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Entrepreneur Andrew Yang, a Big Supporter Of Universal Basic Income, is Running For President (techcrunch.com)

In a recently published podcast, Andrew Yang, tech entrepreneur and founder of Venture for America, said he is vying for the Democratic party nomination to run for President of the United States. From a report: Yang outlines his radical policy agenda, which focuses on Universal Basic Income and includes a "freedom dividend." He talks about the very real and immediate threat of artificial intelligence, how new technologies are erasing millions of jobs before our eyes, and why we need to put humanity first. He also addresses "the big four" and what he plans to do about Amazon.

During the interview, Yang called out governments inability to address large scale problems and the challenges that technology is creating in modern American society. "I believe that we need to start owning these realities [of automation and artificial intelligence taking away jobs] and these challenges as a people, as a country, and as a society, and start being honest. I'm running for president to solve the big problems and to show that these things are not beyond us," Yang says. Yang's own plan to address the increasing power tech companies are wielding in the world involves something called a "freedom dividend", which would paid for by a value-added tax. The revenue from that tax (levied on "gains from the big four") would be redistributed via the "freedom dividend" to citizens, Yang says.

277 of 465 comments (clear)

  1. UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We either plan for it now or start buying pitchforks and torches. And oiling up the guillotines because we _will_ eat the rich.

    --
    Only I can judge you.
    1. Re:UBI, it's about time by HumanWiki · · Score: 3, Funny

      We either plan for it now or start buying pitchforks and torches. And oiling up the guillotines because we _will_ eat the rich.

      I believe that Bender Bending Rodriguez said it best.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    2. Re:UBI, it's about time by halivar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, but if you have your way, you'll find out quickly that to someone, somewhere, *you* are the rich.

    3. Re:UBI, it's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      we don't need pitchforks and torches, our right to guns is enshrined in the constitution.

    4. Re:UBI, it's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      To some. Yes. To enough? Probably not. The op is right, if you look historically, when the wealth discrepancy grows too big, the rich do not survive too well. (France, Russia, China) all had their wealthy wiped out. Those are just the ones that come to my mind. If it was a billionaire I would be looking to make it known that I was giving away enough of my placate the masses in a possible upheaval in a generation or two.

    5. Re: UBI, it's about time by Danathar · · Score: 2

      To everybody on both sides looking to tear things down, just remember the French terror years. What happened to Robespierre can happen to YOU too

    6. Re:UBI, it's about time by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 2, Insightful

      WILL.
      NOT.
      WORK.

    7. Re: UBI, it's about time by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Giving people handouts never fixes anything, it just makes things worse, fix the goddamned economy so people can earn a decent living instead!

    8. Re:UBI, it's about time by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Technocrat, yeah! I may have to re-register as Democrat, even though I hate 99% of what the Democratic party stands for, to vote for him.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    9. Re: UBI, it's about time by jwhyche · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Giving people handouts never fixes anything, it just makes things worse, fix the goddamned economy so people can earn a decent living instead!

      Well at some point you are going to find out that is has to be this way. That are start limiting births with mandatory birth control. At some point its going to become clear, there is no fixing the economy for this kind of issue. There simply isn't enough jobs out there and as technology advances jobs are going to become a ever shrinking resource.

      Of course you can also just let people starve in the streets. Look how well that worked for the French at one time.

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    10. Re:UBI, it's about time by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 3, Funny

      Wait, are you saying UBI will not work, or that once UBI is in place you will not work?

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    11. Re:UBI, it's about time by halivar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But look at what happened to those who did the purging in all three cases: the early revolutionaries are the victims of the second purge, as punishment for their revolutionary excess.

    12. Re:UBI, it's about time by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I don't think the problem is nearly so dire as these people are saying.....

      AI and robotics is not going to cause mass unemployment for at least a couple of decades I estimate.....

      Something to look towards and plan for the potentiality, but we're not even CLOSE yet, no need to jump headlong into socialism at this point in time.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:UBI, it's about time by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1, Troll

      Oh, no. I'd still be working, and so would you. So we could get 95% of our income taxed, to pay the freeloaders. Meanwhile The Rich will weasel out of of paying anything. So will corporations. So once again The Poor will be paying to support The Poor, and we'll all be told to be grateful for it. UBI WILL NOT WORK!

    14. Re:UBI, it's about time by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      no need to jump headlong into socialism at this point in time.

      Why not? People living in social democracies tend to have a high standard of living and a high level of happiness.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    15. Re: UBI, it's about time by amorsen · · Score: 2

      There are plenty of jobs out there. If I had enough money I could keep at least one person in meaningful full time employment doing things that are neither easily automated, harmful, degrading, or bad for the environment.

      Unemployment is never caused by automation. It is always caused by those wishing they could have goods or services not having sufficient funds to afford it. And since we are unlikely to run out of trees to make bills out of, any demand shortage caused by lack of money can be easily fixed.

      Unemployment is a stick used by the powerful to make sure that regular people live in fear.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    16. Re:UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 1, Informative

      oooohhh. All caps and bolded. You must be right! That is how I always recognize the best arguments, bolded and all caps, with exclamation marks (/sarcasm)

      When 95% of the jobs are gone, either we all starve, yes even you Ayn Randians, or we yank back wealth from rent-seeking leeches. Violence will be the preferred method of the masses so the wealthy should start planning on UBI if they don't want themselves and their progeny oiling our guillotines.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    17. Re:UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make sense to me. I would think since it replaces social security, it continues for life. Also a minor's parent's should get a significant increase to be able to care for their under-18 children.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    18. Re:UBI, it's about time by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      That's funny. You know what they call software automation here where I work?

      'Robotics'.

      Yes. Explicitly.

      And AI will be the tech that will allow it to flourish. I expect to see a lot of jobs missing over the next 10 years. But to be honest, I've seen a lot of jobs gone missing over the past 10 years, it just happened that these went missing due to economic pressures indirectly related to 'automation'. Like recessions, improved management, reduced demand via improvements in everything.

      Such changes come from time to time, and if the 'victims' (losers) are just blue-collar high school graduates, they linger at the margins and end up suffering.

      The 2009 wave hit white-collar 50+ white men pretty hard. This next wave will strike younger men, and probably women equally, and that will give rise to a concerted effort to save them the embarrassment of failed expectations.

      And it will not be cheap.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    19. Re:UBI, it's about time by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Huh. I was taught it was the instigators of the revolution, themselves, the most violent and cruel, and most motivated, that formed the 'second wave', having used the first wave to break down the previous structures.

      But I was taught that in the 70s, from facts.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    20. Re: UBI, it's about time by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Truly the solution can only be new opportunities for the displaced workers.

      All that requires is that those who can create are allowed to do so. It has happened before.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    21. Re:UBI, it's about time by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 2

      When 95% of the jobs are gone

      You're a complete wingnut. You must be upset over the aluminum tarriff, it'll make your hats so much more expensive for you.

    22. Re:UBI, it's about time by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 2, Informative

      1) standard of living has been proven to be nearly irrelevant to happiness, once ones basic needs have been met, 'precieved' differences in wealth tend to have a much higher effect on happiness then actual wealth.

      2) your second statement is only true if you cherry pick your dataset. if you include all socialist republics , russia, china, cuba, etc what you are saying is decidedly not true or at best uprovable.

      3) Sense of purpose and a feeling of community ( aka contentedness) are much more important to happiness in my personal observation. Socialism undermines the first by treating everything people do as of equal value and the often times undermines the second by creating a police state where any divination from the 'norm' frowned upon. It also robs people of the sense of purpose often derivative from the religious experience as many socialist governments are passively or even actively anti-religion.

      --
      âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    23. Re:UBI, it's about time by magarity · · Score: 1

      I may have to re-register as Democrat

      Resist the urge to become a pawn in the gerrymandering wars.

    24. Re:UBI, it's about time by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      In the Willamette Valley, the whole thing is one big gerrymander.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    25. Re:UBI, it's about time by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I only register for either GOP or Democrat when there is an interesting primary. Usually, I hate both equally.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    26. Re:UBI, it's about time by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) standard of living has been proven to be nearly irrelevant to happiness,

      Good job I listed them as separate points then, isn't it!

      2) your second statement is only true if you cherry pick your dataset. if you include all socialist republics , russia, china, cuba, etc what you are saying is decidedly not true or at best uprovable.

      Well, yes, if you cherry-pick social democracies to include things which are decidedly democracies then you can indeed prove that people living somewhere might not be happy.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    27. Re:UBI, it's about time by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Somebody smart that actually cares about people for president? No chance. The current crook will just be followed by another crook.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    28. Re:UBI, it's about time by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You have something to say or you just want to scream around unsubstantiated opinions like a cave-man?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    29. Re: UBI, it's about time by jwhyche · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unemployment is never caused by automation

      I like trains. I've been watching a lot of documentaries on trains lately. Did you know that before the 1950's over 1/5 of the blue collar labor in the United States was by the railroad. It takes about 125 people to maintain and run a steam locomotive.

      You know what happened after 1950? The railroad had a massive layoff. It only takes about 24 people to run a diesel-electric locomotive. So you can say that in the 1950 a shit load of people lost their jobs due to efficiency and automation on trains.

      Do you know they are working on a cabbage picking robot? It and others like it will completely eliminate the need for a migrant labor force in the United States.

      So, you can't tell me that jobs are not lost to automation. That has actually been the way since the dawn of time as technology gets better. The donkey lost his job at the mill wheel because of the water wheel.

      Currently, there maybe plenty of jobs out there. But that isn't the way it will always be. As technology advances robots and automation will take more and more jobs. Retraining is a option for some but it will not always be that way.

      An its the very marketing forces that people like to praise for creating current jobs, now, that will make this happen. So unless we are blown back into the stone age, this will happen.

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    30. Re: UBI, it's about time by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      "fix the goddamned economy so people can earn a decent living instead!"

      People already can earn a decent living.
      Be self-employed.
      Provide a service or product people need.
      Market it well.
      Fill a niche.
      Make money.
      Not fast but steadily.
      It works.
      Just about anyone can do this.
      Out in rural areas a very high percentage of the population is self-employed which proves the point.

    31. Re: UBI, it's about time by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Yeah. We also get flooded by human parasites (avoidable) and stopped outcompete the world and you can't really get a job and work yourself rich here. You need to own something to get rich. The income taxes are massive. Capital taxes aren't. Heritage taxes are 0.

    32. Re:UBI, it's about time by eclectro · · Score: 1

      Except for all those "trucks of peace" that get loose!! No thanks, I'll pass.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    33. Re:UBI, it's about time by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      The insight I took away was that the true instigators used the initial violence to sweep out the old. They always wanted to rule, so the amateurs they let be the first violent wave had to be dispensed with. Those who would join were part of the cabal, those who thought they had won would be dispensed with.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    34. Re:UBI, it's about time by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      We either plan for it now or start buying pitchforks and torches. And oiling up the guillotines because we _will_ eat the rich.

      UBI is a terrible idea. How exactly does it solve the problem of the haves vs the have nots? It's basically another name for welfare. The people who are lucky to have good paying jobs will be fine and everyone else will get the bare minimum to survive. It will not prevent the pitchforks at all.

      A solution that would work much better would be to slowly reduce the legal work week. If the legal work week was only 20 hours a week, there would be double the number of jobs. We are already seeing a situation where the richer 50% of the population are working more hours per week than the poorer 50%, if we slowly reduced the work week then we could both equalize the amount of work and the amount of leisure. It would also put in motion the ability to continue to drop the workweek from 38 to 36 to 20 to 10 or to however low we need it to maintain full employment for everyone.

      Personally, I would rather see government work programs to clean up parks, etc... before UBI. UBI just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

    35. Re:UBI, it's about time by sit1963nz · · Score: 1

      Oh, and what makes the USA so great ?
      Its not freedom of speech
      Its not education, or health. Its certainly not honesty, nor is it personal safety.
      Its not social mobility, happiness , freedom of the press, or democracy.
      Its not racial equality, and the divide between rich and poor is growing

      Tell me, what makes you think the US is great ?

    36. Re:UBI, it's about time by AdamThor · · Score: 1

      "Violence will be the preferred method of the masses so the wealthy should start planning on UBI if they don't want themselves and their progeny oiling our guillotines."

      I have heard that some of this sort of thinking that got the New Deal passed.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    37. Re: UBI, it's about time by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      New Zealand is in the process of telling them to fuck off and go away.

    38. Re: UBI, it's about time by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 2

      Aluminum foil hats don't work. Why else would they phase out real tin foil?

    39. Re:UBI, it's about time by William+Baric · · Score: 1

      I'm 48. I feel I was playing with my Colecovision only a few years ago. The reality is a couple of decades goes by very fast.

      I do think we should now gradually start to implement Universal Income. Not $2000 a month like some people are saying, that would be catastrophic, but let's start with, let's say, $200 a month. Instead of lowering income tax, increasing minimum wage, increasing welfare, let's keep income tax as it is now, let's freeze minimum wage and welfare, and let's implement this $200 a month. After that, let's see what happens.

    40. Re: UBI, it's about time by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      There simply isn't enough jobs out there

      How can anyone honestly believe this crap? There is always more valuable work to be done than resources available. More people advances our technology and civilization quicker.

    41. Re:UBI, it's about time by morkk · · Score: 1

      >we _will_ eat the rich

      A nice sentiment but I suspect we'll actually be feasting on the corpses left by the autonomous kill-bots patrolling the perimeters of the rich's enclaves. With advances in laser weapons the 'soylent green' will even be pre-cooked for us.

    42. Re: UBI, it's about time by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You completely fail to offset the job 'losses' you mention with the significant job gains in people needed to manufacture the new technology.

