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North Korea's Leader Kim Jong-un Says He'll Give Up Weapons if US Promises Not to Invade (nytimes.com)
Several readers have shared a report: North Korea's leader, Kim Jong-un, told President Moon Jae-in of South Korea when they met that he would abandon his nuclear weapons if the United States would agree to formally end the Korean War and promise that it would not invade his country, a South Korean government spokesman said Sunday. In a faith-building gesture ahead of a summit meeting with President Trump, Mr. Kim also said he would invite experts and journalists from South Korea and the United States to watch the shutdown next month of his country's only known underground nuclear test site.
The comments by Mr. Kim were made on Friday when the leaders of the two Koreas met at Panmunjom, a village on their shared border, the spokesman, Yoon Young-chan, said on Sunday, providing additional details of the meeting. "I know the Americans are inherently disposed against us, but when they talk with us, they will see that I am not the kind of person who would shoot nuclear weapons to the south, over the Pacific or at the United States," Mr. Kim told Mr. Moon, according to Mr. Yoon's account of the meeting. It was another dramatically conciliatory statement by Mr. Kim, whose country threatened to do exactly those things during the height of nuclear tensions last year.
The comments by Mr. Kim were made on Friday when the leaders of the two Koreas met at Panmunjom, a village on their shared border, the spokesman, Yoon Young-chan, said on Sunday, providing additional details of the meeting. "I know the Americans are inherently disposed against us, but when they talk with us, they will see that I am not the kind of person who would shoot nuclear weapons to the south, over the Pacific or at the United States," Mr. Kim told Mr. Moon, according to Mr. Yoon's account of the meeting. It was another dramatically conciliatory statement by Mr. Kim, whose country threatened to do exactly those things during the height of nuclear tensions last year.
Yea, sure, we promise.
Just make sure they never find oil in NK and you'll be safe, Mr Kim.
"Promising" means withdrawing U.S troops from South Korea and removing South Korea and Japan from the U.S nuclear umbrella. Exactly what NK has been asking for all along
The vendetta against Gaddafi after he had capitulated to giving up his nuclear weapons program is the primary reason NK hasn't given up its weapons program.
It will probably take the withdrawl of US forces from SK and aid to NK, and the formal acknowledgment of the continuation of the current NK regime in order to denuclearize NK. Even then, I wouldn't be certain they don't retain an actual nuke or two secretly now that they have them. This still probably won't address the effectively bigger threat of all of the NK artillery pointed at SK.
Instead of ignoring mostly-Chinese companies that do business with North Korea (as Presidents past have done), Trump is actually going after them:
US unveils largest sanctions yet on ships, companies trading with North Korea
The illegal foreign trade that Kim Jong-un uses to keep his army loyal is being threatened if not actually cut off. And he's squirming. Finally.
If a (D) President had accepted a invitation from NK, Conservatives would be calling it High Treason, but a (R) can do no wrong
Just how badly *did* they screw up their nuclear test site? I mean - this about face is looking a bit too desperate. These guys need to bluff a little better (or did they also keep all their newly minted nuclear weapons at the same site and lost them too?)
But skeptics warned that North Korea previously made similar pledges of denuclearization on numerous occasions, with little or no intention of abiding by them. Mr. Kim’s friendly gestures, they said, could turn out to be nothing more than empty promises aimed at lifting sanctions on his isolated country.
The sanctions shouldn't lifted until it's been verified to be fully denuclearized. That would reduce that two year estimate.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
You are in such a backwards world. Explain more what "would" happen, since pretty much you are just saying what the biggest dick thing to do would be and saying conservatives would do it. What are saying is hate mongering.
This of course has nothing to do with the fact the mountain they were testing their nukes under collapsed, and China is pissed that the radioactivity is liable to head their way.
It's: My guy can do no wrong. And the other side's guy is Hitler/Stalin/$Satan_Figure.
If something good happens while my guy is in office it's totally his doing. If something good happens while the other side's guy is in office it's totally due to luck/the previous guy.
Etc, Etc, lather rinse repeat.
And my side is virtuous unlike the immoral other side that has mostly the same human in_group/out_group motivations.
That the North Koreans will keep their word. I don't have much expectation of Kim Jong Un but it appears that he may be afraid of Trump or at least cannot predict what Trump will do if he rattles his saber much longer. Strength through superior firepower.
Faith: Belief in Truth. Superstition: Belief in Falsehood.
We'll still figure out how to guarantee President Trump gets zero credit for this foreign policy win!
