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Hundreds Rally For Their Right To Not Vaccinate Their Children (msn.com)
CBS News reports that as Washington state confronts a measles outbreak which has sickened at least 56 people, "hundreds rallied to preserve their right not to vaccinate their children."
They packed a public hearing for a new bill making it harder for families to opt out of vaccination requirements, reports The Washington Post: An estimated 700 people, most of them opposed to stricter requirements, lined up before dawn in the cold, toting strollers and hand-lettered signs, to sit in the hearing.... The Pacific Northwest is home to some of the nation's most vocal and organized anti-vaccination activists. That movement has helped drive down child immunizations in Washington, as well as in neighboring Oregon and Idaho, to some of the lowest rates in the country, with as many as 10.5 percent of kindergartners statewide in Idaho unvaccinated for measles. That is almost double the median rate nationally....
One activist who spoke Friday, Mary Holland, who teaches at New York University law school and said her son has a vaccine-related injury, warned lawmakers that if the bill passes, many vaccine opponents will "move out of the state, or go underground, but they will not comply."
The sponsor of a similar bill in Oregon says that anti-vaxxers "have every right to make a bad decision in the health of their child, but that does not give them the right to send an unprotected kid to public school. So if they want to homeschool their kid and keep them out of other environments, that's their decision."
But there are still 17 U.S. states that allow "personal or philosophic exemptions to vaccination requirements," reports the Post, "meaning virtually anyone can opt out." (Though some states are now considering changes.) "The enablers are state legislators in those states, that have allowed themselves to be played," complains Dr. Peter Hotez, a co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston.
The World Health Organization estimates that measles vaccines have saved over 21 million lives since 2000. But last year in the European region's population of nearly 900 million people, at least 82,600 people contracted measles, reports Reuters. "Of those, 72 cases were fatal."
They packed a public hearing for a new bill making it harder for families to opt out of vaccination requirements, reports The Washington Post: An estimated 700 people, most of them opposed to stricter requirements, lined up before dawn in the cold, toting strollers and hand-lettered signs, to sit in the hearing.... The Pacific Northwest is home to some of the nation's most vocal and organized anti-vaccination activists. That movement has helped drive down child immunizations in Washington, as well as in neighboring Oregon and Idaho, to some of the lowest rates in the country, with as many as 10.5 percent of kindergartners statewide in Idaho unvaccinated for measles. That is almost double the median rate nationally....
One activist who spoke Friday, Mary Holland, who teaches at New York University law school and said her son has a vaccine-related injury, warned lawmakers that if the bill passes, many vaccine opponents will "move out of the state, or go underground, but they will not comply."
The sponsor of a similar bill in Oregon says that anti-vaxxers "have every right to make a bad decision in the health of their child, but that does not give them the right to send an unprotected kid to public school. So if they want to homeschool their kid and keep them out of other environments, that's their decision."
But there are still 17 U.S. states that allow "personal or philosophic exemptions to vaccination requirements," reports the Post, "meaning virtually anyone can opt out." (Though some states are now considering changes.) "The enablers are state legislators in those states, that have allowed themselves to be played," complains Dr. Peter Hotez, a co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston.
The World Health Organization estimates that measles vaccines have saved over 21 million lives since 2000. But last year in the European region's population of nearly 900 million people, at least 82,600 people contracted measles, reports Reuters. "Of those, 72 cases were fatal."
If they go live on a deserted island and never come back, I'm OK with it.
If not, they are a danger to society and should not be allowed to mingle with normal people.
I want a religious exemption from speed limits.
I wouldn't want to gather in a group of other like-wise people when there's an outbreak.
Or ever for that matter.
Totally with you, I mean which sane person would want their enemies to live a longer healthier life?
Call CPS, have them come get the kids. It's a danger to themselves and to the public safety. Enough with these loony tunes who think it's their right to endanger their offspring and the general population.
to schools. In America schools are funded at the local level by property taxes. That means that unless the feds step in to make up the difference you get really really rich schools and really really poor ones. This is how we can spend more on average than the rest of the world but with worse outcomes. We're putting all our eggs in one basket (the rich kid's one). But Herd Immunity doesn't give a rats ass how much money your mom and dad have.
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... then they should pay for the public health costs that arise because of their decision. It is a welfare of the community issue. Laws are often made to protect the community from the bad decisions of individuals.
... of those who contract measles, and their insurance fees should reflect that added risk.
/
Only by making the costs or either decision transparent, you can address both the unfounded and the founded fears of vaccinations risks versus non-vaccinations risks.
While the benefit of the measles vaccination seems obvious to most, actual scandals surrounding other vaccinations have cast shadows of doubt on just every vaccination, especially for those who do not differentiate.
One tragic contemporary example:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Then get the fuck out of the country then. We don't want measles and other shit here.
You are entitled to your opinions. But you are not entitled to your own facts. Herd immunity is a real thing with real evidence behind it. If you don’t like it, tough.
Anti-vaxxers should be tied down and vaccinated like every other farm animal that doesn’t know what’s best for it.
The ones that explicitly stuff their babies into a blender are obviously more moral, because they're upfront about murdering their own child. Anti-vaxxers instead choose to murder their own offspring while shifting the blame elsewhere.
Also, if you're offended about stuffing babies in blenders, perhaps you should also be offended about not vaccinating children that could otherwise be protected.
The right to reproduce comes with responsibilities. Would these people also argue for the right to not feed, clothe, or house their children?
Clearly those actions (or lack of) would constitute child neglect and abuse.
"Herd immunity" should not be the focus here. The focus should be on parental responsibility. Parents are obligated to care for their children - so much so that we've codified that care into law.
Parents that do not vaccinate their children should be held accountable for neglecting their legally required responsibilities to their children.
My libertarian side says - if you don't want to care for your crotch fruit - don't have kids.
And what price are you going to put on the price of a death caused by them not vaccinating their child(ren)?
We need more of these rallies. Include a couple of people in them that have the measles or something else that they chose not to vaccinate against.
When a few of them get sick and see how their kids are suffering, and that it was spread by their rally, maybe they'll wise up and get their kids vaccinated.
"have every right to make a bad decision in the health of their child"
No they fucking don't. Whenever someone causes harm to their children, either by a deliberate act or neglect, we call it child abuse. Why would this be any different ?
I'm appaled by the number of people who still see their children as we did in barbaric times; as their personal property, to do with them as they please, with the right of life and death over them.
We are not fucking barbarians anymore. This is the 21st century. We live in a civilized society now, or at least we should be. And in civilized societies, human beings don't own other human beings. Your children are not your children, no matter what your fucking animal instincts tell you. Your children, are citizens, just like you are, with the whole gammut of basic human rights every evolved and civilized culture agrees on. They are under your care until they reach the legal age of independance. And until then, your are required, by law, and by basic human decency to provide them with the best possible care. And so is society as a whole. That's why every civilized nation has mandatory education. And also why every such nation has, or should have nationalized health care for all children.
Grow the fuck up, people. Barbarism, tribalism, social Darwinism are over. Join the civilized world.
They showed up by themselves, sterilize them all and take away their children now. These people don't deserve children. They are endangering the lives of not only their kids, but of other people who can't be vaccinated all based on their emotions and inability to understand that just because someone had a reaction to a vaccine that it somehow means all vaccines are bad.
By coming together in one place like this, all it takes is one person with measles to decimate them. I would expect them to be concerned about this, even if they do not wish to be vaccinated. I wonder if the adults are vaccinated? Like, were they vaccinated as children, yet they don't want their children vaccinated?
If you don't vaccinate your children, you have to register.
Then when there's an outbreak the rest of us know who to sue for our loss.
These people think there's no cost or downside to not vaccinating.
Just wait 'til they get the bill. They might think again.
And I really meant idiots... Hope they won't cry because of a measles epidemic, like the recent in NY State
This has been subject to lots of prior considerations - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Incubating now.
This perpetual motion machine Lisa made is a joke, it just keeps getting faster and faster. - Homer
You don't want to "mandate", but at the same time you don't want to create a disease problem (especially one that could escalate).
I don't think the "homeschool" safety option is necessarily "safe".
