Nest Secure Has an Unlisted, Disabled Microphone (androidauthority.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Android Authority: Owners of the Nest Secure alarm system have been able to use voice commands to control their home security through Google Assistant for a while now. However, to issue those commands, they needed a separate Google Assistant-powered device, like a smartphone or a Google Home smart speaker. The reason for this limitation has always seemed straightforward: according to the official tech specs, there's no onboard microphone in the Nest Secure system. However, Google just informed us that it is right now rolling out Assistant functionality to all Nest Secure devices via a software update. That's right: if you currently own a Nest Secure, you will be able to use it as a Google Home very soon. That means somewhere in the Nest Guard -- the keypad base station of the Nest Secure -- there might be a microphone we didn't know existed. Either that or your voice commands are going to be heard by another product (like your phone, maybe) but Assistant's output will now come from the Nest Guard, if you happen to be in the range of that device. UPDATE: Google has issued a statement to Android Authority confirming the built-in microphone in the Nest Guard base system that's not listed on the official spec sheet at Nest's site. The microphone has been in an inactive state since the release of the Nest Secure, Google says. This unlisted mic is how the Nest Guard will be able to operate as a pseudo-Google Home with just a software update.

Comments

unlisted microphone?

[Anonymous Coward]

look, i just want a warm living room when i come home from work

can we fuck off with this creeping and creepy featuritis?

Re:unlisted microphone?

[Anonymous Coward]

a 'smart' thermostat needs no camera, needs no microphone. needs no 'cloud' backing it up.. just a little locally run code, a source for local weather conditions, forecasts and date/time.. the national weather service and nist (and other countries' equivalents) provide those. for free.. with no creepy factor.

anything that CAN run locally.. SHOULD be run locally. this cloud dependency simply for the sake of 'the cloud' (and data gathering) is total bullshit.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would it even need weather? It controls the temperature inside the home. All it needs is a schedule and an easy way to override for when you're not going to be there.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would it even need weather? It controls the temperature inside the home. All it needs is a schedule and an easy way to override for when you're not going to be there.

To anticipate load and/or pricing spikes. For example, Nest will overshoot (undershoot?) cooling if it sees that the temperature will increase in the next few hours, because overall it's cheaper and more energy efficient to cool in advance and let the temperature gradually rise, rather than play catch up all day.

Re: unlisted microphone?

[Anonymous Coward]

And a smart microphone needs no internet connection. In terms of how cheap storage is, it could just store keywords/phrases/signatures and when a second device was in proximity it could establish a proprietary connection and upload. Unlikely to be useful to most folks except maybe those with a bone to pick.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[Lab Rat Jason]

What are the odds that a government, or other state sponsored entity already knew about this... and already updated your software?

Asking for a friend...

Re:unlisted microphone?

[ljw1004]

a 'smart' thermostat needs no camera, needs no microphone. needs no 'cloud' backing it up..

I've frequently controlled my Nest via smartphone from under the warmth+safety of my own duvet covers when it was too cold to get out.

I'm not sure how this would best be done. It can't be via bluetooth (out of range). Doing it via cloud, as Nest does, seemed to work fine. Another option would be if the nest app on my phone is able to seek out local devices on the local area network, I guess like AirPlay and other streaming protocols.

Also, on most vacations, I've realized I forgot to turn down the heating and I've done it remotely from the airport. I think "cloud" is the only viable option here. (I used to have a home server running OpenSuse, and could have figured out something there, but stopped it once I realized that (1) I'm don't have the admin skills+knowledge to keep it secure, and (2) with three toddlers I don't have the time to acquire those skills nor the time to keep it secure.)

Re:unlisted microphone?

[SuseLover]

Yes, and the masses will still purchase and gobble this stuff up so it will become even more pervasive. They just don't care or see the problem with it.

I'm having a hell of a time finding IP cameras that do NOT use the cloud. You can't even tell if you read the specs sometimes.

If I were smart I'd startup a similar company that "features" no cloud connections for the informed market.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[arglebargle_xiv]

Honeywell doesn't think so.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[toddestan]

You don't need the internet for that either, a temperature sensor outside will do. Or for that matter, a humidity sensor indoors.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[Khyber]

" Fourth, pre-cooling or pre-heating beyond 1 hour does nothing at all in most homes."

Guess you've never lived in a nearly non-insulated California home.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[KingMotley]

Because a lot of furnaces and almost all air conditioners and heat pump's efficiency changes based on the outside temperature. Because your home isn't 100% insulated, it also affects how much extra heating/cooling is going to be required to raise/drop the house temperature. Not rocket science.