      You completely fail to comprehend that if the direct job losses weren't greater than the indirect gains there'd be no cost savings from automation, and therefore it wouldn't happen.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    43. Re:UBI, it's about time by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Never happen mass unemployment. What will happen is, if the poor can not have healthy meals, a comfortable place to live, entertainment and quality clothing (comfortable not flash shit), than the rich cannot have mansions or yachts or limos or it will probably kill them. Can't enjoy any rich shite hiding in a hole in the ground, a hole in the ground is nothing but a place where to go to wait to die, it's shite. Maintain a healthy happy society and you can enjoy your shite and constrained poseur status, else those angry poor people, backed by those who you gave power because you are the greatest threat to them because you could take the power away. You have power, up until the second you no longer can and then you will be dealt with as a threat to those you empowered to suppress us, our new leaders.

      When you create a police state, the police become the state, not those who created the police state, they are the first lined up against the wall, the greatest threat to the police state, always happens, history has proven it. The poor get roughed up and all the rich die in the end to make way for the nouveau rich. The rich always think they will dominate, right up till they are kicking in the wind, the police state is as dangerous as fuck and more dangerous to those who created it than to the rest of us. Stalin developed a taste for cyanide apparently, you are never safe outside of a healthy, happy, stable society (you need them to be safe).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    44. Re:UBI, it's about time by jezwel · · Score: 2
      I would hazard a guess that countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Finland, Belgium, Canada, Ireland, and New Zealand. Some of these are in the EU.

      I don't know why GP mentioned social republics when it was social democracies that was mentioned higher. :shrug:

    45. Re: UBI, it's about time by kenh · · Score: 1

      It takes about 125 people to maintain and run a steam locomotive.

      No, it doesn't and you look stupid when you say things like that.

      There may be 125 tasks involved in maintaining a steam locomotive, but you claim that 125 people work 8 hr/day, 365 days/year maintaining a steam locomotive?

      What could they all possibly do?

      Now, did the Union Pacific railroad have 125 different tasks that were all required at various intervals over the course of the year to maintain a steam locomotive? Sure - some were hourly, some daily, weekly, after so many hours of run-time, etc., sure, makes perfect sense - but to imagine there were three shifts of 40+ workers on staff every day dedicated to maintain a single locomotive? Asinine. There'd have to be a coach car traveling behind the locomotive dedicated to transporting the 40+ person 'support staff' for each locomotive.

      --
      Ken
    46. Re: UBI, it's about time by kenh · · Score: 1

      When 95% of the jobs are gone, either we all starve, yes even you Ayn Randians, or we yank back wealth from rent-seeking leeches.

      Or we could, you know, spread out and take up farming and consider having fewer children per family.

      --
      Ken
    47. Re:UBI, it's about time by dev-in-seattle · · Score: 2

      We don't need to pay that much of our income to get UBI. First, because w have too low taxes on really rich people, like the idiot inherited classes that do nothing useful, such as our president. But also because think about how much money we waste figuring out who should have welfare, verifying they spend it on welfare allowable foods, not booze, etc. If we just gave people freaking money we could remove all that waste of time stuff (err, some of those people might lose their jobs who used to supervise welfare, but lets not get off topic). Repeal the Republican/oligarch/trump tax cuts and that provides a lot (150 billion a year).

    48. Re: UBI, it's about time by Iamthecheese · · Score: 2

      It was called the caboose.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    49. Re:UBI, it's about time by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      The EU is quite democratic..

    50. Re:UBI, it's about time by q_e_t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Learn the difference between social democracies and the USSR, then post. Essentially, the GP said "Apples are delicious" and you said "Ah, but what about these lemons?".

    51. Re:UBI, it's about time by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      We either plan for it now or start buying pitchforks and torches. And oiling up the guillotines because we _will_ eat the rich.

      UBI is a terrible idea. How exactly does it solve the problem of the haves vs the have nots? It's basically another name for welfare. The people who are lucky to have good paying jobs will be fine and everyone else will get the bare minimum to survive. It will not prevent the pitchforks at all.

      A solution that would work much better would be to slowly reduce the legal work week. If the legal work week was only 20 hours a week, there would be double the number of jobs. We are already seeing a situation where the richer 50% of the population are working more hours per week than the poorer 50%, if we slowly reduced the work week then we could both equalize the amount of work and the amount of leisure. It would also put in motion the ability to continue to drop the workweek from 38 to 36 to 20 to 10 or to however low we need it to maintain full employment for everyone.

      Personally, I would rather see government work programs to clean up parks, etc... before UBI. UBI just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

      That's not a given. Costs would rise, as you can't employ 2 50% workers for the cost of one. It assumes sufficient discretionary spending from 50% workers to support the current economy.

    52. Re:UBI, it's about time by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      "OH NO! My comfortable life! The people I've helped to collectively screw over for decades are coming to get me! Woe is me and my material possessions!"

      --
      Eat the rich.
    53. Re: UBI, it's about time by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      And then we'll cut them off from the rest of the world. They can live in their smug fat-wallet utopia, while the rest of the world gets on with actually doing shit that matters.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    54. Re:UBI, it's about time by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      I don't understand this registering business. In the US, you have to register with a political party to be able to vote for a candidate ? What if someone registers with multiple political parties ? Do people register with political parties they hate just to select a bad candidate ? Isn't it possible to beat up / kill the people "registered" with political parties you oppose - I am made to understand there is some "D" or "R" card people carry with them ?

      Wikipedia (and some other Googling) gives a very politically correct kind of information, not these political hacking strategies.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    55. Re:UBI, it's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Socialism undermines the first by treating everything people do as of equal value and the often times undermines the second by creating a police state where any divination from the 'norm' frowned upon. It also robs people of the sense of purpose often derivative from the religious experience as many socialist governments are passively or even actively anti-religion.

      Republicans have been calling me Satanic-Capital S, actual servant of the Master of All Evil-since I picked up my first Dungeons and Dragons book in elementary school. They have also done their level best to suppress my sexuality as a straight male. May a better god than theirs help the homosexuals and the women. This shit is only a fraction of why people become "passively or actively" anti-religion, and you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you try to frame the "socialists" as the tyrants when they try to stop you from torturing gay people to "conversion" or death. Punishing deviation from the norm is the raison d'etre for modern social conservatism.

    56. Re:UBI, it's about time by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      That's not a given. Costs would rise, as you can't employ 2 50% workers for the cost of one. It assumes sufficient discretionary spending from 50% workers to support the current economy.

      But how is half the population at 100% employment and half the population at 0% employment any better than all the population at 50% employment? At least with all the population at 50% employment everyone is kindof all in it together. UBI just sounds like some horrible dystopia where the people who can fight for the few remaining jobs get to live like kings while everyone else lives on the scraps. A gradual reduction in the workweek would allow everyone to get used to working less and having more leisure and wouldn't create a bloodbath of people fighting for fewer and fewer jobs.

    57. Re:UBI, it's about time by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Primaries only- you have to register as a given party to participate in that party's primary. In Oregon, that's how they know what ballot to send you in the mail.

      There's no longer a card, because we don't have polling places here anymore. And there are actually four parties on the ballot in Oregon: Democrat, Republican, Green, and Constitutional.

      While yes, one could register as something just to sabotage a primary, it isn't a very good strategy. But if you actually believe as I do, that all the social justice issues will one day be solved with technology, then it is almost worth it just for the chance to vote for a real technocrat. Especially one who believes in UBI as a way to reverse the ever encroaching longer workweek.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    58. Re:UBI, it's about time by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I'm perfectly happy in the US.

      Even as far away from the original US ideals as we have gotten, I'm still happy with it...I feel I'm perfectly free to do most anything I want to do.

      I"m free to start a business and make money any way I wish....even thought I feel I spend too much in taxes, it is MUCH less than other countries.

      No, I'm perfectly happy here.....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    59. Re: UBI, it's about time by tbannist · · Score: 1

      When 95% of the jobs are gone, either we all starve, yes even you Ayn Randians, or we yank back wealth from rent-seeking leeches.

      Or we could, you know, spread out and take up farming and consider having fewer children per family.

      Sounds to me like you agree with the OP without even knowing it. Or do you think that the land that you are "spreading out" into and "taking up farming" on, is magically not owned by somebody already? It sounds like you're also talking about yanking wealth back from "rent-seeking leeches", to me.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    60. Re:UBI, it's about time by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It won't until we can literally increase productive output without investing additional human labor per unit. That's not happening in any predicted future, yet people are imagining the same thing people have imagined for hundreds of years with every new piece of technology.

      Also: UBI isn't socialism. It's a capitalist solution. It's also somewhat behind: I designed a Universal Dividend back in 2013, and am running for Congress to bring this to fruition. The Dividend is 12.5% in my current model, and it puts a complete and total end to homelessness and hunger--and doesn't itself raise taxes (add universal healthcare, universal education, and some other tax system adjustments and the top tax bracket goes up, but doesn't even reach 45%).

      I think Andrew Yang's pitch is "I'm a lunatic and don't understand technology, economics, or history, but let's show people what a Progressive candidate would look like if you found one as damaging to our nation as Donald Trump!" We need to focus on helping those in need, on making our welfare system stronger, and on strengthening labor protections; burning down all progress and imprisoning us in the past (like Trump is trying to do) isn't the answer, and a grand battle against automation is exactly that.

    61. Re:UBI, it's about time by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      Social Democracy is not Democratic Socialism.

    62. Re:UBI, it's about time by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Sense of purpose and a feeling of community ( aka contentedness) are much more important to happiness in my personal observation.

      I guess. I don't know, really. Never seemed that way to me. I see people who are out there without their basic needs met, without the capacity to grow in our economy, with no hope and no opportunity; I figured they need help, need to be brought up and granted economic security and independence. They can figure out their place in life themselves.

    63. Re:UBI, it's about time by tbannist · · Score: 1

      But how is half the population at 100% employment and half the population at 0% employment any better than all the population at 50% employment? At least with all the population at 50% employment everyone is kindof all in it together. UBI just sounds like some horrible dystopia where the people who can fight for the few remaining jobs get to live like kings while everyone else lives on the scraps. A gradual reduction in the workweek would allow everyone to get used to working less and having more leisure and wouldn't create a bloodbath of people fighting for fewer and fewer jobs.

      Ok, the simple problems here:
      1) Per hours wages will not double if you cut the work time in half, lump pay will be cut so most people will only earn half of what they earned before.
      2) Forcing everyone with a job to take a 50% pay cut would disrupt the lives of the employed, and they would hate you for it.
      3) There will be twice as much competition for every job and effectively every one would now have to have 2 jobs to make ends meet.
      4) There will definite still be a bloodbath of people fighting over the fewer and fewer jobs.

      Basically, I think you plan would accomplish nothing other than creating a very angry mob that wants to separate your head from your shoulders. I wish it would work, because hey who wouldn't want to work half as much for the same pay, but you can't force that and even if you could, inflation would just consume the gains.

      UBI, on the other hand has a lot of upsides that you are missing. Some major points in it's favour:
      1) terrible jobs need to pay more money to get people to do them.
      2) no need for a minimum wage, which means jobs that aren't very valuable but aren't terrible can pay less money.
      3) eliminates the need for many people to have a job simply so they can continue eating, or having a roof.
      4) reduces the negative effects of firing people for incompetence, poor behaviour and bad attitudes.
      5) makes it easier to start new businesses (by reducing the risk of failure),
      6) allows people to work on something they truly love even if you can't figure out how to monetize it.

      I think the major problem with UBI is going to be convinced people to take it seriously and then making sure that it's actually enough for people to survive on, without being too much of a drain on the country's economy. There will be constant pressure to decrease it from conservative protestants who don't think anyone should be allowed to get away with "not working" according to their views, and constant pressure from liberal socialists that it's not enough money.

      The biggest challenge is going to be that much of the money needed to provide a UBI would have to be taxed from the middle class and the working poor and that won't be an easy sell, the rich can't (and wouldn't even if they could) fund it by themselves. In America, at least, too many people will be looking at "what's in it for me" first and foremost and those who don't see an upside for themselves will pour money into defeating it.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    64. Re: UBI, it's about time by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      No, it doesn't and you look stupid when you say things like that

      You should probably read up on a subject before you open your yap on something you clearly know nothing about. Might want to bone up on reading comprehension too. You know, before you make yourself look stupid.

      I said run AND maintain. Those mid-century steam trains where huge. The Union Pacific Big Boy was a 4-8-8-4 and was a 135 feet long. When one of those, or other trains like it where taken off the main line for inspection and maintenance it could easy take 125 men or more to accomplish this task.

      Every square inch of the boiler had to be inspected, every nut and bolt on it. All the boiler tubes, every driving rod had to be inspected for cracks. Tires, yes trains had tires, on the driving wheels replaced. There was thousands of parts that had to be inspected. An they only had a few days to get this accomplished.

      Here, educate yourself. Start here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    65. Re:UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 1

      In many places in the USA you're not even allowed to do what you want with your own body:
      Restricted abortions, laws against sodomy, laws against use of drugs, laws against suicide (wtf, we can't even take the exit voluntarily?)...

      Yeah, lots of freedom...

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    66. Re:UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Your arguments are becoming more unhinged as time goes on, maybe time to re-medicate?

      I am actually quite happy about the tariffs. I want more. I specifically want tariffs on high tech industries and machinery.
      Heavy.
      Damn.
      Tariffs.

      Tariffs are the only thing the orange baboon occupying the White House has done that I approve of.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    67. Re:UBI, it's about time by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Not to burst your bubble or anything, but Venezuela is democratic. There are a bunch of examples of good socialist democracies, but you can't ignore the bad one. Things did not go well for Venezuela depending upon their oil income and reducing the work-week.

      (Oh hey, Chavez is dead.)

    68. Re:UBI, it's about time by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      We either plan for it now or start buying pitchforks and torches. And oiling up the guillotines because we _will_ eat the rich.

      Eating the rich seems like a pretty good way of ensuring that there won't be anyone to tax to pay for that universal basic income you want...

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    69. Re:UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Yeah. I know. We'll just have to hope that we have enough hackers and resources on our side to disable the kill-bots.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    70. Re:UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Their "wealth" will still be there. We're just going to spread it around to people who will administer it with more equanimity and don't have such a need to hoard more excess than they need. Institute an inheritance tax of 90%, capital gains tax of 90% and you'll see how quickly things can iron themselves out. The concentration of wealth has occurred because we have the best government and laws that the wealthy can buy for themselves.

