Slashdot Mirror


What Airbnb Did To New York City (citylab.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: There are two kinds of horror stories about Airbnb. When the home-sharing platform first appeared, the initial cautionary tales tended to emphasize extreme guest (and occasionally host) misbehavior. But as the now decade-old service matured and the number of rental properties proliferated dramatically, a second genre emerged, one that focused on what the service was doing to the larger community: Airbnb was raising rents and taking housing off the rental market. It was supercharging gentrification while discriminating against guests and hosts of color. And as commercial operators took over, it was transforming from a way to help homeowners occasionally rent out an extra room into a purveyor of creepy, makeshift hotels.

Several studies have looked into these claims; some focused on just one issue at a time, or measured Airbnb-linked trends across wide swaths of the country. But a recent report by David Wachsmuth, a professor of Urban Planning at McGill University, zeroes in on New York City in an effort to answer the question of exactly what home sharing is doing to the city. [...] Their conclusion: Most of those rumors are true. Wachsmuth found reason to believe that Airbnb has indeed raised rents, removed housing from the rental market, and fueled gentrification -- at least in New York City. "

340 comments

  1. Fix it with some careful regulation by mysidia · · Score: 4, Interesting

    transforming from a way to help homeowners occasionally rent out an extra room into a purveyor of creepy, makeshift hotels.

    How about this: create a law that Limits the number of housing units AND number of days rented out per year which any 1 person or business is allowed to make available for short-term rent without a Hotel permit for each property --- including through any number of business partners or related entities.

    So if you're a homeowner and have 1 or 2 properties which you rent out less than 80% of the year total across your properties, then FINE, allow that ---- You're allowed to have up to a total of ONE rental unit for short/temp housing accommodation (Count that includes Any and all sub-rentals across all properties that occur for a time less than 20 days) rented out 80% of the days each year, OR two housing accommodations rented out average 40% of the days per 1 year per unit, OR three housing accommodations rented out no more than average 26.67% of the days per 1 year per unit.

    (In other words: the more units that are rented out to different tenants, the fewer days you may be renting them out per year.)

    Thus if you have 3 properties in the same city Or have it rented out your properties for a combined total among your properties of more than 290 rental-days, then you're in a "Short-term accommodation business" and must have planning approval and permit your properties as Hotel space --- which if approved by Zoning includes regular inspections, and an additional Tax on each rental.

    Reasonable regulation should allow reasonable rental revenue by an ordinary homeowner BUT prevent wealthy real-estate investors or corporations from exploiting Uber to make large-scale transformations of apartments to hotel rooms, etc.

    1. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People love to invent rules for other people. The more complicated the better. If it's not working, make it more complicated, until it starts working.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    2. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already have the rules we need, they're called zoning laws, maybe you've heard of them.

    3. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by SirSlud · · Score: 3, Funny

      Simple rules for simple people.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    4. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by jonsmirl · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why is this a bad thing? It is called capitalism. Should we build a moat around NYC and keep out all of the people willing to pay more for housing in order to protect cheap rents for people already inside the moat?

      I really do get annoyed at people that try and use the government and legal system to force property owners into giving them below market rents. Haven't we learned that is a good way to turn decent neighborhoods into slums? In some cases rent control laws have reach such idiotic proportions that the landlord is actually paying the tenant to live in the unit since the rent doesn't cover the property taxes.

      Let supply and demand function without interference in order to establish a market level price.

    5. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mysidia · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People love to invent rules for other people. The more complicated the better.

      Fine. Ban all short-term leasing or sub-leasing of Apartments, Homes, or portions of an Apartment or Home on all Real-Estate, except for Commercial Units licensed as hotels.
      Do you feel that is superior?

    6. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by KixWooder · · Score: 1

      What happens when you run off the people who work the lower paying jobs? If no one below a certain amount of pay can live there, then you lose all your restaurant workers, sanitation, etc. Most people aren't going to ride the bus for an hour to work for $10/hr. They will just find another job.

      --
      I hate fat people.
    7. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by HornWumpus · · Score: 0, Troll

      We got us a mini Stalin here...protip, you don't make the rules.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by jonsmirl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Great, then the owners of those restaurants will have to pay their workers more!

      No area is going to lose all of their restaurants, etc. There is always demand for services like that. Prices will adjust and employee pay will increase. Restaurant workers in NYC already get paid triple what a restaurant worker in Alabama gets.

    9. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People love to invent rules for other people.

      Nope. People hate rules. But they hate being shat on more. So they come up with rules to stop that from happening.

    10. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by blackomegax · · Score: 1

      People commute 1-2 hours into san fran for shitty jobs. the IT bros get all the local housing.

    11. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I am intrigued at how people think to solve a problem of low quality rentals or too high rents you should legislate on completely orthogonal things like the length of the rental. If you want rents to be lower, legislate exactly that. It's called rent control. If you want rental properties to be nicer, legislate that.

      However I don't think those are good ideas at all. Resist the urge to make rules.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    12. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay Hitler.

    13. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Why is this a bad thing? It is called capitalism. Should we build a moat around NYC and keep out all of the people willing to pay more for housing in order to protect cheap rents for people already inside the moat?

      The ironic thing is that people who want keep rich people out of NYC to keep rents low also tend to be in favour of open borders migration.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    14. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Airbnb was a solution in search of a problem. You didn't need them to rent your property, Potsy....

    15. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0

      Please fuck off and die. You understand the problem, you are just intentionally trolling. So again, fuck off and die.

    16. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A good deal of the feces on the sidewalk also likely belongs to them, so San Francisco maybe isn't the best example.

    17. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by edtice1559 · · Score: 2

      Rules are only useful if they can be enforced. Rental units are being diverted to ghost hotels. If you add rent controls the diversion will increase until most every building is a ghost hotel. AirBNB is a very effective tool for skirting the rules disguised as a legitimate platform which is why it gets so much attention.

    18. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you want rents to be lower, allow people to build more housing. Rent control doesn't fix anything.

    19. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      I don't agree. What else are those people supposed to do? Go hungry?

    20. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Hal_Porter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Milton Friedman on price controls

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Nobel prize winner Milton Friedman said "We economists don't know much, but we do know how to create a shortage. If you want to create a shortage of tomatoes, for example, just pass a law that retailers can't sell tomatoes for more than two cents per pound. Instantly you'll have a tomato shortage. It's the same with oil or gas."

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    21. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The market will sort it out. Business will have to increase wages (or replace low wage employees with robots), etc.

    22. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Great, then the owners of those restaurants will have to pay their workers more!

      . . . or switch to robots. Robots, unlike a New York or Paris waiter, can be programmed to act polite.

      Restaurant workers in NYC already get paid triple what a restaurant worker in Alabama gets.

      . . . your average New Yorker will snarkily respond with, "The food in the City tastes three times better than food in Alabama!"

      Chitterlings with grits, indeed.

      This just in! Trump to announce 25% tariffs on imported H1-Bs! Film at eleven . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    23. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Why is this a bad thing? It is called capitalism.

      Wow! You asked a question and answered it in the very next sentence!

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    24. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People love to invent rules for [society]

      That's what you do when you see a problem. You curb it. Hell, people "invented rules" about privatizing the commons, and we got an agricultural revolution. People also "invented rules" about having to serve black people the same as white people in a restaurant. Rules can be forces for good.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    25. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Build more housing. Housing is fungible. Developers are happy to build housing for the filthy rich and the rich and the non-poor, if cities chose to be helpful about it. That makes the so-so housing the poor need more affordable, as recent college grads earning 6 figures are not forced to bid for the nicest of those same units.

      I am not sure about NYC, but SF could easily build a lot more housing than it has. It is doing vastly more than in the past, but it is still much much less than what could be done.

      I more than sympathize with the non-rich having it rough in these cities. IMNSHO SV is on the cusp of enormous local inflation, as the number of workers who are willing and able to work the less well paying jobs is growing very slowly compared to the demand. $10/hour is a joke. There are a dozen businesses I drove by on my short commute who cannot fill jobs for $15/hour. What is going to happen is businesses will be forced to both increase wages and prices. But broad increases in prices will make the area even more unaffordable. The poor might sleep more per room, but they still need to eat. We could easily see a sudden constriction of the low-wage sector as prices shift.

    26. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      What happens when you run off the people who work the lower paying jobs? If no one below a certain amount of pay can live there, then you lose all your restaurant workers, sanitation, etc. Most people aren't going to ride the bus for an hour to work for $10/hr. They will just find another job.

      Well, I guess if a normal, non-overregulated system worked...those living with high rents would get tired of not having place to go to, since there wouldn't be any low pay workers..and start moving out.

      Then, rents would go down, more low pay people would move back, and get jobs...and the cycle would keep rolling.

      The system tries to get to equilibrium, and you'd see swings, sure like now, but in the long run, things will balance themselves out.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    27. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      Let supply and demand function without interference in order to establish a market level price.

      In order to let supply and demand function, supply has to function. And that's really a problem in big cities like New York with lots of "quality of life" regulations that make it difficult to create new housing. San Francisco faces this problem, Washington, DC faces this problem. So perhaps it's no surprise that these three cities are the most expensive cities in the United States to live in?

      You could, of course, take it as a clear sign that those "quality of life" regulations are working.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    28. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Societies are built on rules. It's a fact of life and living around people. The problem is all of the retarded Libertarians and fucktard Republicans who simply live by the mantra "fuck you and yours, I got mine". Unfortunately good societies can't operate that way for too long before they collapse.

    29. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by eth1 · · Score: 2

      Wouldn't it be much simpler (and closer to the original spirit of AirBnB) to just say you need a hotel permit for short-term rentals at any non-owner-occupied property?

    30. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 3, Interesting

      People love to invent rules for [society]

      That's what you do when you see a problem. You curb it. Hell, people "invented rules" about privatizing the commons, and we got an agricultural revolution. People also "invented rules" about having to serve black people the same as white people in a restaurant. Rules can be forces for good.

      I've spent a significant part of my career making rules. Good, clear, unambiguous, effective and enforceable rules are usually not trivial to create and deserve at lot of thought and review. This is slashdot, People fantasize about new rules for breakfast.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    31. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mlw4428 · · Score: 1

      Huh. Is that why wages for the vast majority of the middle and lower class people have stagnated over the last 40some odd years while the value of the dollar has gone down?

    32. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zoning laws ...ahahaha...payoffs and bribes.

      How about, if you dislike what your neighbor is doing, sue, and see if concur that he has damaged your property in some manner.

    33. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Informative

      Rent control doesn't solve the problem because it actively discourages new development, which when you have a growing population leads to housing shortages. Legislating something doesn't alter reality or prohibition would have worked, there would be no litter in parks, and Wall Street would never do anything someone finds unscrupulous.

      You also get plenty of cases where people who don't need rent control housing occupy it (and hold on to it) because it's cheaper. You also see even worse examples like the Congressman who was renting four separate rent-controlled apartments at the same time.

      There are various schools of economics and they often squabble over policies and correct courses of action for many things, but rent control is not one of them.

    34. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by jonsmirl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The root of SF's problems is decades of government interference in the housing market. Adam Smith's invisible hand would sort everything out if the government would stop holding it back. Market forces work at all levels, if there are not enough restaurants to satisfy demand prices will rise and workers will get paid more. Everything falls apart when people in the government think they are smarter than the invisible hand and enact laws supporting their social agendas. There is an obvious correlation in America with city governments that interfere with the housing market and problems in those same cities with housing the poor. In general the more the government interferes to worse it gets for the majority of the poor, select segments of the poor benefit from government interference, but those not selected get hurt a lot more.

    35. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You feel zoning laws are useless, and would not object to having a coal-burning plant beside your property? I mean, all you have to do is prove they've harmed you directly if you don't like it, right?

    36. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >Rent control doesn't solve the problem because it actively discourages new development

      I agree. I did state that I don't think it's a good idea. That's because it's not a good idea.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    37. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      I really do get annoyed at people that try and use the government and legal system to force property owners into giving them below market rents. Haven't we learned that is a good way to turn decent neighborhoods into slums? In some cases rent control laws have reach such idiotic proportions that the landlord is actually paying the tenant to live in the unit since the rent doesn't cover the property taxes.

      Let supply and demand function without interference in order to establish a market level price.

      So using property as a hotel, when it is not zoned for hotel usage, in order to obtain higher rents is A-OK, and those people who are wanting apartment stock to be used as apartments are trying "use the government and legal system to force property owners into giving them below market rents"?

      Have you ever noticed that staying in hotels, even week-to-weeks, is far more expensive than monthly rent?

      Yes, that is the differential that is being complained of. And it's only "interference in the free market" in the sense that I can't move in nextdoor to you and run a hotel, a convenience store, or a grow-op that might motivate me to pay a higher price for the same property.

    38. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then just create an LLC per property that owns the property. Now you have unlimited rentals!

    39. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by jonsmirl · · Score: 1

      Wow, someone who stayed awake during economics class!

    40. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because what the US really needs is more litigation?

    41. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by spongman · · Score: 3

      This is what San franciscodid. It's removing even more units from the rental market.

    42. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Yes, lets give all the power of renting property to corporations. I can't tell if you are a fascist or a communist. I suppose at the extreme end there isn't much difference.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    43. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why is this a bad thing? It is called capitalism.

      No, this is a new and quite skewed form of capitalism ... because it's one or two companies pooling vast numbers of private renters, for which there is no analog.

      It's not like one entity bough a large amount of properties and then rented them, this is basically collecting a bunch of people and saying "hey, if you all rent your properties and give us a cut, we'll all be rich". The owners effectively provide the capital to what is effectively some tech people ... but the tech people do very little to earn their cut.

      Let supply and demand function without interference in order to establish a market level price.

      Ah, you've totally bought into all of the lies, so therefore will be irrational.

      The problem is the "market" is a disparate bunch of greedy assholes, all of whom would probably lie, cheat, and steal to maximize profits. The market doesn't arrive at optimum solutions because the players are dishonest and the consumers have imperfect information.

      What you're saying effectively "we should let assholes like Donald Trump set the price of real estate".

      The reality is, unfettered capitalism is bad for society. Sure, it makes some people rich, but it also chews up everyone else and grinds them to dust. We're all tired of being at the mercy of rich assholes, and having policies which is designed to profit them at the expense of everyone.

      There is no free market. There never has been, and there never will be. What's idiotic is expecting the market to achieve any outcome other than "the greediest and most unscrupulous wins the game".

      In countless cities, AirBnB has the effect of making housing more scarce and un-affordable. I've heard stories of condos where exactly one owner lives there, and the rest just rent them. This harms the people who actually live in that city, so that a small number of people can profit off tourists ... and actually removes rental properties from the market.

      Turning property zoned for residential, and effectively turning it into commercial property bypasses property tax issue (your commercial property pays more than your home), and makes the units unavailable for people who need homes to live in ... effectively, AirBnB is an externality to the system which fundamentally alters the housing market.

      So, please, be welcome to pay commercial property tax after you have duly had your property re-zoned commercial instead of residential. If you want to run your apartment as a business, you should be paying the income tax, property tax, business licenses, and additional infrastructure costs for that dwelling. Otherwise, in the case of a condo, you're expecting the other owners to fund your business.

