Demand For Batteries Is Shrinking, Yet Prices Keep On Going and Going ... Up (wsj.com)

schwit1 shares a report: Batteries on average cost 8.2% more than a year ago, while prices in the overall household-care segment rose only 1.8%, according to Nielsen. At a time when prices are stagnating on everything from toilet paper to diapers, such pricing power for a product that is increasingly obsolete has confounded shoppers [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled]. "As far as the prices go, you don't have a choice," said Samuel Hurly, a contractor from Mount Vernon, N.Y., as he scanned a Home Depot display of AAA batteries to power flashlights he uses on the job. Batteries ordered online take too long to arrive, Mr. Hurly said, and he finds cheaper, private-label options lose power too quickly.

Battery prices were more likely to fluctuate a few years ago, when Duracell was owned by consumer-products giant Procter & Gamble Co. and Energizer was part of Edgewell Personal Care Co. Those companies were more focused on their bigger, more profitable razor businesses -- Edgewell with Schick and P&G with Gillette. They would invest less in batteries, or slash prices to drive up volume, to compensate for weak sales in other units, said SunTrust analyst Bill Chappell. Energizer Holdings Inc. spun off from Edgewell in 2015, and Duracell broke apart from P&G a year later when it was acquired by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. schwit1 asks, "Both businesses have become more profit-focused since separating from their previous owners. Is the Energizer/Duracell duopoly ripe for disruption?"

Comments

Ripe for disruption

[mysidia]

And not environmentally friendly to have disposable batteries with plastics and electrolyte compounds tossed into landfills.

Time to ban disposable batteries and introduce LiON chemistry replacement cartridges for these old AA and AAA cells.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[jellomizer]

Please ask a Galaxy Note 7 user about LiON batteries.

The main Risk with swapping batteries, is the fact older devices may not be designed for them to run on. Not expecting them to heat up as much, putting them in a confined location where they cannot expand. And just different power usage and lasting power change, could effect the usefulness of products.

Yes new devices should reconsider the standard batteries. But older devices there wern't much choices other then NiMH which have less of a life.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

So all we have to do is redesign and replace all of the stuff that takes AA and AAA batteries first. You did know that alkaline batteries output at 1.5 volts and LiON at 3.6 volts, right? Simply replacing battery chemistry would likely fry existing electronics designed for the 1.5 volt batteries. Or are you recommending putting in electronics to drop the 3.6 volt output of LiON to 1.5 volts? Fitting all that in a AAA form factor, not going to say it's impossible, but it'll be a tight squeeze.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[MrL0G1C]

This, I'm reading the summary and wondering what the hell century these people are in. And for longer life usages like remote controls etc there are slow drain rechargables, the batteries come pre-charged and only lose a fraction of their charge over a year when not used (JCB is one maker).

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Scarred Intellect]

Please ask a Galaxy Note 7 user about LiON batteries.

I had one. It was fine.

An intern here still has one. It's still fine. Quit over-sensationalizing.

The main Risk with swapping batteries, is the fact older devices may not be designed for them to run on. Not expecting them to heat up as much, putting them in a confined location where they cannot expand. And just different power usage and lasting power change, could effect the usefulness of products.

Also LiON tend to simply stop working, whereas older alkaline batteries fade and can be still useable until fully dead. A friend running his church's sound system recently shared an experience with me. The swapped the cordless microphone batteries for LiON...the new batteries work great until they're low on charge, and they suddenly die without warning. Not a problem in itself, but another thing to keep in mind.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Luckyo]

No one wants Lithium-ion with its fire hazard, high cost and 3,7V voltage. NiMH is almost as good, has proper voltage for current applications and is pervasive.

Re: Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Just use inherently safer LiFePo4 instead of the cobalt designs. Or the tried and proven NiMH. But the fact is, a flashlight will be brighter on lithium but last longest on sl alone. And if you try to use a lithium 14500 and a dummy connector in something that takes 2 AA, the lithium battery is depleted in a quarter of the time.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[PPH]

Please ask a Galaxy Note 7 user about LiON batteries.

Please ask Boeing.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[JackieBrown]

That's why we need to ban disposable batteries so that we can force all the old stuff to break. We also need a law that forces all manufactors to replace anything for free that breaks due to the ban and pay each person for the inconvenience of being out whatever broke. And we also need a law stating these companies should also buy everyone a pony.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not oversensationalizing, it is risk vs reward. They aren't allowed on commercial airlines, too risky. LiON batteries have been forbidden on US submarines for YEARS, well before the Galaxy S series premiered.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[mysidia]

LiON batteries are safe and one of the most commonly used batteries. There's an initial cost, but they're not THAT expensive, and they are rechargeable and re-usable for a long period of time.

The 3.7 Volts can easily be stepped down or up to the voltage needed for an application by incorporating multiple cells and/or a Buck Converter into the package.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Alkaline batteries bad for the environment? What, are you from the People's Republik of Kalifornia?

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

> Fitting all that in a AAA form factor, not going to say it's impossible, but it'll be a tight squeeze.

Already being done.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[DontBeAMoran]

And we also need a law stating these companies should also buy everyone a pony.

As long as we can pick both Fluttershy and Rarity, I'm fine with it.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[GameboyRMH]

If only NiMH had the proper voltage - it has a lower voltage - 1.2v vs. 1.5v, so the more cells the device takes, the greater the undervoltage. It does work decently for low-power devices that only take 1 or 2 batteries such as clocks and TV remotes, but let's not kid ourselves.

I've been trying out a commercial off-the-shelf alkaline battery recharger, although by now I use them in so few things that I've hardly been able to see how effective the recharged batteries are compared to new ones. It does work, but you can only safely recharge the batteries a few times before they're likely to leak.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Tough Love]

Li-ion is not going to "catch fire" in this segment any time soon. Rather, NiMH is the standard because of cost, charging characteristics, and safety. That said, have you tried walking the walk yourself? I do, and I will say, you need to be organized about it. You will end up with piles of batteries sitting around, you need some system for keeping track of which are charged and which are discharged. You need to keep track of charge cycles per battery because they all die eventually. For devices that take multiple batteries (most of them) you want to use batteries of similar age. You need to recharge discharged NiMH cells promptly so they don't sit around in discharged state and lose life faster. Life with disposables is so much simpler, if somewhat more expensive and considerably more damaging to the environment.

Eventually, your rechargeables will die and you will just have to suck it up and toss them out. Of course you will recycle, not sneak them into the general landfill, right? Because you cared enough to make this lifestyle change in the first place.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Luckyo]

I don't think you quite understand the issue. This is not about some proprietary interface where lithium ion with its particularities can be fit in. This an existing AAA and AA standard, which requires very tight tolerances on size, coupled with low cost, coupled with requirements to work in both high throughput and long durability modes.

AA sized lithium batteries exist. They're 3,7V and they suffer from same self-discharge problem that old rechargeable Ni-Cd and NiMH had. They do not work in any of the standard AA hardware. They suffer from several other similar problems that current AA and AAA chemistries have to much lesser degree if at all. At the same time, around 2010s, NiMH chemistry was reworked to the point where it became better than alkaline batteries in terms of energy capacity, and they could hold charge for years, which is why they're sold pre-charged.

Lithium ion is simply not a good chemistry for AA and AAA world. You pick a proper tool for the job. The problem seems to be that many people didn't get the message on shift in NiMH world, and still think that if they want batteries that will work for more than a couple of weeks after being left alone in the tool, they have to get alkline. Nowadays, you should be using NiMH for this purpose.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Strider-]

If only NiMH had the proper voltage - it has a lower voltage - 1.2v vs. 1.5v, so the more cells the device takes, the greater the undervoltage. It does work decently for low-power devices that only take 1 or 2 batteries such as clocks and TV remotes, but let's not kid ourselves.

It all depends on the device being powered. NiMH have significantly lower internal resistance than typical Alkalines, so the device can source significantly more current from it. A good example of this is the Canon external flashes. They're setup to use 4 AA batteries. If you run them with NiMH, they can draw significantly more current off the batteries while recharging the tank circuit. This means that it cycles much more quickly than if you had used the (higher voltage) Alkaline AAs.

For anything that is powered by a switchmode converter, if designed correctly, the slightly lower voltage isn't that big of a deal.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Wycliffe]

That's why we need to ban disposable batteries so that we can force all the old stuff to break. We also need a law that forces all manufactors to replace anything for free that breaks due to the ban and pay each person for the inconvenience of being out whatever broke. And we also need a law stating these companies should also buy everyone a pony.

I realize you are joking but banning stuff like incandescent light bulbs and disposable light bulbs can cause major problems especially for fringe uses that may not be able to switch. On the other hand, I would have no problem supporting taxing environmentally unfriendly stuff like this especially if we offset it by lowering taxes elsewhere. You tend to get less of stuff you tax so taxing stuff like energy usage or enviromentally unfriendly stuff makes more sense than taxing sales/income.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[war4peace]

It all depends on the device being powered.

My phone, my tablet, my vape, my kids' RC cars, these are the devices I use most often.
Four flashlights which need batteries to hold charge at maximum for years (they're in emergency packs, hopefully never to be used).
A couple cameras, one is an older bridge camera taking 4x AAs and the other is a small pocket camera with 2x AA batteries.
My wife's ancient MP3 player she's fond of, works with 1x AAA battery.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Luckyo]

Problem being that that's not how AA standard works. Alkaline battery goes from 1,5V at full charge to about 0,8 as it is close to being empty. As a result, AA devices are commonly configured to accept any voltage in that range.

Modern NiMH stays at very stable 1,2V throughout the charge, making them actually better than alkaline in most usage scenarios. The only problem is that they tend to trip "at below 1,2V, alkaline is probably at about 1/3 charge left, so change the battery please". I have this issue with xbox 360 wireless controller, where my second gen, 5 year old eneloops will trip that after about 10 hours of usage, and then keep powering the controller for about 40 more hours before they need to be swapped.

Typical alkalines trip it after about 20 hours, and shut down about 10 hours after that.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Lanthanide]

Four flashlights which need batteries to hold charge at maximum for years (they're in emergency packs, hopefully never to be used).

You should be checking and replenishing your emergency kits every 12 months. Take whatever food you have and put it into normal circulation, and replace with new food. Replace batteries. Replace water. Check medical supplies haven't passed their expiration dates (if applicable).

