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50% of Parents in the US Believe Coding Most Beneficial Subject For Their Children, 75% Believe Big Tech Firms Should Be Involved in Helping Schools: Study (microsoft.com)
Long time reader theodp writes: According to a Microsoft-commissioned survey, 50% of parents in the U.S. with children aged 18 and under believed coding and computer programming to be the most beneficial subject to their child's future employability ("compared to foreign language skills at 28%"). From the Microsoft Education blog post: "When asked about the technology industry's involvement, 75 percent of parents said they believe big tech companies should be involved in helping schools build kids' digital skills. Many companies, including Microsoft and organizations like Code.org, are working to do just that. Programs like TEALS, which is supported by Microsoft Philanthropies, pairs trained Computer Science professionals from across the technology industry with classroom teachers to team-teach the subject." In 2016, Microsoft partnered with Rhode Island Gov. Gina Raimondo to help bring computer science education to every public K-12 school across the state, an initiative that Raimondo is now touting in her 2018 bid for re-election (political ad).
Writing software is intended to serve a purpose, not just making programs for the hell of it. What the heck problem does a kid need to solve with software? Kids need to learn basic math and science, not screwing around with computers. Writing code is a trivial side issue related to solving other problems, not an end to itself.
Let's just teach all of our children brain surgery, far more lucrative than programming. After all, anyone can do it, right?
End of story.
Guess 'coding' is going to be about as respectable as secretarial positions in a few years then! Fortunately it is still a difficult subject and to be useful you actually need to be able to convert requirements into a solution - that is the difficult bit, not being a simple code monkey.
I would imagine that for new students, by the time they reach of the end of their schooling, the landscape will be completely different.
We are already starting to see programs that will code for you. I could imagine in the not too distant future, there will be no need to know code. "Programmers" will be more akin to architects, arranging code blocks like Legos to get the desired outcome. The program will do the rest for them to complete the application.
I think that things are advancing fast enough that we will surely see this type of situation before my children are grown.
Personally, I feel that time is better spend learning core disciplines, like mathematics, physics and especially critical thinking skills. I think when you have a good grasp on core areas, that it becomes much easier to derive the correct answer in other areas.
Programmers are in high demand and command high salaries. Tech businesses own the world and basically print money. In addition, they have been blanketing our country with propaganda about how great a career is and how easy it is to learn coding. And it has worked, people believe this.
So, parents think their kids need to learn coding, to have stable careers and make lots of money.
None of this addresses the much-resisted fact that doing really well as a software developer requires above-average intelligence and a natural enjoyment of abstract problem solving. Most people do not fit that bill, and no amount of education will make them fit that bill.
If this wasn't true, we wouldn't be in a position where programmers are in high demand and can command high salaries. We would have a market awash with competent programmers, probably relying on programmers unions to protect themselves from employer abuse.
...have no experience of or insight in programming what so ever, but they've seen the word "coding" used by many mainstream outlets.
Many survey.
Wow.
It's not like these guys ever made up numbers to make themselves look good, or anything.
Most of it is outsourced, or H1bâ(TM)d. No one is going to hire a coder that hasnâ(TM)t done college. And colleges do not care about grade school CS.
All this shows is the power of propaganda.
Best languages to learn for kids.
DO NOT LEARN MICROSOFT PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES FOR KIDS.
Make sure that the programming language learned is usable on many OS/Platforms.
Like:
BASIC, Python, C. [ programming languages for desktop, workstation ]
HTML 5, CSS 3, JavaScript. [ Internet programming languages ]
The programming languages listed above runs on any OS(Operating System).
Make sure that the programming language(s) do not lock you into one OS/Platform.
Those parents should be asking where the majority of Fortune 500 companies (and mom and pop outfits too) currently get their coding done, and then consider if they want their precious snowflakes to spend their school years learning a trade that is almost completely outsourced (and certainly will be in the next decade with various countries racing to the bottom bidding for coding and IT jobs). Does little Johnny want to compete with a foreign programmer that is perfectly happy making $50US a day?
Coding(algorithms+data structures)+something else, like biology
Mathematics and English are the two most important subjects.
