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Microsoft Built Its Own Custom Linux Kernel For Its New IoT Service (techcrunch.com)

At a small press event in San Francisco, Microsoft today announced the launch of a secure end-to-end IoT product that focuses on microcontroller-based devices -- the kind of devices that use tiny and relatively low-powered microcontrollers (MCUs) for basic control or connectivity features. TechCrunch reports: At the core of Azure Sphere is a new class of certified MCUs. As Microsoft president and chief legal officer Brad Smith stressed in today's announcement, Microsoft will license these new Azure Sphere chips for free, in hopes to jump-start the Azure Sphere ecosystem. Because it's hard to secure a device you can't update or get telemetry from, it's no surprise that these devices will feature built-in connectivity. And with that connectivity, these devices can also connect to the Azure Sphere Security Service in the cloud. For the first time ever, Microsoft is launching a custom Linux kernel and distribution: the Azure Sphere OS. It's an update to the kind of real-time operating systems that today's MCUs often use.

Why use Linux? "With Azure Sphere, Microsoft is addressing an entirely new class of IoT devices, the MCU," Rob Lefferts, Microsoft's partner director for Windows enterprise and security told me at the event. "Windows IoT runs on microprocessor units (MPUs) which have at least 100x the power of the MCU. The Microsoft-secured Linux kernel used in the Azure Sphere IoT OS is shared under an OSS license so that silicon partners can rapidly enable new silicon innovations." And those partners are also very comfortable with taking an open-source release and integrating that with their products. To get the process started, MediaTek is producing the first set of these new MCUs. These are low-powered, single-core ARM-A7 systems that run at 500MHz and include WiFi connectivity as well as a number of other I/O options.

123 of 199 comments (clear)

  1. Secure? LOLOL! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microcontrollers on the Internet, talking to your network via someone else's (Microsoft's) computer. Secure? Laughable.

    The only way I'd use most "IoT" devices is if they were able to talk directly to my devices, ideally using IPv6 and strong encryption. Let's roll out IPv6, have enough addresses for every device on Earth and maybe on the Moon too, and cut out the need for "cloud" middlemen spying on everything.

  2. Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by nyet · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So Microsoft released a custom kernel because the kernel maintainers wouldn't accept a second rate, poorly written patch set?

    How will they track upstream changes?

    1. Re:Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They won't! Any problems will be the fault of Linux, brilliant PR.

    2. Re:Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by Provocateur · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Which part of embrace, extend, exclamation point are they on? So when does the blamestorming begin? Places, everyone!

      --
      WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
    3. Re:Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      One can wonder, what do those infiniband and x86 hypervisor pathces do in that github you linked? In a IoT device neither of those technologies are used, but perhaps they are just there for giving MS a root access. How else could they secure the devices, if they did not collect all their data via telemetry.

    4. Re: Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is not forked from kernel repro. Just a bunch of patches.
      Main kernel is clearly 3.10 WTF!
      Opened one patch. Has no clear description in parhes, just basic header is there. Patch has 10000 insertions, clearly unmaintainable or a patch from a squashed internal tree. Needs to be split.
      Didn't look into code, these problems made me disinterested.

      Opened

    5. Re:Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by nyet · · Score: 1

      It's a github repo filled with patches, not branches.

      So yes, an unmaintainable SET of read-only, poorly conceived forks. If they were useful, well written, and followed contribution guidelines they could have easily been integrated into upstream. But they're not.

      Please tell me how on earth you or anyone else is going to be able to keep that up to date, let alone contribute?

    6. Re:Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What makes it shit? Where to start.
      First of all, it's just a git repo with patches in it. Who does that?
      Other than that: patches contain commented out dead code
      broken indentation // style comments instead of /* */
      Very descriptive git commit message for a 4000 line commit:
      hyperv: backport vPCI and SRIOV support for Linux 4.4.y
      yeah, not even a commit id being backported, or a description of what the fuck is being done.
      Code itself looks fine, but yeah it's a 4000 line commit, so who knows what's in there.

    7. Re:Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win

      You are there, at the highlighted part.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    8. Re:Yet another 3rd party half assed fork attempt by Big+Bipper · · Score: 1

      And yet Microsoft must have felt that this solution would be more secure than using their own kernel as a base. Think on that.

      --
      You live and learn, or you don't learn much.
  3. Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by Isomorphic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Microsoft-secured Linux kernel."

    I don't have the space to list all the things wrong with that phrase.

    1. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1, Troll

      I guess MS has created a bubble of true in the company who have no self-awareness or knowledge of the world outside its borders.

      There's a surprisingly large population of programmers who use .NET, carried Windows Phones, built web applications in Silverlight, and consider themselves 'aware' because they don't like IE. These people actually do live in a bubble, and like the integratedness of the Microsoft ecosystem, and can't see a world outside of it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or the bubble they live in is in the office where the boss loves Active Directory and win32 software and need something that talks and integrates well with their ecosystem.

      You know not everyone is blessed to be a bearded hipster making $180,000 a year in Silicon Valley and working from a coffee shop all day while working in their hip node.js frameworks talking to the NOSQL database for a company that doesn't make any money.

      In my world you support what the employers tells you to support or you're fired and replaced with someone who will. That is a fact.

      These days I would choose .NET over Java if I had to choose anyway as Oracle is more evil and proprietary than MS is ... if those were my two options.

    3. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Or the bubble they live in is in the office where the boss loves Active Directory and win32 software and need something that talks and integrates well with their ecosystem.

      If they actually chose the right product for the job, then they are not in a bubble. There are some people like that.

      You know not everyone is blessed to be a bearded hipster making $180,000 a year in Silicon Valley and working from a coffee shop all day while working in their hip node.js frameworks talking to the NOSQL database for a company that doesn't make any money.