      This entire 'sharing' economy is about large companies getting other people to pay the operating costs, and in the case of AirBnB, those costs cover lots of impacts t other people. Like if they can't find a home to live in because everyone in the neighborhood is running a commercial rental without being treated as such.

      This so fundamentally alters the supply and demand equation as to provide one group of people an unfair advantage over the rest.

      This isn't a free market issue, because this is fundamentally changing the nature of the market. That has terrible outcomes for cities. The people renting out their properties are suddenly operating under different rules than everyone else. And the companies like AirBnB make money without paying any of the costs that a hotel company would normally pay.

      Sorry, no, being a tech company with an app doesn't exempt you from the rules. Not for Uber, not for AirBnB.

    44. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose they could build on all those empty blocks in NYC

    45. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not an argument. Why do you feel people converting residential property to commercial shouldn't have to zone it as such, and where do you draw the line? Am I allowed to convert my home into an auto repair shop? How about a scrap yard? Please list all commercial ventures I'm allowed to pursue and which I am not, and your reasons for deciding such.

    46. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by dmatos · · Score: 1

      Neat. I'm gonna go start five numbered corporations, of which I'm the sole shareholder, and buy five properties to put on the short-term rental market. Thanks for your legislation.

      --

      It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
      --Scott Adams
    47. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Good, clear, unambiguous, effective and enforceable rules are usually not trivial to create and deserve at lot of thought and review.

      This is true

      his is slashdot, People fantasize about new rules for breakfast.

      First, talking about rules is how you do a lot of thought and review. Secondly, most of what happens on Slashdot is describing the new rules at a very high level. Clarify, disambiguation, and enforceablity details (e.g. closing loopholes) comes later.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    48. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Obfuscant · · Score: 0
      Yes, if you pass a law that nobody can sell something above cost then there will be a shortage, simply because nobody will sell if they cannot make any profit, and must operate at a loss. Friedman's comment is stupid in that respect. Do'h, Mr. PhD economist.

      Now pass a law that nobody can sell at more than 20% margin. Is the answer quite so simple then? Of course not, since as I understand it most grocery stores operate at about 5% or so. Where is the shortage under those more reasonable price controls?

    49. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism and trying to make an investment is fine, but not for local housing. Make your investments in other things besides housing.

    50. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I've heard of them. Their why LA has an army of homeless sharing infections.

    51. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

      The argument that's used in my city is that people have a right to continue to live in the neighborhood they've been living in, even if they can no longer afford it.

      Some of our Alderman will even intervene and try to prevent a property owner from selling his property to a developer if his current tenants complain they are being priced out of the neighborhood.

      However, Macias hasnâ(TM)t sold the existing building to Plati yet because of a conflict with his tenants, who were on month-to-month leases (which have been shown to make tenants more susceptible to evictions), and paying only $500 a month in rent. After Macias gave them 30-day notices to leave the building, in late September residents, supported by the activists, vowed to fight the evictions and stopped paying rent, arguing that they needed more time to find housing in the increasingly expensive rental market of Logan Square.

      DNAinfo is reporting that First Ward alderman Joe Moreno has threatened not to approve the required zoning change for the TOD unless Macias cooperates, which would effectively block the sale of the property. âoeBy refusing to work with me on a resolution that would allow for a dignified and humane relocation of the tenants, [Macias] has chosen to pursue an opposite, heavy-handed tactic,â Moreno said in a statement to DNA. âoeBy doing so, he has revealed himself to be a bad community partner, who may no longer merit the granted city zoning privileges that are enabling the sale of his property on his terms,â Moreno said.

    52. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ban! Ban! Ban!

      I don't like this! Ban it now!

    53. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at a city like Montreal, it's super affordable because it's the rent is controlled for almost all appartements.

    54. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Canada, the biggest renting market is in Montreal, by a long shot. Much bigger than Toronto and Vancouver combined. And it's also the most affordable by far, and also the one with strict rent control. Maybe comparing tomatoes to housing and complex rules is stupid.

    55. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by blackomegax · · Score: 1

      Have you ever been there? There's no shit on any sidewalks. You're thinking of India.

    56. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zoning restrictions are creating a shortage of housing just as acute, but because it's indirect and not "price controls" people don't recognize the market distortion. (And the fact that the people who want to keep the restrictions benefit from it: existing homeowners who don't want apartments or people the wrong color in their neighborhood, and want their equity value to keep rising while others can't find a place to live.)

    57. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 1

      Here, here.

      I also enjoy use of vague terms that are generally understood by everyone, but whose exact meaning in the context is left undefined. Then, if you disagree with the argument, you can immediately be deemed an outcast.

      Like, "reasonable" or "common-sense legislation."

      To the GP, what is "reasonable legislation" or "reasonable rent revenue?"
      What constitutes a "wealthy real-estate investors or corporations?"
      Who gets to determine it?

    58. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, miss me with that commie shit.

      The root of the problem is a lack of housing, and the lack of housing comes from bad fucking housing and zoning policy. (And in this case hotel policy)

      The price of housing (Temporary or permanent) is high because there is not enough housing. Full stop.

      IF you want to fix the problem build more housing. Full stop.

      Not "historic neighborhoods". Not "character of the neighborhood" Not "Skyline beauty" Not yet another way to tell people where they can't live, what they can't build, and what they can't do with their home. Not fucking rent control.

      More. Fucking. Housing. Period.

    59. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      How about this: create a law that Limits the number of housing units AND number of days rented out per year which any 1 person or business is allowed to make available for short-term rent without a Hotel permit for each property --- including through any number of business partners or related entities.

      You clearly underestimate how easy it is to obscure the ownership of a company. I would welcome the changes necessary to make your proposed law effective though.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    60. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Yep, tear down all the cheap housing, build nice profitable condos, get around that pesky rent control (only allowed to raise rents 10% a year here) and getting that vacancy rate down to less then .1% will solve the housing problems.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    61. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Dog-Cow · · Score: 0

      A price control that doesn't control the price isn't much of a control, you stupid shit.

    62. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      People love to invent rules for other people. The more complicated the better. If it's not working, make it more complicated, until it starts working.

      Indeed. And there is an entire profession dedicated to this practice. They even refer to their firm as a "practice".

    63. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone in San Francisco disagrees with you, you know that right? Like there are maps and apps and everything plotting the sightings. They have a severe homelessness issue and refuse to do anything about it.

    64. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by dryeo · · Score: 1

      No, what those owners of restaurants will do is lobby to bring in foreign workers. Workers from someplace where $10 an hour sounds really good. Workers will be stuck paying off the fees for moving and once they've paid them off, get shipped back and replaced with new suckers. As a bonus, you can cram 10 people into a 1 bedroom apartment, charge them each a thousand bucks rent and profit even more.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    65. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which do you feel is the problem, that LA has a homeless issue or that LA doesnâ(TM)t have more affordable housing?

    66. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by erapert · · Score: 1

      Since you're so brilliant why don't you write a bunch of books about economics and educate us all?

    67. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      You don't get it you'll never get it.

    68. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Yep, build more housing, tear down those cheap apartments that were built back in the '60's for renters by giving tax breaks for building rentals and replace them with nice expensive condos. the poor can move further out and spend 3 hours commuting each way.
      If you start having problems hiring people cheaply, import some from somewhere where $8 an hour sounds really good, bonus points for using illegals as they'll be even more desperate and even easier to get rid off if they get demanding.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    69. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      The value of the dollar has gone down for one reason and one reason alone: inflation caused by the Fed overprinting dollars.

    70. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People love to invent rules for other people. The more complicated the better. If it's not working, make it more complicated, until it starts working.

      Why have rules at all? Why learn from historical precedent? Why have government at all?? Anarchy for all, because TechyImmigrant has declared from on high that, gosh, we shouldn't be thinking too hard about making rules because *mumble mumble* it's bad somehow.

      Or maybe these suggestions are borne from persons who have experience and direct knowledge of issues created by this situation, and understand that government-level coercion is necessary to head off problems down-the-line.

      Regulations will be put in place, and someone out there won't be able to make as much money using the same method anymore. We want it that way because society isn't supposed to be a free-for-all grab-bag of consequence-free profits.

      This whole situation is an end-run around existing regulations anyway, and the fact that it's happening does not automatically mean that those regulations are flawed and should be void. Market forces can actually cause real harm to a number of individuals, government regulations help prevent that harm. It's done that way because the free market has limitations and is incapable of genuinely addressing certain problems. Deal with it.

    71. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by erapert · · Score: 1

      Permit to rent your own property?
      Restrictions on where, when, and how you may build on your own property?
      License to drive your own car on the roads that your taxes paid for?
      Requirements to buy certain goods at certain prices (i.e. healthcare)?
      Inheritance tax on the money that you worked all your life for and wanted to leave to your own children?
      Restrictions on how much water your toilet can use or what kind of light bulb you can buy and sell?
      Demands that your cell phone and all your data be made available to the police at their whim?
      Police that spy on your location and intercept your communications?
      Laws that allow the government to come and take your property if they feel like it? Only if it's imminently in the public's domain of course... this power will never be abused!
      Politicians that become extremely wealthy... all on a government employee's salary... they simply made very wise investments!

      What's the matter, citizen? Don't you want to be a good citizen and support your country? You do, don't you, citizen?

      Just be grateful that you live in the freest society on the planet! Yes, the very freest and least corrupt! You're welcome.
      Now pay your taxes so we can turn around and give the money to those who don't work so they'll vote for us. There's a good lad.

    72. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People love to invent rules for other people. The more complicated the better. If it's working, make it more complicated, until it stops working.

      FTFY

    73. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should we build a moat around NYC and keep out all of the people willing to pay more for housing in order to protect cheap rents for people already inside the moat?

      Great news! NYC already has the moat! Simply need to stock the East River with alligators.

    74. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      The entire point of his comment is that this is nowhere close to brilliance. This is close to "obvious even to an idiot".

    75. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Extremes are not a good thing. Middle ground on the other hand tends to work.

    76. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      One needs not look beyond third world countries that implement capitalism without state structures capable of regulating it to find why unregulated capitalism is more economically destructive than even marxist-leninist amalgam of socialism and communism.

    77. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by tquasar · · Score: 1

      Beach area homes near me are almost all rentals.Prices are sky high. $1000.00 per week. The few owners who live there are older people who bought their homes years ago when prices were reasonable.

    78. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      So the Brazilian model, with favelas for the poor and high rises for the rich.

      Problem being that in the end, that society is shit for everyone. Obvious reasons for the poor, and rich have serious problems with poor being willing and able to apply violence to gain sustenance from the rich.

    79. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and complex rules for clever swindlers.

    80. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by GonzoPhysicist · · Score: 1

      In SF it is also the wealthy land owners who are opposed to new housing because they believe it will weaken their investments and reduce their rental income.

      --
      horror vacui
    81. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tyrannies are also built on rules, just more of them. And we have an awful lot of them.

    82. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by maestroX · · Score: 1

      People love to invent rules for other people. The more complicated the better. If it's not working, make it more complicated, until it starts working.

      Agreed, clubbing each other to death would be an ecologically prudent system.

    83. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this one of those "modded insightful ironically" things, or is slashdot really that taken over by libertarian idealistic children?

      Have fun with your anarchy! So Edgy!

    84. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the Airbnb customers felt they were being shat on, they'd spend their money elsewhere. Oh, you meant people not even involved in that transaction?

    85. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Half the stories on Slashdot anymore are about how there are too *many* low-skill workers for the new economy...now you're wondering where we'll get the workers?

    86. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well the "new economy" is a crock of shit, so I don't pay much attention to what the pundits at Slashdot have to say about it.

    87. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not "Here, here..." you moron, it's "Hear, hear."

    88. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the real world, people respond to problems via laws and regulation. The various political groups in America simply differ about what laws and regulations they want to pass.

      The ISP market is dominated by duopolies that have no incentive to lower prices. The solution? Force them to let third parties use and extend their networks. (This basically already happens with MVNOs.)

      Illegal immigration is a serious problem. The solution? Arrest the people hiring them.

      Uber runs a taxi service without a license? Arrest the drivers, impound the vehicles, and go after the executives.

    89. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mysidia · · Score: 1

      You clearly underestimate how easy it is to obscure the ownership of a company

      How about disallowing ALL companies or trusts, and saying Only individuals are allowed this special privilege to make limited short-term rentals
        of parts of their home or second home.

      "If you're sophisticated to organize a separate entity, for example, for liability protection, then you lose the special exemption and have to do it by the book with a Hotel-licensed location, which also means your property can't be in a zoned residential home or apartment complex."

    90. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This problem also exists everywhere else that has limited housing stock like San Fransisco, LA, Seattle and Vancouver BC.

      In Vancouver we've been trying to tackle this on two fronts:
      - Limit AirBnB to units that are primary residences (eg "I have a room in my oversized house that I can rent" or "my kids moved out and I need a mortgage helper")
      The problem here is that basically every single single-family detached house is now over a million and a half dollars, basically tripling in price since AirBnB.

      - Limit speculation, with the empty homes tax, so "rich" people aren't parking their cash here in the form of buying property and keeping it empty, thus making even less property available. This is happening to both shitty properties and high end condos (which only luxury shoebox condos are being built.)

      However the lack of rental controls has caused "renovictions" of residents, and their properties end up on AirBnB, or are rented back to them at three times the rate it was before. Gentrification has caused areas that had the "cheap rentals" to be replaced with garbage "luxury" condos with no amenities that the previous larger apartments had.

    91. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even better: Ban all property rights. There are no rights and no violence offences anymore. Everybody can just do as they please and be Free!!

    92. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      It will work if you lift any regulations against building as densely as the grandfathered units you're tearing down.

      It's sad how we aren't allowed to build things like we used to.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    93. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you? I can assure you that a few blocks down from where I used to live in the tenderloin definitely has a little of everything on the sidewalk... strung out druggies, mystery liquid and strong smell of piss, and yes, some poop here and there. Go toward the financial district or the ballpark, or out to the regular neighborhoods and you don't have much of that, but tenderloin definitely does.

    94. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please list all commercial ventures I'm allowed to pursue and which I am not, and your reasons for deciding such.

      Can we please stop using these types of arguments in discussions? It's like saying "Can you please clean out this Stygian stable that I have created out of my imagination?" and then waiting to claim moral superiority because the original poster can't/won't/isn't willing to spend the time to fulfill your obviously impossible task that you set up just to that you can claim that moral superiority.

    95. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by cbeaudry · · Score: 1

      Yes and the landlords have no power and cant get rid of bad tenants who dont pay.

    96. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the "progress" part of being a Progressive.

    97. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Neat. I'm gonna go start five numbered corporations, of which I'm the sole shareholder

      "For the purpose of this regulation, any short-term rental made by a partnership, corporation or trust may enjoy this allowance
      ONLY if all owners or beneficiaries are reduced to a list of individual named persons who completely assign their rental allowances
      to this organization to be used up only In a proportion equal to their proportion of ownership or interest in the assets and profits of the corporation or trust,
      And each short term rental property and the number of days per year rented out must be reported and obey the same limits as
      if made by these persons as direct joint owners of the property. In case of exceeding the allowances, these persons and the
      corporation or trust they represent shall be both separately and jointly liable for any penalty charges due to the violation."

