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The Rise Of The Contract Workforce (npr.org)

An anonymous reader shares a report: A new NPR/Marist poll finds that 1 in 5 jobs in America is held by a worker under contract. Within a decade, contractors and freelancers could make up half of the American workforce. Workers across all industries and at all professional levels will be touched by the movement toward independent work -- one without the constraints, or benefits, of full-time employment. Policymakers are just starting to talk about the implications.

[...] It's not just business driving the trend. Surveys show a large majority of freelancers are free agents by choice. John Vensel is a contract attorney at Orrick who grew up a few miles from Wheeling, on the other side of the Pennsylvania state line. In his 20s, he was a freelance paralegal by day and a gig musician by night. "I actually wanted to be a rock star," he says. But these days there are no edgy vestiges of a former rocker, only a 47-year-old family man cooing over cellphone photos of his children, Grace and Gabe. In the two decades in between, Vensel worked full-time corporate jobs. But he was laid off in 2010, on the eve of his graduation from his night-school law program. He graduated with huge piles of debt, into one of the worst job markets. For a time, Vensel commuted three hours round-trip to a full-time job in Pittsburgh. But more recently, he quit and took up contracting to stay near home in Wheeling.

127 of 229 comments (clear)

  1. Glad I'm retiring soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've worked hard, lived below my means, and saved ferociously for two decades now and I'm getting ready to retire with a 7 digit investment portfolio in a year or two before I'm 50. I feel sorry for the young people just entering the workforce, what a different scenario they will be facing with the Republican destruction of the social contract and delivering all power to corporate America. It's a much more lopsided equation than it used to be. As my late dad used to say, BOHICA. Bend Over Here It Comes Again.

    1. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by houstonbofh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The social contract has been deteriorating for a long time, and it was not only republicans doing it. Loyalty from both sides (employers/employees) has faded to almost nothing now. A friend and I were working the same job in 2000. He is still there and has more vacation then he is allowed to take, and good money. But I have time off whenever I want and also good money. Contracting works for me!

    2. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by youngone · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Your link to the John Birch Society is informative, but pretty much agrees with the A/C above.

      Founder Robert W. Welch Jr., Fred C. Koch

      Who funds the Tea Party side of the GOP? Koch Industries.
      Just a bunch of self interested billionaires spewing endless propaganda.

    3. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Loyalty from both sides (employers/employees) has faded to almost nothing now.

      This has been going on for a LOOOONG time.

      At least a couple of decades ago, I realized that there was no loyalty of the employer to the employee.

      The W2 employee is JUST as readily fired/let go as the 1099 contractor.

      I figured, hey, if you have the job security of a contractor, you might as well get the bill rate of a contractor.

      Just make sure to incorporate yourself...makes life easier.

      I went the S-Corp route, never looked back.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How cute. He actually believes unions care about him beyond his dues and adding a head to the collective threat of a strike...

    5. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by AlanBDee · · Score: 1

      Congratulations on achieving financial independence but I fail to see how it's only the Republican fault that the wealth gap has increased. I can't even lay the blame on both parties because the global economy allows the wealthy more avenues to maximize their assets.

      I also fail to see why people entering the workforce today can't follow the same process. Live below your means, save like a bandit, and assume the government is incompetent and rely on them as little as possible. The recipe works. If the economy tanks to the point that it doesn't then we all have bigger problems then how much is in our portfolio.

    6. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I was a Union Steward for my local and I can tell you from personal experience that the only benefit Unions have provided for the last 3 decades at least is at the local level. The National office preyed on us constantly sucking money out of us while they whored around on "working" vacations in Puerto Rico and Hawaii. The top level of the big unions is so corrupt it's indescribable. We struggled to pay for arbitration fees while they jetted around like kings. That is the reason the Unions are dying.

    7. Re: Glad I'm retiring soon by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Neither do the vast majority of unions. Every single one of the large unions has been caught red handed in some kind of corruption scheme -- AFL-CIO, CWA, UAW, Teamsters -- you name it. That last one also felt a sense of accomplishment for holding their ground when they forced hostess into bankruptcy, and the union boss talked it up as a victory even though all of the workers lost their jobs while he went home still having a fatter paycheck than those workers ever dreamed of.

      Unions in Europe are decent, (notice that they don't have mafia ties, unlike US unions) but you have to be pretty damn native to think US unions give a shit about you. All they care about are the dues you pay them, which merely has a side effect of them wanting more members. That includes things like forcing your employer to make you work less efficiently (this does NOT mean less work) so that another person must be hired, and occasionally lobbying for more pay so that their slice of your income is bigger.

    8. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I considered it worth it because at the local level most outfits have stewards and officers that care about their members. I successfully arbitrated many cases and forced management to abide by the contract but our ability to litigate was severely curtailed by lack of support and often outright hindrance from the National and Regional office. We could have done much better with a real union at the upper level.

    9. Re: Glad I'm retiring soon by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I mostly agree with you but without the parasites at the top it could be so much better.

    10. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      no, the unions are dying because the powerful hate competition and want us to return to the turn of the century (100+ yrs ago) where we were LITERALLY wage *slaves*.

      unbalanced power is what they crave and enjoy. unions help balance that power. normies like you and I don't 'deserve' to be able to bargain equally. cops, sure, they're allowed to have unions (why?? why do they deserve them but normies don't? that right there shows you its not ALL bad, with unions; but that they don't want US to have equal bargain power).

      its just that simple.

      corruption is EQUAL at corp and union, but that's the point! I'd rather have 2 gorillas fight than one of them fighting ME.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    11. Re: Glad I'm retiring soon by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      Neither do the vast majority of unions. Every single one of the large unions has been caught red handed in some kind of corruption scheme -- AFL-CIO, CWA, UAW, Teamsters -- you name it. That last one also felt a sense of accomplishment for holding their ground when they forced hostess into bankruptcy, and the union boss talked it up as a victory even though all of the workers lost their jobs while he went home still having a fatter paycheck than those workers ever dreamed of.

      Uh, bullshit. Hostess union accepted cut after cut after cut jackass, to keep the union afloat. Because unlike corporate executives, the long term welfare of the union is dependent on the company's well being. As opposed to the corporate executives who DGAF if they run the company into the ground, if they make millions in bonuses in the process, secure millions in golden parachutes, and make millions more selling off the companies assets when it goes belly up.

      It's no contest whatsoever. If you are concerned about the long-term health of a company, trust the union over the executives and board of directors.

    12. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      "Social contract" reminds me of "social promotion" ... where everyone goes to the next grade level just because they exist.

      Yeah ... I say we should dismantle that and only let companies pay for the people who earn their keep.

    13. Re:Glad I'm retiring soon by ananamouse · · Score: 1

      >The destruction of the Unions [...] it is clearly pushed by the GOP
      This reminds me of a joke about a flea climbing up an elephants leg with rape on its mind. The GOP cant destroy themselves out of a wet paper bag.
      Destruction of the unions was self-inflicted. The leadership was takenover by patronage and nepotism, corruption flourished, and they lost interest in the welfare of the members. I watched it happen. Same sad story. Go ahead and blame whoever, but if you ignore Franklin you ensure your destruction.

  2. This is me... by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

    For the last 15 years, I have been contract with short "real jobs" in the middle. But after 6 months to a year I have fixed the issues and it is maintenance. I do not like it, and they do not like paying my salary for it, so on to the next. Feeds my ADD. :)

    1. Re: This is me... by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      In my experience they want to keep me around for insurance. I have been asked to just hang out for a year. I cant handle it though. I like to be crushed with work.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
  3. try before you buy by js290 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Contract workers is effectively "try before you buy" on an employee. It's getting increasingly difficult to fire poor performing employees. Contract is a good bet for employers.

    --
    "Tempers are wearing thin. Let's just hope some robot doesn't kill everybody." --Bender
    1. Re:try before you buy by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's getting increasingly difficult to fire poor performing employees. C

      With the proliferation of "Right to Work" laws and states it has gotten much easier to get rid of any employee for practically any non-discriminatory reason, including their politics.

      Non-union employees have essentially zero job protections and with the death of unions we have fewer and fewer union employees.