Re:Ripe for disruption

[dtmos]

Keep in mind that AA, AAA, etc. refers only to the mechanical specification of the battery, and says exactly nothing about its electrical specifications. One can put any chemistry one likes in a AA package and call it a AA battery.

One of the more difficult things about designing portable, battery-powered devices is the difficulty of designing the electronics to provide a good user experience regardless of what battery chemistry the user puts in -- Alkaline, C-Zn, Ni-Cd, Ni-MH, etc. -- each of which has different voltage discharge curves, internal series resistance behavior, temperature performance, shelf life, etc. Being able to control battery performance and, therefore, user experience, is one of the main reasons designers make batteries non-replaceable.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Fly Swatter]

Haha, good luck getting everyone to agree to a standard. Plus there a ton of non-hardwired smoke alarms and such out there.

Re: Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitch please! Go back to smuggling Ordelâ(TM)s money and leave the battery discussion to the adults.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[AmiMoJo]

The lower voltage isn't much of an issue these days, so it wouldn't be much of an issue to mandate 1.2v compatibility for new products.

Many devices can run on 1.2v now, and boost controller ICs are incredibly cheap. In fact 1.8v is the new de-facto standard for very low voltage devices now, which works fine with a couple of NiMH cells.

Re: Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

They removed the mercury from alkaline batteries. Now it's ok to just flip them in the trash.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[LordKronos]

It is not oversensationalizing, it is risk vs reward. They aren't allowed on commercial airlines, too risky. LiON batteries have been forbidden on US submarines for YEARS, well before the Galaxy S series premiered.

Not allowed on commercial airlines? Since when? That's news to me. It also appears to be news to the FAA, so you might want to give them a heads up: https://www.faa.gov/about/init...

Re:Ripe for disruption

[bobby]

I dislike AAA batteries (poor $ / WH) so a few years ago I bought some NiMH rechargables and they're awesome. They don't work in a few devices due to stupid device design requiring 1.5V, so occasionally I have to buy AAA alkalines.

I've never tried them, and I don't have any connection to the company, but this looks like a great product: https://www.batteroo.com/technology

I think they market these to allow using NiMH in fussy devices, as well as extracting wasted energy.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[AlanBDee]

This has been my experience as well except I didn't really understand, or think, why. What I did was buy a higher end charger that would condition the batteries as well as charge them. I've gotten a much better life out of them since and only tend to use Alkaline batteries in things like smoke detectors, remotes, or other items that you never change the battery in.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Ken_g6]

LFP chemistry should prevent most of the risks of Li-Ion. No expansion or overheating, though some kind of cutoff might be necessary at low voltage.

The main problem with Lithium is its voltage is different. But LFP is close enough to two alkaline batteries that I wonder if you could have pairs of LFP cells, either in-line for flashlights, or next to each other with a ribbon cable between them for other devices? The trick, of course, being that the two cells would be in parallel internally and not use the external circuitry to work in series. I imagine the main problem would be you'd need a big warning label saying, "Do not mix with other battery types!" Which also means you couldn't use it in a device requiring an odd number of batteries.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[jezwel]

I would have no problem supporting taxing environmentally unfriendly stuff like this especially if we offset it by lowering taxes elsewhere.

Surely it would make sense to use these additional funds to clean up environmental problem areas? Developing and building recycling centres for old batteries perhaps? As you mention, as the undesirable products die out this type of infrastructure can eventually be discontinued or re-tasked.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Lithium ion battery is a catch-all term for any battery that contains a bit of lithium in it (so maybe even the Starship Enterprise has one). The battery used to power your iPhone S is different from the battery used to power the Tesla.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Waccoon]

I've encountered a multitude of devices that won't even power on when given rechargeable batteries, as they expect a voltage over 1.2V to "reset" the battery meter.

A particularly annoying example was my first music player, as I explicitly bought a device powered by an AAA battery since I wanted it to last for a long time and didn't want to bother with a device with a built-in battery. Turns out, only alkaline AAA batteries would work. A freshly charged NiMH battery always threw a low battery warning and the device wouldn't even turn on. I also encountered many [early] digital cameras that had the same problem.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Wycliffe]

I would have no problem supporting taxing environmentally unfriendly stuff like this especially if we offset it by lowering taxes elsewhere.

Surely it would make sense to use these additional funds to clean up environmental problem areas? Developing and building recycling centres for old batteries perhaps? As you mention, as the undesirable products die out this type of infrastructure can eventually be discontinued or re-tasked.

I don't have a big problem with the tax mitigating the problem for instance using the tobacco tax for smoking cessation programs or lung cancer research or using an additional battery tax to properly recycle single use batteries. This would have the added benefit of the tax slowly disappearing as the usage declines. If done correctly, taxes like this could help pay for the external costs that many environmentally destructive products have. The only drawback to this approach is that for the tax on something like the incandescent bulb to be effective it would likely have to be significantly higher than the direct external cost so some committee somewhere would have to decide how to best spend that money to clean up power plants, buy carbon offsets, etc...

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Luckyo]

You'd have to raid a museum, or go dumpster diving in aliexpress to find a device behaving like this today. Doubly so because modern NiMH batteries have little in commong with early NiMH batteries. While the baseline chemistry is similar, the actual performance of the batteries is completely different.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Luckyo]

"Conditioning" is really only relevant for the older batteries. Same thing with your suggested "can't use them in applications that require longevity". Those were concerns with the early NiMH batteries.

Modern NiMH batteries are sold charged, because they hold charge for years and they do not have memory. You can safely put it into your fire alarm and expect it to last a year or two at least.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[torkus]

The Note 7 in particular definitely IS banned on commercial flights.

I still agree with GP that the risk was greatly over-sensationalized. It made good reading but the actual number of devices shown to spew fire and brimstone were extremely few, especially in comparison to the number of devices sold.

The overall Li-Ion risk is real though. Individually, it's nearly zero. I have dozens, if not hundreds, of Li-Ion cells in my possession of the the course of a year and have never had one catch fire. However, others do and...if you have a large brick of them catch fire in the cargo hold of a plane you can quickly have a catastrophic situation. It might be a one in a billion chance, but there's several billion total passengers per year.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[torkus]

I don't think you quite understand the issue. This is not about some proprietary interface where lithium ion with its particularities can be fit in. This an existing AAA and AA standard, which requires very tight tolerances on size, coupled with low cost, coupled with requirements to work in both high throughput and long durability modes.

AA sized lithium batteries exist. They're 3,7V and they suffer from same self-discharge problem that old rechargeable Ni-Cd and NiMH had. They do not work in any of the standard AA hardware. They suffer from several other similar problems that current AA and AAA chemistries have to much lesser degree if at all. At the same time, around 2010s, NiMH chemistry was reworked to the point where it became better than alkaline batteries in terms of energy capacity, and they could hold charge for years, which is why they're sold pre-charged.

Lithium ion is simply not a good chemistry for AA and AAA world. You pick a proper tool for the job. The problem seems to be that many people didn't get the message on shift in NiMH world, and still think that if they want batteries that will work for more than a couple of weeks after being left alone in the tool, they have to get alkline. Nowadays, you should be using NiMH for this purpose.

Do you have any idea what you're even saying?

Let's go in order: Li-Ion cells certainly have standard sizes and tolerances. Very long-durability (5+ years), low output, limited access is definitely the realm for non-rechargeable batteries but also a fairly niche use case. 'high throughput' i assume you mean to be high current output is most certainly NOT a strong spot for
alkeline batteries. In fact, they fail miserably in most high-current situations and are easily bested by even Ni-Cad cells

AA Sized Li-Ion cells exist but aren't commonly used because of the voltage difference. However, AA sized Lithium batteries (Li-FeS2 to be particular) are 1.5v cells with significantly higher energy density and high current capacity compared to alkaline batteries. Go google it. They're a great replacement for alkaline batteries except they're expensive (and disposal etc).

NiMH still falls short of the capacity of alkaline cells except for high-current use where alkaline falls short. NiMH chemistry for 'pre-charged' cells is actually tweaked for lower self-discharge at the cost of some capacity so your example is the exact opposite of what you should be referencing.

The "AA and AAA world" is a misnomer. It's simply the voltage that was available so things were designed around it. It's actually not ideal at all though. A higher voltage requires lower current (and/or fewer cells...which is why old things used to have 2,4, or even 6+ AA cells) which reduces wiring cost, resistive losses, and so on.

Not sure why you have a hard-on for NiMH but it's primary benefit is simply low-cost.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[dgatwood]

Lithium ion battery is a catch-all term for any battery that contains a bit of lithium in it (so maybe even the Starship Enterprise has one).

No, I believe it has two.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[dgatwood]

Or are you recommending putting in electronics to drop the 3.6 volt output of LiON to 1.5 volts? Fitting all that in a AAA form factor, not going to say it's impossible, but it'll be a tight squeeze.

Since 99% of electronics use two batteries, you could ostensibly come up with a configuration in which every second cell is some sort of current-sensitive variable resistor circuit or something, along with warnings about not using them in devices that require an odd number of cells, but in this day and age, you'd probably end up getting sued if you did.

That said, I don't know why it would be that hard to fit a SMT switched-mode regulator along with a small Lithium ion cell into a AAA form factor. It's not like they have to provide that much current.

Re: Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

The Note 7 in particular definitely IS banned on commercial flights.

But LiIon batteries are definitely not banned on commercial flights.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[walshy007]

LiFePo is likely more suited, 3.6v peak with 3.2v nominal as opposed to 4.2v peak 3.7 nominal.

Considering that NiMH is a consistent 1.2v/cell 2.4v should function for typical two cell setups. Which means that a single LiFePo cell with a low dropout linear regulator would work a treat. Something like a LT1763-2.5 should do the trick fairly efficiently.

Combined with a low voltage cutoff for protecting the battery and that could be nice. A quick scan of amazon shows that they already make AA size lifepo batteries that fit, a single cell in one side and the regulator and the other and you're set.

Someone somewhere must already be selling this, but I've yet to stumble across it after a quick google.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[JackieBrown]

I don't have a big problem with the tax mitigating the problem for instance using the tobacco tax for smoking cessation programs or lung cancer research or using an additional battery tax to properly recycle single use batteries. This would have the added benefit of the tax slowly disappearing as the usage declines.

If only that is what they used the tobacco tax for. Now, with so many people quitting, states that relied on this funding are hurting and having to push up the tax even higher (or tax other stuff) just to make up for the lost revenue.