Looking forward to the day we can just feed AI a set of plain language requirements and it will code everything for us.
You get what you pay for.
Most of the good ones have already moved here.
"Coding" is easy. It's literally translate how do I do "X" in "Y" language. Coding is an art. Algorithms, and math are not easy. They're a science. This is what parents should be focusing on. We're falling further and further behind, while we churn out scores of JavaScript developers
Let me help you. The story starts with:
"According to a Microsoft-commissioned survey"
Questions that you should ask:
1. How does "more coding for children" help or hurt Microsoft?
2. How does "having big tech firms involved in helping schools" help or hurt Microsoft?
Answer those two questions, then read the claims again.
The most beneficial subject is the one the kids would try to learn themselves if it wasn't being taught. For many kids that's probably recess - and that's a good thing.
Seriously, this is insane. The idea that tech firms should be directly involved in helping schools is a horrible mistake.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I do have a degree in Computer Science. I was never a programmer, except in college.
That being said, I never wanted my child to learn coding as anything other than as another tool to solve problems, not as a profession.
Critical thinking and problem solving skills were always more important to learn. Knowing the right questions to ask, and having the ability to know when someone was "stretching the truth" or outright lying to your face.
There are other far more valuable computer tracks than programming, like Network Security specialties. Design, and architecture that pay far more than programming.
Let me guess. The other 50% believe Bible Studies is the most important subject for their children? lol
The vast majority just don't have the kind of mind that's required for writing code. Just like the vast majority of people don't have the mind that's required to create great art. It's a somewhat specialized skill. You can shove people unprepared for it into the discipline, but you'll just wind up with crummy code and unhappy developers.
What we _should_ be pushing more for is more critical thinking skills, a more evidence based approach to the world, trying to get multiple perspectives on each issue, and a tool based approach to Math rather than "we should LOVE math for maths sake".
I think that's unlikely to happen because it's a direct challenge on the authoritarianism of schools. If critical thinking skills were taught, kids might challenge the authority of the school! Evidence based thinking is also a challenge to authority based thinking, and so is having multiple conflicting perspectives. Changing math into a tool based approach instead of pure math challenges math teachers, who also grew up just "like math" not for what it can tell us, but for math itself.
It's all a large system that's designed to perpetuates itself. It's unlikely to ever be overturned.
Why wouldn't they? Everybody has been telling them that.
In reality, the tech firms want to flood the market to push down wages.
According to a Microsoft-commissioned survey, 50% of parents in the U.S. with children aged 18 and under believed coding and computer programming to be the most beneficial subject to their child's future employability
The most beneficial.... So more beneficial than learning the English language (or whatever their location's main language of communication is) and how to properly communicate their thoughts and ideas?
Isn't MS Philanthropies an oxymoron ??
Computer science would be a great thing to teach kids. Boolean, propositional, first/second order logic, formalized proof, computational complexity; all good and valuable things to learn - tools that anyone can use to help understand the world in which they live (why do some ops in Excel take so long with big sets and others don't?)
Coding is fucking worthless. If you can't do all of the above, everyone's going to be wasting their time trying to teach you coding.
...I can say that story telling (I mean *YOU* reading a book of children strories to them every evening), practicing sports and exploring nature together has been very beneficial to my children. They both grew developing a deep and wide way of thinking, are very skilled in math and are committed to take a science career like their father. Oh, I almost forgot...they spent ZERO time in front of a computer and very little time in front of a TV set during their early youth.
1st off lets get some other stuff right
the usa world avg math rank blows donkey balls ...
YOU are running around earth playing soldier and that don't require counting
your avg world science skills are also slipping
and reading its 39th in world....
canada in reading is 2nd they also kick your ass in math and science
EVEN VIETNAM BEATS YOUR ASS
http://factsmaps.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-math-science-reading/
so until you get these scores in top 10 ...stay away from programming please YOU SUCK
What about nunchuck skills,
bow hunting skills,
and computer hacking skills?
Coding as an academic subject. Important to understanding many of the systems that drive modern life? Yes. Should be included in required school curricula moving forward? Yes. More important than reading, writing, math, science, critical thinking, history, psychology and economics? No.