    98. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      People love to invent rules for other people. The more complicated the better. If it's not working, make it more complicated, until it starts working.

      Rules exist because people dick each over in the absence of them, not because someone thinks they're fun.

    99. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Rakarra · · Score: 0

      Which do you feel is the problem, that LA has a homeless issue or that LA doesnâ(TM)t have more affordable housing?

      Both are problems, but offering affordable housing doesn't affect homelessness very much.

    100. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. "Because what the US really needs is more litigation?" with no additional supporting commentary isn't an argument in good faith. GGP was playing stupid games and GP gave them a stupid prize.

    101. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by dryeo · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what is happening here, replacing the old 2-3 story apartments with 10-20 story condo units. Still leaves a lot of people without a home as those condos are not rentals and much more expensive as they make good investments, investments by people who can easily afford to leave them empty or spend a couple of months a year in one.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    102. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      If the Airbnb customers felt they were being shat on, they'd spend their money elsewhere. Oh, you meant people not even involved in that transaction?

      Yes, because the people around in the area are affected by the transaction, even if they aren't one of the two parties.

    103. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Rakarra · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I'm so sorry that you were born 200 years too late to own a black person. So sorry that you were born 60 years too late to say "fuck off, darky" when a black person sat down at a lunch counter.

      So very, very sorry. It must be terrible to feel that you're living in the wrong time.

    104. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      True. And that is because "affordable housing" isn't affordable to the poor.

    105. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rent control works just fine. It literately control rents that are allowed to be charged.

    106. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Yes, lets give all the power of renting property to corporations. I can't tell if you are a fascist or a communist.

      That's not my goal..... that's a response to TechyImmigrant's complaint that "The rules are too complicated if you add exceptions to still allow homeowners to still do vacation rentals of their property while still blocking things like apartment owners converting to slipshod hotels."

      By the way: the status quo by the way is: for the most part only businesses, and people with dedicated high-value vacation properties, e.g. beachfront cottages do short-term property rentals.

    107. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      There are huge swaths of empty real estate even in the heart of Manhattan. Because they have not been built upon people use these areas to run their motor vehicles on. It's time to develop beyond the sidewalks!

    108. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by LunaticTippy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That is a beautiful way to keep prices low! I kind of like how that reduces the incentive for people to buy speculatively. It's pretty dysfunctional how remote investors have distorted prices in the sf bay area, vancouver, etc.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    109. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      There aren't enough beach area homes for everyone who wants one to have one. That is why they are so expensive. Renting them makes sense, clearly there are a lot of people willing to pay to stay by the beach for a while.

      The alternative is pretty awful, only people who were lucky enough to buy or inherit a home can have one and everyone else is locked out.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    110. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      In New York State the "Rent Stabilization Association" and their constituent landlords have always refused to "open the books" and show what the actual operating costs are for their rent stabilized apartments. Yet they continue to demand regular increases claiming "increased expenses". And the New York State legislature has said "Yes Sir!" every time.

      So your "not more than 20% margin" plan wouldn't work in the current environment.

    111. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      You couldn't be wronger. Shit is a huge problem all over. I've seen it everywhere from Nob Hill to the embarcadero but it is really bad in the grungier parts, say around 6th & market. The city and many businesses power wash their sidewalk every frickin day, and they still can't keep up with the river of shit that is unleashed on the city.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    112. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rules aren't made for their own sake. Free markets require rules, and they're also by their nature unstable - they don't magically correct themselves into an efficient system doing what it's supposed to be doing. They need constant watching and tending. And if you don't understand that then you haven't been paying attention to the economic history of this country for the last two centuries.

    113. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      They don't build new homes for poor people, they build them for rich people, and the poor get their hand-me-downs.

      Flooding the market with condos in the way you describe is a good way to keep housing prices from rising quickly.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    114. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would decreasing the the number of available rooms and making it harder and more expensive to rent out said rooms makes rental prices decrease?

    115. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because "economics" isn't a science; It is about 40% "duh" and 60% utter bullshit. I don't write books on economics because I have ethics.

      AC

    116. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's even less affordable to drug addicted shitbags who would rather get one more hit.

    117. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize there are Fascist Communists, right?

      Fascism is a measure of authoritarianism...

    118. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent counter argument. You are now, no doubt, drowning in supporters based on your very well-reasoned, unemotional response.

    119. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There ain't a "Nobel Prize in Economy". It's a scam by the Swedish Royal Bank. And this is symbolic for the whole field of economic "science": it's so dominated by the wishes of the rich as to be worthless. As science, at least.

      As a scientist myself, I feel insulted by economists calling themselves scientists.

    120. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking from experience I presume? Get some help. You can do it!

    121. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Clarification: I mean by "constriction of the low-wage sector as prices shift" that the supply of low-wage labor can decrease, in a self-reinforcing spiral.

    122. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      You seem to be following a stupidly absurd notion that such complex macro phenomena like himan society somehow could be self managed by simple rules.

      Any scientist worth of salt and familiar with even much simpler biological systems will tell you how stupid you are, an illiterate libertarian imbecile

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    123. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That simply sounds like the RSA has no legal recourse to enforce opening of the books. Throw a few of these landlords in jail for contempt until they produce the documents and things will change. And I'm a democrat suggesting such a thing! Other current environments have to operate under these type rules, so if it isn't viable in the current environment, change it.

    124. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by dryeo · · Score: 1

      A lot of the old rentals were purpose built as rentals due to tax breaks that used to be offered. Those incentives are long gone though.
      Now, it's not the building of condos that has slowed the market down to 15-16% annual increases here (Vancouver, actually I'm about 50 miles outside town where prices are going up about 33% a year, has a 0.5% vacancy rate and they're building like crazy) but things like the foreign buyers tax, harsher rules for qualifying for a mortgage, mortgages going up in price and such.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    125. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Actually I was talking about Vancouver and surroundings, which is more expensive then NYC, but the same idea.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    126. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      The RSA is a landlords' lobbying group, not a government entity. In NYC it's the Rent Guidelines Board that determines how much any increase will be. But the landlords can't be thrown in jail for contempt because there is no law requiring them to open their books.

      All that can be done is for the RGB to refuse an increase for that year, which they in fact did for the past two years (and RSA unsuccessfully sued them for doing that claiming of course that RGB didn't take into account the increased costs of being a landlord).

      This past year though an increase of 1.25% for one year leases and 2% for two year leases was granted, again with no information forthcoming from the landlords about their "increased costs".

      http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/2069/new-york-city-rent-increase

    127. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      So your "not more than 20% margin" plan

      It isn't my "plan". I was referring specifically to the quote of Friedman's that used "2 cents per pound" as a price control that creates artificial scarcity. The "20% margin" would be more realistic and not create that scarcity, while still controlling prices.

      I was not talking about rent control at all.

    128. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct sir. The economics prize isnâ(TM)t an original prize from Nobel

    129. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by ssufficool · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately you are (not so eloquently) correct about a large portion of the homeless problem. It is mostly to do with self medicating persons with mental health issues. You can't force them into rehab or to take prescription medication since it is also a civil rights issue. And around and around we go...

    130. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by SylvesterTheCat · · Score: 1

      It's not "Here, here..." you moron, it's "Hear, hear."

      Yes, you are correct. Thank you for that.

      Was it really necessary to call me a moron?
      Oh, that's right. You are a anonymous coward, so that explains it.

    131. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus

    132. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >You seem to be following a stupidly absurd notion that such complex macro phenomena like himan society somehow could be self managed by simple rules.

      Nope. Not at all. I don't think that and I didn't claim that. I was commenting on the phenomenon of people liking to make stupidly complex rules. I could also comment on the slashdotty phenomenon of people reading something to say something that was not written at all and then to make extremely offensive criticisms of the thing not written. That would be a different thread, but you brought it right to this one.

      >Any scientist worth of salt and familiar with even much simpler biological systems will tell you how stupid you are, an illiterate libertarian imbecile

      I know a few scientists and not one of them has ever called me a libertarian.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    133. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      And also the little fact that we no longer manufacture anything that any other country wants to buy. The entire international exchange value of the dollar is based on a more or less explicit threat. Sell oil in any other currency, and the Air Force will bomb your cities and massacre your people. (Obviously that threat doesn't really work against big countries like China...)

      You correctly observe the number of dollars in circulation has been steadily increasing. Yet while that was happening the economic basis of the dollar - the real economic activity the fiat currency is meant to represent - has been steadily shrinking.

      After a couple decades of this, now we're left with a hollowed out economy that is reverting back to pre-capitalist (neofeudal) forms. Ownership has become the only thing that matters - skill and labor have become comparatively worthless.

      And that's what the pious outrage over Airbnb is all about. Landowners are socially enraged that renters - goddamned deplorable plebian *renters* - are able to make money by applying labor to land.

      The law is a whore - in Soviet America we have the best justice money can buy. So I fully expect the landowners to win this battle. Airbnb won't be fully killed, it'll just be suppressed like it was in SF. Only landowners will be allowed to have an Airbnb. They'll do a shitty job and charge high prices, as is their nature.

      Some day in the future people will look because and fondly remember the golden age of Airbnb, which is/was a sort of golden age for travel. We'll look back, shake our heads, and sigh: "I remember Freedom..."

    134. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      1318: "Don't worry, God will sort it out."

      2018: "Don't worry, the Market will sort it out."

      Ahhhhhh, Progress!

    135. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Please stop talking about Adam Smith if you've never read his book. And it's quite about you (and 95% of people who talk about him) never have.

    136. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Lick those boots!

    137. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      How dare you propose an obviously-correct solution! Literally Hitler! Check your privilege!

    138. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      You know damned well that the massive inflation in house prices *preceded* Airbnb. If anything, the popularity of Airbnb may be due in part to the financial burden imposed on housing occupants by the outrageous price of land.

    139. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me tell you what others are too polite to :

      You're an annoying fuckwad contributing nothing to the conversations where you believe yourself integral. Nobody's liaising to you, nobody cares.

    140. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes actually it does. Rather than top down one size fits all solutions let courts do what they are supposed to and resolve disputes between individuals. Make lawsuits fast easy and cheap. Maybe disallow representation in civil matters below $5000

    141. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed your calling as a beuorocrat in communist USSR. Just add another regulation and tax until your countyâ(TM)s GDP implodes.

    142. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, don't need to disallow representation. People still need to be able to defend themselves effectively without knowing all the laws. We just need to cap the duration to 4 hours over 2 days max and cap legal fees for these things at 10% of the awarded value.

      Wouldn't hurt to massively simplify the law and stop letting it be written by lawyers who think more words are always better than less words.

    143. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why we need to support the use of chemtrails instead of vilifying them.

    144. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming he's over 18 and not a felon, he creates 1/300,000,000th of them federally or 1/20,000,000th of them if he lives in New York state.

    145. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite the contrary. Repealing unjust laws is not about inventing or making up rules. It is about discovering previously unknown principle of human rights, freedom and self-governance.

      Rules != principles.

      Rules are for kids, principles are for adults.

    146. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you take off that pointless garbage at the end of your sentence, you suddenly sound smart instead of just sounding like a piece of garbage.

    147. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      If he did they'd probably be closer to reality than Friedman's

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    148. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't tear down all the cheap, crappy housing all at once. It's a few buildings per year over the course of decades.

      Today's nice profitable condos are tomorrow's cheap housing; just mandate a net increase in housing stock with tear-down-and-replacement building.

      Tear down a 100-unit apartment building? The new shiny condo tower must have 150+ units. Maybe 200+.

    149. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by p0larity · · Score: 1

      Not sure what AirBnB was doing to our neighbourhood of Adachi in Japan, but it was likely the only way we could afford to live 3 months of the year in Japan. Our tiny apato was $1500/month. We didn't need to hand over key money or do anything super complicated as you usually would renting in Japan. It removed all of the friction and provided us with a nice space to live.

      Only problem was the fsck-ing NHK dude who came by. :)

      That and Adachi was supposedly a bad neighbourhood. In contrast to north america it was just... a gray neighbourhood and it happened to have a prison. Oh... and lots of younger families.

    150. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's so completely not true, I had to reread your statement. I think you must have been in a hurry or you would have noticed: rent control obviously "fixes" one thing, which is the speed and magnitude (I guess that's velocity, then) of rent hikes. It really does that! I lived my first 40 years in NYC, and benefited from Rent Stabilization (the less generous to the renter and kinder to the landlord) iteration of Rent Control. Some form of this allowed people of more modest means to live in the city, and it's what made the city a Mecca for artists and creatives.
      That of course is what made the city attractive for the children of the rich. Which made it more desperate for the landlords to find ways around the rules. One favorite way is to do repairs and renovations in such a terrible way that tenants complain; then the building inspectors declare that the tenants are right! And the building is condemned. Hurray! The landlord gets to kick everyone out.
      So if you MEANT to say, "Rent control doesn't fix anything permanently..." you might have had a case. But I don't think that's a reasonable criterion. Nothing is ever fixed permanently. So a medium to long term fix, which rent controls were, will have to do. By that measure, they did great.
      And, you know what? If landlords don't think they can make enough of a killing in NYC, they should feel free to get into another line of business. I hear coal mining is very attractive.

    151. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Is that 20% margin across all industries? How are you calculating margin? Because most ways people calculate it, you're going to see every pharma company leave your country. Even a lot of other industries would leave or be severely reduced. You'd lose so much investment money.

      Something else you're ignoring is that margins across products within the same store often vary widely. Soda, for instance, almost always has a really high margin, while other products may be sold at or near (including under) cost, to get people in the door, and the high margins on other products means the overall margin is enough to stay in business.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    152. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      And yet, people still call for price controls. Rent control and required affordable housing (and the tortuous building approval process) is a huge reason the SF housing market is the way it is.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    153. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      As another scientist, I think you're partially right about macroeconomics but wrong about microeconomics. Both have some situations where models make testable predictions and, when applied correctly, make reasonably accurate forecasts. Econ is a hell of a lot better than most of sociology and psychology, at least.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    154. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      People hate rules when they have no control over them. Many people love inventing rules to control other people.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    155. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 2

      Total manufacturing output in America has been steadily rising. Jobs, however, have been falling, as the average manufacturing worker is now more productive.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    156. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Your statement is missing "lack of" at the start of second sentence, and then it's factually correct.

    157. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      There is a role for AB&B. Several businesses need consultants, architects, construction workers for a few months at a time. Hotel costs are prohibitive. Motels are not geared to provide house comforts. The AB&B rental provides an affordable home for 5 for a few months, which include kitchen, laundry, bedrooms with clean linen, and parking. This works out well, for communities where there is no housing shortage. Yes AB&B is an affordable choice.

      There is a second and third category of visitor -- Religious and parental. For the second, some individuals want to be near a specific religious community, near the specialty food (kosher/halal) stores, and for access to temples/mosques.