      Why if productivity increases 75% aren't we all working 75% less? That is part of the problem, if we had allowed wealth (in the form of free time) to get distributed fairly we'd all be working 8 hour weeks and all of us would have jobs. Even you XxtraLarGe would be able to work less and might have time to take care of your health, eat better and not be so overweight.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    71. Re: UBI, it's about time by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      What could they all possibly do?

      You're asking this out of ignorance. That's ok, it's curable. It hits me too how god-damn COMPLICATED things used to be back in the day.

      But come on, trains to go a train-yard to get maintenance. This isn't some madmax scenario where they crawl under the hood while it's travelling to fix stuff. Although that'd be cool.... (I'm tentatively excited about that movie "Engine Heart".) And YES, my grandpa used to ride the caboose of UP trains with a flashlight. He was a glorified back-up blinking light. That's it. They used to employ people for this.

    72. Re:UBI, it's about time by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      Their "wealth" will still be there. We're just going to spread it around to people who will administer it with more equanimity and don't have such a need to hoard more excess than they need. Institute an inheritance tax of 90%, capital gains tax of 90% and you'll see how quickly things can iron themselves out. The concentration of wealth has occurred because we have the best government and laws that the wealthy can buy for themselves.

      You'll see how quickly the rich will move to Belize, the Grand Caymans, and so on. They have a lot more mobility than you or me.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    73. Re: UBI, it's about time by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      Not really. Most people do it small and slowly. This minimizes the risk.

    74. Re:UBI, it's about time by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      That's not a given. Costs would rise, as you can't employ 2 50% workers for the cost of one. It assumes sufficient discretionary spending from 50% workers to support the current economy.

      But how is half the population at 100% employment and half the population at 0% employment any better than all the population at 50% employment? At least with all the population at 50% employment everyone is kindof all in it together. UBI just sounds like some horrible dystopia where the people who can fight for the few remaining jobs get to live like kings while everyone else lives on the scraps. A gradual reduction in the workweek would allow everyone to get used to working less and having more leisure and wouldn't create a bloodbath of people fighting for fewer and fewer jobs.

      Assume you have five potential workers, A to E. E doesn't work. A to D earn 100 units each, and contribute 5 units of tax to pay E's benefts of 20 units. Basic household costs are 45 units, so A to D have 50 units for fun. A to D each produce 25 unit.s of profit, based on 200 units of output, their 100 units of pay, and 75 units of cost, 25 for staff overheads, 50 for materials. Aggregate demand for higher value goods is 200, basic goods 200 units, 400 total.

      E joins, and hours are rebalanced, as is pay, and E lives better. A to D now get 80 units of pay, but no tax to pay. They have 35 units of money for fun, so 175 units total, for basics 225. Overall demand is still 400 units, but the 225 basic units need fewer people. to satisfy F is now out of a job, so A to E now have to pay 4 units each to support F. They have 1 day extra off a week, but are down 40% on their spending for fun stuff, so spend the weekend at home. Meanwhile, the cost of resources is the same, but staff overheads per worker are only 10% less, and company profitability is affected. The company cuts wages by 2.5 units, and now their pay for fun has almost halved. This causes a loss of consumer confidence and G loses their job as a result. A to E now have to pay another 4 units each to support G, and the loss in demand means H loses their job. There is now a demand for a three day week to keep everyone employed.

      It would be nice to work less, but the issue is pay, and how to manage the transitions.

    75. Re: UBI, it's about time by BigDogCH · · Score: 1

      125 seems pretty believable; I'm certain you aren't to assume they are all riding on the train lol. This isn't Railroad Tycoon. These engines needed constant maintenance, materials, and work. Then factor in the water stops, fuel stops, maintenance/repair depots, parts, and all the staffing needed at each of those resources. If you factor all that in, 125 seems low actually. You have to consider the steam engines impact on many supporting industries; its about more than the guy behind the steering wheel (I imagine there is one, and it does nothing).

      With that said, the cabbage picking machines will make cabbage picking machine assembly, sales, and maintenance jobs as well. Higher paying jobs, with less "work".

    76. Re:UBI, it's about time by lucia-om · · Score: 1

      Basic needs cannot be met without having universal healthcare; and I can't even imagine how a basic income could be calculated without having that first.

    77. Re: UBI, it's about time by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      The Dividend is 12.5% in my current model, and it puts a complete and total end to homelessness and hunger

      No, it doesn't. If you think that there's an economic solution to homelessness and hunger, you don't really understand the problem.

    78. Re:UBI, it's about time by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      2) Forcing everyone with a job to take a 50% pay cut would disrupt the lives of the employed, and they would hate you for it.
      3) There will be twice as much competition for every job and effectively every one would now have to have 2 jobs to make ends meet.

      I'm not proposing cutting the workweek to 20 hours tomorrow. We don't have anywhere near 50% unemployment so that would make no sense. At this point even capping it at 40 would generate some jobs as many people work more than 40 hours per week. I would also propose not allowing people to work more than 40 hours per week even if they work multiple jobs. If we dropped the maximum number of hours a person could work by 1 hour per year then it would be a nice smooth 40 year transition but in reality it should probably be much slower than that. It could be something as simple as anytime that unemployment stayed above 10% for a year the following year the maximum workweek dropped by 1 hour. A 1 hour drop in the maximum workweek should drop unemployment by about 2.5% if all those jobs are still done. Basically, it should be possible to control unemployment by manipulating the maximum workweek allowed.

    79. Re: UBI, it's about time by losfromla · · Score: 1

      It won't matter, we keep the factories and the land and we tax them on their way out. The Belizeans too will have pitchforks and families to feed. There will be no safe haven for those cockroaches.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    80. Re:UBI, it's about time by q_e_t · · Score: 1

      Venuzuela is currently being casigated, especially by those that espouse social democracy, for being undemocratic.

      But you are still confusing social democracy with democratic socialism, and its less democratic cousins. Denmark is a social democracy, for example, but has little in common with, say, the system(s) used in the USSR, even NEP.

    81. Re:UBI, it's about time by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Especially a business where you're effectively a civil servant and the only difference is a baroque mechanism for how you get paid. You don't pay too much taxes - other people's taxes pay you.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    82. Re: UBI, it's about time by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Some people love it, others hate it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    83. Re: UBI, it's about time by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      If you think that there's an economic solution to homelessness and hunger, you don't really understand the problem.

      Of course it's an economic problem: nobody can profit from these people, so they leave them to rot.

      A 12.5% dividend would have paid nearly $7,000 per person per year in 2016. Note that HUD puts 75% of qualified applicants on a waiting list, and they can be there for 10 or 15 years--no benefits. This bump pushes people up high enough that HUD's current budget can reach all qualified, because they're less-poor and so are qualified for less of a housing subsidy: if you get a $900 subsidy and now you're only poor enough for a $300 subsidy, then three households like yours get a subsidy instead of one.

      To put this into perspective: HUD limit in Baltimore City for two adults is $27,000. The Dividend would bump a two-adult household making $23,000 up to a take-home income of $34,000. That means no subsidy, and that money is available for all those who still need it.

      Further, with this additional income, the poor and middle-class are spending more. Because the impact is greatest on the lowest end, the poorest areas experience the greatest increase in consumer spending power.

      Someone can get very rich by opening businesses here, but they won't keep up with demand unless they hire employees. These consumers are spending the money which becomes the revenue stream to pay those employees's wages.

      With these additional wages, people become even less poor. The load on welfare goes down, the tax revenue goes up, and the landlords become very rich renting apartments to these people.

      So unless you can convince everyone with the capacity to operate a rental property and a store to not become very rich, there will be housing and jobs for these people.

      If you can stop all motivation of self-serving human greed in the United States, we can call the ghosts of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin to let them know communism works. Otherwise, this raging capitalist solution will totally end homelessness and hunger in the United States.

    84. Re:UBI, it's about time by jtgd · · Score: 1

      I don't think the problem is nearly so dire as these people are saying.....

      AI and robotics is not going to cause mass unemployment for at least a couple of decades I estimate.....

      I assume you don't have children.

      --
      J
  2. Too Early by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't deny that one day UBI might be feasible, and even necessary but it's just too soon and too radical, especially for the US. He's not going to get his party's nomination, and if he does, it's 4 more years of Trump.

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    1. Re:Too Early by Lab+Rat+Jason · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Look, lets call a spade a spade here... he is asking for socialism. His platform is "democracy is dead." People need to get comfortable saying that, because that's what it is... if you are for UBI, you are a socialist. ;)

      --
      Which has more power: the hammer, or the anvil?
    2. Re:Too Early by be951 · · Score: 1

      I don't deny that one day UBI might be feasible, and even necessary but it's just too soon

      What's too soon? 3-5 years from now, when this guy would be able to start working on it? What will unemployment look like then? And how long would it take to implement something like UBI? Years, most likely, from when it gets introduced. Will 6-8 years from now still be too soon? That probably depends on how fast you believe automation and AI/machine learning/other job-impacting tech will advance. If it's quite slow, maybe that time frame is too quick. I guess we've got a couple of years to see what happens before anyone needs to think about voting for a UBI (presidential) platform.

    3. Re:Too Early by Train0987 · · Score: 1

      Also be sure to look up what happens when fiat currency is printed at will without the corresponding increase in GDP to back it up. Zimbabwe, anyone?

    4. Re:Too Early by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      What the actual fuck makes you think the people you're referring to aren't going to find some handy way to weasel out of handing over their wealth? IT WILL NOT WORK!

    5. Re:Too Early by Train0987 · · Score: 1

      Who are you to determine what I need and how much of my property you get to confiscate for yourself? You sound like the greedy one.

    6. Re:Too Early by Train0987 · · Score: 1

      " A 10-15% VAT tax, like most of the rest of the world has, would pay for UBI and universal healthcare."

      Then it should be simple for you to name a place in the world that has UBI and universal healthcare.

    7. Re:Too Early by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      A 10-15% VAT tax, like most of the rest of the world has, would pay for UBI and universal healthcare.

      Before you could even come close do enacting some type of VAT like that, you'd have to:

      1. Entirely remove, and BAN from existence by law, the current income tax we have now.

      2. You'd have to also get rid of all state and local taxes...and the Feds can't dictate that type of policy directly to the states, so, guessing that wouldn't fly.

      To get something like that through, you'd have to make it the ONLY tax there is...and also figure how to divvy that up between the states too so they could get their share for local needs.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    8. Re:Too Early by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Look, lets call a spade a spade here... he is asking for socialism.

      Yes?

      His platform is "democracy is dead."

      what's that got to do with democracy being dead?

      if you are for UBI, you are a socialist. ;)

      You say that like it's a bad thing. Meanwhile people living in social democracies enjoy a high standard of living and general happiness.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    9. Re:Too Early by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      You know, it is tax season, and you can voluntarily donate as much as you like to the Federal Government! Perhaps you should set an example for us all, and donate every penny above $59,000 that you make (for that is the median income in the US).

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    10. Re:Too Early by Lab+Rat+Jason · · Score: 1

      My religion tells me that I should be a communist. I'm actually not calling socialism a bad thing, I'm just saying people need to evaluate their professed values and square them with the government we choose and the actions we outwardly do. I honestly believe that any system of government would work if men's hearts were pure, but none of them work because of the evils we allow to permeate our hearts (I'm looking at you greed).

      Also good call about the democracy thing... I misspoke, and should have said capitalism. Easy to confuse the two.

      --
      Which has more power: the hammer, or the anvil?
    11. Re:Too Early by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      'A socialist'/'bad at math and can't see past the end of own nose'

      Same thing. Your not disagreeing.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    12. Re: Too Early by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      The problem is not in feasibility. UBI essentially has been created in top socialist countries in nostalgic hey day of Cold War.

      The problem is not in inequality, the problem is in equality.

      Everybody knows how bad equality was in that Soviet block and how it eventually led to economic bankruptcy of USSR. It created atmosphere of laziness and absence of hope.

      That's why you NEED inequality. A member of the strata should be afraid to fall to the lower level of it and he should hope to get to the higher level.

      That's how averaged, socially significant human psychology works.

      Now, what about very unequal Western societies like America? One would say that the the discrepancy beween the earnings of the bottom man and the top man is 1 fricking million times.

      Thats true. Yet, that does not mean that there is no place for that bad equality in that system. You see, in economically normal society the strata have similar barriers (ratio of population between stratas) and stimulus (ratio of income between stratas). The weak point of such an ideal Lorenz curve is when suddenly there is a on overflow of population inone strata compared to these ratios. That indicates to the lack of social mobility, because thats how the normal strata structure emerges - by creating a fair enough system of mobility where people are promoted on merits and demoted on inadequacies.

      Large linear portions of Lorenz curve are indicators of illnesses.

      In this respect , American economy looks surprisingly healthy. I analized the 2014 data on AGI of American taxpayers and found that it lies on that ideal curve quite well. We do give a chance to people to climb to the top and we ruthlessly punish those who do not fit by demoting them to the economic misery. Some people experience that rollercoaster several times during their lives.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    13. Re:Too Early by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "About half the people in this country make more than they need"

      That you seem to not see the evil in this is what worries me. 'more than they need' is easily defined into 'more than me'. And then, of course, it will be taken if we allow it.

      How about you go out and get what you need on your own? K, thanks, bi.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    14. Re:Too Early by Z80a · · Score: 1

      He will be offering a solution to the poor people unlike hillary did, If well marketed enough, might just work.
      Unless of course he falls for the social justice meme and starts to spout a lot of racial charged shit.

    15. Re:Too Early by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      We already pay taxes. More taxes?

      And much of the world want to come here, not because we have low taxes, but because they perceive the opportunity to earn enough to thrive in spite of those taxes.

