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Hundreds Rally For Their Right To Not Vaccinate Their Children (msn.com)
CBS News reports that as Washington state confronts a measles outbreak which has sickened at least 56 people, "hundreds rallied to preserve their right not to vaccinate their children."
They packed a public hearing for a new bill making it harder for families to opt out of vaccination requirements, reports The Washington Post: An estimated 700 people, most of them opposed to stricter requirements, lined up before dawn in the cold, toting strollers and hand-lettered signs, to sit in the hearing.... The Pacific Northwest is home to some of the nation's most vocal and organized anti-vaccination activists. That movement has helped drive down child immunizations in Washington, as well as in neighboring Oregon and Idaho, to some of the lowest rates in the country, with as many as 10.5 percent of kindergartners statewide in Idaho unvaccinated for measles. That is almost double the median rate nationally....
One activist who spoke Friday, Mary Holland, who teaches at New York University law school and said her son has a vaccine-related injury, warned lawmakers that if the bill passes, many vaccine opponents will "move out of the state, or go underground, but they will not comply."
The sponsor of a similar bill in Oregon says that anti-vaxxers "have every right to make a bad decision in the health of their child, but that does not give them the right to send an unprotected kid to public school. So if they want to homeschool their kid and keep them out of other environments, that's their decision."
But there are still 17 U.S. states that allow "personal or philosophic exemptions to vaccination requirements," reports the Post, "meaning virtually anyone can opt out." (Though some states are now considering changes.) "The enablers are state legislators in those states, that have allowed themselves to be played," complains Dr. Peter Hotez, a co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston.
The World Health Organization estimates that measles vaccines have saved over 21 million lives since 2000. But last year in the European region's population of nearly 900 million people, at least 82,600 people contracted measles, reports Reuters. "Of those, 72 cases were fatal."
They packed a public hearing for a new bill making it harder for families to opt out of vaccination requirements, reports The Washington Post: An estimated 700 people, most of them opposed to stricter requirements, lined up before dawn in the cold, toting strollers and hand-lettered signs, to sit in the hearing.... The Pacific Northwest is home to some of the nation's most vocal and organized anti-vaccination activists. That movement has helped drive down child immunizations in Washington, as well as in neighboring Oregon and Idaho, to some of the lowest rates in the country, with as many as 10.5 percent of kindergartners statewide in Idaho unvaccinated for measles. That is almost double the median rate nationally....
One activist who spoke Friday, Mary Holland, who teaches at New York University law school and said her son has a vaccine-related injury, warned lawmakers that if the bill passes, many vaccine opponents will "move out of the state, or go underground, but they will not comply."
The sponsor of a similar bill in Oregon says that anti-vaxxers "have every right to make a bad decision in the health of their child, but that does not give them the right to send an unprotected kid to public school. So if they want to homeschool their kid and keep them out of other environments, that's their decision."
But there are still 17 U.S. states that allow "personal or philosophic exemptions to vaccination requirements," reports the Post, "meaning virtually anyone can opt out." (Though some states are now considering changes.) "The enablers are state legislators in those states, that have allowed themselves to be played," complains Dr. Peter Hotez, a co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston.
The World Health Organization estimates that measles vaccines have saved over 21 million lives since 2000. But last year in the European region's population of nearly 900 million people, at least 82,600 people contracted measles, reports Reuters. "Of those, 72 cases were fatal."
If they go live on a deserted island and never come back, I'm OK with it.
If not, they are a danger to society and should not be allowed to mingle with normal people.
I want a religious exemption from speed limits.
Totally with you, I mean which sane person would want their enemies to live a longer healthier life?
Call CPS, have them come get the kids. It's a danger to themselves and to the public safety. Enough with these loony tunes who think it's their right to endanger their offspring and the general population.
... then they should pay for the public health costs that arise because of their decision. It is a welfare of the community issue. Laws are often made to protect the community from the bad decisions of individuals.
... of those who contract measles, and their insurance fees should reflect that added risk.
/
Only by making the costs or either decision transparent, you can address both the unfounded and the founded fears of vaccinations risks versus non-vaccinations risks.
While the benefit of the measles vaccination seems obvious to most, actual scandals surrounding other vaccinations have cast shadows of doubt on just every vaccination, especially for those who do not differentiate.
One tragic contemporary example:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
You are entitled to your opinions. But you are not entitled to your own facts. Herd immunity is a real thing with real evidence behind it. If you don’t like it, tough.
Anti-vaxxers should be tied down and vaccinated like every other farm animal that doesn’t know what’s best for it.
And what price are you going to put on the price of a death caused by them not vaccinating their child(ren)?
We need more of these rallies. Include a couple of people in them that have the measles or something else that they chose not to vaccinate against.
When a few of them get sick and see how their kids are suffering, and that it was spread by their rally, maybe they'll wise up and get their kids vaccinated.
"have every right to make a bad decision in the health of their child"
No they fucking don't. Whenever someone causes harm to their children, either by a deliberate act or neglect, we call it child abuse. Why would this be any different ?
