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Microsoft Could Move Some Jobs Abroad Because of US Immigration Policies, Top Exec Says (cnbc.com)
Microsoft does not want to move jobs out of the United States but certain decisions out of Washington could potentially force its hands, the company's President and Chief Legal Officer Brad Smith warned. From a report: The Trump Administration's tough stance on immigration has attracted a lot of criticism from big technology firms, which rely heavily on skilled foreign workers from around the world. Smith previously spoke out against efforts to stop the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program -- an Obama-era policy that provides legal protection for young immigrants brought to the U.S. illegally as children. Microsoft has advocated the protection of DACA and more broadly supported immigration as a way to make sure U.S. companies are hiring talented people. "We do worry about a couple of the very specific immigration questions that people appear to be debating in Washington," Smith told CNBC's Akiko Fujita in an interview on Wednesday.
[...] "We don't want to move jobs out of the United States and we hope that we don't see decision making in Washington that would force us to do that," he said, adding that Microsoft has been openly speaking to people in Congress, at the White House and even the Canadian government to safeguard the interest of its employees. Microsoft has a development center in Vancouver, which Smith described as a "bit of a safety valve." "We're not going to cut people loose. We're going to stand behind them," he added.
[...] "We don't want to move jobs out of the United States and we hope that we don't see decision making in Washington that would force us to do that," he said, adding that Microsoft has been openly speaking to people in Congress, at the White House and even the Canadian government to safeguard the interest of its employees. Microsoft has a development center in Vancouver, which Smith described as a "bit of a safety valve." "We're not going to cut people loose. We're going to stand behind them," he added.
âoeWe want the cheapest workers possible that will endure the most abuse, and if Trump wonâ(TM)t let us have them, weâ(TM)ll go someplace where we can get them. Obama knew to play ball on this, why canâ(TM)t Trump?â
"We don't want to move our asses from our comfortable offices, but as we can't continue importing cheap labor, we'll have to follow where that cheap labor used to come from."
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Politics can do what they want, if we want to hire cheap foreigners we'll hire cheap foreigners. Here or abroad.
Ya know, while he's at it, couldn't Trump start putting tariffs on software?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
...look what you made me do.
-Microsoft.
...when everything is a crime, everyone is a criminal.
Let's see the actual demographic makeup of their devs. Spoiler: it's overwhelming male and white / Asian / Indian like all other big tech firms. This is just a cheap soundbite to placate the SJW crowd with absolutely no substance behind it, and everyone knows it. Besides, I'm confused: doesn't the H1B program that Microsoft et al abuse exist in practice solely to bring (temporary) immigrants into the country (to work as indentured tech servants and save big corps money)? Their statement here about caring about immigrants is 100% trash -- follow their money.
...that wants to hire cheap foreign labor within the USA. They claim they can't get good US help. Well... maybe they can't. If you are about to embark on a career, and are looking at studying for 4 or more years, incurring massive debt, and then having to wait to be hired by businesses that have lowered their wage scale substantially by importing cheap foreign labor that you have to compete with, what are you going to do? Maybe take up law or medicine, if your that smart, because the software industry is now a comparatively low pay industry, and often with insane work hours to boot. These people are smart, and lots of 'em are smarter than lining themselves up to be mediocre middle-classers instead of upper middle-classers is not all that appealing.
Back before the dot-bomb of the early 2000's, actual Americans were making 6 figures, even in those more valuable year-2000 dollars, because real Americans were doing the work. Then the outsourcing and H1B Visas had their impacts, and news from the software wage front has been pretty dismal. This industry sabotaged itself with complicity by the US gov't working against it's citizens.
The best US university courses are still graduating the best graduates who got accepted on merit. Every year. For decades.
From artists, to engineers to every kind of computer expert.
What is some other nation doing that the USA cant get from its educational graduates?
Cost of work?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Tech companies can find experts in any skill they need right here in the US. Any jobs they move abroad are moved to save costs, not because of scarcity of talent.
Fact: there is a global shortage of IT talent.
Fact: US firms import some talent, on either a permanent on temporary basis, to deal with the domestic part of this shortage.
Fact: The current US administration is virulently xenophobic and scares many immigrants.
Fact: US firms need talented workers, regardless of location or nationality.