If you wanted a stupid scheduling thermostat, then I suggest buying one of those. I didn't buy a nest thermostat so it could be just a stupid scheduling thermostat.

BTW, this article is on the Nest Secure, not the Nest Thermostat, so... Not sure why this was even brought up.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[havana9]

If you need a smart thermostat or whatewer there are a lot of smart solutions without microphone or cloud systems. Like BTicino MyHome or Vimar or CSISPA they can work disconnected and without using TCP/IP. These cloud systems look easier to setup of course and you have to buy them in a professional warehouse and follow the elecrical code guidelines to install them. It's the laziness factor that wins.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[Carewolf]

Why would it even need weather? It controls the temperature inside the home. All it needs is a schedule and an easy way to override for when you're not going to be there.

To anticipate load and/or pricing spikes. For example, Nest will overshoot (undershoot?) cooling if it sees that the temperature will increase in the next few hours, because overall it's cheaper and more energy efficient to cool in advance and let the temperature gradually rise, rather than play catch up all day.

No, it is not cheaper. It is more expensive. The bigger the temperature difference the bigger the energy leak, so preemptively lowering temperatures will only cause more cold to be leaked, and thus cause a higher energy usage.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[ceoyoyo]

Wifi works fine. There are smart thermostats that use it, just not ad supported ones.

For outside access the company could offer a dynamic DNS service instead of a bunch of cloud stuff.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[thegarbz]

Then just buy a Nest and be done with it. I don't know why you are complaining about something as irrelevant as a thermostat while we're talking about a completely different product.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[thegarbz]

a 'smart' thermostat needs no camera

Depends on how "smart" you expect the "smart" thermostat to be. You use the word "smart" and then describe something incredibly dumb that has existed for years.

Conversely with a camera you can apply image detection to determine if someone is home / away while ignoring disturbances like pets, you know, like someone "smart" would.

Re: unlisted microphone?

[guruevi]

Plenty companies do use the DDNS feature but thatâ(TM)s LESS secure than a device dialing into a cloud app. At least you can make efforts to keep a central app secure and updated and there is nothing dangling (directly) on the Internet. With DDNS, your device gets anyone direct port/IP access.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[TheCastro1689]

"The bigger the temperature difference the bigger the energy leak" so the preemptive part means the temps are more in line and are closer together. Instead of trying to maintain 73 in a 80 world, while the temp is 76 the house would lower it to 70. Only a 6 degree difference vs the 7 later. So the house could work less to keep the house temp slowly creeping to 73, especially in anticipation of your home arrival.

Re:unlisted microphone?

[TheCastro1689]

It would be nice if it knew how much oil you had/used, the cost vs electricity and could use whichever system cost less, including overheating the house in anticipation of a cold snap at night, or high freezing winds, etc.

Re: unlisted microphone?

[ceoyoyo]

The cloud solution is more secure when you trust the provider. When their business model is spying on you, not so much.

You could use a third party access server too. Emphasis on third party. Someone who gets audited regularly, and whose job is purely to create a secure connection between you and your home, over the internet.

Good thing we can trust them with our data

[Anonymous Coward]

id hate to think some company would install a secret microphone in peoples home and then also secretly work with the chinese government or something like that

Re: Good thing we can trust them with our data

[Anonymous Coward]

You donâ(TM)t seem to have an understanding of the value of large data sets.

Re: Good thing we can trust them with our data

[Anonymous Coward]

There's always some idiot who thinks "B...b...b...but I don't have anything to hide!"

Re: Good thing we can trust them with our data

[JaredOfEuropa]

As they say: data is the new oil. I prefer to think of data as the new ivory: you can do a lot of nice thinks with it, but obtaining it causes serious harm, and perhaps trafficking in it ought to be outlawed. Some entities will stop at nothing to obtain it.

Re: Good thing we can trust them with our data

[HiThere]

I'm not arguing with the rest of your post, but I wouldn't be certain about them not taking over the world. Considering it likely is probably wrong, but it's not implausible.

LOL

[strikethree]

Permit me to say: LOL

I am shocked, shocked I say. ;)

Re:LOL

[gweihir]

I find this exceptionally funny. People are _dumb_ to trust these companies.

Re:LOL

[AmiMoJo]

What choice do you have though? Unless you want to drive a pretty old car you will find that all modern ones have a microphone for Bluetooth support. And in this case the buyers would have had to disassemble the device to even find out that it had a mic.

It's like how it's hard to buy a dumb TV these days. If you want something with a tuner you either buy a used one or it's going to have smart features and quite possible a microphone.

Re:LOL

[AmiMoJo]

Could they at least return the Nest thermostat now? In the UK you could return it under consumer laws for being "not as described" and "not fit for purpose", get a refund and probably ask the retailer to cover some reasonable costs if you felt like pushing it.