I'm appaled by the number of people who still see their children as we did in barbaric times; as their personal property, to do with them as they please, with the right of life and death over them.
We are not fucking barbarians anymore. This is the 21st century. We live in a civilized society now, or at least we should be. And in civilized societies, human beings don't own other human beings. Your children are not your children, no matter what your fucking animal instincts tell you. Your children, are citizens, just like you are, with the whole gammut of basic human rights every evolved and civilized culture agrees on. They are under your care until they reach the legal age of independance. And until then, your are required, by law, and by basic human decency to provide them with the best possible care. And so is society as a whole. That's why every civilized nation has mandatory education. And also why every such nation has, or should have nationalized health care for all children.
Grow the fuck up, people. Barbarism, tribalism, social Darwinism are over. Join the civilized world.
By coming together in one place like this, all it takes is one person with measles to decimate them. I would expect them to be concerned about this, even if they do not wish to be vaccinated. I wonder if the adults are vaccinated? Like, were they vaccinated as children, yet they don't want their children vaccinated?
And I really meant idiots... Hope they won't cry because of a measles epidemic, like the recent in NY State
This has been subject to lots of prior considerations - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Incubating now.
This perpetual motion machine Lisa made is a joke, it just keeps getting faster and faster. - Homer
No one probably mentions it due to countries like Mexico, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador all having a higher vaccination rate than the US.
You don't want to "mandate", but at the same time you don't want to create a disease problem (especially one that could escalate).
I don't think the "homeschool" safety option is necessarily "safe".
We're probably going to have to mandate vaccinations and live with the small amount of "collateral damage" (autonomous vehicles will rack up more collateral damage that this).
So we have somewhere to put these idgits.
Vaccinations are part of your public responsibility, like following traffic laws. If you don't want to obey traffic laws, that's easy: don't have a vehicle. If you don't want to vaccinate your kids, that's fine, don't have kids.
I'm not hugely worried about compliance. An idiot can speed through town a time or three, but eventually they'll get caught. Children's immunizations should be signed off by a pediatrician, and verified at the beginning of every school year, when buying that summer pass to the swimming pool, and other occasions.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
They're all so anti-vaccine and pro-disease, I'm sure they would have been just fine with a couple of the active measles patients coming to the hearing.
That'd help things along.
Debunked, debunked and debunked. There are quite a few studies that show there's no link between mercury compounds in vaccines and autism. And believe it or not scientists and health care professionals are not "out to get you" with some giant conspiracy to give your kid autism.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Working through your post it seems you are suggesting that more funding would solve this issue. I don't think throwing more money at schools would fix anything, apart from them building more and bigger gyms, having nicer vacations and buying more iPads (nominally for the kids but actually for the staff). Mismanagement of funding is also a thing.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The smartest man in the world believes vaccines are a danger.
http://fortune.com/2017/02/16/...
You are welcome on my lawn.
Mortality improved for lots of reasons, "Total Food" likely not being any one of them. Things like ventilators, dialysis, antibiotics, and recognition of quarantine practices all improved mortality in the early 1900s. But just because you can save a person by spending huge amounts of money and ventilating them in the ICU doesn't mean that's the best way to manage an illness. Pretty sure those kids would prefer to have never gotten sick in the first place.
I'm all for vaccinating children, but forcing it on parents is wrong.
Public safety has to be forced on people for their own good. Things like speed limits and lane markings actually work to cut down traffic accidents. Just letting people drive however the hell they want is dangerous. Things like how to wire your house and building codes actually work to reduce avoidable fires, building collapses, health problems, etc. Just letting people build a house however the hell they want is dangerous. Likewise vaccines. No, it's NOT up to the parents. It's public health policy. You don't like it - tough. It's not all "my rights". It's rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
If ever there was a legitimate time for Trump to order a drone strike on a location it was then and there.
Following your own logic - if every American born citizen is vaccinated then it doesn't matter if illegals come with disease as it would strictly affect illegals...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
No point in trying to educate people who have been told by authorities they trust that education is dangerous.
The great majority of vaccines are extremely valuable. Unfortunately the same can't be said in general for everything provided by the medical industry, and uninformed / uneducated people may not understand the fundamental difference between say vaccines and over-prescribed pain killers.
Its easy to think that everyone should be informed, but despite our best efforts one out of ten of the population is in the bottom 10% in terms of understanding things. That is still a lot of people and we need to help them know how to decide.
I ran into a social media post recently where a mother was saying that she didn't trust doctors do inject "chemicals" into her children, and showed a (true) story about a child who died of a flu vaccine.
The people opposing vaccination are not evil, they just have not be taught statistics and rational thought. They have no idea how vaccines work. They don't know what sources of information to trust.
Children are not property. Parents a guardians, not owners.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Dear Americans,
not everything can be reduced to a sum of money.
What cost exactly do you plan to tell parents you assigned to the death of their child?
And how will some material trinkets bring back that specific life?
