Slashdot Mirror
Why Huawei Gives the US and Its Allies Security Nightmares (technologyreview.com)
Perhaps the most insightful piece that sums up why the U.S. and its allies are apprehensive of using Huawei's products. Six reasons, we are just highlighting the pointers, click on the source story to read the description:
1. There could be "kill switches" in Huawei equipment.
2. ... That even close inspections miss.
3. Back doors could be used for data snooping.
4. The rollout of 5G wireless networks will make everything worse.
5. Chinese firms will ship tech to countries in defiance of a US trade embargo.
6. Huawei isn't as immune to Chinese government influence as it claims to be.
1. There could be "kill switches" in Huawei equipment.
2. ... That even close inspections miss.
3. Back doors could be used for data snooping.
4. The rollout of 5G wireless networks will make everything worse.
5. Chinese firms will ship tech to countries in defiance of a US trade embargo.
6. Huawei isn't as immune to Chinese government influence as it claims to be.
7. It's competition to US products.
8. People with Huawei equipment can be spied upon by the Chinese government and not as easily by the US government.
Every point made here is just as true from the other side too. I know China is investing heavily in developing high-end microprocessor designs and manufacturing capability, but shouldn't it make strategic sense for them to also spend as much money as it takes to purge their country of Microsoft? Windows Update could be easily repurposed for espionage, and even if the US government doesn't control it yet, they could surely do so if they situation was desperate enough. I'd expect China to be throwing huge piles of money into transitioning away from Windows entirely for all military and government functions, and all major companies too. They even tried with Red Flag Linux, and that ended badly. China is striving for hardware manufacturing capability, but seems to be unconcerned over software.
That's why we are to be afraid. Guess what, your mobile mandatory location identifying device (as required by US law) is a leash.
1. There most likely are "kill switches" in $USBRAND equipment.
2. ... That even close inspections miss.
3. Back doors are already being used for data snooping.
4. The rollout of 5G wireless networks will make everything worse.
5. US firms will ship tech to countries wherever the fuck they want regardless of anything else.
6. $USBRAND isn't immune to US government influence, period.
I fail to see a problem with Huawei in particular.
pretty much, everyone in the intelligence industry worry about the stuff they are doing to other countries being done back.
Look at what they are saying that other places are likely doing, and you get a pretty good list of what they are doing to other places.
7. Huawei phones lack the backdoors that allow the US intelligence community to spy on its own people.
That's it, really. They don't trust us, not at all. You really have to wonder why? Why do they feel the need to spy on us and know what we're thinking? Our elected government made this illegal, and the intelligence community promptly broke the law and lied about it.
On March 12, 2013, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told Congress that intel officials were not collecting mass data on tens of millions of Americans. NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden soon revealed material that proved Clapper's testimony false: The government had been gathering and storing data from ordinary Americans' phone records, email and Internet use.
They don't feel any obligation to us at all. It's OK if they break the laws we passed with our elected government and lie to our faces - they don't feel safe if we can keep secrets from them. Fuck democracy, they have wars to start. If we all started buying Huawei they would feel very unsafe indeed.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Not true of iphones?
I fail to see a problem with Huawei in particular.
Are you American or from a country which might expect to be an American ally after then next year or two? If not then possibly no problem. US equipment will have similar trade-offs though possibly less risk. If you are American then you should understand that you are heading towards a geopolitical and possibly military clash with China. You both want to control and dominate the same ocean and you both rely on overseas resources heavily. Since you don't seem to be able to be polite to them you are unlikely to come to a stable agreement.
In the case of a war, hot or cold, any equipment that was produced by the other side is likely to be untrustworthy. Even if there are no backdoors, they have the engineers who understand it fully and will be able to look for every weakness they need. In this case Huawei becomes a real threat to the US, the same as ZTE, Lenovo, and almost any other company most of which use Chinese components.
Indeed, you're probably seeing "projection". There is a long history of the US doing these very things, ranging from the Siberian gas pipeline explosions to the backdoor bugging of the Greek govt and, as Snowden documented, intercepting and delivering computing equipment with NSA implants. Kettle, pot...
So this means that ... That even close inspections miss.
1. There are "kill switches" in Cisco equipment.
2.
3. Back doors in Cisco equipment are used for data snooping.
4. The rollout of 5G wireless networks will make everything worse.
5. US firms will ship tech to countries in defiance of other countries' trade embargos.
6. Cisco is a US government lap dog.
It takes one to know one. The US fears that others will do to the US what the US does to them.
I set it's a bunch of "possibilities"...
"Could be"..."Could" and so on...
Chinese firms will ship tech to countries in defiance of a US trade embargo.
Why should foreign entity obey US law is I may ask?
. Huawei isn't as immune to Chinese government influence as it claims to be
Let's remember we have the NSA that has done more or less the same, even in defiance of US law...
That's a nice piece of fake news, on par with the oft told story about the Soviet "peace" tractors that allegedly "destroyed" a million-strong Chinese invasion force in the 60s with megalasers from low Earth orbit.
I'm sure, however, that had such a thing as you described happened, it would have received ample coverage by the Indian press.
Care to find some links?
Huawei / Chinese meddling is not in any way more or less suspect than Cisco / US meddling. Everybody is a suspect. Why would/should it be otherwise?
If you're the average American (or European, for that matter), you're living paycheck to paycheck, your perspective of retiring at the end of your useful shelf life (~65, give or take) is practically zero, your children's chance of a useful education is degrading (...if you're European; it's already essentially zero of you're US), and the only perspective your offspring have in their life is to live through & possibly, maybe, try to clean up the mess the big winners of your generation are creating for all of us.
In that case, China is not your primary enemy. Your own government is, together (or better: led by?) those who Have. That's what you should be worrying about primarily.
Then. Only from the sub-continent.
1. There could be "poison" in Chinese food. ... That even close inspections miss.
2.
3. Chinese waiters could be used for snooping.
4. The rollout of Chinese restaurants will make everything worse.
5. Chinese restaurants will ship food to countries in defiance of a US trade embargo.
6. P.F. Changs isn't as immune to Chinese government influence as it claims to be.
Cisco does exactly the same.
aaaaaaa
5. Chinese firms will ship tech to countries in defiance of a US trade embargo.
Given the current POTUS I'm happy that his reach is only so far, and that it's optional for sovereign nations on whether to adhere to the US trade embargos or not.
"could"
There could be all that stuff in products from other countries, too. Heck, even American products could have these things. Maybe America should just stop trading with everyone and jump incestuously in bed with itself, and hope its own manufacturers are completely honest and transparent, just as they have turned out to be so far in history...