We're probably going to have to mandate vaccinations and live with the small amount of "collateral damage" (autonomous vehicles will rack up more collateral damage that this).
So we have somewhere to put these idgits.
It is worth nothing. And they are not experts. You are not well informed. I would suggest pulling your head out of your ass instead of following blindly people who do not care about you or your niece.
Vaccinations are part of your public responsibility, like following traffic laws. If you don't want to obey traffic laws, that's easy: don't have a vehicle. If you don't want to vaccinate your kids, that's fine, don't have kids.
I'm not hugely worried about compliance. An idiot can speed through town a time or three, but eventually they'll get caught. Children's immunizations should be signed off by a pediatrician, and verified at the beginning of every school year, when buying that summer pass to the swimming pool, and other occasions.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
They're all so anti-vaccine and pro-disease, I'm sure they would have been just fine with a couple of the active measles patients coming to the hearing.
That'd help things along.
But dont let your kid near any of my family.
Debunked, debunked and debunked. There are quite a few studies that show there's no link between mercury compounds in vaccines and autism. And believe it or not scientists and health care professionals are not "out to get you" with some giant conspiracy to give your kid autism.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The smartest man in the world believes vaccines are a danger.
http://fortune.com/2017/02/16/...
You are welcome on my lawn.
Mortality improved for lots of reasons, "Total Food" likely not being any one of them. Things like ventilators, dialysis, antibiotics, and recognition of quarantine practices all improved mortality in the early 1900s. But just because you can save a person by spending huge amounts of money and ventilating them in the ICU doesn't mean that's the best way to manage an illness. Pretty sure those kids would prefer to have never gotten sick in the first place.
I'm all for vaccinating children, but forcing it on parents is wrong.
Public safety has to be forced on people for their own good. Things like speed limits and lane markings actually work to cut down traffic accidents. Just letting people drive however the hell they want is dangerous. Things like how to wire your house and building codes actually work to reduce avoidable fires, building collapses, health problems, etc. Just letting people build a house however the hell they want is dangerous. Likewise vaccines. No, it's NOT up to the parents. It's public health policy. You don't like it - tough. It's not all "my rights". It's rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
If ever there was a legitimate time for Trump to order a drone strike on a location it was then and there.
Following your own logic - if every American born citizen is vaccinated then it doesn't matter if illegals come with disease as it would strictly affect illegals...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Nope, all the south american countries have a much higher vaccination rate than the US. In fact the illegals are the one taking a big risk coming here.
No point in trying to educate people who have been told by authorities they trust that education is dangerous.
People shouldn't be forced to do things, even if they are for their own good. And for better or worse, children are generally seen as extensions of their parents from a legal perspective at least to a degree. If they want to take a risk with their kids lives they will be the ones to suffer the consequences. Let the foolishness weed itself out. And all of the "what if" ("danger" to other kids, herd immunity, etc) scenarios fall pretty flat on their faces when you compare them to DAILY risks to adult/children that we seem all to all to happy to ignore (access to healthcare, accidents, suicide, sports injuries). 95% of the worlds problems would end if people stopped trying to boss around their neighbors "for their own good" (who you can marry, what you can eat, what belief system you hold, what you can put in/take out of your body, etc).
The great majority of vaccines are extremely valuable. Unfortunately the same can't be said in general for everything provided by the medical industry, and uninformed / uneducated people may not understand the fundamental difference between say vaccines and over-prescribed pain killers.
Its easy to think that everyone should be informed, but despite our best efforts one out of ten of the population is in the bottom 10% in terms of understanding things. That is still a lot of people and we need to help them know how to decide.
I ran into a social media post recently where a mother was saying that she didn't trust doctors do inject "chemicals" into her children, and showed a (true) story about a child who died of a flu vaccine.
The people opposing vaccination are not evil, they just have not be taught statistics and rational thought. They have no idea how vaccines work. They don't know what sources of information to trust.
Children are not property. Parents a guardians, not owners.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Dear Americans,
not everything can be reduced to a sum of money.
What cost exactly do you plan to tell parents you assigned to the death of their child?
And how will some material trinkets bring back that specific life?
No, the right choice is that they don't get to mingle with us at all, if they made decisions that make them a danger to us.
Originally, that's what prisons were created for. But to be fair to everyone, I'd tell them they can make their own country, with Jesus and measles. And we’ll put an embargo on their asses. If their country succeeds more than ours, we bow and tip our hats to them for having been stupid. But if they start dying, they'll better be prepared to come begging on their knees and promise to play along from now on.
Group all of the herd mentality leechers together somewhere and let them die off to measles, pertussis, and polio
Besides, many childhood vaccines, including the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR) never contained any preservative or any mercury.
Vaccinations are good.
Using accurate data to make decisions is good.
Emotional decisions that contradict verified facts are bad.
Religions are bad.
Any questions?
It is good that nobody hear your opinion.
That's just what a conspirator would say.
Highway speed limits are for fund raising. They have almost nothing to do with safety and everyone knows it.
Speed limits on residential streets are for safety. Notice there's not much enforcement of those. Because traffic enforcement is mostly for fund raising, not for safety.
You are not being polite. If we ban the vaccines, Slashdot will lack the pack of asperger users that reply on this forums.
You really need to look at this as a game theory decision. They are not as crazy as they sound (well, some of them are). Even if they don't know it, they are making the following calculation.
The probability of a negative vaccine reaction is finite, somewhere between 1/50,000 to 1/1,000,000 depending on the vaccine, maybe higher when you throw in human error. The odds of bad outcome from not being vaccinated = the probability of contracting the disease multiplied by the probability of a severe negative reaction. So if I figure 90%+ of the general population is vaccinated, the odds of my kid actually contracting the disease AND having a negative reaction is probably much smaller than the odds of a negative reaction from the vaccine. The "cost" of being vaccinated is higher than the "cost" of not being vaccinated.
This creates a strong incentive to "cheat" and not get vaccinated. Obviously this only works if the number of non-vax remains small, and endangers those who can't get the vaccine for some reason. You can call them names all you want, but they are ultimately making a rational (if selfish) decision. It's important to understand this if hoping to tackle the problem. Hoping and screaming at people to become altruistic is not helpful. A more reasonable approach is to raise the cost of not being vaccinated. This could be done literally with a fine, or by barring them from public school, raising health care premiums etc.
As with any actual medical analysis, the details are important, often difficult to understand for people who aren't medical professionals, and sadly often give rise to irrational fears among the population. If you look at the WHO analysis there is a group of people who are at risk for a slightly negative outcome over those in that same subset of people who went unvaccinated. This can be in principle reduced to a positive for society and individuals with a screening test, even if there is a slight false negative result. If you have sources showing this company acted in bad faith, or suppressed research results for profit, I would be interested to hear it. From everything I've seen the pushback is mostly emotional and unfounded.
These are the people who elected Trump, based on his promise to bring about the second coming of Christ and the thousand year reich of Israel.
It stands to reason that a parent, rightfully, has a right to determine the environment in which their child is raised, but in a civilized society, that right should exist only to the extent that the there is some empirical evidence that how they are raising the child is not objectively harmful to the child nor objectively potentially harmful to that society.
There are two general classifications for objecting to vaccinations: one is for medical reasons, and the other is on philosophical grounds. Vaccinating children who for established medical reasons should not be vaccinated would clearly cause objectively measurable harm to those children, so it fails on that metric. Fortunately, the percentage of people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons has a clear upper bound, and as a result the increased risk it poses to society is negligible on account of herd immunity, which actually helps to protect the unvaccinated children. Thus, not vaccinating children that cannot be safely vaccinated on account of medical reasons appears to be okay.
However, on the subject of philosophical grounds, there is no upper limit on the number of people who could potentially adopt such a view, and so the principle of herd immunity can start to break down. Those who willfully choose to be unvaccinated start to pose a significant measurable threat to the welfare and safety of the previously mentioned class of people who have no real choice in the matter, and because vaccinations are not foolproof, they even pose an modestly increased threat to those who are vaccinated as well (where the latter group would have otherwise been protected by the principle of herd immunity, just as those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons would be, because they are such a small percentage of the population).