      Heh, sounds like I hit a nerve. You didn't happen to own a Windows Phone, did you?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sigh. Yes a Nokia 820.

      Doing what I can being a SME on Office 365 and SCCM now to earn a living being envious I didn't stick with programming and Linux like I once was this past decade and being bitter about those who are luckier indeed! I think i am a little old now to start over and learn node.js and get a job at a .com.

    5. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 2

      The Sopris whitepaper mentions "renewable security" running some sort of secure fortress to prevent attacks such as Broadcom wifi from compromising the system as a whole.

      Are Mediatek and MS willing to publish the source to this inner firmware on github, along with flashing instructions? I wouldn't think so. So put on your tin-foil hat, remember the Intel management engine Minix scandal and be very afraid!

    6. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Node.js is dead. Pay attention to Web Assembly, that is the future.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

      Should I mention here that I voluntarily use C# and the .NET eco system and even use them in the browser by compiling to Javascript? Soon, Mono will have a WebAssembly back end, but for the moment, we're a bit far from that since WebAssembly doesn't really do garbage collection... yet.

    8. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Soon, Mono will have a WebAssembly back end, but for the moment, we're a bit far from that since WebAssembly doesn't really do garbage collection... yet.

      It also doesn't have access to the DOM. .NET is so far superior to Javascript for writing web apps (as are many other options) that when it becomes an option, node will be gone with PERL.

      Should I mention here that I voluntarily use C# and the .NET eco system

      That's not really helpful, everyone in a bubble is there voluntarily....otherwise it would be more apt to use jail as a metaphor.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ok... I'm going to bite.

      I honestly have no problems with other platforms... except maybe Java... and that's because I simply feel completely disconnected from the platform when I'm using Java. I spent 30 more wasted minutes of my life yesterday trying to make WebStart... well web start. But it seems that Oracle seems to think making WebStart work in Chrome is a waste of time.

      I have chosen C# and .NET for many reasons for my current project, I can honestly see no real downside to the platform. It is completely open, it's very often community driven. The tools are far more advanced than for any other platform. The performance isn't quite JavaScript (currently the fastest language out there for anything but static code) but I don't think it could ever be as slow as Python no matter how bad the .NET project messes up. .NET supports many different languages with integration between languages handled as a native feature of the .NET platform as opposed to the who SWIG lifestyle. It probably is the most versatile platform ever made for handling more than just one programming language. Sure, using the C ABI is pretty powerful too, but there has never been a standard for handling object oriented programming that way.

      I also use .NET because it's lovely for coding on Mac and Linux.

      I owned a Windows Phone for a while. It was pretty ok. I think it was extremely well made... with the exception of Microsoft making the stupid ass mistake of trying to force .NET down everyone's throat. No one wanted to rewrite their entire system to support Windows Phone. Even Apple didn't reach critical mass until they released ObjC++ allowing existing code bases to be ported to Mac pretty cleanly,

      I never considered Silverlight an option for anything. I did however write the original port of Flash to Qt for the Qt Embedded platform on Linux. I never liked Flash either. I would rather just extend the web standards to support the features I was missing. I also don't like the video tag. With WebAssembly and WebGL, I can't imagine why any company would ever choose to try and standardize a codec when they could have supported a TPM for web kind of thing and simply supply their own. I'm pretty sure Netflix, HBO, YouTube and others will lose hundreds of millions a year by using Flash or the HTML5 video.

      The only problem I could ever see to .NET was that people seem to dislike it because it's a Microsoft thing.

      I'm heading to Microsoft Build next month because I feel that .NET is worth investing in. I expect it to be around for a while. I expect it to be supported for a while. I expect it to be constantly modernized for quite a while. I expect it remain one of the most open platforms for a while (permissive licensed only, no so called free GPL code). I am hoping to learn a lot of stuff there.

      Oh.. my old bubble was the Qt bubble.

      I guess you're in the Python bubble?

    10. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by Quantum+gravity · · Score: 1

      You are aware of the OpenJDK that is under the GPL License but supported by Oracle Engineers?

      Se: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      There are many implementations including Oracles that are based on the OpenJDK.

      Se https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    11. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by gravewax · · Score: 1

      well they can't do any worse than the current crop of IoT based devices out there.

    12. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      I use .NET whenever I am able to, used to carry a Windows Mobile phone between 2003 and 2010 (not Windows Phone, though) and I actually develop for Linux for living.
      I am perfectly able to see the world outside of the bubble, I just don't like what I see.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    13. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of people who like .Net for good reasons, and it's a decent system. Let me guess, when you say "I develop on Linux for a living" are you doing Mono?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    14. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Nope, originally native C with some Lua scripts, rewritten in mostly C++11 some time ago. There is no room on the target hardware for Mono.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    15. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Well if you prefer .Net you probably have reasons.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

      Lua is a language without a platform. It's amazing technology and I use it (LuaJIT) in some of my projects. But you have to provide the platform for it. JavaScript is more of a platform at this time. It's a horrible language, but it is an excellent target to compile to.

      I hadn't really considered Lua as a suitable compilation target as again, it lacks the underlying platform. but now that you mention it, it could be interesting to look into.

      Thanks for bringing me down this track of thinking.

    17. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      It is easier to use than the STL, C# has far more syntactic sugar than C++ and the VS debugger is very nice.

      Back in the day when the application was written in C, I often used to prototype stuff in C#, debug it there and then manually translate it to C. It was not as efficient as developing directly in C, but it usually worked better afterwards and was - surprisingly - more readable (but more verbose) than the code developed directly in C.