No, the right choice is that they don't get to mingle with us at all, if they made decisions that make them a danger to us.
Originally, that's what prisons were created for. But to be fair to everyone, I'd tell them they can make their own country, with Jesus and measles. And we’ll put an embargo on their asses. If their country succeeds more than ours, we bow and tip our hats to them for having been stupid. But if they start dying, they'll better be prepared to come begging on their knees and promise to play along from now on.
You really need to look at this as a game theory decision. They are not as crazy as they sound (well, some of them are). Even if they don't know it, they are making the following calculation.
The probability of a negative vaccine reaction is finite, somewhere between 1/50,000 to 1/1,000,000 depending on the vaccine, maybe higher when you throw in human error. The odds of bad outcome from not being vaccinated = the probability of contracting the disease multiplied by the probability of a severe negative reaction. So if I figure 90%+ of the general population is vaccinated, the odds of my kid actually contracting the disease AND having a negative reaction is probably much smaller than the odds of a negative reaction from the vaccine. The "cost" of being vaccinated is higher than the "cost" of not being vaccinated.
This creates a strong incentive to "cheat" and not get vaccinated. Obviously this only works if the number of non-vax remains small, and endangers those who can't get the vaccine for some reason. You can call them names all you want, but they are ultimately making a rational (if selfish) decision. It's important to understand this if hoping to tackle the problem. Hoping and screaming at people to become altruistic is not helpful. A more reasonable approach is to raise the cost of not being vaccinated. This could be done literally with a fine, or by barring them from public school, raising health care premiums etc.
As with any actual medical analysis, the details are important, often difficult to understand for people who aren't medical professionals, and sadly often give rise to irrational fears among the population. If you look at the WHO analysis there is a group of people who are at risk for a slightly negative outcome over those in that same subset of people who went unvaccinated. This can be in principle reduced to a positive for society and individuals with a screening test, even if there is a slight false negative result. If you have sources showing this company acted in bad faith, or suppressed research results for profit, I would be interested to hear it. From everything I've seen the pushback is mostly emotional and unfounded.
It stands to reason that a parent, rightfully, has a right to determine the environment in which their child is raised, but in a civilized society, that right should exist only to the extent that the there is some empirical evidence that how they are raising the child is not objectively harmful to the child nor objectively potentially harmful to that society.
There are two general classifications for objecting to vaccinations: one is for medical reasons, and the other is on philosophical grounds. Vaccinating children who for established medical reasons should not be vaccinated would clearly cause objectively measurable harm to those children, so it fails on that metric. Fortunately, the percentage of people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons has a clear upper bound, and as a result the increased risk it poses to society is negligible on account of herd immunity, which actually helps to protect the unvaccinated children. Thus, not vaccinating children that cannot be safely vaccinated on account of medical reasons appears to be okay.
However, on the subject of philosophical grounds, there is no upper limit on the number of people who could potentially adopt such a view, and so the principle of herd immunity can start to break down. Those who willfully choose to be unvaccinated start to pose a significant measurable threat to the welfare and safety of the previously mentioned class of people who have no real choice in the matter, and because vaccinations are not foolproof, they even pose an modestly increased threat to those who are vaccinated as well (where the latter group would have otherwise been protected by the principle of herd immunity, just as those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons would be, because they are such a small percentage of the population).
And it is to that extent that I would disagree with your assessment that vaccinations should not be forced on children in society who cannot show that there are clear and objectively verifiable medical reasons that the child should not be. The threat to the child and to others around them is simply too great. The only option for parents who wish to do this, in my view, is to retreat from society entirely, and raise their children in an isolated community where they cannot pose a risk to the remainder of society.
Death by illness is always regrettable, but death by illness for which vaccinations exist is doubly so simply because it is entirely preventable with the technology that we have achieved today. It is the height of selfishness and inconsideration for anyone's welfare but one's own to refuse to vaccinate one's child simply because of some philosophy about them they have adopted when that belief has not been sufficiently peer reviewed to become accepted as scientific and objective fact.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The reactions to this news piece, and to some extent even the way it is written perfectly demonstrate the dysfunctional dynamic gripping America right now. Everything is an OUTRAGE, and the solution that is immediately proposed is a PUNISHMENT. It is an OUTRAGE that these parents should not want to vaccinate their children. The parents should be PUNISHED by being exiled to a desert island or by having their children removed by CPS.
I would like to challenge you all to find some empathy in your heart and focus on ways to improve voluntary compliance with all the wonderful things you think everyone else should do. I mean, I am sure you are right, because you are smart and you have all the answers. But please focus on gently and kindly educating others instead of sending police of some sort around to force them to do whatever you think is in their best interest.
By including this sig, the copyright holders of this work or collection unreservedly place it in the public domain.
I guess you missed the previous slashdot story.
When things get complex, multiply by the complex conjugate.
But we know in general that rich people donâ(TM)t take care of poor people out of the goodness in their heart. So we form groups, we form governments. The government is not just some asshat. It is a system of people. It takes real work and leadership to change it for the better.