And it is to that extent that I would disagree with your assessment that vaccinations should not be forced on children in society who cannot show that there are clear and objectively verifiable medical reasons that the child should not be. The threat to the child and to others around them is simply too great. The only option for parents who wish to do this, in my view, is to retreat from society entirely, and raise their children in an isolated community where they cannot pose a risk to the remainder of society.
Death by illness is always regrettable, but death by illness for which vaccinations exist is doubly so simply because it is entirely preventable with the technology that we have achieved today. It is the height of selfishness and inconsideration for anyone's welfare but one's own to refuse to vaccinate one's child simply because of some philosophy about them they have adopted when that belief has not been sufficiently peer reviewed to become accepted as scientific and objective fact.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
if one of them had measles 90% of the none vaccinated will catch it and go bankrupt due to medical bills.
Do I get to choose what to inject into you?
Does Donald Trump choose what gets injected into you?
Blacks in Tuskegee learned the hard way that you can't trust the government "Public Health" services when they want to inject stuff into you.
Keep this silliness off Slashdot.
I'd like to hear from the families of the 72 fatalities. Are they happy with their decision? Would they do anything different?
The reactions to this news piece, and to some extent even the way it is written perfectly demonstrate the dysfunctional dynamic gripping America right now. Everything is an OUTRAGE, and the solution that is immediately proposed is a PUNISHMENT. It is an OUTRAGE that these parents should not want to vaccinate their children. The parents should be PUNISHED by being exiled to a desert island or by having their children removed by CPS.
I would like to challenge you all to find some empathy in your heart and focus on ways to improve voluntary compliance with all the wonderful things you think everyone else should do. I mean, I am sure you are right, because you are smart and you have all the answers. But please focus on gently and kindly educating others instead of sending police of some sort around to force them to do whatever you think is in their best interest.
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Then take their children away. Those children would be safer and healthier anywhere else than with those ignorant cretins as parents
Do antivaxers know that medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US? If their kid gets sick, they may literally lose everything. Stupid selfish pricks.
As a practicing pediatrician I think the antivaxxers should be taken into the town square and shot publicly. Or better yet, put into an isolation room and infected with polio, varicella, rubeola... letâ(TM)s run the garrot.
I'm all for vaccines but mandating people have a medical procedure is pretty fascist. The old way of not admitting them to school is my preferred method. Likewise, if you want to drive the public roads you have to comply with traffic laws. If you want to live in a city, your house has to be up to code.
But if you want to live out in the sticks and drive on your own property, guess what... you don't. So FORCING parents to vaccinate sets a dangerous precedent. Public health can be applied to your diet, level of exercise, and leisure activities too. In the future we may have bio implants that control behavior or just used as identification, are we going to make people get them based on public safety too? Where do you draw the line.
Right now on the surface it seems like a good idea and we can laugh at the anti-vaxers being ignorant. Even so, what if you want one vaccine over another and the government mandates a particular carrying unwanted side-effects? Life is not one size fits all. Collectivism loves sacrificing individuals for the common good but then those "responsibilities" never flow in reverse.
I didn’t read the article, but I’m pretty sure Slashdot cut the headline off early. I’m not sure how it was supposed to end, but I have a few guesses:
Hundreds Rally For Their Right To Not Vaccinate Their Children...
...measles outbreak ensues
...thousands expected but had to stay home with sick children
...in what turns out to be the largest CPS sting in history
...casket futures soar
...millions mourn the demise of reason
...immigrants ask if they can fill the upcoming vacancies
...then find that their doctors refuse to see them
...Doomsday Clock moved closer to midnight
...last surviving Iron Lung users gather to protest rally
I was going to add:
...pastor tells them to “stop being stupid”
But that one actually happened after a measles outbreak in Texas a few years back. The pastor who pushed an anti-vaccine agenda thankfully had the sense to tell everyone to go get vaccinated once the people in their community were getting sick, since the immediate harm was of significantly and obviously greater concern than the fictional harm they were all worried about.
So some people on here think child protective services should be called if parents don't want to vaccinate their kids. Should child protective services also be called on parents who don't want to circumcise their boys? After all, science tells us that there is a margin of error percent chance of a boy getting a disease by having an intact foreskin, but there's a chance, right? Let's also not forget about the beauty and cosmetic industry that relies on a steady supply of little boy's foreskins to stay in business. I hope everyone on the vaccination defense force got trheir yearly flu shot and had your daughters get the HPV vaccination? The science behind these things is sound, you know. Just ask the moms who took Thalidomide.
Maybe we should mandate all of these things too? Because there are hundreds of communicable diseases that all those protect people against -- not just measles.
https://www.drfuhrman.com/shop...
"In Disease-Proof Your Child, Dr. Fuhrman details how a Nutritarian [vegetable-emphasizing etc.] diet increases a child's resistance to common childhood illnesses like asthma, ear infections, and allergies. He explains how eating a high-nutrient diet during childhood protects against developing chronic illness including cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and autoimmune disorders."
https://www.everydayfamily.com...
"What all of this means, unfortunately, is that while breastfeeding generally provides the most protection against measles for babies when they are newborns and up to six months, those antibodies wane as they baby gets older. Currently, the CDC doesn't recommend that infants get the MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella) vaccine until they are 12 months old, so babies who are my daughter's age â" 6 months â" are lacking in that protection."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...
"It is now clear that vitamin D has important roles in addition to its classic effects on calcium and bone homeostasis. As the vitamin D receptor is expressed on immune cells (B cells, T cells and antigen presenting cells) and these immunologic cells are all are capable of synthesizing the active vitamin D metabolite, vitamin D has the capability of acting in an autocrine manner in a local immunologic milieu. Vitamin D can modulate the innate and adaptive immune responses. Deficiency in vitamin D is associated with increased autoimmunity as well as an increased susceptibility to infection. As immune cells in autoimmune diseases are responsive to the ameliorative effects of vitamin D, the beneficial effects of supplementing vitamin D deficient individuals with autoimmune disease may extend beyond the effects on bone and calcium homeostasis."
https://www.health.harvard.edu... ..."
"Just like a healthy diet, exercise can contribute to general good health and therefore to a healthy immune system. It may contribute even more directly by promoting good circulation, which allows the cells and substances of the immune system to move through the body freely and do their job efficiently.
Adequate sleep is also important for immune function:
https://valleysleepcenter.com/...
"One reason our immune system function is so closely tied to our sleep is that certain disease-fighting substances are released or created while we sleep. Our bodies need these hormones, proteins, and chemicals in order to fight off disease and infection. Sleep deprivation, therefore, decreases the availability of these substances leaving us more susceptible to each new virus and bacteria we encounter. This can also cause us to being sick for a longer period of time as our bodies lack the resources to properly fight whatever it is that is making us sick."
If the logic of forced vaccination holds up, shouldn't we also be putting people in jail for giving children junk food -- as well as for producing or selling junk food consumed by children?
Or maybe we should jail people who are not getting enough sleep (e.g. people who stay up late reading Slashdot) and so are posing a health risk to everyone?
Or is that too slippery a slope for people here to consider?
Humor also boost the immune system. So maybe people who don't laugh enough should also be sent to jail as a health risk? :-)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.ni
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Satan is laughing
what is it Cartman says about stupid hippies?
This comment and clearly half of them in this thread are some sort of crazy propaganda campaign. The density of antivax proponents is too sharp a contrast from the norm of this site
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
One of my kids started school a little early. Just the way the dates worked out. Born in late December, he was younger than everyone else in his class.
After a few years, the school came to me and said "Your kid needs this Vaccination to stay in school." It's like the 4th or 5th in a series. They have to be taken at regular intervals, years apart.
So I looked it up myself, and I checked with my kid's pediatrician, and my kid was right on track for his vaccines according the American Academy of Pediatrics. Now me, I'd rather go with the doctors' well researched opinions than some idiotic droid of a bureaucrat and poorly designed laws written by pharmacological companies to beef up their bottom line at the expense of the very children they claim to be protecting.
So I looked up the law, the actual wording of the law. And according to the law I can claim an exemption from vaccinating due to personal beliefs. So I did. And for my beliefs I put down "Medical Science" and "Doctor's Recommendations". And, a year or two later, when the doctors felt the timing was right, my kid got vaccinated.