    2. Re:try before you buy by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I've never found a contract job that will cover my corresponding salary and healthcare plus all other financial and time costs of being independent. Maybe there are some good ones out there, but a lot of them are a scam.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:try before you buy by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Contract workers is effectively "try before you buy" on an employee.

      I prefer "rent to own"...

      Actually, my favorite story was that a certain place wanted me to start earlier, so they moved money out of their furniture budget to pay me. So there was a running joke about my name being "Otto Man" or "Chester Field".

    4. Re:try before you buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're confusing At Will with Right to Work. Right to Work means you can't be forced to pay union dues, that's it. At Will means employee or employer can end the relationship anytime, for no reason given at all.

    5. Re:try before you buy by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      Best option is to find a unionized government job; I hear they pay even more than equivalent private sector now (due to stalled wages) and benefits and pensions are good.

      Overall, though, with automation and off-shoring we're headed for a train wreck.

    6. Re:try before you buy by GonzoPhysicist · · Score: 1

      This mistake is so prevalent I wonder if there was a misinformation campaign at some point to conflate them.

      --
      horror vacui
  4. What do you want us to say? by H3lldr0p · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The situation sucks. Not only in the present but it was make the future suck as well because everyone caught in it are going to feel a crunch come retirement, if they ever do get to retire. There's no guarantees with the mighty 401(k) and IRA that are tied to market forces which we have no command or control over.

    There are structural problems with our society that allow this to happen. It's not only coded in our employment laws but also in the anti-union bent of corporate profit imperatives. We want people to take responsibility for their own success but remove every single tool that might be used for that through black-letter law or through making it so expensive in seeking redress of wrongs it become untenable, even in principle, to see it done. We allow for unilateral NDAs to be upheld. We allow for so much to be hidden away that even if I were to invest the time (as if I had the time to invest) looking into a potential employer, I wouldn't find be able to find the problems they have.

    So what do you want us to talk about here? We know about it. We work as well as we can within it. There's public outcry but no political will to do anything. This is the endpoint of 40 years of corporate political influence. What's there to be surprised about it?

    1. Re:What do you want us to say? by El+Cubano · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The situation sucks. Not only in the present but it was make the future suck as well because everyone caught in it are going to feel a crunch come retirement, if they ever do get to retire. There's no guarantees with the mighty 401(k) and IRA that are tied to market forces which we have no command or control over.

      I disagree. It allows tremendous freedom to those who prefer that sort of employment arrangement. For example, if you only want to work 6 months out of the year, that is sort of difficult to accomplish with a traditional full-time job. However as a contractor or gig worker, you can easily do that if you want.

      Also, if you are concerned about the markets, then invest your IRA or 401(k) in something other than stocks. You do know that you can invest in precious metals, government bonds, real estate, foreign stock markets, or even designate a traditional savings account as your IRA vehicle, right? No need to subject your retirement savings to the risks of the stock market unless you want to.

    2. Re:What do you want us to say? by imgod2u · · Score: 2

      The way the current law is heavily favors the 9-5 employee over contracting. Which I would venture distorts the number of jobs that could and should be contracting gigs out there.

      Someone choosing to contract over being a W-2 truly is disadvantaged in many ways. This includes taxation (pays the full FICA tax), benefits (no individual health insurance market worth a damn), worker protection, vacation/sick/parental leave and retirement savings (401k's way superior to IRA's).

      Even if the hourly rate is 2x, it still isn't quite enough to close that gap.

      This is why I favor things like UBI and UHC. It takes the burden of providing that kind of baseline stuff away from companies so they don't have to be required by law to provide things like minimum wage, health coverage, etc. while providing said benefits to a much broader range of people.

    3. Re:What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are structural problems with our society that allow this to happen.

      What the.... Seriously?

      You DO remember from history class that Social Security, Medicare, 401ks and pension plans didn't exist for the bulk of the USA's history. Seems to me that prior to the great depression folks lived pretty well and dealt with retirement just fine, caring for their own families, not just letting government do it.

      The ISSUE in society is the "I have to have it now" bent we generally all have and a total lack of discipline in financial planning for rainy days. It used to be that being in debt was a bad thing, but now, having tens of thousands of unsecured debt is a way of life, where the struggle to make ends meet incudes being able to make the minimum payments on your credit cards and student loans.

      I get that it's not always possible to control income and expenses, that unforeseen circumstances happen from time to time. But dang it folks, we need to plan ahead a whole lot better and start saving money. It's called delayed satisfaction and some of us where not taught that as children and now need to learn it as adults. Most of us will make more than a million dollars in our first decade of work but we pitter it away on junk and end up 10 years in with nothing but debt. That's just wrong...

      So yes, the issue is our culture, the problem is within ourselves and inside the individual is where the solution is. We need to become responsible adults, live within our means and save for retirement ourselves, because it's apparent to me that there is zero chance the government or anybody else has enough resources to do it for me, you and everybody else too. You want to retire comfortably? It's up to you to make that happen. It doesn't matter if you work as a contractor, for yourself, or as an employee, YOU are responsible for you.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    4. Re:What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Agreed..

      But most of the complainers out there live beyond their means and work as contractors to collect that extra bit of cash to spend now, instead of saving it for the future. I know because I've had people tell me that's why they contract.

      Too few people take responsibility for planning for their financial futures and end up looking at trying to live the 20 years after retirement on Social Security alone. When they get there, the suddenly realize that what Social Security pays doesn't scratch the surface of what they where used to, but by then, it's too late. Contracting just makes it all that much harder to save enough, because it's so tempting to just spend the money as you get it, where if you work like me and never see that 401k contribution, it's not so difficult because it's not in your paycheck.

      But you are indeed correct. The issue is taking responsibility for your savings yourself, even if you have a 401k.... It's your money, you should add to it regularly, keep track of it, nurse it and make sure it grows so you can retire.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    5. Re:What do you want us to say? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Someone choosing to contract over being a W-2 truly is disadvantaged in many ways. This includes taxation (pays the full FICA tax), benefits (no individual health insurance market worth a damn), worker protection, vacation/sick/parental leave and retirement savings (401k's way superior to IRA's).

      Even if the hourly rate is 2x, it still isn't quite enough to close that gap.

      I'll agree that independent contracting is NOT for everyone, but if you want the freedom and wish to put in the extra work, it can be quite lucrative and satisfying.

      First, with regard to the FICA (and medicare, the "employment taxes"). Yep, you have to pay both sides of this, HOWEVER there is a way around this somewhat.

      You can form a S-Corp. With this you pay yourself (as sole employee) a "reasonable"salary, and you only have to pay the employment taxes on that "reasonable salary".

      Example: Say you bill out $100K annually.

      You pay yourself a "salary" of $40K. Throughout the year, you pay fed and state taxes and both halves of the FICA/Medicare taxes ONLY on that $40K.

      At the end of the year, the remaining $60K, you deduct your business expenses, etc....and then the remainder falls through on your personal taxes, and you only pay federal and state taxes on that. That is your "disbursement".

      Yep, takes some paperwork shuffling, but can be done.

      For vacation/sick and health and retirement, well, you have to know what your bill rate is to negotiate.

      And it is likely quite a bit more that double as you'd mentioned.

      Over the years, I've been quite happy with my insurance I buy..I get a "high deductible" policy, usually with like $1300 deductible. With this I can open a HSA (Health Savings Account) that I fund fully each year Pre-tax. I pay my routine medical costs with this and the insurance policy is there for emergency care. Actually, after Obama care, the insurance part got MUCH more $$...due to the requirements to have stupid coverage I don't need (I don't ever need prenatal or maternity coverage, I'm a guy and not having kids)....but even so, you do your bill rate to cover that. It's not that difficult, and the coverage MORE than serves me well with my medical needs. And I am a bit older now, some pre-existing stuff, but still...is not that much a strain.

      I have investment accounts set up and I put money way pre-tax to the max, and some that is post tax. I have in my bill rate enough to cover me to take off about 3 weeks a year sick/vacation.

      Yes, it takes more of my time, but I get the benefits of making my own hours, taking off when needed. I'm fortunately enough to work remotely, so I can really set up shop wherever I want..I can be working from a bar in Key West if I wish....