Suuuure. Because government has done such a wonderful job with the horrible public school system.
But I will give you this - in either case your kids are getting brainwashed.
everything they know about coding they learned from Hollywood movies.
What is easier for companies... helping prepare the next generation of American workers by ensuring they get a good education in... whatever... or hiring H2B visa workers that have whatever skill they want at a lower rate than the US rate?
They'll never care so long as you let them do that.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
I'm a coder.
I've been coding since the mid-1970's.
These parents are all wrong.
Coding is dead.
Not yet but soon there will be no need for coders.
10 years, maybe less.
It's going to become a gourmet thing.
Something people do for fun perhaps.
Like art but not as a profession.
Getting kids into coding is not preparing them for a future career.
It's a great introduction to thinking clearly.
But be realistic.
tech companies have been doing a non-stop ad blitz to get kids to code. As somebody in IT the first thing I tell anyone who asks is "Don't send you're kids to IT, a Math degree is fine but no programming".
American companies don't hire rank and file code monkeys anymore. They outsource or use H1-Bs if they need somebody onshore. The last thing on earth you should do is go to school for programming. Yes, there are still top end programming jobs in cryto and security, but that's not really programming, it's math. A math degree is fine (albeit probably the hardest one out there). But skip comp-sci. Go be a nurse or something.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
This is the result of big name tech companies dumping money in to flooding markets they don't want to pay high salaries for. When they're also advising the gov't what do you expect? You live in a corporate oligarchy. Money decides all things.
Silicon Valley has been paying the media to hype a shortage of qualified coders, in their efforts to convince Congress to allow more H-1bs. Just like the media were paid in the late 90s, for pushing a trade deal with China as 'historic'. The media is a bunch of mercenary propagandists.
You prefer the current system where they just use H1 b's to get what they need instead?
Before I retired, I said that there were three knids of bosses:
1. Those that have a decent understanding of the software development process. These are good people to work for.
2. that that know nothing about software. These are really OK to work for because they will generally listen to the technically competent.
3. Those who have written a 50 line program in BASIC. These bosses are dangerous because they think they understand programming.
For today's world s/BASIC/Java/g
I'm afraid the teach everyone will result in a lot of Class 3 types.
Um, guys? Supporting your schools is called Paying Your Taxes. Stashing billions in profit overseas is not helping.
Thank you,
All the rest of us
produced the results they paid for
film at 11.
___
the basics, reading, reading comprehension, writing, basic math and science, history, civics, all more important than 'coding'. health and art and music, ffs, also more important than 'coding.
You want to get kids excited about programming. The problem is you need to get the right kind of kid excited. Back in the late 70's - early 90's computers either came with a programming language as part of the OS (BASICA, GWBasic, QBasic, etc..) or were the OS (Tandy Extended Basic, Commodore Basic, etc..). This spawned a whole generation of kids that could program (including myself which I used to do as a career and now as a hobby). It takes the right kind of person to get excited about programming. The problem is there is no exposure to programming at an early enough age because computers don't include a programming language any longer. HoC (hour of code) is a joke and forcing all students to take programming in school will not work either. What's needed is coding classes for students that already have the programming bug. I blame Microsoft for the current failure to produce enough competent coders. Their monopoly of the OS and utter lack of future thinking by not including a coding language with Windows was criminal. Now companies like Microsoft want to fix this? Give me a break.
Include an easy to learn and use language with every computer (not that Scratch crap either) and you'll start to see programmers entering the scene again.
no way would I let big tech have any control over the education of my child.. they have zero responsibility and zero ethics.
Most parents are actually clueless about what is âoebestâ for their children. Most just follow whatever is trending on whatever social media outlet they favor. âoeCoding ... yeah coding must be it.â
There isn't a day that goes by where I don't come across a person (usually influential politicians) that doesn't understand even basic economic principles. Even something as basic as Econ 101 Supply-Demand concepts.
Hell! If I could just burn into every student's brain the idea of: it can be cheap, fast, or good -- but you can only have (at most) two of the three, I would call it a win for the future of society.