Could indeed... Or maybe you should do it the old fashioned way, and actually find the person guilty before executing them.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Probably the best way to keep your network security is to neither use Chinese nor US Branded equipment. Instead, employ a little do it yourself mentality. I built my own and it's powered by OpenBSD. Still no guarantee but it's a lot more secure than all of the shitty stuff out there.
3. Back doors are already being used for data snooping.
Hell, FRONT doors are already being used for data snooping. Well you clicked "I agree", right?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
And still absolutely nobody has asked themselves how Turkey happened to end up with audio recordings of the Kashoggi murder... While everyone was busy saying "oh dear that's terrible", I was thinking "lol they're going to have to change the bugs in the Saudi consulate now".
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
American ally
I believe the word you are looking for is "vassal". There are no more American allies. An ally is assumed to have some degree of independence and usually has equal status. A vassal, on the other hand, is one who never disagrees and always does as they are told. Kind of like that person we all know at work who is a complete idiot and yet somehow is always the boss's favorite and always gets promoted. That isn't the boss' friend - that IS your boss and if you cross him/her/it, you will find out pretty sharpish who is going to be transferred/fired. Hint - it's not them.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
When you think about it, nowadays you cannot trust any high-tech gadget/piece of equipment unless you 100% control each step of its development and production which is quite expensive and complicated for companies/governments however if you are an end user you have to treat everything as compromised by default and work from there. You might feel quite unnerving and powerless but that's what it is.
And why would the U.S. want shut down gas to all of Europe via a hardware back door?
Russias safe using U.S. hardware to supply Europe. Last checked, Russia voluntarily limited gas supplies to Europe during winter.
Speaking as someone from western Europe, the problem with Huawei is that in geopolitical terms China is not an ally by any stretch of the imagination. The USA are. If there's any serious trouble, we do not have to worry about the USA shutting us off unless they decide at some point that we are no longer allies. The biggest worry is that equipment from the US has some backdoor (installed on behest of the government or whatever) that the Chinese can exploit.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Somebody discovered a small plate at Donald Trump's hip. According to it, was produced by Huawei.
Don't know about you, but here around (Austria), the news were full of speculation that Turkey hesitated to publish said recordings because it would give away the places of the turkish bugs in the Saudi Arabian embassy.
To sell more liquified natural gas of course. The same reason they are trying to convince European governments to block the Nord Stream pipeline.
It's impossible to prove that Huawei (or any vendor's) equipment are malware free. But then again, it's also possible that Cisco equipment has had its firmware replaced in the factory (Chinese even) or en-route to you with "evil" firmware. But Huawei has had far more scutiny over the past few years than other network vendors. And while not "open-source" (I wish), they've had their source code more closely investigated by well-resourced, motivated and independent white-hats than other vendors over the past decade. It wouldn't surprise me if Huawei equipment is much more secure after this added scrutiny (it's much easier to detect/fix bugs with source code than without).
Frankly, if the Chinese government wanted to exploit Huawei equipment, they'd be stupid to ship modified firmware which would be easily detectable. Rather, they'd take advantage of zero-day attacks and/or other in-memory only attacks which leaves no trace. Something the NSA/GCHQ also can do (and according to Edward Snowden, has done). As an aside, that's why the now discredited Bloomberg article on hardware backdoors in Supermicro motherboards was so ridiculous. Not that it couldn't be done, but no government capable of doing so, would use such a primitive mechanism when there are other, lower-cost attacks with a lower-chance of detection and plausible-deniability.
Saying Huawei is a National Security issue because it's an economic threat to Cisco is on par with Trump alleging that steel imports from Canada is a National Security issue. Which is to say that anything can be a National Security issue if you try hard enough.
Nonetheless, the US government (and their Five-Eyes allies) has rights as a sovereign country to ban Huawei equipment and spread propaganda. It'd be surprising if they acted any differently. Cisco equipment (5 backdoors discovered in 2018 alone) has given the NSA the ability to spy on countless world leaders over the past few decades and losing that access is likely the real National Security issue.
Five-Eyes members will buy US equipment by virtue of being Five-Eyes member. For other countries, they shouldn't blindly trust Huawei. Insist from all vendors that they share their source code as well as the chain from source-code to firmware. And don't just limit to network equipment. Ask the same of your CPU/chipset vendors. Do you know what your Intel-ME/AMD-PSP is doing right now?
I look forward to having open-source firmware and hardware to complement open-source software. Sure, I can't (personally) make my own CPU, but it'll significantly reduce the barriers to entry and enable greater market competition by allowing multiple fabs to manufacture the same chip. Yay for market competition. For those worried about dominance of Shenzhen, China in the electronic industry. Open-source hardware would be a positive step in the right direction. It'll take decades, but we'll get there.
There seems to be a lack of interest in actually testing systems to see if the meet national security guidelines. Believe it or not these things are not black-boxes if people open up the cases, put them in Faraday cages. Monitor what its out put it, and traffic to see where things go, what ports are open....
You can take the chips off the board and be sure they are doing what the specs say they should be doing.
In case of Flash software, you can demand the source review it, and compile it at your country and flash it onto a device.
I know policy makers don't want to use specialists because they are these crazy egg heads who think they know it all, and will often go against their best instincts. But for national security, you probably should trust those people who have studied this stuff and understand the going on. Vs saying it it too technical let ban it.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Why are 1 and 2 the same reason broken up into two? And 4 doesn't really have anything to do with Huawei.
Commies! (Cold War feelings...)
This Oida!!!
As someone who works in the Telecom supplier market, I can assure you that all Telcos provide governments with wiretaping capabilities of their customers and that workers dedicated to this task are under strict confidentiality contracts.
Same vendors sell their equipment in Turkey too. No need for physical bugs anymore :)
Delta-Mike November Bravo Tango
From a western European perspective, neither is the US.
They've repeatedly attacked Europe economically - there's ample example, like the VW scandal (draconian fees & punishment against management by the US, but investigations are still sparse with respect to US manufacturers) and Monsanto/Bayer (funny how Monsanto's biochemistry suddenly became a problem, but only after they were bought up by a European company). Not to defend these companies, they fully deserve what befalls then; but the unilaterallity with which US authorities deal out punishment against foreign entities, opposed to domestic ones, is striking.
Then there are also a number of unequivocal statements from US administration, Trump for example, regarding "trade war with Europe".
So no, the US are definitely no more allies of Europe than China is.
And beyond ecinomics... well, if you're European, it's not like China is out to burn your home, rape your wife, kill your dog. They're on a different hemisphere for chrissake, there's noting to gain for them from indaving another, regardless of whether that's Europe or US. (FWIW, the only country that has a habit of doing that post-WW2, regularly, is the US.)
If you're the average west European, the only[*] thing China fights for is to sell you more stuff, cheaper than the rest (US or Europe). The only way you could equate this to a direct threat is if you still believe in trickle-down economy. And in that case, you're not only beyond any hope being saved; you also deserve the misery that comes your way.