      :)

      But no, it isn't for everyone....but it can be a nice and rewarding way to work. You bring in a LOT of $$, but you have to be disciplined enough to save for taxes, retirement and expenses....but even after that, you can make enough to have a good bit of disposable fun money too, depending on the field you are in.

      It helps if you have people skills too...to get and KEEP longer term gigs.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:What do you want us to say? by fluffernutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes it's the same old 'sock your money away until you die' philosophy. People don't know when they will die. My wife has been seriously ill twice, should we be living an ultra-frugal life now and basically making our lives miserable and never doing anything fun together as a family so I can have a big pile of money once everyone has gone their own separate way? I understand that there are over spenders, but what I am saying is that there are under spenders too.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    7. Re:What do you want us to say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except prior to the Great Depression, half of all Americans lived in poverty, and 80% of seniors did too. Let's not go back to the Gilded Age.

    8. Re:What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a whole lot more over spenders than under spenders.

      My wife almost died a couple of times too when my kids where very young. Once from pancreatitis when a retained gall stone blocked her bile duct even though her gall bladder had been removed 2 years before and the second time when she came down with sarcoidosis stumping her doctors for almost a week. My kids where both in grade school at the time. So I know what you are talking about.

      Not knowing when you are going to die is only an excuse to spend for some. There is a balance in life as in anything, but MOST people spend too much, very few to little. The actuarial tables in the USA are a good place to start for retirement planning, they will tell you how old you will likely be when you die. I'd plan for something in the 90 percentile or so and work from there. Personally, I don't mind leaving a few bucks for the kids so over shooting isn't a problem.

      I have known one guy who was a confirmed under spender. He died, worth tens of millions, in his one room log cabin with one light bulb in the early 80's with no one to leave it to but a distant relative he never saw. That's sad... But it wasn't nearly as sad as my grandmother who died having lived on Social Security for multiple decades and the sweet old lady who I knew growing up in the same situation. Living where you have to choose between food or medication is a sad existence too. There is a middle road here.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    9. Re:What do you want us to say? by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What if saving for retirement is beyond this balance for many people? There are a lot of people who don't make enough to both save for retirement and live a comfortable life. Just because they haven't socked money away doesn't mean they are financially irresponsible.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    10. Re:What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 2

      I'm calling BS on this for most people.. I dare say MOST people CAN and should save for retirement.

      If your earnings don't allow for saving for retirement, then you are living at the subsistence social security level for your whole life and won't be shocked when retirement happens. So if you think "comfortable" is something above what you could do on SS when you are old and your current income allows you to spend more than that, you are trading today's "comfort" for decades of uncomfortable poverty if you don't save part of that excess.

      I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of folks who think they just don't have enough to save and live "comfortably" are really living beyond their means to start with. If you have a job and make more than what welfare pays, you should be able to save some for retirement, maybe not a lot, but some.

      You see, what this "comfortably" thing usually means is I don't have everything I want and my credit cards are maxed out so I cannot make the minimum payments... In which case, you've been digging a deep hole of debt, which is HARD to get out of and takes a long time of being ultra disciplined. But, in reality, if you get into this debt cycle, your standard of living WILL decline below your income anyway. In those cases you are working to pay interest and not to live, so you end up at a lower standard of living.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    11. Re:What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Again that's BS.

      DURING the great depression we had those numbers, but not before the stock market crashed.

      Most people lived in rural society and could grow their own food on the family farm for most of our history. Poverty based on income doesn't usually measure barter or what you can grow on your own. So it's kind of hard to describe "poverty" in terms of per capita income back in the day.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    12. Re:What do you want us to say? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Most people are not addicted to credit cards. Most people are just trying to make the bills from month to month.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    13. Re: What do you want us to say? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      It was the farmers that were lazy. Contributing members of farming communities generally worked an average of 2 hours a day year-round. Imagine surviving on two hours a day today.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    14. Re:What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If it is a continual struggle to meet one's obligations month to month and you cannot save anything because of it, you need to reduce expenses. If you are hitting the credit cards to survive and cannot pay them in full at the end of the month, you are digging a hole and I suggest you stop.

      My point here is many people who struggle to make ends meet do so because of their own choices. It need not be this way.

      Look, I'm not insensitive to their plight, I've been there and made the same mistakes they are making. I've been in debt and struggled too. But I decided that it was time for me to take control and fix the situation. That means I stopped spending money on expensive (to me) things and made do with what I could afford on what I earned. I worked, put money away, paid off the debt and now am in a much better place, living better than I could before. It can be done, though I admit that the deeper in the hole you are, the harder it is to get out and the longer it takes. My suggestion is to not dig the hole to start, don't live above your means.

      Folks need to realize that THEY are responsible for their welfare because nobody else will, including the government, and THEY need to take steps to fend for themselves now an in retirement.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    15. Re:What do you want us to say? by swillden · · Score: 2

      Most people are not addicted to credit cards. Most people are just trying to make the bills from month to month.

      Living paycheck to paycheck has little to do with income and a lot to do with spending. I know people making $200K per year and living paycheck to paycheck. I know people making $30K per year who have healthy savings.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    16. Re: What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 2

      It was the farmers that were lazy. Contributing members of farming communities generally worked an average of 2 hours a day year-round. Imagine surviving on two hours a day today.

      I assume you are joking..

      I grew up on a farm... 2 hours a day on average? Seriously? It took 2 hours just to milk the cows in the morning... Then there was feeding them, cleaning the barn after the inevitable happens after you feed them AND then milking them in the evening which too another 2 hours. In between morning chores and the evening milking was all the seasonal stuff, including fence repair and putting up hay in the summer, breaking ice and feeding hay in the winter and a whole host of odd jobs related to staying warm, fed and dry year round. We got a bit more sleep in the winter, but in the summer it was pretty much up and down with the sun and work in the middle.

      I don't know where your 2 hour number came from, but I can assure you it wasn't possible on the farm I was raised on.

      In fact, this experience is what drove me into this technical field. Milking cows in a freezing barn on a cold winter morning wasn't my idea of a good time and neither was throwing bails of hay around all summer. Man I hated that stuff... (And green beans... I still hate green beans..)

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    17. Re:What do you want us to say? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      We're not talking about those people.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    18. Re:What do you want us to say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it is a continual struggle to meet one's obligations month to month and you cannot save anything because of it, you need to reduce expenses.

      You need to get out of your bubble bobby. For many people, there are no more expenses to cut without choosing to be homeless. For a few, cutting expenses means dying to whatever ailment is sucking their 40k salary dry and then some, thus the credit cards.

    19. Re: What do you want us to say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I grew up on a farm... 2 hours a day on average? Seriously? It took 2 hours just to milk the cows...

      I'll stop you right there. Your problem was choosing to be a rancher instead of a farmer. Grow winter wheat, corn, soybeans. Then work 14 hour days every day for six weeks a year. The rest is lazing about, watching youtube, and shitposting on slashdot while raking in 120k per family member per year...or 90k if you don't have your own silos and equipment.

      7 * 14 * 6 / 365 = 1.61 hours on average per day. With random maintenance here and there, checking the market, yeah it's probably 2 hours a day of actual work on average.

    20. Re:What do you want us to say? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Living paycheck to paycheck has little to do with income and a lot to do with spending.

      Sounds like the "up from your bootstraps" mantra. Except you look at statistics and the #1 correlation to how far you get in life is "how much money my daddy had". When people can't make a living wage, they have no choice but to spend what they make.

      Bourgeoisiesplaining to the poor is incredibly obnoxious. "Hey poor person, eat Ramen for two meals a day for four decades straight and you can afford a house you can enjoy in retirement - for two years before you die!"

    21. Re:What do you want us to say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Telling the poor to spend less is like telling the starving to eat less.

    22. Re:What do you want us to say? by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Living paycheck to paycheck has little to do with income and a lot to do with spending. I know people making $200K per year and living paycheck to paycheck. I know people making $30K per year who have healthy savings.

      True, but there is a limit. If you pay $500/month rent, that's 6K a year. Big chunk of that 30K just for one thing. And many places don't have rents or house payments that low. Add a car, utility bills, phone bills, and there's not much left. Then the car breaks, your roof leaks, you get sick. You're in trouble even if you haven't screwed up financially.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    23. Re:What do you want us to say? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Living paycheck to paycheck has little to do with income and a lot to do with spending.