Fact: Knowledge work can be relocated much more easily than other kinds of work.
Conclusion: Firms will continue import talent to North America, but locate them in Canada rather than the US. This is a lower cost jurisdiction in any case, and while far from perfect has a far more sane political system than the US. Moreover, Canada does not import many temporary foreign workers (it does some, but the bar is set quite high). It imports far more permanent immigrants, which is healthy for all concerned.
Quantity. For the size of America the number of graduating engineers is really quite small. Hence they imort from all over the world. Also many smart Americans choose mba instead of engineering generally speaking.
You may have noticed you basically need to be rich to get a degree in America. Not so elsewhere in the world. I'm Australian, imported to Seattle on the strength of 6 yeas uni that cost me 30k.
Fix the eductation problem and you'll fix the hire local problem.
It is the wrong kind of immigration policies in US that allow for this "cheapest labor exploitation". Speaking as a Canadian, the work permit here, which is equivalent to H1-B in US is bound to the employer, but the permanent resident status, equivalent to green card is not. So you get here on work permit, apply for permanent resident status couple years later and your employer effectively has no leverage except a just pay and a healthy work environment. Sure it costs 2 years before you can apply, however its not like a decade or so in US at the mercy of your employer.
However, the top 10% of the U.S. are better than the top 1% of dem Indians.
Unfortunately only 4.4% of the world's population lives in the U.S. So, even if the top 10% of the U.S. actually is better than 99% of the world... That 1% of the world, 72 million people, is still twice the number of "10% of the U.S. population".
âoeWe're not going to cut people loose. We're going to stand behind themâ.....a couple days after their annual RIFâ(TM)ing.
Then you work on policy to make Americans the talent you need dumb ass - its simple. Government is for its own people.
"Fuck free market capitalism! Planned economies always outperform the free market. WE WILL BURY YOU!" -- Comrade Trump (in his essay explaining his immigration and tariff policies)
The stupidest thing about US politics today, is that the people who complain the loudest about the president, are called "the left" or "liberals" and the ones who support him are (this is hilarious, you won't believe it!) are called "the right" or "conservatives."
Any chance they can move their Windows 8x, 10x UI with them and leave us stuck with the 9x/XP/7 interface? *Hopeful look*
We want the cheapest workers possible that will endure the most abuse, and if Trump won't let us have them, ...
Because he wants to hire them himself.
https://www.eater.com/2018/7/6/17540914/mar-a-lago-trump-foreign-workers-immigration
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/396346-mar-a-lago-requesting-permission-to-hire-78-foreign-workers
Jesus Christ. Broken record much?
We just need a Federal excise tax on all domestic sales of software produced outside of the United States. End of problem.
We can't import them, so we export our offices... and because we don't want to seem like we are the bad guys who outsource everything to non-americans, we will blame the goberment.
More skilled people can live and work near their families and we don't need to agree to import tens of millions of welfare recipients or millions of eager workers to bid down wages. Let's go ahead with that.
You want to talk the talk about diversity and racial bias - hire minorities from within your own cities that you're currently located at and TRAIN them.
No no... better to leave the country because you can't find "good people" here in the US.
By looking at Windows 10, they really are short of talents. Even if they hired a bunch of blind hobos and crack whores to design their UI, the end result could not be any worse.
Utter fucking bullshit.
This says "we dont want to pay high salaries for workers" all over it.
DACA is not about skilled technology workers at all. The man, quite clearly, is against US enforcing its borders in principle...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Re 'For the size of America the number of graduating engineers is really quite small."
The USA gave the world modern computing. Both in terms of theory, production line design and global manufacture.
Traitorous eight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Nothing outside the USA is beyond what the USA can teach its own students.
The USA is still selecting most of its engineering students on merit. They have to pass exams and have to know their work.
Been rich does not grant a person the needed ability to study and the ability to pass an exam.
The US system still looks for all people on merit. When sitting a free exam.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Because most of the Talent doesn't want to see their labor locked behind a license?
Or to have anything to do with their business model?
The "starving artist/prodigy" is a real thing. There are incredibly talented and high quality people out there that money simply won't be able to buy.
Are they obvious? Or doing as much as they could with M$oft behind them? No. But they are doing as well as they can with what they have to work on their own goals in life.