      Breaking that dream is shameful.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    16. Re:Too Early by BlueStrat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm good with that. I'm a socialist. That is miles and miles better than sociopathic conservative corporatist.

      Yeah, the US as the new Venezuela.

      Sounds positively delightful as it's worked out so well for Venezuelans.

      UBI avoids the pitfalls of the old Soviet quip "We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us." by eliminating the "..we pretend to work" bit.

      Brilliant.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    17. Re:Too Early by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      My religion tells me that I should be a communist. I'm actually not calling socialism a bad thing,

      You seem to have confused socialism with the most extreme manifestations of it.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    18. Re:Too Early by Lab+Rat+Jason · · Score: 1

      i'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, given that I have not mentioned any specific implementation of it. (neither a specific religion, no a specific implementation of socialism)

      --
      Which has more power: the hammer, or the anvil?
    19. Re:Too Early by ichimunki · · Score: 1

      I love how when someone says "I'm a socialist" the right-winger brings up Venezuela. But when someone says "let's have single-payer healthcare like all of Europe", suddenly the right-winger says, "that's socialism".

      --
      I do not have a signature
    20. Re:Too Early by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      i'm not sure how you came to that conclusion

      Well you babbling about communism was what gave me the first clue.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    21. Re:Too Early by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't necessarily bankrupt us. It could simply pay out a laughably small amount instead.

      If you see it as a replacement to all the various welfare programs, and take the

      • $910B from social security
      • $588B from medicare
      • $368B from medicaid
      • $563B from various other programs
      • and maybe trim the military a little of their $584B to make up whatever isn't welfare from the "various" category.

      You get $2.5 trillion/year. In welfare. This is what the nation is ALREADY paying all those freeloading bums. Divide that among the 325.7 million (2017) people we've got, and everyone gets $7,500 a year. Or ~$620 month.

      If doing away with EVERY AND ALL safety nets and replacing them with a $620 check every month sounds like a good idea to you, then you'd be for UBI. Old people out of work, the disabled, sick grandmas, the recently laid off, those on food stamps, all these people would be screwed by UBI. They would be given a check like everyone else and that's that. Let the free market decide how do deal with them.

      If you flipped that on immediately, there would be mass exodus from the cities into cheaper rural living. $600/mo gets you an apartment and groceries in Iowa. This would be sheer chaos that nobody wants and in the grand tradition of legislature it would be "phased in". How fast they do it, and how exactly would be a really big issue and there'd be lots of arguing. Whenever they turned it on, the payout would be REAL small initially. But fundamentally, the numbers and effects remain.

      Personally, I don't like those numbers. But then again, I've got a cooshy job and I don't receive welfare.

    22. Re:Too Early by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Well, they could say that the health care in Venezuela is socialism. Is that your point?

    23. Re:Too Early by jezwel · · Score: 1
      I think UBI needs to be higher than what you've stated - I'm in a higher cost country though, could just be my take.
      Marginal income tax thresholds are lowered slightly, so that anyone already making an ok wage pays back the UBI via extra taxes and has a net affect of $0 overall. Those on lower taxable incomes benefit, those on higher contribute more. You'd need to look at what deductions are claimable - we've got a lot of issues right now with that in Au.
      Removal of all health related care sounds weird - thought that should be covered by universal health cover. Studies seem to indicate Americans are paying up to 3x for the same level of health services as other nations, so socialising that could mean better overall coverage. Have fun de-privatising your health care!

      Oh, don't forget the disruption when you make a few million public servants redundant - no need for a bunch of agencies working out who to give some money too when everyone gets UBI. That also translates to more money in the pot (eventually) from reduced headcount to increase the UBI.

      Tl:dr: UBI needs a *lot* of modelling.

    24. Re: Too Early by kenh · · Score: 1

      About half the people in this country make more than they need,

      Funny, those are the only people that pay income taxes, since 47% of income tax filers either pay no income taxes or collect refunds that exceed any monies withheld from their paychecks.

      --
      Ken
    25. Re: Too Early by kenh · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Show me your numbers.

      So-called 'obamacare' insurance plans cost $1,500/month (before subsidies) for a family of four, and have WILD co-pays and deductibles. Covering 100% of medical expenses will cost each family of four in excess of $3K/month - add a modest $1K/month UBI per person ($4K/month) and that family of four cost $7K/month - now multiply that by 100 million and pay that each month.

      --
      Ken
    26. Re: Too Early by kenh · · Score: 1

      Gov't handouts aren't for buying real estate.

      --
      Ken
    27. Re: Too Early by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Why do you think people need to be afraid?

      --
      Eat the rich.
    28. Re:Too Early by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      I don't deny that one day UBI might be feasible, and even necessary but it's just too soon

      What's too soon? 3-5 years from now, when this guy would be able to start working on it? What will unemployment look like then? And how long would it take to implement something like UBI? Years, most likely, from when it gets introduced. Will 6-8 years from now still be too soon?

      Predicting the distant future on a timeline is always a futile task. Certainly no time in the next decade will UBI make any sense. Let's reevaluate in 10 years and see if we're any closer. UBI only makes sense if there is a significant portion of the population unable to get decent work (and not just from a temporary recession). Once 25-40% of people can't work, and have no prospect of a job in the long term even if they retrain, then it's time to look at UBI and see if that might benefit the country as a whole. Right now, anyone can get a job, it might not be one they want or consider fitting their station in life, but anyone can make a living wage if they are willing to look a while and do what they consider demeaning work.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    29. Re: Too Early by DethLok · · Score: 1

      And the US health system is the most expensive for the least amount of health.

      More than a couple of other nations have far cheaper and far better healthcare than the US.

      The way it has been done in the past does not mean that it has to be the same in the future.

    30. Re:Too Early by be951 · · Score: 1

      Once 25-40% of people can't work, and have no prospect of a job in the long term even if they retrain, then it's time to look at UBI

      So basically, wait until the horses are out, then start thinking about closing the barn door? Trying to play catch-up after things get bad doesn't seem smart.

      Right now, anyone can get a job... anyone can make a living wage

      U6 (which includes long-term unemployed, discouraged, workers who are part time solely for economic reasons, etc...) says otherwise. 8.2% of people can't find adequate, sustainable employment. That could obviously grow significantly if a few market segments engage widespread adoption of automation over the next several years. Waiting ten years to start thinking about dealing with those issues -- which we know are coming -- is just dumb. Thinking about it, planning, and evaluating, starting in the next few years so that we're positioned to start implementing it within a few years after that (if necessary) is the smart approach.

    31. Re:Too Early by tbannist · · Score: 1

      No, if you are for UBI, you are bad at math and also can't see past the end of your own nose. Seriously: Do the math for 300,000,000 people. It would bankrupt the country in ONE YEAR. Also, I'm convinced that crime and other social problems would get worse, not better.

      What? If paying everyone $1000 a month would bankrupt the country, how does your country manage to pay the actual salaries that people already have? I've done the math and those 300,000,000 mostly already have jobs or other income that exceeds $1000 and your country is only morally and intellectually bankrupt (that's a joke, son). Yes, taxes would have to go up, but in the simplest example, if everyone was paying an additional $12,000 in taxes, you'd be able to afford to give everyone $12,000 in UBI. Now, increasing taxes might be politically impossible, but the UBI is certainly not fiscally impossible like you claim.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    32. Re: Too Early by tbannist · · Score: 1

      On the upside, it sounds like nothing much would change, then.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    33. Re:Too Early by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Then it's probably a good thing that you have a job, right? The UBI is a Universal Basic Income, not a Replace Your Current Job income or it would be called RYCJ.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    34. Re:Too Early by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Once 25-40% of people can't work, and have no prospect of a job in the long term even if they retrain, then it's time to look at UBI and see if that might benefit the country as a whole.

      I suspect that if you reach that point, it might be a bit too late to try and implement UBI. For reference, 25% was the peak unemployment rate of the Great Depression and that experience warped a generation of people and you want to wait until something worse that the Great Depression happens?

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    35. Re:Too Early by tbannist · · Score: 1

      He will be offering a solution to the poor people unlike hillary did, If well marketed enough, might just work. Unless of course he falls for the social justice meme and starts to spout a lot of racial charged shit.

      Or, if they fall for the social justice meme and believe it when the alt-right starts claiming that he spouts a lot a racially charged shit.

      Just saying, it doesn't matter if he did it or not, as long as they believe the people claiming he did.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    36. Re:Too Early by werepants · · Score: 1

      Seriously: Do the math for 300,000,000 people. It would bankrupt the country in ONE YEAR.

      Do your own math, genius. UBI would not be a flat payout to 300,000,000. There are only 240M adults in the US, for starters. In reality, it would essentially be a $12,000 reverse tax to the most impoverished, and taper off with increased income. It would replace welfare and possibly social security, which come out to nearly $2T. It's not hard at all to construct a UBI system that comes out revenue neutral (or even positive).

      It gets rid of the backwards incentive structure of welfare. It reduces all the complexity and bureaucracy of the current entitlement programs. Realistically, UBI would cost a hell of a lot less than the tax handout the GOP just gave to the rich. Rather than approaching the problem with the nuance of a struggling 2nd grader, do the math for yourself, understand how it is meant to work, and then you can make an informed argument against the idea.

    37. Re:Too Early by losfromla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's working well for Norway, Sweden, Germany, Italy, France, basically all of the EU.
      I don't understand how my fellow USians are so angrily entrenched in a system that serves only the wealthy and where a serious illness can result in poverty and destitution for generations.

      Strat, what is wrong with a society that provides for all? It is possible but the anger, jealousy, and racism aren't allowing it to happen. Why shouldn't we start by reducing the work-week to 30 hours? Where is it written that we _have_to_ work 40 hours? Why not 10? Productivity increases should have been distributed equally but sadly they accrued to the wealthy only. If productivity doubled, in a fair world, we'd all reduce our work hours in half. What is wrong with that in your view?

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    38. Re:Too Early by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      I think UBI needs to be higher than what you've stated

      Ha, sure. Whatever floats your boat. Now you just have to find some way to pay for it.

      But... why does it need to pay out more? What's the purpose you're aiming for?

      Marginal income tax thresholds are lowered slightly,

      . . . You mean, hella increased? Because you want UBI to PAY OUT more, you're going to have to TAKE IN more.

      You'd need to look at what deductions are claimable - we've got a lot of issues right now with that in Au.

      Yeah, here too. That's an overall true statement regardless of UBI. But nobody likes getting rid of their loopholes, everyone agrees there are too many loopholes, but take a look at any specific one and it's hard to argue for it to be removed and you get an army of people defending it. Like in the midwest, everyone gets a homesteader deduction because 100 years ago someone developed some land. Utter bullshit. But good luck getting rid of it, and it'd just be a "fuck you" to middle class. Political suicide and unneeded. Doing anything with rich people's money and the capital gains loophole would likewise kill your donations. Axing loopholes with non-profits has a real hard time with taking food from orphans and such. Personally, I'd like to see the oil subsidies go away.

      Removal of all health related care sounds weird - thought that should be covered by universal health cover.

      Me too. But if you take that out of the UBI budget (and... probably MORE if you want a single-payer system) then the UBI checks are only $400/mo. You just said you wanted UBI to be more. Like, ok, but you've got to choose what you send the money on. This is budgeting 101, if money goes towards this, it can't go towards that.

      Oh, don't forget the disruption when you make a few million public servants redundant - no need for a bunch of agencies working out who to give some money too when everyone gets UBI.

      First off, there's not that many people all things considered. Second, managing UBI would definitely take a small army of clerks and bureaucrats. And welcome to the clusterfuck of immigration if having a birth on US soil entitles the child to a $600 check every month. But yes, those services would be streamlined and we could cut loose some government employees. The savings there is OMG minuscule compared to the trillions they'd be slinging about.

      UBI DOES need a lot more modelling. But not even "modelling". The proponents just need to sit down and do some REAL basic math to figure out just how much money is on the table and realize how small UBI checks would be. Anyone claiming people will get $1000/mo is just delusional.

    39. Re: Too Early by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      That's how it works.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    40. Re: Too Early by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Says who?

      --
      Eat the rich.
    41. Re:Too Early by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      It's working well for Norway, Sweden, Germany, Italy, France, basically all of the EU.

      That's quite debatable.

      Socialism and other collectivist ideologies can work among smaller populations and populations who are fairly culturally, ideologically, and ethnically homogeneous. It breaks down among large and diverse populations as found in the former USSR and the USA.

      This is largely due to differing views on what is a 'fair share' and what is 'reasonable' as they vary widely among differing ethnicities, cultures, religions, etc.

      We're seeing it break down in those regions and nations you mention in real-time with the influx of large numbers of foreigners with vastly differing cultures and norms.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    42. Re: Too Early by losfromla · · Score: 1

      What you're saying is that racism doesn't let it happen. Sad, ain't it?

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    43. Re: Too Early by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      What you're saying is that racism doesn't let it happen. Sad, ain't it?

      WTF!? How did you get racism out of that?

      It has nothing to do with racism. It's simply that people have differing cultures, morals, ideas about what is "just" and "unjust", individual liberty, privacy, etc etc etc. There will always be a portion of the population that feels (rightly or wrongly) that they're being treated unjustly. This causes internal strife, conflict, hatred, and eventually violence and a breakdown of the society, the economy, and eventually leads to revolution, death, and destruction.

      Another problem with collectivist types of societies is that they depend on the individual acting against their own interests in favor of the collective necessitating a police/surveillance-state to enforce compliance, whereas capitalism harnesses the power of people's own self-interest to benefit everyone.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  3. Exactly. by Type44Q · · Score: 2

    governments inability to address large scale problems

    And what makes him think 'government' would perform any differently with him behind the wheel?? GTFOH (i.e. never mind; I don't want to know).

  4. Pat Paulsen by tomhath · · Score: 1
  5. He supports single payer health care by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    right here, so all else being equal he gets my (primary) vote in favor of anyone else who doesn't.