Re: Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

They most definitely are banned as checked luggage.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Luckyo]

You have several factually incorrect assumptions/statements:

1. Li-ion cells refers to obviously rechargeable cells. Not one use and throw away batteries, where pricing is always going to be king, which is why alkaline is in everything and everyone else is barely a blip on the radar.
2. Modern NiMH have capacities that exceed 2500 mAh in shorter life batteries (usually about 2-3 years) and longer life batteries are usually around 2000mAh at full charge. This is comparable to modern alkalines in most usage, and in many cases better in high discharge rate scenarios as alkalines hit internal resistance wall as you note. But modern low self-discharge batteries are actually of higher capacity than old ones. Old ones typically rated (in AA world from 2000s) from 800 to 1800mAh (with 1800 ones being easily five-six times the cost of 800s and often being out of spec in size, not fitting into some flash enclosures and such). Modern low discharge ones are 1900-2500mAh and they overwhelmingly do not suffer from the size issues.
3. AA and AAA have multiple factors. Voltage and size being the most obvious ones. You'll find that some battery makers actually flaunt the size limitations to increase capacity, which makes their batteries unworkable in tight fit applications. Xbox 360 wireless battery enclosure, I'm looking at you. I literally had to pry one set of "high capacity" batteries out of it with pliers.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

I had one. It was fine.

Until it exploded and burned my house down, but before that I loved it.

An intern here still has one. It's still fine. Quit over-sensationalizing.

This is the intern we never really liked anyways. While we never had the heart to kick them out. We just gave them a Galaxy note 7 and bide our time.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

I want a Dilithium Ion battery for my phone. Maybe it could last a week.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Shirley Marquez]

NiMH batteries last LONGER than alkaline batteries in some applications. They thrive in devices that have brief periods of high current drain, such as flashes for cameras. A problem with most NiMH batteries is the high rate of self-discharge (that is, the battery will lose power just sitting there), but cells that retain charge for years are available.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[dgatwood]

Of course, that's assuming you could convince folks to replace two batteries with one battery and a dummy, and assuming that people could do so without screwing it up in an unsafe way. There's probably some way to put a chip in the two batteries so they can communicate with each other and ensure that you can't use them with an odd number of batteries, but that would significantly increase the cost and complexity. And without that, it would probably be a non-starter from a product safety perspective, unfortunately.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Insanity Defense]

Not expecting them to heat up as much, putting them in a confined location where they cannot expand.

I have yet to see a removable AA, AAA and so forth standard battery without some form of spring loading that gives room for expansion so I doubt very much this is an issue. Now with machines whose design does not involve user changeable batteries space may be tight but not with user replaceable standard batteries.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Agripa]

I don't have a big problem with the tax mitigating the problem for instance using the tobacco tax for smoking cessation programs or lung cancer research or using an additional battery tax to properly recycle single use batteries.

You want to recycle zinc, manganese, and potassium?

Just call it what it is, a disposal tax. Because nobody is going to recycle anything from these batteries.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Agripa]

And not environmentally friendly to have disposable batteries with plastics and electrolyte compounds tossed into landfills.

Time to ban disposable batteries and introduce LiON chemistry replacement cartridges for these old AA and AAA cells.

So trade the chemistry which uses zinc, manganese, and lye with something else?

One problem with the potential rechargeable lithium chemistry replacements is that they have incompatible charge requirements and fail destructively if reverse charged in a series configuration. This is already a problem with 3 volt nominal CR123 and 17670 size rechargeable lithium cells.

So really what you are advocating is smart batteries, price gouging, and less safety.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[mysidia]

So really what you are advocating is smart batteries, price gouging, and less safety.

Actually: just smart battery cartridges with enough intelligence to make certain recharging occurs in a controlled manner;
that may require the cartridge have built-in serious diodes on the electrodes and the recharge process involving connecting each battery using a special plug.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[Wycliffe]

If only that is what they used the tobacco tax for. Now, with so many people quitting, states that relied on this funding are hurting and having to push up the tax even higher (or tax other stuff) just to make up for the lost revenue.

Exactly. They never keep it separate. Even when they do, like with lottery money and education, they end up reducing general funds at an equal rate so they start to depend on it anyways. Sin/consumption/use taxes that are designed to reduce consumption should take that into account and make sure that they have a plan if it really does reduce consumption like it is supposed to. If the tax is actually used to mitigate the use then presumably as consumption goes down then the tax revenue needed also drops as well which is an ideal use for the extra tax.

Re:Ripe for disruption

[DontBeAMoran]

I believe it has three. The main battery, the primary backup and the secondary backup.

"Starfleet code requires a secondary backup, in case the first one fails." - Chief O'Brien

Re:Ripe for disruption

[toddestan]

And if you're going to be lazy and not check up on the batteries in the flashlights in your emergency kit, I'd recommend getting Lithium batteries (not Lithium-ion, these are not rechargeable). They are more expensive, but they have a longer shelf-life, and won't leak like alkaline batteries. They'll also last longer if you need to use them.

Isn't lithium supply pretty limited?

[brucekeller]

The price of lithium has skyrocketed in the last few years, so I assume the profit margins went down since the price of batteries didn't go lock step. Lithium batteries are one of the main things keeping EVs from being carbon neutral off the lot and they are just generally pretty bad for the environment. Hopefully graphene batteries come sooner rather than later.

Re:Isn't lithium supply pretty limited?

[amorsen]

The article is about traditional 1.5V alkalines. Large lithium batteries are as far as I can tell continuing their rapid price decline. I don't know what consumer disposable lithium battery price is doing, I've never owned one.

Re:Isn't lithium supply pretty limited?

[Junta]

This is about the non-rechargeable alkaline batteries, which generally manufacturers are moving away from needing in favor of Li-ion batteries, they are more convenient and now more affordable than they used to be. If you release using alkaline batteries against a competitor with baked in li-on, you'll probably lose.

For the market that still uses AA, AAA, C, and D cell sorts of batteries, well low self-discharge NiMH is very appealing now. Shelf-stable batteries that can be recharged without concern about 'memory' are much more practical than batteries of the past.

So volumes dip and the vendors adjust their output and pricing to have the smaller customer base sustain their business.

Re:Isn't lithium supply pretty limited?

[BronsCon]

Graphene is carbon... what happens when the batteries are disposed of? Or when they burn after a catastrophic failure?

Re:Isn't lithium supply pretty limited?

[omnichad]

If you release using alkaline batteries against a competitor with baked in li-on, you'll probably lose.

That depends heavily on the product. If it's something I know I'll be using 10 years from now, I want some sort of guarantee of battery availability when I've hit the limit of charge cycles. For a Canon DSLR camera, it's fine - there will definitely be replacement batteries out there. If it's a small tool or gadget that won't ever have huge marketshare, there's no way I don't want alkaline or NiMH AA batteries. But to be honest, things like my flashlight get alkaline batteries - the batteries last 3-5 years depending on usage patterns and the investment for rechargeables probably will never be worth it.

Re:Isn't lithium supply pretty limited?

[Junta]

I agree with the sentiment, but I think we are in the minority. Most people seem to like plugging in their phone charge cord into whatever it is and going, and they aren't even thinking about that device 5 years down the line.

I would love more direct use of standard size Li-ion cells, compared to custom packaging of Li-ion.

Re:Isn't lithium supply pretty limited?

[Gr8Apes]

But to be honest, things like my flashlight get alkaline batteries - the batteries last 3-5 years

My flashlight gets rechargeables. I was burning through alkalines in about 2-3 weeks. With rechargeables, I get through 3 weeks before the light starts dimming noticeably. Then again, I actually use my flashlight daily.

Eneloop is the way to go

[ZorinLynx]

Nobody should be buying any batteries that aren't Eneloop rechargeables. They come charged, do not self discharge appreciably, and perform better than alkalines in most situations. Once you have a set you can keep using and recharging them for many years. I have decade old Eneloops that still work great.

Sanyo (later Panasonic) solved the rechargeable battery problem completely.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Rick Schumann]

NiMH cells are 1.2V nominal, alkaline primary batteries are 1.5V nominal; devices designed for alkaline primary batteries won't necessarily work correctly (or work correclty for very long) with 1.2V cells. 1.2V is considered "discharged" for an alkaline battery, by the way. Rechargeable cells would be fine, but they need to be 1.5V nominal like what they're replacing; otherwise you need to redesign products to work with 1.2V cells, or with a 'dummy' slot so you can use 1 extra 1.2V cell.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[ZorinLynx]

I've been using NIMH batteries for decades and have never had a problem with a device not working properly due to under-voltage.

Most modern electronics are designed with NIMHs in mind. Some devices actually work better because despite the lower voltage, NIMHs have lower internal resistance too.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Junta]

If you need more than 1.2V out of your alkaline battery, you will chew threw batteries pretty quickly. A typical discharge curve has about 40% capacity left when the alkaline hits 1.2V. Generally you don't consider an alkaline depleted until it's at 0.9V.

If you design for 1.5V, then the batteries will become useless even though you have more than 95% of your capacity remaining.

Alkaline voltage drops proportional to charge pretty dramatically. It would be *nicer* if the voltage on NiMH was higher, but anything that demanded more than 1.2V out of alkaline batteries was pretty crappy.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[amorsen]

Actually most devices work absolutely fine on 1.2V instead of 1.5V. They contain voltage regulators and it all works out. Regular rechargeables die rapidly from self-discharge though, giving people the impression that rechargeables are incompatible with devices. However, that is just because regular rechargeables suck.

As ZorinLynx says, buy Eneloops. Or one of the other Panasonic brands that are actually the same battery -- Panasonic marketing keeps trying to kill the Eneloop brand. There ARE applications where 1.2V Eneloops do not satisfy. However, most of those have moved to built-in Lithium batteries...

It would be very handy if they added a fifth slot to some devices though, just for the extra running time.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Most small alkaline battery devices have a pretty wide range of acceptable voltage input, so they can keep going when the battery degrades.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

the pink ones are better than the brown ones.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[ZorinLynx]

> Panasonic marketing keeps trying to kill the Eneloop brand

Do you know why they'd do this?