      I am a mediocre programmer hence I prefer to use tools that make my life easier and my code better.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    18. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

      Let me start by asking. Have you always has problems in reading comprehension? Or is it that you simply choose to interpret what you read in a way that seems most convenient to you for a meaningless response? If it seemed strange to you, you may have tried reading again and asked yourself "Did he get it working or did he leave the comment there as the relevance of whether he got it working or not wasn't pertinent to the comment?"

      Either way, I'm guess you make a great party guest. I'm generally an asshole, but I can choose to be less of an asshole which I lack the skill for, or I could invite you to the party and people would think I'm less of an asshole in comparison.

      I'm not a C# person, though I do code C# and like it. It's a strong language... about the same as most. The platform is more interesting to me. This platform is what you called earlier "A bubble", so when I asked whether you're in the Python bubble, I was using it as a comparison of one platform vs. another. It appears, I should have been more clear as you seem to only interpret one sentence at a time without identifying the reference it was made it. Even if the reference was to your own wording. Of course, it's possible I didn't understand your reference to "Bubble" as if it weren't referring to the platform or infrastructure surrounding the language, your statements would make little sense.

      As for complaining I couldn't get simple stuff to work. Thank you for your concern, I made it work.

      Let me help you with reading comprehension. The reason for not clarifying this earlier was in reference to the issue that the platform (in this case Java) which has had this same problem with Web Start for many years didn't work out of the box as it should have. If you were to ship a tool to simplified launching a Java Web Start application from... well the Web, it seems reasonable to assume that the installation program for the platform would create the references itself. Of course, one could say that by using Chrome I made a crappy choice in browsers, but Chrome does have the majority market share at this time. Therefore, it is logical to assume that platforms which claim to be called Web Start should start smoothly from what many people see as being the most popular means of accessing the Web.

      Now to be honest, given your comments that I've read so far, I would suspect that you're even more full of shit than I am. As such, I'm not particularly concerned with whether you respect me or not. I probably wouldn't have bothered responding to you if I didn't think I could entertain myself by self aggrandizing in the process. You of course know what I'm talking about, otherwise you wouldn't have made a ridiculous comment bashing a platform you obviously don't understand if it weren't for the purpose of attempting to make yourself seem smarter by adopting and voicing an arrogant and uninformed perspective you believed to be popular given the typical audience you would cater to.

      The "I guess you're in the Python bubble?" comment was a friendly way of saying "Dude, we're all pretty much in the same ship one way or another" by proposing an apples to apples comparison.

      Should we discuss religion or politics next? I believe you and I can have a wonderful discussion on the topic. Should I chose the topic and your attack me for my opinions or would you prefer to choose the topic and I'll attack you instead?

    19. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Your only comparison is with C and C++?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    20. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Well, truth be told, Delphi will always be my favourite.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    21. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      You are indeed full of shit. That's ok, I like you anyway.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    22. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by fisted · · Score: 4, Funny

      that is the future

      For the next how many weeks?

    23. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      WebAssembly will be here for a long time. They're not rushing it out for that reason. Other platforms will be built on top of it, and that's where the churn will be, but WebAssembly will remain like x86 has.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    24. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I wish there was a good cross platform GUI framework for .NET. Like WPF but works well on multiple platforms.

      Can't see it happening though, because every new GUI is obsessed with being usable on both desktop and touch interfaces and so ends up being shit.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    25. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by halivar · · Score: 1

      Heretic.

    26. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by halivar · · Score: 1

      Delphi was objectively the best product Borland ever made. I made the switch to C# simply because Anders Hejlberg was involved. Was not disappointed.

    27. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Xamarin.Forms: It has existed for years and is nearing maturity. It is definitely ready for production at this point.

      Desktop non-touch enabled interfaces are dead though it is possible to build logic in that morphs the interface to adapt better to large format displays.

      Xamarin.Forms is based on .NET C#. There has been work to unify or consolidate the XAML dialects but Xamarin.Forms is in so deep I think it will be the standard going forward.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    28. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      It also doesn't have access to the DOM.

      False. There isn't an easy-to-use set of built-in bridges, but emscripten can help you with that. Or you can roll your own. I did, it's not hard once you understand what WebAssembly is.

      .NET is so far superior to Javascript for writing web apps (as are many other options) that when it becomes an option, node will be gone with PERL.

      This.. indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the topic at hand.
      You're mixing up your front-end and back-ends.

    29. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I'm going to investigate that, thanks.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    30. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      False. There isn't an easy-to-use set of built-in bridges, but emscripten can help you with that. Or you can roll your own. I did, it's not hard once you understand what WebAssembly is.

      That's good to know.

      You're mixing up your front-end and back-ends.

      No, you're a moron. To be more precise and less inflammatory, you misunderstood my argument, mainly because I didn't spell it out explicitly. Here you go:

      1) Why do people use Javascript on the backend? Because it is easy for people who only know Javascript to use. It's not because Javascript is a good language. There is some synergy gained by using the same language on the frontend and backend.
      2) When there are better options in the front end, then people will start using those, instead of Javascript. Then the only reason to use Javascript on the backend will disappear.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    31. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      It also doesn't have access to the DOM. .NET is so far superior to Javascript for writing web apps (as are many other options) that when it becomes an option, node will be gone with PERL.

      I think it has less to do with me being a moron and more to do with your poor grasp of the language we're conversing in.
      Read that sentence until you understand.

    32. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Fuck em. After the shit they pulled with Android and now any reference clean design is copyrightable even if it doesn't contain a single string of code from the original means Microsoft can sue the Wine Project. Bell Labs and can sue Gnu for gcc, etc.

      This is very dangerous and if MS still had balmer you bet they would be suing Wine and ReactOS out of existence.