      Sounds like the "up from your bootstraps" mantra.

      Nonsense. It's certainly true that there is an income level below which things become impossible. But that is actually not the case for most people in the middle and lower-middle class in the United States.

      Bourgeoisiesplaining to the poor is incredibly obnoxious.

      And so is inventing assholish words like "Bourgeoisiesplaining", as is using them with people who didn't come from anything remotely like "Bourgeosie". I'm also not talking about those who are actually poor, but the large majority who do have enough to live, but just don't manage it well.

      Please actually read what I write, rather than just writing me off as clueless. I come from a poor family, not a wealthy one. My father grew up in serious poverty -- five kids in a single bed sort of poverty. I grew up in a lower middle class lifestyle (we qualified for and received government assistance, like free school lunch, government cheese, etc.). I'm moderately wealthy, but the only one of my five siblings who is.

      I find it very interesting that among my own relatives who are lower-middle income and lower-income it's consistently those who pay 10% of their small income to the church in tithing who are the most economically stable. Given two families, both with total incomes of less than $40K, the one that gives 10% of that meager income away every paycheck is better off -- not only doesn't live paycheck to paycheck, but actually has more/better stuff. How can that possibly make sense?

      It works that way for two reasons. The first is that the family that pays tithing does it by assuming at the outset that a chunk of their income isn't available for spending. They have been taught to "first pay the Lord, then pay yourself, then spend what's left". So they pay 10% to the church, put 20% in savings, and figure out how to live on whatever is left. The 20% in savings means that they almost always have a cushion. The second is that that 10% paid in tithing in some sense represents an emergency fund of last resort. If all of the savings is exhausted, they can choose not to pay tithing for a month or two. This almost never happens, though.

      The bottom line is that the tithe-payer's choice to live on 70% of their income provides a level of elasticity that allows them to make better choices. When the old car breaks down again, they have the money to fix it without having to pawn stuff or take extortionate payday loans -- or worse, not be able to fix it. I have one relative who wrecked their car and was then unable to go to work, dropping their income to nothing. (I actually paid for the repairs when I heard about it, but without that family "safety net" they'd have been in serious trouble.) When it's obvious that someone is going to need new shoes in a few months, and shoes are on sale now, there's money to buy the sale-priced shoes now rather than buying them at full price when it becomes impossible to wait any longer. And so on.

      Your economic situation is a function of two factors, your income and your choices about how you spend it. Except in cases of true poverty, boosting income without also focusing on choices almost never results in greater economic stability, it just increases expenditures. On the other hand, focusing on making better choices nearly always increases stability and, over the course of a few months or years, increases standard of living as well.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    24. Re:What do you want us to say? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Living paycheck to paycheck has little to do with income and a lot to do with spending. I know people making $200K per year and living paycheck to paycheck. I know people making $30K per year who have healthy savings.

      True, but there is a limit. If you pay $500/month rent, that's 6K a year. Big chunk of that 30K just for one thing. And many places don't have rents or house payments that low. Add a car, utility bills, phone bills, and there's not much left. Then the car breaks, your roof leaks, you get sick. You're in trouble even if you haven't screwed up financially.

      True, there is a limit -- and the fact that getting sick can destroy people is a serious problem that we need to fix. But the car breaking, the roof leaking... those actually shouldn't screw you unless you get several such shocks in quick succession. The key is that whatever your income level is, you need to live on less than that, and save the rest. If you budget to save 20% of your income and live on 80%, you can build up a cushion so a few shocks are survivable.

      If it's simply not possible to live on 80% of your income, then you have a serious problem. And by "not possible" I mean there's no way to scale back your lifestyle -- live in a smaller place, drive a cheaper car, lower your utility or phone bills, etc. But the majority of lower-middle income Americans are not in that situation.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    25. Re: What do you want us to say? by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      In IT pretty much every department I have encountered uses an unlimited PTO despite the company policy. They just ignore the PTO reporting unless someone is going on vacation for a few weeks. Stringent adherance to the PTO policy is simply not acceptable given the nature of the work.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    26. Re:What do you want us to say? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Not to mention children. Children are expensive. Unless you want to doom the human race, you have to allow for children.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    27. Re:What do you want us to say? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Life is really going to suck when you retire on Social Security alone... Trust me. If you think it's bad now, that will be worse.

      Also, I'm not sure I believe you. Unless you are really unskilled and incapable of acquiring working skills, all you need to do is keep showing up to work and I can almost guarantee you won't be paid minimum wage for long. If you are willing to work, show up and are capable of acquiring new skills, minimum wage won't be forever. If your employer simply won't pay more and you have been there awhile, find another job...

      This "I only make minimum wage" forever thing is a myth.. Even Wal-Mart pays more than that for folks stocking shelves, and that doesn't take much in the way of special training or skills. Nobody who wants to work needs to be stuck in a minimum wage job unless you just don't have the mental capacity to learn... What I find is that most folks who ARE stuck in such jobs, are not willing to work.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    28. Re:What do you want us to say? by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I'm honestly happy that you can do this arrangement, but the contractor climate is such that people that make considerably less money than you are forced into a situation where they still have all these burdens, and clearly not the resources to set things up with this, even if they happen to know that it's a possibility at all.

      In a better world, we'd be able to choose one or the other as perfectly valid situations, but the reality is that these are people that are already making very little and the big corporations are pushing the major burdens down to them.

      This sort of misclassification (for them, not you) also messes with a lot of state tax schemes. It's bad juju.

  5. "Vensel commuted three hours round-trip..." by DamonHD · · Score: 1

    Oh, the horrors!

    Sounds like a typical commute into London, rather than some extreme bad case.

    One of the reasons that I have worked for myself for all but ~6 weeks out of the last ~30Y is to have a bit more control over commuting...

    Rgds

    Damon

    --
    http://m.earth.org.uk/
    1. Re:"Vensel commuted three hours round-trip..." by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      A typical commute into London IS an extreme bad case.

    2. Re:"Vensel commuted three hours round-trip..." by DamonHD · · Score: 1

      Well, more subtly, I believe research suggests that the maximum tolerable one-way commute across many countries/cultures is 90 minutes, and in the case of expensive places such as London people move just far enough away, saving on property prices, to make that close to the typical commute for the area. And people do indeed commute in from a long away away from London, such as Brighton (and the reaches of Essex and Kent).

      From where I am now I can be from my desk at home to a desk in the City of London in 75 minutes typically by public transport. My town has been a dormitory suburb for City clerks for a long time, in effect.

      So it is not extreme in that sense.

      Rgds

      Damon

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
  6. The Shitshow of the Gig Economy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In the future, all employees will be treated like front-line grunts; easily interchangeable and expendable.

    Of course, design/engineering/programming/security work is infinitely more complex, but Greed doesn't give a shit about things like continuity, and will assume every employee is easily replaced.

    Quality will become a shadow of its former self. Welcome to the Gig Economy. Enjoy the shitshow.

    1. Re:The Shitshow of the Gig Economy. by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      You have always been interchangeable and expendable. Your mission, whether you choose to accept it or not, is to sell the commodity that is your labor to the highest bidder.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    2. Re:The Shitshow of the Gig Economy. by BuckBundy · · Score: 1

      >In the future, all employees will be treated like front-line grunts; easily interchangeable and expendable. What is this - a post from the 80s?! I've been working for a major corporation and all ICs are being treated this way, for as long as I can remember. Important team member is leaving the team and only s/he knows the details of our prod system/next-gen design? Who cares? "Hey, you - I want this up and running next Friday!" Jeez...

      --
      BookDetective.net - book search engine and ranker I donate my skills to.
  7. Full time contractors... by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

    First job I had out of school was a lab where nearly everyone was "permanent contractors", where they were just using it as a way to avoid paying benefits. Interviewed another place where the lab had a 3 month opening because they had a 'permanent contractor' they really liked but couldn't keep her year round (unspoken: because then she'd have cause to sue for benefits, as I understand things). I don't know if it is still that bad but it sure led to high turnover and low morale at those places.