For people who have had a good experience with Eneloops, we associate the brand with quality. I've been singing the praises of Eneloops for years; Panasonic isn't even paying me, they've just been THAT good in my experience. Seems "Eneloop" would have quite a bit of brand recognition among rechargeable battery users by now.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Junta]

Oh, I neglected to mention that while Alkaline voltage drops with capacity, NiMH has a pretty flat voltage relatively speaking. It stays right around 1.2V for most of it's capacity, then drops all of a sudden as it nears drained.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

For devices that use AA or AAA batteries the Eneloops are a lot better since they work in those devices. Your 18650 cells won't.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[omnichad]

Electronics, usually. An ancient cassette Walkman will play slightly too slow.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[PPH]

If you design for 1.5V

This. For alkaline batteries, the voltage vs charge curve is a slope. To get most of the capacity out of the battery, you have to run it down to around 1.0 Volts. So 1.2 Volts is the halfway point for an alkaline. NiMH have a much flatter curve and will hold 1.2 Volts out to around 10% charge. And then they drop off. Fast. The down side to this is that 'battery meters' which show capacity remaining for an alkaline cells give you a reasonable idea of how much capacity you have left. NiMH just seem to hang in there until the end and then drop fast. Which may not give users enough time to swap out with a fresh set.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[magarity]

Panasonic marketing keeps trying to kill the Eneloop brand

WTF you talking about? Panasonic branded Eneloops are on the shelf at Costco right now.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Tuidjy]

Even most older devices were not designed with the expectation that they would get 1.5V from their alkaline batteries. The voltage drops pretty steeply with the charge, so a well made device would be able to function at lower voltage... or it would require frequent battery changes, and waste a large portion of the charge.

A big part of the perception of "rechargeable batteries do not work" is a consequence of self-discharge. There was a period when most, if not all, rechargeable batteries lost charge very quickly even when not in use. Fortunately, there are modern brands that do not suffer from it, or at least, not so much that I'd notice.

Personally, I use Eneloops from Panasonic, and have no complaints. They are expensive, but in the long run, they seem to be best. A friend of mine who keep adding devices to his company's warehouses has tried AmazonBasics, and says they are crap, and something called Powerex Imediate (or similar) and swears by the latter.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[nightfire-unique]

Wellllll ... Eneloops are fantastic, and I own dozens.. but lithium primaries are still the way to go for low-drain applications like fire/CO alarms, IR remotes, emergency equipment, etc.

They have a significantly higher energy density and even lower self-discharge.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

I buy my batteries from IKEA made in Japan (IKEA Ladda 2450mAh AA)

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Maxo-Texas]

FYI, Ikea sells Eneloop rechargable batteries for much less with their own cover.

There's a video on Youtube about it where he completely disassembles the batteries and also shows they are made at the same factory but just have different covers.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[amorsen]

I have literally no idea why Panasonic hates the Eneloop brand. Panasonic even tried to dilute it with the "Eneloop Lite" thing.

Anyway, it is sometimes worth checking pricing of Panasonic Infinium, you might get them slightly cheaper than Eneloops and they are literally the same thing apart from the less attractive packaging. Eneloops are (and have always been, even in the Sanyo era) produced by Fujitsu. Fujitsu sells them under their own brand too. Again, same battery. Other manufacturers sell rebranded Fujitsu batteries as well, but some of them also sell Chinese batteries under the same brand name they use for Fujitsu batteries, so that gets complicated.

So far I have only dared buy Sanyo Eneloop (strangely you can sometimes still get those?!), Panasonic Eneloop, and Panasonic Infinium. I probably own fifty by now, and I can't recall disposing of any. I have lost a few to forgetting them in stuff that got sold/passed on to others; hopefully they found good homes.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[amorsen]

Yes, but Panasonic has made repeated attempts at changing the name -- Infinium, Ready To Use. There's also Evolta which I believe is a different battery entirely.

Luckily the product itself stays the same, and it's been a few years since the last serious attempt at wiping out the Eneloop brand.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using Eneloop for maybe 10 years now, and I've encountered only a single device that needs true Alkaline: an outdoor wireless thermometer that transmits to an indoor base station.

Everything else, and I mean *everything* else in our house has run fine with Eneloops.

The life isn't always as long as an alkaline, but man, always having a charged battery on hand makes up for it. The only other minor inconvenience I notice is that the time between low-battery warnings and running out of battery is often quite short, but that makes sense given the lower starting voltage.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed not, but apparently I "shouldn't be buying them"...?

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Rick Schumann]

I am aware of the discharge curve of the chemistry of various cells. As for the rest of it, {citation needed}, please, and just because someone's anecdotes indicate they've "had no problems for decades" doesn't mean that's typical experience or in any way a reflection of overall reality.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Rick Schumann]

..again, {citation needed}, and anecdotal experiences don't necessarily mean anything. Plenty of devices don't work properly when they're running off 20% less rail voltage.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Kohath]

You can get 8 AA or AAA batteries for $1 at the dollar store. Eight Eneloops with charger(s) is like $30. That's a very, very long payback time for the Eneloops. Can you even charge them 30 times before they fail?

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[epine]

If you need more than 1.2V out of your alkaline battery, you will chew threw batteries pretty quickly. A typical discharge curve has about 40% capacity left when the alkaline hits 1.2V. Generally you don't consider an alkaline depleted until it's at 0.9V.

Nothing profound here, just a straw poll of my own records, since the subject came up.

I usually measure my "dead" batteries (no load, but usually immediately after attempting to draw power from the device, which does make a difference).

One of my kitchen scales spits batteries out at 950–1050 mV, the other scale goes into calibration wobble (a few 100 mg, but annoying) south of 1300 mV (three batteries).

Even so, I get about the same year from each scale, on regular daily use, given good quality alkalines (the precise scale is faster and better, but only goes up to 600 g). Both scales are nuts-on my 200.0 g calibration weigh, year after year, to within one ULP.

My quad kitchen timer spits batteries out at 1150–1250 mV. This is LCD-based with no backlight (but LED activity lights), and usually lasts 18 months. Every time I start any large cooking project, I set a 6-hour countdown timer, to track absolute elapsed time. It doesn't always run to zero, but it still racks up a lot of hours. The idea with this timer is that you can time each hob separately, but that doesn't really translate in practice in a busy kitchen. What I love about this timer is that it keeps counting down into negative numbers when I blow it off, to deal with something else more urgent. None of my other timers measure my blow-off delay (which can be important in tracking total cook time).

My laser-infrared kitchen thermometer rates itself for 3300 15-second activations on two AAA batteries, and I think that's about right, but I didn't get around to measuring the failure voltage on the last battery replacement cycle. I don't think it would like 1.2 volt batteries, but you never know.

The only devices I have that would run all the way down to 900 mV would be cheap LED flashlights.

I sent a third kitchen scale to my wife's (outdoor) barn to measure horse nutrients. She brought it home once after several years in "use" for a battery service and both batteries were still at 1550 mV. So I cleaned the contacts and sent it back.

The problem with NiMH batteries is that almost everything I have that sucks any serious juice bonks out too close to the 1200 mV range. I have a Sony voice recorder that I use almost daily (actually designed for NiMH as well as alkaline), and I've actually had to replace several sets of NiMH batteries that ran out of charge cycles. Hmm, I never thought about this much before, but it explains why the top charge bar disappears with the NiMH batteries about 30 minutes into their first use after a fresh recharge.

We once had a Sony Walkman that I once used to capture my wife's favourite mix tapes onto the iPod. I guess country music isn't impacted much by capstan wobble. Anyway, she was completely happy with this, even though I think the beat faded at the end of each battery pair (actually, I think it just became less capable of compensating for variation in tape tension, because it was surely regulated to some degree).

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Jadecristal]

Imedion.

Here's a decent, recent review:

https://metaefficient.com/rech...

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Rick Schumann]

There's two classes of voltage regulators: linear regulators (LDOs, Low DropOuts, anymore really) and switching regulators (which includes buck, boost, and buck-boost types). LDOs are inexpensive but even though the drop across the FET is low compared to a bipolar transistor, it's still a voltage drop. A switching regulator charges an inductor then discharges it into filter capacitors and can be more efficient than an LDO depending on whether it was designed properly. However an LDO is cheap both in production cost and PCB footprint used (typically one IC with maybe a couple decaps on the input and output) whereas a switcher is more expensive in both production cost and PCB footprint (the latter even if it's a high-frequency, i.e. MHz-range switching frequency, thus being able to use a tiny inductor and small filter caps). When your production run of your consumer device is in the hundreds of thousands, there's pressure to go with the less expensive options, so many have LDOs instead of switchers even if it's not the best choice -- therefore whereas battery supply voltage is a known variable, they may not be able to fully drain them before the device stops functioning.

Furthermore some devices just plain aren't as effective with a lower terminal voltage than they are otherwise. Consider that the difference in voltage between a 4-cell akaline primary battery pack and a 4-cell NiMH battery pack is ~1.2V (based on nominal terminal voltage of alkaline cells is 1.5V and NiMH is 1.2V; we won't consider that out-of-the-package-new akalines are more like 1.6V and the 'surface charge' of a freshly-charged NiMH is more like 1.3V). A high-current-draw device may not function satisfactorily on 4.8V in this scenario, regardless of whether they're fully-charged cells or not, and regardless of the cell's internal resistance being low (which affects maximum current delivery more than anything else, really).

You also have to consider that the total mAH capacity of a AA-size NiMH cell is a fraction of what a AA-size alkaline primary cell is -- and let's also not forget that regardless of being able to purchase C and D-size NiMH cells, they're still AA-size inside the outer casing; only AAA-size NiMH are actually smaller. That limits the applications, and also increases consumer frustration, when the need C or D cells and get only a fraction of the total runtime before having to spend hours and hours waiting for the cells to recharge.

If you're going to trot out anecdotes as 'proof' that there's no real difference, then hear this: I can't even put AA-size NiMH cells into the 'Atomic' clocks I have, which aren't old, without them not working correctly (mainly display clarity issues). My TV remotes don't really work very reliably on them either.

I'll stick by something I said in an earlier comment: If they start designing them with an extra battery slot, and provide you with a 'shunt' to put in it's place if you want to use alkaline cells instead of rechargeable, then I think that'd be a great idea, or design them for the much lower terminal voltage of a pack with NiMH cells in them.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

These Eneloops are NiMH? Do they have shelf stability? What about in tough environments like installed in an emergency light that is kept in a car that migth be parked in the sun, or in backpacks and camps that may experience wide temperature and elevation swings?