Re:LOL

[apoc.famine]

What choice do you have though?

Dozens of brands of $10-$50 programmable thermostats in this case.

I am baffled at people's apparent need for something more than that. Every use-case I hear is either someone too lazy or too stupid to maintain a useful temperature in their house, or who is unable tolerate anything other than getting the exact temperature exactly when they want it.

Seal your gaps, make sure your insulation is up to code, program a reasonable daily temperature profile, and then you're done. If you've bought a house built in the last 20-30 years, the first half of that work is already done.

I really do not know how you can justify needing to yell at the thermostat from under your covers that you're too cold. Are you fucking 4?

Re:LOL

[AmiMoJo]

I meant in general you can't avoid these technologies completely. Sure you don't have to have a smart thermostat... Yet. Eventually they may end up like TVs and cars, you can't buy one without a microphone in it. Okay, less likely for a thermostat, but you see my point.

I don't know what the solution is. Laws harshly punishing misuse are a good idea. I remember reading a sci-fi book where it was possible to spy on anyone at any time (using micro wormholes) so some people started living in complete darkness and communicating by silently tapping their fingers on each other's hands. Simpler times I guess, these days we know that tapping your fingers is detectable with microphones and can be decoded at a distance.

Re:LOL

[terrycarlino]

They are not talking about the Nest thermostat. They are talking about the Nest Security system. Two different items made by the same company.

So return your Nest thermostat if you want, but you won't be able to do it because it has a microphone, because, as far as is known, it doesn't.

1984

[Anonymous Coward]

“It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.”

Some people buy hardware for what is not contained

[bugnuts]

I will not buy a TV with a video camera.

I'd be furious if I found out my TV had one, that only needed a software update to activate.

That does it!

[PPH]

I'm putting my old mercury bulb thermostat back in.

Re:That does it!

[HiThere]

The mercury threat of home thermostats was not to the user, or not significantly. It was when you disposed of it.

The real question

[Anonymous Coward]

Is how many other devices have clandestine microphones unbeknownst to the owners?

How can you trust anything from any of these tech companies. They all spy on you.

Re:The real question

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Is how many other devices have clandestine microphones unbeknownst to the owners?

FTFS:

That's right: if you currently own a Nest Secure, you will be able to use it as a Google Home very soon.

No, it uses you!

Now, already.

Re:The real question

[Ol Olsoc]

Is how many other devices have clandestine microphones unbeknownst to the owners?

Yes

How can you trust anything from any of these tech companies. They all spy on you.

No and yes.

Unless you disassemble and inspect an IoT personal spying device, You must assume it has both a microphone and camera. Because it probably does. This Nest example pretty must rests my case. If it is possible to listen, they will listen

Re:The real question

[Anonymous Coward]

And can we assume that the Google Nest's microphone has the same magic hardware which prevents it from turning on and listening to everything unless it hears a wake-word, just like the Amazon Alexa? You know, one that totally absolutely definitely won't be recording everything in earshot for marketing, research, and creep purposes?

Re:The real question

[Anonymous Coward]

Dark Helmet: Google! Speak next time speak! ... Did you hear anything?
Google: No sir, we didn't hear you playing with your dolls again.
Dark Helmet: Good!

Re:The real question

[argStyopa]

Genuine question: anyone have any idea how "average consumer" or even "moderately tech-able /. poster" could identify this shit?

Or, failing that, does anyone know if there's a way to, I dunno, strip out UPSTREAM data from a specific device in your router settings? I assume that would make most devices that use ethernet connections non-functional because they wouldn't be able to ack anything legitimate.

Re:The real question

[danomac]

Or, failing that, does anyone know if there's a way to, I dunno, strip out UPSTREAM data from a specific device in your router settings?

I don't know if all routers can do this. Ubiquiti routers can for sure, assign a static IP to that device and block all traffic from that IP from going to the internet.

However, that will probably make it mostly useless as almost all of the "smart" things require internet to work.

Re:The real question

[Chelloveck]

Without disassembling the device there's really no way to tell. The best you can do is check if the case has a hole that looks suspiciously like a microphone hole, but that's going to be pretty error prone. It's still easy to put a mic somewhere that doesn't have an obvious hole, or have what looks like a mic hole that doesn't actually have a mic mounted.

It's trivial to configure a router to not pass upstream traffic from a particular device, but that's pretty much the same as not having it on the network at all. That's really pointless for a Google Home type of device. It has almost no local capability other than to listen for its keyword. Everything else it does is cloud-based. I don't know if Nest Secure can function disconnected from the net or not, but even if it can it's going to be well and truly hobbled.