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
We'll not invade you. We'll just bomb you into the stone age!
If you think Clinton would have done any better then there's only one chump here.
"Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as non-nuclear-weapon State,
Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of[..]"
The Russian Federation,[...] reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, [...], to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine
The Russian Federation, [...] reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine[...]
The Russian Federation [...] reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine [...], to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
etc, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Remember how badly America lost its shit after 911? Now imagine what this place would be like if a hostile foreign power leveled every American city in an illegal war, and since the 90's had been conducting the world's largest war games each and every year to practice for another invasion.
That's what the U.S. did and is doing to North Korea. Their pursuit of nuclear weapons and threats to use them - in a response to an attack on their country - is entirely rational.
Just look at all the goodwill!
With surprising speed and warmth, the presidents of North and South Korea reached a broad agreement on Wednesday to work for peace and unity on their bitterly divided peninsula, the biggest step by either side to ease tensions in 50 years.
The agreement, which came after more than three hours of talks in the North Korea capital, Pyongyang, on the second day of their first summit meeting, was signed and toasted by President Kim Dae Jung of South Korea and President Kim Jong Il of the North, who were shown on South Korean television clinking champagne glasses, shaking hands vigorously and smiling broadly.
[...]
The general points agreed on included the need for reconciliation and unification; the establishment of peace; the commencement in August of exchange visits by members of divided families; and more cultural exchanges.
Wait a minute... Kim Jong... Il?
Oooooh, that article is talking about the peace breakthrough from 2000. My bad, just got the wrong link!
I stole this Sig
North Korea has for years offered to draw back their weapons program if the United States would do such things as stop practice invasions or threatening first strikes against them.
There's an unhinged warmongering country that desperately needs to be reigned in and stripped of its weapons here - and over there is North Korea. American Exceptionalists who find fault with that statement, feel free to compare the number of countries that North Korea has attacked since the 1950's with the number America has bombed just since the year 2000.
This whole thing seems silly and confusing. All parties signed an agreement to this fact in 1953. The only reason the US would invade North Korea is if NK they started firing on someone, which they constantly keep threatening to do. They are the aggressors here. Why are they asking us for what we have alrwady given? Why is the aggressor asking us for peace? How about take away the artillery you have pointed at your neighbor?
Something is afoot here...
A promise to end a war that began in 1950 would be huge for the North Koreans, even if they did start it. Ending an expensive development program that they can't really afford would also be huge. So I can see that Crazy Kim sees brethren in our own leadership and would do the deal, with as much honesty as anyone can expect in today's world. He's even offering press and other officials complete access to his [known] facilities to verify the dismantling. No nukes with verification for us seems like a good deal for Trump. It would of course need to be signed by China as well. And I think it's not surprising to apparent mad men can come to terms. It takes on to know one, and they are both one.
Of course it does leave open cyber warfare where they seem to be doing better and to which South Korea is very susceptible. Good thing they only have a single block of 1,024 for the whole nation! (175.45.176.0 – 175.45.179.255.) Oh wait.. maybe that's not a problem.
Do you know anything about WWII?
With Japan the choice was not "Use Nukes" vs. "Everyone lives in Peace". The alternative was a landed invasion of Japan, with an expected body count far in excess of anything the nukes did. The nukes gave the Japanese leadership a face-saving reason for surrender, saving many lives. Claiming that the U.S. leadership using nukes was "insane" in the context of the Pacific war is ridiculous.
First of, this is an adults world, so the kids among us should drink they milk and go to bed before 22.
Much has been attained by the sword. That includes the pax americana and also some slavery abolishment in some places. Let's compare how many countries the US has occupied, enslaved and drained of resources since ever compared to the homologous number the commies (that also now rule in NK) have done. Tell me again how many houdreds of millions of ppl has the US condemned to abject poverty ?
What's that you say ? The USSR/China never created NK ?
Ignorant hippies. I'll just leave this here: http://assets4.bigthink.com/sy... (if the bottom is the American way then only a madman would argue with observable reality)
The Warlord Hillary would have sent in ground troops?
If the Annointed One had won the election, there would be three or possibly low four figure US casulties by this time in the ground war in Syria.
For her clients, the coveted gas pipeline across Syria is worth that much.
Sure Trump gets credit... for a being the Crazy Cop in a Crazy/Sane Cop approach to foreign policy. His approach to a much more capable adversary could lead to all-out Nuclear war.
But let's wait for a few years down the road to see how this all turns out.
Reality check time.