Corporations, and the market in general are increasingly losing touch with the fact there is more to life than wealth hoarding.
Labor is just as fickle as Capital. Microsoft and any big business out there needs to start paying attention to that.
Taft-Hartley won't protect them forever.
Microsoft has advocated the protection of DACA
Why? Because they are hiring child labor?
You have posted this clap-trap reply at least 3 times on this article as an AC. If you are so sure of yourself why don't you act like an adult and put your name to it?
Caution: Contents under pressure
What limits production of highly skilled workers in the US is the US education system.
Public schools vary immensely in quality and funding levels. Higher education is expensive and also of variable quality. Those top schools you mention are pretty exclusive and many can only afford them with assistance.
That's one of the reasons why tech companies are trying to help schools with STEM education. They are trying to increase the supply.
But that's not what people opposing immigration of skilled workers want. If supply increases, there is downward pressure on wages. Better education, more women and minorities entering the tech jobs market, it all has the same effect as tech workers immigrating.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
You may have noticed you basically need to be rich to get a degree in America. Not so elsewhere in the world. I'm Australian, imported to Seattle on the strength of 6 yeas uni that cost me 30k.
I'm from the US, been working for 14 years from a 4 year degree that cost me $20k, move onto a master's degree that my company paid for. Costs are higher than they were, but the key to me is going to a good priced state college, rather than a 6 figure a year college that doesn't teach anything more.
"All of Windows 10 program is done by India."
Prakesh, that is interesting. Windows 10 has made Microsoft's bad reputation far, far worse, in my opinion.
You also said, "That is why Microsoft has gone to India, because we know that privacy is a problems."
In 2 of your sentences, there are 2 mistakes in your English. That's what we are seeing in Windows 10. There are many, many sloppy bugs.
Windows 10 is possibly the worst spyware ever made. "Buried in the service agreement is permission to poke through everything on your PC." (August 4, 2015)
7 ways Windows 10 pushes ads at you.... (March 3, 2016)
Microsoft again forced upgrades on Win10 machines specifically set to block updates (March 12, 2018)
They'd hire local if they could, but the talent doesn't exist in sufficient numbers at any price point.
I just don't believe it. Sure maybe the talent pool in the region is exhausted but they could certainly hire people away from the midwest or the east coast if they offered enough incentives. They don't need to be non-citizens. Finally if there is no domestic talent why is that?
Could it be because by allowing the mass outsourcing and insourcing of international labor we have allowed the capital owner class to effetively become international tourists? Is that why: they don't invest in our own communities. They don't both developing local talent. They are not working on influencing and funding our educators to create people who can fill other than their sweatshop level needs /?
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
For the first position to be shifted to overseas, I recommend President and Chief Legal Officer.
Why not just get people in the USA to pass an exam on merit?
Pass the same exam as everyone, get into university.
Study a lot to enter a profession.
Apply for a job.
Work for a US company.
Pay back the loan. Some will get merit-based scholarships.
The US education system has added a lot of money per student since the 1950's and every decade.
Books, calculators, computers, the internet, laptops, robot kits, new buildings, more computers and money.
The exams are not exclusive. The person just has to have the ability to study and pass the same exam in a set time.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Dude that article is from 1956. America in 2018 just isn't comparable to 1956. It's lost the will to build. Consider there are 550 million europeans with access to education easily as good as American, at a fraction the cost. There are 2 billion Indian and Chinese, of those a small % but high number are rich enough to send kids overseas to get a great education, previosuly the prime target for that was the USA (until Trump, now they go to Europe/Canada/Australia).
This high tech advanced tech stuff is common now and has gone global. Hence, there are more foreigners than Americans with the skills. Hence, it's hard to find Americans.
The choice is this: Import the foreigner, or export the job. Which would you prefer? We can move the jobs to Vancouver/Sydney/Dublin/Berlin/London easily enough.
That policy, assuming it is respected and applied by other administrations down the line, will take decades to show up. What do you do in the meantime?
That can be offshored.
Microsoft recently had a silent round of layoffs (like they do every fiscal year) which are not performance based.
If the business is struggling so hard to find workers, why are they not utilizing their current personnel to fill open positions instead of letting them go? I find it hard to believe with the breadth of skill sets being let go that there isn't someone in that group that would qualify for these openings.