Re:The real question

[Ol Olsoc]

Without disassembling the device there's really no way to tell. The best you can do is check if the case has a hole that looks suspiciously like a microphone hole, but that's going to be pretty error prone. It's still easy to put a mic somewhere that doesn't have an obvious hole, or have what looks like a mic hole that doesn't actually have a mic mounted.

Ohh, ohh, ohh..... I haz idea. Once you find a microphone, simply remove it from the device, then attach some wires to when the mic was, send audio to it, and start letting them listen to say, porn movie audio, or Meg Ryan's orgasm voice from "When Harry met Sally, or maybe Doctor Strangelove soundbytes. Possibly even RickRoll them.

Or better yet, send them commercials.

Re:The real question

[MemeRot]

I'll bet that's how it operates.

Tiny program event - hey time to turn up the heat.
Nest: web request to https://www.google.com/search?...
Special hidden result which pipes web assembly back to the thermostat.
Tiny program event - heat good enough

Re:The real question

[HiThere]

No. Many speaker designs aren't reversible. Only if ambient sound modifies the power supply, like it did in the old carbon mics.

But, or course, many things that don't appear to be microphones can operate as one. I'd be suspicious of any large touch screen, e.g. That could easily activate at a very low level from ambient noises in a way that would need to be carefully filtered out for normal use (as a touch screen). But if it's very massive, it would probably only pick up loud sounds, or only some particular wave lengths. (Think of the trick using a window pane as a resonator for a laser to read.)

Much more likely is actual microphones built into standard chips. They probably wouldn't be very high quality, but if you combine several sources you could probably process it into some reasonably good quality sound. The question is what would be the ostensible purpose of the various pieces. That seems hard to predict since new effects seem to become public every few months.

Then there's the question of "how difficult would it be to collect and process the data". Most sneaky approaches seem as if they would only work for selected targets. Mics built into consumer devices that just don't advertise themselves is a different category. Those, however, someone is likely to need to take the device apart to discover.

Re:The real question

[Ol Olsoc]

> Unless you disassemble and inspect an IoT personal spying device, You must assume it has both a microphone and camera. Because it probably does. This Nest example pretty must rests my case.

The fact that they deliberately expunged this from the publicly available specs pretty much confirms it was put in with malicious intent. The fact that it could, at any time, have had a mandatory update pushed to it that overrode the older software and put the mic (that wasn't listed anywhere) into listen mode, that's shocking.

From the article:

"All devices that come with the Google Assistant built in are designed with privacy in mind. Once the Google Assistant is enabled, the mic is always on but only listening for the hotwords “Ok Google” or “Hey Google”. Google only stores voice-based queries after it recognizes those hotwords. Voice data and query contents are sent to Google servers for analysis and storage in My Activity. Through My Activity, users are in control of their information. They can view or delete voice queries in My Activity."

Translation:

Oh shit, we were caught. When we were going to enable the Google assistant, the mic will always be on, and listening. All audio is sent to Google for analysis and surveillance purposes. So it's all good citizens, Google only has Google's best interests in mind.

We really do need to face it - if it is IoT, it is a surveillance device, and will be used as exactly that.

Yeah, sure...

[HarrySquatter]

Disabled or "disabled"?

Re:Yeah, sure...

[HarrySquatter]

Cool story, edgelord.

not right

[renegade600]

so I wonder how many other google products have hidden microphones??? what about their mesh router?

Re:not right

[Ol Olsoc]

so I wonder how many other google products have hidden microphones??? what about their mesh router?

Well, their business is exactly collecting as much data on you as they can, then selling it and making money. Care to hazard a guess? They're getting surveillance data on you that would make Microsoft blush.

Re:not right

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, their business is exactly collecting as much data on you as they can

So far, so good...

then selling it and making money.

Oh, and you were doing so well.

Google doesn't "sell" their data about you. That data, that's their golden goose. If they sell it, they've got nothing. No, what they sell is you. Or rather, your eyeballs and attention.

People go to Google and say "Show my ad to enough people to earn me 100,000 additional sales". Google uses its data about you to determine whether you're likely to respond to that ad, then based on that it decides whether to show it to you. It's able to do this because of all the data it holds about you - but if it sold that data directly, then anyone else would be able to horn in on their market.

Re:not right

[terrycarlino]

I've checked their website. It appears the Nest Secure is for now only available in the United States.

Too bad. We can be sure the FTC, FCC, Justice Department, et. all will do nothing about it. If the European Union was involved I think we all know that Google would "'ave some ex'plaining to do."