They just pray over their sick kids until they die. It costs very little.
And they have twelve more kids, so it's not that big a deal anyway.
Have gnu, will travel.
I didn’t read the article, but I’m pretty sure Slashdot cut the headline off early. I’m not sure how it was supposed to end, but I have a few guesses:
Hundreds Rally For Their Right To Not Vaccinate Their Children...
...measles outbreak ensues
...thousands expected but had to stay home with sick children
...in what turns out to be the largest CPS sting in history
...casket futures soar
...millions mourn the demise of reason
...immigrants ask if they can fill the upcoming vacancies
...then find that their doctors refuse to see them
...Doomsday Clock moved closer to midnight
...last surviving Iron Lung users gather to protest rally
I was going to add:
...pastor tells them to “stop being stupid”
But that one actually happened after a measles outbreak in Texas a few years back. The pastor who pushed an anti-vaccine agenda thankfully had the sense to tell everyone to go get vaccinated once the people in their community were getting sick, since the immediate harm was of significantly and obviously greater concern than the fictional harm they were all worried about.
Maybe we should mandate all of these things too? Because there are hundreds of communicable diseases that all those protect people against -- not just measles.
https://www.drfuhrman.com/shop...
"In Disease-Proof Your Child, Dr. Fuhrman details how a Nutritarian [vegetable-emphasizing etc.] diet increases a child's resistance to common childhood illnesses like asthma, ear infections, and allergies. He explains how eating a high-nutrient diet during childhood protects against developing chronic illness including cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and autoimmune disorders."
https://www.everydayfamily.com...
"What all of this means, unfortunately, is that while breastfeeding generally provides the most protection against measles for babies when they are newborns and up to six months, those antibodies wane as they baby gets older. Currently, the CDC doesn't recommend that infants get the MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella) vaccine until they are 12 months old, so babies who are my daughter's age â" 6 months â" are lacking in that protection."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...
"It is now clear that vitamin D has important roles in addition to its classic effects on calcium and bone homeostasis. As the vitamin D receptor is expressed on immune cells (B cells, T cells and antigen presenting cells) and these immunologic cells are all are capable of synthesizing the active vitamin D metabolite, vitamin D has the capability of acting in an autocrine manner in a local immunologic milieu. Vitamin D can modulate the innate and adaptive immune responses. Deficiency in vitamin D is associated with increased autoimmunity as well as an increased susceptibility to infection. As immune cells in autoimmune diseases are responsive to the ameliorative effects of vitamin D, the beneficial effects of supplementing vitamin D deficient individuals with autoimmune disease may extend beyond the effects on bone and calcium homeostasis."
https://www.health.harvard.edu... ..."
"Just like a healthy diet, exercise can contribute to general good health and therefore to a healthy immune system. It may contribute even more directly by promoting good circulation, which allows the cells and substances of the immune system to move through the body freely and do their job efficiently.
Adequate sleep is also important for immune function:
https://valleysleepcenter.com/...
"One reason our immune system function is so closely tied to our sleep is that certain disease-fighting substances are released or created while we sleep. Our bodies need these hormones, proteins, and chemicals in order to fight off disease and infection. Sleep deprivation, therefore, decreases the availability of these substances leaving us more susceptible to each new virus and bacteria we encounter. This can also cause us to being sick for a longer period of time as our bodies lack the resources to properly fight whatever it is that is making us sick."
If the logic of forced vaccination holds up, shouldn't we also be putting people in jail for giving children junk food -- as well as for producing or selling junk food consumed by children?
Or maybe we should jail people who are not getting enough sleep (e.g. people who stay up late reading Slashdot) and so are posing a health risk to everyone?
Or is that too slippery a slope for people here to consider?
Humor also boost the immune system. So maybe people who don't laugh enough should also be sent to jail as a health risk? :-)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.ni
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Anti-vaxx disease is most prevalent amongst well-educated, highly-paid Whites. This is not an education problem that money can fix.
This comment and clearly half of them in this thread are some sort of crazy propaganda campaign. The density of antivax proponents is too sharp a contrast from the norm of this site
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
The federal funding to schools should be cut to zero. Also the federal control over schools. That should be entirely a state or local matter.
Part of the problem with schools is, indeed, underfunding, but centralized collection of funds and redistribution of them didn't do anything to improve matters. At all. And it allowed the feds to stick ridiculous testing requirements on top of the load. A common test once a year is reasonable. Twice a year is justifiable. Anything more frequent is onerously intrusive interference. But make the test through, not just a multiple choice test that can be passed without understanding the material. Yes, it's harder to evaluate the answers. Tough. That's the real world.
Also the schools I've encountered are top heavy with administration which is ineffective because of being hamstrung by rules imposed by on high.
Also, there's no reason a first grade teacher should be required to know calculus, or even algebra. They should be comfortable around simple integers and like to read and love children. Basic medical training is also advisable. Etc. etc.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
1) Most the stuff you and your children can not catch because you were vaccinated so being exposed isn't a problem. That is why you got vaccinated in the 1st place.