Perhaps they should consider older workers or open an office somewhere in the midwest where the cost of living is more reasonable.
Branch out to any countries that provide sufficiently stable and corruption free environment and argue to the other countries that want the jobs for the same. Don't go there until the conditions are suitable. That will get the lazy, or power hungry politicians moving. A better world all around. Meanwhile US does what US does with these issues. It's their right within the law and if their policies are failures, they pay a price for them just like everybody else.
Excuse me, but the old continent gave the world modern computing. Luigi Manabrea made the hardware (aka Analytical engine) and Ada Lovelace the software. And that was in the 1840s (yep, 1800s). Ada even predicted that computers would be able to compose music... Then Alan Turing rediscovered Ada's work, and the rest is history.
Britain, Italy... definitely not USA.
Great schools here sure, but if you look at the grads especially in CS/Engineering and especially at grad school you'll find that most of them are going to need Visas if they want to stay and work here...
So?
AC all the good things that moved computing along got released from the USA.
The "million europeans" attempted computers in the 1970's - early 1980's.
What did consumers want to import? MS and Apple.
Re "This high tech advanced tech stuff is common"
Where is the EU? Canada? Dublin? Trying to impress local political leaders that with some more tax support they too can get a production line working in a decade? Just like they attempted in the 1980's?
The USA has the freedoms the EU and other nations do not.
Freedom of speech. Freedom after speech.
The freedom to invest. The freedom to invent. The freedom to fail and try again. The freedom to hire on merit.
Thats what made the USA unique. No having to go to a gov to ask for investment, for permission to start a company, to pay all new profits as a tax.
To get a gov accept a product design, service after a grant was given.
To make any new computer product fit in with a nations education policy. So tax payers would buy an educational computer.
The USA has the freedom to grow. The EU has the freedom to tax.
The choice is to go to any great US university and find people who passed their exams on merit and hire them.
The jobs cant move to a Vancouver/Sydney/Dublin/Berlin/London as their system of laws are not set up to attract investors and keep tech jobs.
Wages, laws, taxes all shape the ability to move a job into another nation. Other nations see productive work and resulting profit as something to tax.
Make a profit and their nations tax system will take it.
Laws surround who must be hired and how. The hours they work and wages.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Then you work on policy to make Americans the talent you need dumb ass - its simple. Government is for its own people.
The trouble is when you need that workforce today, and not a decade from now.
If you don't know this simple model of supply and demand you should really look into mirror to find the dumb ass.
This needs to get upmodded.
I have friends who graduated top of their class here in Sweden as MSc CS and got hand-picked for special positions within IT-companies in the US. Some didn't even graduate, they got snatched way before. And believe me, they are not getting paid any substandard wages.
To top it off, we did not pay for our degree out of our pockets since all Swedish citizens have the right to go to the university if you have the merits, and the government both give you money (albeit a very small sum per month) and gives you a reasonable loan if you need to take it.
But I am living in that socialist/communist shit-hole so many "Americans" (yes, in quotes, since I know a lot of real Americans that don't want to run their country into the ground) love to take a dump at, so don't believe my indoctrinated mind, just steal my buddies.
[citation needed]
Because I know for a fact that it's going to cost us about $150k per kid to put them through the public in-state big-name land-grant institution here for a 4-year degree when they hit college age. Fortunately for them they have grandparents and parents that will be able to cover that cost (or near enough to it) that they won't have to worry about debt.
We have encouraged both of our kids to do extremely well academically in the hopes that they get full rides and won't need the 529 money we've saved for them. If that happens we'll have a windfall we can move right into our 401(k)s.
How does your post address the comment you quote at all?
Are you saying America has plenty of engineers now because we invented modern computing decades ago? That just doesnt follow at all.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
Microsoft has been a foreign company residing in the United States, ever since then Chairman Bill Gates campaigned successfully to flood the American labor market with H-1B visas and bring in cheap tech labor from abroad to work in his offices in Redmond, Washington and elsewhere. So lawyer Brad Smith is the mouthpiece for his foreign bosses. He doesn't necessarily represent the American point of view, when he whines about Beltway policies.
