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Some Students Say Having To Speak in Front of the Class is an Unreasonable Burden For Those With Anxiety and Are Requesting Alternative Options (theatlantic.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: For many middle and high school students, giving an in-class presentation was a rite of passage. Teachers would call up students, one by one, to present their work in front of the class and, though it was often nerve wracking, many people claim it helped turn them into more confident public speakers. "Coming from somebody with severe anxiety, having somebody force me to do a public presentation was the best idea to happen in my life," one woman recently tweeted. According to a recent survey by the Association of American Colleges and Universities, oral communication is one of the most sought-after skills in the workplace, with over 90 percent of hiring managers saying it's important. Some educators also credit in-class presentations with building essential leadership skills, and increasing students' confidence and understanding of material.
But in the past few years, students have started calling out in-class presentations as discriminatory to those with anxiety, demanding that teachers offer alternative options. This week, a tweet posted by 15-year-old high school student declaring "Stop forcing students to present in front of the class and give them a choice not to" garnered over 130,000 retweets and nearly half a million likes. A similar sentiment tweeted in January also racked up thousands of likes and retweets. And teachers are listening.
But in the past few years, students have started calling out in-class presentations as discriminatory to those with anxiety, demanding that teachers offer alternative options. This week, a tweet posted by 15-year-old high school student declaring "Stop forcing students to present in front of the class and give them a choice not to" garnered over 130,000 retweets and nearly half a million likes. A similar sentiment tweeted in January also racked up thousands of likes and retweets. And teachers are listening.
It scared the crap out of me, but I came out of my shell with encouragement from some kindly teachers.
It's a rite of passage because in life, we have to be brave about many things. Not just big stuff like warfare and hurricanes, but life choices and eventually confronting mortality (put it off as long as you can).
We need to raise people to overcome their disadvantages, not revel in them. We can be compassionate and help them do so, but they need this ability to be brave and we need them to have it.
Alternative Right.
I have history anxiety.
I have grammar anxiety.
I have science anxiety.
I have PE anxiety - in spades.
Can I just go home now?
I just asked my 14 year old, who has social anxiety. Even he realizes that it is an important skill to have experience with, even though it scares the crap out of him. This seems to be a 'bubble wrapped child' problem.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
"Stop forcing people to interview in front of employers and give them a choice not to".
Learning should include uncomfortable situations.
I'm a 40-something who just went back to school for another BS degree. I can't believe how many 18-20 somethings are *addicted* to their phones. It's much, much worse than I suspected. A lot of these kids freak out at doing *anything* that isn't an "app" on their phones. It's a really big societal problem that parents need to be aware of and address as early as possible.
I don't respond to AC's.
I have an opposite fear: Sometimes I have to sit in an audience while someone who knows diddly squat about Open Source gives a speech about it (or even a keynote), and I would really like to engage them right in front of the audience and point out all of their mistakes, but in general that doesn't work for the audience. I just hate to sit through those things. About my most productive response was to write this in response to a completely clueless speaker.
But how did I become a speaker? I had a neurological deficit resulting in a speech impediment and coordination problems. Throughout 1-12th grade, I took at least 10 years of either instruction from a speech pathologist or year-after-year enrollment in the school's rhetoric class (which wasn't really addressing a problem in speech pathology). So, any fear of audiences was beaten out of me.
Most people hate and fear being in front of an audience. For some, the solution really is for them to one-on-one with a teacher. But for most, the solution would be early instruction that makes them more comfortable with the situation. The sink-or-swim method of just putting them in the front of the room is probably not the right way.
Bruce Perens.
Ya, in 20 years when you're too afraid to walk out the door, you be demanding that "universal basic income" because you never developed communication or personal skills and it's society's fault -you're just another victim.
Just when you thought the snowflake generation couldn't possibly get any softer... they pull some shit like this.
Not just with standing in front of the class, but with dealing with humanity in general. Or technology, really.
Alternative Right.
Some other students say that having to clean their room and do homework before playing video games is an unreasonable burden for those with phat loot to grind.
Seriously, I hated speaking in front of the class, being forced to do it made me a better person.
Communication skills are critical in today's world, public speaking is a part of this and it's a vitally important skill. You need to learn that others rarely judge yourself as harshly as you do - everyone else is wrapped up in their own lives. Those that judge you don't matter and those that matter don't judge you. The sooner you realise this, the better your life will be.