2) If their kids suffer, it's their own fault. We don't have civilized healthcare but if we did, then it would cost the tax payers something and an argument could be had on that front.
3) We are overpopulated.
4) Bad paranoid parents of low IQ (in your opinion) then shouldn't be stopped from lowering their own impact on the gene pool. We have to stop helping Darwin Award contenders from having as many offspring as they can.
5) The actually quite corrupt medical industry does actually create problems and cover them up. Big Tobacco was an extreme example and it took decades and they are still bigger corps now than ever. The medical industry is less evil and more influential, to not imagine them getting away with murder for profit is just naive.
6) Statistics. Americans do not grasp math, especially statistics. Even so, people don't think rationally most the time and when you say their kid has a 10% chance of being fucked up unless they get a shot with a 1% chance of also being fucked up... if they hear about that 1% they don't want to take the risk. Don't just apply this topic, Americans freak over everything that isn't even HALF as deadly as driving a car.
7) P.R. firms helped create the problem. Hired to do a brilliant divide and conquer on where they can get you science and math people attacking their critics for them. Instead of all people uniting against a single bad drug, we've got a Luddite war and nobody is even talking about specifics which would harm the PR firm's employer.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Quarantine those nasty buggers and give them their shots, while we have them together.
IIUC there is a problem with Dengue fever, in that there are multiple strains, a vaccine against one not only doesn't protect against a different one, it can make that strain considerably more deadly. And the immune system won't allow you to vaccinate against all of them.
OTOH, I'm not real certain of the name of the particular illness. And it was my understanding that it occurred in South America, not in the Philippines. Still, the effect is real, and at the time I read the article how to deal with it wasn't clear.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
If you are talking about tetanus, then you've got a point. Measles isn't usually that deadly.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It is the same thing.
Umnh...you think you have infinitely fast reaction time? That you can miraculously kill momentum without skid marks? Or what is the basis for your belief about highway speed limits?
P.S.: The autobahn has (had?) more serious accidents than other roads per mile driven. They were talking about imposing speed limits on it (in the interest of uniformity in traffic regulations across Europe). I don't know what decision they made/are making.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Where do you live that you aren't forced to have an ID? I live in the US. When I turned 16 I got a social security number, and when I turned 18 I was registered for the draft. (I wasn't drafted, but I was registered.) Earlier as a boy scout my fingerprints were sent to be registered with the FBI. These days infants are given social security numbers at birth keyed to (I think) their foot-prints, but possibly to their DNA. If not, that's coming soon.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
One problem with this is a number of doctors who were falsely certifying that children shouldn't be vaccinated for medical reasons. You need to deal with that.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Evidence? If not, I'll consider you a troll.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Should the sheep fully trust the shepherd? Has the US government ever used citizens as guinea pigs "for the greater good"? Have pharmaceutical companies ever gotten sued for selling a product that they *KNEW from their own testing* was injurious? Is there a single pharmaceutical that hasn't been sued in the last few years for corruption / evading controls / hiding side effects? Doctors and insurance companies and politicians and pharmaceuticals are all made of upstanding, honest people who never cut corners, take bribes, inject their own ego or bias, and always act for the good of the individual, the greater good, and never to line their own pockets. Do you trust them fully? Partially? Where should you draw the line?
The vaccine manufactures have legislative immunity - they can not be sued. They do not have any economic incentive to make products safer. If they straight-up packaged cyanide and sold it as a vaccine they couldn't be sued without changing the laws first. Is this a trustworthy position? How many other products do you use where the supplier/manufacturer has complete legislative immunity? Would you be comfortable buying a car if you knew that you could not sue the manufacturer even if they cut corners which caused you to crash?
The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) program has paid billions of dollars in compensation to people injured by vaccines in the last three decades to people injured by vaccines. Even the most wildly high estimates say that no more than 5% of adverse reactions are reported.
The Department of Health and Human Services was mandated to report in 1986 to Congress every two years about vaccine safety. They have yet to submit a single report. HHS admitted in court to failing to perform their job, as well as breaking federal law. Should you trust the government to ensure vaccine safety? Is the government that keeps failing to do their own paperwork a good watchdog?
At some point, combining repeatedly untrustworthy companies and repeatedly untrustworthy government and mandating that you not simply buy a product, but use it, not just use it, but inject it - for the greater good - should require a lot more research, a lot more transparency, and a lot more trust - and trust that has been repeatedly violated.
I don't know about the distribution across the political spectrum, but one thing is for sure, they are all stupid people.
You have to have a license to have a dog. Why not a license to have a kid? The application should have some questions like.
There is ___ magical sky fairy?
The magical sky fairy will ___ save my kids?
Science ___ the magical sky fairy.
Some think like that?
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Don't wanna vaccinate? Then please move into the woods and never expose anyone to your unvaccinated kids. Also, no doctors for you. You forfeit the right to all doctor and hospital care. You can stitch your own wounds and set your own bones, since you obviously know better than the professionals.