1. The DPR borders both China and Russia. Both nations have massive and very capable military forces and don't want a US presence on their back porch.
2. Pyongyang is only 160 km from the Chinese border city of Dandong.
3. Seoul is only about 50 km south of the DMZ. South Koreans aren't keen on the North Korean military flattening residential neighbourhoods just outside the capital. It wouldn't be good for business, either.
4. China is actively seeking a diplomatic solution to North Korea by encouraging a shift from militarization to manufacturing and cooperation with China and South Korea. The easiest solution is to pay off Kim Jong-Un and and neuter his military by paying off everyone in power, then provide employment and increasing prosperity and modernization for the DPR.
Large armies of rabble have beaten technologically superior enemies before. They've done it in Korea, in fact.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Some conservatives would hate them even if the Democrats proposed dismantling the EPA and removing all gun restrictions. If you're going to get castigated no matter what you do, you should probably stop giving a shit what other people say. Give your side the results they want so that people want to keep voting for your side instead alienating both your own side for doing nothing and the other side merely for existing.
You only need study H. Clinton's history during her time as Secretary of State. She's more of a globalist-enabler than a liberal. She and her clients were just itching for her to come to power so she could escalate the conflict in Syria. And it was NEVER about human rights or the plight of the Syrians. It has always been about the natural gas pipeline they want to string over Syrian territory to get said gas to market at a profit.
It was great to see the North and South shake hands. :) Lets not waste this chance to make life better for everyone. Cant we just get along, respect each other.
[($)]
However; there is another factor going on that most Slashdotters don't seem to be aware of: According to multiple sources, the nuclear test site at Punggye-ri has collapsed and has been experiencing landslides. Apparently the whole mountain is caving in on itself. What I think happened is that the test explosions combined with an unforeseen fault in the mountain, catching the researchers off guard. There is no information regarding the fate of the researchers and all of their painfully acquired equipment of course, but it seems quite possible that a lot of un-replaceable equipment and perhaps even some key researchers were lost in the process.
Kim Jung-Un can't rattle the nuclear sabre if the sabre has been taken away. Much of the resources needed to pursue a nuclear program, both materials and know how, had to be smuggled in over the course of years or even decades. Anything North Korea lost in the geological event(s) will take years to replace. And, after rattling the nuclear sabre and having at least partial success in test explosions, the economic sanctions and blockades are going to be more carefully enforced. It may be impossible for North Korea to resume its research and testing in time to save it. Because...
Other reports last year hinted that North Korea was forecasting yet another massive famine for its people. The phrase that sticks in my mind was "A year when The People ate grass". Last summer, when the sabre rattling started to ramp up coincided with yet another drought in North Korea. I thought then, and still think now, that North Korea resorted to sabre rattling again to try and extort more famine relief from the west like it had done many times in the past. (Which the North Korean gov't has always spun as being "war reparations" to its people.)
The west has been predicting the collapse of North Korea for decades, only to be proven wrong again and again as the North Korean people prove just how much can be endured. However, this time I think the North Korean government is the one predicting a collapse.
In my opinion, the only barrier to North Korea formally surrendering and re-uniting the people is bargaining for some kind of escape and immunity for the upper echelons so that they can avoid justice for the massive toll of crimes and human rights violations they have perpetrated against their own people. I predict that we are going to see rumours of special arrangements for the top officials floated about to test public reception just before they make that a formal point in the peace talks.
I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
The United States removed all our nuclear weapons from Korea in 1991 you idiot.
Buy yourself a time machine if you want to change which nations are allowed to have them at home.
I like to deal in facts, not wishes....
There have been 30 “defensive” Democratic war years, for about 15% of the total.
There have been 25 “defensive” Republican war years, for about 12.5% of the total.
There have been 64 “offensive” Democratic war years, for about 32% of the total.
There have been 81 “offensive” Republican war years, for about 40.5% of the total.
From a warmongering perspective, Republicans are king.
Mike @ The Geek Pub. Let's Make Stuff!
That scoreboard does not show a tie game, but it sure shows that both sides have carried the ball quite a bit. Here's a secret, though: I am no rooting for either 'team.' You seem to be rooting for the 'D' choice, howver. But look how many wars they've started!
What if the scenario was the following.
1. Kim Jon Il, and now his pimple faced son, Kim Jon Un tried for a long time to build up a scare towards the West, that they would have nuclear missiles to be able to attack South Korea, Japan and USA.