      Oracle is far worse after this. OpenJDK can be revoked anytime now since Oracle claims an open clean room implementation is owned if it is based off the original. ... wasn't this the SCO groups original argument agaisn't Linux? If Oracle won 10 years ago SCO would own Linux as well under this interpretation.

    33. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Heh, you don't have an actual point so you change the topic. Indeed you are not a moron.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    34. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      You have again failed basic comprehension of the English language.
      I initiated conversation to let you know that you were wrong about something, and now you're discounting my retort to your ad hominem as a topic change.
      How do people like you survive?

    35. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I survive by being smarter than you. Please say something to at least acknowledge you have read my most recent exposition of my point, you unfallowed mouth breather.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    36. Re:Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by vandamme · · Score: 1

      Microsoft + Linux = Microsux?

    37. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      I survive by being smarter than you.

      Unlikely. You know what they say- confidence is quiet. You seem to overestimate your knowledge in just about everything you post in... so again, how do people like you survive? Bouncing between short-term mid-income programming gigs? Honest question.

      Please say something to at least acknowledge you have read my most recent exposition of my point

      I did read it... Are you that badly in need of affirmation? There were multiple topics in play, I chose to ignore the ones that were redundant reiterations of your flawed initial idea.

      you unfallowed mouth breather.

      Ah yes, more ad hominem. Also the sign of a "smart" person.
      You remind me of Trump talking about how his IQ is higher than Rex Tillerson's. It's like, the highest.
      You aren't a Trump voter, perchance?

    38. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      You claim to have read my clear and lucid exposition of the point, and yet you haven't responded or even recapitulated the point. You're high. I'll repeat it again: JavaScript will stop being used on the back end in a few years. The primary reason for using it will be gone.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    39. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      No, Javascript will not stop being used on the back-end in a few years because of the advent of WebAssembly. It didn't disappear with asm.js, either.
      It doesn't even make sense for it to, frankly. Node.js is very well suited for the model in which it is used. It isn't just the language that is the same. You're ignorant of the topics at play, as I originally asserted, and that's ok. It's not like I don't do this professionally, or anything. But you're entitled to your rather stupid opinion. Carry on, Internet Smart Guy. ;)

    40. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      So in your opinion, JavaScript is very well suited for back end development? Are you going to try to give support for that assertion or are you just going to leave it there like the drooling baboon you are?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    41. Re: Microsoft-secured Linux kernel by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      It's a language. Are you really going to argue that a language affects its validity as a client or server platform? I think you might just be a shitty programmer. That actually would explain most of this conversation.

  4. How long will the battery last. by MountainLogic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seriously, an A7 and Linux for an IoT thermostat or glass break sensor? Linux is wonderful and all for servers and even little routers, but real IoT devices live on a dirt cheap processor in a few kbytes, not Mbytes or GBytes and last for a year on a single battery. FreeRTOS that just received support from Amazon is a likely solution for IoT. A survey by EE Times suggests that new embedded projects are adopting FreeRTOS and a slightly higher rate for new products than even Linux (page 63) while embedded linux still has a small lead for existing projects. I'll bet this pig ships will mono and C# built into it and that is why they pushing linux.

    1. Re:How long will the battery last. by anon+mouse-cow-aard · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It depends on the kind of software you want to run. The thing being described is like a raspberrypi zero, although the zero is twice the clock, so my guess would be four times the power? power consumption is something like:

      https://www.jeffgeerling.com/b...

      If you really need lowest power consumption, then something like freeRTOS makes a lot of sense. So yeah, it will not last for days on a coin-cell battery. But for applications where a power is not a constraint (inside an appliance, a wall wart, a solar cell, or some other kind of powered box) with a 5$ part you can run normal linux software on it, and it consumes about 200ma while tranceiving wifi. If this thing is running @ 500MHz, it could be only 50 ma.

      tradeoff is relatively normal software environment in linux vs. hyper specialized rare coders and 1% of the application ecosystems available for RTOS.

    2. Re:How long will the battery last. by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What battery?

      The promotional video shows a smart fridge.

    3. Re:How long will the battery last. by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but real IoT devices live on a dirt cheap processor in a few kbytes, not Mbytes or GBytes and last for a year on a single battery.

      Not if they are wifi-connected. That sucks power. Also, running a full TCP/IP stack with all the bells and whistles isn't going to work very well on a few kB. Sure, you can cram something in there that will work to some degree, but how is it going to withstand a well engineered attack for instance ?

    4. Re:How long will the battery last. by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      How well is any piece of home hardware sitting on your local network going to withstand a "well-engineered attack". Not very well at all, that's now. If someone decided they wanted to knock you off the internet, and they happened to know your home router's public IP, they could do so without any difficulty. A networked home device does not need to withstand anything of that sort, anymore than your front door does, especially if it only communicates with other devices on your LAN, like those colour changing light bulbs do.

    5. Re:How long will the battery last. by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      How well is any piece of home hardware sitting on your local network going to withstand a "well-engineered attack".

      If it runs the same linux kernel and internet services that people run on their public network, it's going to be comparatively hard to attack (DoS attacks excluded, of course).

      A networked home device does not need to withstand anything of that sort

      That depends on how it is employed. Some IoT devices run as WiFi AP, for instance. Others may have open ports to the outside world. Or maybe they are used on a company network, and you don't want your employees to have any kind of unauthorized access.

    6. Re:How long will the battery last. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      For most sensors it makes more sense to use a low power radio network such a LoRa, rather than WiFi. Better ranger, lower power.