Re:not right

[dwpro]

The number of layers abstracted/aggregated are relevant but not exculpatory. Telling how many many of X are in area Y with a propensity for Z can give you zero or perfect accuracy on an individual, depending on the question and prior knowledge. We should all be vigilant of _any_ use of our data, as it can be combined in nefarious ways that we cannot imagine.

Re:not right

[Ol Olsoc]

Well, their business is exactly collecting as much data on you as they can

So far, so good...

then selling it and making money.

Oh, and you were doing so well.

Google doesn't "sell" their data about you. That data, that's their golden goose. If they sell it, they've got nothing. No, what they sell is you. Or rather, your eyeballs and attention.

People go to Google and say "Show my ad to enough people to earn me 100,000 additional sales". Google uses its data about you to determine whether you're likely to respond to that ad, then based on that it decides whether to show it to you. It's able to do this because of all the data it holds about you - but if it sold that data directly, then anyone else would be able to horn in on their market.

Funny, that's what I call selling my data

My programmable thermostat

[bobstreo]

has 5 or so presets, cost nothing (thanks natural gas company) and doesn't have any microphones, or wifi.

If I had a Nest, I'd probably break out the dyke cutter and remove the microphone.

Re:My programmable thermostat

[KingMotley]

If I had a Nest, I'd probably break out the dyke cutter and remove the microphone.

And I would laugh my ass off after you thoroughly destroy your nest thermostat because you failed to read the summary which is about the nest secure, which is a completely different product.

Re: Creepy

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a girlfriend? This is slashdot

Summary is biased.

[msauve]

"according to the official tech specs, there's no onboard microphone"

The tech specs not listing a microphone is very different than the tech specs saying "there is no onboard microphone," as claimed.

Re:Summary is biased.

[gweihir]

Tech specs, by their very nature, must list every major feature present. That list _must_ be complete. Anything major not listed must be absent. And the ability to record audio (even is "disabled" in software) is obviously a major feature in a device you put in your home. Also obviously, they do not list everything that is missing as that would be infeasible. For example, this device likely does not contain an ice-cream machine or a toilet roll holder either. Would you also expect that to be listed as absent?

Do you see how wrong your statement is?

Re:Summary is biased.

[msauve]

Oh, bullshit. The microphone isn't a feature until it starts being used. It's not uncommon for devices to have components which the engineers think might be useful in the future, but never are.

For instance every (?) Broadcom based cellphone SoC supports FM radio functionality, but only those manufacturers who enable it list "FM radio" as a feature.

If they'd listed a microphone, people have started complaining that they couldn't use it.

Re:Summary is biased.

[gweihir]

The microphone is a feature as soon as it can be activated by software. How that activation happens is immaterial. It changes the status of the device to "listening device". Your SoC example is deeply flawed.

Re:Summary is biased.

[msauve]

LoL.

Re:Summary is biased.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tech specs, by their very nature, must list every major feature present. That list _must_ be complete. Anything major not listed must be absent.

Oh please. Why is that post being up voted?* Please quote the law which requires this. Please quote the legal definition of "major feature". Tech specs have no force of law behind them other than false advertising. MSDS do, but we're not talking about those.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datasheet

*I had no idea there were this many brainless people on slashdot..

Re:Summary is biased.

[MemeRot]

Me to Nest:
Ok Google, remind me when this thing can dispense toilet paper

Re:Summary is biased.

[Khyber]

"Oh, bullshit. The microphone isn't a feature until it starts being used."

So you'll have no problem with me selling you a device, not saying it has a microphone, and then listening to you at will with a surreptitious update. Thanks, you fucking corporate lapdog. You're one of the reasons we have all of this spying shit now.

Re:Summary is biased.

[Khyber]

"Please quote the law which requires this"

Truth in Advertising, FTC Regulations, fucktard. Specifically this would fall under false and misleading advertising by omitting the fact that there is a hidden microphone. Informed consumers would likely not purchase this if they knew. I certainly would not, and thus that meets one of the elements necessary for the law.

Try again when you have actual court experience.

Re:Summary is biased.

[msauve]

So, English isn't your native language, so you think that "listening to you" isn't "being used." Thanks, you fucking logic impaired idiot.

Re:Summary is biased.

[gweihir]

Well, yes. Also because people these days are often unable to realize how little they actually know and understand. Probably an effect form opening up education to everybody and then dumbing it down so much that anybody can actually get a degree at the end.

FYI they are also renaming the device

[93 Escort Wagon]

Google announced that, going forward, the thermostat will be called the:

Nest “Secure” ;-)

Re:FYI they are also renaming the device

[Hydrian]

More like Nest Secure - Securing your data for us.