    1. Re:Full time contractors... by mtmra70 · · Score: 1

      And the article needs to clarify a little. They mention "under a contract" then they mention "without benefits/full-time employment/etc'

      Here are the different types of "contractors": -Traditional full-time employees who also have a contract with the company. Probably less common in the US, but more common elsewhere. Could also be considered union workers. They receive full benefits from the company, but have a little extra positioning when it comes to not getting fired for no real reason.

      -Staff augmentation/out sourced, most common "contractor" for large companies. These are full-time workers, typically with benefits of some sort from their true W2 employer, but don't go towards the head count of the company paying for them. It also lets them focus costs intro a straight per hour rate, rather than calculating salary, bonus, benefits, etc. These are common with large companies where they need lots of workers but doesn't want to report it to Wall-street or the local news outlet when large downsizing occurs.

      -Independent contractors/1099 workers. These are the ones which are usually not receiving any benefits because they work for themselves. They likely receive a 1099 for everyone they work for, and you can more or less set your own hours/schedule.

  8. Re:The ugly truth: We're just whores by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

    So step up to independent escort and keep all the money. :) "Just be nice to the customer, Fancy, and they'll be nice to you!"

  9. Because Companies are mistreating their Employees by Quantus347 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The dirty little secret of this trend is that it's happening because the employers increasingly getting away with policies that in past times would have been called mistreatment of their workforce. The American workforce has increasingly moved out of the blue collar industries that had fought long and hard for Regulatory and Union protections, to the comparatively unregulated and unprotected world of white collar drudgery. Things like Union protections and Pension Programs are a things of the past, and loyalty (in either direction) has been entirely removed from the equation.

    The vast majority of people would not cast off the security of a large organization and take on all the risk of going freelance while there are alternative. But increasingly the Companies are asking for more and more from their employees and giving less and less in return, to the point where the Hassle&Restriction of a large organization out weights diminishing expectation of Job Security that is the whole point.

    --
    Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
  10. I'd be cool with this... by RyanFenton · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...if we had a basic floor by some mechanism, where someone couldn't fall below, leading to a semi-permanent drain on society, and a society that was unwilling to have people die for their own benefit.

    You know, something closer to the biblical ideal espoused in the 'new testament' part of the most consistently referenced book in this nation, but with the freedoms espoused in the other largely revered document, our constitution.

    A 'basic income' system would work, but some mix of unions/safety net if that wasn't possible could at least mitigate those falling through the cracks.

    Education also helps - but everyone can be suckered, or just have the bad luck to be taken advantage of for too long. Even the smartest folks can live most of their lives in abject circumstances for the sake of loved ones, or ideals where that intelligence doesn't help them.

    A more ideal case would be if everyone had some base line, could be sure that everyone they loved would at least survive in some level of comfort, and were free to help, not in the confines of a arbitrary-hour work week, but could use tools to be available whenever made sense, without fear of becoming bankrupt later in life for pursuing whatever they felt helped others the most.

    Money should still matter - what folks are willing to reward more or less can still matter... but it shouldn't be increasingly the ONLY thing that matters, above life, death, and everything else.

    Shared social value should matter for SOMETHING, shouldn't it?

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:I'd be cool with this... by DMJC · · Score: 4, Insightful

      heh you just described literally every other country in the western world.

    2. Re:I'd be cool with this... by RyanFenton · · Score: 2

      I know - and I agree - but most Americans are completely unaware of, or told vehemently wrong things about every other social system in the world.

      Asked about the same ideals that make those other industrialized nations work objectively better towards those ideals - like healthcare, social mobility, education, etc - they would agree wholeheartedly with the ideals and even mechanisms - but then turn away at the labels and identity politics.

      It's a silly, confused little pocket of perspectives we've built up in this nation.

      Ryan Fenton

    3. Re:I'd be cool with this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You mean every other country in the developed world?

      Yes, money is important, but there becomes a point where a country should decide to be more than a fiefdom, a place where a few people live off other people's labor, and the rest know nothing but "let them eat cake" replies and despair. This makes for a great sci-fi dystopia setting, but not a place where one wants to send their sons and daughters to live in. Capitalism needs some type of sanity checks, or else there will be nothing left but polluted air/water/soil.

      Tax-wise, it is simple. Business profits get taxed on a sliding scale. Then, there are sales and import taxes. You can play games with hiding money from income taxes, but it is a lot harder to sneak that Lear jet or Maybach past the border patrol without the law knowing. Drop the income tax, and add a category VAT. Similar with estate taxes, where having wealth taxed is important.

      Auto insurance would be replaced by no-fault, unlimited coverage, paid for by a fuel and energy usage tax. This way, there are no more issues with uninsured/underinsured coverage.

      Health insurance would be single payer, just like the rest of the world. The US spends twice as much than any other country per capita, and total than any other country on health care. Having sickness or injury not wipe your life's savings isn't a bad idea.

      Now for a minimum guaranteed income: If people have some security that they will be fed/clothed/housed, they can actually do stuff in the economy that will more than recoup the cash spent on this. Mazlow's Pyramid shows this out. If you have a population slaving to exist, the country tends to wind up being a footnote in the history books.

      Education?

      I went to college with classmates from other countries. Their education was paid for by their governments. All of them are doing well, with zero debt. They pay far more in taxes to their Fatherlands/Motherlands/Mainland than their education cost.

      If you plant seeds and till the soil, you get a FAR greater harvest than if you say it isn't worth buying the seeds, and wondering why you have nothing but weeds. Even the dumbest, most inbred hayseed of a farmer understands this. However, the US government, particularly one political party, fails to get this. So, our country fails in life and is the laughingstock of the world.

      Of course, the question of "how does one pay for it?" come about? Simple. If businesses paid their share of taxes like they did before 1980, there would be no deficit.

    4. Re:I'd be cool with this... by RyanFenton · · Score: 1

      Nah. As addressed earlier, I've got folks I love and want to help.

      Also, look to history. Like, any extended period of history. There's a general trend over time.

      The first trend is peace. There's a very strong trend towards less violence over time, across all places in the world, all societies, etc. The worst wars of the past centuries are less violent, in terms of population killed violently, than the peace of previous centuries.

      The second trend is welfare of the average person. There's definitely setbacks for those - lots of inequality popping up across history - but those also tend to get eroded too.

      A third trend would be rule of law. This is seen more of a classically 'conservative' trend, but it works for everyone. It's also crucial to the peace trend.

      I think my ideals (both conservative and liberal) are more likely to be met by time passing and people acting, than the lopsided pseudo-conservative brand of cruelty at large at the moment.

      More folks just have to find better ways of seeing what's going on, and seeing past the feeble messages distorting things - like happens in many generations. Perspectives shift, and no distortion holds past too many generations.

      I'd also prefer to prevent our own silly system from hurting the rest of the world too much, as much as I can.

      Ryan Fenton

    5. Re:I'd be cool with this... by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What 'freedom' do you have in the US that you wouldn't have as a citizen of any other democratic wealthy nation? Freedom to go bankrupt if you get sick.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    6. Re:I'd be cool with this... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The problem is you call any system with 'sanity checks' socialism or communism like it's a dirty word, without stopping to think about how to optimize the advantages and get the most out of them.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    7. Re: I'd be cool with this... by houghi · · Score: 1

      Soon you can remove that word "other" to describe it.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  11. Another sign of a broken economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There's also the outdated work ethic that only serves to fuel the lifestyle of the one-percenters. There's enough wealth in the world to satisfy everyone's needs without everyone "needing" a job. Guaranteed annual income should come sooner, not later.

    1. Re:Another sign of a broken economy by vakuona · · Score: 1

      I am not against a basic income, but at the end of the day, one needs to appreciate that giving people "income" is tantamount to forcing other people to work for them. Everything that one consumes is something that has taken someone's labour to produce.

  12. My bro did this for a few years by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    it sucked. Very inconsistent pay. He'd be on 9 months and off 3. Which is fine if you're in your 20s but not so much when you've got kids to raise. You're always playing catch up. I forget why but you can't get for unemployment.

    The other problem was he could never get a raise because his contract agency had established how much he was willing to work for, so even if the job paid more the contract agency just pocketed the difference. He didn't have a degree so he needed a contract agency to get past the HR filters.