      Regarding parental user of AB&B, the modern lifestyle has children relocating to chase a career. When there is a birth, the parents want to be near the mother and grandchild. These grandparents will book a place for a week to a month. I know of parents who came from Europe to North America to help the daughter.

      Finally, there is the tourist. If affordable AB&B facilities was not available, people would remain at home. Tourists want safe clean accommodations, and often chose locations where the language and culture are different from their own.

      Even where there is a housing shortage, there is a role for AB&B. I have seen the situation where UBER/Lyft availability encourages AB&B visits. That was not mentioned by anyone else so for.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    158. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Good, clear, unambiguous, effective and enforceable rules are usually not trivial to create and deserve at lot of thought and review.

      This is true

      his is slashdot, People fantasize about new rules for breakfast.

      First, talking about rules is how you do a lot of thought and review. Secondly, most of what happens on Slashdot is describing the new rules at a very high level. Clarify, disambiguation, and enforceablity details (e.g. closing loopholes) comes later.

      My time writing rules was spent in international standards development where there are a few hundred engineers reviewing your words. In English it is easy to unwittingly be ambiguous. I did a lot of rewording the rules to be unambiguous and clear. Avoiding words like 'it', use of 'and' and 'or' in ways that could be taken as boolean or non boolean ands and ors, the use of 'or' that could be taken as exclusive-or or inclusive-or and lots of other ambiguous forms.

      Also the semantic content needed to make sense, be consistent with the rest of the document, be enforceable, testable, and have a direct purpose.

      With a few years of practice, it becomes easy.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    159. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mysidia · · Score: 1

      The AB&B rental provides an affordable home for 5 for a few months

      A rental for more than 15 days or so with meals is not a "short-term rental" --- that's more like real temporary housing than "repurposing housing as hotel space to take business travelers for a high $$ profit to detriment of the local community", and units which are primarily rented out for only a minimum of longer than 2 weeks at a time are not at the risk of becoming "ghost hotels".

    160. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by mysidia · · Score: 1

      AirBNB is a very effective tool for skirting the rules disguised as a legitimate platform which is why it gets so much attention.

      Companies like AirBNB can be specifically regulated by the states as well; Specifically, if they match Owners and Renters and perform any payment processing or taking any cut, the state can define them as "Brokering the rental of property within their state," and next, when the state passes rules limiting short-term rentals of Apartments/residential units, they can also pass a regulation requiring all "Brokers of Short-term rentals" to digitally submit an Annual data report for each property to the state and to internally Enforce the state's limits ---- regarding Number of Properties and Days per Year a PERSON or Person's company can make available without a Hotel license on each property, and impose Large financial penalties should AirBNB fail to enforce the limits, And making the companies such as AirBNB Jointly liable with the property owners for any violations they facilitate.

    161. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure they *can* do these things but the reality is that if the states are ever effective at this, AirBNB will be out of business. And so far companies like AirBNB, Uber, et cetera, have managed to frustrate any attempts to regulate them. The regulatory framework just can't keep up. It's not just AirBNB where this is a problem. People will find ways to skirt the rules and AirBNB has an incentive to turn a blind eye. I own four units but don't rent on AirBNB. The state regulators would never catch me but the HOAs would know within minutes. I have eight nieces and nephews though and it woudln't be hard to run eight properties through AirBNB without the state catching on. If AirBNB wanted to enforce the rules that would be much harder (Hey why do these eight listings in the same town from eight different people all come from the same IP address?) But as long as AirBNB is helping the hotel operators hide from the regulators, the lawlessness will continue. In order for this to abate, some state attorney general would have to decide to use RICO charges or something.

    162. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      San Francisco has some of the strongest rent controls in the US, and the required affordable housing distorts incentives. This piece does a pretty good job of explaining it.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    163. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      This statement is true, but it doesn't interact with my point in any way. I'm not suggesting that there's little to no rent controls in the area. I'm suggesting that current rent controls are insufficient.

      Or are you suggesting that the real estate boom in the area is comparable to the rest of US? Because that is the suggestion needed to make the argument I think you're making.

    164. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Sure. And the Soviet Union had record harvests during Stalin's famines, according to official statistics. But you don't really believe that, do you?

    165. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Of course not, but this is much easier to independently verify, and there's no reason to think that the numbers presented are substantially inaccurate. There was plenty of reason to think that Stalin's grain harvest numbers were a complete fiction, as evidenced by all the starving people. It's just a really weak argument.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    166. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      And I'm saying that rent controls there have actively made the problem worse by preventing unit remodeling and discouraging investment in new buildings. Because rent control holds so many places under market value, the lost revenue has to be made up somewhere else, like new units (if they can get built, which is another problem) or via new leases. And it's not (just) a case of greedy landlords - property values and taxes are extremely high there as well, and rent control often means rent doesn't keep up with increased property value.

      Clearly the real estate market there is much higher than the rest of the US, but - as the article I linked to explains - supply has been severely constrained by a number of factors, one of which is rent control.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    167. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Alternative view: rent controls kept the lid on the worst abuses, but were insufficient to tackle the problem because they weren't harsh enough.

      Evidence: rent control schemes working elsewhere. Primary measure of effectiveness is strictness of the rules in relation to overheating of the market. In this case, they're clearly not strict enough, as market is extremely overheated.

    168. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      I see you haven't spent much time in the former manufacturing regions. The Rust Belt has an ongoing 30 year economic depression. The factories are literally in ruins.

      All of which you will never never NEVER here a semi-official media outlet report. One must assume any mainstream reporter to mention the topic without using approved (euphemised, misdirected) language would be swiftly purged from the nomenklatura.

      That's unsurprising. Our masters and their sycophants demonstrate complete unwillingness to admit the ruinous effects of their economic policies on the people.

      It would be likewise unsurprising if the official statistics willfully misrepresent the steep decline of American industrial output.

    169. Re: Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      I grew up in the Rust Belt. I know what the area is like. The jobs aren't there. Nevertheless, total output has risen, because most of our factories now are so highly automated.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    170. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      You could make that argument. However, normally in places with rent control schemes, building new units isn't nearly as hard as it is in SF. Rent control exacerbates shortages in the long term but do curb abuses in the short term. That only gets you so far though, especially with such an unusually high population growth and severe limits on adding additional housing. Making rent controls more strict without fixing the supply problem will only make things worse.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    171. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Which brings us to "insufficient rent controls" problem, as rent control systems are usually coupled with building of subsidized housing.

    172. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Building subsidized housing can also make the issue worse, as the article I posted explains. Did you even read it? And I would hardly count building of subsidized housing as a form of rent control.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    173. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      To suggest that "building more houses that are rented to the worse off people" does not control rent by reducing the demand on housing is patently absurd. The primary reason why rent goes up is because there's more demand than supply. By reducing demand and increasing supply, you affect the very basis of pricing.

      As for the rest of it, you can always spin the numbers in the other direction, as the article does. Reality is, rent controls and subsidised housing exist not only outside SF, they even exist outside US. They even exist outside North American continent. And when applied correctly, they work.

    174. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look up 'rent seeking' and be enlightened. Rents go up because rich people have more money than you do and like to keep it that way.

    175. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You actually conflated "rent seeking" in the economics terminology with actual real estate rentals in light of rent controls. Wow. That is top tier ignorance.

    176. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You show your continuing ignorance at every turn don't you. Do you even know what the term means? Think of a relevant example that comes to mind.
      Not sure how many more breadcrumbs I can leave for you to follow...

    177. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Forcing people to build houses or units that are rented far below market value instead of non-price-controlled units is a disincentive to increase supply, so supply grows more slowly than it otherwise would. In addition, it raises the rent on the units that are not earmarked as "affordable", thus making two distinct housing markets - the small, extremely difficult to get "affordable" housing that nobody wants to build because it loses money, and the really expensive units that everybody who doesn't meet some narrow criteria and/or is unlucky has to put up with. IF they could build a lot of "affordable" housing, then rents could go down - but because supply is so constrained, and the affordable housing is so far below market value, they exert an upward influence on the rest of the new housing.

      You keep saying rent control solves problems, but you're not showing a lot of evidence for it.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    178. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You once again are suggesting that "rest of the world, every single case where it works regardless of location" is not evidence.

      Instead you suggest that libertarian hypotheses that you're spouting are somehow correct, even though in real world reduction in rent controls in relation to overheated real estate market is known to have severely negative consequences.

    179. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      I'm saying you haven't shown any specific cases where rent control has been shown to work in a situation like the one in SF, and just saying "it works, trust me" isn't an argument. There are plenty of economists on both sides of the aisle that think rent control has significant limitations in its ability to correct markets in general, let alone a weird case like SF. And your suggestion that it works in every single case is ludicrous.

      You can throw around whatever assumptions you have about my hypotheses you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you're asserting a lot of stuff without any evidence.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    180. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Literally, every case when it works. You can pick one, worldwide. There are enough examples so that if you threw a dart at the map of the big cities in the world's more developed cities, you're likely to hit one.

    181. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Great, then it shouldn't be hard for you to pick one so you can back up your assertions. If you aren't going to do that - actually make an argument - then I think we're done here.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    182. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Ok. My home nation of Finland.

      Are you done being pointlessly pedantic?

    183. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Finland, where rent control in the private market was gradually abolished in the 1990s? It seems as though currently in Finland, tenants can appeal to the court if they think a rent increase is unreasonable, but otherwise increases should be stipulated in the contract. There are voluntary guidelines but those aren't rent control either. Sweden, on the other hand, has fairly strict national rent control, and has a national shortage of housing while having similar rent-to-income ratios as Finland (second link). In Helsinki, large amounts of land set aside for public housing has contributed to insufficient housing supply, in addition to the long wait lists for said public housing.

      Let's also not ignore the fact that Finland's population growth rate is significantly lower than that of San Francisco's, and has many fewer restrictions on constructing new dwellings.

      Look, I'm not saying rent control is always bad, just that when it's combined with other policies like it is in SF, it can make the problem worse. Rent control (here we're talking about regulations on rent, not constructing more affordable housing) reduces supply. When you already have high population growth (and that growth is primarily people with higher incomes), a really burdensome and uncertain process to get approval to and then start building, a reduction in supply is the last thing you want. Overregulation or misregulation can be just as bad as underregulation.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    184. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      No idea where people you're citing getting their ideas. For example the second link literally limits itself to "private market only" ignoring the fact that primary form of rent control in Finland is ARA building affordable rent-controlled rental housing which gets priority in zoning. Private market then has problems with keeping tenants beyond short term if government sponsored actors consistently provide cheap housing across the area. Focusing on just one aspect makes you ignore reality as a whole, as that study does. ARA is still there. Asumistuki is still there and is in fact biggest ever in history this year, mainly due to compensating for increase in low wage earners who need it to afford rent. Laws regulating apartment rentals are still there. Mandated building of cheap rental housing in big cities in the same place as expensive property housing is still there. It's the main reason why Finland hasn't followed Sweden in the ghettoisation of the muslim immigrants. They don't get isolated because cheap rental apartments for which people in worst social position, i.e. migrant families are in the same area as expensive private properties and rental buildings.

      Let's not forget that Helsinki metro area is growing very fast, and free market rental pricing is growing so fast, that KELA uses literally a separate pricing chart to determine the size of asumistuki in the region, and separate pricing for other major cities, and separate for everyone else. So yes, rent is high because of the growth in private sector. But at the same time Helsinki is a case of insiffucient rent controls, and there have been political moves to tighten rent controls through increase of public offerings and legal restrictions on what can be offered for rent.

      Your continued insistence that rent control can only be legal restrictions on costs is simply silly. Rent control is a process of limiting both pricing and rights that private land lords have over tenants. Direct legal limitations are the "tool of last resort". Before that there are things like subsidies on more new construction of buildings that receive assistance from government and get preferential zoning treatment that have capped rent for example, or various forms of monetary assistance to the poorest to push them to the level of others in rent-paying ability.

    185. Re:Fix it with some careful regulation by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      That's not the way the term is used in the US/English, so I suspect that's one reason why we've been arguing. Usually it does mean direct legal limitations on either rent or rent increases over time, and the building of low-income housing would simply fall under housing policy or housing projects. I suspect the authors of those studies also were using the term in this way, which is why they focused on the private market. If you include building subsidized housing as a form of rent control, then I agree it could help SF.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
  2. Just replace 'New York City'... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wIth the phrase "New Orleans", and you would have the same story.

  3. NYC has always been expensive and creepy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's kind of like the Gotham TV show. Crowded, dystopian, dark, usually crappy weather.

    Why anyone lives their is beyond my ken.

    1. Re: NYC has always been expensive and creepy by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      When I lived there, I often felt a great deal of the poverty and suffering the world emanates from Lower Manhattan, like some sort of diabolical radiation.

  4. Gee, live in a city. . . by Salgak1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    . . . that restricts the supply of new housing, and has strong rent-control in place, and people are SURPRISED that property owners will find a way to to generate revenue, and then optimize that revenue ??

    1. Re:Gee, live in a city. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rent control is not in place for a meaningful number of people, nor has it been for decades. Nor is there a effort to "restrict" supply of new housing. I take it you have never been to NYC and like to talk about things you have no information about?

    2. Re:Gee, live in a city. . . by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      Been there many times, lived in Jersey for years. But there's only so much land available, and the stock of housing is not increasing meaningfully. To build new requires astronomical real estate costs. Economics and regulation combine to restrict supply. . .

    3. Re:Gee, live in a city. . . by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Rent control is not necessarily the problem, I agree with you there, but a symptom of a much larger problem. Cities restrict housing development for local political reasons -- mostly anxious middle class families who go NIMBY to protect their house value. Then rent control becomes "necessary". Most cities could easily build much more housing. Maybe that is not true about Manhattan but it is certainly true about Greater NYC as a whole.

    4. Re:Gee, live in a city. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ........."Economics and regulation combine to restrict supply". . ............. Somehow you are implying that the NYC government is colluding with "Economics" in some grand cabal to restrict supply???? Having lived there for years I don't think I ever saw anything more than a 6 foot wide stretch not developed. The only weird/nonsensical rules I am aware of are height limited in areas of the lower east/west sides Even those are staunchly advocated for by the locals there. It fits more of a "gated community HOA policy" than a concerted effort by a government entity to control.

  5. It doesn't sound right... by OpenSourced · · Score: 1

    You cannot gentrify globally. Not enough gentry, I'd say.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
    1. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't gentrify forever. There are a limited supply of white people. Eventually you run out.

    2. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use all you want. We'll breed more. . .

      Love, the Mormons

    3. Re:It doesn't sound right... by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's one of those inane things that's just used to complain. If well off white people are moving in to a neighborhood it's gentrification. If they're moving out it's white flight. I'm sure if they stayed in place long enough, some term would be created to castigate them for that as well.

    4. Re: It doesn't sound right... by Type44Q · · Score: 0

      There are white people and then there are white people.

    5. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      You cannot gentrify globally. Not enough gentry, I'd say.

      If the gentry has enough cash to justify owning a place in every major city they may want to spend time in (or have for bragging rights), then you certainly can gentrify globally. And that seems to be the case.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    6. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Solandri · · Score: 2

      You cannot gentrify globally. Not enough gentry, I'd say.