There are people who don't vaccinate at all, and they're idiots. Really, read up on tetanus/lockjaw. Vaccines start to sound really good!
But do not underestimate the gross stupidity of bureaucrats enforcing arbitrary one size fits all rules just so they can check off a box.
I for one am grateful to the anti-vax crowd, even if they're Darwin Award candidates.
So we can force people to vaccinate but we can't force people to have an ID?
1) Most the stuff you and your children can not catch because you were vaccinated so being exposed isn't a problem. That is why you got vaccinated in the 1st place.
2) If their kids suffer, it's their own fault. We don't have civilized healthcare but if we did, then it would cost the tax payers something and an argument could be had on that front.
3) We are overpopulated.
4) Bad paranoid parents of low IQ (in your opinion) then shouldn't be stopped from lowering their own impact on the gene pool. We have to stop helping Darwin Award contenders from having as many offspring as they can.
5) The actually quite corrupt medical industry does actually create problems and cover them up. Big Tobacco was an extreme example and it took decades and they are still bigger corps now than ever. The medical industry is less evil and more influential, to not imagine them getting away with murder for profit is just naive.
6) Statistics. Americans do not grasp math, especially statistics. Even so, people don't think rationally most the time and when you say their kid has a 10% chance of being fucked up unless they get a shot with a 1% chance of also being fucked up... if they hear about that 1% they don't want to take the risk. Don't just apply this topic, Americans freak over everything that isn't even HALF as deadly as driving a car.
7) P.R. firms helped create the problem. Hired to do a brilliant divide and conquer on where they can get you science and math people attacking their critics for them. Instead of all people uniting against a single bad drug, we've got a Luddite war and nobody is even talking about specifics which would harm the PR firm's employer.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Quarantine those nasty buggers and give them their shots, while we have them together.
IIUC there is a problem with Dengue fever, in that there are multiple strains, a vaccine against one not only doesn't protect against a different one, it can make that strain considerably more deadly. And the immune system won't allow you to vaccinate against all of them.
OTOH, I'm not real certain of the name of the particular illness. And it was my understanding that it occurred in South America, not in the Philippines. Still, the effect is real, and at the time I read the article how to deal with it wasn't clear.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Just have someone with measles walk into the crowd and start coughing without covering their mouth repeatedly and let Darwin sort things out.
It is the same thing.
Umnh...you think you have infinitely fast reaction time? That you can miraculously kill momentum without skid marks? Or what is the basis for your belief about highway speed limits?
P.S.: The autobahn has (had?) more serious accidents than other roads per mile driven. They were talking about imposing speed limits on it (in the interest of uniformity in traffic regulations across Europe). I don't know what decision they made/are making.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Where do you live that you aren't forced to have an ID? I live in the US. When I turned 16 I got a social security number, and when I turned 18 I was registered for the draft. (I wasn't drafted, but I was registered.) Earlier as a boy scout my fingerprints were sent to be registered with the FBI. These days infants are given social security numbers at birth keyed to (I think) their foot-prints, but possibly to their DNA. If not, that's coming soon.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
One problem with this is a number of doctors who were falsely certifying that children shouldn't be vaccinated for medical reasons. You need to deal with that.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Antivaxxer are way more common among conservatives especially the fringe types and Infowars fans....
Evidence? If not, I'll consider you a troll.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Should the sheep fully trust the shepherd? Has the US government ever used citizens as guinea pigs "for the greater good"? Have pharmaceutical companies ever gotten sued for selling a product that they *KNEW from their own testing* was injurious? Is there a single pharmaceutical that hasn't been sued in the last few years for corruption / evading controls / hiding side effects? Doctors and insurance companies and politicians and pharmaceuticals are all made of upstanding, honest people who never cut corners, take bribes, inject their own ego or bias, and always act for the good of the individual, the greater good, and never to line their own pockets. Do you trust them fully? Partially? Where should you draw the line?
The vaccine manufactures have legislative immunity - they can not be sued. They do not have any economic incentive to make products safer. If they straight-up packaged cyanide and sold it as a vaccine they couldn't be sued without changing the laws first. Is this a trustworthy position? How many other products do you use where the supplier/manufacturer has complete legislative immunity? Would you be comfortable buying a car if you knew that you could not sue the manufacturer even if they cut corners which caused you to crash?
The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) program has paid billions of dollars in compensation to people injured by vaccines in the last three decades to people injured by vaccines. Even the most wildly high estimates say that no more than 5% of adverse reactions are reported.
The Department of Health and Human Services was mandated to report in 1986 to Congress every two years about vaccine safety. They have yet to submit a single report. HHS admitted in court to failing to perform their job, as well as breaking federal law. Should you trust the government to ensure vaccine safety? Is the government that keeps failing to do their own paperwork a good watchdog?
At some point, combining repeatedly untrustworthy companies and repeatedly untrustworthy government and mandating that you not simply buy a product, but use it, not just use it, but inject it - for the greater good - should require a lot more research, a lot more transparency, and a lot more trust - and trust that has been repeatedly violated.
They also have plenty out there to show NO inheritance link at all for Autism. That one is proven. Correlation has to show up for causes but it shows up for other factors which is why it's not a two way conditional. You can disprove with it but not prove.
Aspergers; however, was shown to have genetic correlation and in a study which covered autism as well (which had no link.) It's a strong case for them to not be merged together.
Therefore, the shots have nothing to do with Aspergers; but they might with Autism (because the link is there, but it's going to be hard to ever prove; disproving it will be much easier other than the fact that requires checking tons of drugs 1 at a time.)
The shot people describe a mercury poisoning situation which fits extremely close with Autism and it does take a really long time for that poisoning to go down; which leaves permanent damage to a growing brain. I have an autistic relative who has improved greatly over 14 years; likely as result of it slowly working out of his system. I expect him to be impacted in a permanent way having grown up with it. His behavior is more like Asperger now and quite likely would be classified under that at this point... but not textbook Asperger... (not many are textbook.) Since Asperger is a developmental disorder, it can largely be trained away so outward signs go away, if that is desired. Naturally, growing up that way leaves a permanent perspective. I know quite a bit about Asperger; most end up pretty "normal" by 30; not any more unusual than other major personality groups. The main problems being dealing with all those normal groups' expectations... who now can just call them nerds. (Not that all nerds are, but I can't see much difference between a mature Aspy and a nerd. Certainly not enough to bother to make distinctions anymore.)
It's no great insight that humans are frequently capable of almost unbelievable stupidity. The key here, as it turns out, is the ability to change one's mind, and the extremes on both the right a left tend towards the inability to do so. It's why this specific idiocy strikes both of those extremes; on the right the religious nutjobs, and on the left the earthycrunchy nutjobs. It makes one's life easier to not have to think, and if your brain isn't an especially good one in the first place, then extreme beliefs become an easy way to turn off one's already malfunction, or at least poorly functioning, grey-matter. There was a time when we didn't know that the whole vaccine-danger thing was fabricated B.S. At that point it was normal, even correct, for people to be worried, because we thought there was real evidence behind it. Then it turned out to be fake. At that point a person must change his/her/(other) belief, and the failure to do so probably indicates a relatively low IQ.
P.S. People who believe so strongly in not vaccinating their children should certainly be willing to pay the price; their children can't attend any schools (home-schooling only), and if they do get sick they are not allowed to go to the hospital or see a medical professional in any way. In the event their child dies, or another child is infected by an un-vaccinated child and dies (or is otherwise injured), then the parents are charged with murder, gross-bodily injury, etc.
I don't know about the distribution across the political spectrum, but one thing is for sure, they are all stupid people.
You have to have a license to have a dog. Why not a license to have a kid? The application should have some questions like.
There is ___ magical sky fairy?
The magical sky fairy will ___ save my kids?
Science ___ the magical sky fairy.
Some think like that?
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Don't wanna vaccinate? Then please move into the woods and never expose anyone to your unvaccinated kids. Also, no doctors for you. You forfeit the right to all doctor and hospital care. You can stitch your own wounds and set your own bones, since you obviously know better than the professionals.
They should just make a law about this and be done with it. No one should have the right to endanger their fellow citizens based on falsehoods, unfounded paranoid and/or plain stupidity.