--
[*] That, and to buy massive amounts of land all over Africa and eastern Europe away from local population. But that's not a problem that's (a) limited to China, (b) attributed to technological or military superiority, and (c) not easily fixable by a simple law of local government authorities, if you can convince your government that it's a problem.
Huawei 'borrowed' their 5G tech from European companies...
If you ask me, the Europeans would have to be crazy to allow themselves to be overly dependent on any of the US, Russia, North Africa, or the Middle East for fuel to keep warm in Winter. But they are capable of figuring that our for themselves I think.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Wrong... US law applies only in the US and it's territories.
If you buy a Russian domain from a Russian registrar and host it on Russian servers in Russia ... Russian law applies, obviously.
Do any of that in the US because you're careless and the US govt can touch THAT part to enforce US law.
I bet you run red lights in front of the police and wonder why YOU get tickets while your friends don't.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/cisco-backdoor-hardcoded-accounts-software,37480.html
Kinda says it all...
We already know from the Snowden leaks that the US government has the capabilities to do most of the things on that list for network gear from the likes of Cisco, HP, Juniper and other US manufacturers. And given how much more power the Chinese have over Chinese companies and their employees (unlike the US, the Chinese government has no problems telling people "do what we want or your family will be executed") its logical to assume China can do everything the US can and more.
That said, what the hell are governments and big corporations and others doing on these networks (internet, cellular etc) whereby a compromised bit of network gear is even able to steal valuable data and why aren't they encrypting anything that the Chinese (or anyone else) might want to steal?
A kill switch is actually the least of our worries. All that would do it let people know that there is one. The biggest risk is having an IC integrated in a diode casing (often overlooked because they are normally there for simple surge protection). Or an extra radio broadcaster that you don't know what it is for. These things can bet tested. You don't need to brute force all the methods, if you know what each component suppose to do.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
So no, the US are definitely no more allies of Europe than China is.
You have no sense of proportion. China lives by completely different rules. They have no respect for freedom of speech or democracy, quite the opposite, and they don't care if other countries do. The US has its flaws, but I'll take a flawed democracy over an oppressing dictatorship any day.
And beyond ecinomics... well, if you're European, it's not like China is out to burn your home, rape your wife, kill your dog. They're on a different hemisphere for chrissake, there's noting to gain for them from indaving another, regardless of whether that's Europe or US. (FWIW, the only country that has a habit of doing that post-WW2, regularly, is the US.)
No, maybe they'll just destroy all your infrastructure that's connected to the internet, including telecommuncations, power supply, and everything else that's needed in a modern society. Japan's being in a different hemisphere didn't stop them from starting an all out war with the US. If the western countries tries to do the right thing and stop China from taking areas from smaller countries in Asia then a war is not an impossibility. I assume you know that China is already doing that by creating artificial islands with military bases.
it's not like China is out to burn your home, rape your wife, kill your dog. They're on a different hemisphere for chrissake, there's noting to gain for them from indaving another, regardless of whether that's Europe or US. (FWIW, the only country that has a habit of doing that post-WW2, regularly, is the US.)
While I agree with your statement that the US has a nasty habit of invading foreign countries, China did a similar thing to Tibet "post-WW2".
Also, Russia shares the US habit of invading foreign countries, as demonstrated for example in Afghanistan and the Ukraine.
So, the basic lesson is: Don't trust any equipment that was manufactured or shipped through one of these aggressive nations.
Are you talking about User ID 14 in the Hicom 300/HiPath 4000? ;)
:P
Delta-Mike November Bravo Tango
Since Huawei makes so much telecom equipment it makes a kind of sense to be leery of that, but why all the attention given to the phones? There are dozens of other Chinese phone makers, and none of those are mentioned.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
The main fear is that Chinese equipment lacks NSA backdoors.
From the article: "In its defense, Huawei can point to the fact that no security researchers have found back doors in its products. âoeThereâ(TM)s all this concern, but thereâ(TM)s never been a smoking gun,â says Paul Triolo of the Eurasia Group. While thatâ(TM)s true, it wonâ(TM)t change the view of the US, which is stepping up its efforts to persuade its allies to keep Huawei out of all their networks."
I don't want to defend Huawei, I couldn't care less, however, this whole thing actually seems to be a baseless discrimination. Until someone can actually prove any of this, we all should call it as it is: total bullsh*t.
Some say that, well, they don't tell us, but they probably have a good reason to do this. I don't believe that, why should I, how can they demand trust without earning it first? To put it plainly, "show me the money" (Jerry Maguire), the we can talk.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I am not making excuses for Huawei, and we shouldn't make them for Microsoft, either. A few months ago, my computer was one of the many that de-authorized by Microsoft because of the bug in their servers, only for a day, but Windows 10 appears to have a kill switch.
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
It's not Huawei they "might" steal IP. They do.
By the time I had my hands on Huawei Session Border Controller documentation, the Cisco case was already well known. Cisco had accused Huawei of cloning its gear. As I read documentation for Huawei's equipment, I found the screenshots containing *Motorola*, not Huawei, quite jarring. For me it was proof. Did an editor simply search and replace, not thinking that the images would not be treated as text?
Working with a Huawei engineer, I sought to validate that standards-based network flows were implemented as specified (this was important in the context). The engineer explained that he had a tool to generate the captures. I asked him for PCAP captures, but he refused, making only the "generated" captures available. I asked what Linux distribution they were using; surely it would have tcpdump. "Huawei Linux" he said. "Of course, but what distribution is it based on? Red Hat? Debian? Slackware? RPath? Gentoo?" "No, it's just Huawei Linux." Strangely, concern over accusations of copying IP had translated into fear of being known to copy when copying was a perfectly acceptable, and even necessary, practice. I never got my captures.
In the OS scenario, Huawei was using a platform known for its openness and creating a closed one. Why would a firm go through the trouble of re-implementing network flow capture? Presumably, the operators would be prevented from using the standard tools, since they would not be installed and their Huawei replacements would be the best alternatives. Licensing and support agreements would further obscure the prevent inspection of the system; it's not the rarest of practices, but awkward for a linux-based solution.
While the story above is entirely anecdotal, it gives me everything I need to have a qualified security point of view - Huawei shouldn't get through the front door. Add to that the partial nationalization and the geopolitical concerns that any informed person should have, and it just makes the risks too high.
Even if you are really mainly exploited by the ones "who Have", there is an important choice that you should make: Do you prefer to be an average citizen in the western world, or your preference goes somewhere along the lines of China, Russia, Turkey, Azerbajan, Türkmenistan? Do you support the "dying liberal democracies", or the emerging fresh charismatic dictators who kill and enprison their opponents?
I think already made my mind.