CS (or more to the point SE) will never be a universal subject because it requires an autistic level of attention to detail to do it correctly. That doesn't suit most people's personalities. When it comes to software the rule still applies -- it can be cheap, fast, or good (pick 2).
Lots of people that weren't really into coding learned how to be shitty coders, and got their relevant piece of paper about the time the market for coders went to shit.
The shitwinds are blowin....
Programming is commonly understood as a trade-school skill, and there seems to be a belief that highly paid developers have their jobs because they got into the right school, knew the right people, or are the right color and gender. Somehow it's understood that not every child can get a 5 on the AP calculus exam, get an invitation to the all-state orchestra, or run a five-minute mile, but there's little understanding of the ability and practice needed to land a highly paid position as a software developer. So they see that ordinary-looking people that no one paid much attention to in high school are drawing six-figure salaries and think "My kid should do that". We will see a surge in popularity of programming classes for a few years until there's a general understanding that it's hard. Still there are people who could do well but are currently not getting an opportunity, and I hope that improves.
For some reason, people see coding as a way to write programs. I don't understand that.
I am a computer engineer and can say that ever since learning how to code, I've routinely used coding as a means to solve problems - one time problems.
I code to code. If I'm editing code that I know has a pattern to it (almost everything does), I find it faster to throw the pattern into a macro than to use manual means - even for one time use. Because of this, I prefer editors with macro languages that look like regular programming languages.
While working on large scale projects, I write code to detect errors, often project-specific, that I've seen repeated and incorporate it into the check-in process. I also often write a precompiler that incorporates some language extensions to cover common project coding patterns.
I code to perform a quick calculation. I code to answer virtually any complicated question involving math. I find it quicker to code than to use a calculator and with coding if I make a mistake, I can fix it rather than starting over. Usually, I do this in a spreadsheet though, unlike most, I am quick to dive into the macro interface. If no spreadsheet is available, I find that most good command line interfaces have quick calculation ability and there is always perl from the command line.
I code documents. I actually prefer MS Word because I use the macro capabilities with virtually every decent sized document I write. And documents with regular patterns are usually easier to create from databases using merge macros.
In my personal life, when I dive into doing a drawing to imagine how some room would look with furniture or a painting scheme, I use a CAD program that lets me code the drawing. I find it much faster, more precise, and vastly easier to tweak a drawing that is coded than to use the mouse interface.
I often explore topics in the news by writing some code to do quick little simulations or run the numbers for a sanity check.
To put it simply, coding has become a very valuable way to solve problems of all sorts in my life. It is my version of scratching stuff out on napkins.
I think it would be even more valuable if it had been ingrained into me at the earliest levels and been a tool that I used in all of my classes that involved any sort of problem solving - and note clearly that I see writing as an engineering problem solving operation too. I cannot think of a class that wouldn't benefit from coding. Even art. I have coded art many times.
PowerBuilder, anyone?
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
At the very least, it lets kids test and visualize things faster and trains them in formal languages and logic. But for kids that don't like math, forget coding.
That said, what these parents mean is probably "something with computers that isn't Facebook".
How about they just pay some taxes- that will help the schools.
Speaking as a former software engineer who is now a k-12 coding instructor, the justification for this initiative is unlocking student creativity and potential. Teaching kids some block-based coding skills through Code.org or Scratch and helping them to build some basic games unleashes a torrent of creativity. It unlocks their imagination and improves their problem solving skills as they learn to craft and debug more complex programs.
I'm amazed almost every week at the things my students come up with after some minimal guidance and instruction. No, most of them will never become professional coders or compete for your job, but most will have a better understanding of the increasingly digital world we live in and be able to imagine or even create new ways to interact with it. It's not a coding cure-all, but it is a worthy initiative and for some kids, it can be a game-changer.
CS done right is expensive. Given that education (the teaching bit), has been slowly but systematically gutted since the hey day of the 60â(TM)s, it beggars belief that if CS is to be an area of effort that it will be funded in any meaningful manner.