Society needs to shun these people like the lepers they aspire to be.
Parents get to decide how to raise their children not the State. More and more communist indoctrinating going on. I support the rights of the parents. Although I would advise them to get vaccinated.
Since these "people" refuse to be a part of society, ship 'em off to no-mans land where they can all needlessly suffer their preventable diseases amongst themselves. Good riddance.
This will go a long way towards promoting trust for vaccines:
- Get rid of the secret vaccine courts and move them to the public courts & public record,
- Remove government laws which protects vaccine manufacturers from being sued, and
- Not forcing the Public to pay for damages when things go wrong with a manufacturer's vaccine.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. Civilization and society have no benefit to anyone and we should all be able to just do whatever we want whenever we want to do it. I mean, what's the point of having laws? I don't want some people I don't know telling me what I can and can't do. Screw that. Why should those people have authority over me just because I happen to live in the same country or state, or city as them? I didn't ask them to build all those roads and utility systems that have been around since before I was born. Why should I pay taxes to maintain, repair, or expand them? Let it all fall apart.
Why do people like you always post as anonymous cowards?
Maine will pass a law this year and vaccination will no longer be optional. That's fine with me.
Seriously? WTF? As much as I hate to say it, an outbreak of Measles isn't going to convince anti-vaxers to vaccinate their kids. Measles comes and then goes. It's long term health effects aren't seen for years or decades. What will knock some sense in these idiots is if we have a Polio outbreak and only their unvaccinated kids end up in wheelchairs, needing braces, or trapped in an iron lung.
Forcing someone to do something against their will is unethical and immoral. Paying taxes is not immoral or unethical.
Except immigrants have higher vaccination rates than the USA: https://www.who.int/immunizati... vs https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fasta...
many vaccine opponents will "... go underground..."
Do they mean something like 6 feet under?
Quick! Now is our chance to take them all out at once!
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
Most of the anti vaccination folks I have had the surprised pleasure to encounter are very conservative and very much âoesalt of the earth peopleâ. Apologies to the movie Blazing Saddles
Driving is a privilege not a right. Building codes not sure where you going with that because nobody is forcing anyone to build a house or live in a building let alone forcing you to walk into a building. Zone ordinances and building codes only restrict what you can do not force you to do. In the USA the State does not have the power or authority to tell you how to raise your kids period.
Your points are nonsense. People drive at reasonable speeds and still get fined for it. Everyone knows it. Speed limits on highways aren't established for safety.
When they raise the speed limits, drivers don't go much faster. Speed differentials between vehicles drop. That makes up for the marginal danger of higher speeds. But fund raising becomes harder. So usually they keep the limits artificially low.
Instead of treating us like people, government in the US treats us like cattle to be milked for taxes and fines.
Deaths from Measles since 2000 in US: 4 Deaths from Measles Vaccine (MMR): 457 People disabled from MMR Vaccine: 1,726 Hospitalizations from MMR vaccine: 6,902 Adverse reactions from MMR vaccine: 92,844 They are sooo safe and effective that there is even a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund... https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-c... "Total compensation paid over the life of the program is approximately $3.9 billion." https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/def... Measles is a mild infection that resolve by itself. Google Fact (on the right) - Extremely rare - 188 US cases in 2015 - Short-term: resolves within days to weeks https://g.co/kgs/Wipyhp
Anti-vax rally sounds like a great place to pick up measles.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
That's an ethics violation, and should have them struck off.
You are not required to have or present ID in New Hampshire. I refused point blank to ID myself at a DUI checkpoint for a cop who was demanding it (in NH police are explicitly permitted to demand it, but you have the right to refuse, and there is no criminal charge or other violation for doing so). They made up a reason to arrest me, but I won the case and they dropped both of the made up charges that I didn't violate (ie there were multiple videos). I am in the middle of a lawsuit over retaliation on free speech grounds (it's a winnable case, not that I did it for the money).
You are not required to get or have a social security number in the United States. Government(s) do make it extremely difficult to survive on the other hand without one as a social security is often required to do nearly essential tasks like open a bank account. However you could theoretically and legally not get your child a social security number at birth today. I have a friend in New Hampshire who has refused and the hospital was not very happy about it at all. But legally there is no requirement to get a social security number for your child and the child can get one if he so pleases when he enters the workforce. This can put a damper on getting student loans and other such things as well. But again- not something you are required to get or have and his kids (one is a teenager now). I believe he did get them birth certificates at birth though. While I don't know of a law requiring you to register a birth or get a new born a birth certificate failing to do so could create some serious challenges later. Technically speaking the government can't really do anything about it legally as your birth is what determines you legality here. Not a birth certificate. However I wouldn't want to be the one going through the legal system on that one. I can easily imagine the government illegally detaining someone who does not have a birth certificate and it taking years to go through the legal system.
You are required to register for the draft if you are a male between certain ages. There isn't a social security number required. If you apply for government backed student loans you'd also be required to register for the draft. At least males. This still leaves females not having to register.
Boy scouts is a private organization and WTF. You submitted your fingerprints to the FBI? What is wrong with you? I knew better than that in elementary school and I refused on a few occasions to even do fun arts and crafty projects involving finger or hand prints. I also refused to record food intake in health class. My private life is none of the governments business.
He have created a large swath of the population who no longer beleifs in science from global warming to vaccines even the flat Earth society. These people morons are truly dangerous.
There are quite a few studies that show there's no link between mercury compounds in vaccines and autism.
And only a drooling pro-establishment mouthbreather would expect those studies to show anything else.
If you go to annual boosters, like for pet rabies shots, then you can get functional immunity. But you'll get a huge increase in side effects. Most vaccine side effects are pretty minor (soreness and swelling at injection site, mild fever), but very rarely something bizarre happens.
Since we're trying to minimize total morbidity, vaccines in areas were good coverage is expected are only strong enough to interrupt transmission. That is, to reduce the multiplication factor in the disease transmission (the "reproduction number" in epidemiology) to well below 1. It's like the difference between "self-extinguishing" (after the heat source is removed) and outright "fireproof".
The standard measles vaccine, in particular, reduces your risk of catching it, of exposed, by a factor of 21. (I got this from the NJ dept of public health.) That's plenty in a vaccinated population, but if you're living in the middle of a measles outbreak and you're exposed dozens of times, then you can catch it despite being vaccinated.
You'll see in the reports that a minority of the children infected were vaccinated.
Fine. Round them all up and put them in Walmart basement FEMA camps and provide them with blankets. The problem will take care of itself in a few weeks.
From a health insurance perspective, IMO, the cost should be the cost of the failed attempt to keep the kid alive, because that's what the health insurance company will end up paying. Basically, parents would have two choices:
So basically, an extra $38 per year should roughly cover parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids. Of course, the parents of the kid who died, assuming they know that an anti-vaxxer kid was involved in spreading it, could easily sue the parents of that kid for negligent homicide. And there's no limit to that liability. Ostensibly, the health insurance companies could require the parents to carry extra liability insurance for fear of getting caught in the middle of such a fight, in which case they might consider the risk to be 3/100,000 times a million dollars over five years, or an extra $6 per year times 30 kids, or $180 a year.
So my guess is that it would all end up being a couple of $200 to $250 dollars more per kid per year (let's call that 5%). Or if the parents are willing to let their own kid die without hospitalization in the event that he or she gets sick, it would be slightly less.
However, there's also a secondary risk that has to be factored in. The reason those rates are so low is because vaccination rates are so high. Back when vaccination rates were zero, Measles hospitalized about 1/1000 children in the U.S. every year, by my math (48,000 hospitalizations out of about 47 million people under 18). So that raises it to $14 per year per kid plus that $180 legal liability, times seven vaccines, or just shy of $1400 per year.
Still not nearly as high as I would have expected. But yeah, not vaccinating your kids is seriously expensive to society. If the anti-vaxxers had to pay a 25% premium on their health insurance per kid, they might think twice about how seriously they value their right to opt out. And this was using measles as a metric. Some diseases like mumps and rubella would likely cost less, but polio is enough more expensive to make up for those and then some.
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I'm afraid Pew disagrees with you. Thier research says that 12% of liberals believe vaccines are unsafe, but only 10% of conservatives do.