    I'd rather see him stumping on Medicare for All than basic income though.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:He supports single payer health care by Train0987 · · Score: 2

      ""Free money for all" does get you the vote from those people."

      Unless they happen to have a very basic understanding of economics. If printing a ton of fiat and handing it out to the population worked then the US Gov't would've been doing it for the past 100 years.

    2. Re:He supports single payer health care by amorsen · · Score: 1

      If printing a ton of fiat and handing it out to the population worked then the US Gov't would've been doing it for the past 100 years.

      Funny you should mention 100 years. 100 years ago the world was still infested with the gold bug. Only in the thirties did economists begin to gain a basic understanding of what money is.

      To this day, a majority of economists still believe that it is possible for every nation in the world to have a balanced budget while overall world economy is expanding. Most politicians believe that a prudent nation should run a trade surplus. They don't appear to understand that for every nation with a surplus, there's a deficit somewhere else.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  6. Re:Oh boy by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

    The entertainment of the 2020 Democrat primaries is going to be a lot more interesting than even the Republican 2016 primaries were.

    Who will win? Old traditional Democrats or one of the new variety of young Leftists?

    It's going to be a joke like the 2016 primaries were- and probably end up with some ridiculous extremist winning the nomination. UBI guy, Bernie Sanders, Kanye West, Oprah Winfrey? Can we not have a decent level headed somewhat moderate person please? Why are all the names being put forwards either extremists or just plain bonkers.

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  7. I like his optimism ... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... thinking there will still be a United States in 2020.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:I like his optimism ... by darth.hunterix · · Score: 1

      Not really. There was "People's Republic of Hungary", "People's Republic of Poland" and a country nobody wanted, as both Czech and Slovaks preferred to go their separate ways except nobody cared. All three states run by Stalinists.

      --
      What is best in life? Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.
  8. Wish he'd campaign on an independent ticket... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    At this point in USA history it is really time to make a stand towards eliminating our party system. The easiest way to do that is get a few big players campaigning on independent tickets, or small third parties with the goal of gaining the 5-10 percent for national recognition and then start winning overall elections once the big parties have begun faltering.

    Until that happens we will see the same mess repeating that has been for the past 200+ years of American History.

    1. Re:Wish he'd campaign on an independent ticket... by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 4, Interesting

      At this point in USA history it is really time to make a stand towards eliminating our party system. The easiest way to do that is get a few big players campaigning on independent tickets, or small third parties with the goal of gaining the 5-10 percent for national recognition and then start winning overall elections once the big parties have begun faltering.

      Until that happens we will see the same mess repeating that has been for the past 200+ years of American History.

      Yeah, it's sad that so many of the founding fathers had the right idea (that political parties were a bad idea), and now we have an institutionalized system that pretty much guarantees an ongoing 2 party system.

      I've always liked the idea that one of the houses (probably representatives) be taken over by a Sortocracy (aka lottocracy) , like was in place in Athens and many other Greek city states. Basically, the idea is that representatives are chosen at random from a pool of eligible citizens. Yeah, you get a few crack-pots in that way, but there are many benefits.

      1) It is a TRUE representation of the population. It's not a polarized system like you get with voting. Anyone can put their name forwards. The house represents the people.
      2) You don't have to be wealthy to rule. You don't have to be rich enough to go for years without working in order to fund a campaign.
      3) You don't have to have the backing of a party. You are allowed to have your own ideas and thoughts.
      4) You don't have any exposure to lobbyists. Lobbyists are powerless to influence you.
      5) Representatives do what they think is right, not what they think will get them elected (goes back to point 1).

      It's the best way to get a truly representative body and not the polar ends of the spectrum that you end up with with party elected politics.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:Wish he'd campaign on an independent ticket... by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2

      1) It is a TRUE representation of the population. It's not a polarized system like you get with voting. Anyone can put their name forwards. The house represents the people.

      If it is opt-in, then only those who can afford being away from their job for 1-6 years (depending on how it is implemented) will opt-in. Biasing the pool. If it is not opt-in, those who cannot afford such a breach in their employment history will refuse to answer when selected.

      One would be paid whilst serving the nation by the nation. The same as what happens today. Congressmen receive a salary once they're elected.

      2) You don't have to be wealthy to rule. You don't have to be rich enough to go for years without working in order to fund a campaign.

      But you either have to be able to afford the time not at your job, or not have a job to miss out on anyway. Either way, bad representation.

      Not all...see above point.

      3) You don't have to have the backing of a party. You are allowed to have your own ideas and thoughts.

      Until it comes to actually trying to get anything done. This will result in a perpetual deadlock, only interrupted when a skilled liar pushes an action.

      There wouldn't necessarily be ANY parties in the sorti-elected government. They might separate themselves into groups once elected, or associate with parties. Compare it to today though where as many as 10%-50% of people prefer a third party to the main party (depending on who you believe)... What % of senators are third-party or in either house? Very few. You need the backing of one of two main parties to win an election- even though a significant portion of the country identify with neither party.

      4) You don't have any exposure to lobbyists. Lobbyists are powerless to influence you.

      HAHAHAHAHA! They'll be the ones offering catering services at the votes!

      They can't fund the election of the representatives because the representatives don't have any election costs. All they could possibly do is bribe the representatives (which is already illegal) and would result in crippling fines on the lobbyists and expulsion/jail time for the reps and lobbyists offering the bribes.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  9. Promising Free Shit by sexconker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Promising free shit to the young, stupid, and lazy worked out so great for Bernie, didn't it?

    These people should first worry about the DNC existing long enough to put forth a candidate in 2020. It's a bit premature to be hobbling together a hollow platform that will only get you Bernied.

    Beyond that, why are you planning for action in 2020 when you'll be up against an incumbent POTUS? (For all of you who can't fathom Trump being reelected - Bush Jr. was reviled and won reelection, and the popular vote, easily. This happened because he was the incumbent and people fear change. The DNC put forth a bland turkey-burger candidate knowing they didn't want to waste any real effort against an incumbent. And of course, Obama sat and watched as the economy burned and our rights were stripped away and the surveillance state grew. He, too, won reelection handily.)

    You save your plays until 2024 unless you want to tip your hand and risk being scooped. It might make sense to throw your hat into the ring in 2020 and get your name out there, but you do NOT put your platform out there. It'll just have 4 extra years to be dismantled, attacked, made irrelevant, or copied.

    1. Re:Promising Free Shit by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Promising free shit to the young, stupid, and lazy worked out so great for Bernie, didn't it?
      These people should first worry about the DNC existing long enough to put forth a candidate in 2020.

      Uh, wait. The DNC is who screwed Sanders. Promising people free shit worked out great, except that it didn't jibe with the DNC's mission of sucking corporate cock. It worked out so well for Sanders that he actually attracted voters who eventually went on to vote for Trump specifically because they couldn't vote for Sanders.

      It's a bit premature to be hobbling together a hollow platform that will only get you Bernied.

      It's a big jerkoff waste of time if he doesn't have a strategy for making the DNC do the will of Democratic voters, but I don't think premature is the right word.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Promising Free Shit by Holi · · Score: 1

      You mean the fact he did far better in the primaries then anyone expected him to do? So yes, it seems it worked out amazingly well. Had the playing field not been so heavily weighted to his opponent he probably would have cinched the nomination.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    3. Re:Promising Free Shit by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      Promising to spend their tax dollars on free college education instead of stupid wars in the Middle East worked out so great for Bernie, didn't it?

      FTFW. Bernie is still the most popular elected politician in the country -- a fact even Fox News agrees with.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    4. Re:Promising Free Shit by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      You save your plays until 2024 unless you want to tip your hand and risk being scooped. It might make sense to throw your hat into the ring in 2020 and get your name out there, but you do NOT put your platform out there. It'll just have 4 extra years to be dismantled, attacked, made irrelevant, or copied.

      That depends on your ultimate endgame. If the founders of Whole Foods were looking to get rich off people who were willing to buy all-natural, non-GMO snake oil, then yeah, the fact that most supermarkets increased their organic / non-GMO / lower-salt-and-sweetener options is a bad thing. If the founders were trying to help kick-start the improvement of the quality of groceries for everyone, then having a number of such products available everywhere is a positive change. Likewise, if a more popular DNC candidate scoops the platform for 2020, it's bad if Yang actually wants to be president, but good if he wants the UBI idea to gain traction regardless of who does it.

    5. Re:Promising Free Shit by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Uh, wait. The DNC is who screwed Sanders. Promising people free shit worked out great, except that it didn't jibe with the DNC's mission of sucking corporate cock. It worked out so well for Sanders that he actually attracted voters who eventually went on to vote for Trump specifically because they couldn't vote for Sanders.

      I never got that. "We don't like the way the DNC sucks corporate cock, so we'll skip the middle man and do it ourselves". Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    6. Re:Promising Free Shit by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Electile

      ok, as much as that hurts, it's pretty damn funny.

    7. Re:Promising Free Shit by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"FTFW. Bernie is still the most popular elected politician in the country -- a fact even Fox News agrees with [businessinsider.com]."

      Why would that surprise anyone? When around HALF the country is taking/drawing some type of government handout, and HALF the country also pays ZERO income tax, of course people are going to vote for anything that gets them more "free" stuff from those who work hard AND pay lots of taxes. It is a major conflict of interest of the highest order.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/m...

      As Benjamin Franklin reportedly said, âoeWhen the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.â

      Of course it would be insane and unconstitutional, but it almost makes we wish that if you are on/accept disability, welfare, food stamps, rent control, grants, subsidized insurance, medicaid, or any other handout OR pay no income taxes, you get NO VOTE (primary pensioners excluded). Or perhaps some extreme subset. Well, back to reality now.

    8. Re:Promising Free Shit by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Had the playing field not been so heavily weighted for his opponent, another mainstream D would have been running. Sanders was 90% 'Anybody but Hillary'. There aren't that many reds in the USA.

      Remember Rs were registering as Ds to vote for Sanders in the Primaries, same as Ds were doing for Trump. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:Promising Free Shit by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      "Promising free shit to the young, stupid, and lazy worked out so great for Bernie, didn't it?"

      That's a very interesting and excellent example.
      Bernie easily would have beat Trump.

      Bernie did not lose to Hitlery - she played dirty pulling the woman card and IOUs. In the process she shafted the Democratic party causing them to lose to Trump (who is not a Republican but an Opportunist) in the end.

      So without Clinton's dirty politics against her own party you would now be saying just how well it did indeed work for Bernie.

    10. Re:Promising Free Shit by sexconker · · Score: 1

      I agree. I actually voted for Bernie in the primaries, even though I think he's mostly a loon.

    11. Re:Promising Free Shit by sexconker · · Score: 1

      You mean the fact he did far better in the primaries then anyone expected him to do? So yes, it seems it worked out amazingly well. Had the playing field not been so heavily weighted to his opponent he probably would have cinched the nomination.

      It worked out so well they stole the election from him and forced him to cuck himself and officially announce he was supporting Hillary.
      So, it didn't work out. It's a good way to drum up noise with the young/dumb/lazy, but it's a bad way to win. The powers that be do not like that kind of candidate unless they know they can control them once they're installed.

      Bernie was all about this mess loud and clear from the get go and the DNC had time to conspire against him. This guy's getting a 6 year jump on repeating that mistake.

    12. Re:Promising Free Shit by sexconker · · Score: 1

      It's a bit premature to be hobbling together a hollow platform that will only get you Bernied.

      The word you are looking for is cobbling. Hobbling is what Kathy Bates did to James Caan in Misery.

      No, I meant hobbling. It won't have a leg to stand on when put under the slightest of scrutiny. Cobblers generally make sturdy shit.

    13. Re:Promising Free Shit by sexconker · · Score: 1

      "Promising free shit to the young, stupid, and lazy worked out so great for Bernie, didn't it?"

      That's a very interesting and excellent example.
      Bernie easily would have beat Trump.

      Yes, he would have.

      Bernie did not lose to Hitlery - she played dirty pulling the woman card and IOUs. In the process she shafted the Democratic party causing them to lose to Trump (who is not a Republican but an Opportunist) in the end.

      So without Clinton's dirty politics against her own party you would now be saying just how well it did indeed work for Bernie.

      So if it had worked I'd be saying it worked? Well, it didn't work. And that's because Bernie played his hand too early. He was a fringe loon for a long time, but he came out of the gate too fast with his socialism carrot for the rabid youth fan base. He should have known what the establishment does to upstarts like himself - Bernie's certainly old enough to remember how Ron Paul and his grassroots support was treated in the primaries.

      HRC and the DNC conspired against Bernie as soon as they saw his massive support. Hillary had been promised the crown after the DNC screwed her in 2008 (when their polling showed a black man had a better shot than a woman and they groomed Obama for his run). If Bernie had played a slower game and not tipped his hand too early, HRC and the DNC would have had a harder time knee capping him later in the game.

      Trump did it perfectly (intentionally or by luck, who knows). Everyone thought he was a joke, the media gave him tons of attention because making fun of him brought in the ratings, and the DNC kept giving him rope in the hopes that he would hang himself. Then later in the game they realized what they had created, but it was too late to stop him.

      People keep pointing out that Bernie would have beaten Trump. These are probably the same people who argue about the popular vote. You have to win the race you're running. Bernie was up against HRC and her bullshit, yet he made almost no plays to stop her. In the end, HRC, the DNC, and the media fucked him over super hard, then did the same to themselves.

    14. Re:Promising Free Shit by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Congrats. One heck of a comeback there.

    15. Re:Promising Free Shit by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Rand Paul would have wiped the floor with Trump and with Clinton both. If he'd stayed out of the Democratic Primary and ran as the Libertarian. It's so sad to think about how that scenario could have gone.

    16. Re:Promising Free Shit by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Uh, wait. The DNC is who screwed Sanders. Promising people free shit worked out great, except that it didn't jibe with the DNC's mission of sucking corporate cock. It worked out so well for Sanders that he actually attracted voters who eventually went on to vote for Trump specifically because they couldn't vote for Sanders.