There is no reason why Microsoft shouldn't move abroad, where they can find cheaper labor markets, and where they can feel more at home in the international marketplace. Good riddance, Microsoft. Maybe Bill Gates will take his foundation offshore, too. Good riddance Bill and Melinda. Sayonara. Hasta la vista. We no longer need you. Once we import your software from abroad, we'll put a tariff on it, and Washington will be very happy filling its coffers.
Agreed, there are more free rides in college than ever before, especially if you are not American.
If microsoft wants to play like this i suppose my investments into microsoft will be reevaluated and moved according to the politics of the company. Im sure other companies will be more than happey with my money helping them!
Cost me 500 the first time i invested gaine me very little the second time. other companies pay better dividends and have more people friendly management.
The USA has the freedoms the EU and other nations do not.
Freedom of speech.
That is bolocks.
No having to go to a gov to ask for investment, for permission to start a company
Thats bolocks.
to pay all new profits as a tax.
Corporate tax on profuts is between 20% and 25% all over Europe.
The jobs cant move to a Vancouver/Sydney/Dublin/Berlin/London as their system of laws are not set up to attract investors and keep tech jobs.
That is bollocks, of course the laws are set up to attrack any kind of job.
The USA has the freedom to grow. The EU has the freedom to tax.
Thats bolocks.
Make a profit and their nations tax system will take it.
Why do you write nonsense like this? How would the economy in such a nation work? (*facepalm*)
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
M$ may have a harder time obtaining incompetent yet cheap and exploitable labor from South Asia so they are offshoring.
Weren't they doing this already? (hint: yes).
Utter fucking bullshit.
^^^ This. I don't think a person fitting the economic profile I had 30 years ago could go to college. No way no how.
I made it by sheer luck, a lot of people helping me, pell grants, a scholarship and a non-trivial amount of student loans (which I'm still paying.)
Now, and due to the exorbitant cost of living, all of that is almost gone, except student loans. You either fail to graduate (because you have fucking eat sometimes) or take so much loans you end up in financial indenture for life.
This is not the same for all, though. If you live within driving distance of a 4-year university, you *still* get a chance to make it through college while poor.
But if you do not live within commuting distance from a college or university, forget about it.
I could see the changes coming when I was in college, and boy I'm glad I could graduate. No way I could do it again. And I see how much I need to save in college funds for my kids, it might be cheaper to send them to study overseas (or move my entire family).
I. AM. NOT. FUCKING. KIDDING.
The game is rigged against you unless your parents are within the 13% upper income bracket. Believe it. Believe it now more than ever.
Agreed, there are more free rides in college than ever before, especially if you are not American.
Oh really? Mention a few if you can.
Dude that article is from 1956. America in 2018 just isn't comparable to 1956. It's lost the will to build. Consider there are 550 million europeans with access to education easily as good as American, at a fraction the cost. There are 2 billion Indian and Chinese, of those a small % but high number are rich enough to send kids overseas to get a great education, previosuly the prime target for that was the USA (until Trump, now they go to Europe/Canada/Australia).
This high tech advanced tech stuff is common now and has gone global. Hence, there are more foreigners than Americans with the skills. Hence, it's hard to find Americans.
The choice is this: Import the foreigner, or export the job. Which would you prefer? We can move the jobs to Vancouver/Sydney/Dublin/Berlin/London easily enough.
Well, a lot of this folks still think the World operates as if we were in the 50's. It explains a lot.
as opposed to bringing them here on H1-B visas.
Is this supposed to make me feel one way or another for some reason?
in the slightest. He talks a big game but never does anything. He could undo the Obama era rule regarding spouses of H1-Bs whenever he wants, instantly adding 100k jobs for Americans (and putting pressure on the H1-Bs to demand higher salaries to afford stay at home spouses). He promised to do it on the campaign trail, so it's not like he's unaware of the issue too.
Trump runs his businesses with H2-Bs. This is well known. Cutting back on work visas reduces his businesses profitability. Anyone expecting him to do anything that doesn't benefit him personally hasn't been paying attention.
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In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Lots of Indian contractors living 5-6 to an apartment building, just walking distance to Microsoft, hardly any furniture except a TV, they work crazy hours, and send money home.