Re:What is the point

[AHuxley]

Ads. Tracking ads. Voice prints of known users talking about products and services.
Got a dog? Voice prints of new people who are friends. The words and terms they use.
The smart device is sold as a new product and service ready to respond and that is always on in the background.
A computer feels like traditional product that is used when really needed.
24/7 ads vs a few hours of web browsing.

Re: Some people buy hardware for what is not cont

[Type44Q]

Quantity over quality: not a winner; not now; not ever.

that's how they got nixon!

[Joe_Dragon]

that's how they got nixon!

"disabled" = "can be turned on any time"

[gweihir]

At least unless there is a physical switch. No? Then this counts as deceptive and malicious. These evil f****** are getting more bold.

Slashdotters Need To Learn

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdotters need to learn and realize that the average consumer - read the vast vast majority of people - don't give a flying-rat-fuck about security or privacy. They care about shiny new toys and personal convenience and they do not care what the price.

These major services/vendors have figured it out. They understand that they can do whatever the fuck they want, so long as it's convenient or shiny new for the end user. The end user/consumers gleefully hand over their money, their security, and their privacy to any and all of these companies for shiny new or convenient.

You people worrying about microphones listening in, cameras recording activities, big data tracking your every fucking activity on a global scale, you're very much in the minority. The MASSIVE majority don't just fail to understand your odd and suspicious concerns, they are angered by your belligerent resistance to devices and services such as completely unnecessary $200 thermostats that track the consumer's habits, or Smart TVs that track viewership, feed targeted ads, and listen in on household conversations.

To the rest of the world, you're a nutter deserving of scorn, ridicule, and ostracization.

Re:Slashdotters Need To Learn

[WaffleMonster]

Slashdotters need to learn and realize that the average consumer - read the vast vast majority of people - don't give a flying-rat-fuck about security or privacy.

What people like you need to learn to realize is that the only difference between a slashdotter and average consumer is knowledge of how the sausage is made.

Re:Slashdotters Need To Learn

[marcle]

Oh so sad but oh so true.

Re:Slashdotters Need To Learn

[AmiMoJo]

This used to be true but people are learning to be more careful now. Facebook/Cambridge Analytica seems to have been the watershed. When Facebook started running real-world ads trying to restore trust people realized just how bad it was.

Re:Slashdotters Need To Learn

[ceoyoyo]

They care. They're just really good at ignoring potential problems and only reacting when something happens.

Re:Slashdotters Need To Learn

[ceoyoyo]

Ah, the nineties were a glorious time. Sadly this hasn't been true for at least a decade.

"Inactive" microphone...says who?

[PseudoThink]

https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/...

Re:Some people buy hardware for what is not contai

[gweihir]

Just expect that camera to be cleverly hidden in the future.

Re: Some people buy hardware for what is not conta

[gweihir]

Yes, stupid wins by the numbers. In all other regards, people like you lose.

Techies care out of self preservation

[ghoul]

The mob may be distracted by shiny toys today but at some point when the snooping gets too much the mob will get ugly and when they start the pogrom they will go after all techies not just the ones at NEST. Hence we crib about privacy and try to prevent overreach.

Re: Some people buy hardware for what is not conta

[zlives]

dubious use of "win" here.

better is no internet connection

[dltaylor]

If you buy a TV that has WiFi, block the MAC; if it has wired, just don't connect it.

I have an old WD box for Netflix, which has neither camera nor microphone.

Re:better is no internet connection

[bagofbeans]

You can't block the MAC on all your neighbours' wifi systems, and you can't stop the TV breaking the weakest password protection it finds.

I remind about the Sony CD rootkit debacle.

Re:better is no internet connection

[LostMyAccount]

I always wondered if there had been any wifi-equipped devices that also had WPA breaking automation in them to gain access to networks when they otherwise couldn't.

But at this point what you have to stop now are cheap cellular modems.

Re:better is no internet connection

[Shikaku]

All the smart tvs in the future are gonna have 5G connections that are "free" so that they can still phone home and do whatever they want unless you live in a faraday cage or far away enough from a 5G cell phone tower.

Re:better is no internet connection

[AmiMoJo]

You are going to have to open it up and unplug the wifi antenna, and attach an attenuator in its place.

Or just install tinfoil wallpaper in your living room, but I've heard that may amplify the mind control rays.

Re:better is no internet connection

[skegg]

>> unless you live in a faraday cage

Heh heh, I like that.

>> or far away enough from a 5G cell phone tower

From what I hear isn't that, like, a metre?

Re: better is no internet connection

[wolf12886]

Interesting thought. However this is one level of malicious sofistication I think we haven't reached yet. At least not for consumer devices.