2. They were however for a long time not successful, with neither missiles of a decent range, nor nuclear tests.
3. Recently they were able to make some subterranean tests that they claimed were even thermonuclear (hydrogen bombs), but that I can't find any evidence of even being nuclear. A lot of classical explosives to make a large blast, and then some kind of nuclear radiation to simulate a nuclear blast may have been what they did.
4. Until very recently NK was very unsuccessful in their missile tests, but suddenly after the Russia-Ukraine spat, they were very successful.
5. So, could it be that NK was able to get hold of some missile engines from the Ukraine/Russia area, and use those in a number of tests showing the world that now they had finally broken into a successful line of making ICBMs that could even hit all of USA soil?
6. Now they are out of those engines, so they won't be able to make more successful launches, and therefore want to negotiate a peace treaty.
7. They have never been able to make successful nuclear bombs, and definitely not missile war heads, but pretending that they can, they want to use that for negotiation.
So, what I want to say with this message is, don't give NK too much credit when negotiating with them, because their capabilities aren't significant!
They still rely heavily on the support from China and Russia, so focus should shift away from NK, to China and Russia, and pressure on those countries.
North Korea in itself is insignificant to negotiate with.
He took the title of shahansha in the 60s, tried to reform Iran into a more secular country. Yup was a Playboy and brutal with the Muslim fundamentalists
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what would you say then... what would the media say?
Keep in mind, Obama got a Nobel Peace prize JUST for getting elected in the first place.
I suspect that everyone but Trump is going to get a peace prize even though ... increasingly people just need to concede that they're not even paying attention, don't even care what happens, all that matters is crass tribal loyalty... Because nothing short of mindless tribalism justifies the standing behavior.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
The results are piling up. Some will deny until the stars burn cold... but if the results keep coming in they're going to find themselves increasingly isolated.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Just a friendly reminder: Whatever MMO you think you are logged into... you're not.
Don't flatter yourselves. From other countries both your red and blue tied numpties are equally wrong.
Coincidentally Tump might have called it , Kim rumored to have health issues. This could help drive a change of heart or liver or whatever ails him. Perhaps desires accesss to Western medicine or needs to bide time etc... My guess based on his very obese body and pics of him smoking he has something like diabetes. Anyway have to wait and see. So far the usual propaganda theatrics.
I like to deal in facts, not wishes....
You like to deal with lies in statistics. Why did you choose "war years" instead of "number of warmongering Republicans" vs "number of warmongering Democrats?"
The truth is there are warmongering people in both parties, and you are treating politics like a sports game: you chose your side, and you will make up arguments to make your side look good. You only care about truth if it makes your team look good. Stop that.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
They look dumb as bricks from inside the country as well, which is why the largest party in America by far is "independent" (no affiliation).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Because getting rid of all the weapons of mass destruction or WMD's as Bush liked to call them worked out well for Iraq, they complied fully with international demands, which the US knew full well but went ahead and made up some crap about WMD and invaded them, not to steal the oil but to bring this belligerent nation to heel.
It's better to have your boys killed over there than ours over here.
Welcome to reality, dipshit. It's cold and brutal. Be thankful America is on top. China, Russia, or Iran would be torturing you for speaking out like you did.
For as much criticism Trump (rightfully) gets, this is a win for him and he deserves to be congratulated and remembered for it. I don't even think it's a case of lucky timing. It appears his.... bat-shit crazy strategy of fluffery and brinksmanship successfully scared N. Korean's leadership, or sufficiently motivated China's influence in that direction. A change in strategy. Isn't there something about the benefits of having a psychopath general because the opposition can't predict him? Looks like that's what was needed to break the logjam.
Swords to fucking plowshears. It's a good day for the world. And in all honesty, congratulation President Trump.
(God that felt weird to type. Knowing the guy though, he'll complain about it not being a good deal. At this point, he's just lost the ability to shock me.)
But but... numbers!
This aspie buffoon has found a way to compare apples to oranges by relying on a precise, discrete unit called a "war year." Such "conviction" - must be comforting.
Why do you snowflakes have to keep bringing up Clinton? You got your man; he's a sack of sh** just like we told you he'd be.
Yet you all have to constantly compare him to an imaginary Presidency, instead of admitting to yourself the White House is serving as daycare for an idiot child with the temperament of a rabid rat.
Stop being such shi**y winners and get to work fixing your fu**up.
mnem
But wait, there's more! Now how much would you pay? Never mind... you'll pay EVERYTHING.
Does total number of war years really mean anything? When one party gets us into a war, and the other comes into office, they can't always just bring the troops home. And, where do these figures come from? You're showing 200 years of war...republicans and democrats haven't existed for 200 years.