Here's my situation. We only use AA or AAA batteries these days in A/V remote controls and a few types of LED-based portable lamps. Several mini-maglites we keep in various places for emergencies, several bicycle head/tail lamps that are used in a blinking mode to make us visible rather than to illuminate our path, and little head-lamps for camping and hiking back to camp if we stay out too late. My challenge is shelf life and leakage, not frequent replacement from discharge. I've had batteries fail and leak in devices even though they hadn't been discharged. I don't want to be replacing devices every 3-5 years because their original alkalines burst inside them.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[havana9]

For specia cases there are rechargeable alkalines, and if you'll take the fire hazard risk even the non-recheargeable alkalines are actually rechargeable a few times. ALCAVA AAA Alkaline

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[fuzznutz]

I've been using NIMH batteries for decades and have never had a problem with a device not working properly due to under-voltage.

Most modern electronics are designed with NIMHs in mind. Some devices actually work better because despite the lower voltage, NIMHs have lower internal resistance too.

I bought NiMH batteries specifically for my four AA battery, Canon point-and-shoot camera. With fully charged batteries, the camera turns on, displays the low battery symbol, and shuts back down. They might work fine for flashlights and such, but they are not suitable for everything.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[John.Banister]

I have read that Amazon Basics NiMH are also rebadged Eneloops.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Junta]

Searching the internet for 'alkaline voltage curve' will lead to a variety of graphs. I will say it looks like generally things take a sharp turn at about 1V, rather than 0.9V.

I also had a voltmeter that shows 'bad', 'questionable', and 'good' instead of voltages. Below 1.0V, that's 'bad', 1.0-1.1V is 'questionable', 1.1V lands in 'God'.

Plugging into a relatively recent device, that devices batter meter declares it as 'full', suggesting that one was specifically designed with the thought of 1.2V being great. I put fully charged LSD NiMH in a 15 year old camera, and it declares the battery as 1/3 'bars' (with 'blinknig empty box' being the next level).

I will also attest that I've not encountered a single device that would not operate at 1.2V per battery. I know that for devices that take battery *or* DC input, the DC input almost always is 1.5V * the number of batteries, however they clearly continue to function at lower battery voltages.

I would wager there are wasteful things out there that can't handle 1.2V, but such a device runs the risk of being seen as a 'battery eater' since such devices would be nearly halving the usable capacity of the batteries you give it. If you did have such a device, it would be mandating use of Lithium AA batteries, but I haven't personally seen devices with that requirement, though I presume they exist.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody should be buying any batteries that aren't Eneloop rechargeables.

I'll be your nobody then. I used to have lots of NiMH batteries. but now they are a waste of money for me. I just checked prices and I'd have to charge them six times before I break even. That just won't happen. Any device I use that often has a rechargeable lithium battery. Most even have a micro-USB port for charging. That's so much better then Eneloop.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

You can charge them minimum about 500 times before they fail. Some variants last a lot (about 4x) longer than that.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[maestroX]

I would wager there are wasteful things out there that can't handle 1.2V, but such a device runs the risk of being seen as a 'battery eater' since such devices would be nearly halving the usable capacity of the batteries you give it. If you did have such a device, it would be mandating use of Lithium AA batteries, but I haven't personally seen devices with that requirement, though I presume they exist

Yes and no. Some devices (such as radio/old-style flashlight) perform better at high voltage, and are better served by alkaline than NiMH. Lots of (older) portables designed like that, and those who don't are served well by NiMH, except low-drainage.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[maestroX]

NiMH just seem to hang in there until the end and then drop fast. Which may not give users enough time to swap out with a fresh set.

.... which basically turns the NiMH into a consumable as well.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[PPH]

NiMH cells are rechargeable.

Re:Eneloop is the way to go

[toddestan]

Keep in mind that your dollar store alkalines will likely not last nearly as long as a decent set of alkalines. Generally the dollars per run time ratio still favors the cheap batteries if don't mind having to swap them out more often, but you're getting what you paid for.

Costco

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy your batteries from Costco. A 72-pack of AAs costs around $20. They are every bit as good as Energizers or Duracells and they cost a fraction of the price.

Re: Costco

[Anonymous Coward]

That's pretty much the price of Ikea rechargeables 3-4 years ago. With the disposable battery prices increasing, as did rechargeables.

No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[RevDobbs]

As stated in the article:
1) Off-brand sucks
2) People are too lazy to think ahead and buy on-line.

Most goods are available cheaper/better on-line, but if you're going to wait until you absolutely need it you will be stuck with whatever local pricing and availability is.

... this doesn't even pertain explicitly to batteries, it is a fact of life about most consumables.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[Dzimas]

Off-brand batteries don't suck, though. We use Amazon, Kirkland (Costco) and IKEA batteries rather than wasting money on Energizer/Duracell.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[MBGMorden]

I have no issue with Off-Brand. I do mostly rechargeables, and use a ton of "AmazonBasics" batteries that work fine, though I also use some other brands mixed in there.

And if I absolutely HAVE to buy from a store? Rayovac works just as good as the other two and is usually a bit cheaper.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[freeze128]

Prices *HAVE* risen for batteries, and noticeably. I would often get 4 AA Duracell batteries at my local Micro Center for $2 a pack. They were in a generic package, but the cells were clearly Duracell. I recently visited that same store and saw that the packs were now retail boxes and the price had DOUBLED! You may argue that the cheaper cells were counterfeit, but they always lasted as long as actual Duracells.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, hasn't there been multiple studies proving this? Sure, there may be a few "off-brand" brands that do suck, but I've not run into one. I've switched to mostly Rayovac (Walmart) and Amazon Basic batteries. No issues whatsoever, and cheaper than the "duopoloy" brands.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[ceoyoyo]

It depends on what the off brand battery actually is. Zinc-carbon batteries are very cheap and easy to make but they have lower capacity and leak when they get old.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[aaarrrgggh]

The Duracell batteries have been eating my devices for a few years; I always assumed it was knock-off batteries from Amazon, but now I wonder if it isn't just penny pinching on production.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Alkalines also leak when they get old. That includes both Energizer and Duracell. I've replaced nearly everything with NiMH batteries, and never had one of those leak. Every now and then I find a toy or device that had a battery that I missed, and you guessed it, the battery had leaked and the negative terminal had corroded.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[Carewolf]

It depends on what the off brand battery actually is. Zinc-carbon batteries are very cheap and easy to make but they have lower capacity and leak when they get old.

No one has made those in 30 years.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[OneAhead]

1) Off-brand sucks

This (and even more the use of "duopoly" in TFS) needs at least a little bit of nuance. Duracell alkalines almost consistently start leaking when discharged fully. While that's something one should never do on purpose, it may easily happen on accident (e.g. heavy object placed on top of remote / wireless HID), and other brands have the problem much less (Duracell got hit by a class-action lawsuit because of this). This includes fine brands such as Varta (Germany), Panasonic (Japan) and GP (Hong Kong), who make some of the finest batteries money can buy, even if sometimes disguised under a store name (e.g. IKEA). You're only consigned to an (at least half-sucky) duopoly with (sometines sucky) off-brands on the side if you don't look any further than US brands.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[ceoyoyo]

https://www.amazon.com/SONY-S-...

Better tell Amazon they've got some really old stock.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[Carewolf]

https://www.amazon.com/SONY-S-...

Better tell Amazon they've got some really old stock.

Someone better because that is an insane ripoff on multiple levels, or just something old used crap someone is selling on Amazon.

Re:No, the duopoly is not ripe for disruption

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.amazon.com/Rayovac-Heavy-Batteries-5AA-4D-4-Pack/dp/B008I6VOPS

In 30 years? Really? These are zinc-carbon. Other manufacturers also sell them.

No one should ever buy them, but they're still sold, and very cheap.

fake news?

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't noticed prices going up up up for batteries. I don't see any links or sources cited for this claim.

Re:fake news?

[skids]

I've been sticker-shocked at the retail level for 9V alkalines. Bought rechargeables online cheaper than shelf prices for alkaline.

It's really no surprise: prices do go up for obsolete things as they enter the market of things primarily bought by A) specialty niche users and B) indiscriminate consumers who are easy to part with their money.

Article may be right, but this guy can't plan...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Batteries ordered online take too long to arrive [...]"

You know you're gonna need them, order more of them, earlier. Better yet, get rechargeable ones. 18650 is a standard battery size/format used in plenty of things, especially flashlights and vapes, among other things. The Samsung 25-R's I have been using for several years now are $5 each from a place like illumn.com, and the 2-slot charger with protection and maintenance features was less than $20, and fits many sizes and chemistry of batteries.

This guy is dumb and/or lazy.

Rechargeables

[CrashNBrn]

We rarely ever buy regular batteries for anything. Maybe once in the last 10 years, a bundle of Kirkland AA's for a camping excursion where I gave out a bunch of cheap $3 mini-lanterns to all of the our friends and family.

Otherwise, we've switched all of our Flashlights over to rechargeable 14500, 18650, and 26650 cells. A few other LED lights around the house use rechargeable double or triple A's.

Re:Rechargeables

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried switching to rechargable batteries, but the problem was the chargers.

It was very difficult to find high-quality chargers that would charge all of the different sorts of batteries I was using (A, AA, AAA, 9V, C, D). And the chargers came with vague instructions that were written in poorly-translated Chinese. Only certain combinations of batteries could be charged simultaneously. Also, it was never clear how long a battery should be charged. There was a table in the instruction booklet that could be used to estimate the time, but the batteries I was using would often be off the scale. And the charging time was so long that I wouldn't be able to guarantee that I'd be home when they finished charging. The instructions had vague warnings about the dangers of overcharging, and there was a special safety shut-off feature, but that was always triggered after a fixed number of hours regardless of how charged (or under-charged) the battery was. For the batteries with extremely long charging times, the safety shut-off would trigger itself before the battery was finished charging, and I would have to manually reset the charger to continue charging the batteries. And, of course, if I was charging different types of batteries at the same time (subject to the restrictions in the instruction booklet), the different types would have different charging times, and I would have to keep track of it.

After a few years, I eventually went back to using ordinary, single-use batteries.

Re:Rechargeables

[skids]

I bought a relatively well reviewed, one-cell-per-channel, moderately priced NiMH/NiCad charger that does all the A's and 9V and had a DC input in case I ever needed it.