      A LoRa window sensor could easily run off a small solar cell, with super capacitor or small lithium cell for storage. One transmission every 15 minutes +/- 1 minute at random to avoid collisions, which allows the receiver to notice when the sensor has failed. One extra transmission when the window is opened or closed.

      Doesn't even need RX capability.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:How long will the battery last. by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Yes, if all you need is a simple and slow sensor, then there are low-power options available. This device is targeted for more higher-end IoT applications.

    8. Re:How long will the battery last. by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

      Seriously, an A7 and Linux for an IoT thermostat or glass break sensor? Linux is wonderful and all for servers and even little routers, but real IoT devices live on a dirt cheap processor in a few kbytes, not Mbytes or GBytes and last for a year on a single battery. FreeRTOS that just received support from Amazon is a likely solution for IoT. A survey by EE Times suggests that new embedded projects are adopting FreeRTOS and a slightly higher rate for new products than even Linux (page 63) while embedded linux still has a small lead for existing projects. I'll bet this pig ships will mono and C# built into it and that is why they pushing linux.

      FreeRTOS's best feature is the name. It's a great name that almost sells itself. Once you get past the name things go downhill. Micrium is probably the best documented since it has a nice big book for just about every flavor of microcontroller under the sun. From what I understand if you use a Silicon Labs MCU it's free too.

    9. Re:How long will the battery last. by DCFusor · · Score: 1
      Wifi need not be on all the time - or used at all. It exposes one to all kinds of well known attacks and makes others possible. Something like LORA (a shorter range version) talking to a hub that only then connects to the internet makes a hell of a lot more sense, costs less, has better security due to a smaller attack surface, and what little extra you get from obscurity (not much, I know - but not the zero of well known wifi frequencies and protocols either).
      I have about 20 nodes on my _LAN_ of things - yep, no external internet required at all, really, as I don't have the lifestyle to need it, or a robot that can mind my woodstove on the homestead, even though there's plenty else automated. The way I see it, IoT is just a way to make it easier to spy, make botnets and insert the vendor in the middle to collect money from either your data or a straight subscription charge. Of course, at any time they can go out of business, simply refuse to support your stuff anymore, or raise the rent - TO MAKE YOUR OWN HOUSE WORK!
      .

      I'm not that sort of moron, thanks.
      You need to eat the peas of actual analysis of real world situations and the usually ignored implications thereof.

      --
      Why guess when you can know? Measure!
    10. Re:How long will the battery last. by MountainLogic · · Score: 1

      Indeed, uCos has always seemed interesting, I've just never had a an opportunity to use.it. There are several great RTOS' out there that can live on a real low power embedded processor.

    11. Re:How long will the battery last. by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      If it runs the same linux kernel and internet services that people run on their public network, it's going to be comparatively hard to attack (DoS attacks excluded, of course).

      A bold claim. Excluding DoS seems like a bit of a baseless get-out clause. Maybe it'll be discovered that by mounting a DoS attack, differences in timing of responses will reveal what's running on the machine, and by crafting requests to other services at the same time, educated guesses as to the contents of secret key might be able to reduce the search space sufficiently to break into your network.

      Or maybe it'll just turn out to be some buffer overflow bug in some crappy piece of code written in the world's most dangerous programming language, which just happens also to be the one that Linux is written in.

    12. Re:How long will the battery last. by vandamme · · Score: 1

      My fridge is smart enough already. It keeps my food cold.

  5. Google: Linux results provided by M$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    great, juuuuuuuust great.

    now when I need to search for a random Linux issue it's going to be mixed up with their shit. fuck this.

  6. Why not one for the BSDs? by williamyf · · Score: 1

    Is just a curiosity. No insinuation of any ulterior motives or evildoing whatsoever. Since BSD (and MIT and Apache) licenses are more Microsoft's cup of tea.

    I get it that Linux has more driver support for hardware, but then again, this is Microsoft's semi-custom silicon, so they have a modicum of control over the hardware specs and therefore, the drivers.

    Is something inherent in the Linux kernel (like the near-real-time patches)? Perhaps better support for containers? More familiarity with the code-base from MS developers? The availability of MS Cross-development tools for Linux?

    Whatever the rationale was, I'd love to know it...

    They will make a pretty penny selling Azure cloud services (or selling azure datacenter licenses for companies which want/have to roll their own cloud).

    --
    *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
    1. Re:Why not one for the BSDs? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      Azure already has FreeBSD. Infact, I used FreeBSD before I started using Linux on Hyper-V from my Windows 8.1 box due to the excellent guest tools donated by Microsoft from the Azure team. PfSense uses them too to set up my virtual routers in my hyper-V lab at home.

      The reason they used Linux is because everyone else uses Linux. Linux is most understood by those who write such software so the knowledge base is strongest and familiarity.

      Funny, this was the argument for Windows 20 years ago ironically. BSD never took off at the same level and only Microsoft knows the Windows kernel.

  7. Microsoft's Position by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Linux is worse than cancer"

        -- Steve Ballmer

    1. Re:Microsoft's Position by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems that Microsoft has moved on since those days. It's a pity that so many on /. can't do the same and are fixated with how things were 20 years ago.

    2. Re: Microsoft's Position by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except they haven't moved on. ExFAT etc. The new Windows Admin Centre 'web' interface only fully works with Edge. Etc. Same old.

    3. Re: Microsoft's Position by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      its a locally based server admin tool, why the fuck would they bother writing it for anything but what they know is installed locally.

      If the assertion is that microsoft has changed and adopted standards, there should be some evidence, like use of standards. They haven't, which is why there isn't.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Microsoft's Position by rastos1 · · Score: 1

      And TFA proves it. Linux creeps in everywhere. I gets in small and starts spreading wide, popping up in many forms, at unexpected places and once there, it is very difficult do dislodge. The only difference is that it does not result in the death of the host.