Just another day in Paradise
It never was about the natural gas pipeline but I fully agree it never is about human rights. Human rights are a tool. There is a lot of deliberate infliction of human suffering going on but you select the bits that support your agenda. An agenda which is never intended to reduce human suffering, not even as a side effect.
The key to improve the human condition in dictatorships is to offer the rulers a way out: you commit to leave the state intact but demand concrete changes. In Syria there was a very legitimate opposition to the government (beside a very violent component which was not reported on and which grew massively from import in 2012) but from the start the message was 'the regime is going to fall quickly, don't negotiate or compromise in any way'.
North Korea didn't flatten every city in the United States
Correct, they flattened every city in South Korea.
nor has it engaged in the world's largest war games every year to invade the United States.
Correct; they engage in the world's largest war games every year to invade South Korea.
That's what you did to them
Incorrect.
all the while invading countries for BS reasons and overthrowing dozens of democracies.
Also incorrect.
So who here really needs to have their words verified?
North Korea and you, apparently.
Your definition of a war year must be pretty loose, considering that the US is about 240 years old and you have a total of 200 war years.
Sounds about right
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Next up, make the same crime, robbery, suddenly a different crime if the robber who did the same thing and took the same thing used a gun... then call it gun crime. Oh and pretend that reducing the number of firearms made available does not "take their guns away" just as surely as literally going door to door and taking firearms away just more slowly.
I'm 36 years old and we've been engaged in one or more wars that entire 36 years. Not sure how it worked before that but according to Wikipedia we've been engaged in this war against North Korea since at least 1950 so that is at least 68 sequential years of war.
Lie. Nobody "flipped" back in the 60s. The same Democrats and Republicans that were running for election in the 50's and 60's were running in the 70's and 80's for the same parties.
And how many republicans have tried to shrink the military? How many have actively sought to increase it beyond it's already overbloated size?
Those are questions you should have searched for instead of asking me. I'll help you by giving you a start with this graph.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Being old enough to actually remember has it's perks, one being I don't need to look up things I watched happening. Also, I find it pretty interesting that you accuse GP of lying by showing the wrong statistics, and yet you end up digging up that image, as opposed to this one at the very tip top of the wikipedia article.
That Kim might used his nuclear and missile program to force the US to stop threatening to invade, or to blow them to radioactive dust.
It might be noted that when people have guns pointed at you, you're not likely to become more kind and laid back....
republicans and democrats haven't existed for 200 years.
Yeah, actually they have. The Democratic-Republican party goes back to the first decade of the republic, and it is the direct antecedent to both the Democratic Party and the Republican party. They've held the presidency for all but 20 years of the existence of the office, and the majorities in the House and Senate for all but 18 and 14 years, respectively.
While I get your point, I'd like to add that caclulating propensity to start war with number of years engaged in conflict is really, not the same thing. I'm not sure how you divied this up, whether you counted things like Somalia, Bosnia/Kosovo, etc.
The US hasn't invaded any country with their military for the stated cause of imperialism.
Fixed that for you.
What does Trump have to do with it? Kim Jong-Un just met with China's leadership. If anyone deserves a peace prize of this, it's them.
if the United States would agree to formally end the Korean War and promise that it would not invade his country
Rather hard to believe that Mr Kim would actually trust Mr Trump with anything. I would not, knowing his pervasive tendency to lie.
So, there MUST be some covert caveat or other agenda up Mr Kim's proverbial sleeve.
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
Also, I find it pretty interesting that you accuse GP of lying by showing the wrong statistics, and yet you end up digging up that image, as opposed to this one [wikipedia.org] at the very tip top of the wikipedia article
Why is the one I used the wrong statistic? Can you justify your assertion, or are you just blowing shit?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Because the only choice was him or Clinton, dipshit.
according to the south korean president and the foreign minister of south korea... trump gets credit... I mean... that's what they said.
I understand your problem here. But it can't be hand waved any more than you can fly by flapping your arms... its just too much.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Donald Trump's Ghostwriter Tells All (July 25, 2016)
"The Art of the Deal (published in 1987) made America see Trump as a charmer with an unfailing knack for business. Tony Schwartz helped create that myth -- and regrets it."
I'm not here to quibble about their antecedents, but the recognized starting dates...
"Founded in the Northern states in 1854..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
"the modern-day Democratic Party was founded around 1828 by supporters of Andrew Jackson"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Just another day in Paradise