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
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Think that life is going to be easy and they will never have to speak in front of people. Man do they have a wake up call coming when they have to get a job. Imagine even having to get thru an interview with the social skills of your typical basement dweller.
What if those great thinkers became the great thinkers they were because they were pushed into uncomfortable situations constantly from a young age?
Had they been allowed to retreat into their shells and play gameboy (or insert era appropriate menial diversion here) would they have amounted to anything?
Struggle is what leads to character, maybe a bit of social anxiety is actually a gift.
That work should have already been done in K-12. If you come to university and you're lazy, it's best if you go try to become a YouTube star and let the rest of us get on with it.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Social anxiety is not a terminal diagnosis. If people have severe social anxiety we should help them with treatment so they aren't crushed by it. The only "penalty" would be withholding the skill and experience necessary to help them overcome or at least better cope with their social anxiety.
There are 2 elements to consider here:
1) A students score in an academic subject should not depend on their public speaking comfort and performance. Think about that. It makes good sense. Why does your science research project mark depend on 'eye contact' and not saying 'um' ? That's as ridiculous an grading a mathematics assignment on your singing voice and fashion sense.
2) Public speaking, and speaking in front of others is an important life skill and students need to learn how to do it; and should not be excused from doing it, even if it makes them uncomfortable.
Reconciling this really shouldn't be that hard. Separate the academic marks from the public speaking/presentation marks. Your science mark is what you know in science. Offer separate classes in public speaking and debate etc. Still HAVE the science presentations though, but apply your science presentation "presentation performance" mark to the other course. So no matter how badly you blow the presentation performance it doesn't affect your science mark; that's graded on the content you hand in.
People with anxiety will struggle in this 2ndary course; but at least it doesn't affect their academic marks. I'd say this 2ndary course should be mandatory -- public speaking is an important life skill that people need to do, but i extreme cases could be excused.
Yes, there will be lazy-ass bonespur children who just use this as an excuse to get out of a difficult assignment
But laziness is not why people feel reluctant to present, it's anxiety. A lot of people (myself very much included) just need that push to actually do the presentation, and then figure out that it's not quite as horrible an experience as anticipated; but if given the option we'd just as soon not do it in the first place. Of course everyone is different, but it seems to me this is not about recognising difference as much as it is about helping people to overcome their fears and gain skills that will be really beneficial to them in life.
Some of our most brilliant authors, scientists, mathematicians, etc were people who had crushing social anxiety and it would be a damn shame to penalize them so early in the game because of it.
Sure, but the best of those were the ones that didn't let their social anxiety get in the way of doing great things; in order to do that they had to figure out how to deal with it. Choosing to opt out doesn't seem like a real way of dealing with it to me.
First, I was very uncomfortable with presentations when I was in school. I even dread the "Introduce, and say something about yourself." If I am a subject expert then I am fine with presentations; if I am not presenting as a subject expert then it is still painful, we are talking cold sweat and strong stress indicators level of painful. I will frequently choose to not go to events and meetings where I will be forced to speak. So, yes, I do understand.
Secondly, having students speak is boring. I really don't want to listen to the same thing over and over again.
However, it is in my state curriculum and I am required, by the district, to have a public speaking component in all of my classes.
One time I made a mistake, A student said, in class, "What happens if I don't get up and speak?"
I told him that he would get a zero on that portion of the overall score. He replied with "Oh, Ok, I'll take a zero." It was infectious, all through the room as I called on students the response when it was their turn was to say "I'll take a zero too." This was done in a cheerful tone. They felt, and stated to others that they had outsmarted me, all they had to do was take a zero. I heard about this from another teacher because several students were laughing about it in her class.
At this point they receive a zero and they wait in the office. Do I like doing it? No; but I am required to have a public speaking component in all of my classes. That is non-negotiable.
Not even university. At the community college I work for I often ask myself in meetings "are we working with adults in college or are we going to treat them like it is grade 13 and 14?"
What is sad is that we have dual enrollment students - juniors and seniors in high school who are completing half or all of an AA degree by the time they finish high school, real college credits not AP courses. Often times, they are more on the ball and in with it than the "traditional" students. Most older folks who are working and doing school are usually on top of things, and students in the military or just out of the military are extremely well organized and on top of their school work (no surprise).
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Being able, as a human, to speak to other humans should be a required skill to graduate from public school. I don't think that's at all unreasonable. The number of kids today who have *anxiety* is either a direct result of phone addiction, or it's bullshit, or we've changed the definition of the word "anxiety" in the past few decades, and I didn't realize it. I think it's 100% fine to make children be able to speak to other children, in order to graduate high school.