      I never got that. "We don't like the way the DNC sucks corporate cock, so we'll skip the middle man and do it ourselves". Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

      You're commenting on politics again? After you were so hilariously off-the-mark with your previous thoughts on Brexit and Trump?

      After all the doom-and-gloom predictions and "Trump is the new Hitler" and "He'll start WW3", you must have some huge cojones to be making observations on a system you previously deomonstrated an unerringly lack of insight into.

      The economy hasn't crashed due to Brexit or Trump. You claimed it would. I see you have learned your lesson, in a way - you aren't making any more claims that can be verified in the future, you're simply insulting the clear majority of people who politely and quietly disagreed with you.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    17. Re:Promising Free Shit by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Bush Jr. wasn't reviled in 2004. He was popular, because people tend to support a president in wartime, and the war hadn't started to go bad yet.

    18. Re:Promising Free Shit by Daralantan · · Score: 1

      These people should first worry about the DNC existing long enough to put forth a candidate in 2020.

      I keep seeing different people, news organizations, etc saying this about the DNC or Republicans. DNC will destroy itself and fall apart... Trump is making the Republicans fall apart and the GOP won't exist anymore... etc. Yes please. Can both of those things go ahead and happen?

    19. Re:Promising Free Shit by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Well, it was what the Russians who were promoting Bernie wanted those voters to do, so continuing to do what their pal Ivan wanted made perfect sense at the time...

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    20. Re:Promising Free Shit by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Perhaps not so eloquent, but about right.

      People talk about difficultly running against an incumbent, or the DNC needing to get their act together, I don't think grasp the larger more contextual picture.

      If I had a looking glass into the future, I'd bet pretty good money that the DNC could probably elect a bag of potatoes as a leader, and win by a landslide.

      There hasn't been a President like Trump before. Yes W Bush was a piece of work and got re-elected, he was in fact why I bet money on Trump to win, however Trump is an entirely different animal. Also if you think the DNC is in disarray, the Republican party is probably twice as bad now, and will be worse by the time Trump is over.

      Anyway whoever is running as the Democratic leader I have to think has a very good shot, the DNC would *REALLY* have to screw it up to lose I have to think.

      Perhaps Trump will change the Constitution do get rid of the foreign birth rule, and Arnold Schwarzenegger can run. That would be my best case, though admittedly by the time the election roles around he'd be getting up there in age.

    21. Re:Promising Free Shit by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I never got that. "We don't like the way the DNC sucks corporate cock, so we'll skip the middle man and do it ourselves". Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me.

      People are desperate for change, for a variety of reasons. Along comes Sanders, says we can change things for the better, and here's how we're going to do it. The DNC says well no, we sure aren't. So people are even more desperate. Along comes Trump. Some say he's a maverick who will stand Washington on its head. Some say he's a Democrat in disguise, based on some bullshit that he clearly didn't believe that he spewed in one interview. Some say he'll cut the pork and drain the swamp. And these people who are desperate for change, and were willing to do the right thing and try to help their neighbors, vote for change. They know beyond the shadow of a doubt that voting for Clinton means more of the same, and they don't want more of the same. They're hoping the horse learns to sing, which is awfully dumb but seriously, what do we expect when we subject people to desperation? If we can talk about urban crime and explain it by pressure and lack of opportunity, then we can certainly understand the Trump voter.

      Part of understanding them, though, is understanding them as the low-information voters that Trump outright said he loves... and that they are. You've got to be pretty damned dumb and/or ignorant to think that Trump will make anything better. He's built a career on cons, and on abusing people. When his businesses go bankrupt, it's The People who wind up paying, and that's essentially his entire business model.

      Low-information voters never like hearing that they are low-information voters, but that's what they are. If they don't like it, they can damned well expose themselves to more information.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  10. which problem? by supernova87a · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I view UBI as just another fad in the recent trend of America's liberal thinking (which, by the way, has been taken over by almost teenage-/child-like levels of logic) that seeks to equalize all outcomes for all people, end suffering, poverty, and eliminate inequity at every stage of life. Damn anyone who thinks otherwise or wonders about how it will work (and be accused of spouting hate speech if you disagree). This is getting ridiculous, and is by the way, impossible. And mind you, I'm generally liberal myself.

    UBI is the most blatant example among many proposals that is very clearly a taking of $ from the highest earners, and giving it to the lowest earners. How else could it work? If you have a closed system where the income distribution is even linear up the scale, the only way UBI works is if the top subsidize the bottom. So it's a different form of progressive tax.

    However, in this case, instead of subsidizing the means to be productive and earn a living, you simply give the people cash and assume they'll work it out for themselves. (For those imagining we would keep the social services, get real -- would we really give them cash *and* the social services too? Isn't UBI envisioned as a way to reduce social services? If social services worked, why do UBI?)

    Anyway, aside from the possibility somehow that corporations are the ones taxed and not individuals -- the long term question is: what kind of society does this produce, if brought to its conclusion? Some kind of Star Trek utopia where everyone's free to pursue higher, loftier goals for humanity? Or, more realistically, some kind of even more unbalanced state where the very few people at the top produce wealth, the middle class is hollowed out, and the lowest earners don't have to work? Has anyone studied the incentives that this produces, and whether it makes our society better?

    I think that is lacking in these idealized proposals.

    1. Re:which problem? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      I view UBI as just another fad in the recent trend of America's liberal thinking

      Remember those good old fads like separating kings from their crown? Sometimes a few inches lower? It was real popular in it's day. But to an extent, limiting the power of monarchies and dictators is STILL in fashion. The political climate in China is concerning to nearly everyone.

      Or how about that crazy fad where we nationalize retirement savings and have welfare programs? Now universally popular, but... again... they're still around.

      If you want to call them fads, whatever floats your goat, but they're facets of our society as much as a runaway military industrial complex, gun culture, the Fed, and racism.

      (which, by the way, has been taken over by almost teenage-/child-like levels of logic)

      Ahhh, like that little cry baby Roosevelt. What a little kiddo, amiright? Him and his silly "pillars of society". What a cad.

      that seeks to equalize all outcomes for all people. [and eliminate inequity at every stage of life.]

      mmmm, no. I see where you're coming from, and it's certainly something we want to safeguard against. But it's more like people see the current and looming waves of automation destroying people's livelyhoods and collapsing the job market for the next generation. At some point it's more fair to recognize that this is effecting EVERYBODY and replace all the patchwork welfare programs with something that doesn't fuck over anyone that doesn't qualify for the myriad of programs designed to try and help.

      Imagine an economy that doesn't need people, only robots and AI. All the wealth goes to the owners. And the question is, who runs this gin-joint? Is this or is this not, a democracy? Who run Bartertown?

      end suffering,

      Yep. Bingo. Or at least help.

      [end] poverty

      Yep. At least working towards that goal. I mean, let's not get TOO optimistic here. Even today, there are programs out there to help the needy and there are people too fucked up to even accept the handout. No matter what we do, there will always be societal drop-outs.

      Damn anyone who thinks otherwise or wonders about how it will work (and be accused of spouting hate speech if you disagree).

      It's not quite that bad when it comes to UBI. Plenty of people understand that's a good question and there are a variety of answers. But I've been seeing this trend to. Simply uttering the words "free speech" will get you labelled as NAZI these days. Sad times. The party really has changed.

      And mind you, I'm generally liberal myself.

      Sure you are grandpa. Are you pining for the political climate of yore? When the hippies were protesting war and demanding people be treated equally and have rights? Perhaps you wish you could have... conserved... that sort of setting? hmm? Get where I'm going with this?

      Anyway, if you cut all other welfare programs including social security and healthcare, and chop down the military to sub-ludicrous proportions, you could probably hand out around $10K to everyone every year. People will instantly knee-jerk themselves into a fit and complain "that's not enough to live on" and yeah... it's not. But that's not the goal of UBI. We still want you to try and go get work. We're NOWHERE near a complete lights-out-economy. You want to live on UBI exclusively, move to Detroit or somewhere and learn to cook potatoes in a thousand different ways. A flat-rate across the board would do wonders with dying rural America.

      There's a big problem with paying people to have kids though.... and frankly, I haven't heard any good solutions for it.

    2. Re:which problem? by Train0987 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Prospered? Are you joking? FDR's policies only worsened the Great Depression. It took a world war to end it.

    3. Re:which problem? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Oh man, sorry for missing this one. I'm off my game apparently.

      the only way UBI works is if the top subsidize the bottom. So it's a different form of progressive tax.

      That is LITERALLY the definition of a progressive tax structure. It would certainly be paid through a progressive tax structure... just like we have now.

    4. Re:which problem? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Federal tax receipts are way up, when you adjust for inflation. For example, back in the 1950s when we still had those 94% top tax rates (and the last time the US ran an actual, real surplus - meaning it did not have to borrow money), the Federal Government took in about 25% of what it does today. We had half the number of people back then - around 150 million. Meaning that, today - adjusted for inflation and population growth - the Federal Government receives nearly twice the taxes than it did back with those high rates.

      The effective tax rate back in the 50s, overall, was about half of what it is today. Deductions were larger and more plentiful, and the income tax was much more progressive (meaning the top rate applied to maybe the top 2%, rather than the top 15%). The statutory rates look really high - but the effective rate, after all deductions and the like, was about half of what it is today just by looking at the total revenue per capita. The bottom line is that the Federal Government today is piling on the debt, even though it has historically high tax income per capita, and spending is at an all-time high. Maybe the problem is the spending, not the income...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    5. Re:which problem? by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Right now, as a low income earner you often face extremely high marginal tax rates, sometimes over 100%. That is, as soon as you start to make money, you lose social services, and the more you make the more benefits you lose. Making that sacrifice, getting a shitty low-paying job even though you are losing money doing so, is simply hard. Even though it generally pays off a few years down the line, many people just get stuck in that situation. Some also pick the "solution" of simply hiding that they are making money, working illegally while still getting benefits.

      That is where UBI helps. It changes the effective marginal tax rate for the poorest to something close to 0%. No matter how little they earn, they still get SOMETHING extra to take home. This is powerful motivation.

      The cost is primarily that the minimum wage is likely to go lower, as it is always worth it for someone to get a job, no matter how badly it pays. There is also no pressure on employers to pay a living wage, since they can just point to the UBI.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    6. Re:which problem? by amorsen · · Score: 1

      FDR took the US off of the gold standard that was causing the depression. US GDP growth rate in 1934 was 10.8%. If that is a worsened depression, then I don't know what we have been in for the last couple of decades.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    7. Re:which problem? by rerogo · · Score: 1

      People are indeed studying this.

      The Alaska Permanent fund also does this on a larger scale, although the amounts of money involved there are probably not enough to make a living except in the Alaskan backcountry, which has limited (but not no) use for money. The Alaska fund is also funded by a severance tax on oil, not a progressive income tax, which seems far less likely to lead to unsustainable fiscal situations or perverse incentives.

    8. Re:which problem? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You clearly have not actually understood anything of the upcoming problems. An UBI is critically necessary, but it alone, even if generous, will not be enough to prevent countries from burning. People not only need bread and games, they also need meaning in their lives and feel useful. And that will be a much larger problem.The UBI will prevent food riots. But what will prevent the riots of the terminally bored?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:which problem? by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

      Anyway, if you cut all other welfare programs including social security and healthcare, and chop down the military to sub-ludicrous proportions, you could probably hand out around $10K to everyone every year.

      This is a bit harder than it seems. Actual Federal revenue in 2017 was 3.3 Trillion, the population of the US is just shy of 325 million people.

      $10,000 per person takes 98% of the dollars than the government took in last year, and represents a dramatic pay cut for current SSI recipients.

      It would be a mistake to trivialize the challenge of implementing UBI. We're going to need to do it, and it's going to be hard.

    10. Re:which problem? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Truth. I did some napkin math and it's more like $7500/year or $620/mo. And that is a HELL of a lot less than some welfare recipients are getting. None of them would be able to afford to live in big cities. In a real city, that's not even rent. In Iowa that's an apartment (by yourself) plus groceries.

      The cost is grievously steep though. No more social security, no more medicare, no more medicaid, no more unemployment, no more disability. It'd be a REAL kick in the pants to a lot of disadvantaged people and those down on their luck. But it'd be more fair.

      Any sort of real attempt at this would have to be phased in over years to decades. As for mechanisms of implementation, I think a standard credit that works like the standard deduction on your tax form would suffice. But some system of monthly payouts for the tax rebate rather than one lump. Because, you know... idiots and money.

    11. Re:which problem? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Corporate income tax collections have kept pace with inflation; individual income taxes have skyrocketed. Your claims are false.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    12. Re:which problem? by Ian+A.+Shill · · Score: 1

      Circuses!

      --
      For hire.
    13. Re:which problem? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      All the time? I don't think so.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    14. Re:which problem? by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Ridiculous strawmen! Get yer ridiculous strawmen right here! Special sale on ridiculous strawmen, get 2 pay for 3! Only today, ridiculous strawmen!

      --
      Eat the rich.
    15. Re:which problem? by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      94% on income above a certain level only. And there were generous deductions available if you did the right thing and made your money work for society, rather than sit on it.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    16. Re:which problem? by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      And it was a damn good idea. Tax heavily if people just want to sit on their money, but offer them generous deductions if they put their money to work for society.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    17. Re:which problem? by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      And conversely, people can point at the UBI and say "fuck you and your low-paying job, pay me a decent wage if you want me to work for you".

      --
      Eat the rich.
    18. Re:which problem? by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      It's contemporary equivalent - social media, Youtube, fake news etc. are doing a good job of entertaining people 24 hours a day. Many millenials don't feel like sleeping at night as they have "too much to do" on these "platforms".

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    19. Re:which problem? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe. We will see. It would be good to get this problem solved, a burning planet is not what I want to retire to...

