptable, period.
The issue with even peers is, like I said, unless you know the other person reasonably well, you don't know what their experience has been when stuff like that has come up for work and without that knowledge, you're potentially putting them in a very uncomfortable situation.
I've been asked out on the first day at a job, which says to me that the person doing the asking had zero idea of what appropriate workplace behavior is, and probably didn't really grok that whole "human interaction" thing very well. At a bar, sure, ask someone out after barely getting to know them, since that's kind of the point of a bar for many people, but a job? That's a hard no.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
"Knowingly" is not necessarily clear to the other side. People often send mixed signals, even if there is an attraction. A good many social "transactions" are not clear cut.
Table-ized A.I.
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Nah, I got your point, I just think it's wrong. I think you're angry (holy shit are you angry) because your brain doesn't do one of the things that primate brains are good at doing, which is handle social cues and contexts.
Engage your rational brain for a second and ask yourself this: if the rules are "constantly changing" and "oblique" and "impenetrable" then how does most everyone else seem to know what they are? Do you think we all get a memo?
The answer is, we do not. Just the part of our brain that handles social cues and contexts seems to work better in ours than it does in yours. Instead of recognizing that fact and either developing or compensating for it, you instead choose to get angry. Which is totally your right, but please don't expect to be taken seriously when you start screeching and demanding that everyone else change just because you can't keep up.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Instead of recognizing that fact and either developing or compensating for it, you instead choose to get angry.
I get angry because people seem to think that I'm the one with the fucking issue here, purely because they've adapted to cope with the stupidity.
I'm the one that gets yelled at or ostracised for failing to pick up these social cues, or for withdrawing entirely from specific social activities as a means of compensating and developing strategies to deal with it.
I get told off for not being aggressive enough in meetings. I speak up, I get told off for not listening. I listen, I get told off for not being assertive enough. I state my case assertively, I get told off for being arrogant. I build concensus, I get told off for not being aggressive enough.
That's just the last three years.
The irony is that I am now fucking awesome at managing and contributing in meetings because I've had to learn so much theory, maintain self awareness while putting it in practice and constantly evaluate and modify my own behaviour and performance.
That's hard fucking work and I still keep getting told I have to change. And you wonder why I get angry? Fuck that.