    5. Re:Microsoft's Position by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Let this be a lesson as to why you shouldn't commit evil acts and retard the growth of computing for your personal profit. The reputation sticks around for decades afterwards.

      Microsoft made their bed. They can lie in it. They knew exactly how evil they were being with their "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" philosophy, and they were OK with that. Let them savor the bad reputation that comes with that choice. Why do people feel the need to play the "poor old Microsoft, why won't you quit picking on them" game on Slashdot?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re: Microsoft's Position by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wrong. From the WAC FAQ (that's fun to say out loud!): It's tested and supported on both Edge and Chrome. It should therefore work on any browser that supports whatever standards those two browsers commonly support, it's just not tested on them.

    7. Re:Microsoft's Position by Subm · · Score: 1

      We haven't gotten past Developers developers developers developers! either!

      I don't see the problem.

    8. Re: Microsoft's Position by Merk42 · · Score: 1

      You mean like web standards? Where Edge continues to make strides and already ranks better than Safari?

    9. Re: Microsoft's Position by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You mean like web standards? Where Edge continues to make strides and already ranks better than Safari?

      So if Edge is standards-compliant, and they use Edge, why can't you use any other browser?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re: Microsoft's Position by Merk42 · · Score: 1

      You mean like web standards? Where Edge continues to make strides and already ranks better than Safari?

      So if Edge is standards-compliant, and they use Edge, why can't you use any other browser?

      For Windows Admin Center? You can

  8. Linux has won! by PineHall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft producing a Linux OS that it will distribute and maintain is amazing! Microsoft has been infected with the Linux cancer. Linux world domination?

    1. Re:Linux has won! by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2

      So that was what Trump was talking about when he tweeted "Mission Accomplished".

    2. Re:Linux has won! by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      No, it's not that at all. This is just another step in Microsoft's annexation of Linux. Their ultimate goal is to have complete control over Linux. Whether that will mean Linux gets killed off as a standalone OS or not, I'm not sure about, but I'm certain that Microsoft wants to neutralize the threat that Linux poses to the dominance of Windows and Microsoft.

    3. Re:Linux has won! by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1
      Yeah well what I've seen progressively happening over the last several years is Microsoft infiltrating the Linux community and Linux development with it's own paid employees, and now they have 'linux' that runs under Windows 10?

      Silly Linux people, you don't need to boot a whole OS just to use Linux, see, it runs inside Windows 10 now!

      Now they write their own kernel; is it proprietary, by the way? I think you're sticking your head in the sand and don't want to see what I'm seeing. Microsoft has made it very plain that they want to be the only OS on the planet, and history has shown us that they don't really care how dirty they have to get to do what they want.

      Or are you just a Microsoft shill, trying to deflect the whole issue?

  9. Re:Secure? LOLOL! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't buy this kind of junk if it were free.

  10. I'm confused. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is this the "Embrace" or "Extend" step in the sequence?

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:I'm confused. by swillden · · Score: 1

      Is this the "Embrace" or "Extend" step in the sequence?

      It's a new step: Capitulate (sorry, can't think of a synonym that starts with 'e'). Microsoft spent many years and huge amounts of money trying to kill Linux, but failed because Linux doesn't have a single source, because Microsoft's old tactics can't beat "free", and because Microsoft just doesn't have the clout they used to, after they missed their chance to control first the web and then the mobile revolutions. They're recognizing that they're about to miss the IoT boat as well.

      So, they've decided that if you can't beat 'em, you'd better join 'em or risk getting left behind. Again. And this can't be a temporary head-fake of a join, either, because they're doing open source software on easily-licensable hardware. They will control the server-side (which is where they hope to make money), but if it works well others will be able to do it, too. Indeed, others already *are* doing similar things. The only way MS will be able to compete is fairly, by offering a better service at a better price.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:I'm confused. by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Is this the "Embrace" or "Extend" step in the sequence?

      How does that apply to open source, free software like we're discussing here?

  11. Has MS ever heard of raspberry pi? by anon+mouse-cow-aard · · Score: 2
    uh... from the fine article: "To get the process started, MediaTek is producing the first set of these new MCUs. These are low-powered, single-core ARM-A7 systems that run at 500MHz and include WiFi connectivity as well as a number of other I/O options." so... pretty much exactly the specs of the original raspberry pi. Why didn't they just use pi's and raspbian? What did they do a custom kernel for? I've used the original pi as a dual-stack ipv4 & v6 router with iptables firewall. It runs any security stack you want... What did they actually need to build? I expect whatever it was could just easily have been built as a debian application package (like avahi say, or dhcpd, or apache) rather than into the kernel. The project does not make much sense with the information given.

    Maybe they're doing some extra power management?

    1. Re:Has MS ever heard of raspberry pi? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      The articles link a whitepaper of 7 security features they wanted, on die. The idea is there's a hidden Cortex-M4F running firmware to control a regular Cortex-A7 with a couple of additional user-programmable Cortex-M4F thrown in.

      It's all mumbo-jumbo to me but presumably an off the shelf rPI wouldn't support that *in silicon*, hence the custom design.

    2. Re:Has MS ever heard of raspberry pi? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      include WiFi connectivity as well as a number of other I/O options." so... pretty much exactly the specs of the original raspberry pi.

      Yes, pretty much exactly, except for the part where the raspberry pi has no WiFi (or even Ethernet)

    3. Re:Has MS ever heard of raspberry pi? by anon+mouse-cow-aard · · Score: 1

      they want to bring the benefits of Intel Management Engine and trusted computing to ARM? sounds lovely...