Based on this, I can make my decision what *countries* I support. Then, -as a separate issue- we can push for a more equal society in our own respective countries.
Only use Data Handling equipment produced in the country you reside in than the only government you have to worry about is your own.
Go tell that to Kim Dot Com.
Whether you hate the guy or love him, his case is a chilling example of US over-reach.
LOL the USSR didn't buy that software, they stole it. And yes, the software was booby trapped by the CIA, who deliberately fed one of Russia's spies falty software, but it didn't do anything that you mention here. The software was built for industrial sabotage on a spectacular scale:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1455559/CIA-plot-led-to-huge-blast-in-Siberian-gas-pipeline.html
The USSR was all about stolen technology, and this is just one example of them taking more than they thought they were taking. Another one I recall was plans for a nuclear bomb that wouldn't actually work.
I am sorry, but I fail to see how destroying the independence of courts and eliminating independent media is in the interest of the common people. These things only serve the interests of Orbén and his friends, including their foreign backers who are out to disrupt and damage European countries.
Additionally, Viktor Orbén is many things, but he is most definitely not charismatic. Even his staunchest supporters will probably admit as much.
Negative. Vassals pay their liege lord for protection. What America has is precisely the opposite: allies that only ally with us because the US government pays them massive bribes in the form of aid, free military protection, unfair trade agreements, etc. I don't know what the word for that is but it certainly isn't vassal.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
And none of the accusations has been proved, whereas with american made hardware it has already been proved to contain killswitches and backdoors.. So stop pointing fingers to others if you do it yourself even worse..
They have no respect for freedom of speech
Neither does Europe.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
What is the purpose of your saying this? If it's to claim that it's all perfectly okay and no one should give a damn, then you can get fucked.
Again: If your intention here is to say "anything China or a Chinese company does is okay because XYZ does the same things" then you can get fucked. Wrong is wrong no matter who does it. Invading people's privacy is always wrong.
You are either one fucked up individual or working for Russia/China.
America DID look into American companies for diesel-gate. Not really here. Why? Because American cars are based mostly on gasoline. Very little diesel.
OTOH, VW and European cars were heavily into diesels. Now, VW was hit with a 2.8B by America for doing criminal actions. However, Germany also hit them with a fine and imprisoned a number of VW employees on this. Why? Because they were CRIMINAL.
Now, Western Europe is hitting up Google, FB, Apple and Microsoft for massive amounts of taxes and fines. Yet, all of these companies were legal with regard to their taxes. Noting was criminal. They followed the laws as the west has laid out. They have also hit these companies up for billions on actions that either were legal, but declared criminal(such as 5B against Google for supposed android monopoly), or were illegal (FB). The list goes on and on and on. Just in the last 5 years, America tech companies have been hit with something like 15B in taxes and fines, and in many cases, you did not and still do not, have laws that made them illegal.
And if you think that China is not to destroy you, then why did they dump Solar, Wind, LED/Lighting, Tires, etc on you? Why are they attempting to dump Vehicles on you, while blocking your exports to them?
And have you been paying attention to belts/roads? Yes, they will LEND you money to build infrastructure. However, you have to use Chinese companies for building the infrastructure, Chinese labor (that you must allow in and allow them to remain later), small Chinese support companies, like restaurants, shopping, etc, that supply the local economy with Chinese products. EXCLUSIVELY. In addition, the borrower must back the loans with some form of resources. For example, Ecuador #1 source of money was oil. Now, because of borrowing money from China to build a hydro dam, that was built by china and failed badly, Ecuador now GIVES 80% of their oil to China. Sri Lanka and Pakistan have give up land to China for them to build bases on because they way over-borrowed.
Oddly, you should recognize that if you are from Western Europe and have any sort of history at all. It is what Europe did for 400 years all over the globe. And America did it for about 30-40 years before we realized that it was a no-win situation. We have not been doing that since the 70's.
And America is NOT an ally? Obama did NOT want to attack Libya or any other location. France, Italy and Germany pulled the NATO card to get America to join them in the invasion. Yes America was the spearhead for this, but not by choice. It was because Europe demanded it. Sadly, that compounded middle east problems that Bush-2 had created.
Either you need to re-think your logic, or just come up with a better way of representing your gov (either Russia or China).
Have gnu, will travel.
The US has secret courts, gag orders, national security letters, prison camps outside of court's reach, and the largest per-person incarceration rate in the world.
Go on, make my day, tell me more about Hungary. I've been there. Recently.
Exterior of course they part where Kim dotcom used American banks.
China lives by completely different rules. They have no respect for freedom of speech or democracy, quite the opposite, and they don't care if other countries do
You're cherry picking.
There's no intrinsic value in the word "democracy" alone, it's value lies in what it entails: the fact that everyone gets to have their say in important decisions concerning the very fabric of their lives. If democracy is flawed to the point where unless you're rich, you've essentially been tricked out of your right to participate (as is the case for the US for example), then whatever value you had goes out the window.
Don't talk to me about "Freedom of speech" while you have people like Assange bullied and prosecuted for what they said. Taking dirty about government in a pub at the corner isn't that much of an achievement; that's something you can do in Russia or China, too, easily enough. It's when you're actually starting to reach somebody with your talk that you're in trouble - in China, Russia, and USA.
But I'm getting carried away.
More to the point, China tries, and in large parts succeeds better that the West, to not leave people behind to poverty, distress, hunger, cold. This is amazing given the situation they are in (far ovet 1bn people, most of them rural, all about to finally claim their due piece of modern age just about these years). The have different methods, many of those methods do suck. But at least they're succeeding in their goal.
Our methods suck no less, but we're failing big time, even at the easier goal of preserving a modern way of life.
so true. for everything, we are either in the front end, somewhere in the middle, or back end... true or false or none of the above. pick a lane, zig when most zag. creators create. that's me, maintainers maintain.. that's me too..somewhere in between... we ebb and flow.... where is that darn flux capacitor when you need one. then we die. who has fire insurance? moi!
The underlying problem remains: average people in the US and China have been painstakingly prepared to accept as a given that their personal information has no real value. So when they learn about this kind of grotesque invasion of privacy, their usual response is to shrug and say something like, "Who cares? The government has better things to do than check out my porn collection". That's a dangerously naive view, but it is a popular one.
It means arguments about how one side's communications tech is just as invasive as the other side's really miss the point. We are being groomed to accept the idea that it's no big deal for those in positions of power to know virtually everything about everybody.
A good farmer keeps his sheep fat and happy right up to the moment they are rounded up and sent to be sheared or butchered...or both. And yes, there are far too many average folks...sheeple...who continue to be blissfully unaware that the unprecedented scale of data collection is going to make it more and more difficult to pry our rulers out of their seats when they rewrite laws and alter social norms to suit themselves.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
"isn't immune to US government influence" is a gross understatement (I assume you were being ironic!). We know that US companies up and down the stack have been clandestinely legally compelled to compromise user security in favor of national security goals.