Re:If you have a cell phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does it matter? Nearly everyone carries around a pocket-sized spy computer everywhere they go all day long and then leave them on the nightstand next to their bed at night.

Surprise AC peddles out tired "but UR cellphone" trope to justify mass insanity.

If your faucet started leaking would it be ok if I drilled a hole in the supply line because it's leaking anyway?

If an item turned up stolen from your home would it matter if more thieves showed up and stole everything the first thief didn't?

Re:Some people buy hardware for what is not contai

[Sir Holo]

You can't buy a good 4k display that does not have a microphone. I said I wouldn't buy a display with a mic or camera, but I did. I just never plug an ethernet cable into it, and my wifi is white-listed to omit the display.

Nest Secure is NOT Nest Thermostat

[Alascom]

There seems to be a lot of confusion by folks commenting.

Nest Secure is a home security hub.
Nest Thermostat is a thermostat.

The Nest Secure "base station" is a keypad device with various sensors that acts as both a security component as well as a security "base station". Features of the Nest Secure include the ability to listen for "breaking glass", which can be an indicator of a break-in when the alarm is set. Other Nest security components (such as door/window & motion detectors) communicate back to the Nest Secure "base station".

So anyone buying a Nest Secure already knows it listens, as well as tracking their motion, opening/closing of doors, along with whenever they leave or come home... That is the PURPOSE of the damn thing.

As far as inactivate hardware features go - this is not uncommon. The Google Hub shipped as a wifi router, but included additional hardware that could be "software activated" later allowing the Hub to communicate with other protocols such as zigbee & bluetooth (never was). My Tesla model S shipped in 2013 with "inactivate" hardware, such as an onboard wifi AP & 4G LTE that would be enabled at "some future time" (never was).
.

Re:Nest Secure is NOT Nest Thermostat

[terrycarlino]

Since the Secure uses the microphone as a breaking glass detector I'd say it was active, but didn't have the software to phone home like a Google Home puck or phone app.

So yep. It's been turned on, but the user couldn't access it for speach recognition.

Re:Nest Secure is NOT Nest Thermostat

[terrycarlino]

The best reason to believe the Thermostat doesn't have a microphone is that it was developed before Google bought Nest. So since we might assume Nest wasn't originally in the data spy business, it make sense to conclude there is no microphone.

Except didn't a new version of the Nest Thermostat come out after Google bought them? Oops!

Just one microphone?

[markjhood2003]

I was under the impression that these far-field voice assistants required an array of microphones to do things like beam forming, noise reduction, acoustic echo cancellation, etc. The Amazon Echo has 7 microphones in a ring.

So there's either more than one hidden microphone or Google is rolling out a feature that's not really going to work well for voice assistance. I have to wonder what the real purpose of this update is.

Re:Just one microphone?

[nullchar]

Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct!

1, 7, 23, who cares. Still a "microphone" for the purpose of recording, and has been recording for awhile. Google didn't use the source audio, but everyone else did.

transducers are coming and going

[JackSpratts]

just a reminder: ALL sound transducers, speakers and mics, do double duty. 50 years ago when sennheiser debuted their legendary 414s, they introduced headphone drivers to the world that were essentially microphones repurposed as tiny on-the-ear lightweight speakers and personal sound reproduction would never be the same. before long there wasn't a radio station or recording studio without the lightweight little hi fidelity wonders. and the reverse is also true. the "regular" consumer speaker products installed in your laptops, tablets, internet radios and smart tvs make dandy microphones and are often used as such by hobbyists and modifiers. if somebody is clever enough and is motivated enough, they can listen in on you through your supposedly micless gear via your speakers, with transmissibility approaching microphones, because that's what they essentially are.

- js.

Re:transducers are coming and going

[Cmdln Daco]

When I was a kid, my next door neighbor and I strung a pair of wires from my window to his. We hooked a loudspeaker to the wire pair at each end. Voila, a bi-directional communications system. Either end could listen closely at the speaker to hear what was going on at the other end.

drillhere.org

[Cmdln Daco]

This is just another instance of a situation that can be answered by an organization that puts up a website called 'drillhere.org'. This site contains detailed information about how and where to drill into your gadget to disable functionality you don't want.

It would have things like:

"To disable the microphone in a Nest Secure thermostat, drill a hole xxx deep using a #56 drill bit and angle X.X."

Usually there's a precise way to take care of 'problems' like this hidden microphone, and people have a right to know how to fix said problems.

Re:Some people buy hardware for what is not contai

[CaptQuark]

Looking over the specs of a Samsung 4K TV shows it has a microphone in the remote but not in the TV. Assuming that is true, a universal remote and removing the batteries in the Samsung remote should take care of that.