M$ has been using cheap visa workers for years, everyone around the Seattle area knows it, sees it.
Are these the workers M$ will move overseas? Or the flux of middleman project managers they burn through?
Why is MS(Microsoft) crying? Microsoft has many offices in other countries. Microsoft makes $Trillions$ of dollars so why do they want to hire people for very cheap pay? Because it's called Capitalism. Have a large pool of talented people for the type of job skill set and hire them very cheap. If Corporations of America doesn't take the responsibility of training their workers and misplaced workers then they should have Tariffs on their products. Some of the tariff monies can go to misplaced workers for re-training until they are able to find a new job or transition to their own Open Source company. If the Governments transitioned to Open Source and Linux then there would be lots of new companies across the nation. Why keep on buying Microsoft products if they don't hire Americans? Lets have our government migrate from Windows to Open Source and Linux. So that we all can be employed.
to their shareholders, which is the only legal requirement they have.
If we want them to behave well to their employees we have to force them, and that means electing the kinds of people who will do that. That means less Nancy Pelosi and Paul Ryan and more Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-cortez. But the latter leaves a bad taste in people's mouth because nobody likes paying taxes, even if it's for things they want (like enforcing pro-worker regulations)
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if they could have outsourced the jobs to someplace cheaper they would have already done it. You can safely ignore these threats. Lack of H1-Bs will never be a reason to lose jobs. The ability to outsource them is. Capital flows to where labor is cheapest (and yes, that's from Marx, he was right about some things ya know).
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
note I said "US Citizens". Because they're here for the long haul. They're citizens. They expect to have careers. Throw away contractors know they're throw away contractors and behave accordingly; spending as much time preparing for the next contract as doing their jobs.
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You can checkout for usa graduates scholarships here https://mystudyaid.org/category/usa/
Yes, government is inefficient and vile, and should never be trusted out sight, but despite that we DO need it in certain instances. The challenge is to keep it reigned in and on target, while ensuring it doesn't take over everything and do what it does best, bureaucratize everything to a stand still.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Companies find it is very difficult to move projects over seas as then you have issues with : 1) Coordination 2) Time difference 3) Project management.
It's time the US put tariffs on Microsoft products manufactured in China and the EU, and it is time to send H-1B workers home and give those jobs back to Americans.
https://www.oregonlive.com/sil... ... Microsoft has previously said it makes its other Surface computers in China."
" Microsoft was moving production to the same place it makes all other Surface products.
And, it's been going on for a long time:
https://gizmodo.com/5517137/mi...
"The conditions—supported by photographic, not just anecdotal evidence—sound downright horrendous:
Workers are hired as "work study students" as young as 16 years of age
They work extremely long shifts, typically "from 7:45 a.m. to 10:55 p.m," for $0.65/hr, less food deductions. (Actual wage: $0.52/hr.)
As is common in large manufacturing operations in China, the workers live onsite:
Fourteen workers share each primitive dorm room, sleeping on narrow double-level bunk beds. To "shower," workers fetch hot water in a small plastic bucket to take a sponge bath. Workers describe factory food as awful.
Workers are kept from leaving campus, except during designated hours
There are reports of sexual harassment of female workers by male security guards"
And, its been going on for years. Learn how NOT to employ Americans here in America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
So they'll hire non-American workers in their own countries, instead of bringing them to the US and having them work here. Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
I am so sick of hearing the rich, Tech giants and Hollywood, pretending to be so caring about people and demonizing their opponents, just to exploit foreign workers for low wages.
Let MS move overseas. Unless they are moving to Asia, they are going to find workers overseas have much better protections than in America.
I am pretty sure they are bluffing because they are re-inventing themselves right now. And reinventing themselves into a company that is a traitor to the country where they were founded is probably not the best position they could find themselves in. Trump has already proven he is willing to tussle with companies that aren't acting in America's interest. He's also proven he will back companies that work to improve the country. Given how well the current administration and Apple have been working together I find it hard to believe MS would be stupid enough to make their competitor's ally into their enemy.
All the US tech workers I've come across ( white ones that is) have been generally pretty good, but they have a flaw.
That flaw is they can't easily adapt to new circumstances, or show much initiative. They need quite a bit of coaching and direction.