    4. Re:Has MS ever heard of raspberry pi? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      "the raspberry HAS wifi, and ethernet - and bluetooth too!"

      Not native in the SoC, though. It uses an external SDIO/WiFi module and USB/Ethernet adapter.

    5. Re: Has MS ever heard of raspberry pi? by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      Not sure if you were serious or just didn't know. Microsoft sells rPi's in their store along with an SD loaded with some sort of Windows IoT development image. One of my first rPi's were from Microsoft below their cost.

  12. Custom IoT kernel? Why? by mveloso · · Score: 2

    The only reason I can think of to use your own kernel fork is because you can power optimize it.

    For example, if you know your device only checks in every second and you only need .5 second resolution for your sensor then you can put your system to sleep and use an interrupt line attached to your sensor to wake everything up. Then you can run as much CPU as you need to fire up the radio, send the packet, and shut off.

    At that point you can also make your system 'almost realtime' by using the transmission window to receive data/commands/etc.

    Do you really need something running at 500 mhz? I mean damn, how much stuff you do expect to come off the wire?

    1. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Microsoft developers had so much fun implementing WSL.

      Take it a step further and you have Linux Subsystem for Windows Subsystem for Linux (LSWSL), pronounced Lasso Weasel - the acronym is a palindrome. It basically amounts to Windows 10 running inside a bare metal Linux hyper-visor, with WSL running atop that.

      Currently WSL operates by the Windows 10 (NT) kernel emulating Linux syscalls. Linux -> Win. This obviously creates complexity in the Windows environment, translating paradigms and so forth. So such a new environment would initially perform Linux -> Win -> Linux but at some point you'd hope to eliminate the Windows translation layer, viz Linux -> Linux.

    2. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      My head just exploded.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    3. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by gravewax · · Score: 1

      Its a custom Kernel as it is also for custom chips they are producing.

    4. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The only reason I can think of to use your own kernel fork is because you can power optimize it.

      That's not a legitimate reason. If some architecture benefits from additional power optimizations, those ought to be contributed to the Linux kernel so that everyone can benefit from them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by swillden · · Score: 1

      The only reason I can think of to use your own kernel fork is because you can power optimize it.

      That's not a legitimate reason. If some architecture benefits from additional power optimizations, those ought to be contributed to the Linux kernel so that everyone can benefit from them.

      GPL FTW. They'll have to distribute source, so everyone that really wants their extensions will be able to get them. Also, in the long run it's far cheaper and easier to upstream your Linux changes than to deal with revising them every time the upstream code changes. If Microsoft hasn't figured this out, they will.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by jrumney · · Score: 1

      The only reason I can think of is step 2 in the old embrace, extend, extinguish strategy. Does anyone really believe that Microsoft has changed its stripes over the years?

    7. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      GPL FTW. They'll have to distribute source, so everyone that really wants their extensions will be able to get them. Also, in the long run it's far cheaper and easier to upstream your Linux changes than to deal with revising them every time the upstream code changes. If Microsoft hasn't figured this out, they will.

      We'll see. If they don't make the patches of sufficient quality for inclusion, then either someone else has to do the work (at least that's possible!) or that just never happens.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by gtall · · Score: 1

      There is one poster up above who believes that MS has changed its stripes, but not the rest of us.

    9. Re:Custom IoT kernel? Why? by swillden · · Score: 1

      GPL FTW. They'll have to distribute source, so everyone that really wants their extensions will be able to get them. Also, in the long run it's far cheaper and easier to upstream your Linux changes than to deal with revising them every time the upstream code changes. If Microsoft hasn't figured this out, they will.

      We'll see. If they don't make the patches of sufficient quality for inclusion, then either someone else has to do the work (at least that's possible!) or that just never happens.

      If it doesn't happen, they'll have to port their patches to every new kernel release. That becomes a large burden. Most people decide it's easier to do whatever needs to be done to make the kernel maintainers happy so they can upstream.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  13. Re:Secure? LOLOL! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

    I recall towards the end of the days when directv CAMs were easy to hack to get free TV, some guy in a major forum of the time (don't recall which one) was expressing anger at directv so much that he said he would never pay for directv, and then later stressed that he wouldn't even take it if it was free. The irony wasn't lost that the mere fact that he was there to begin with was to get directv's service for free.

  14. Scorpion on the frog's back, crossing the river. by MrKaos · · Score: 2

    After kicking all of the other kids out of it's sandbox and not letting them play all the other kids got together and built their own sandbox. Now Microsoft want to play in their sandbox because all the other kids are having such a good time. I wonder how long it will take for Microsoft to kick all the other kids out of the sandbox this time?

    And the morale to the story:

    Halfway across the river the scorpion stung the frog and as they were drowning the frog said "Why???" to which the scorpion replied "It's in my nature".

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  15. Mind-share and community, I'd bet by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Linux is much, much more well-known than any of the BSDs. Each has their own *technical* merits, but from a *business* perspective, they probably want to sell something that many people will want. Far more people have a favorable view of Linux than the total number of people who have *heard* of the BSDs.

  16. Moved on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    > It seems that Microsoft has moved on since those days.

    It seems that their propaganda is working on you.

    C'mon. Think. Think a bit harder. Microsoft's business model hinges on making their customers dependent. Free software, OTOH, thrives on making customers/users free.

    This doesn't mix well.

  17. 2002 Business Case for Microsoft:Green envy &s by NZheretic · · Score: 3, Informative
  18. BSOD, not BSDs by stooo · · Score: 1

    MS does BSODs, not BSDs

    --
    aaaaaaa
  19. Re:Secure? LOLOL! by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

    No, you're wrong.