Software: NSA-designed Ecliptic Curve encryption algorithm adopted by companies (RSA, Microsoft, Cisco) despite widespread suspicion that they were designed with backdoors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... ...and then all the stuff Snowden exposed. Heck, even all of these 'transparency reports' are admissions that the government is forcing US companies to do things that they would prefer not too.
Meanwhile, the US have quite a history of computer hardware sabotage:
Deliberately faulty processors designed to destroy oil pipeline, resulting in huge explosion:
https://www.wired.com/2004/03/...
"Every microchip they stole would run fine for 10 million cycles, and then it would go into some other mode. It wouldn't break down, it would start delivering false signals and go to a different logic... It was a huge explosion. The Air Force thought it was a 3-kiloton blast."
so, yes, we should assume that Huawei is just as vulnerable to state manipulation and exploitation as any similar US company.
'This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it' - Eeyore
Please remember that when they mention New Zealand they actually mean the GCSB which has these legal objectives.
Objective of Bureau
The objective of the Bureau, in performing its functions, is to contribute toâ"
(a)
the national security of New Zealand; and
(b)
the international relations and well-being of New Zealand; and
(c)
the economic well-being of New Zealand.
Our security sevices now deal in corporate welfare as well as national security. Perhaps they always did but since snowden they have highered better publisicts.
I reserve the write to mangle english.
There's no deflection here. He's merely pointing out the obvious. Your "discussion" is hinged on the childish assumption that "US has engaged in unconscionable business dealings" is somehow relevant to the discussion, as if there are other partners who don't.
When factor exists to same or greater level for everyone else involved, it becomes largely irrelevant.
When you basically export your company's entire business overseas.
Especially to a hostile nation...
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Switches stopped working in Iraq because they drop "bombs" on electrical substations that have, instead of explosives, a giant spool of conductive filament that they spew out, which blows all the fuses and fries equipment that is easy to replace in times of peace, but difficult to replace during a war. This allows the widespread incapacitation of electric grids, and shuts down most land-based communication, with minimal loss of civilian life.
Even if an urban area quickly reroutes their power distribution, it is still going to be local generation. Land communications will still be down, your repeaters on long stretches won't have power.
Border clashes in India are not the same sort of war. Such reports are consistent with what you'd want your intelligence agency to say about the enemy, though, so it can't be believed at all. But if you saw it happen for yourself, it would be more clear what happened than if you're in Iraq and the war starts and your packets stop getting through.
As for your question; Americans have a high degree of Freedom. The government isn't allowed to tell people what phones to buy. And in fact, our laws prevent the government from passing laws that discriminate based on nationality. That's why all they can do control what the government buys, and make recommendations to the people. There are various things they can do on a temporary basis, like block imports from a specific country, but those types of decisions can be reviewed by the Courts; they have to have a real reason, not just a fear. Keeping the people safe is not really a legit government interest here, the way it is in most places. It has to already be harming people before the government is allowed to do much.
To stop regular people from using them, they'd have to instead force the corporations to stop allowing such phones on their networks, via the license needed for access to the public airwaves. That type of license, because it manages a limited shared resource, can give more consideration to general concerns about national security. But in all cases, it will still be allowed to have one of those phones, even if it doesn't work as a phone here.
Banning things is very difficult for the US Government to achieve, and requires cooperation from all three branches of government. Regulating things at the government's point of involvement is much easier.
By definition, vassals send tribute and provide military assets.
The US accepts no tribute, and receives none. And even pays for most of the NATO military defense.
Find a book, learn you some history. "Vassal" doesn't mean, "has an ally that is larger."
That only describes the non-European allies. Sure, allies like Egypt and Pakistan receive aid payments to keep them on our "side."
But our European allies are true friends, with a bond forged in blood and fortified with blood numerous times.
I know that really torques the Anti-Americans in Europe, and the Anti-Europeans in America, but it is still true, it is still the prevailing consensus on both sides.
The hilarious part is that the US doesn't go off invading anybody without having our European allies at our side.
France opposed the Iraq War because they didn't think that the US was sending enough troops to occupy and maintain order; they didn't want to help unless it was done right! Can't blame them, a lot of Americans felt the same way about it.
Then all these French leftists get online and are all like, "schna, schna, schna" with their noses at the clouds gargling wine while feeling self-important, with no clue at all what their country's foreign policies are.
It isn't hard to find a German who is willing to say something bad about the US, but if we threaten to reduce the number troops we station there, they line the streets in protest! It is hilarious.
But the good news, the US isn't trying to sell this equipment, the goal is to get Americans and Allies to use equipment made by any of our European allies. If Europeans are selling it to the US and then buying it back, that sounds silly, and easy for them to solve. We're not asking the Allies to trust us, we're asking the Allies to trust themselves.
You raving lunatics who say this are the same types who supported the Nazis and Hitler's Third Reich!!!! Forced organ harvesing of political prisoners and religious prisoners, disappeared human rights attorneys and pro-democracy activists, etc., etc., ad nauseum. "China isn't perfect . . ." Are you completely insane???
http://www.filmsforfreedom.com...
In exchange we formed the EU and are killing ourselves.
Speaking as someone from western Europe, the problem with Huawei is that in geopolitical terms China is not an ally by any stretch of the imagination. The USA are. If there's any serious trouble
Was it China or that "ally" who was tapping the German Chancellor's phone calls?
Define freedom of speech. If you're going to go with the US constitutional version then pretty much no other country does does that.
Don't talk to me about "Freedom of speech" while you have people like Assange bullied and prosecuted for what they said.
Again, no sense of proportions. You have Assange, I raise you one million Chinese Uyghurs being incarcerated in "re-education camps" in China for their religious beliefs.
More to the point, China tries, and in large parts succeeds better that the West, to not leave people behind to poverty, distress, hunger, cold.
Except for the Uyghurs, who live in a "fully-fledged police state" and are detained in mass detention camps.
Its the new made in China network the phone/computer/cell phone is connected to at a national level.
China sets the costs and the design. The support for any nations police force.
Thats the part the NSA and GCHQ enjoyed supporting all other nations with for decades.
Low cost from China. That was once EU and US brands product to sell internationally at any price.
China gives hardware and software that nations police/mil like at a new low price.
No questions, no need for US and UK experts later.
No more US and UK oversight on what a nation police and mil want to do on their own networks in their own nation.
China gives them all the full network control at a low price. Telcos and security services are happy to have the keys to their own nations infrastructure.
No more having to ask the NSA/GCHQ/MI6/CIA for expert advice to track any groups in your own nation.
To get US and UK technical and political approval for each police mission. China is more understanding of any internal police matter.