They should just make a law about this and be done with it. No one should have the right to endanger their fellow citizens based on falsehoods, unfounded paranoid and/or plain stupidity.
Society needs to shun these people like the lepers they aspire to be.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. Civilization and society have no benefit to anyone and we should all be able to just do whatever we want whenever we want to do it. I mean, what's the point of having laws? I don't want some people I don't know telling me what I can and can't do. Screw that. Why should those people have authority over me just because I happen to live in the same country or state, or city as them? I didn't ask them to build all those roads and utility systems that have been around since before I was born. Why should I pay taxes to maintain, repair, or expand them? Let it all fall apart.
Why do people like you always post as anonymous cowards?
Seriously? WTF? As much as I hate to say it, an outbreak of Measles isn't going to convince anti-vaxers to vaccinate their kids. Measles comes and then goes. It's long term health effects aren't seen for years or decades. What will knock some sense in these idiots is if we have a Polio outbreak and only their unvaccinated kids end up in wheelchairs, needing braces, or trapped in an iron lung.
Except immigrants have higher vaccination rates than the USA: https://www.who.int/immunizati... good job, your "dirty immigrant" argument falls flat on its ass
Except immigrants have higher vaccination rates than the USA: https://www.who.int/immunizati... vs https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fasta...
many vaccine opponents will "... go underground..."
Do they mean something like 6 feet under?
Quick! Now is our chance to take them all out at once!
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
Most of the anti vaccination folks I have had the surprised pleasure to encounter are very conservative and very much âoesalt of the earth peopleâ. Apologies to the movie Blazing Saddles
It's damn nasty though in the complications:
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/ab...
Anti-vax rally sounds like a great place to pick up measles.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
That's an ethics violation, and should have them struck off.
There are quite a few studies that show there's no link between mercury compounds in vaccines and autism.
And only a drooling pro-establishment mouthbreather would expect those studies to show anything else.
From a health insurance perspective, IMO, the cost should be the cost of the failed attempt to keep the kid alive, because that's what the health insurance company will end up paying. Basically, parents would have two choices:
So basically, an extra $38 per year should roughly cover parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids. Of course, the parents of the kid who died, assuming they know that an anti-vaxxer kid was involved in spreading it, could easily sue the parents of that kid for negligent homicide. And there's no limit to that liability. Ostensibly, the health insurance companies could require the parents to carry extra liability insurance for fear of getting caught in the middle of such a fight, in which case they might consider the risk to be 3/100,000 times a million dollars over five years, or an extra $6 per year times 30 kids, or $180 a year.
So my guess is that it would all end up being a couple of $200 to $250 dollars more per kid per year (let's call that 5%). Or if the parents are willing to let their own kid die without hospitalization in the event that he or she gets sick, it would be slightly less.
However, there's also a secondary risk that has to be factored in. The reason those rates are so low is because vaccination rates are so high. Back when vaccination rates were zero, Measles hospitalized about 1/1000 children in the U.S. every year, by my math (48,000 hospitalizations out of about 47 million people under 18). So that raises it to $14 per year per kid plus that $180 legal liability, times seven vaccines, or just shy of $1400 per year.
Still not nearly as high as I would have expected. But yeah, not vaccinating your kids is seriously expensive to society. If the anti-vaxxers had to pay a 25% premium on their health insurance per kid, they might think twice about how seriously they value their right to opt out. And this was using measles as a metric. Some diseases like mumps and rubella would likely cost less, but polio is enough more expensive to make up for those and then some.
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I'm afraid Pew disagrees with you. Thier research says that 12% of liberals believe vaccines are unsafe, but only 10% of conservatives do.
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions, but they are not allowed to have their own facts.
Staff would also get a more secure pension. That's one of the biggest expenses. Pensions don't teach children.
If you had said "It can be that nasty", I'd agree with you. But you said "is", and that's not usually true.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
1) require that all students, in all schools be vaccinated.
2) require that all large districts (say more than 40K students) offer up 1 school where personal choice un-vaccinated kids can attend school. For those who have a TRUE medical excuse, they will be allowed to attend regular schools.
3) All students that are personal choice to not vaccinate, shall home school, if not attending one of the aforementioned schools.
4) any parent that is caught cheating on this will pay for any and all medical treatments of other kids, if an infection is found in said school. If a child dies and and any personal choice unvaccinated child was attending, then parents will be charged with first degree murder.
5) all universities/post elementary schools will require full vaccination.
Simple as that. The parents need to be held responsible for this. If they are the cause of others dying, then they need to be charged with murder.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The number of doctors that do this is also quite small and unlikely to impact the herd immunity to any great degree, since strong penalties can exist for doctors that would knowingly falsify such information, and can therefore be handled on a case-by-case basis.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I wonder if the parents who want the right to avoid vaccinations also want the right to kill their children, kill other children, or to shoot a gun in a public place. In a sense that is what they are doing.