      Yes you can. In fact that's the whole point of a market economy - to make money (increase productivity per capita) by improving the efficiency by which resources (including housing and labor) are assigned and used. We used to live in stone caves with dirt floors. Now most of us live in constructed homes where we feel compelled to buy vacuum cleaners to keep the floors clean. That's gentrification.

      Economics is not a zero sum game. You can find localized instances where it's zero sum or negative sum due to manipulation by market winners (e.g. monopolies) or overzealous regulation (e.g. rent control). But on balance, increased trade means increased productivity per capita, and a higher average standard of living. Where do you think the middle class came from? Before, it used to be just peasants and nobles.

    7. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're poor. We're talking about making affordable rent for people who only make 60k a year. You're just thinking about people poorer than yourself.

    8. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gentrification is caused by property taxes, especially by over-estimating property value. Poor neighborhoods look like crap not because the people are too poor to clean them up, but because if they clean them up, they are required to pay higher property taxes as their homes get estimated higher. This is why neighbors resent new people moving in who repair the outside of their homes and paint with nice colors. Eventually, the taxes raise to the point where they have to move out of their homes which might have been ancestral. But the cause isn't the "gentry" moving in, it's the government raising taxes for no good reason. A layer of paint and picking up trash in the lawn shouldn't be worth a doubling of the property taxes.

    9. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now most of us live in constructed homes where we feel compelled to buy vacuum cleaners to keep the floors clean.

      Well you can live in your own filth if you want to. Most people don't really appreciate it, though.

      Captcha: boggling

    10. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The only "ancestral" homes in the U.S. are tepees.

    11. Re:It doesn't sound right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and that's where the rich are taking us back to as fast and as hard as they can - owners and workers.

  6. Regulations were made for a reason by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and I do wish we could get folks to understand that. Cities didn't limit hotels to "Preserve the Character of the neighborhood" or some other hippy crap. They did it to stop this kind of rent seeking garbage. People have to live where the jobs and rich folk know that. So they can pay damn near anything because they know they can rent it back to somebody and make a profit. Sure there are limits, but they're frighteningly high.

    This crap should just be shut down. Just like this crap was shut down when I was a kid and we called it sub-letting.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re: Regulations were made for a reason by levicivita · · Score: 1

      What is rent seeking about disposing of your personal property as you see fit ? If I own a single family home I expect to be able to do with it whatever I damn please.

    2. Re: Regulations were made for a reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My mortgage says differently, as do several covenants on the land from the 19th century.

    3. Re:Regulations were made for a reason by Agripa · · Score: 1

      They did it to stop this kind of rent seeking garbage.

      They did it to facilitate the rent seeking garbage of existing land owners who want to see their property values increase by limiting availability. Shortages are good for them.

    4. Re: Regulations were made for a reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What is rent seeking about disposing of your personal property as you see fit ? If I own a single family home I expect to be able to do with it whatever I damn please.

      So you are saying you have the right to conduct nuclear weapon tests on your property? You did say 'whatever I damn please'? What about just creating loud noise levels on your property? Or light pollution? Or using toxic chemicals in your hobby, which drift into your neighbor's home or poison their water?

      No.

      Societies have limited what human beings can do with their property for centuries. There are many such limits - and most are reasonable in concept, though sometimes not in the details. For example, all civilized societies recognize some form of the right to roam - and those with competent government and an ethical legal profession have strong rights in this area (that naturally excludes the USA). Private property is not absolute.

      The government is a party to any contract - and as such it can and should limit the terms of the contract. Note that this doesn't necessarily imply price fixing - that's a bad idea in most situations, and rent control based on price fixing is a complete disaster. But rent control that limits the ability of the rent to increase from year to year, once a price is agreed upon, for a period of time is reasonable. Accepting this is part of the price of doing business - if you don't like it, move somewhere else.

  7. Studies by 110010001000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The problem with these types of studies is you will never know if they are correct or not, because there is no way to see what would have happened if Airbnb never came to NYC. Maybe it would have gentrified faster without Airbnb. NYC was gentrifying way before Airbnb came to the city. Of course, speculation is now presented as fact. That will make the funders of this study (the hotel industry) happy though, and that is what this is all about anyway. They can now push to get Airbnb out of NYC.

    1. Re:Studies by AmazingRuss · · Score: 1

      Airbnb does inject a bit of riffraff, if only temporarily. This should slow the gentrification.

    2. Re:Studies by q_e_t · · Score: 2

      There are attempts to model tings like this via agent-based modelling, validating against other cities. The error bars can be pretty big, though.

    3. Re:Studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BS
      I live in a small outdoorsy resort town that already has a lack of affordable housing.

      Speculators ran all over town and bought up any condo/townhouse/whatever they could get their hands on and turned it into AirBnB.

      Now only better off people can afford to buy something in town, and all of the rental places that lower income people rented or bought before are no longer available.

      Something like 25% of the housing in town is AirBNB now. its fucked up. Its not good.

    4. Re:Studies by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Ummm, you mean compare it BEFORE they showed up....or to other areas that don't have it. Yeah those tenant advocacy organizations are just real bastards for wanting this study...

      "This report was commissioned by the Hotel Trades Council, AFL-CIO, and is cosponsored by a number of New York City community, housing and tenant advocacy organizations, including:

      New York Communities For Change,

      Housing Conservation Coordinators,

      Goddard Riverside Law Project,

      St. Nick’s Alliance,

      Cooper Square Committee,

      Mobilization for Justice (formerly MFY Legal Services),

      West Side Neighborhood Association, and

      the Hell’s Kitchen Neighborhood Association

    5. Re:Studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AirBnB takes an already-limited supply of long-term rental units off the market, so of course it contributed to rising rents ... by the number of units that would otherwise have been long-term rentals or owner-occupied condos. Of course some units wouldn't have been long-term rentals in the first place; e.g., extra bedrooms, but I'm taking about units that were bought just to put on AirBnB.

      "Gentrification" is an umbrella term for several things, only one of which is rising rent, so its relationship to AirBnB is more complicated and probaby not worth discussing. If as you say gentrification might have been stronger without AirBnb, what factor could cause that? What gentrification pressure would be stronger without AirBnB? The same number of people would be moving to New York; the same neighborhoods would become desirable to the same extent. Or do you think that AirBnB somehow exaacerbates both of those? Why would it do that?

    6. Re: Studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not good for you, maybe. Ask the local merchants how they feel about the permanent influx of tourists who couldn't find enough rooms in the past.

  8. Hey cool!! by karolgajewski · · Score: 1

    Not like this is a surprise to anyone, but it's nice to get a set of data, rather than isolated anecdotes.

    It would also be difficult to tout a report that is a leaflet that states "duh!"

    --
    - .k. -
  9. Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are going to pass housing regulations that are totally against 'market demand' dynamics thus driving up pricing of housing & especially hotel room pricing don't go blaming AirBnb for the result.

    New York's problems are New York's problems of their own making, don't blame Airbnb for this or come crying to the rest of the country.

    Get rid of rent control in the first place, nobody has a 'right' to live in NY or anywhere else. I got out of the SF Bay Area for many reasons but 'housing/rental prices' is one of them.

    Hell why not just blame this all on Taylor Swift apparently she's buying up property all over the place.

    1. Re:Boo Hoo by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      We have rent control in the bay area too. San Jose still operates rent control on buildings built and occupied before 1979. And it takes some pretty elaborate measure for the rent control to be removed from the property, so I was one of the lucky people to move to the area in the 90's and benefit from that program.

      Rent control, as implemented in San Jose, doesn't make the rent lower than every place else. It is more like a dampener to price fluctuations. You aren't out of your apartment in a year because they added another $400/mo to your rent on your next lease, unlike what I experienced in Campbell ($800->$1200).

      It's not really so much about giving people some imaginary "right" to live in a particular city (like NY). It's about having neighborhoods that aren't full of transient workers. If you think a town of transients and migrant works at every income level is a nice place to be, then move to Abu Dhabi. (I'm not saying it's bad. But I wouldn't want to raise a family there)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:Boo Hoo by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Oooo another fucking troll who doesn't understand "market demand" - fuck off Potsy...

    3. Re: Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sit on it, nerd! Up your nose with a rubber hose!

    4. Re:Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How nasty.

  10. But, but, but... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    Disruption!
    Sharing economy!
    Have your cake and eat it too!

    But clearly, HAD they only used an agile blockchain app...

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  11. I remember when by John+Jorsett · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... it was "white flight" when middle-class people abandoned crime-infested, poor, dirty urban areas, and it was deemed bad. Now that people are moving back into these areas and the crime and dirt and poverty are leaving, it's "gentrification" and it's deemed bad.

    1. Re:I remember when by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... it was "white flight" when middle-class people abandoned crime-infested, poor, dirty urban areas, and it was deemed bad.

      Leaving by choice. Still bad because it deprived those neighborhoods of critically needed taxes and other benefits.

      the crime and dirt and poverty are leaving, it's "gentrification" and it's deemed bad.

      Being forced out. Not by choice. See the difference? Gentrification also usually means those pushed out have to move even further away from their jobs, sometimes making those jobs no longer tenable but mainly just increasing transportation cost (time and money) to those jobs. Costs the poor already have a hard time bearing as is.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    2. Re:I remember when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's racist when whites want to live in clean, safe neighborhoods.

    3. Re:I remember when by jareth-0205 · · Score: 0

      ... it was "white flight" when middle-class people abandoned crime-infested, poor, dirty urban areas, and it was deemed bad. Now that people are moving back into these areas and the crime and dirt and poverty are leaving, it's "gentrification" and it's deemed bad.

      Yes, large numbers of people moving en mass is bad for those that are in-place, whether in or out. Really do you need this explaining?

      The fact that the whole thing is described by what white people are doing only goes to *highlight* that nobody gives a fuck unless it's affecting white people.

    4. Re:I remember when by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that the whole thing is described by what white people are doing only goes to *highlight* that nobody gives a fuck unless it's affecting white people.

      The fact that the terms are only used when white people do it only goes to highlight that it is being blamed on white people. It's not affecting just white people, it affects everyone, and everyone does it.

    5. Re:I remember when by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      ... it was "white flight" when middle-class people abandoned crime-infested, poor, dirty urban areas, and it was deemed bad. Now that people are moving back into these areas and the crime and dirt and poverty are leaving, it's "gentrification" and it's deemed bad.

      It's almost as if the best situation is something between the two extremes.

    6. Re:I remember when by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      So...you're saying we should scale all choices to benefit the lowest common denominator in this country?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:I remember when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They weren't "crime-infested, poor, and dirty" when they left them. They got run down later because the government wouldn't underwrite mortgages in those areas so banks wouldn't make them. That cut people off from financing to maintain or renovate their buildings and neighborhood. The government also steered education and service funding from the neighborhoods, and slashed through them with freeways. The only part of your statement that's partly accurate is "dirty", because they were on the industrial side of town, and general pollution policies weren't what they are today.

    8. Re:I remember when by Luckyo · · Score: 0

      When lowest common denominator has guns, you should consider not ignoring their needs entirely.

      Lest you forget that there is another market that is currently in low demand state because the problem isn't yet at critical mass. Market called "personal security". If you want to know more, look into Rio and Sao Paulo.

    9. Re:I remember when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your erroneous global presumption is that the people being "forced out" have jobs in the first place and are not just on the dole...

    10. Re: I remember when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Aaaand that's the real reason why the liberal elite loves gun control.

    11. Re: I remember when by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      I would not attribute to malice what can be attributed to misguided desire to make a better world. Twentieth century is choke full of examples of such behaviour on part of societal elite. You need not go beyond the industry barons like Ford and Kellogg for examples of this.

    12. Re: I remember when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What you need to explain is why anyone of any color owes it to anybody not to move wherever they like.

    13. Re: I remember when by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      In order to be able to choose you need means. You seem like a proponent of commie equalification. Why don't you visit North Korea and tell us how it works there?

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    14. Re: I remember when by levicivita · · Score: 1

      So youâ(TM)re advocating people not being âoeallowedâ to leave a city or neighborhood of a city lest their tax money also be gone? So basically any time an above average income person spends more than x days/weeks/months/years in a place then they become prisoners to that place and cannot leave unless they pay some sort of ransom? So the moment someone becomes a little better off they also lose their human rights as well?

    15. Re:I remember when by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      When lowest common denominator has guns, you should consider not ignoring their needs entirely.

      Well, the upper crest segment also has guns, and because of more fiscal means, they have MORE guns, better guns and plenty of ammo to feed them.

      So, that's a moot argument.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    16. Re:I remember when by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Who has a lot to lose? Who has almost nothing to lose?

      Welcome to reality in big cities of Brazil, and increasingly Mexico, and why kidnapping wealthy people is a good business.

  12. the system is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    . . . that restricts the supply of new housing, and has strong rent-control in place, and people are SURPRISED that property owners will find a way to to generate revenue, and then optimize that revenue ??

    the landlords are breaking all the windows and then charging the tenants to fix them, over and over again

    it is a problem with the system when landlords can collectively manipulate the market to the detriment of everyone else

    housing is for living in, not for investment returns

    1. Re:the system is broken by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      Don't piss off the mailman living there as when you control the mail you control information

    2. Re:the system is broken by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      housing is for living in, not for investment returns

      When you are living in someone elses housing, they expect a return on their investment. Why else would they provide housing for you to live in?

      It can be both. You're creating an artificial dichotomy.

  13. Airbnb was doing what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are attributing the actions of users to Airbnb itself. This is a dangerous mistake from a libel standpoint.

    What Airbnb Did To New York City...Airbnb was raising rents... It was supercharging gentrification while discriminating against guests and hosts of color.

  14. So we need different hotel regulation? by swb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let me see if I understand this:

    ABnB works because ad-hoc rooms are cheaper than standard hotel rooms.

    So people rush into the ABnB market, removing conventional apartments from the pool of long-term housing, driving up rents as the pool of apartments shrinks.

    So if hotels are losing customers, why aren't they cutting hotel rates to be more competitive with ABnB? Hell, why aren't they slashing staff completely and converting some properties to ABnB only -- or becoming apartments?

    Do we need to reduce regulation on hotels so they can better compete with ABnB?

    Or is it some other thing, like hotels had successfully restricted competition and there was a practical shortage of hotels which drove prices too high?

    1. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      So if hotels are losing customers, why aren't they cutting hotel rates to be more competitive with ABnB?

      If hotels could get away with ignoring the same laws, fees, and regulations that AirBnB abusers are ignoring, they would.

      Hell, why aren't they slashing staff completely and converting some properties to ABnB only -- or becoming apartments?

      Zoning. In most major cities, hotels cannot legally repurpose their buildings to anything other than short-term rental because that would put them in violation of the local zoning ordinances.

    2. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by Nidi62 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Let me see if I understand this:

      ABnB works because ad-hoc rooms are cheaper than standard hotel rooms.

      So people rush into the ABnB market, removing conventional apartments from the pool of long-term housing, driving up rents as the pool of apartments shrinks.