I don't respond to AC's.
It seems to me in middle school and high school we teach everyone a little bit of math, a little bit of science, a little bit of English, a little bit art, etc. Some people enjoy math and are good at it. Some people don't like math and aren't very good at it. People who don't like math shouldn't major in math at a university, but I think it makes sense for everyone to learn a little math, a little English, etc. Everyone should have some basic competency.
Same with making a presentation - not everyone enjoys doing that, and like it's good for everyone to learn a bit of math, it's probably good for everyone to do a couple of presentations and gain a tad bit of very basic competency. Most jobs will require a presentation at some point, every job will require taking a deep breath and and doing something you're not 100% comfortable with. Asking for a raise sure does, at most any job. Some basic competency in doing presenting, and a little bit of experience doing something that isn't easy, seems like a really beneficial thing.
Don't mistake normal anxiety with the kind suffered by students with a real anxiety disorder. It's not hard to tell the difference. After a few years, it was easy to determine. After a few decades, it was second nature.
You are welcome on my lawn.
In the U.S. we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, which I'm sure applies here. Schools have to make reasonable accommodations for disabilities.
A student/parent should be able to ask for a reasonable accommodation if public speaking is likely to trigger some serious negative outcome, legitimately CAN'T reasonably perform the task (e.g. severe speech impediment, etc.) etc.
But this seems to be asking for more. That it makes a student "uncomfortable" doesn't rise to the need for reasonable accommodation.
I wonder how many of these students have no problem at all making YouTube Videos, live-streaming on their favorite social platform, or entertaining their friends in person with their latest misadventures?
Maybe a remedial program to "bridge" these "skills" to the valuable skill of public speaking...
If you can't stand up in front of me and explain why I should hire you, maybe you should apply at McDonalds.
If I interview you part will be explaining something to me with a pen and a whiteboard. Communication skills are non-negotiable.
...laura
Who said anything about liking public speaking? You don't have to like it, you just have to *do* it. One of those life skills that, unless you never have to interview in your life, is going to come in handy no matter how much you hate it.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
I've become accomplished at public speaking, but I understand where these students are coming from. Part of it is that some students are just facing too much stress, and having to speak out in class is just too much especially since some of these students don't really have the skills to deal with the stress.
Yeah, it's a fact of life _later_ in life. But there's no reason to be harsh on everyone who has a fear of it and make them go up right away. How about instead have counsellors for students to help them deal with these issues, and let students speak in class when they are ready. Sometimes, throwing someone in the deep end is actually too much.
"What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
If somebody has trouble in that area, perhaps special classes or work-shops can be provided whereby the student works their way up: speak to progressively bigger groups/crowds for progressively longer times rather than dive into the deep end on Day One.
We all have weak areas that we probably need special classes and/or assistance with.
I've seen no definitive evidence that traumatizing children makes them better adults, and perhaps has a net negative impact. Barring clear evidence for either side of the cowboy-vs-coddle debate, I believe my suggestion is reasonable and common-sense. However, it does require resources that poorer students and/or districts cannot afford.
Table-ized A.I.
Honestly, if you've got to your Junior year in high school and still hate public speaking then you're going to hate it for life.
Just one data point to the contrary, I hated speech class in high school though I don't remember if I took it junior or senior year. I definitely didn't want to be up in front of the class talking about anything. Now I enjoy speaking at conferences, provided that the topic is in my area of interest and expertise.
I would say that I started enjoying public speaking sometime after college.
Any scientist or engineer must be able to clearly and correctly explain things in front of an audience, even if that audience is larger. If somebody has anxiety (a serious mental condition, no argument) then they must find a way to still be able to do presentations to a group and interact with that group during and after the presentation or they will not be able to fulfill the requirements for the qualification they are aiming for. Sorry, no exceptions. You can't do it, you are not qualified.
I am all for helping them finding a solution or a workaround to the anxiety, but the presentation skills are a hard requirement.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Indeed. If we all limited "work" to only things we like, not a lot of it would get done. An academic degree is a sign that you can read and write documents and that you can present things in front of people. For some degrees, that is the most important final job qualification. You must be able to competently do it. You are not required at all to "like" it. And yes, I know what anxiety looks like. You may be tripping sweat and shaking while doing this. You still need to be able to do it and that can only be achieved with practice. If you later go for a career where you have to do this only rarely, not a problem at all.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
The article doesn't appear to be talking about anxiety disorders. These aren't kids with a note from their doctor or something diagnosed. They're near-adults complaining that âoeNobody should be forced to do something that makes them uncomfortable"
Further, isn't âoeExposure therapyâ commonly used as a behavior therapy to help treat anxiety disorder?
Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
While I was going to College one of the best things I ever did for myself was get myself promoted to a supervisor on the front end of the grocery store I worked in. Yeah, it was constant panic attack for me for a while but within an admittedly lengthy period (most people wouldn't have taken as long and I was put on discipline a few times for making mistakes due to my nerves and was literally almost fired) I had that shit nailed and coming out of that I am far more well adjusted. After that experience I intentionally put myself through my rate of panic attacks drop to record lows and nowadays I literally just don't get them. In fact, for some absurd reason people generally regard me as an extrovert nowadays.
Now trust me, it fucking sucked ass initially but honestly I regard that move as equally valuable as the degree I got going to college. Also, don't get me wrong here, there are people that have very legitimate psychological issues well above and beyond what I used to have and my trial by fire experience might even be harmful for those types. Ultimately though, those people really are the minority and most shy people just need to force themselves out of their shells.
Shy people: The simple fact is you'll be far happier forcing yourself out of your shell. It will be awkward hell at first but humans are inherently social creatures. Ultimately, we need social contact to thrive.
Also, your sex life will probably be better in the end.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
>A meaningless kind of role-playing. ... and you just described 90% of high school. The entire environment is horribly artificial, and generally manages to completely miss the point of even the education. Knowledge rots without usage, and it's a rare class that teaches you the skills to effectively use that knowledge outside of class.
I am sorry nobody challenged you to make your presentations worth the time to listen to, much less prepare. I seriously doubt you had any presentations that were literally regurgitating classroom content, where a little independent research couldn't have added a great deal of additional information and classroom merit (and maybe even improved your grade). I had some teachers early on that made it clear that was the *point* of giving a presentation, and never encountered one in all my years that objected. I was shy and pretty much always hated having to give presentations, but at least I learned early on that the point was to practice conveying information, wish I had caught on earlier that it was also about engaging the audience. If you can engage an initially utterly indifferent classroom audience about an arbitrary topic... that's a skill set that will serve you well whenever you need to convey information or influence decisions. Sort of throwing you into the lion's den on that front, but it's a large enough audience that you can probably interest at least one or two enough to pay attention. Probably help if there were an explicit speech-giving course squeezed in there at some point.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
I had to present my grad school research to a smallish group of people once. So I got up there and did all the typical smooth talker thing, the opposite of how I really am, hand waving, always sounding confident, etc. Afterwards they shook my hand and said it was a good talk. When they left I then told my prof that I was nervous since I hadn't prepared as much as I should have and was winging most of it. She blew up and told me I wasn't being professional, yada yada yada. But it worked. I can still pull out that character and put on a good handwaving show when I need to, or even when listening remember to ask relevant questions to make up for the fact that I wasn't paying as much attention as I should. It's a useful skill.
(Later the prof was upset I hadn't signed up for a local conference, and she said "it doesn't matter if you're interested in the topic or not, you need to get out there and schmooze!" Good advice that's better to learn earlier than later.)
Are you forcing the athletes to do calculus in front of the class?
Are you forcing a couple of geeks to get up the front and juggle?
Then what the fuck is this bullshit where you penalize the introverts that tend to be the ones that actually DO everything while the extroverts talk to each other about it?
Honestly, if you've got to your Junior year in high school and still hate public speaking then you're going to hate it for life.
I hold myself up as a counter example.
I hated public speaking in secondary school (Junior year is same as lower 6th in teh UK I think), and I certainly wasn't fond of it by that age. These days, I both like it and am decent at it. The education I got in school did take it from bloody awful to merely bad. The intervening few decades sanded off a good bit of the remaining badness.
If a big enough carrot is dangled (or a stick) you might get over it, but rather than spending time hoping for a carrot that might never come the kid's time is probably better spent being left the fuck alone to study.
There was neither a big carrot or stick. Everyone was expected to stand up and do it. Maybe the stick was the social pressure? Looking back that was one of the more valuable things in school, more so than the majority of the studying there.
Turns out people often benefit from being pushed out of their confort zones.
And having sat through far too many awful buisness presentations, I think we could do with much much more pblic speaking training.
SJW n. One who posts facts.