    Right now it's dog eat dog here in the States. Whenever anyone suggests having the gov't step in and fix it they're shouted down as tax and spend liberals redistributing somebody else's wealth. We can't even get health care over here.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:My bro did this for a few years by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

      it sucked. Very inconsistent pay. He'd be on 9 months and off 3. Which is fine if you're in your 20s but not so much when you've got kids to raise. You're always playing catch up. I forget why but you can't get for unemployment.

      You do not get it because you do not pay it. Unemployment insurance is taken out of your paycheck when you are full time, but not when you contract. One of those things you have to allow for when you negotiate the rate.
      As for the gaps... They come. Every time. You know they are coming. If you do not have 3-6 months of expenses to draw from, you are asking for pain. And if you do not make enough to save that, cut your expenses or raise your rate.

      The other problem was he could never get a raise because his contract agency had established how much he was willing to work for, so even if the job paid more the contract agency just pocketed the difference. He didn't have a degree so he needed a contract agency to get past the HR filters.

      Get a new pimp! I work with several IT firms, and pick up gigs directly as well. The firms I work with know that low pay means they only get time left after the high pay guys get the cream... :) I get raises.

      Right now it's dog eat dog here in the States. Whenever anyone suggests having the gov't step in and fix it they're shouted down as tax and spend liberals redistributing somebody else's wealth. We can't even get health care over here.

      That is because everything the government has "fixed" so far is worse then when they started! :)

    2. Re:My bro did this for a few years by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      The other problem was he could never get a raise because his contract agency had established how much he was willing to work for

      That's why you do direct, independent 1099 contracting...you incorporate yourself and subcontract yourself out. This way YOU negotiate the bill rate you want to work for. Never be a W2 employee to a contract house, that's the worst of both worlds.

      You may do it for awhile to get contacts, but that's it.

      Well, him not having a degree was a hindrance...but that's a problem he should have solved.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:My bro did this for a few years by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      One of those things you have to allow for when you negotiate the rate.

      This is why these jobs go to 20-30 year olds that can always live in their parent's basement again if they have to and don't care about EI.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    4. Re:My bro did this for a few years by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Most people just want to do a job and don't want to spend their lives negotiating for a better deal.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    5. Re:My bro did this for a few years by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Most people just want to do a job and don't want to spend their lives negotiating for a better deal.

      Then, those are people with no motivation, and they will likely NEVER excel in life, make enough money to be comfortable and save for retirement, etc.

      Part of life and succeeding IS being able to stand up for yourself, and fight and win.

      This is a competition out here for all of us. Its been that way ever since there was man on this planet....its the same game, just the parameters have changed.

      Those who don't know their worth, and compete....lose.

      And it isn't spending your life...just when you are getting a job. And if you are a W2 employee, you need to do this to keep getting raises and promotions, with contracting...its the bill rate on your next gig.

      This is a part of life....not sure what generation lost that valuable lesson in life....?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:My bro did this for a few years by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      I get those jobs and I am a 20+30 year old! :)

    7. Re:My bro did this for a few years by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That is because everything the government has "fixed" so far is worse then when they started! :)

      When put that absolutely, it sounds like a religious belief rather than an empirical one. It would help if we could get a general attitude that we should improve how government works, rather than having a lot of people who'd rather break it so they can argue against government.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    8. Re:My bro did this for a few years by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      So when you contract, you get a 4 hour a day job so you can promote yourself for the other 4 hours of the day? Or do you spend your life doing this.

      You sound like you're a peach.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    9. Re:My bro did this for a few years by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      So you're working without having EI savings then.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  13. we need single payer health care! by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    we need single payer health care!

  14. we need crack down to the fake 1099'er where W2 by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    we need crack down to the fake 1099'er where if you don't have the level of control that an true 1099'er gets then they must put you on the W2

  15. Just say "no" by JDShewey · · Score: 1

    When I get recruiting calls (and I get the often) I will either flat out say I don't do contract positions or I will raise my asking price (which is usually already significantly above what I am making - into the 6 figures range) because the fact is I can't get healthcare and I don't get vacations on a contract position. If workers don't start pushing back, companies will never get the hint that they can't just contract their problems out to someone else. Eventually, they will get the hint.

    1. Re:Just say "no" by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      because the fact is I can't get healthcare and I don't get vacations on a contract position.

      That's why you negotiate for a HIGH bill rate, so you can cover your vacation/sick time off, and health benefits.

      It's not rocket surgery....you have to factor all those things into your bill rate.

      Lots of people do it, and make enough money over and above that to live well and retire.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  16. Re:full time boomers vs. part time millenials by k6mfw · · Score: 1

    Yes, get the commoners to fight each other while the ruling class goes on to buy bigger boats.

    --
    mfwright@batnet.com
  17. Re:Git gud by PPH · · Score: 1

    Or git better. And get paid a contracting fee for your skills. Enough to cover your own insurance and other benefits. And take time off between gigs as you see fit.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  18. It's a mix of things, really ... good and bad. by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Some of the Slashdot commenters seem to take the stance that this is a bad thing; a result of a workplace environment that's gotten so bad, you'd rather just risk going it on your own as a freelancer.

    I'm not so sure?

    For example, I work for a company that employs maybe 100 full-time people, but also keeps about 200 additional freelancers on a list of people they use on a contract basis for projects. Some of these folks were former employees who decided on their own to go freelance.

    Having worked with a number of them over the years, I think it's a mixed bag. You've got the people who happily gave up a "stable job" with a regular salary and benefits for the contract work, because they're really good at what they do. They weren't worried about having enough work to make ends meet. In fact, they make a lot more money as a freelancer and can pick and choose what they'd prefer to do instead of have a project dictated to them as their sole job.

    On the other hand? I've also spoken to a number of these freelancers who I'm really unimpressed with. They don't seem to know their way around the technologies they're supposed to be getting paid to work with, and some of them just have bad attitudes in general. I'm sure in at least some of those cases, they couldn't keep a full-time job for too long. Maybe they're good at a few specific things and that's why our company keeps them on their list of folks they use? But they're probably not a good idea to hire full-time.

    I agree that "job security" isn't as much of a thing as it used to be, but that's been the case since I first entered the job market, decades ago! It's been clear to me that my parents had a level of job security that just doesn't exist for my generation, or for any of them that have come after me. Businesses today are just trying to be as efficient as possible, and technology helps automate away some of the job positions people once held where they really didn't contribute a whole lot. These days, you can't expect good pay and benefits unless you've got the knowledge and skills to warrant it -- and even then? If you work for a place that has a product or service that's not DIRECTLY tied to what you do for them, you're always at risk of losing your job through no fault of your own. (You might be amazing at database administration, but if the widget maker you work for has salespeople who slack off and don't get a decent number of widgets sold? You don't have a lot of job security there.)

  19. Don't work for Orrick by Bugler412 · · Score: 1

    Did my time there in Orrick's Wheeling office as a central system architect supporting their worldwide offices, as an employee, not a contractor. They are one of the law firms encouraging and enabling large corporations to do this, one of their prime business lines is corporate human resources legal work, finding legal ways to remove benefits from employees, protecting corporations in labor disputes, etc. etc. Using a law firm that is one of the drivers of the growing contracting work force for the NPR feature is a really poor example. They also only have an office in Wheeling because of a cozy relationship between one of the senior partners and the former governor of WV that gave them a sweet deal tax wise on a decrepit old toothpaste tube factory where their office is located. Nicely redecorated inside of course.

  20. Re:Who woulda thought... by Junta · · Score: 2

    One amendment I'd make is for worker's comp. I'll agree one should not be *dependent* upon the employer, but on the other hand there does need to be an ever present knob to twist to have companies self-interest align with worker safety (hazardous environment in theory should translate to higher worker's comp premiums).

    The health insurance linked to employer is just bonkers.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  21. It's insulting for management-level by unfortunateson · · Score: 1

    I've had several headhunters contact me about positions with manager or director in the title, but they're rent-to-own: Start as contract, and if we like you, we might hire you in a year or so.

    I have been in this industry for over 30 years, and I'm well known in the business -- I do industry conference presentations, blogging, loudly volunteer on standards development, etc.. If you can't actually hire me, I don't want to work for you.

    Part of the problem is that the headhunters are the contract agency, so it's not at all in their interest to go back to the employer and say, "He'd like to join, but only as a permanent employee."