BTW, there are people whose immune systems are compromised and cannot get vaccines for medical reasons. They depend on herd immunity.
Hopefully, this craziness will end soon, and the government should and will require vaccines, except when their is a medical reason not to.
For the record: I don't like having to advocate for an extreme solution like this, but these people are a danger to public health and they must be interdicted. I'm getting damned sick and tired of people being so wilfully ignorant and everyone else paying the price. In 2019 there is NO REASON for anyone to get measles, whooping cough, polio, or anything else there are childhood vaccinations against, these vaccinations have been used safely for DECADES and DECADES. If some adults are so stupid as to insist their kids don't get them, then someone has to step in. Sorry, but I'm not sorry at all, this is just the way it has to be.
That's fine... because that's exactly what we are trying to do. The fact that this "own society" happens to be the majority is irrelevant, and the problem is raised when antivaxxers want to also be part of that society.
Because, as I said, with no upper bound on the number of people that could voluntarily choose to not vaccinate, it poses a *proven* increased risk of death to people around them who didn't make such a voluntary choice... a risk that wouldn't exist in the first place if the only people who didn't vaccinate were those that did so for medical reasons.
I support your right to choose not to vaccinate, but you better damn well believe that I'm going to expect that you not be welcome in a society where the only grounds for refusal is objectively proven medical data.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Resorting to insults weakens your argument, it does not strengthen it. What exactly would be the benefit to "giving" a certain percentage of kids autism?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Driving is a right you earn by acquiring a license. However that right comes with responsibilities - the responsibility to obey traffic laws, and the responsibility to maintain your vehicle in good order.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Wow. Ai is sure coming close to generating sentences that have actual meaning.
Family emphasis on scholastics outweighs all other factors in predicting scholastic success, including dollars per pupil and class size and days in school per year.
Arguing about this stuff misses the point. Better to look at media crapping on helicopter parents and tiger moms.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
If the logic of forced vaccination holds up, shouldn't we also be putting people in jail for giving children junk food -- as well as for producing or selling junk food consumed by children?
Maybe. But what we should definitely do is prohibit advertising to children, as they do in some nations, because studies have shown that young children cannot differentiate between commercials and programming. (There are several jokes there, yes.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
That's completely false. Throughout that period, the case fatality rate was one per 1,000 reported cases, or about one per 10,000 total cases, which is two orders of magnitude higher than your claim.
Also, measles resulted in hospitalization for about one out of every 1,000 minors per year. That's not one out of every 1,000 cases. That's one out of every thousand people under 18. IIRC, about one in ten of those had encephalitis as a result, and a quarter of those likely suffered permanent brain damage. Imagine one person getting brain damage per 40,000 kids, and you'll begin to understand just how wrong you are about the severity of measles.
So you're saying that it's okay for kids to die or suffer brain damage, just as long as they're poor people's kids? There's medication for that sort of thinking, you know.
Besides, you're also factually wrong. Even though the anti-vaxxers tend to be wealthy, and their kids have better nutrition than average, the current U.S. case fatality rate in the U.S. is even higher than it was in the 1960s, at 3 per thousand. Why? Because the other people who aren't vaccinated besudes the anti-vaxxers' kids are all the people who, for health reasons, legitimately cannot tolerate an attenuated virus. So no, skipping the measles vaccine isn't killing people who don't take their vitamins. Rather, it is killing people who through no fault of their own are immunocompromised.
So although it is pedantically true that case fatality rates much higher (up to one in four) occur in underdeveloped nations, this is also true for pretty much any illness. And measles is still a really bad illness even in developed countries, even today.
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Assume you want to be rich. Where do you profit from selling a lie?
I can see it in politics, we and the US both have had "monster raving looney parties". People donated money to them, and their leaders profited. Where's the profit in selling flat earths, anti-vaxes (I liked DEC's VAXes) and the like?
davecb@spamcop.net
You don't need to bring politics into this, your agenda of trying to prove that those leaning left are stupid falls on its face because there are plenty of examples of idiots of every political stripe.
So 12% versus 10% is enough of a difference to conclude "mostly liberals"?
HPV is not harmless. It is harmless to many people but harmful to some. Just like measles doesn't kill most people, even though it does kill a large number.
Antivaxxers are stupid in the sense that they are more believing in fringe conspiracies than in science, and that they feel good about their rejection of science. Many of them don't just stop at "it's possibly harmless" and head straight into woo-woo land of thinking that vaccines are a government plot. It's one thing to be raised in a religious culture that rejects modern medicine, that's just ignorance and culture, but it's just blatantly stupid to reject your own education and the huge preponderance of science to reject this because of some unverified post on the internet.
Sheesh, at least the flat-earthers are entertaining because they're harmless, whereas the anti-vaxxers are dangerous.
To those of you digging out your pitchforks and torches expressing disdain towards those who don't vaccinate their kiddos, let me ask you this:
How many of you get your Flu shot every year ?
How many of you have received the HPV vaccine ?
Pneumococcal Pneumonia Vaccine ?
Shingles ?