      So if hotels are losing customers, why aren't they cutting hotel rates to be more competitive with ABnB? Hell, why aren't they slashing staff completely and converting some properties to ABnB only -- or becoming apartments?

      Do we need to reduce regulation on hotels so they can better compete with ABnB?

      Or is it some other thing, like hotels had successfully restricted competition and there was a practical shortage of hotels which drove prices too high?

      It's the Uber model. Hotels have to live up to all sorts of codes (fire codes, health codes, building codes, etc) and are inspected regularly. Airbnb homes, as private dwellings, are held to less stringent standards. Besides the cost reduction from this, the private homes don't have to pay for housekeeping, maintenance, front desk, and other staff, further reducing their costs. Hotels also have to collect and pay taxes that private dwellings may or may not collect and pay (there may or may not be local laws stating that they have to collect taxes, and they may or may not adhere to those laws if they do exist).

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by MeNeXT · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hotels have regulations to follow which Airbnb washes it's hands. Airbnb doesn't care about negative reviews because you can't post them. When things go wrong Airbnb doesn't care, doesn't allow you to post about it on the site, and doesn't refund the payments. It has to hit the media in order for Airbnb to react. When it does hit the media the wash their hands of it by claiming to delist the owner only to find them back again a few months later.

      Regulations should apply to all or to none. If Airbnb is a listing service then travelers shouldn't have to pay commission. If travelers pay commission then Airbnb is the travelers agent and should be responsible for the state of the destination as a travel agent is in some jurisdictions.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    4. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by edtice1559 · · Score: 2

      The difference in price between a hotel and a short-term rental is approximately equal to the hotel tax. And hotels have to meet much higher standards than short-term rentals. So what this means practically for customers is that you are giving up all of the safety and security of a hotel just to save a few tax dollars. And people are flocking to it.

    5. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      RTFA moron:

      "Airbnb was raising rents and taking housing off the rental market."

      But yeah keep thinking it's about hotels. Ass-hole.

    6. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, exactly this. Clearly Lyft > taxi, but to be fair taxi services have a huge list of disadvantages that Lyft and Uber have avoided. Same with AirBnB. The playing field is heavily tilted. I'm really curious what happens when sketchy things start to happen with either Uber or AirBnB. Will they become more regulated when (for example) an Uber driver turns to crime and robs a wealthy passenger?

    7. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      see below https://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=11830479&cid=56227739

    8. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "housekeeping, maintenance, front desk, and other staff,"

      airbnb still has housekeeping after the visitor
      airbnb still has maintenance, lower standard perhaps
      front desk is online or person free (code lock)

      But you are correct in principle. AirBnB is a NoFrills hotel. There just a demand for it. Perhaps its because inflation adjusted wages have decreased and hotels are more of a luxury now.

    9. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where i travel hotel and backpacker rates HAVE come down. Which is great. Cus i don't plan ahead at all so ABnB doesn't really work for me.

    10. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by sfcat · · Score: 2

      Hotels have regulations to follow which Airbnb washes it's hands. Airbnb doesn't care about negative reviews because you can't post them. When things go wrong Airbnb doesn't care, doesn't allow you to post about it on the site, and doesn't refund the payments. It has to hit the media in order for Airbnb to react. When it does hit the media the wash their hands of it by claiming to delist the owner only to find them back

      That's BS. Clearly you never hosted with Airbnb. Hosts get severely punished for bad reviews over time and many hosts have to go overboard in order to avoid bad reviews. 95% of people are reasonable but that last 5% will bitch no matter what. They seem to expect a hotel room for half the cost of a hotel room and if its not up to high-end hotel standards, they bitch endlessly. To counteract those folks Airbnb weights many reviews before taking action and usually the hosts have to cut their rates after just one or two bad reviews. The effect of Airbnb on cities probably isn't good, but you don't need to go making up facts when the actual facts are already in your favor. Also, being a host can be a miserable experience and I expect the corporate hosts to be the bulk of Airbnb's stock in the future.

      --
      "Those that start by burning books, will end by burning men."
    11. Re:So we need different hotel regulation? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      So if hotels are losing customers, why aren't they cutting hotel rates to be more competitive with ABnB? Hell, why aren't they slashing staff completely and converting some properties to ABnB only -- or becoming apartments?

      Hotels get a greater return on investment through rent seeking by buying the local politicians.

  15. wrong target by supernova87a · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Look, don't blame Airbnb, Uber or whatever company happened to come along in this moment, for all your woes. What you're actually mad at is the absolute failure of our governments, public institutions, and elected officials to adapt their services and approaches (or be allowed to do this by a public that seemingly wants to vote by popularity contest rather than efficacy of government).

    Get mad at your fellow city residents who only vote in and approve of city ordinances that let housing stagnate, reward people who've just been here a long time and nothing else, foster complacency and lack of quality in taxi regulation, or believe that voters should have a say in everything and vote out people who happen to implement one rule they don't like.

    Get mad at policymakers who are too distracted with getting re-elected and resisting PAC money to actually focus on governing and making reasonable policies, leaving our basic infrastructure to crumble while they go after higher profile symbolic issues.

    Be mad at yourself, and this system we thought was the best in the world, but actually needs maintenance and dedication to make it work properly.

    Companies are just the messengers.

    1. Re:wrong target by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

      The problem with Uber and Airbnb is that it's not clear how our politicians can collect payoffs. Is it like through an app, or an envelope full of cash? These modern times are confusing to our old befuddled ruling class.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:wrong target by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0

      No be mad at ass-hole like you that willingly ignore the problem and pretend it's something else. Again, fuck off and die.

    3. Re:wrong target by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Existing neighborhoods were not built and zoned for airbnb. If they were they'd look different.

      People who live near a sunny beach expect partying and new faces all the time, people who do not live near a party zone or tourist attraction do not. Where to live is a choice that often comes with a mortgage, so you're tied in for awhile.

      I'm not against Airbnb, just pointing out why some folks may be a might bit peeved to find out their next door neighbors change every week and make loud noises because they're on a vacation while you're trying to get some sleep for work.

      I expect my quiet suburban neighborhood to stay that way because that's what I paid for.

    4. Re:wrong target by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      It is far easier for politicians to collect their paychecks with Uber and AirBnB. They just have to threaten to implement existing laws and paycheck arrives in the form they desire.

      With the old businesses, they have to threaten to change the laws, as well as implement the changed laws to get any payment.

      So with Uber / AirBnB : only executive is involved. Generally fewer people are involved in the executive. The decision of the executive is less scrutinized than laws - which have to adhere to the pesky "Constitutions" and what not.

      With old business : legislature AND executive is involved. In addition to the steps above, members of legislatures, their lawyers to draft laws with appropriate loopholes have to be paid off. Then the pesky judiciary going on and on about the bloody Constitution.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  16. Fake News by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I've tried to use AirBnB twice in NYC - in both cases the reservation was canceled, in one case the day before I was supposed to leave (!), because the landlords found out the apartment owners were listing units on AirBnB... I don't see how it can really be changing anything if it's already fairly illegal to list your place.

    Do people seriously not think that the prices of housing there would not have gone up ANYWAY? To blame AirBnB for this is madness. Air BnB if anything is helping people in places like NYC actually buy more expensive places to live than they might otherwise, because they can subsidize part of the rent through rentals... or at least they could until NYC regulation fucked everyone over.

    But then, that's the role of regulation - to fuck real people over so that the government looks like it is doing something about anything.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  17. U.S. governments never liked Capitalism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Politicians buy votes by stealing resources from one group and giving them to another group.

    Capitalism, which demand voluntary trade, stands in total contradiction to such a scheme; politicians only tolerate capitalism insofar as it generates enough wealth to be plundered for politicians' own purposes.

  18. housing is for living in, not for investment ... by gDLL · · Score: 0

    lol....says who, o grand sultan/leader ? Ppl have been investing in housing at least since the ROMAN REPUBLIC... it's almost as if some people like to rule over other ppls lives...

  19. Avoid regulation, build more hotels by alternative_right · · Score: 1

    Airbnb was raising rents and taking housing off the rental market.

    Thinking like economists here, this suggests that NYC's problem here is not AirBNB but a lack of affordable hotel options.

    Solution: incentivize the building of more hotels that are affordable.

    We do not need another few hundred lines of law to join the millions already in force, usually misinterpreted, which cause higher costs for everyone.

  20. AirBnB emperors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've worked construction and videography for guys, all guys so far, with dozens of apartments in New York City being turned into airbnb hotels. We build sleeping lofts in every room. One guy made a whole video advertising a midtown apartment as having a perfect terrace for brotastic partying. His face is all over the video and I had a chuckle about whether he realized he was confessing to at least instant lease breaking and probably hefty fines. And no I did not expose myself legally by making the video. Discussed that with a lawyer over beers. And got a good laugh.

  21. Meanwhil AirBnB pretends Social Justice Champion by Atrox+Canis · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I used AirBnB a few times about 4 years ago. But I got turned off by them when they pushed their updated EULA that required me to promise that I would not be a dick to people. The word salad they used was a great deal more hipster and included phrases meant to make them look like they were the perfect little SJW's. Bottom line is that I don't need some company preaching to me that I have to behave a certain way or I can't use their product. Fine, I'll do both. I'll continue to be a nice person and I won't use their product.

    Honestly though, it wouldn't bother me if AirBnB is discovered to be a social evil and ends up at the mercy of government regulation or simply goes out of business. They demonstrated a great deal of hubris with that EULA demand and if you choose to believe this survey, appear to be worse than the people they wanted to socially engineer. And I still don't miss using their product.

    --
    Charter Member of The Committee Group For The Elimination And Eradication Of Repetitive Redundancy
  22. Airbnb is a scam by MeNeXT · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Airbnb takes commission on both sides and when there is a major problem to deal with they disappear.

    If you are lucky enough to book with a decent host you may get what you pay for. Unfortunately when you book with a scammer you are on your own. There is absolutely no help provided from Airbnb. This is based on my personal experience traveling for 30 years so your mileage may vary.

    No business is perfect. This is not about perfection. This is bout what happens when things go wrong. You are thousands of miles away and may have limited funds available or in a completely different culture where communication is not easy.

    Normally with a regular permitted establishment you can verify various independent reviews. On Airbnb only positive reviews are posted. You only find this out when things go wrong. Airbnb does not post negative reviews even though you paid for the full stay.

    Permitted establishments normally are inspected by local authorities which try to ensure a minimum standards. This does not mean that something won't go wrong but there is a bare minimum such as fire regulations. Information posting. Emergency exits. With Airbnb you are no even guaranteed that there will be a place to stay. Again Airbnb takes very little responsibility as to the accessibility or even to the legality of the rental. They haven't even visited the location to ensure that it is fit for the purpose advertised.

    So Airbnb takes commission on both sides of the deal and provides none of the advantages afforded from the regulated and established lodging hosts and when things go wrong you are left abandoned and screwed. The horror stories haven't disappeared they are just pushed under the rug. If it's so bad that the local authorities are left to deal with it, you may hear about it. You can't post negative reviews on Airbnb.

    Airbnb is not a sharing service since you are not required to live with current occupants and takes advantage of the increased costs of regulations which it does not abide with and wipes it's hands from all and any responsibility when things go terribly wrong. Airbnb pretends to be a listing service but implicates itself in every aspect of the business which milks every possible penny and extracts itself from any form of responsibility. I don't know why anyone needed a report to point this out if an individual acted this way people would say that they were running a scam.

    --
    DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    1. Re:Airbnb is a scam by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Used airbnb a number of times, and only once there was a slight problem. I let a quite negative review which has been published. And if you search a bit more, you’ll find negative reviews. So what you say is questionable. The reason why there are less negative reviews is thanks to the many identity and other proofs that are requested to subscribe - and people, hosts and guests, tend to behave honestly not to get a bad review. Of course, some scam and other bigger problems happen, which are always largely publicized (hotel lobbies are probably helping). But take the number of rooms rent per day, compare that to the number of real problems - the ratio bad/good is infinitesimal. I travelled a lot also, and I’ve been -on average - way more satisfied with airbnb than with hotels.

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    2. Re:Airbnb is a scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't find reference to not being able to post negative reviews. They even have a FAQ that says they won't remove reviews you disagree with. https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/32/can-i-delete-or-respond-to-a-review-i-disagree-with

  23. Just enforce zoning laws by magzteel · · Score: 1

    In my town short term rental housing is prohibited. AirBnB hosts try to get past that by telling their guests to lie. The town has been aggressive about enforcing the laws.

    To some it may sound draconian but no one wants a steady stream of strangers in the house next door.

  24. What about empty housing? by mspohr · · Score: 1

    One factor that the study did not look at was the number of vacant housing units. These are units which are purchased as second homes or as refuge houses by rich foreigners who want a place they can use occasionally when needed.
    Most major cities have a lot of housing which sits vacant most of the year. London and Vancouver have recently been in the news for this problem. Rich people buy housing in case they might want to use it someday and it sits vacant most of the time. This removes housing from the city. They are truly "ghost" housing units.
    Vancouver has recently imposed a 20% tax on foreigners purchasing housing and and additional tax of 1% of the value each year it is not occupied. This is an attempt to free up housing for locals who actually live in the city.
    I live in a "resort area" which has a very high percentage of second homes (vacant most of the year) and also an acute lack of affordable housing for locals. It seems these problems are related.

    --
    I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  25. AirBnB law in New York by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why AirBnB is illegal in New York for stays under 30 days. A lot of people don't know this though, and are getting fined because of it.

  26. but but the free market by OrangeTide · · Score: 0

    Just you wait, the invisible hand of the free market will sort this out.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  27. I really don't see a problem here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really don't see a problem here. Airbnb is disrupting an out-dated hotel market and it is going to cause changes. Rents are rising because there is an increase in demand. This is how capitalism is supposed to work.An increase in gentrification is not necessarily a bad thing. It's a matter of perspective that the market can sort out. If you don't like living in a gentrified neighborhood, then you can move.

    The only issue I can see is racism, but we already have laws on the books to prevent it. This is a matter of enforcing existing laws. Either way, if I own a house I should be able to rent it out to anyone I choose.

    1. Re:I really don't see a problem here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if I own a house I should be able to rent it out to anyone I choose.

      Nope, nope, wrong, stupid cow

    2. Re:I really don't see a problem here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok Kim un jong..then you shall only be allowed to respond to comments with which you agree.

    3. Re:I really don't see a problem here. by magzteel · · Score: 1

      if I own a house I should be able to rent it out to anyone I choose.

      You can in accordance with the local zoning laws. Typically that means no short-term rentals in a residential area. If you want to run a hotel, open a hotel where it is permitted, and run it in accordance with the local regulations governing the operation of a hotel.

  28. Study funded by Hotel Council by llZENll · · Score: 1

    "Wachsmuth’s research was funded in part by some avowed foes of home sharing—the New York City Hotel Trades Council—and was cosponsored by housing and tenant advocacy organizations."

  29. happening in San Francisco by crgrace · · Score: 1

    There is a constant war under the surface between AirBnB and the City of San Francisco. It is absolutely taking rentals off the market and increasing marginal rent. It is also being taken over by commercial operators.