    One note: with the recent mostly-vile tax revisions, independent contractors get significant tax breaks. It was designed as a handout to financial and real-estate gazillionaires, but it benefits the Uber driver and other giggers.

    --
    Design for Use, not Construction!
    1. Re:It's insulting for management-level by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As a European I don't understand this. Here everyone who works for a company has a contract. Some home a contact with an undefined end date and a term, some have a contract with a limited term - e.g. 1, 3, 6 or 12 months. They are all employees, subject to same protections and benefits. This is an employment contract.
      Then you have external companies people who are hired to execute a task, project or provide a service. These are not employees, but still perform under a commercial contract with the company.

      So, seriously, what is wrong with US and why do employees work without employment contracts?

    2. Re:It's insulting for management-level by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      >> "Start as contract, and if we like you, we might hire you in a year or so."...If you can't actually hire me, I don't want to work for you.

      ^^^ This IS the right attitude. I do listen to the occasional recruiter, but only if it's a velvet-rope, interviews-are-formality path into a high-paying directly-employed-by-corporate-with-benefits position.

      Contracted managers are also a strange message for corporations to send THEIR employees. "We're not really sure if YOUR DEPARTMENT manager is worth keeping long term, but please don't job-shop or anything!"

    3. Re:It's insulting for management-level by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      One note: with the recent mostly-vile tax revisions, independent contractors get significant tax breaks.

      You say this like it is a bad thing?

      There a LOT of us 1099 contractor types, doing real jobs (not uber)....what's wrong with us catching a break for once?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re: It's insulting for management-level by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The US cuts the dicks off just about every kid born there and it's a mystery to you why this bastion of civil liberties doesn't have long term employment contracts?

    5. Re:It's insulting for management-level by DogDude · · Score: 1

      what's wrong with us catching a break for once?

      Because it comes at the expense of people who can least afford to give you tax breaks.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    6. Re:It's insulting for management-level by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Wow. You sure do sound selfish. Best of luck.

      Wow...how does enjoying a RARE tax break, allowing me to keep a few of my hard earned dollars make me selfish?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  22. Re:Who woulda thought... by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

    For sufficiently lazy definitions of "works."

    Falling production costs for food, consumer goods and a lot of other stuff over the past 50+ years has masked a lot of stuff. A lot of those countries that are "working" so wonderfully have massive unemployment, particularly in the younger generations. And if we look at specifics, it's fairly obvious that third party health insurance (such as our system or Switzerland) has not worked better.

    The damage being done is gradual and long term, but it's staring us in the face for anyone who cares to look for it. Employers can't drop employees overnight after a minimum wage or health insurance cost hike, but more and more effort is being devoted to fleshing out the alternatives to hiring Americans (or Europeans) directly as employees. This shouldn't be a controversial thing to say. This is Economics 101 and the signs are all around us that this is happening. Employment for life used to be a thing in a lot of countries. Now it isn't. Youth unemployment of over 40% in Western Europe used to be (I think) rather unthinkable. Now, it isn't.

    Just because there aren't riots in the streets doesn't mean we should continue to allow the damage to accrue. Support sanity. Support real compromises that don't pit American employers and American employees directly against each other. It's not less capitalist; it's MORE capitalistic to let the government handle the cost directly. We do have to be careful that taxes don't rise so much as to scare companies overseas but I can't see how a centralized approach could possibly cost more in corporate taxes than they're already being forced to pay out of pocket now.

  23. Does it matter? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

    Does it matter if Bob Cratchet is a contractor or FTE? Either way, Scrooge is looking to get rid of him as soon as he can. It's the power imbalance in the system that's the problem, not the specifics of the employment contract.

    --
    That is all.
  24. Not Just the United States, but a Global Trend by Koreantoast · · Score: 1

    The rise of contract labor versus permanent employment has been an ongoing issue globally, ranging from Canada to France to Japan and even India. There are differences and nuances market by market, but a lot of it comes down to employers demanding workforce flexibility in the face of uncertainty, competition, and plenty of desperate underemployed people. France is a case where labor regulations are so tight, that contract labor is an easy loophole. Maybe the only place that this trend is beginning to reverse is in Japan, but that's simply because their labor force is rapidly shrinking.

  25. Re:The ugly truth: We're just whores by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    And the staffing company rep doesn't like it when you call her your pimp...but, she won't fire you for it* and it is fun.

    *You could be caught with a dead girl or a live boy, and they wouldn't fire you as long as the client company doesn't find out. They're afraid of the contract going to a rival company.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  26. An Unfortunate Trend by The+Snazster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So far as IT goes, I can say this highlights a very unfortunate trend. There is now an expectation that highly skilled workers in a very specific discipline are available to come out of the woodwork when they are called, that they will be grateful for whatever they can get, and then will quietly slink away to try to find and compete for an opportunity to work somewhere else. We are not talking about salaried contractors hired through a contracting firm, or about the traditional contract jobs of yore, where a self-employed contractor could expect to get the big bucks and make more than enough to carry them through the gaps until their next gig, swapping the job security for financial remuneration. The expectation now is that they will take these jobs, many paying no more than what is comparable for full-time employees (and with no benefits), and like it. In general, unless the remuneration is high enough to offset many other factors (such as the uncertainties and income insecurity, lack of benefits, and the lack of employer provided training) these contract engagements should only be taken as last resort. They tend to be bad economic choices for the worker in the same way that "rent-to-own" is a bad way to furnish your home.

  27. Re:Who woulda thought... by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

    Yes, there's a certain degree of sense in having employers share the cost of injuries so that they'll be motivated to build safer workplaces with safer practices. But I'm not sure that forcing them to pay for worker's comp is a particularly efficient way to do that. Insurance companies do in theory offer lower rates if you can prove you're safer than average but after shopping for car and homeowners insurance, I've noticed that this is often an unreliable, haphazard, inefficient method of interest alignment. I think OSHA plus lawsuits are probably good enough. I don't know precisely how the system is set up now, but we could even allow the worker's comp insurance provider (with a premium paid for by the government, let's say) to sue the employer if their negligence caused a costly injury. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is basically how no-fault car insurance works... your insurance company pays to fix shit up immediately, but they reserve the right to sue the other person on your behalf to recoup their costs (or you can sue yourself, but in the insurance contract they reserve the right to deduct their expenses from any damages you win.)

    So yeah, interest alignment for safe workplaces is all well and good but I think there are plenty of ways to do that without inflating the cost of hiring additional employees. Companies should want to hire more employees. There are many, many ways to help workers without discouraging employers from hiring them in the first place. And if we ever do manage to significantly raise the demand for labor, suddenly all kinds of other problems could begin to solve themselves, like the trade deficit or immigration woes. (Well perhaps not solved, but at least leftists could point a little more confidently to figures showing clear benefits of increased immigration.)

  28. Why do people like instability? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm one of those strange people who prefers a full time job, with a steady paycheck. I know the absolute dollar value for contracts in my field is higher than I get as an FTE, but everyone I know doing contract work is constantly hustling for a new job and never knows where their money will be coming from. I work for an IT services company so I get tons of exposure to different projects. I'm not sure I'd feel the same way if I didn't get work that varied often, but knowing you're going to be paid and can cover your expenses is a relief. I'm not a natural salesman, and really don't want to be looking for work again 2 weeks into a 3-month contract. We employ contractors in some positions where I work, and it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the contracting lifestyle overhearing them calling headhunters, juggling bills, etc.

    People with families, houses and other fixed committments tend to favor steady income. Companies want a disposable, nomadic workforce that never puts down roots and can load their belongings into their car at a moment's notice. I'm strange in that I think it's a good idea for people to stick around, see their projects through, and get involved in the communities they live in. I know employer/employee loyalty is at an all-time low but it doesn't have to be. I think well-run companies that think long term (a minority, I know) don't really want a payroll full of mercenaries that they can't really count on. One of the best things that could happen through the tax code and accounting rules would be to encourage employment of FTEs over contractors. Right now, companies do everything they can to avoid hiring people because there's no incentive. If you made it so that retaining and paying employees is cheaper than a bunch of hired guns, lots of people would be much less stressed.