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    20. Re:which problem? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      I guess you don't understand numbers, kid... Percent of total collections have gone down, because the percent of income tax collections have gone up. But that's the wrong column. In 1955, the Federal Government collected ~$17.9 billion in corporate taxes. In 2012, it collected $242 billion. Inflation would have taken that $17.9 billion and made it $143 billion. So when adjusted for inflation, the Federal Government collects more corporate taxes today than it did in 1955. It's just that it has massively upped income taxes as well. Which is what I stated. But I know, my trolls have to question everything, and in doing so show their ignorance!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    21. Re:which problem? by tbannist · · Score: 1

      I'd gladly work as hard as the average CEO, if the government took 94% of my income over, say, $2 million. It is a graduated system, you know.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    22. Re:which problem? by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Which, I think, is a good thing.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    23. Re:which problem? by tbannist · · Score: 1

      The UBI will prevent food riots. But what will prevent the riots of the terminally bored?

      That's not a bad question, but I think the answer will be more cultural than anything else. People can go for mindless entertainment, they can seek a fulfilling life, or they can choose to work for material gain. There's probably a lot of people who will pick different things, and some people may pick differently as they age and grow in wisdom.

      Riots from the bored will be a sign that your society and your culture are failing to adapt to the new reality.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    24. Re:which problem? by smugfunt · · Score: 1

      FDR's policies only worsened the Great Depression.

      People think this is insightful? It is totally wrong. Go look up the unemployment stats on FRED.
      That bump in 1937 is because FDR was persuaded to dial back his policies. He quickly resumed course and unemployment fell again.

  11. Re:Oh boy by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can we not have a decent level headed somewhat moderate person please?

    If America wanted a centrist, it would have elected Clinton. That's not what America wants. Why can't you see that? It's as plain as day. America would rather have a pussy-grabbing steak salesman than a centrist.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  12. Re:Oh boy by Train0987 · · Score: 1

    Hillary is going to run again and whoa be unto anyone who dares stand in her way.

  13. Re: Oh boy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    If America wanted an establishment whore, it would have elected Clinton. Instead it elected Trump and got one anyway.

  14. Re:Oh boy by Highdude702 · · Score: 2

    You really bumped your head hard if you call Hillary a centerist... Think about that for a few minutes until the birds stop flying around your head..

  15. Re:Won't ever win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Ever hear of Barack Obama?

  16. Re:Oh boy by youngone · · Score: 1

    Whoever wins the Democratic nomination will have to do whatever the corporate interests that run the US tell them to do.
    If they don't they have no chance. Let's not pretend the voters have any say in the matter.

  17. Re:Oh boy by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    I'm a born-and-raised American citizen, was not Republican OR Democrat in November 2016, and I didn't want EITHER ONE OF THEM; what does that make me, you drunk sonofabitch?

  18. Re:Hope he can outbid Hillary by youngone · · Score: 1
    Would Hilary even run? She's 70 according to Wikipedia, which seems really old to be doing that sort of job.
    I note that Mr. Trump is even older at 71. If he does another term he would be 78 by the end*. After having Mr. Reagan spend most his second term incapable because of age related illness, I would think the people of the US would not be keen on having another Alzheimer's sufferer in the highest office in the land.
    Who knows though, you guys did reelect that odd Mr. Bush II.

    * Feel free to check my maths, could be wrong.

  19. Violence only begets violence or please don't hate by mi · · Score: 1

    oiling up the guillotines because we _will_ eat the rich.

    Just in case someone wonders, why you need a high-capacity magazine for your pistol and rifle, show them the above quote.

    The scum are asking for it, and you'll need to double-tap each one of them, just to make sure...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  20. Slaves to the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

  21. Re:AI isn't the problem by Train0987 · · Score: 1

    Until the gov't ends up owning all of the property after confiscating it from those who are eventually unable to pay the ever-increasing land-value tax. What you describe will quickly create a feedback loop that destroys us all.

  22. /. front page? by mi · · Score: 1

    So, when a Libertarian announces his candidacy, they'll also be featured on the /. front page?

    No, no bias here at all...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:/. front page? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I believe Gary whatzisname (Johnson?) had multiple articles about him during the last election season, so odds are pretty good, yes.

    2. Re:/. front page? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      I don't remember a SINGLE slashdot article about Ron Paul. No sirree. (Although that might be due to heavy drinking)

  23. Re:Oh boy by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    You really bumped your head hard if you call Hillary a centerist... Think about that for a few minutes until the birds stop flying around your head..

    The Democratic party is a centrist party, it does not represent the will of the actual left in this country. It proved that when it refused to let Sanders win the nomination for Democratic candidate for president. Clinton's position is precisely aligned with the Democratic party. She literally could not be any more centrist. She has always supported defense contractors, she has entirely given up on single payer health care since taking campaign contributions from Big Pharma, and she can and will do nothing to advance the liberal cause in America. The best you could have hoped for from Clinton was maintenance of the status quo, and the status quo is that more and more households in America are failing so that is clearly not a desirable outcome.

    Clinton was the status quo candidate. Sanders was the candidate who promised to shake things up towards the left; Trump promised to shake things up towards the right. The DNC torpedoed Sanders and the shake things up vote got us Trump. And if the DNC continues to fail to support leftist candidates, we're going to get more of the same. If not Trump, then Pence. Do you really want to see what happens when a religious wingnut like Pence takes office?

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  24. Re:Oh boy by skids · · Score: 1

    Why are all the names being put in clickbait social media posts either extremists or just plain bonkers.

    FTFY. You won't hear about the more boring candidates on social media.

  25. Re:Utter stupidity by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    How much does the US army, navy and airforce waste every year? You think that is sustainable? Are you really that stupid?

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
  26. Re:Hope he can outbid Hillary by Train0987 · · Score: 1

    She is absolutely running again. Her campaign structure is still in place, she's still doing the book tours and meet/greets, etc.

  27. Re:Oh boy by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    I'm a born-and-raised American citizen, was not Republican OR Democrat in November 2016, and I didn't want EITHER ONE OF THEM; what does that make me, you drunk sonofabitch?

    Either someone who wanted to vote for Sanders, or a statistical outlier whose influence on the election was negligible and can be ignored.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  28. Re:Oh boy by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Screw you.

  29. Please learn what socailism is [Re:Too Early] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    Look, lets call a spade a spade here... he is asking for socialism.

    No. Socialism is defined as worker ownership of the means of production (that is, the factories). We usually think of state socialism: state ownership of the means of production (where the state claims to be operating on behalf of the workers.)

    Unless he is advocating worker (or state) ownership fo the means of production, it's not socialism.

    His platform is "democracy is dead." People need to get comfortable saying that, because that's what it is... if you are for UBI, you are a socialist. ;)

    Democracy is a political system and socialism is an economic system. But, no. If you are for the state ownership of the means of production you are a socialist. If you are for UBI, you are for something that is not socialism (unless it also includes state ownership of the means of production.)

    I have gotten tired of people calling pretty much everything under the sun that isn't laissez faire capitalism "socialism." The word has a defined meaning. Use it.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:Please learn what socailism is [Re:Too Early] by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You define Marxism. There are in fact, other schools of socialism. Granting 99% of socialists are fucking Marxists of one sort or another.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  30. Our Representative Democracy is the issue.. by dark.nebulae · · Score: 1

    Because we elect representatives and the representatives are bought and paid for by corporations and the rich, things will never be fair. We will never see a UBI because that will never be allowed to come to a vote.

    Instead of being a representative democracy, we should change over to a direct democracy. Let the people individually vote on dreamers, gun control, environmental issues, drug laws, ... You'll quickly find that things would change, some for the worst, but more for the best. The rich would have to spend their money convincing us to go their way instead of our cheap house and senate representatives.

    1. Re:Our Representative Democracy is the issue.. by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      How can you possibly hold that level of pessimism in the first paragraph simultaneously with the optimism of the second?

      That sort of change would take a constitutional amendment of EPIC proportions fundamentally changing our government. Or a rebellion. Are you rebel scum?

    2. Re:Our Representative Democracy is the issue.. by azadrozny · · Score: 1

      These are not simple issues you are talking about. It is easy to say we'll just have a public vote on gun control. Getting people to read and understand the details is an entirely other matter. How would individuals offer alternatives? What happens when the bill needs to repeal parts of other legislation. I am not saying that our current representatives do this well, but opening this process up to the masses will create far more problems than it creates.

  31. Irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wouldn't it be ironic that all those people Slashdotters usually look down on...people who work with their hands, the earth, and livestock, are suddenly the only ones that can feed and raise a family?

    Meanwhile, erstwhile Slashdot posters are sit in front of their dark screens wishing they could post some snark about how they've been screwed by automation, the Rich, or both.

    1. Re:Irony by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      I don't know why someone would mod this as funny. How many people here actually knows what goes into running a modern farm? It is not the typical redneck on a tractor stereotype that so many think it is. A modern farm is a complex system as anything else in the modern world. You don't just toss a handful of seeds out and hope something grows.

      Most farmers that I know, and I know several, have advanced degrees, some of them more than one. That farmer out here, and those that work with their hands and earth, are probably better educated that a lot of people on this board.

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
  32. Re:Oh boy by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    If not Trump, then Pence. Do you really want to see what happens when a religious wingnut like Pence takes office?

    Absolutely!!!

    Much better alternative to a leftist that wants larger government that is even more intrusive into our private lives, and would like to curtail some amendments more than others.

    In a freakin' heartbeat brother.

    I'd vote for a small soapdish with no personality, than a leftist like Sanders, or worse.

    If you could go back to JFK type democrat...perhaps that might be more palatable, but at this point the Dems seem to be WAAAAAY further to the left than one of their better leaders.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  33. Re:Oh boy by Merk42 · · Score: 1

    ...Can we not have a decent level headed somewhat moderate person please? Why are all the names being put forwards either extremists or just plain bonkers.

    It worked for the GOP.

  34. Re:Oh boy by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

    Indiana was not going to re-elect Pence as governor. Indi-frekin-ana. If they don't want him, no one does.

  35. Death to Commies by mi · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The scumbag's explicit reference to guillotine shows, the French terror is what he wants for this country. He may be too stupid to do very much to advance this goal, but he is still a scumbag — just the kind to stand out there masked and shouting "Communism will win".

    Adherents of the vilest and deadliest school of thought known to humanity, responsible for millions of deaths and economic devastation of entire countries, these people somehow remain acceptable for the polite society — and even find sympathetic moderators to upvote their murderous rhetoric. All the while, for example, the stupid schmucks of the (relatively) harmless KKK are hunted and persecuted as if they were Satan incarnates.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  36. make your choice by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You can have mass immigration or you can have nice things. Notice that the people who are pushing mass immigration, such as Koch bros, already have nice things and benefit more from cheaper labor than better public schools and such. UBI is another example of this. If the US had less immigration, both legal and illegal, as well as no anchor babies then UBI would be much more attainable. Also wages would be better, traffic would be less, and housing would be more affordable. UBI is interesting but unless immigration is *greatly* reduced don't expect it regardless of how much AI and robotics reduce jobs.

    1. Re:make your choice by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Um... not only are immigrants a relatively small part of the population, but they are overwhelmingly working age, which means they contribute in taxes more than they take away in services. They make UBI more attainable, not less.

    2. Re:make your choice by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

      Um... not only are immigrants a relatively small part of the population, but they are overwhelmingly working age, which means they contribute in taxes more than they take away in services. They make UBI more attainable, not less.

      First off you use the phrase immigrants, which ignores the vast distinction between legal and illegal immigration. This is very disingenuous. It is well known that legal immigrants are more likely to be skilled labor while illegal immigrants are almost always unskilled labor. Skilled labor can be a win for the US while unskilled labor is always a loss. The loss on illegal immigration is to the tune of $116 billion annually. Every year. The crime rate is higher than average for illegal immigrants, especially for drunk driving deaths. For those who think that all illegal immigrants just want a better life, tell that to these US citizens who were killed by illegals: http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial...

  37. Re:Violence only begets violence or please don't h by losfromla · · Score: 1

    You have nothing worth clawing back moron. The difference between you and a homeless person is less than a minor round-off error for the wealthy. That is also the value they attach to your life.

    You are the scum and your high-capacity magazine may help you take your family out of their misery if you don't decide to go hunting the wealthy along with the rest of us.

    --
    Only I can judge you.
  38. Re:Violence only begets violence or please don't h by mi · · Score: 1

    You have nothing worth clawing back moron.

    Thank you for lifting the suspicion off me having a conflict of interest in the matter.

    take your family out of their misery go hunting the wealthy along with the rest of us

    99% of Communists give the rest a bad name... Not only do they seek to kill the rich, the sympathizers are also subject to death — along with their families.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  39. Re:Oh boy by amorsen · · Score: 1

    Hillary is probably the most centrist presidential candidate from the main parties that the USA ever had.

    She would have been a foreign policy hawk, like most of the Republican party wants, and her economic policy would certainly have been more right-wing than Obama (and he is not exactly screaming for the socialist stuff like protection of steel workers). Her staff appointments would reflect orthodox business leader thinking.

    The only thing slightly left wing about her is her support for Obamacare. She would likely have tried to steer that in a more insurance-company-friendly direction though.

    Really, the only thing standing between her and a Republican nomination is a deal with the NRA and the fact that she has ovaries.

    --
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  40. Re:Oh boy by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    You are a Trump enabler. Deep in your heart you want Trump to be the POTUS but you dont want your fingerprints on it.

    --
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  41. Re:Oh boy by losfromla · · Score: 2

    You forgot to add all-caps. How are people going to know you are right if you don't put them?

    --
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  42. Re:Oh boy by losfromla · · Score: 1

    It's "woe", moran!

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  43. Re:Oh boy by losfromla · · Score: 1

    I agree! I'm with Sanders!

    --
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  44. Re:"Single Payer" or "Unaccountable System"? by losfromla · · Score: 1

    Standard hospital systems regularly kill people. Our modern medical system is a minefield. Is the VA demonstrably worse than average?

    --
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  45. Re:Oh boy by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Go eat your soy, wingnut.

  46. Re: Oh boy by mapkinase · · Score: 1

    That's not why he was elected. He was elected despite of that.