    The City is trying to regulate but AirBnB spends more than 10X on advertising (at least on the two ordinances we voted on).

    I'm really of two minds here. I've used AirBnB on vacation and enjoyed it, but I do understand the damage it is doing to the City. It is kind of like Uber in that way. It is very complex and wrapped up in all kinds of issues like Rent Control, Prop 13, the Ellis Act (allows condo conversions in the City, and opponents say it throws the vulnerable out of housing).

    It's not easy or clear what is going to happen (or should happen).

    1. Re:happening in San Francisco by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with housing in San Francisco is that it's a city that's been run by one political party for way too long, which has allowed insane policies and beliefs to become dogma.

      Rent control is absolutely insane when combined with the overzealous anti-development mentality and rent-seeking behaviour of "social justice" advocates who hold developers to ransom over providing "below market rate" housing in projects.

      It can take as long as a decade to get a development approved. Regulations, fees and taxes account for over $100,000 of the price of a new apartment. That's more than the cost of the steel and concrete used to build it.

      There are thousands of acres of land in San Francisco that can easily accommodate denser development and already have access to rapid transit to handle the population, like along Geary from Van Ness to Outer Richmond. You could easily accommodate thousands of new apartments above stores along there which can be serviced by the existing bus lines, but such a population increase would make a new Muni line viable.

      All that is missing is the political drive and will to change zoning and speed developments.

  30. Piece Work by shayd2 · · Score: 2
    Piece Work jobs (ABnB, Uber, Lyft et. al) will cause a race to the bottom

    We've seen this struggle a century or so back.

    People will, eventually, unionize to establish livable wages

  31. The report is surely unbiased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > This report was commissioned by the Hotel Trades Council

    For example, it tries to overstate the impact by saying airbnb raised median rents by $380, and you need to dig deep to see the estimated increase is $380 *yearly* or $32 monthly, which is probably well within the model and measurement error. (because seriously, whenever I leave the house in Manhattan I come back with $40 less spent on coffee and avocado toast and stuff)

    It overestimates illegal rentals because the authors have no real way of knowing the number of units in many homes being rented out. For example, our building has only two units, so it is not subject to nyc short term rental law, but would qualify as part of their "illegal set"

    Finally, the phenomenon of apartments being subdivided is very minor and would be reduced if the hotel industry focused on building affordable hotel rooms instead of trying to kill the competition.

    Can't wait for the airbnb report on how the hotel industry brings tourists into town who slow down pedestrian traffic and spend money on crappy restaurants and mainstream broadway shows :)

  32. Airbnb dick riding by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    I guess Airbnb hired a troll firm to "correct the record". Didn't know David Brock branched out.

  33. 'Gig' Economy vs Full-Time business by Marc_Hawke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The thing I've always 'disliked' about 'room-sharing' and 'ride-sharing' (and I guess to some extent E-bay and Youtube) is that people make it a full-time job instead of a 'community' thing.

    I don't remember the taxi company complaining about the 'ride-sharing' board at the University. If you were going home for the weekend, why not take along a passenger that was going the same way. In general that's the basic idea of Uber and Lyft. I have a car, you're going my way, hop in.

    There was also the 'couch-surfing' phenomenon of a while back. The differences between that and what AirBnB is now are what I see as the problem. It's one thing to allow someone to spend the night in your empty guest room because nobody else is using it. It's a completely different thing to buy a room/ apartment/ house dedicated to having people pay to stay there.

    The 'problem' with Uber and AirBnB is that people have transformed the 'occasionality' of it into a permanent full-time job. It's not a sporadic and almost random thing they offer, it's 'the only thing.'

    --
    --Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
    1. Re:'Gig' Economy vs Full-Time business by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      If you were going home for the weekend, why not take along a passenger that was going the same way. In general that's the basic idea of Uber and Lyft. I have a car, you're going my way, hop in.

      Uber and Lyft are not "you're going my way" services, they are on-demand taxis. There has been noise about Uber becoming the ride providers for medical organizations -- a lift to the doctor's office. The system is being designed so the rider doesn't even need the Uber app, the ride is arranged by the office. If you think Uber is a "you're going my way" service, then you have to realize that you're riding with someone who has to visit the doctor multiple times a day. If they're that sick, should they be driving passengers commercially?

      This is something that private pilots have to be taught when they get their license. It's ok to ride-share and share costs if someone is "going my way", but you run into trouble when you start "going their way" and taking money for it.

  34. That is not the main reason by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Informative

    ABnB works because ad-hoc rooms are cheaper than standard hotel rooms.

    The reason it works is for lots of reasons, that is the last of them. I have often paid more for an AirBnB unit than I would have for the nearest hotel.

    Often you can find AirBnB units closer to where you want to be than most hotels, or in a more desirable location.

    AirBNB units will generally have kitchens and washing machines, both of which may be very hard to find at any price just looking at hotels.

    AirBNB units being housing, are often more secure than hotels and I don't have to worry about an entire staff with keycards being able to access my room, or being targeted by thieves because they know tourists stay at hotels.

    Do we need to reduce regulation on hotels so they can better compete with ABnB?

    That would help but I would still prefer an AirBnB unit if I could get one, over a hotel. Unfortunately because of restrictive regulation, most AirBnB units I've tried getting in large cities (mainly SF and NYC) have always been canceled so I can't take that risk anymore. In smaller markets they have been great though and really been much nicer than hotels.

    and there was a practical shortage of hotels which drove prices too high?

    One last note on this, it does not have to be a shortage of rooms or hotels - the last year or two the Apple Developer conference (WWDC) was in San Fransisco, the hotels decided to collude on higher prices - by that I mean 2-4x above normal rates for that time of year, because they knew they had a captive market for people who wanted to be around Moscone. I'm not 100% sure but it could be a reason Apple finally moved the conference to San Jose.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:That is not the main reason by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      the hotels decided to collude on higher prices - by that I mean 2-4x above normal rates for that time of year,

      It doesn't take collusion for all the hotels in an area to individually recognize periods of high demand and respond with higher rates. And it isn't just for the WWDC.

    2. Re:That is not the main reason by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      It doesn't take collusion for all the hotels in an area to individually recognize periods of high demand and respond with higher rates.

      Higher rates, yes... but not 2-4x increases over what they had been doing for about a decade before. It wasn't a gradual thing, it was a massive jump from one year to the next.

      Collusion doesn't have to be explicitly communicated, it could be one hotel made a huge jump and all followed. But either way they all jumped the same degree at the same time. I hope they all enjoy my never going to stay anywhere near Moscone in SF again as long as I live...

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    3. Re:That is not the main reason by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Higher rates, yes... but not 2-4x increases over what they had been doing for about a decade before. It wasn't a gradual thing, it was a massive jump from one year to the next.

      It still doesn't take collusion. There is a common factor: occupancy. Each hotel can determine that they're at 100% for one week that coincides with a conference and each can choose to triple their rates without any contact with the others. I don't doubt that it happens multiple times per year for other conferences, too. It might be worst for WWDC since the hotels know their victims are all Apple fanbois who will spend a lot of money for things other people would not.

      Collusion doesn't have to be explicitly communicated

      Yeah, it does. From the dictionary: "agreement between people to act together secretly or illegally in order to deceive or cheat someone". How do you make an agreement with someone if you never communicate with them? There doesn't need to be communications to explain it.

      But either way they all jumped the same degree at the same time.

      I don't doubt that the prices are multiple that for other times. I've seen it lots of times for other events. I only responded to the part about collusion.

  35. But why is that a problem? by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    The 'problem' with Uber and AirBnB is that people have transformed the 'occasionality' of it into a permanent full-time job.>

    But only if you want to - I have stayed at a number of AirBnB places where it was not a full time job, they just rented out a room for a bit more money...

    Meanwhile, what is so bad about people who bought places just to rent out? It takes a huge amount of capital to build a hotel, or even run a "real" BnB. But now someone who wants to just dip their toe into running a place to stay can do so through AirBnB, and see if that works for them.

    I have a friend who bought a mountain house specifically for use with AirBnB. It's great because they can stay in it when they like, or loan it out to friends - meanwhile the AirBnB rentals are paying for the whole thing, and in the end they have a second house in the mountains. Just what exactly is terrible about that?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:But why is that a problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A mountain house in a remote location is not an issue.

      It becomes an issue in densely populated area's where airBNB reduces the rental market supply for residents, driving up prices.
      And people or corporations owning multiple properties also shrinks the home-owner market, driving up prices.

  36. WHy shoot the messenger? by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

    Obviously there is a huge demand for affordable short term lodging in NYC. Instead of shooting the messenger and punishing homeowners, why not force traditional hotels to lower their rates? It is obviously their fault that rates are so high that people would rather use AirBNB instead.

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  37. Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by Pfhorrest · · Score: 2

    I say this every time, but it's worth repeating: all this bad stuff AirBnB does to the rental market, the existence of a rental market at all does to the housing market overall. Owners prefer AirBnB over long term rental which makes long term rental unaffordable. Owners also prefer rental of any kind over sale which makes homeownership unaffordable. Imagine a world where all you can find is ridiculously overpriced temporary housing at AirBnB rates? We live in a world like that already, where all you can find is ridiculously overpriced housing at rental rates.

    Ban rent, and watch housing become more affordable.

    (NB that interest is merely rent on money, so that's got to go too or else it's just the banks instead of the landlords who end up owning the world. Rent and interest, collectively "usury", the fee for a use, are the central failing of capitalism, the mechanism by which wealth concentrates exponentially, undermining the promise of a free market with parasitism by the capital-owners).

    --
    -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
    "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    1. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      all this bad stuff AirBnB does to the rental market, the existence of a rental market at all does to the housing market overall.

      The major difference is that the rental market has significantly less vacancy (wasted capacity) and the people who live in rentals are members of the community instead of visitors.

      interest is merely rent on money, so that's got to go too or else it's just the banks instead of the landlords who end up owning the world

      1) Banks already own the world. 2) Being able to borrow money is important. Borrowing capital allows people to invest in themselves and break into the ownership class.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    2. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by cmseagle · · Score: 2

      Ban rent, and watch housing become more affordable.

      There are reasons to rent other than being unable to afford to purchase. Short term commitment, less exposure to fluctuations in home prices, and a much lower barrier to entry. All of these things are ideal if you're feeling out an area before settling down, or if you're at a point in your life where you're chasing new jobs every few years looking for a raise.

      And if you want to ban interest, how do you propose you find a lender to supply the mortgage on your new home? Do you live with your parents until you've saved up the cash to buy a property outright? I suppose you could rent a property but if that's banned too...

    3. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      Owners could sell their homes in payments over time, or else sell to an institution who will do so for them. It’s basicall an interest free loan, but if the alternative is no sale then it’s in their self-interest to do so.

      Likewise, buyers who aren’t sure they want to stay long term can always sell before they’re done paying it off, for a loss equivalent to what they would otherwise have thrown down a hole on rent.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    4. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by cmseagle · · Score: 2

      sell to an institution who will do so for them.

      I think that's what almost every buyer would have to do, since they couldn't afford the risk that the buyer defaults and stops making the payments on which they're now relying to pay for their housing.

      That 'institution' couldn't be expected to provide this service for free, though. They would have to charge some sort of fee to be cover the administrative overhead, and to cover the losses they might incur on the small percentage of properties where the owner defaults and the value of the property has decreased. Because the magnitude of the risk scales with the amount that is owed, that fee would probably be assessed as a percentage of the amount owed on the property. And of course the faster the buyer completes the purchase, the lower the overall fee should be because this institution has their money in limbo for a shorter period of time and is thus less likely to make a loss.

      So, in the end we have an institution who has purchased the property on behalf of the buyer, and then collects regular payments which cover both the the purchase of the property and a fee computed as a percentage of the outstanding balance that covers the risk to the institution. See where I'm going with this? Without even getting into opportunity cost of fronting the money to buy the property, we find ourselves with a 'institution' (ie bank) that collects payments that go towards principal and interest.

    5. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by cmseagle · · Score: 2

      Whoops - meant to reply to your second point as well

      Buying and selling a property isn't a frictionless transaction. I'm a big fan of the NYT Rent vs Buy calculator. If you're going to stay in a place for 5 years or fewer, you can pay quite a lot in rent before it starts making sense to buy, even with optimistic estimates of home value growth.

    6. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      Replying to both of your replies in one here.

      Yes the institutions who buy from sellers in one lump sum and sell to buyers on installment will have to buy low and sell high to make a profit from doing that, and the difference between the low buys and high sells will have to cover expected losses like you describe. That's not the same thing as interest, that's an alternative to interest, and one I have no problem with.

      As for the friction of transactions, that's a product of human social constructs and can be changed just like anything else.

      The long and short of it is, if renting out property was not an option, would-be landlords would have to sell on terms that would-be renters could afford, or else get no money for their property at all. The would-be landlords and other capital-owners collectively control the entire process of the transaction, so if they have the motive, which they would if it were their only option, they could make buying was as easy as renting. You'd get a world where people who rent now are basically doing the same thing, except after "renting" for a long enough period of time they get to stop paying forever, and if they move they can maybe get some of their money back (depending on circumstances like how long they've lived there, a consideration similar to your rent vs buy calculator). So people who would like to settle down and buy but just can't under our current system don't end up dumping way more than the cost of a house down a rent-hole over the course of their lived, but actually end up owning a house for all that money; and people who want to move around a lot can pay the cost for that just like they currently do. Nobody loses, except for the people who no longer get to profit off of just having more wealth than others.

      The same logic applies to any other seller of expensive things that most people can't afford: they (directly or through some institutional intermediary) accept payments over time or else don't make any sales, so they'll accept payments over time.

      Businesses needing investment can sell equity in themselves. And then buy it back out of their share of the profits later if they want.

      And so on. There are ways to accomplish everything that's accomplished via usury without it, while also solving the problems that it causes.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    7. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by cmseagle · · Score: 1

      That's not the same thing as interest, that's an alternative to interest, and one I have no problem with.

      Maybe we're using different words to describe it, but I don't see how it's substantively different. You're still effectively charging a sum determined as a percentage of the value of the purchase over time. The sum will be lower for those with good credit (lower risk), and higher for those with bad credit (higher risk). This reminds me of Sukuk. They function exactly like bonds for all intents and purposes, but because of the way the agreement is worded they're Sharia compliant

      As for the friction of transactions, that's a product of human social constructs and can be changed just like anything else

      Well, sure, but now the argument has gone from "it can make as much sent to buy as to rent" to "it can make as much sense to buy as to rent, if we change a bunch of social constructs that make buying disadvantageous".

      would-be landlords would have to sell on terms that would-be renters could afford, or else get no money for their property at all

      Maybe in the short term. Long term, I suspect you'd see a drop in home construction rates as property ownership becomes less lucrative, and the market of potential customers shrinks. The relatively wealthy looking for housing will be just fine - those who were renting for whatever reason will switch over to ownership. The people who will struggle with this are the poor, or those with poor credit. They'll be forced to either move somewhere where they can afford to buy property (possibly at the expense of a higher paying job), or be faced with high fees on the "alternative to interest" scheme.