I've had it for 15 years, pop cells in when they go dead, close the lid, leave them there for weeks until the next time I have a dead cell. It blinks when it sees the battery and stops blinking and goes solid when they are charged. Never a leak; never an exploded cell. Worst thing that ever happened was I had to once pre-charge a cell for a couple minutes that had gotten too low, using a cheaper charger that came with some batteries I bought, before the unit could see it.

Re:Rechargeables

[CrashNBrn]

EBL chargers and batteries are all pretty good at a decent price. Went with a different brand for the high (and low) drain 18650/26650's and 14500's.

not a duopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

what of Rayovac (Canada) ? and Varta (Germany) ?

Re:not a duopoly

[PPH]

Ikea Ladda FTW!

Re:not a duopoly

[MBGMorden]

Never hard of Varta batteries, but Rayovac is very available here in the south-east US. I almost never see a battery rack with Energizer and Duracell that doesn't also have Rayovacs on it.

Re:not a duopoly

[jonwil]

According to Wikipedia, Rayovac sold its battery division to Energizer in January (including the Varta brand which they bought at some point when the parent company went bust)

Re:not a duopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

Which explains why Rayovac has been getting harder to find and less of a bargain. Up the duopoly!

HarrysBatteries

[cahuenga]

Just bought the domain

It was ripe for disruption a while ago

[AvitarX]

We're seeing the results of said disruption. Cheap, pretty decent batteries that charge the same way as my phone.

Portable speakers, portable phone chargers, emergency flashlights, all of these used to have single use batteries, now many have rechargeable built in.

I don't buy anything that's not rechargable. I have a few AA and AAA I keep charged, but basically, I want everything I have to be chargable.

Sure, my flashlight won't last as long, but so what, I can keep it charged and get plenty of time out of it.

I'm sure I'm not the only use case, but it doesn't matter, I'm clearly a large enough use case that it's driving single use batteries into a niche market.

I can get an 1860 cell that has similar energy to a AA, sure, it's bigger, but not much, and more power efficient items have made it so we don't need as many total mAh.

I'd rather have a slightly larger item that can be recharged personally, then I never need a battery.

Re:It was ripe for disruption a while ago

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I don't buy anything that's not rechargable

I feel the exact opposite - I love AA devices. I want batteries to be replaceable and standard. I have rechargeable AA's. The batteries are obviously user-replacable. I can keep a bunch of them charged for quick swaps. I don't need to figure out which device needed to be charged, I just put the AAs in the charger from wherever they came from. I don't need to move the devices to near an outlet to charge them. And, in an emergency, I can just get a bunch of non-rechargable AAs from the store to run devices.

I'm clearly a large enough use case that it's driving single use batteries into a niche market.

I'm not sure that's really true. While the number of rechargable devices has exploded, most of those are things are replacing power cords, not AAs.

Re:It was ripe for disruption a while ago

[AvitarX]

I would assume that the market for home batteries was:

*toys (far more rechargeable than in the past)
*flashlights (this probably leans towards replaceable, but there are plenty of rechargeable ones now too)
*portable music players (my main use when I was younger was CD, and then early MP3 players, all recharable
*Speakers for music players (A lot of the ones I had for CD or computer were plug in, AA, or unamped, at my discretion)
*Some chintzy tools (I still have a soldering iron that uses AA, and needs disposable, as the higher voltage is useful, almost all rechargeable now).

of these categories, only flashlights are majority disposable batteries, and they use what, 1/4 as many batteries as they used to?
Toys too maybe?

Where is the big battery demand I am missing? the big energy drains (moving toys, moving music players) have moved, or are moving away from replaceable batteries. Flashlights aren't the huge drain they used to be.

Re:It was ripe for disruption a while ago

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to favor AA batteries for the same reasons: ubiquitously available, optionally rechargeable, easy to have spare on hand. But now I hardly use devices with AA batteries anymore: LiPo batteries are just so much lighter and more compact than AA batteries for the same capacity, and they have much more predictable capacity. LiPo is easier to charge than NiMH. For high current applications (e.g. camera flash), you need high quality and comparatively expensive NiMH, but just about any LiPo will do.

I do wish manufacturers would standardize a few flat form factors for LiPo batteries. The Nokia dumb phone batteries are pretty widely used in some device classes (GPS trackers, etc.).

Re:It was ripe for disruption a while ago

[Anonymous Coward]

While the number of rechargable devices has exploded,

Phrasing!

Most profit is on the retail side

[technosaurus]

Battery markups are not measured in percent, but multiples... 10X markup is not uncommon.

Re:Most profit is on the retail side

[Anonymous Coward]

When prices rise in seeming disproportion to the supply and demand curves, there is only one explanation.

Illegal cartel.

News? Paywalled?

[sqorbit]

Really, this is "news that matters"? And to add to it the link is to the WSJ which is paywalled. How did this end up on slashdot?

Re:News? Paywalled?

[Anonymous Coward]

Paywalled WSJ articles are posted here regularly. Whoever owns Slashdot now must have some sort of deal with WSJ.

Re:News? Paywalled?

[Anonymous Coward]

Usually they include an alternate link, with a "warning" that the original may be paywalled.
Sigh...why can't the non-paywalled alternate be the only link referenced?

Re:News? Paywalled?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it matters. It's time to dump your Bitcoin and real estate investments and buy tons and tons of batteries. Batteries are good for a decade, it says so right on the package. Show me a single home which didn't need any repairs over any decade. Investing in batteries is the future!

Demand for "batteries..."

[b0s0z0ku]

Demand for batteries is likely going up, driven by electric cars, computers, phones, etc. What's going down is demand for STANDARD batteries. Many devices have proprietary batteries of all different sizes, often inaccessible to the user.

Thing is, there's no good reason for it other than planned obsolescence. Take smartphones. Almost all of them use 3.7V LiIon batteries. Most of them are about 5 to 6 inches diagonally, with a specific height/width ratio. Time for an industry standard for swappable smartphone batteries. Imagine if you could just buy a battery at 7-11, pop the door, and swap it in when your phone's battery dies. Or maybe have a few different sizes, depending on screen size. Call then X, Y, and Z.

But no, this will never happen because throwing things away is a big profit center for sellers of e-trinkets.

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[Anonymous Coward]

No as the energy density of lithium ion batteries increased, it became more dangerous to the consumer to have user replaceable batteries in smartphones.

And you can have the battery replaced fairly cheaply these days if you don't mind having the case opened. You don't need to throw it away and nobody is expecting you to do so. You are spreading false information.

People were updating every year due to feature creep, bigger screens, more powerful processors and memory. Not because of the battery.

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[b0s0z0ku]

Bullpuckey. Laptop batteries are just as dense and are often user-replaceable. Easy enough to design a connector that eliminates the possibility of a short circuit or put an internal fuse wire in the battery. Glued-in, flexible batteries make replacement MORE dangerous, not less, since you have to flex the battery to remove it.

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy fuck are you an idiot. And here on /. that's saying something.

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[drinkypoo]

Bullpuckey. Laptop batteries are just as dense and are often user-replaceable.

Laptop batteries are built out of metal-cased cells that are a lot less likely to burst into a sizable flame than the plastic-cased gel packs they use in cellphones even if they are made by assholes.

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[b0s0z0ku]

Bullpuckey. Even if the battery is a gel-pack, if it uses a proper connector (polarity keyed + low removal force), there's no reason for it to be damaged during installation or removal. Snap open the cover, unplug, remove, plop the new one in, plug it in, snap the cover closed. Or the battery can be 0.5mm thicker and have a hard plastic shell.

The practice of gluing the batteries in like (cr)Apple and Sony do actually increases the chances of fire or damage during DIY removal. So don't give me the BS line that it's about safety.

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[b0s0z0ku]

Not enough yarbles to insult with an actual username?

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[Anonymous Coward]

...Time for an industry standard for swappable smartphone batteries. Imagine if you could just buy a battery at 7-11, pop the door, and swap it in when your phone's battery dies.

Yes, imagine that.

Now imagine how the hell you support such a design and still manage to sustain an IP67 or IP68 rating.

Glad you now understand it's not that simple.

Re:Demand for "batteries..."

[b0s0z0ku]

Gasketed battery doors aren't exactly uncommon. (see image below) And yes, I'd pay the $5 extra it would cost to build a phone that way.

http://elenxs.com/images/FR/Fa...

Buy rechargeable batteries!

[Anonymous Coward]

There are rechargeable equivalents for virtually all kinds of batteries, AA, AAA, CR123, CR2, etc. Have yet to see rechargeable 9v cells, but how often do you need one?

People are just lazy and cheap, and not responsible.

Re:Buy rechargeable batteries!

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some low power devices where rechargeables don't make sense. All the remote controls for the entertainment stuff in your living room for example. Normal batteries last for years in them, rechargeables would selfdischarge way before that.

Then there are small alarm clocks. I have one that I bought in 2003, still runs on the AA battery it came with. And it's the kind that synchronizes itself daily with a time signal broadcast.

So for stuff that needs power, use rechargeables, but keep normal batteries around for things that run better with them.

Oh, BTW: rechargeable 9V blocks exist. Rated voltage is either 7.2V or 8.4V, both should work find in devices that require 9V alkalines.

I hardly noticed this one ....

[King_TJ]

It seems like years ago, I got disgusted with the high retail prices for the 4 or 8 packs of alkaline batteries on store shelves, so I made a concerted effort to stop buying them that way.

There's regularly a GroupOn special (like one I just saw yesterday for a 72-pack of Sony alkaline AA batteries) where you get them quite inexpensively in bulk.

I got something similar from Costco for free a year ago as one of a number of coupons they included with our membership purchase.

In other cases, it just makes sense to buy rechargeable batteries instead.

And lastly? For those pesky 9 volt batteries that we need for our smoke alarms, I started buying the yellow IKEA batteries. They're inexpensive compared to Duracell or Energizer but seem to get the job done.

ray-o-vac.

[WindBourne]

Seriously, rayovacs are made in America and costs less than Duracell/Energizer. Both of those brands are EXPENSIVE and really do not do that great of a job.,

Re:ray-o-vac.

[omnichad]

Energizer owns both Rayovac and Eveready.

Re:ray-o-vac.

[Anonymous Coward]

MY company actually did a formal test of batteries for test use and the Ray-O-VAc performed the best. (Leastt voltage drop over the life of the battery). This was only D Cells.

Re:ray-o-vac.