50% of people are of below-average intelligence
Wouldn't it make more sense to go back to teaching students art? Sure, they aren't likely to be a professional ever, but some form of art is accessible to virtually everybody.
Writing and improv in particular are extremely cheap to get started in and you can go as far as you like.
When I was in high school, we were taught typing, and there was this assumption that everyone should learn MS Word and MS Excel. I never understood why these tools would be useful, and moreso didn't know why anyone would ever need training to use them anyway.
This seems like the same thing to me. People who don't know what coding is or accomplishes assume that because they keep hearing that coding is a critical path to the future that all kids will need it. They won't. There's a future where AI will handle the mundane task of translating human desire into code, but that future will be written by the programmers of today. The programmers of tomorrow likely won't be using the tools we use today, and very likely will need a different skillset.
My oldest son has gone to university dual majoring in math and physics. He knows enough python to run interesting calculations when he needs them, but it's not his primary focus or interest. I think a solid foundation in math and science will prepare him for whatever's next. I don't think that what's next is what was next 20 years ago though.
- Vincit qui patitur.
Coincidentally 50% of parents are also dumber than average.
The first mistake here is to call it "coding". Writing the code is the last step of a long way, and arguably the least difficult one. A parallel you could give to the non-techs is building a house, coding would be the bricklaying part. Yes, it has to be done, but it's arguably the part that earns the least amount of money. What comes before is planning, designing, logistics and probably a lot more steps that I, as someone who doesn't build houses for a living, won't even think about. Programming is quite similar.
With the main difference that writing the code isn't a big enough part that you would usually hire people to even do it and instead you just do it yourself.
The next problem is that people only see the likes of Torvalds or Brin and think that all they really do is push a few buttons and "write code", and that it should be possible to simply teach this. What they omit is that not only is "this computer stuff" way different than law or economy, fields where rote learning does actually get you somewhere. Unfortunately, since solving problems that have already been solved is useless in this field (unlike the aforementioned economy or law where solving the same problems over and over is pretty much a staple of the field), you actually have to understand what you're doing. At least if you want to make it big.
And that's the next problem people omit. Those that really strike it big don't treat this as a 9 to 5 job, where they drop the pencil (or the keyboard) at 5, go home and never think about computers until the next day at 9am when they have to again. We don't have to think about computers. We want to. We enjoy solving mathematical problems and coating them in code. We enjoy watching a well written program execute and do its job. We don't think "when is that project finally done" but "hope I have some time left to improve this bit here".
THAT is the difference. That differentiates those that won't from those that can and do.
And that is not different from any other field. A surgeon will not be a sought after specialist if he doesn't constantly improve his skills, in his spare time and at his own expense. A star lawyer isn't someone who does the same shit every day but someone who takes every new law that he comes across and ponders long and hard how to abuse. And a great marketing guru isn't the guy that runs the same campaign over and over but someone who understands trends and uses them to put his product on top of it.
THIS is the key to success. Not studying the flavor of the month field because this is where the money is. The money is, and has always been, in being one of the few really GOOD ones in your field.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well about the same proportion actually believed that electing a known criminal psychopath and child abuser as president would somehow make america great again (whatever the fuck that means). So yeah, I'd say this is further proof that americans actually have lost it.
The rest of us, not so much. Sorry millennials, but except for in your own minds, you aren't the majority of anything.
You can no more make 50% of the population good computer programmers than you can make 50% of the population symphony class musicians.
You can't make everyone a "symphony orchestra"-class musicion.
But music is an art that plays an important part in human culture.
And thus it's good to at least have some rudimental ideas what music is.
Hence, music classes are thaugh in school, so everybody has an idea what this thing is. (Then, some - those that have a bit of talent, and a lot of perseverance - might go on and make career in music).
Same here. You can't make a Linus Torvalds or John Carmack out of 50% of the population.
But computer (and other similar smart electronics) play a crucial part in today's life.
And thus it's good to at least have some rudimental ideas of how computer work, and what you can do with them.
Hence, coding classes should be taugh in school, so everybody has an idea what this thing is. (Then, some could manage to make a career. The rest will just go on being users of the tech, but with at least some understanding how it works).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Software evolved from assembly code to C and then java. (this is just an example path)
With each step, it got WAY easier to write software. Meaning less people needed. So costs dropped and jobs grew as the cost dropped while benefit of software was static.