    1. Re:Why do people like instability? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree. I might not make as much as some of the contract people where I work (although I'm fairly sure it's pretty close), but I'll take stability over the constant 'job hustle' any day. Maybe if you're a super hot shot type A personality you can keep getting a better and better deal through contracts, but I'm more of a slow and steady type of person. So far its worked out for me.

  29. Re:Because Companies are mistreating their Employe by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Bullshit. It's Globalism dummy! What do you expect when you're in direct competition with slave-labor in a 3rd world nation that can do your job over the same internet. Oh, and manufacturing is cheaper too with less environmental regulations (because China doesn't care about its citizens).

    Union. Actually, I'm in favor of it, not because it will solve what you suggest, rather, because it will hasten the exodus of jobs out of this nation even further. Maybe then people will get a clue!

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  30. Re:Who woulda thought... by Whorhay · · Score: 1

    What's funny to me is that were I work contractors actually cost more than regular employees per slot. However that doesn't usually translate to the individual contractors being paid more. When I hired on as a contractor, I somehow was given a form that I probably wasn't supposed to see. That form detailed how much the company was paying for the slot I was filling, my salary accounted for less than 40% of that. Now it is true that employees cost more than just their salary, however in this case there was almost none of that outside of health insurance. When I finally got hired on as a regular employee I got a significant pay increase immediately, regular salary increases tied to time on the job plus annual cost of living raises, retirement benefits, 401k matching, far and away better health insurance coverage, more vacation and sick time. Years down the road now I'm making 20% more than I hired on at and my total cost to the company is still only about 75% of what the contractor company was getting nearly a decade ago. Why does my company use contractor companies for ? I can only imagine that it's tied to some good old boy system.

  31. Re:Who woulda thought... by PPH · · Score: 1

    That form detailed how much the company was paying for the slot I was filling, my salary accounted for less than 40% of that.

    So you weren't really a contractor. You were an employee of a job shop that sent you out on assignments. Carry the contract yourself and take home 100% of the fees.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  32. Re:Who woulda thought... by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

    Yeah, like the other person said, whatever the situation you were in, there was clearly a lot more to it thay you being a contractor situation. Some weird shell company game they were playing for tax reasons, employee leasing, head hunting fees... I don't know exactly what it was you saw, but there was clearly more to it than just you being a contractor.

    In one of my first jobs, our company transitioned us all from employees to contractors, we all received an immediate 33% pay rise and I was told that the company was still paying less per employee. I don't think there are any hidden fees involved in hiring contractors unless something else is going on. And yeah, a good old boy scheme of one sort or another is a pretty good starting assumption.

  33. We've got that floor by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    it's about 6 feet. You're guaranteed to get at least that far.

    --
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    1. Re:We've got that floor by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      But, the poverty line is 7 feet high!

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  34. Because when you're young the extra pay is nice by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    and you feel invincible. Things like health care, retirement and child birth & rearing feel too far off to be real. The way most companies implemented this is by doing it to the young employees or by outsourcing/offshoring. Divide and conquer between the old and young. Break up worker solidarity. That sort of thing.

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    1. Re:Because when you're young the extra pay is nice by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      California companies got in a lot of trouble hiring "permanent temp workers" a number of years back. The laws in this state are very strict on who can be considered a contractor/freelancer and who cannot.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
  35. Re:Who woulda thought... by larryjoe · · Score: 1

    Who woulda thought that if you impose multiple and ever-increasing burdens on employers, that they'll start to hire fewer people as employees?

    While unfunded mandates on employers definitely push companies to want to decrease their employee costs, I think that's just one relatively minor issue among the much larger elephant in the room. The real problem is that the forces that push back against eliminating jobs and decreasing compensation are waning. If all government mandates were suddenly eliminated overnight, I believe that the current cost reduction will continue and even accelerate. Executives are incentivized to cut costs to maximize their short-term stock returns. That's the core of the problem. Until that incentive is altered, government regulations won't matter much in affecting job growth/elimination. Perhaps, those short-term stock returns need to be extended to many years, but that won't happen because the compensation committee members are also the beneficiaries in the incestuous world of corporate governance.

  36. Re:Because Companies are mistreating their Employe by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and being a full time employee doesn't really guarantee you any safety. The usual suspects around here are legendary for their layoff cycles. You'll run into people here who've been laid off two or three times by the same company. Corporate benefits have been going to crap lately too -- you might get an extra bonus a year out of them, that might help with the difference between the FTE and contractor salaries. I made the mistake of accepting a stock grant, which accidentally made a decent amount of money for me but still almost wasn't worth the extra complexity in my taxes. Admittedly paid vacations are kind of nice, assuming they ever actually let you take them.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  37. Re:full time boomers vs. part time millenials by sunking2 · · Score: 1

    Keep playing with your email and phone while the old timers who got us to the moon using slide rulers continue to do the work.

    I'm half joking here, but the problem isn't so much the older employees as much as companies do a terrible job passing knowledge.

  38. A common practice by Trogre · · Score: 1

    This is a fairly common flow of events, and often goes a little like this:

    CEO doesn't like wage bill on balance sheet.
    CEO looks at workers and can't figure out what they all do.
    CEO decides to downsize.
    CEO hires a consulting company to conduct interviews and tell CEO what s/he wants to hear.
    Consulting company recommends firing workers, and CEO acts.
    Time passes.
    CEO doesn't like sales figures on balance sheet.
    CEO discovers they actually need workers to get stuff done.
    CEO hires back workers as consultants on contract basis at 3x their prior wage.
    Everybody smiles.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  39. You do know a major crash is comming, right by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    you shouldn't feel so safe. It wouldn't take much to wipe out that investment portfolio. 7 figures isn't a lot by today's standards and rest assured someone out there is already thinking about how to swindle you out of it.

    --
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  40. Re:Use Contract Firms, Not 1099 by durdur · · Score: 1

    It is pretty rare for a contract firm (aka body shop) to offer any benefits at all. Generally all they do is pay you subpar wages and mark up what they billing the customer, pocketing the difference.

  41. Re:Who woulda thought... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Who woulda thought that if you impose multiple and ever-increasing burdens on employers, that they'll start to hire fewer people as employees?

    Do you sprinkle some sugar on the corporatist boots before licking them, or do you take them black?

  42. Re:Who woulda thought... by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

    We can't let corner cases like that dictate our entire economic policy. He already has incentives in the form of OSHA and employee lawsuits. If it turns out those aren't enough, well, we can enhance the power of either or both of those things.

  43. Re:Who woulda thought... by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

    Did you miss the part where I am in favor of DIRECT GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE TO WORKERS including, but not limited to, wage subsidy/reverse income tax and government-provided universal health care (more or less)?

    Corporate personhood should be abolished, corporate political contributions outlawed, etc. That's all well and good. All that happy horseshit? I'm for it. What I'm against is punishing corporations for hiring American workers. That's not pro-corporate; that's anti-masochism.

  44. Re:Who woulda thought... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Did you miss the part where I am in favor of DIRECT GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE TO WORKERS including

    Doesn't change the fact you went on about companies not hiring 'because there are burdens on employers' which is straight up corporatist whackjobbery.

    All that happy horseshit? I'm for it.

    And you love Puerto Ricans as long as they don't move next door....

  45. By choice my ass by tsa · · Score: 1

    Many free agents aren't free by choice. There is just no other way to earn money.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  46. Third Wave by Doctrinsograce · · Score: 1

    I was a self-employed contractor for over 20 years of my 45 year career. Alvin Toffler in 1980 had predicted contracting to become part of what he called "the electronic cottage." In Information Systems, it began to be much harder to stay continually under contract after the major financial adjustments at the end of the last century. Mores the pity, I think. Instead of investing in high speed transit systems, why aren't we investing in higher bandwidth internet? Imagine the problems it we face today that would be addressed with the latter. But perhaps I am getting off topic.

  47. Re:Who woulda thought... by Shane_Optima · · Score: 1

    Witness the modern American liberal, supporting centrist masochistic dogshit just because the Republicans hate it, instead of supporting something that would actually help workers.

    We live in a capitalistic society. You cannot just randomly hurt corporations and expect workers to automatically benefit. Taxation and redistribution should in theory be a more left-wing thing to support, but no, since it would benefit the corporations as well (vs. the minimum wage status quo), we can't have that. Better that all should suffer.