[tomhath]

Duracells are made in USA

Re:ray-o-vac.

[slyborg]

Thought you were wrong, but this basically just happened, the sale of Rayovac to Energizer Holdings just happened 3 months ago. Obvious move, Rayovacs were generally cheaper than either Energizers or Duracell, although I have had bad batches of batteries from them in the past. Now they'll be low quality batteries that cost just a tiny bit less than Energizers.

Guess it's Amazon Basics now.

Re:ray-o-vac.

[Waffle Iron]

I was going to say that you're wrong, but I looked it up, and unfortunately you're right as of January of this year.

I think it's likely that this is eventually going to mean the end of good deals on halfway-decent batteries.

Re:ray-o-vac.

[Anonymous Coward]

When was the test done? According to other posters Energizer bought Rayovac in January and quality has gone down since (and price up). Sad if this is true.

more factors

[trrosen3908]

I would say that like incandescent light bulbs, todays alkaline batteries are nothing like yesterdays. I'd love to see a graph of useful power output per dollar over time. Cheap dollar store batteries today are likely as good as the energizers and duracells of a decade or so ago.

Rayovac

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't help that Rayovac was bought out by the company that owns Energizer. Rayovac had come up in quality to surpass Duracell and Energizer, but I am seeing them less and less in stores.

Better alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

People have found a better alternitive in high capacity low loss rechargable batteries. Why spend $1 a battery on disposables when you can spend $2 on rechargables that last 500 cycles and not add to the landfill. The only reason they cost so much is because the industry is squeezing the last few pennies out of the suckers that still cling on and wont find an alternative until they need to. Just like the cable industry is doing to people who have not discovered streaming.

Re:Better alternative

[Strider-]

There are always going to be niche applications where the longer shelf life of good quality alkaline batteries is needed. I own a sailboat, and the emergency kit I've put together for it has a couple of battery powered devices (signal light/flashlight, emergency battery packs for my handheld radio). To ensure this equipment stays reliable, I basically have 3 sets of AA batteries stored in the kit. Basically every couple of years, I swap out the oldest set of AAs for a new set, then use the old ones for other purposes (clocks, remotes, keyboards, etc...).

For better or worse, there isn't really a rechargeable technology that can handle this kind of service cycle.

Re:Better alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Modern NiMH batteries keep 85% capacity over 3 years, you would be. much better off with 3 sets in the boat, and swap them for freshly charged ones every 2 years. I have not purchased alkaline batteries in years, and I have a toddler with many battery powered toys. Some of my remote controllers have had NiMH batteries (AA, AAA) for over 2 years and still work just fine. Also, I have yet to get a NiMH to leak on me, Alkalines are a crapshoot, especially with second or third tier brands.

Re:Better alternative

[ezdiy]

Modern NiMH batteries keep 85% capacity over 3 years

That's capacity, but not actual single charge.

NiMh lose 50% of charge after a year. At best, there is a special type called LSD (Sanyo), which can retain about 80% C after a year.

Meanwhile, modern LSD alkaline batteries retain 80% of charge for 5 years, and some are even 60% C after 10 years. I have a kitchen LCD digital clock still running with single GP AAA manufactured in 2009.

Lithium thionyl chloride ("button cells") have even lower self-discharge, as well as other benefits (higher energy density).

However, for anything with routine high-peak-current usage (toddler, remote), where self discharge hardly is an issue, just standard cheapo NiMh truly is the way to go.

Basically, Zn-Mno2/Li-SoCl2 makes sense only for two settings:

1. Continuous, but very low current usage (eg digital clock) which is on par with self-discharge rate itself.

2. Safety kits. NiMh bottoms any useful C after about 3 years, while other chemistries can stay well above half C.

Re:Better alternative

[meander]

There are always going to be niche applications where the longer shelf life of good quality alkaline batteries is needed

Current Fujitsu rechargeable batteries claim to hold 70% charge at 5 years. AAA, AA sizes, maybe more, but that is all I have seen or need.

I can now afford to have devices that I charge every 3 years or so.

Their progenitors, the Panasonic Eneloop, are still recharging well after a decade. Yes, I used to have to charge rarely used devices every year or so with those. I do them all in the same month every year. Easy, on my calendar.

I'm slowly changing over to the Fujistu as old eneloops die, however that is currently a slow process. Happily.

Re:Better alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Your information is at least 5 years out of data. The NiMH sold pre-charged keep around 75% of full charge after 4-5 years. And of course that's without re-charging.

SOme devices....

[Anonymous Coward]

Some devices can't use rechargeable for some reason - discharge rate or something I was told by the tech support people.

And I've actually had tech support people at a thermometer company (AcuRite) tell me what brand to use - the stupid thing wouldn't work. The Duracells wouldn't work and told me to use Rayovac batteries. I returned the POS.

My local stores just sell Duracell and Energizer.

I mean seriously, designing circuits that can only use one brand of battery? Or circuits that can't use rechargables?

Re:SOme devices....

[Lanthanide]

I mean seriously, designing circuits that can only use one brand of battery? Or circuits that can't use rechargables?

Yeah, I don't believe you either.

Re:SOme devices....

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I think this is a thing of the past now, but Alkaline batteries (what most gear was designed for) were 1.5 volts. When the NiCads came out they were 1.2 volts. And many electronics couldn't use them. They either sensed too low a voltage or they drew more current than designed. I guess the later NiMh and LiON batteries fixed that. But it is an example of where things didn't work.

Re:Article may be right, but this guy can't plan..

[Leuf]

He's a contractor and using flashlights that run on AAA batteries. He could use a flashlight that runs on the same batteries that are in his drill and other cordless tools but he's a moron.

Razors!

[tinkerton]

What a brilliant marketing. Instead of the basic cheap gear with replaceable single blades people now use disposable razors with 5 blades which look like an F1 car. Imagine the increase of revenue that means.

And yes I still use the oldfashioned gear...

Re:Razors!

[Brett Buck]

Single-blade razors give very poor shaves and have far too much tendency to cut. Be honest - because at my age I have gone from "safety razors" to injectors to two-and 3- blade cartridges and the difference in ease and safety is absurdly clear.

Re:Razors!

[tinkerton]

I don't really feel like being honest about this, it would dilute the idea :) And I can plead ignorance because I've never used anything else than the safety razor!

The serious part though is that the increase in revenue is really large. There's no need to deny the added value of the newer razors for that.

Price curves means prices go up as demand lessens.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think there's much to explain here. There's a fixed investment in the facilities and equipment to make batteries. The cost of that is distributed among the buyers.

Wait what? Online takes too long to arrive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone else here seems to be commenting on the technical chemistry aspects of battery design, but I just couldn't get past this bit: "Batteries ordered online take too long to arrive, Mr. Hurly said".

In the USA and not 200 miles into deliveranceville? Are you lying or just a dolt? I can get on Amazon and have AAA's on my doorstep by tomorrow for no extra shipping charge or if it's included in an order over $35 have it here TODAY. Does this cat race to X hardware store every 5 minutes to buy batteries or something?

PISS POOR PLANNING PREVENTS PROPER PERFORMANCE. Do we need a little blue dash button for contractors ordering batteries or something when their flashlights can't put out?

Stop buying overpriced batteries

[Kohath]

Duracells and Energizers are hugely overpriced. Stop buying them. You can get 8 AA or AAA batteries for $1 at the dollar store. They work fine.

Re:Stop buying overpriced batteries

[trrosen3908]

Science. say they all offer about the same value in power per dollar.

Re:Stop buying overpriced batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

The no-names work, for a little while. A very little while, often, due to flaky making in the first place and long storage before they're sold.

Around my place, we've been shifting to rechargeables for anything that is used often. They don't last really long, either, but the price multiple these days is on the order of 3-4 battery replacements otherwise and they certainly can be recharged more than that.

Re:Stop buying overpriced batteries

[Kohath]

Yeah, I didn’t study it. But Duracells and Energizers spent a bunch of money on ads and make a huge effort to get specific placements and price points in stores. And the generics seen fine. So I sincerely doubt the high priced batteries are competitive on price/performance.

Re:Stop buying overpriced batteries

[Kohath]

Dollar store batteries work good. I would guess they're less than half as much on a price/performance basis. But that's just a guess. I have no complaints. People who pay up for Duracells often complain about the price.

Re:Stop buying overpriced batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

I did study it, building a device to completely drain batteries and measure how much power came out of them.

The 4 for $1 Sunbeam brand alkaline batteries I got from the "Everything's $1" store work exactly the same as Duracell batteries.

Re:Stop buying overpriced batteries

[Kohath]

Here's a trial by a tv station: http://www.nbc12.com/story/182...

Summary: don't pay up for Duracells

Re:Stop buying overpriced batteries

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt they would have found that much difference had they used a proper testing rig. Using different (though identical) flashlights means different bulbs with perhaps slightly different resistances, not to mention the subjective call as to when to declare that a given flashlight has "went dark," as that is going to be a slow and gradual process.

My own rig has an identical resistance for each battery and an ADC to measure the voltage every second so that it can calculate and then sum how much current has flowed through the resistor until the battery falls below 0.8 volts and is declared "dead." With that test, there's no difference between the Sunbeam brand and the Duracells. They had the same mAh capacity, and even visually-similar voltage curves as the batteries discharged.

If there's any reason to prefer the Duracells, it would have to be their "they're still good after 10 years" guarantee. I kind of doubt there's a difference there either, but I can't really test it without putting batteries in the shelf for 10 years.

battery advice

[Jodka]

I have a wife and kids. We use a lot of batteries. I am not saying I found the best way to do this, but this system works extremely well for us. Advice and opinions interspersed below:

1. If you must buy disposable batteries, read Consumer Reports reviews and buy a top-rated off-brand. Some of the top-rated batteries are a fraction of the price of the two leading brands, Duracell and Energizer. In one review the Ikea batteries were the best deal by a mile.

2. Never use disposable lead-acid batteries unless you have to. One of the few cases now is when I give away stuff which takes batteries. Explaining battery charging to my elderly mother-in-law and getting her to do that would be impossible. Smoke/fire detectors are another case. Also, my UPS from my computer.

3. Buy a battery tester. It is maddening to have a bunch of old or party-used batteries around and not know which are good and which bad. Great battery testers are cheap.