Here's the issue. Eventually, software will get so easy to write that . I'm not saying how this will happen. Just saying that eventually, software will be an order of magnitude easier to author and when that happens, the costs drop more and benefits the same but at some point, the ease of software development will result in FEWER jobs. We won't even be able to fall back on Uber because they'll eventually replace human drivers with software.
We are the only people in a career where our job is to make ourselves extinct. It's when, not if.
I hate that big tech is involved in my sons school day. Most of his coursework is now done on chrome-books, but nobody can tell me what happens to the huge amount of data he generates by using the Chromebook 6 hours a day in a controlled setting.
The best I get from google is, "We will not use this data to target ads on the chrome-book."
This is such a bullshit lawyer line it makes me sick. I didn't ask what you are NOT doing with the data, and I never cared about where you use the data.
I want to know what you are using this data for, how closely are you watching the kids, how much money are you making with it, how does this effect the curriculum, and how anonymous is it?
These questions should be CLEARLY answered if I am not given a choice of device, and the answers updated every time the school extorts licensing costs for these devices from parents.
Last year I showed my boy how a VPN works, explained the way encryption messes with surveillance, and taught him the value of privacy and his personal information. Days later he says they found his VPN breadcrumbs, and threatened to call me because of his actions. I told him to tell them to go head and call. School starts in 2 days here. This year I'm going to see about bringing our own device- it's all just connecting to google services with chrome anyway.
I get how these devices make it easier on already spread thin teaching staff, interactivity keeps the students engaged, money saved on paper... I understand all of that, but it's not a net win if we are teaching our children to throw away personal privacy, and embrace invasive surveillance in the classroom- it's a net loss.
You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
What Tech companies should do is offer to teach kids what they need to know once they are out of collage. Or even right out of high school, offer them a job that will train them while helping to pay for their classes.
Though if we can kick out leftists from the schools and replace them with tech companies, that would at least be a huge improvement. leftists just want to keep kids dumb so they can get their vote. A good education makes a kid a Republican. Otherwise it takes years for them to realize the left is the wrong choice.
Posting about how important it is for school children to code has been elevated to a form of trolling. Next time you are tempted to post "Microsoft study concludes ... schools ... coding" or "Zuckerberg ... kids ... programming", stop. Think. And take your hands of the mouse.
Programmers get so wrapped up in their specialty that they believe their own BS. 20 years ago I also used to think that people who used other languages were somehow less intelligent or underskilled. When one's sense of reality becomes this distorted truly stupid ideas such as "math is hard", "not everyone can write code" or my favorite "women can't code" get said in public. As if the general public could not follow a recepie or participate in an assembly line. Specialists are usually the first ones I nail in technical interviews because their inflexible thinking has missed important changes in the tech they supposedly know. This lack of adaptability is why some CS grads just can't find work. Degrees and certifications don't make good coders, drive and a hunger to learn does.
What is more important?
Learning to "code" or learning personal finance that one would use nearly every day of their lives?
thats fuckall in CA. like minimum wage. they'll be taking toilet scrubber jobs to augment their incomes so they could afford a 650sq ft cube to live in.
A shocking number of yoing people believe that centalized control of the economy and radically expanded socialism would benefit the USA.
Also young children believe disarming the population leaving them defenseless makes them safer, completely disregarding the lessons of all human history.
Children need to learn the Values of the Bill of Rights and all amendments, as well as how to defend their own civil rights, avoid exploitation, and how to identify the false teachings of communism and other dangers to our Free Republic.
It is insane - but has already begun: https://www.biztimes.com/2018/ideas/educationworkforce-development/gateway-technical-college-launches-two-foxconn-related-programs/
Financial Literacy. No one has a real understanding on how money works, and how to make money work. Its just magic stuff that gets you what you want. If people have a better education in it, they could then make their own best decisions impacting their own finances and everything connected to it.
That just worked out great for OK now didn't it. Get out of my public schools.