Thats a lack of meetings with staff from the USA/UK with another nations telco and security forces over decades.
What was once a lot of meetings and contact with the CIA/NSA/GCHQ is now just an export deal with China.
Hardware from China is ready for all markets and all governments with none of the past UK/US police/mil support problems.
The US and UK become just another nation entering a nations telco network rather than the direct owners of every nations telco networks.
Trusted 5 eyes brands have lost their telco spy code monopoly.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
That's what I've been saying for a few years. My last 3 phones were Huawei. Never had an issue, phones were great, good value, great battery life, but, living in the USA, they getting kicked out, getting one that works in the USA might be an issue going forward, and, getting updates (Huawei isn't known for pushing out updates quickly LOL), I had to give up and get something else. "But Huawei spies for the Chinese government". Yeah, and Google, Apple, Samsung, LG, HTC and others don't spy? The golden egg right now is DATA. You'd have to be an idiot not to think the U.S. government doesn't spy. FBI, NSA, CIA and other alphabet agencies. When they started blocking Huawei, my FIRST thought was the Apple/Samsung bunch paid a TON of money to keep them out. Think about it. For better/worse, most consumers in the USA STILL BUY their phones from "carriers" or retail carrier sites. People in the USA, since the explosion of mobile phones are "use" to paying cheap for phones, over time. With phones in the 600-1200 dollar range, people opt to get a carrier phone, no interest, spread out over time. Carrier branding makes it much easier for Apple & Samsung (and a couple smaller players) to maintain a very high retail price, spread it out over time, plus a win for the carriers to keep people "locked in". You think they wouldn't pay a little money under the table to keep things the way they are? They probably got scared when at&t and then Best Buy said they were going to carry the Huawei brand, given how popular it is elsewhere in the world.
Oh yes, the chancellor who was probably totally ok with the total surveillance her constituents were already subject to, perhaps a little jealous of the capability of various other nations on that score, but who got rather pissy when she herself was spied upon. Ms. Merkel can seriously go suck an egg, and have a bite of the same shit sandwich we’re having.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Yes, wars tend to antagonize the governments that fight them. News at 11.
There is no "obvious" here. The talking point that Europe is "overly dependent" on Russian gas is just that - a talking point. The fact is that Russia is at least as much dependent on European money and tech that it gets in exchange for its gas, and that the gas trade has done much more for improving the strategic safety of Europe than, for example, the US military presence.
Chinese firms will ship tech to countries in defiance of a US trade embargo.
It's almost as if they are from a country that isn't the United States! How dare a company in another country not follow an American law. It's unfathomable!
That canard again. Soviet pipelines used analog control systems, not some fancy software.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Bullshit. Every country had at least one bank. Kim dotcom was not forced to commit bank fraud. The Chinese princess was not forced to commit bank fraud. The both choose to use American banks.
When was that different before Trump? At which point in its history has the United States been altruistic? Can we see some examples, please?
What "Europe" are you referring to? The German interests? Spanish? Polish? Estonian? Ukrainian? Russian?
If you want to complain about specifics, then be specific. Interests in Europe are widely divergent, and your statement about "Europe" is patently false on the face of it, as much of Europe has a grand total of zero dependency on Russian gas, while some has a lot.
ugh wat there are non-american banks, I live in the eu and I know this for sure. kim dotcom was conducting business in the usa, hence the extradition request.
I'm talking about the same "Europe" that the GP is talking about. Strangely, you aren't complaining to him for the usage, but instead come bitching at me.
The problem with your thinking is that you are caught in a "with us or against us" mindset.
They both have their own agendas and are friends or enemies of Europe as it fits them. That includes the famous "american friendship" that was cultivated as a tool against communism and is now being kept for economic reasons.
Don't for a moment think that the USA is a friend or ally. They've done their share to prevent Europe from rising to a global power, they've started countless wars and left Europe to pay the bills or the rebuilding of what they destroyed, they're not unhappy about the refugee crisis and they even managed to shift most of the burden of the financial crisis to us.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
OP is spreading fake news.
Except that, of course, his story was "European governments backing Nord Stream pipeline". Which is a very select few of European countries who stand to benefit from removal of middle men in Eastern Europe both in terms of supply security and costs.
Whereas you chose to talk about "money flows from Europe to Russia" which is a completely different set of countries. Essentially, you're talking about a completely different "Europe".
Why do you have to lie? The real quote is, of course:
To sell more liquified natural gas of course. The same reason they are trying to convince European governments to block the Nord Stream pipeline.
There is no reference to the governments backing the Nord stream whatsoever.
Canada could ship to them... if it weren't for the Quebec government.
https://globalnews.ca/news/474...
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Because it's new years, and early morning, so I typed it in instead of just copying it, and typed the wrong word in. Thanks for the correction.
The point I made stands on the same merits as before, as your correction changed nothing of relevance to it.
Either the Nord Stream 2 pipeline is built or the German economy will tumble. As will the economy of the Netherlands. Even the UK will be impacted. You know why? Because the natural gas wells in the Netherlands are drying up. As is North Sea gas. There will be a capacity deficit in the near future, like the next 5 years unless Nord Stream 2 is built. The alternative for the Germans, I guess, is burning coal. Since Germany has been closing all their nuclear reactors.
If you think the Germans will take the hit and lose economic competitiveness to satisfy some nebulous USA natural gas interests they have another thing coming. Fact is the USA does not even have the capacity to supply that demand over the next 5 years. To build those facilities, even if they were financed, would take at least a decade and it would still be more expensive than Russian gas.
Oh yes, the chancellor who was probably totally ok with the total surveillance her constituents were already subject to
We call that a strawman, something completely irrelevant to the discussion. Ms Merkel can go suck eggs for a lot of reasons, but what has any of that got to do with the USA being a hostile ally?
And what was your point, that the EU does not exist? Sober up, and accept the fact - the Russian gas trade does not create one-way "dependencies" and is a major contributing factor to European stability. The pathetic attempts of the US to disrupt it in the interest of people like Biden's family and Trump's friends are contributing to the opposite - to tension growth and conflict escalation.
US has Guantanamo, and a couple of similar smaller camps all around the world (Romania for example). Counting all together, how much do you think we're falling behind that million? (And what if we add the wrongfully imprisoned into private penitentiaries by a broken plea-bargain justice system, are we getting close yet?...)
No?
So, according to the sense-of-proportion argument then, we're safe. Right? It is ok to run around incarcerating people, holding them as modern-age slaves, or torturing them, executing them without judicial oversight, as long as the other guys are doing it to even more people, right?
Not to excuse China here - I dont like what they're doing. But we're not the ones to hold them moral lessons about it, we're doing the same. If the west holds itself to a higher standard, it should actually try to meet that standard, but this is not how you do it.