When were your last immunization boosters ? ( for those of you who are old enough for it to apply to you )
If you haven't done any of the above ( especially the Flu one on an annual basis ) AND are joining in with the mob complaining about people who don't vaccinate their kids, what is your excuse for not getting the aforementioned vaccines ?
Before you mod-flame this question into oblivion, and I'm fairly certain that's the way it will go because it goes against the echo-chamber hive mind, do make it a point to remember that a simple strain of Flu is responsible for killing more people than probably every other disease combined.
Some of you probably do get them. I'm guessing, however, the majority do not.
Thus my question.
You need to deal with that.
Take away that doctor's licence to practise.
...plus those citizens with legitimate medicals reasons not to vaccinate, or for whom the vaccination was less than wholly effective, etc.
The only connection between those dots is the crap between your ears. You not having an ID isn't going to carry the risk of getting everyone who does have ID's around you sick, or possibly even dead.
Do we get to chose to ignore the lame slippery slope and false equivalency fallacies? There's no connection between a safe and nearly 100% effective vaccine and Tuskegee, you incompetent boob.
The parents have their rights as parents. They can refuse to vaccinate their children. Personally I think these parents are in practical terms dumber than a spoiled turnip despite their likelihood of being well educated. That says something about our educational system and abilities to think critically. Nonetheless, this is their right.
With all rights lie responsibilities. Their children should have the right to sue their parents for mal-parenting and refer their parents to the police for possible criminal prosecution for endangering the child filing the suit. The parents must be prepared to face their responsibility for their actions.
Fair is fare, after all.
{^_^}
If individuals could do whatever they wanted, and let no "government" impose any restrictions, then everyone should be allowed to walk up to someone and stab them in the back.
Stabbing a child in the back? Obviously not - nearly 100% of us instinctively recoil from that idea. But ... enough people exercising their right to make idiot decisions causing a measles outbreak, and they will kill that child with weak immune system who cannot get vaccinated due some allergy,.
Dead is dead, whether it is from a knife in the back or from disease. I think that if you took some of those anti-vaxxers to a hospital, showed them that "here is a group of kids in poor health who cannot get vaccine, if we get a measles outbreak one of them is likely to die - let's just get it over with now, we will let your child not have the vaccine if you strangle one of these kids with your own hands" - there would not be too many takers.
This is an extension of the same logic that guns are so dangerous. It is a more impersonal weapon which can kill from a distance. In addition to being a force equalizer, it is a lot easier (I assume) to point at someone and pull the trigger, rather than having to go up and wrestle them while stabbing with a knife. Well, anti-vaxxing is just that. It is something which kills someone you don't know from an action that has no violence associated with it whatsoever.
Those anti-vaxxers should just go live on their own island, and put in place whatever "no government, no regulation, I will do whatever the frack I want" policies - then we send some drones over there and broadcast Lord of the Flies II live for a couple months, until they extinct themselves. Because humans are herd beings, and herds don't functions when its members are not willing to sacrifice for the collective good.
Actually, that would be one way to deal with anti-vaxxers, government saying "ok, if you are going to do that, here is a metric crap ton of benefits we are not going to provide - no healthcare, no school, here is a chip for your car so you will be paying for using roads, no police coming to your house if you call 911, no help from embassies if you get into trouble while abroad, you are banned from national parks, ..."
If we give the government the mandate to forcefully inject our bodies with vaccines against measles, then why not against an arbitrary flu. Having the flu causes economic damage, since you will not show up at work.
And, why not have a chip implanted that permanently measures your health, so medical attention can be sought immediately when necessary? Surely you wouldn't want your children to risk being late for cancer treatment?
Oh well, now we have a chip, why not add some more features that are useful for running society more smoothly?
It's a slippery slope and it's bodily integrity that is at stake here.
You're 100% correct. Fortunately none of our drugs contain Mercury, not in chemical form not in planet form.
Read a book.
Pensions don't teach children.
Not directly. But they sure as hell have a bearing on the quality of education your child receives.
Right now you would have to have failed school to decide to become a teacher in a *USA public* school. It's a thankless shit job with horrible pay, crap benefits, long hours, and a bureaucratic overhead that rivals that of the UK government.
how can an "unprotected" kid hurt "protected" kids, if the protected ones are vaccinated?
No, but if you drink alcohol and engage in public disorderly conduct, or if you drive while intoxicated, you will be "forced" into jail. Rights and responsibilities. Drink all you want but act responsibly. Drive all you want but do it responsibly. And have all the kids you want but raise them responsibly, which includes vaccines.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Exactly. In other words, it's the Social Contract.
Some believe they are born with freedom, which means freedom to do whatever they goddamn well please and everyone else be damned. There are places for them, but they're called communes.
Rarely do you get to see it working across generations
Poor A/C, are your descendants vaccinated?
oh, a "taxes is theft" dolt.... Someone who doesn't want first responders, public schools, roads, bridges, highways, jails, parks or anything for the public good. Lets just to back to the lawless old west days.