4. Keep in mind that disposable lead-acid batteries suck. They can leak and destroy valuable equipment. They contain lead, a toxic element proven to lower IQ in children even in small quantities. The leaked acid can burn skin, it is especially a hazard to children who do no know to be wary. If you throw them out, the lead in the landfills will be a serious problem for a very long time in the future. Recycling lead-acid batteries is usually a nuisance.

5. For AA, AAA, C, D get NiMH rechargeables. Do not buy in the store, order online, where you can get quality batteries for cheap. Get enough that you can you can have batteries in every device and simultaneously charged/charging backups. NiMH hold a charge for a year+.

6. Get a top-rated smart charger which holds multiple battery types.

7. Consider getting devices purpose-built for Lithium cells. The 18650 cells will charge in the same charger, linked above, as used for NiMH cells. Make sure to get a quality Lithium battery, the cheap no-name ones are junk. The 18650 LED flashlights are fantastic. Avoid Lithium 14500 batteries, they are an accident waiting to happen since they are 3.7 volts but the size of a 1.5 volt AA battery.

8. One key to making the system work is to keep all the battery stuff, spare batteries, testers, watch batteries etc together in one place. I use a rubbermaid plastic box. Rubber bands and ziploc bags group and isolate loose batteries and along with the box compartmentalize leaks. Keep the charger plugged in in one place. Organization is essential, because if you are digging through draws, shelves and cabinets looking for batteries or the meter wondering where you left it then you are wasting time and driving yourself mad.

   

Re:Wait what? Online takes too long to arrive?

[Fly Swatter]

If a contractor needs it, they need it today. Contractors buy as needed, and are used to just picking up more on the next supply run. Small things bought ahead of time just wind up lost behind the pile of extra parts in the truck or shop. But yea you just sit there on your couch with the 'easy order' button.

If Energizer and Duracell are gouging you...

[williamyf]

Go and buy your batteries in RadioShack. They even have a battery of the month loyalty programme.

All jokes aside, If Energizer and Duracell are gouguing you, you can always buy Ray-o-Vac, Panasonic or Varta batteries...

Or even better: Buy Some Rechargable AAA (with suitable adapters for AA usage*) and 9Volts and help mother earth.

Buy aslo AA but only if you really need the extra oomph.

Re:If Energizer and Duracell are gouging you...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ray-o-Vac & Varta are Energizer now. If you see them, it's either old stock or Energizers that didn't make some quality control cut. Panasonic ... might still be Panasonic, but they're hard to find. RadioShack no longer exists. Rechargeables are really the only hope for things that get even moderate use. Keeps a few packs of Energizer or Duracell (bought on sale or with coupons) for emergencies (alkalines seem to have shelf lives of several years).

NiMH Burn Too

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of the hundreds used in the classroom, I had a Meijer NiMH AA burn while sitting out, not touching anything conductive. Took it to the fire department and never heard about it again. Since then I have dumped all of my Meijer NiMH batteries.

Take a look at light bulbs

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't that many years ago you could buy a 4-pack of carbon filament light bulbs for under a dollar. Now shops are asking $7 - $9 each for them. Could it be artificial inflation so that LED bulbs have less competition, I wonder?

RAYOVAC

[Anonymous Coward]

All i use. nuff said.

Voltages....

[WoTG]

Alkaline cells are 1.5v. Neither NiMH or previous generation NiCad cells are that high... NiMH is around 1.2V under load. For some devices this matters. There's one device that I have to coach people on using at work, with NiMH cells, the battery charge indicator always looks half-used which freaks the users out... even though it will work longer at about "half-used" than the original alkaline cells would starting from "full".

Some things don't work at all at the lower voltage.

Re:Voltages....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that is one issue. Had a wireless mouse that would not work with rechargeables.
However note that these devices will only get maybe 50% of the charge out of normal batteries as well, so they are crap in general.
A somewhat bigger issue is devices that go the other way and try to drain batteries to the last drop, like down to 0.5 volts. Those are quite likely to damage, sometimes even destroy, rechargeable batteries if you do not switch/charge them in time.
Then there is the problem that many rechargeable batteries have high self-discharge rates, so unless you want to swap them regularly you have to by the right type.
But NiMH is much better for anything that draws a high current, because its internal resistance is lower so you can actually use up the energy stored. Alkaline tend to drop too low in voltage already when there is more than maybe 30% of energy left in them if you draw a lot of current.

False data . . . again

[Anonymous Coward]

Demand isn't on the decline because batteries are unnecessary, it's because millennials don't know how to use them. Mark my words, it'll bear itself out.

Re:Wait what? Online takes too long to arrive?

[Anonymous Coward]

If a contractor needs it, they need it today. Contractors buy as needed, and are used to just picking up more on the next supply run. Small things bought ahead of time just wind up lost behind the pile of extra parts in the truck or shop. But yea you just sit there on your couch with the 'easy order' button.

If a professional contractor doesn't have a supply of standard batteries, you should be finding a new contractor. Same with basic tools. The first thing I thought when reading that quote was what kind of contractor doesn't just periodically buy batteries in bulk?

Re:Article may be right, but this guy can't plan..

[Anonymous Coward]

He's a contractor and using flashlights that run on AAA batteries. He could use a flashlight that runs on the same batteries that are in his drill and other cordless tools but he's a moron.

He's just a moron for not buying AAA batteries in bulk and thus properly planning, that's all.

And you're a moron for assuming that someone who uses a drill and other cordless tools doesn't value a charged tool battery over a flashlight. I can use a fucking cell phone flashlight in a pinch. When your cordless drill battery is dead, so is your ability to work.

stupid consumer

[Anonymous Coward]

"... you don't have a choice" ...

Meaning, consumers without the intelligence to buy/recharge in advance are paying more. There's Nickel-Zinc 1.5 volt recharge-able, the newer 18650 (flat-top) recharge-able. We need more devices to use standard batteries. Every time I buy a new phone (rare event) I have to buy a new spare battery for it although I can use the same charger.

Batteries Prices Keep On Going and Going Up....

[elgatozorbas]

Batteries Prices Keep On Going and Going Up.... Demand Is Shrinking

Sounds reasonable.

my ex

[Anonymous Coward]

I never believed in Love Spells or Magics until i met this special spell caster when i went to Africa to Execute some business. He is really powerful. My husband divorce me with no reason for almost 4 years and i tried all i could to have him back cos i really love him so much but all my effort did not work out, we met at our early age at the college and we both have feelings for each other and we got married happily for 5 years with no kid and he woke up one morning and he told me he’s going on a divorce, i thought it was a joke and when he came back from work he tender to me a divorce letter and he packed all his belonging from my house and left. i ran mad and i tried all i could to have him back but all did not work out. I was lonely for almost 4 year, So when i told the spell caster what happened he said he will help me and he asked for his full name and his picture. I gave him that. At first i was skeptical but i gave it a try cos i have tried so many spell casters and there is no solution, so when he finished with the readings, he got back to me that he’s with a woman and that woman is the reason why he left me, The spell caster said he will help me with a spell that will surely bring him back, but i never believe all this he told me i will see a positive result within 3 days. 3 days later, he called me himself and came to me apologizing and he told me he will come back to me. I can't believe this, it was like a dream cos i never believe this will work out after trying many spell casters and there is no solution. The spell caster is so powerful and after that he helped me with a pregnancy spell and i got pregnant a month later, we are now happy been together again and with lovely kid. This spell caster has really changed my life and i will forever thankful to him, he has helped many of my friends too with similar problem too and they are happy and thankful to him. This man is indeed the most powerful spell caster i have ever experienced in life. Am Posting this to the Forum in case there is anyone who has similar problem and still looking for a way out.. you can reach him here: drosebuluspellhome@gmail.com CONTACT THIS POWERFUL SPELL CASTER TODAY VIA EMAIL: drosebuluspellhome@gmail.com or on +2348083221034

Re:Article may be right, but this guy can't plan..

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not really a fair comparison: those batteries (tools) are far heavier and bulkier than most current LED flashlights, especially the ones you can mount on your helmet or strap on your head to keep your hands free - very useful for a contractor or even the occasional home handyman like myself. I'd hate to try and wear the battery pack from my drill on my head... That's not to say they could not be made rechargeable, maybe just as a single 3.7V LiOn, with a separate recharge port on the same bulky tool battery recharger.

"increasingly obsolete"?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to whom? I use AA and AAA Eneloops all the time, in umpteen different devices - remote controls, alarm clocks, torches, cassette player (yes, seriously).

All the same

[Thelasko]

The sad part is. They are typically all the same battery. When I recently replaced my smoke detector batteries, I bought some EverReady batteries. I looked on the box, and it says EverReady is owned by Energizer. When I removed the old Rayovac battery from the smoke detector, it said "made in Malaysia" on the bottom, with a code. The EverReady had the same code and was also made in Malaysia.

I doubt this was a coincidence. I'm pretty sure they all come from the same factory. A friend of mine that used to work in the automotive battery business told me this was common.

Economic fallacies

[Anonymous Coward]

Demand is shrinking *yet* prices are going up?

Have you ever seen the prices on low-demand items? Less quantity means higher overheads per sale, so prices are higher.

Conversely, the Law of Demand says that as the price goes up, demand reduces.

Why would anyone be remotely surprised that shrinking demand leads to higher prices?

Hmm. Probably the same guy that thinks the term "batteries" describes only discardable AA and AAA cells.

Current vs voltage

[Anonymous Coward]

Electronic devices, including LED flashlights, tend to be *current* devices. If you put in a 1.5V battery, it draws the right amount of current to work. If you put in a 1.2V battery, it still draws the right amount of current to work. If you put in a 0.32V battery, it can't draw enough current and won't work.

On the other hand, if you have an essentially ohmic device, like an incandescent flashlight not electronically controlled, or a poorly designed electronic device, designed for 1.5V, it will not work well with a 1.2V battery.

Just economics

[Anonymous Coward]

Why has battery demand gone down? One simple reason: Smart phones have obsoleted dozens of previously separate product categories which were battery-driven. Eliminate these separate products and the demand for batteries drops.

The other factor: economies of scale which only exist at high volume. Drop the demand and volume drops, and you drop out of the scaling peak where costs are minimized so prices go up to maintain the same margins.

Not really surprising.

One word...

[iq145]

Rechargeables!

Re:Article may be right, but this guy can't plan..

[Anonymous Coward]

Contractor drill batteries are even more expensive than replacing AAAs... not the savings you think it is.