---

In older times was more difficult to spt

[havana9]

In the older time to place a microphone somewhere hou have had to be really clever, like one that invents elecronic musical instruments: Theremin's bug now ir way way easier to russians to spy, because we have tons of micophones in appliance connected to a communication network...

Re:Some people buy hardware for what is not contai

[skegg]

Same here: when I needed to buy a new TV one of my few criteria was "NOT a smart TV".

And I predict this rule will stand when I need to buy another one.

My choices were constrained, but so be it.

Re:Some people buy hardware for what is not contai

[skegg]

>> Looking over the specs

Re-read the summary !

Re:There might be a microphone?

[ledow]

Really?

Smartphone microphones are deceptively tiny nowadays. Sometimes the only reason you know they are there is because of a small hole.

They can be surface mount, literally a mm or so, and not at all obvious as being a microphone (but if they aren't being deliberately hidden, they likely have acoustic-friendly surroundings, like plastics funnels and shields around them).

That was the mic on an iPhone 4, for instance:

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardow...

You have now reached the point (actually a while ago) where technology is so tiny, pervasive and cheap that you don't actually have a clue what is in anything any more. You can get spy cams that you can barely tell are cameras - so tiny they rival anything that Hollywood ever featured in a tie-pin. And you can buy them for next-to-nothing from a thousand Chinese sites.

Nobody knew this thing was there because either a) nobody looked or b) nobody who looked ever saw it.

Now consider that almost everything gets teardowns, repairability ratings, reverse-engineered, etc. nowadays... it's unlikely that nobody ever looked.

From now on all devices will have a Microphone

[mysidia]

Microphones and the respective chips are so inexpensive, small, and low power now: that there's no reason not to include them
on every device for possible future capability (or covert data gathering capability).

If unused by the product... it will just be unlisted on the spec sheet, and not software enabled.

Expect pretty soon: even simple appliances like the Smoke Detectors in every room, Electric Blankets, Vibrators, Light Switches, Wall Outlets, Toilets, Showers, Bathtubs, Faucets, Refrigerators, Microwaves, Coffee Pots, Dishwashers, Washing machines, Ovens, Stoves, etc... to all include a tiny logic board, wireless internet capability, and a little microphone and speaker: maybe eventually a tiny little camera to go with the microphone.

Eavesdropping, Bugging - Who's researching the law

[eepok]

Assume that someone deceives you and convinces you to unwittingly install a microphone in your home that they can turn on at any time. They haven't actually turned it on, no conversation was heard/recorded. Is it still officially bugging/eavesdropping?

Who's doing the legal deep dive on this?

Nest Protect

[Chaldean42]

Now I'm curious if they'll do the same with their line of smoke/CO detectors. It's already known that they contain microphones to allow them to "test" the alarms once a month.

Next Release

[Xarin]

The unlisted video camera is enabled.

Re: Some people buy hardware for what is not cont

[HiThere]

Unfortunately, some of the cameras recently reported for "smart phones" are reported to work through the screen. (I'm not sure this is the "notch", though I suppose it could be marketing speech for that.)

If this is doing what the article said, then it might be a bit difficult to cover the camera.

WAIT!

[TheStickBoy]

Nest sold a product....
to be placed in private homes....
that had a microphone...
and they purposefully hid this fact...

I don't even....anymore...I....ugh.

Re:Eavesdropping, Bugging - Who's researching the

[terrycarlino]

Pretty much nobody is going to do anything about this. There is no will among regulators to do anything about this. Don't blame the Republicans. If the Democrats were in control it would be no different. Or perhaps blame them both. It won't get you anything, but you can feel justified they're all slimeballs.

If a lawyer can make a class action lawsuit out of this, perhaps something will happen. This system came out about a year and a half ago. I didn't really see it in stores until last year. How many units have they sold? I've read that you can do a class action with as little as 40 people. Nest claims to have sold 11 million items, but I would be surprised if more than tens of thousands Nest Secures have been sold. It runs about $300. So that's like what $3 million buck ber 10,000 consumers in play? Not counting penalties. Is that enough for a set of high priced lawyers to take them to court for a protracted legal battle? I don't think so, but what do i know?

Re:THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE THERMOSTAT!

[HiThere]

And since this is only about one Nest product, you should trust the others.

Granted, the thermostat thing was sparked off by the Honeywell thread earlier, but why should you trust the Nest one?

Re:Some people buy hardware for what is not contai

[pjbgravely]

Apple patented a camera that was embedded in the screen. I never heard anything about it since. I wonder if they started using them but never told anyone.