    In real life, encryption software is extremely complex, and flaws in complex shipped software are found regularly. Your quote is irrelevant, because error-free software of any meaningful complexity does not exist, and so if you ship software that you can't update, a flaw in it will be found eventually, and whatever encryption it contains will be broken.

  20. Re: Secure? LOLOL! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    Oh, I'm sorry, you write shitty code and now you are trying to justify the pile of shit that it is. Let me guess, your bug tracker has an ever increasing bug count, and you have some excuse for that too? If you even have a bug tracker.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  21. Now build a desktop & an internet browser for. by DivineKnight · · Score: 1

    Now build a desktop & a browser for Windows IoT...and a native C# compiler (IDE)...and we will enjoy it on the RPi.

  22. Re:Secure? LOLOL! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Nobody who knows anything about security would allow anything like this near his network. Let alone spend money on it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  23. Re:Now build a desktop & an internet browser f by gtall · · Score: 1

    Ah...no....now go wash your mouth out with soap.

  24. Too bloated for MCU by Larry_Dillon · · Score: 1

    "Windows IoT runs on microprocessor units (MPUs) which have at least 100x the power of the MCU.

    Read: We're using Linux because even the lightest version of Windows if far too bloated to run on MCU devices.

    --
    Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
  25. Embrace, extend, extinguish by edgedmurasame · · Score: 1

    Given that Microsoft and Mediatek are partners, I'm not sure this will be as open as it is led to be.

    --
    "Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
  26. ms and Linux by NikeHerc · · Score: 1

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

    (By Eric Raymond, speaking of open source, and quoting Gandhi.)

    --
    Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
  27. Re: Secure? LOLOL! by Brockmire · · Score: 1

    He could have been there for an Echostar hack.

  28. Re: Secure? LOLOL! by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

    I was wondering whether or not you'd be interested in applying for a job here? All of the developers we have, and they number in the hundreds, appear unable to write code without also introducing bugs, and that's despite the fact that we review alot of it, and have unit and automated tests.

    We've spent alot of time trying to understand exactly why human beings, when tasked with writing a series of instructions for unthinking machines, appear incapable of doing so without doing so wrongly. Worse, they don't appear to be able to predict a future in which previously unimagined software flaws are taken advantage of. Some of them didn't even foresee the cache-based attacks that leak kernel memory. Honestly, if I had my way, I'd fire the lot of them, and just get you to write everything. We'd probably have to pay you their combined salary anyway, since you never write bugs, making you an extremely valuable human being.

    Or, alternatively, you're just a troll/dickhead. It's difficult to tell from your comments.

    Of course we don't have a bug tracker, we just write them down on this piece of paper I have here. It's just under this cup, next to the toy car.

  29. Re: Secure? LOLOL! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    Of course we don't have a bug tracker, we just write them down on this piece of paper I have here.

    And it has an ever increasing in the bug count. That's exactly why I don't want to work there.

    Look, here is a procedure for you to get things cleaned up. You can choose to ignore it but that is your choice. Three steps:

    1) Allocate time to fix new bugs as soon as they are reported.
    2) Over time, empty the bug tracker until the bug count hits zero.
    3) The focus on bugs will improve your skill and programming speed, bugs will be rarer and rarer.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  30. Re: Secure? LOLOL! by Bengie · · Score: 1

    Definitely trolling. No one writes perfect code, but I do see magnitudes difference among different people in both bugs per LOC and performance. Noticing bugs is the first battle. Too many times to count, I've had to dig into someone code for one reason or another, and I many times will find several bugs, many times critical. And many times this code has gone through several rounds of QA and code review over several months. Maybe I'm not the best to compare against, my co-worker says I have a super human attention to detail.

    I've got 8 year old code that is still running in production that I wrote several months after graduation when I got my first job and I had 2 weeks of programming experience. It was my first project in the real world. I was to fix some bugs that several senior programming could not fix over several months. I re-wrote the entire ~5kloc program in ~2kloc, made it multi-threaded and wrote my own lock free data structures and algorithms. Over the past 8 years, only 2 bugs have ever been reported, both related to the threading, and both fixed without debugging.

    Then there's some other programmers that have been programming for 10+ years and manage to write a simple 200loc application that manages to have 20+ bugs discovered over several months in prod, runs slowly, and somehow manages to gobble memory.

    I rarely use the debugger. On numerous occasions, I've had co-workers come to me after days of debugging and a group of people trying to figure it out, and all I do is ask questions like what is responsible for X feature, show me the code so we can see what it guarantees, what guarantees do we have about the data inputs, etc. And just reading the code, walking through it with the other programmers, not only will I find the bug without ever running the code, but many times they find they independently notice the bug before I get to say anything. I know they're capable, seeing that they many times come to the same conclusions as me when presented with the same data, but for whatever reason they don't ask the questions I ask. They look at their code and say "what could it be", while I look at the code and say "what can't it be".

    I look for guarantees in code and I use those guarantees to narrow it down. Single point of responsibly is another aspect that I heavily rely upon. If I can logically assert the state has certain guarantees at certain points in the code, there is only so many places for the bug, or any bug for that matter, to hide.

  31. Re:Sure by eneville · · Score: 1

    They didn't have to screw the kernel, their waagent is a hideous piece of crap with can do that in userspace. When I glanced through it a while back it was doing VERY stupid things like creating a swap file with perm mode 666. Yes. I think this was one of the commits https://github.com/Azure/WALin... - if not look through the history. How stuff like that gets out the door I have no idea. What worries me is that within MS they have project ideas, but not the Unix Sysadmin skills to know what they're doing is wrong, then blaming the community for not submitting PRs to fix their issues. Yes, open source works though that for GPL ideas, but at the same time I feel MS are abusing it somewhat as free labour.