This was the core of my argument: that China is the same villain as the US, and numbers nitpicking can't disarm that as long as the west is willfully, systematically and knowingly making the same principle mistakes.
In Turkey, you can be in-prisoned as a citizen for speaking up against the president. Does this happen in the US? In Hungary you can loose your job or loose your small enterprise for not supporting the current government. Does that happen in the US? In Russia you can suffer an unfortunate accident if you are a journalist, and get shot on the birthday of the president if you dig too deep. Does that happen in the US? In China Winnie-the-Pooh is banned as someone started a meme representing the president as Winnie.
My point, is that there is a HUGE difference between different systems, especially in how they treat THEIR OWN citizens.
US has Guantanamo, and a couple of similar smaller camps all around the world (Romania for example). Counting all together, how much do you think we're falling behind that million? (And what if we add the wrongfully imprisoned into private penitentiaries by a broken plea-bargain justice system, are we getting close yet?...)
No, you're not getting anywhere near close. There are currently about 55 people imprisoned in Guantanamo, captured under very different circumstances. The number of wrongfully imprisoned in China is probably also higher, considering they have a 99.9% conviction rate.
Yeah... Hungary has its problems, but it also has a future as Hungary. Not so sure about some of its neighbors. The border controls were minimal when I crossed from Austria - wife and I were required to stop, but as we were in a German-registered car and visibly of European descent, they didn’t even ask us to roll the windows down. If that’s the new face of totalitarianism, I can live with it. Let’s not forget that Hungary was strident in opposition to the USSR and was the first state east of the Iron Curtain to open borders to the West.
The US intelligence community is not elected but they ARE under the control of the democratically elected government. It's just that many US citizens have been neglect in their duties to vote. If the people wanted to they could completely change who was running the US intelligence community, besides many other tools like cut off funding for operations that aren't supported or have laws passed to reduce the amount/types of spying allowed or have more oversight. Those things are currently not possible in Russia and China.
Can you read?
Are you sure?
Completely sure, or do you merely suspect it is true?
Maybe you were simply told "good job" by a teacher once, and believed in meant you're literate?
My understanding is that North Sea gas is fine for decades, which is about as much as anyone searches for today. Considering the need for alternative sources, Norway and Scotland will have plenty of resources for new wells even if they are uneconomical in the immediate pricing situation. EU grants will come very quickly should they be needed.
Nord Stream 2 isn't needed in any meaningful way right now on merits of "today", as Nord Stream 1 is underutilized. There's still plenty of capacity there. It's about future proofing and slowly and surely bypassing the middle men in Eastern Europe, some of whom are extremely opposed to Russia because of their geopolitical interests. In this regard, both Russia and Germany are very interested in Nord Stream 2, as it ensures that when Ukrainian cronies decide to grab the German money for gas and keep it on 3 month accounts in Swiss banks to accrue interest to steal, Russia won't have to cut gas due to lack of payment for months on end. Not to even mention the lesser problem of gas stealing, that is completely normal and accepted in those parts.
As for US supplying gas, most of the shale producers have wells for "30 years of production". Why not more? Because they would have to disclose this if it was so, which automatically makes them target for hostile takeover. Natgas is the by-product of shale, that is getting increasingly captured instead of flared. So US has supplies for at least 30 years, and realistically for far longer period of time. The problem here is costs, because energy expenditures to compress the gas into liquid and transport it are just too high compared to piped gas. You're looking at about 50% price increase for someone like Germany.
I'm sorry, I thought I was talking to a rational individual and not just a Russian troll.
My understanding is that North Sea gas is fine for decades, which is about as much as anyone searches for today. Considering the need for alternative sources, Norway and Scotland will have plenty of resources for new wells even if they are uneconomical in the immediate pricing situation. EU grants will come very quickly should they be needed.
Norway is not in the EU and Scotland will soon not be in the EU either. The UK currently is dismantling most of its oil rigs. Also, one reason why Russia has been pulling ahead in the segment is because they have been willing to fund most of their projects on their own dime.
Also, with regards to the Netherlands.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog...
Natural gas production from the Groningen field has now roughly halved over the last three years, and will not return to previous levels. This latest decision, therefore, truly marks the end of an era for the Dutch and for Europe more broadly. (2016)
Netherlands natural gas production in Bcm.
https://ycharts.com/indicators...
Finally.
https://www.reuters.com/articl...
Production is set for 21.6 billion cubic meters (bcm) this year, already down from a peak of 53.8 bcm in 2013, following a series of cuts as decades of extraction have led to dozens of earthquakes each year, damaging thousands of homes and buildings.
“Our intention is (to cut production) to get towards 12 bcm in the coming four or five years, and to zero at the end of the coming decade,” Prime Minister Mark Rutte told a press conference. (2018)
Nord Stream 2 isn't needed in any meaningful way right now on merits of "today", as Nord Stream 1 is underutilized.
https://www.nord-stream.com/pr...
"In 2017, the Nord Stream Pipeline delivered 51 billion cubic metres (bcm) of natural gas to consumers in the European Union. This means the pipeline system operated at 93 per cent of its annual design capacity of 55 bcm."
That's 93 per cent capacity last year. Plus given the ramp up trends it should have reached full capacity this year.
As for US supplying gas, most of the shale producers have wells for "30 years of production". Why not more? Because they would have to disclose this if it was so, which automatically makes them target for hostile takeover. Natgas is the by-product of shale, that is getting increasingly captured instead of flared. So US has supplies for at least 30 years, and realistically for far longer period of time. The problem here is costs, because energy expenditures to compress the gas into liquid and transport it are just too high compared to piped gas. You're looking at about 50% price increase for someone like Germany.
Exactly. It would be a lot more expensive. It would also require large liquefaction and regasification facilities to be build. There are plenty of port facilities in Europe but there is a severe shortage of liquefaction facilities in the USA and regasification facilities in Europe. In fact Europe has been investing in ports, storage, and regasification facilities for natural gas over the past decade. However the USA can neither supply that demand nor do it cheaply. In fact the USA has been bickering already that Russia is starting to carve a chunk of the LNG sector themselves via their Yamal LNG liquefaction facilities.
https://www.reuters.com/articl...
Somehow I got the last link wrong. This should be the correct one.
https://www.reuters.com/articl...
First point is superbly irrelevant, as Norway and Scotland are tightly integrated into the common market for cabrohydrates and have been before EU because what it is today. Netherlands is irrelevant, as most of their gas was for domestic production for a tiny nation for quite a while. Even if they were to fully switch to Russia supplies, additional consumption would be tiny.