    8. Re:Rent is the AirBnB of ownership by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      Well, sure, but now the argument has gone from "it can make as much sent to buy as to rent" to "it can make as much sense to buy as to rent, if we change a bunch of social constructs that make buying disadvantageous".

      I guess maybe I was unclear to start with, but I've intended this whole conversation to be about changing social constructs. I never claimed (or meant to claim) that, as everything is set up now, everyone who's renting should just go buy. If they could, I'd have no complaint. I want to change things to make it so that people who would like to buy but are stuck renting now are not in that circumstance anymore; so that nobody is stuck renting when they don't want to be.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
  38. Incompatible with reality by duke_cheetah2003 · · Score: 1

    There are just some things that shouldn't be done. This sort of "service", while I'm sure it sounded like a great idea in the beginning, just as the articles says, it's turned out to be a horror. The internet isn't compatible with reality in all circumstances.

  39. Don't fight it, embrace it - remove entry barriers by burtosis · · Score: 1

    Instead of trying to fight these trends by suppressing property values, we should look at putting the gains back in the hands of the local citizens without significant barrier to entry.

    There is so much wrong with this issue. People complain that thier property values are soaring - and it's true higher taxes force poorer people out, but it's also true if they own even a part of thier home it will bring them a significant to huge profit. People complain that thier neighborhood is ailing and dilapidated but are upset when it becomes nice and gentrified. Rising property values with a corresponding improvement in infrastructure and city landscaping is something everyone should benefit from. The problem at the root of this is the extraction of wealth from the poor through real estate investment barriers - it puts wealthy investors in a different finnancial boat from renters and owners which is guarenteed failure at step 0.

    An interesting way to fix this is to have government backed coop housing. The government can buy properties, either turn key or with improvements, and sell shares to renters and locals. For example a person renting in one of these buildings would pay comparable rent, but a fraction of each months payment would go into ownership. If you lived in the city limits for the last 3 years, and you met a lower income requirement, you could purchase ownership as well. You could make the investment open to even 10-20 dollars a month and perhaps provide tax break incentives. Corporations wouldn't be able to own shares and individual people would be capped at some reasonable amount to keep consolidation from being an issue. But in this way the government could simeltaneously - increase the rental housing capacity, help local people benefit financially from gentrification and keep current private investors of property happy.

    Imagine if the government had opened a program like this around the obama library and helped South Chicagoans make hundreds of millions of dollars alongside property investors instead of just the 1%ers. The area around the museum site was the third fastest growing in the entire United States of America, it's been a shitshow of exactly the issues in the article above, and Obama did let me down in his remarks on it.

  40. Hotel Taxes by BrookHarty · · Score: 1

    I've seen the city and county use hotels as a wallet for taxes, every few years they keep raising taxes on hotels, 10 bux here, 5 bux there, repeat on and on.
    And you wonder why a hotel is costing 150 a night for a dive. The sticker shock of renting a room and finding a city tax on top is disgusting.

    AirBNB is the result of the overtaxing tourists as easy money.

  41. Other examples: all history by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    Rowdy Roddy Piper took off the glasses and said, "That's strange. I take these off and I see sweet, caring politicians talking about protecting the people from dishonesty and danger. Put ’em back on... formaldehyde-face taking kickbacks from hotels and rich owners to knock Air BnB out."

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  42. Landlords can't increase rent by Solandri · · Score: 2

    Sellers can't increase prices. They can ask for a higher price, but they won't make any sales unless there are customers willing to pay the higher price.

    Likewise, buyers can't decrease prices. They can wait for a lower price, but they won't be able to buy the item they want unless sellers begin to panic at lack of sales and lower their asking price.

    This is the greatest check and balance in economics. The person wanting higher prices can't raise them. The person wanting lower prices can't lower them. They each have to wait for someone opposed to them to meet their price. So the only way landlords can do what you accuse them of, is if there are tenants willing to go along with them and pay them for it. And if there are customers willing to pay that much for crappy housing, then it indicates you have other structural problems (excess demand, inadequate supply to meet that demand) which need to be dealt with.

    i.e. Higher rents are a symptom, not the problem.

    1. Re: Landlords can't increase rent by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      Landlords are few, comparatively well organized, and strongly favored by DUH LAW. They are price makers.

      Renters are many, mostly disorganized, and have effectively no rights under DUH LAW. They are price takers.

  43. Phoenix has all these problems by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    and it has zero rent control and almost zero regulations on building new houses. When Builders build they're building luxury houses because they're surprisingly cheap to build and much higher profit.

    It's got nothing to do with Rent Control or supply. The cities where this is a problem (San Francisco, Phoenix, Dallas, Seattle etc) are already out of land. They're being forced to build out further and further from where jobs are, resulting in 90+ minute commutes one way if you want affordable housing. The only way supply could be increased is if the city tears down single homes and replaces them with high rise apartments. But you can't really raise a family in those. Not the kind of families that can meet replacement birth rates

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Phoenix has all these problems by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      almost zero regulations on building new houses.

      Really? No height limits, no minimum floor area ratios, no minimum parking requirements, no minimum setbacks, no restrictions against building homes in commercial areas?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    2. Re: Phoenix has all these problems by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      In Vietnam, building highrises with 3, 4, and even 5 bedroom apartments is the norm. Right now, today. It's very hard to find a studio or 1 bedroom apartment in a tall building.

      It is *totally* possible to build high density, family-friendly housing. That we do not build it in America is a public policy decision, not some inescapable law of economics.

  44. Re: Don't fight it, embrace it - remove entry barr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You got the title right. But gvmnt can either remove the barriers or it can build those by the help of welfare programs that redistribute income from productive part of the economy to the have-nots.

    I had to check from dictionary the meaning of gentrification. But I am still puzzled why it is considered bad. I mean that is it bad belonging to the middle class? Is it bad to have wealthier neighborhood? Or if the direction is from elite to middle class, why would the majority oppose houses becoming more affordable? To me this sounds the best kind of democracy money can buy.

    So whereâ(TM)s the problem? Is it that money is not supposed to do good to people participating in economy, but just to outsiders and minorities not involved? But guess what? The socialist train left the station. And crashed a hundred meters away.

  45. What's the problem? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Sounds like AirBNB is just helping the supply and demand curves reach their equilibrium point. The problem is that people feel property owners SHOULDN'T have a right to do what they want with their own property?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Property is, by definition, a social and governmental construct.

      You can't even really "own" property in the United States. I mean, yes, by normal terms you can "own" property. But try not paying taxes on it and see how long that ownership lasts. It's unlike the ownership of any other material good. You can own a car-- maybe you don't pay to register it so you legally can't drive it, but you still own the car itself. You can own furniture, you don't have to make continual payments to a government entity to keep that ownership.

      Land, however, is different. It's a necessity to every living person in the country-- at least in theory, you need a place to live, sleep, etc. Keeping it affordable is paramount to a functioning modern society-- unless you want to go back to Feudalism and tenant farming. Therefore it has special ownership rules-- people who own property need to pay taxes on that property (in most places) to help pay for the needs of the area-- roads, schools, etc. Society will also pressure them to use that land in a way that, while certainly beneficial to the owner, has value and benefit for society as well. This is why there are laws about minimum property upkeep (since letting the value deplete and letting buildings become unlivable is seen as a societal problem, and as the owner you are responsible for preventing that problem).

      So yes, people do feel that property owners SHOULDN'T have a right to do what they want with their property. Property is a huge part of a society and as such has special rules and responsibilities imposed on it by most people within that society.

      Thankfully we have property laws and, the possibility to enact new ones to limit behaviour which is damaging to society. If studies are now showing that Air BnB is damaging to our society, then we, as citizens, have a duty to impose restrictions on that business model for the benefit of us all.

      Otherwise, we might as well go back to the libertarian heaven that was feudalism and "might makes right" authoritarianism.

    2. Re: What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go live in a desert island and convince yourself that society fishes for you and clothes you. Then take some guests who share the same thought but without contributing. See how the material wealth starts to accumulate and how the increased demand has miraculously led to economical growth.

      Really: the only social aspect of property is if the state or society understands and enforces individual rights. Either way, nature takes its course.

  46. on the other hand... by buddyglass · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...I was able to stay two weeks in NYC with my family (2 adults, 2 kids) in a clean 1200 sq. foot. two-bedroom apartment in Washington Heights for $120/night. Comparable hotel would have cost me $300/night at least. And my (14 nights * $120/night) went mostly into the hands of an actual family living in NYC (two public school teachers with 2 kids of their own) instead of, say, "Hilton" or "Marriot".

  47. Re:Meanwhil AirBnB pretends Social Justice Champio by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    you have a problem with "don't be a dick" you must be a Republican.

  48. High rents in NYC? by jtrainor · · Score: 1

    This is definitely a new phenomenon!

  49. Re:They're not moving into crime infested areas by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 1

    have you been to San Francisco or Seattle? There police presence is such that crime is nil

    The evening news on KRON TV has non-Alternate-Facts about the issue of crime in San Francisco.

  50. Valid for the entire sharing economy by XSportSeeker · · Score: 2

    Get a popular service, find a way to go around regulations, taxation and obstables put in place to stop overgrowth and abuses, find a way to skip welfare and minimum wage/conditions for workers to make a living with it, and sell it as a new paradigm.

    There is no easy route or shortcut for this people. If you are paying less to stay somewhere, paying less for transportation, paying less for services in general, someone is paying more. And there will be consequences for that.

    It's no coincidence that some workers on those sectors are living in conditions reminiscent to the Industrial Revolution era. Crazy hours not enough to even make a living.

    And yes, I fully agree that regulations are far from perfect, that they often don't do what they are supposed to, and that they frequently compose of abuse themselves for business owners... but skipping them away or going around them will eventually have predicted consequences.

  51. Gentrification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gentrification: the process by which garbage is swept away that so decent people can live in an area and actually walk around at night.

  52. New York City is odd by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    First, real estate is very expensive and renting is very cheap (relative to purchase price). It is impossible to put 50% down, buy a place and be cash flow positive there, while most of the country you can easily put 5% down and be cash flow positive. Rent prices do not reflect current real estate appraisals. Renting real estate out on a yearly basis is only profitable if you take into account the expected appreciation.

    But if you go short term, aka AirBnB, then you turn cash flow positive.

    Real world example: Place costs 600k, rents for monthly 2k. 24k cash will not cover the mortgage, let alone the taxes and Condo fees/HOA.

    But if you rent it for 200/night, that becomes 6k a month, assume you only make 5k (1/6 days not rented), or 60k a year WILL cover the mortgage, taxes, and maintenance/HOA fees.

    And, because it is NYC, renting out 5/6 days is not that hard to do.

    Given that situation, you have to be a fool not to AirBnb.

    But in other places, that won't work. First, the monthly rental prices for a 600k house outside of NYC is more like 4k a month. Second, you can't get the 200/night 5 days out of 6 for most other cities. Even getting 3/6 is a significant reduction in profit and takes just as much work

    The safety of a single, reliable rentor, avoiding the possible legal issues of the AirBnB , all means most landlords would rather rent on a yearly basis not weekly

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  53. Re: Don't fight it, embrace it - remove entry barr by burtosis · · Score: 1

    People don't like it because property taxes go up as often does rent. So they get kicked out of thier homes (often at a profit). The difference between welfare and this program is people pay INTO this program, not out. It removes risk because the owners don't run the place - it will work as long as the project isn't run by corrupt people. They could increase the tenants per acre by building upwards and smaller units, this could keep property values the same.

  54. Re: Don't fight it, embrace it - remove entry barr by burtosis · · Score: 1

    ^individual property values and thus rent also.

  55. Nope, still makes no sense by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    It still doesn't take collusion. There is a common factor: occupancy. Each hotel can determine that they're at 100% for one week that coincides with a conference and each can choose to triple their rates without any contact with the others

    The size of the Apple conference did not change the entire time it was held at the Moscone so the number of attendees was the same, and prices were raised the last two years in a row.

    agreement between people to act together secretly or illegally in order to deceive or cheat someone

    Which is obviously what happened, note that doesn't say "verbal" or "contractual".

    How do you make an agreement with someone if you never communicate

    Technically published prices are communication. I do not doubt there was a bit of other back-channel communication as well between at least a few places.

    I don't doubt that the prices are multiple that for other times

    Yes, but again, while it was higher for many years there was a HUGE JUMP for ALL HOTELS in a single year, that persisted from year to year. It was way more than the average conference jump which is normal and accepted.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Nope, still makes no sense by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Yes, but again, while it was higher for many years there was a HUGE JUMP for ALL HOTELS in a single year, that persisted from year to year

      So there was no possibility of any collusion for many years. When AirBnB did not exist - or was a much less widespread thing than last 2-3 years. In late 2016, and 2017 there were multiple reports of AirBnB's growth slowing down because of reaching a saturation in the major / more profitable markets. If you are making the point of AirBnB being a force against collusion - the time correlation you mention actually makes the opposite point.

      The "collusion" happened when AirBnB was already as big a thing as it has ever been. And didn't happen when it was a smaller thing.

      If Apple moved the conference away - it is the standard operating procedure in free markets. The hotels saw an opportunity to leech off fanbois, succeeded for a year or two, got burned after that. Since you have not told the story after that - I see that Apple has just said check, and it is the turn of the hotels to make the next move next year. I don't see a checkmate yet, unless that one year was enough to finish off some of the hotels.

      agreement between people to act together secretly or illegally in order to deceive or cheat someone

      Which is obviously what happened, note that doesn't say "verbal" or "contractual".

      That definition is clearly circular for any logical discussion to be based on it. "Collusion" is being discussed to figure out whether or not it was illegal - but this definition includes illegal as one of the criteria that makes an act "collusion". In law , especially informally stated or generally stated spanning many jurisdictions, at times it is possible for a definition to be somewhat circular. But then, we need human judges to interpret it, act on it, and make case law much less circular. The way this definition goes - it is good to get a general idea. The circularity prevents any objective analysis.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    2. Re:Nope, still makes no sense by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Which is obviously what happened, note that doesn't say "verbal" or "contractual".

      But it does say "agreement", which isn't necessary for this to have happened. Hilton doesn't need to agree with Marriott regarding their prices. Hilton can see occupancy rates, the convention calendar for Moscone, and come to its own conclusions regarding the price that the market will bear without any agreement with Marriott to do that.

      You're trying to gin up a conspiracy between hotel chains when none is necessary to explain the results.

  56. NY AG: Most Airbnb rentals in NYC are illegal by bobwyman · · Score: 1

    We already have laws that should prevent most Airbnb rentals in New York City. As the New York Times wrote: "The New York State attorney general believes most Airbnb listings in New York are illegal." You aren't allowed to rent a room for less than 30 days unless you are present throughout the rental. Also, subletting is explicitly prohibited in most apartment rental agreements. See: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0...

  57. Disruption Strikes Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The disruptive geniuses of Silicon Valley have worked their magic yet again. Oh, the courage.

    They get rich while society falls into ever deeper states of dysfunction and anomie.

    #SociopathLivesMatter