    Your stupid "centrist" DNC managed to dramatically piss off one of the solid bases - white working class males in three key wiggle states. They decided to cater instead to various economically insignificant, but politically growing minorities in already Democrat states.

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  47. Re:Utter stupidity by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    There are 323 million people in the US, and about 60% of them are between 18 and 65. That is around 194 million people. Yang's idea is to give each of them $1,000 per month. That is a $194 billion monthly expense. For 12 months, that would be $2.3 trillion. The current US Federal budget is $4.15 trillion and has a budget deficit of $503 billion. This would not only increase the Federal budget by more than 50%, it would more than quintuple the budget deficit. And this is a good idea - how?

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  48. Re:Hope he can outbid Hillary by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    She only knows how to do one thing, but somebody needs to explain the situation to her. She put Trump in office...that's how bad at politics she is.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  49. Re:Utter stupidity by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    According to this report, about $125 billion over 5 years - so about $25 billion a year. That would fund Yang's approach for about 4 days. How do we fund the other 361 days?

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  50. Re:Oh boy by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

    The best you could have hoped for from Clinton was maintenance of the status quo, and the status quo is that more and more households in America are failing so that is clearly not a desirable outcome.

    And that, in a nutshell, is the biggest reason she lost: she offered nothing new, just four more years of President Obama's failed policies, and enough voters in enough states wanted change, so that's what she got. (The other reason, of course, is that she spent most of the campaign in states that she couldn't lose if she tried instead of fighting for those that she could have won if she'd bothered to campaign there.)

    --
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  51. Immigration stance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Seems to me that most people calling for UBI are arguing that AI will eliminate jobs, and thus, we need UBI to sustain those who lose them, are also open-borders types that would flood millions more into the country in the face of those shrinking job prospects. Hard to reconcile those positions unless you are just not thinking critically. (Not that I am suggesting that if we lock down the borders, we could then institute UBI--socialism has gone so well for Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea and the straight-up Robin Hood wealth transfer that is UBI is a remarketing of socialism).

  52. You won't eat the rich by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    they have machine guns now. And supply lines so that when your semi-autos run out of bullets theirs don't. Best case scenario you get a military junta and a change of masters.

    Violence isn't going to work anymore. If you want freedom you have to take care of your working class _before_ they turn to a militant strong man. So far we are not doing a good job of that. Hopefully next election we turn things around and at least run somebody like this Andrew fellow who appears to belong to the populist left.

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    1. Re:You won't eat the rich by tbannist · · Score: 1

      [T]hey have machine guns now. And supply lines so that when your semi-autos run out of bullets theirs don't. Best case scenario you get a military junta and a change of masters.

      Of course, the downside of machine guns and supply lines is that the people running the machine guns and the supply lines are the same people that the rich need to be protecting themselves from. Of course, if they can automate the ammunition factories, supply lines and machine gun turrets, then they'll only have to worry about hackers...

      --
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  53. Being Rich is not about having a lot of money by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    It's about having the power of life or death by controlling access to food, shelter and medical care. It's about power, not things.

    Yes, I know that's counter-intuitive. Lots of things are. It's difficult to think like a truly Rich person (e.g. a 1% or a .1%) when you're part of the working class.

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  54. You don't need to limit births by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    if anything you need to encourage them. Once people hit a certain amount of wealth they're content to have 1-2 children. Of course, that only happens if you hit that wealth limit (and if you don't have the Elephant in the room, religion, forcing people to spit out kids. Can't tell you how many Catholics I know with their 3rd, 4th, 5th child in their 40s...)

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  55. It worked out well for Trump too by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    he promised to keep jobs here, provide medical care for all and huge tax cuts that would somehow be paid for by magic fairy dust. Meanwhile Hilary didn't promise jack (her campaign ads were almost completely devoid of policy) and you can see how that worked out.

    People _want_ the government to step in and help them. What they do _not_ want is for the gov't to step in and help anyone else. It doesn't work like that. Either nobody gets left behind or everybody does.

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  56. You're giving the founders too much credit by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    our Senate and Electoral colleges were purpose built to protect the interests of a few wealthy landowners. The political parties are just natural outgrowths of that system. What's needed is a parliamentary system that gives everybody who gets x% of the vote some power. That and compulsory voting. If voting was mandatory people couldn't get away with voter suppression.

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  57. Re:Utter stupidity by magarity · · Score: 1

    How much does the US army, navy and airforce waste every year? You think that is sustainable? Are you really that stupid?

    US DoD annual budget: just under 600$ Billion
    US DHHS annual budget: just over 1,200$ Billion
    Assuming government agencies are equally inefficient and wasteful, which one should you be kvetching about?

  58. Re:Your national debt just surpassed 21 beeelion $ by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Unless that amounts to suicide. Then you have to be willing to kill yourself and admit you have failed at existing. That takes more stones than any US president will ever have. What will actually happen is that the US will default at some time. The rest of the world will recover from that after a decade or two, but the US will not.

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  59. Re:Utter stupidity by gweihir · · Score: 1

    So-called Universal Basic Income WILL NOT WORK for 300,000,000 people, plain and simple, why can't you all see that!?

    Because you are a clueless moron that cannot do numbers?

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  60. Re:UBFI ( Score: +1, Communist) by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Have you nor heard? Facebook is in decline...

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  61. End the Draft by ghoul · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At one time every able bodied man was supposed to turn out for the defense of the village whenever the feudal lord ordered it. We then evolved into professional volunteer armies and today the concept of the draft has gone away.

    Similarly in the future people will work if they want to not because they have been drafted to. Today everyone has to work or starve - there is no real choice.

    With an UBI, work becomes a choice and the workers will be much more professional as they would have CHOSEN to work rather than forced to.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:End the Draft by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      A lot of recruitment into our professional volunteer armies is driven by the fact that people have to work, and working for the army seems like the best option to them. People mostly don't join the army because joining the army sounds like fun, they join the army because if they don't do something they'll starve and joining the army is something so they do that.

      --
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  62. They said the same thing about Bernie by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    and look what it got us.

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  63. Cura Annonae by HiloJoe · · Score: 2

    The grain dole in Roman times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Just saying it wouldn't be the first time government supplied free sustenance. With mixed results. And then Regan gave us the cheese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  64. Re:Oh boy by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    You do realize you are full of shit, right? Because Trump is in the process of mucking up things so badly at the Federal level that anybody who follows him will have greatly lessened power. As it should be, actually.

    Your 'jesus-hate' shit is sorta loud, You might want to tone it down, because people don't want to listen to that shit.

  65. Re:Oh boy by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    'moran' is a dog whistle.

    Go back to your fucking Democratic Underground and quit ruining Slashdot.

  66. The California solution. Or problem. by argee · · Score: 4, Funny

    OK, talking to a true-blue Californian Democrat:

    The Californian says, "We have it figured out. We get UBI, we do not have to work anymore!"

    And I ask, "But who is going to do all the needed work?"

    "Ah, simple," says he. "The illegal immigrants!"

    "But they don't pay taxes!"

    Then, with a quick wink he says "We are still working on that minor problem!"

  67. Most probably not by aepervius · · Score: 1

    You are probably making the fallacy of comparing to somebody outside the country and comparing to absolute amount of money. Which is non sense, and mostly used as an excuse by some to not do anything "hey you are richer than some guy in (insert 3rd world country) so don't complain". What you have to compare to is with purchasing power parity. A low income American may earn more money in absolute than a middle class Bengladeshi but this means jack shit if the PPP is so that the bengladeshi can afford far more stuff - local price being much lower for him. The "they earn only 10$ a day" is meaningless if you do not know how it cost to have a minimum "basket" (a roof, heating in winter where required, minimum food and education). Sure I may earn 4 time what that 10$ a day guy earn,but if my PPP is 8 times higher than his, then I am effectively poorer. So no that "there is always someone poorer than you" is mostly bullshit hot air.

    --
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    visit randi.org
    1. Re: Most probably not by kenh · · Score: 1

      American 'poor' typically have subsidies for a roof over their head, drinkable water, cheap reliable electricity, cable/satellite TV, smartphones, internet access, free healthcare, and food assistance.

      'Poor' is a lot wealthier than you may think. American 'Poor' typically receive more in gov't benefits than entry-level jobs pay, removing the incentive to get off the gov't teat.

      --
      Ken
    2. Re: Most probably not by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Solution: Raise the goddamn minimum wage, so work pays a living wage.

      "Oh no, the so-called poor are not poor at all, 99% of them even have fridges!"

      People who say the poor aren't actually poor, never had to pinch every penny themselves. They never had to choose between not having enough money for bus fare or going to bed hungry.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  68. Re: Violence only begets violence or please don't by kenh · · Score: 1

    Yeah, cool, take all the wealth from the 'wealthy' - sounds great, who'll pay the UBI bill in year two after you confiscate everyone's wealth the first year?

    $1,000/month, times 320 million recipients each month, you'll burn through all 'wealthy people's' money in no time.

    320 million times $1,000/month is $320 Billion/month, or just about $4 Trillion a year. It takes a thousand billionaires to make one trillion, how many billionaires are there in America? Do we really have 4K billionaires in America?

    No.

    --
    Ken
  69. Re:Utter stupidity by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    Most of those entitlements are Social Security and Medicare (about $1 trillion); since Yang's plan is for those under 65, those entitlements would still exist.

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  70. Re:Utter stupidity by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    So let me get this straight: we take Government money, give it to people, then take a big chunk of it back in the form or taxes? Let me give you $100, then have you give me back $40. I'm still out $60, and a lot of extra bookkeeping in the form of, well, Form 1040.

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  71. Re: Violence only begets violence or please don't by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

    Let me guess, you also graduated top of your class at Navy SEALS?

    --
    Eat the rich.
  72. Re:Violence only begets violence or please don't h by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

    You'll run out of bullets real fast and odds are you're absolutely useless in a heated situation, just like all of your big-wallet peers, so while you may hit one person, the next 20 will tear you apart, literally.

    Don't underestimate the brutal efficiency of a raging mob.

    --
    Eat the rich.
  73. Re: Violence only begets violence or please don't by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

    Industry will pay. You know those taxes they keep dodging right now.

    Pay your taxes or GTFO.

    --
    Eat the rich.
  74. Re:Oh boy by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

    A-MEN Brother!

  75. Re:Oh boy by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Well, you're another idiot. Trump is provably worse than Clinton and you helped make America grate.

    --
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  76. Trojan Horse Policy by ShamblerBishop · · Score: 1

    The UBI:
    1: Destroys the entire welfare system - replacing it with the UBI.
    2: Does not replace the requirement to work, because it will be set at a low level.
    3: Is a business subsidy in disguise, as businesses will slash washes to soak up the UBI, over time (look at the trend of not sharing profit from increased productivity).
    4: Will be destroyed as soon as a big enough financial crisis hits - because it will become 'unaffordable' at that point.

    So guys, when the party ends you're lining up for slashing of wages, complete destruction of your welfare system, and a massive subsidy to businesses in the meantime - with no fucking plan of what to do when the policy comes crashing down...

    It's the worst own-goal imaginable. Yet people don't fucking see this.

  77. Not mutually exclusive [Re:Too Early] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    A 10-15% VAT tax, like most of the rest of the world has, would pay for UBI and universal healthcare.

    Before you could even come close do enacting some type of VAT like that, you'd have to:

    1. Entirely remove, and BAN from existence by law, the current income tax we have now.

    No. "VAT" is a fancy term for sales tax. (The "value added" just means that you don't double-tax something that goes through a middle broker. If I buy steel and turn it into, say, kitchen knives, the tax is only on the value added, since the steel itself was already taxed.)

    Sales tax and income tax are not mutually exclusive. You can have both.

    2. You'd have to also get rid of all state and local taxes...

    Sales tax and state tax are not mutually exclusive. You can have both.

    and the Feds can't dictate that type of policy directly to the states, so, guessing that wouldn't fly.
    To get something like that through, you'd have to make it the ONLY tax there is...

    Again: no. There are many many many examples of places you have multiple taxes. It happens all the time. One tax does not mean you can't have another

    --
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  78. Re:Utter stupidity by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    Oh, I understand it. What is your claimed multiplier effect for that $100? Why not just give everyone $10,000 per month and really get the economy roaring?

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  79. Re:Oh boy by tbannist · · Score: 1

    Can we not have a decent level headed somewhat moderate person please?

    No, you can't. They don't win nominations or elections in today's political climate. At best you might be able to win with a charismatic, but level headed moderate. Dull people just don't win presidential elections, though Hillary and Gore both came really, really close.

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  80. Re:Violence only begets violence or please don't h by losfromla · · Score: 1

    I'm not a communist, I'm a Socialist Democrat, get it right twink!

    --
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  81. Re:Oh boy by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

    ...at the Federal level that anybody who follows him will have greatly lessened power.

    I actually think that is a GOOD thing!!

    --
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  82. Re:Oh boy by losfromla · · Score: 1

    I eat grass-fed beef, drink raw milk, and pastured chicken.
    I wouldn't eat soy even if you and your boyfriend prepared it fantastically for me.

    --
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  83. Re:Oh boy by losfromla · · Score: 1

    your mom is a dog whistle

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  84. Re:Oh boy by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    stop sniffing around in the bushes, fido.

  85. I will vote for Yang by NewYork · · Score: 1

    1% cannot own 80% wealth unless they're running Pyramid schemes;
     

  86. Re: Oh boy by losfromla · · Score: 1

    Your mom likes when I sniff around her bush.

    --
    Only I can judge you.
  87. Let's try again! by rcharbon · · Score: 1

    Because a rich dude with simple solutions is working so well for us now!

  88. I like how the solution to automation by Jarwulf · · Score: 1

    is to try to make people dependent on the government forever. Automation is an inherently freeing technology. Intervention, which doesn't have to be from the government btw should be geared toward getting people to use technology to become self sufficient as possible. There can be a safety net as there always has been of course. But not this creeping daycare the elite seem to want.