On Nord Stream 1, note that not only is there still available capacity even in the numbers you quote, just as I noted, but Gazprom has already conceded that it will provide guarantees to current transit partners in exchange for required permits that gas transit over middle men like Poland will not suffer a massive reduction from Nord Stream 2. Ramp up of capacity you're talking about has been driven mostly by shift of transit from onshore transit routes, and utilized as a pressure tool on Eastern Europe.
That's where the political opposition to Nord Stream 2 came from. Should Nord Stream 2 be actually operated at any significant capacity, there may be severe political upheaval on EU level as middle men would lose their ability to extract significant monetary compensations from Germany for their economies. Considering the way Germany has hollowed out much of infrastructure across Eastern Europe as EU economic integration proceeded, we're looking at significant risks from it being fully operational.
As for LNG, I have some serious misgivings of suggesting that Russia has the capacity or ability to just suddenly leapfrog a supplier like US, for whom gas is effectively free by-product of shale, and who has the best maritime supply system and best ocean access of any country on the planet due to its geography. It frankly has all the same "big promise, little delivery" that anyone who has worked on Russian market knowns to be the core principle of its functionality.
I would argue that if you want to make a point of "Russia as the future of natgas on EU territory", a far more important factor would be the current trend in Syria effectively blocking Qatar from being able to pipe its gas to European continent entirely, and making it very hard for Israel to do so with its own offshore gas.
Ah, yes, the universal talking point when lacking arguments, "Russian troll". Please check under your bed, maybe Putin is there.
After you ran out of arguments, you first attempted deflection towards an irrelevant detail, then you tried to pretend that point that was already debunked wasn't. And now that you got called on your trolling, you're desperately trying to proclaim victimhood.
Here's an advice for you. You're awful at trolling beyond the "no u" arguments. I saw through you in two posts. A half a decent troll would at least be able to string together five-seven deflectionary posts to keep me interested in the narratives. Trolling at higher level just isn't for you. Stick to "no u".
Irrelevant? The Netherlands produced over 73 bcm (that's billion cubic meter) of natural gas in the year of 2010. In 2017 their production was around 36 bcm. Their supply is going to zero in a decade. They used to export a lot of their output to Germany and the UK. They even have a pipeline to the UK to do this. Nord Stream 2 can supply 55 bcm in a year once it becomes operational at the end of next year. Nord Stream 1 is already being used at full capacity this year according to several reports.
The Eastern European countries already get a lot of EU funds to increase their economic convergence to the EU mean.
https://assets.kpmg/content/da...
Even if Nord Stream 2 would not be built what will happen is the Russians will export more LNG from Yamal. They already have plans to double their production capacity. Another thing they might do is shift exports to China if Europe stops buying their gas. Then what would happen is Germany and most central europe would get more expensive natural gas only decreasing their own competitive advantage versus the Asian markets.
US gas would be competitive in places like Western Europe. In there it competes with both Nigerian and Algerian natural gas. But what has happened in practice is the US has sold most of its gas in Asian markets, namely China, which can pay more. Their LNG gasification capabilities are about the same as Russia. They might have a lot of gas but they neither have the gasification facilities nor the tankers to move the gas. Those would take a decade to build.
There were many things that were done decade past that aren't relevant any more. Shocking, I know.
As for the rest, you appear to be missing the entire current trend, where "economic convergence" resulted in economic divergence of massive proportions. Infrastructure is being relocated from surrounding states to Germany at breakneck pace by standards of such movement. Movement of young people of these nations is following suit.
Anyway, I think we're done here. You're clearly here to sell me an idea assuming my ignorance on the topic. My inside knowledge on the topic largely inoculates me against such grand salesman proclamations. The whole "but we're going to sell to Asia" narrative has been the favourite Gazprom idea since it's predecessors, for at least half a century if not more. It has never materialized, and is unlikely to ever materialize. Not only are Russian elites simply too burned on the whole Asian connection over decades and culturally highly inclined toward European direction instead, but Asian states are far poorer and as a result drive a far harder bargain on pricing. Not to even mention the geopolitical instability of the region.
Which is why all those best laid plans, major promises, and grand proclamations, which were far greater than your proclamations and came from much more authoritative sources never materialized into any kind of meaningful results.
No, after I made a valid, fact-supported point, you tried to strawman me with a lie, and when you got caught, called me a "Russian troll" just because you have nothing to argue against my position.
A bit of advice for you - you're stupid, uninformed and lacking the capacity to argue a point, but very, very loud - so just like your president.
Go back under your bridge and say hi to your mother.
It has never materialized huh? I guess you never heard of these.
http://www.gazprom.com/project...
http://www.gazprom.com/project...
Or more even more relevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Also the natural gas prices are higher in the Asian than European markets. Why do you think the US is mostly selling its LNG to China when the liquefaction facilities are in the Gulf of Mexico?
Cool, now how many do we still need before Right becomes Wrong? Do we need to match the full million? Or maybe just about 150k, given that there are only 1/4 bn people in the US, give or take? (Maybe we could throw in a few targeted killings in the middle east, just for good measure? And a few more collateral killings, caused by the non-UN-sanctioned invasion of foreign states, like Iraq?)
How about we keep it at 1?
I'm not talking about 1 accidentally incarcerated person in a random prison, I'm talking about 1 willfully locked up person by a government that knows it shouldn't, because it's wrong by its own standards to do so. Otherwise our western "civilsation" isn't worth much more than the fancy toilet paper we use instead of leaves and sand.
Concerning the wrongfully imprisoned: USA has the highest rate in the world of people in jail, period. Now either China has more *wrongfully* imprisoned people, meaning most people in US prisons deserve to be locked up. This would mean USA produces the highest rate of crooks in the world. Or China and USA have just about the same rate of crooks as everywhere else, in which case USA has more wrongfully imprisoned people.
Not sure which interpretation you'd prefer.
you can't expect backdoors to be secret (forever).
the backdoors will be found by grey/blackhats or stolen by spies.
than basically everybody has access, and at that point, all bets are off.
backdoors, no matter who put them in, or for whatever reason, are never a good idea.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
I find it very interesting the increased number of ACs that show up whenever there's anything controversial about China. Not to mention that many of them are clearly not native English speaking posts.
For this reason, I don't respond to or mod up any AC posts.
Just another day in Paradise
I've heard of all of them. None of them materialized as meaningful so far, and where they have materialized, economic realities suggest that lines will fall far behind what was being promised, both in terms of volume and profitability.
You can keep skirting around this particular issue as much as you want, but anyone who worked on Russian market knows that big promises and little deliveries on major projects are a norm. Gasprom isn't different here. Which is why so many companies get burned badly on that market, as they assume that big promises and great looking brochures will be actually followed on in full, as if they're operating in Western Europe or US.
I'd ask you how weather is in St. Petersburg, but I can just look it up. It's awful, just like you are at trolling.
Your talking points are so 2015 that you must be 30 years retarded in real life.