They're nowhere near as bad as the Indians, but it's still apparent. I suspect it's due to their subconscious "Yes Massa!" mindset they carry around with them. They know if they even so much as look at their boss the wrong way they can be fired and the total financial ruination that would inflict on them.
Just an observation.
a shortage on people talented in being overworked for shit pay and no benefits..
We are now used to this stance: big corporations take economy as an hostage, and elected leaders must accept their rule.
But the news is that president Trump may have no problems with having the hostage killed to prevail.
What limits production of highly skilled workers in the US is the US education system.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA /.... wait wait.. wait .... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
As someone who works for a living along side some of the imported workers... their education is complete HOOEY.
I mean, the people from India do so-so I guess, but the people from the Philippines might as well have rocks for brains...
Let them move all their jobs out of the country - then void all their patents and copyrights in the US. let another company willing to hire US labor build it and replace them.
watch as they suddenly figure out ideas to train, skill and employ US workers.
I know how they are going to update notepad now, get some foreigner who knows how to code to do it.
Eater.com is a Vox Media property. #FakeNews
They hire foreigners because of the foreigners being involved in the hiring. The non-foreigners can't protest too much about the foreigners leaning heavily towards hiring a fellow foreigner for any position, or the non-foreigner will be accused of racism and fired.
I used to do off-site contract work for Siemens in Florida. We'd fly in to visit their offices every few months, and sometimes stay for a few weeks for specific projects. Every time we went, there were more Indians employed there than the last time. The main VP over the area we worked for was an Indian, and obviously hired an Indian for every position that he could. We contractors joked about cloning vats hidden in the basement that were churning out more Indians each quarter. White Siemens employees would ask if we (the contracting firm) were hiring, but our contract specifically banned us from hiring their employees.
Our contract wasn't renewed after the percentage of Indians in that division hit about 60%. I guess they'd reached critical mass.
Don't tell me there's no local talent. Most local talent is weeded out of the hiring process at the beginning by the non-locals in HR, then those left are rejected as often as possible by the non-locals every step of the interviewing process.
I think it's because foreigners think all of the US is like the big cities on the coast. They live there because it's better (in most cases) than the big cities they came from. They don't know that the cities on the coasts of the US are overpriced hellscapes that are turning into open sewers. All the media in the cities tells them that all the klan members outside the city want them all dead. There's a reason the media keeps pushing the "all people in the middle of the country are horrible hate-filled cannibals that'll eat you while they screw their sister" memes.
That's why a lot of citizens in the midwest would never move to work on the coast. They know better.
They won't come to the midwest, because they don't know how to follow the square dance caller, or know where the hootenanny is held.
They see a corn field and think "Children of the Corn" and run away.
Then they're not all that serious about there being a shortage.
But I do wonder if this is a major reason Surveillance Valley has been so eager to exclude Americans in favor of imported labor.
The guy who doesn't even live in the US is bitching about US hiring practices. Lady, thy name is hypocrisy.
the DACA "children" are mostly fully-grown adults competing in the workplace against actual US citizens?
Unlike "anchor babies" who illegal alien parents give birth to in the US in order to "anchor" the entire extended illegal family here, these DACA "kids" were "grappling hook babies" whose illegal alien parents tossed over the wall to use to pull the entire extended family across without even the fig leaf of a claim that the child was a citizen. They're far worse than the "anchor babies", having absolutely no claim of any rights at all to be here which is why all the arguments are made based on emotion and sympathy ploys centered on "children".
Sheesh!
The whole damned thing is an anti-American scam. If we decide to grant amnesty to the DACA "kids" then they will be allowed to bring in their parents (who are already here committing ID theft, pushing down the wages and benefits of American citizens, etc) to be made legal - something NO Democrat and no RINO will prohibit in legislation. In effect, the whole family gets to keep their ill-gotten gains because a child was involved. It's like a bank robber taking his kid along on the heist and then demanding he cannot be arrested (because that would separate him from his kid) and he must be let go (because it would be unfair to jail his kid with him) and the child should be allowed to keep the loot (because the child is innocent and had no role in the crime) and then after a couple of years the kid should be allowed to give a big chunk of the stolen money to the parent (because, hey! it's all in the past, dude). But, don't call this "amnesty" (deliberately letting somebody get away with a crime) which it definitely is, that would be racist.