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions, but they are not allowed to have their own facts.
"Tempers are wearing thin. Let's just hope some robot doesn't kill everybody." --Bender
1) require that all students, in all schools be vaccinated.
2) require that all large districts (say more than 40K students) offer up 1 school where personal choice un-vaccinated kids can attend school. For those who have a TRUE medical excuse, they will be allowed to attend regular schools.
3) All students that are personal choice to not vaccinate, shall home school, if not attending one of the aforementioned schools.
4) any parent that is caught cheating on this will pay for any and all medical treatments of other kids, if an infection is found in said school. If a child dies and and any personal choice unvaccinated child was attending, then parents will be charged with first degree murder.
5) all universities/post elementary schools will require full vaccination.
Simple as that. The parents need to be held responsible for this. If they are the cause of others dying, then they need to be charged with murder.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
" It stands to reason that a parent, rightfully, has a right to determine the environment in which their child is raised, "
Up to a point. A individual regardless of age has the right to decide there fate. A child's expression of that should always preempt a parent or guardians decision up to the point the child can leave if the two can't come to an agreement. If a 3 year decides to leave because they don't want to live in place X where there parent had decided to live and that 3 year old is capable of walking out. It's nobody else's business to prevent it. This is an extreme example that isn't realistic, but it's demonstrates the point that it's always the individual and not government or somebody you call a parent that has the right as that would be ownership and slavery outside of the prison system was supposedly abolished. I don't think it was because people of a certain age are still treated as property and not granted equal rights to others in our society. It's morally repugnant if you ask me.
", but in a civilized society, that right should exist only to the extent that the there is some empirical evidence that how they are raising the child is not objectively harmful to the child nor objectively potentially harmful to that society. "
The problem is what you think is harmful I may think is beneficial and both positions may be valid. Harm can be beneficial. In fact we learn best by doing and danger and risk is almost always involved. Some things are harmful from a certain perception we mostly all hold, but the reality is there is very little if any actual harm resulting outside of mental trauma caused by the very societal perception of the harm itself. In other words there could be a society which did not perceive a harm and that would in itself eliminate the harm because the real harm is on the mental perspective. Nudity might be a good example of this. In some regions nobody would bat an eye at seeing a naked lady on a beach. Nobody would say a child on that beach was harmed. On the other hand in another part of the world that women would be accused of child abuse.
The problem is one of extremes. The anti-vaxxers are not doing the smart thing, but the extremists on the other side exaggerate the threat. People die all the time and the reality is a few hundred deaths doesn't even register. The risk to society nor the risk to the child is significant enough to take away a persons freedom to decide for themselves what the best course of action is. Personally I don't believe the parent has the right, nor the government here. It's the right of the child to make the decision to get vaccinated or not.
" However, on the subject of philosophical grounds, there is no upper limit on the number of people who could potentially adopt such a view, and so the principle of herd immunity can start to break down. Those who willfully choose to be unvaccinated start to pose a significant measurable threat to the welfare and safety of the previously mentioned class of people who have no real choice in the matter, and because vaccinations are not foolproof, they even pose an modestly increased threat to those who are vaccinated as well (where the latter group would have otherwise been protected by the principle of herd immunity, just as those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons would be, because they are such a small percentage of the population). "
This falls flat on its face. The risks are negligible. 10% of the population isn't vaccinated and yet there are still very few deaths. While some people may be at greater risk the vast majority of people are at greater risk from there own actions and not that of others. There are risks in society and we accept some risks and ignorantly won't accept other more negligible risks because of perceived threats. A great example would be vehicles. Vehicles kill a lot of people every year. None the less the risk of death is still negligible and the risk from kids not getting vaccinated is even smaller. If you want to reduce your risks get vaccinated. I
You don't get to have rights over another person, including your children. Children are a responsibility, not a right. You are obligated to care and provide for them until they are 18.
You do not get to decide to kill, harm, or put them in danger. By this extension, you are obligated to get them vaccinated as the overwhelming medical opinion on this topic is that the vaccines do far more good than harm. A few corner cases exist, doctors can identify them.
If you can't handle this, do not have them.
The number of doctors that do this is also quite small and unlikely to impact the herd immunity to any great degree, since strong penalties can exist for doctors that would knowingly falsify such information, and can therefore be handled on a case-by-case basis.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
This is about freedom and liberty. It is a great thing that these people have the right to assemble and rally for the right to not be forced to vaccinate their children. Many things are about risk and reward. People do have a right to be stupid, if they so choose. Tobacco is legal. Alcohol is legal. Sports cars are legal. Plastic surgery is legal. I could go on and on with this. Do you want to live in a world where some "enlightened" government officials who think they know better than you can tell you how to live your life, and make medical health care decisions for you and your family? Is it OK to have public schools provide birth control and abortions to your 14 year old daughter without your knowledge? Anyone who has ever interacted with a government agency, a public school, a health department, quickly comes to learn that those entities operate with zero accountability. As for vaccines, they are documented to cause harm, and in some cases they outright kill people, and the laws shield the vaccine manufacturers from responsibility, and that is very wrong. prsdntl
I wonder if the parents who want the right to avoid vaccinations also want the right to kill their children, kill other children, or to shoot a gun in a public place. In a sense that is what they are doing.
BTW, there are people whose immune systems are compromised and cannot get vaccines for medical reasons. They depend on herd immunity.
Hopefully, this craziness will end soon, and the government should and will require vaccines, except when their is a medical reason not to.
No Problem, since:
I have the right not to wash my hands.
I have the right to cough without covering my mouth.
I have the right to spit on the sidewalk
I have the right to sneeze without using a handkerchief
I have the right to go to your childs school sick, coughing, spitting and sniffling, without washing my hands.
I have the right to smoke around their school.
We really ought to thank these people, for doing their part to combat overpopulation.
For the record: I don't like having to advocate for an extreme solution like this, but these people are a danger to public health and they must be interdicted. I'm getting damned sick and tired of people being so wilfully ignorant and everyone else paying the price. In 2019 there is NO REASON for anyone to get measles, whooping cough, polio, or anything else there are childhood vaccinations against, these vaccinations have been used safely for DECADES and DECADES. If some adults are so stupid as to insist their kids don't get them, then someone has to step in. Sorry, but I'm not sorry at all, this is just the way it has to be.
That's fine... because that's exactly what we are trying to do. The fact that this "own society" happens to be the majority is irrelevant, and the problem is raised when antivaxxers want to also be part of that society.
Because, as I said, with no upper bound on the number of people that could voluntarily choose to not vaccinate, it poses a *proven* increased risk of death to people around them who didn't make such a voluntary choice... a risk that wouldn't exist in the first place if the only people who didn't vaccinate were those that did so for medical reasons.
I support your right to choose not to vaccinate, but you better damn well believe that I'm going to expect that you not be welcome in a society where the only grounds for refusal is objectively proven medical data.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Resorting to insults weakens your argument, it does not strengthen it. What exactly would be the benefit to "giving" a certain percentage of kids autism?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Driving is a right you earn by acquiring a license. However that right comes with responsibilities - the responsibility to obey traffic laws, and the responsibility to maintain your vehicle in good order.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Antivaxxers are most common in the segment if highly educated parents who realize what harm vaccines can do and how inefficient they are.
Like, about 90percent of them are just against harmlessl things like HPV , or against lifestyle choice vaccines like Hep-A.
Of course you liberal voting visible minorities all have to be vaccinated against Hep-A at the gun point . But not everyone wants their children being sex workers.
Can we call them what they really are? Late Term Abortionist.
American Superiority y'all! Manifest Destiny!!!
I see again, reference to "herd immunity".
Can someone explain how that works, in detail (not rubbery wishy-washing figures like 93% need to be vaccinated).
IMO, this doctor nailed it.
Dr. Russell Blaylock MD, a retired neurosurgeon:
Long-time slashdotter here -- posting anonymously cause of the haters.
I decided to actually read some of the objections of the anti-VAXers, and I agree that most of them are pretty nuts.
I also hate that the anti-VAX movement has merged with crazy fundamentalist religious zealots that make an easy target for the mob.
The fact is -- there *ARE* rational questions that can be raised about mass vaccination, except we aren't allowed to discuss this thing rationally.
Just looking at the question for 30 minutes, I realized that these things have not been properly tested for safety in a diverse population.
What caused me the greatest concern is the Aluminum Hydroxide "adjuvants" that are added to most vaccines.
They are supposed to "jolt" the immune system to "take notice" of whatever vaccine is injected and increase their effectiveness.
You can just google "aluminum hydroxide adjuvant" and see that there are lots of questions that have not been answered.
No one else in this the "discussion" has even mentioned those.
You sure you want to force that on the whole population ?
He's got a point though. There is no point using evidence or logic to argue with conspiracy nuts. All evidence is fakable in a global conspiracy. Nothing is real.
Wow. Ai is sure coming close to generating sentences that have actual meaning.
Right now it's global freezing in both hemispheres. Tell me more about Science and seventy one genders it recently discovered.
Nope, the reality is that vacines are only popular with big goverment liberals, the kind of people angry that amazing President Trump beat out there colluding criminal Clinton favourite. HA HA!
Which has nothing to do with vaccinations. Are you going to force me to not drink Alchohol or tell me what I can put into my body. Because that can be unhealthy for people around me.
the only way to play this correctly is to lay out the consequences of saying "FUCK YOU" to society in general and The Best Of Modern Medical Advice....
1) absolutely ZERO government assistance or support of any kind (no access to public schools, or ANY other government support of any kind)
2) yes that includes ANY TAX BREAKS, tax concessions, etc (they're all revoked, cuz FUCK YOU goes both ways people)
3) if you have ANY outstanding student debt it becomes IMMEDIATELY DUE IN FULL (see that FUCK YOU that you handed to society, it's not as awesome as it sounds)
4) zero Medical Insurance of any kind, for yourself or your vaccinated child (cuz if The Medical Establishment is SO TOTALLY WRONG {in your mind} don't ask them for ANY assistance)
5) should your child actually fall ill Social Services will remove them from your care, and you will be charged with CHILD ABUSE
If the logic of forced vaccination holds up, shouldn't we also be putting people in jail for giving children junk food -- as well as for producing or selling junk food consumed by children?
Maybe. But what we should definitely do is prohibit advertising to children, as they do in some nations, because studies have shown that young children cannot differentiate between commercials and programming. (There are several jokes there, yes.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Its kind of like being Pro Choice.
That's completely false. Throughout that period, the case fatality rate was one per 1,000 reported cases, or about one per 10,000 total cases, which is two orders of magnitude higher than your claim.
Also, measles resulted in hospitalization for about one out of every 1,000 minors per year. That's not one out of every 1,000 cases. That's one out of every thousand people under 18. IIRC, about one in ten of those had encephalitis as a result, and a quarter of those likely suffered permanent brain damage. Imagine one person getting brain damage per 40,000 kids, and you'll begin to understand just how wrong you are about the severity of measles.
So you're saying that it's okay for kids to die or suffer brain damage, just as long as they're poor people's kids? There's medication for that sort of thinking, you know.
Besides, you're also factually wrong. Even though the anti-vaxxers tend to be wealthy, and their kids have better nutrition than average, the current U.S. case fatality rate in the U.S. is even higher than it was in the 1960s, at 3 per thousand. Why? Because the other people who aren't vaccinated besudes the anti-vaxxers' kids are all the people who, for health reasons, legitimately cannot tolerate an attenuated virus. So no, skipping the measles vaccine isn't killing people who don't take their vitamins. Rather, it is killing people who through no fault of their own are immunocompromised.
So although it is pedantically true that case fatality rates much higher (up to one in four) occur in underdeveloped nations, this is also true for pretty much any illness. And measles is still a really bad illness even in developed countries, even today.
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Assume you want to be rich. Where do you profit from selling a lie?
I can see it in politics, we and the US both have had "monster raving looney parties". People donated money to them, and their leaders profited. Where's the profit in selling flat earths, anti-vaxes (I liked DEC's VAXes) and the like?
davecb@spamcop.net
Kids, guns and driving. All three demand good licensing.
The real response? How do you know that mercury is bad for you? ;)
I'm all for stupidity and ignorance as method of "culling herd" -- therefore, it should be the position of major governments that this choice requires them to move, off to a select land, island or other restricted area, so they can happily live out their lives with the consequences of their decisions. Leave the rest of the evolved world alone.
When they get together in herds shoot them with vaccination darts till they're all vaccinated from a chopper.
This hardening can happen without our awareness. In a study published in Pediatrics, more than 1,700 parents in the United States were sent material from one of four sample campaigns designed to reduce “misperceptions” of the dangers of the MMR vaccine.6 None of the campaigns, they reported, seemed to push the needle on parents’ intentions to vaccinate. For parents who were least likely to vaccinate to begin with, the material actually lowered their belief that MMR causes autism. But it also made them less likely to vaccinate. Showing people images of children with measles and mumps—the dangers of not vaccinating—only made people more likely to believe vaccines had dangerous side effects.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/how-your-brain-decides-without-you
Resorting to insults weakens your argument,
Indeed it does and I'd foolishly failed to consider that, in addition to the hordes of paid shills known to 'ply' this subject, there are literally tens of millions of reasonably-intelligent and well-intended people who have no reason to doubt the current narrative and my choice of words didn't do anything for the 'efficiency or effectiveness' of my attempts to communicate.
That's all we're trying to do here, right?
As unvaccinated illegals enter, we are seeing the outcome.
Evolution just weeding folks out.
BOTH hemispheres are freezing? You fucking twat.
Australia is in the middle of the hottest temps in recorded history.
We could draw a correlation to gestational diabetes and autism, but that would be too much sciencing.
Children are not property. Parents a guardians, not owners.
And the state is neither (a guardian or an owner). Lefties seem to forget that.
You don't need to bring politics into this, your agenda of trying to prove that those leaning left are stupid falls on its face because there are plenty of examples of idiots of every political stripe.
So 12% versus 10% is enough of a difference to conclude "mostly liberals"?
HPV is not harmless. It is harmless to many people but harmful to some. Just like measles doesn't kill most people, even though it does kill a large number.
Antivaxxers are stupid in the sense that they are more believing in fringe conspiracies than in science, and that they feel good about their rejection of science. Many of them don't just stop at "it's possibly harmless" and head straight into woo-woo land of thinking that vaccines are a government plot. It's one thing to be raised in a religious culture that rejects modern medicine, that's just ignorance and culture, but it's just blatantly stupid to reject your own education and the huge preponderance of science to reject this because of some unverified post on the internet.
Sheesh, at least the flat-earthers are entertaining because they're harmless, whereas the anti-vaxxers are dangerous.
Since when is telling the truth trolling?
Funny you say that, when known anti-vax fatalities are conservatives.
Remember that Fox journalist who died because of lack of protection? I strongly doubt she's a leftist.
To those of you digging out your pitchforks and torches expressing disdain towards those who don't vaccinate their kiddos, let me ask you this:
How many of you get your Flu shot every year ?
How many of you have received the HPV vaccine ?
Pneumococcal Pneumonia Vaccine ?
Shingles ?
When were your last immunization boosters ? ( for those of you who are old enough for it to apply to you )
If you haven't done any of the above ( especially the Flu one on an annual basis ) AND are joining in with the mob complaining about people who don't vaccinate their kids, what is your excuse for not getting the aforementioned vaccines ?
Before you mod-flame this question into oblivion, and I'm fairly certain that's the way it will go because it goes against the echo-chamber hive mind, do make it a point to remember that a simple strain of Flu is responsible for killing more people than probably every other disease combined.
Some of you probably do get them. I'm guessing, however, the majority do not.
Thus my question.
You need to deal with that.
Take away that doctor's licence to practise.
...plus those citizens with legitimate medicals reasons not to vaccinate, or for whom the vaccination was less than wholly effective, etc.
The only connection between those dots is the crap between your ears. You not having an ID isn't going to carry the risk of getting everyone who does have ID's around you sick, or possibly even dead.
Do we get to chose to ignore the lame slippery slope and false equivalency fallacies? There's no connection between a safe and nearly 100% effective vaccine and Tuskegee, you incompetent boob.