When's the last time an American politician (other than Trump) spent as much time worrying about American citizens as so many of these current politicians and captains of industry spend fawning over these illegal alien "dreamers" and DACA "kids"????
All American citizens should demand the right to wantonly violate all the laws they want to violate, without penalty. If we're gonna destroy the rule of law and celebrate law breaking, we should stop being such anti-American bigots and go all-in - allowing the population who were born here as citizens of citizens to get in on the action. Amnesty for everybody and for everything!
Companies should think long and hard about threatening national governments, which is what Microsloth is doing here.
After all, if Microsloth needs those DACA kids from south of the border to do the work and is claiming the work needs to follow these experts to where ever they get deported to then why would they move the jobs to India rather than El Salvadore and Venezuelea? This is clearly not a case of "you deported my slaves, so I must move the plantation to where the slaves went". This is more like "you deported my slaves, so to get back at you I am opening a new plantation in a place where I get to have even more desirable slaves".
It's actually mighty funny in a sense to watch Microsoft being so publicly racist, like lots of the celebs who threatened to leave the US if Trump got elected. Nearly all those celebs said they's move to white-majority countries; not a damned one of the high-profile jerks announced a pending departure for Senegal or Mexico, etc - it was all about Canada, France, and New Zealand. Same here with Microsoft: Most DACAs are from South of the US-Mexico border, but Microsoft would move all the jobs to a spot in India.... ha ha ha ha... total anti-Hispanic racist plan by Microsoft who should be forced to move to Nicaragua to prove they are not "white supremacists" (or Indian supremacists?) ha ha ha.
You know, if they want a real fight with the US Govt, they should consider what might happen if their Windows operating system was declared a national security threat and banned from all government computers. Bad idea to pick this fight, especially over illegal immigrants.
"Microsoft isn't a h1b sweat shop."
Hahahahahahahaha - good one!
"Freedom of speech.
That is bolocks."
There's total freedom of speech in China, right comrade? Now as for freedom *after* speech...
"a good priced state college, rather than a 6 figure a year college that doesn't teach anything more."
You're paying for the name and the connections. Membership in the (totally coed) old boys club.
In Silicon Valley it's the difference between $150k for 60 hrs/wk as a programmer vs $350k for 30 hrs/wk as a "product person". Funny how those product people have no fucking idea what products will actually sell... but all seem to have gone to the same handful of elitist schools.
They already gave them their source code. Ill-Begotten Monstrosities already sold them Lenovo. This could drag down the Chinese economy for decades, while the USA is freed of kludgey baggage to advance the state of the art. Way to Win!
This is weird. Does this mean that Microsoft is uninterested in hiring US citizens?
There are plenty of developers here now in the U.S. It boils down to money, tech giants don't want to spend money on more expensive home grown talent or spend money on training.
"There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and
The Trump Administration's tough stance on immigration has attracted a lot of criticism from big technology firms, which rely heavily on CHEAP foreign workers from around the world.
FTFY
Bye, don't let the door etc.
This is the classic liberal approach to shutting down the cheap labor from overseas. The problem is that they think they are saving money, they will spend more per byte just to ensure the get good code. This is a classical liberal fallacy.
Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
right? Business want cheap labor. The left doesn't want to be unnecessarily cruel. Personally, I'd like to see us legalize drugs so Mexico & South America can stop being hell holes and maybe fix out foreign policy. While I'm at it tariffs should be based on working conditions & environmental impact.
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Push peopl to wake up MS. Sick of folks standing on the sideline criticising tough stance on immigration ... until it hurts their pocketbook.
Hows it feel to see one of the richest lib companies ditch your job opportunities while at the same time kissing your ass for your liberal vote?
Plenty of CS graduates, both American and foreign, but not nearly enough programmers to meet demand. I've been interviewing developers for about 30 years now, and it's still the case that about 80% of the candidates can't solve simple programming problems in an interview, or answer basic questions about the fundamentals of CS.
Why Can't Programmers Program? (https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/) is just as true today as it was in 2007, in 1997, in 1987.
Agreed, there are more free rides in college than ever before, especially if you are not American.
Oh really? Mention a few if you can.
Still waiting. Don't let the crickets chirp.