The parents have their rights as parents. They can refuse to vaccinate their children. Personally I think these parents are in practical terms dumber than a spoiled turnip despite their likelihood of being well educated. That says something about our educational system and abilities to think critically. Nonetheless, this is their right.
With all rights lie responsibilities. Their children should have the right to sue their parents for mal-parenting and refer their parents to the police for possible criminal prosecution for endangering the child filing the suit. The parents must be prepared to face their responsibility for their actions.
Fair is fare, after all.
{^_^}
If individuals could do whatever they wanted, and let no "government" impose any restrictions, then everyone should be allowed to walk up to someone and stab them in the back.
Stabbing a child in the back? Obviously not - nearly 100% of us instinctively recoil from that idea. But ... enough people exercising their right to make idiot decisions causing a measles outbreak, and they will kill that child with weak immune system who cannot get vaccinated due some allergy,.
Dead is dead, whether it is from a knife in the back or from disease. I think that if you took some of those anti-vaxxers to a hospital, showed them that "here is a group of kids in poor health who cannot get vaccine, if we get a measles outbreak one of them is likely to die - let's just get it over with now, we will let your child not have the vaccine if you strangle one of these kids with your own hands" - there would not be too many takers.
This is an extension of the same logic that guns are so dangerous. It is a more impersonal weapon which can kill from a distance. In addition to being a force equalizer, it is a lot easier (I assume) to point at someone and pull the trigger, rather than having to go up and wrestle them while stabbing with a knife. Well, anti-vaxxing is just that. It is something which kills someone you don't know from an action that has no violence associated with it whatsoever.
Those anti-vaxxers should just go live on their own island, and put in place whatever "no government, no regulation, I will do whatever the frack I want" policies - then we send some drones over there and broadcast Lord of the Flies II live for a couple months, until they extinct themselves. Because humans are herd beings, and herds don't functions when its members are not willing to sacrifice for the collective good.
Actually, that would be one way to deal with anti-vaxxers, government saying "ok, if you are going to do that, here is a metric crap ton of benefits we are not going to provide - no healthcare, no school, here is a chip for your car so you will be paying for using roads, no police coming to your house if you call 911, no help from embassies if you get into trouble while abroad, you are banned from national parks, ..."
If we give the government the mandate to forcefully inject our bodies with vaccines against measles, then why not against an arbitrary flu. Having the flu causes economic damage, since you will not show up at work.
And, why not have a chip implanted that permanently measures your health, so medical attention can be sought immediately when necessary? Surely you wouldn't want your children to risk being late for cancer treatment?
Oh well, now we have a chip, why not add some more features that are useful for running society more smoothly?
It's a slippery slope and it's bodily integrity that is at stake here.
Fake News alert: the Autobahn does NOT have a higher accident rate than highways in other countries with speed limits.
I would suggest that we send them the bill for all the measles, flu, or whatever. Of course, we should include a compensations for all consequences that happen due to their efforts.
For those of us who actually have concerns about our children's health, that rally sounds like a target-rich environment.
Somebody should thin those herds.
You're 100% correct. Fortunately none of our drugs contain Mercury, not in chemical form not in planet form.
Read a book.
how can an "unprotected" kid hurt "protected" kids, if the protected ones are vaccinated?
Problem sorted.
"have every right to make a bad decision in the health of their child, but that does not give them the right to send an unprotected kid to public school. So if they want to homeschool their kid and keep them out of other environments, that's their decision."
I'd go beyond this to say that if you are home-schooling your non-vaccinated children you should not be taking them ANYWHERE that is public access. No movie theaters, no malls, no grocery stores, nowhere there is and should be a reasonable expectation of behavior in the societal good.
Anti-vax = anti-science, anti-intellectual.
20% dominance??
I hate to see little children die miserably. But, maybe lessening of vaccination rates will finally curb population density. It's either that, or a big war. Neither is pretty, but the benefits to population shrinkage are incredible.
A SSN isn't an ID.
No, but if you drink alcohol and engage in public disorderly conduct, or if you drive while intoxicated, you will be "forced" into jail. Rights and responsibilities. Drink all you want but act responsibly. Drive all you want but do it responsibly. And have all the kids you want but raise them responsibly, which includes vaccines.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
i guess you dont know now to read goverment reports
Exactly. In other words, it's the Social Contract.
Some believe they are born with freedom, which means freedom to do whatever they goddamn well please and everyone else be damned. There are places for them, but they're called communes.
I have recently seen an anti-vaxxer post explaining, that vaccines are rich people's plot to build a giant database of potential organ donors. When a rich person gets sick, a compatible vaccinated person is snatched from the streets by a black van never to be seen again.
I think there should be an annual competition for sci-fi writers: come up with a theory too stupid even for anti-vaxxers...
http://www.whale.to/v/hadwen1.html
All well documented. LOL at the idiots here saying that un'vaccinated' children are somehow a risk to THEIR children! If your children are 'vaccinated', then surely they are 'immune' to those diseases?
But wait - your poor little child can't be 'vaccinated' because they are 'allergic' to something the 'vaccines'. So isn't YOUR child just as 'dangerous' as a child who isn't 'vaccinated' because they know it's a fraud?
You have two sorts of children who aren't 'vaccinated':
1) Allergic to 'vaccines' (and apparently these are the potential 'victims')
2) Choose not to have filth and poison ('vaccines') injected into them.
Some how, only group 2 is a 'threat' to members of group 1 - when obviously ALL of group 1 are a threat to group 1!
How can you not see that? There is no such thing as 'vaccination' because Jenner was a fraud, science and medical research as we know it today simply didn't exist in Jenner's time, and the fraudsters who called themselves 'doctors' in those days leapt at the chance to inject people with pus and filth and get paid a fortune for it. And yet you still believe that 'vaccines' actually work and are vital to modern health.
Tell me, how does a 'vaccine' actually work? We are told that: "Vaccines work by making us produce antibodies to fight disease without actually infecting us with the disease."
"If the vaccinated person then comes into contact with the disease itself, their immune system will recognise it and immediately produce the antibodies they need to fight it."
Source: NHS website: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/how-vaccines-work/
Read that again. Read the last sentence again. So somehow, when we have a 'vaccine' our body produces antibodies to fight the disease. No mention of whether this is 'immediate' or not. So if we are capable of producing antibodies to a 'vaccine', why wouldn't we be capable of producing antibodies to the actual disease? How does the immune system "recognise" the disease, as stated in the second paragraph? Is there ANY evidence that you cannot product antibodies to a disease without having had a 'vaccine' first, and why on Earth would that be the case, when the 'vaccine' isn't even the real disease?
To date, NOBODY has rebutted anything in Dr Hadwen's speeches - why is that?
http://www.whale.to/v/hadwen1.html
There is still no 'flu 'vaccine' that actually works. How convenient! The 'flu magically 'mutates' every year (sure, we believe you) and therefore the poor 'vaccine' manufacturers just can't seem to prevent it from infecting millions of people every year - but they still get paid for their pointless poison.
Rarely do you get to see it working across generations
The stars are aligning!
To paraphrase:
1) Put a good share of an unvaccinated population into a small area together
2) ?????
3) Hilarity Ensues
we could have one person with measles walk through that crowd..
Poor A/C, are your descendants vaccinated?
It is your right, and mine, to go up to any non-vaccinated child and expose them to measles or polio or pertussis.
"That's mean!" you say.
So why does an anti-vaxxer have the right to do the same to my child? It is completely reciprocal. If they have the right to not vaccinate in our population, then any one of us has the right to infect them whenever we want.
It is clear that there is no "right" for anyone to be sheltered from exposure from others. To believe that you have such a right causes the danger that anti-vaxxers pose to the general population. In time, deaths of anti-vaxxer small children will act as an evolutionary force to remove such ideas from the population.
Every American should have the constitutional right to keep biological weapons. If we look at the death toll, guns have killed way more people in the last decade, so that can't be an argument against it. And once we have established the right to keep biological weapons, our unvaccinated children are covered. Problem solved. All we need is a good lawsuit.
oh, a "taxes is theft" dolt.... Someone who doesn't want first responders, public schools, roads, bridges, highways, jails, parks or anything for the public good. Lets just to back to the lawless old west days.