China Bans 23 Million From Buying Travel Tickets as Part of 'Social Credit' System (theguardian.com)

China blocked 23 million "discredited" travelers from buying plane or train tickets last year as part of the country's controversial "social credit" system aimed at improving the behavior of citizens. From a report: According to the National Public Credit Information Centre's 2018 report, 17.5 million people were banned from buying flights and 5.5 million barred from purchasing high-speed train tickets because of social credit offences. The report released last week said: "Once discredited, limited everywhere." The social credit system aims to incentivize "trustworthy" behavior through penalties as well as rewards. According to a government document about the system dating from 2014, the aim is to "allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step." Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.

Comments

Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

China is awesome. Everything China does is brilliant.
--
AmiMoJo

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming to a western democracy near you soon.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[lgw]

Coming to a western democracy near you soon.

The San Francisco Tech Oligopoly are doing their best. Fortunately, they aren't backed by the rule of law (yet) and in the US new alternatives are gradually emerging to allow uncensored political discussion online.

It's a much worse situation in e.g. the UK, where it's now illegal to offend people, and blasphemy laws are routinely enforced (under the label of hate speech). But the UK hasn't fallen off the cliff yet. There was discussion in parliament a while back during the riots about removing benefits for people identified as rioters (most of whom have no practical means of legal survival except a government check). But the discussion didn't go anywhere, and sanity prevailed for now. Still prety close to that cliff edge though.

It's not at all clear that a society can ever recover from a panopticon totalitarianism.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Trotsky-slut progs want the same for the USA. No republican yeoman will tolerate it in the name of mobocracy! What a perfideious combo nibbers/beaners/Schumeresque-Peolosite power-mongers/limo-libs/gaffots/femi-nazis/bleeding-hearts and globalist money-hoes. The entire emotocentric/Stalinist spedctrum of social spew. They need suppression ... seen out in-the-streets ... smash-faced in the alley ... kicked into the gutter ... it's coming Bosco, count on it.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[jellomizer]

We already have it.
When someone has committed a felony or has been arrested (even if innocent) the action is on the record, making it harder for people to get jobs, apply for loans, and do things in general to help them improve their lives.

For a lot of criminals, they don't do crime because they want to be a bad person, they do it because they cannot see any better alternatives. Then if they get caught, and once they leave jail, even more better alternatives are now off the table.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[dryeo]

Well America does it privately. Credit bureaus to keep track of if you didn't pay back loans, lists of people who were arrested along with a culture of not hiring someone if previously arrested, as you must be a bad person if ever arrested and a really bad person if found or forced to plead guilty. As it is a private decision not to hire, rent housing etc it's considered fine.
Government also gets involved with lists of people not allowed to fly, lists of people not allowed to live in certain places, lists of people not allowed to own firearms and even lists of people not allowed to vote.
These lists usually make sense at first look, eg not allowing sex offenders to live by kids, until you look at all the reasons the government will put you on the sex offenders list.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Gab just announce a new service where their users - people who consider Goldwater to be a lefty - identify WrongThinkers with a browser plug-in?

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

There are orders of magnitude here. 23,000,000 is a lot of people. The US has 326 million people. That would be 7% of the US population which would have their passports revoked, and even permits to go between states (which don't exist) yanked.

Yes, the US has issues, but there are orders of magnitudes of difference between what goes on here and the extensiveness of China's oppressive tactics.

Don't forget, you can dispute credit scores. In fact, I have seen people with -crap- for scores still get credit cards, cars, and mortgages. Arrests require a trial, even if it is a show trial. In China, there is no way to contest this, and there is no due process. If an arresting official wants your organs for the organ bank, he will get them.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Oswald McWeany]

We already have it.
When someone has committed a felony or has been arrested (even if innocent) the action is on the record, making it harder for people to get jobs, apply for loans, and do things in general to help them improve their lives.

For a lot of criminals, they don't do crime because they want to be a bad person, they do it because they cannot see any better alternatives. Then if they get caught, and once they leave jail, even more better alternatives are now off the table.

As bad as that is, it impacts far fewer people than what China does; although, it's probably inevitable that we're sliding down the same path in the US unless some sort of regulation on how private data is shared.

Over here it might not be so much a government sponsored score; but one maintained by private companies.

AI identifies a tattoo on one guy on his facebook photo. Because on average the average person without tattoos probably does less jail time than the person with tattoos- he drops 40 points in his score (despite being law-abiding). His Amazon account shows he has bought a t-shirt with "it's 4:20 somewhere" written on it. He drops another 40 points. Wal-mart reports he bought a lot of beer in the last month (he threw a party)- he drops another 20 points. He goes to buy a plane ticket from Delta but the flights are all booked and so he is put on wait list.

A seat opens up, but a clean shaven guy who buys self-help books and metrosexual skin creams gets the seat instead; Delta could have given it to either guy but determines that the metrosexual is less likely to cause damage and cause a scene because he has a higher civic score.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

That has to be the shittiest rationalization of crime ever.

You were no doubt jailed for sexually abusing your kids.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Oswald McWeany]

That has to be the shittiest rationalization of crime ever.

If Mr. X steals something from Mr. Y and the cops accidentally arrest you before realizing their mistake; you're innocent, but you have a public record that people can look up on the internet.

You don't have to actually commit a crime to be listed online for having been arrested for one.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Gavagai80]

It's 1.66% of China's population. Pointing out that 23 million is a large percentage of the USA population is an absurd attempt at disinformation.

For an equivalent group in the USA, we might look at people whose right to vote (and to hold a lot of jobs) has been revoked due to a previous felony conviction. As of 2016, 2.5% of the USA's voting age population was barred from voting due to a felony -- if you spread that out over the full population, it'd be just a little more than than China's socially discredited group. Considering China imprisons far fewer people, social credit may be seen as an alternative punishment for that population.

(Of course, the entire Chinese population lacks the right to meaningful voting.)

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Ogive17]

At this rate china will very quickly pass up the us.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[dgatwood]

If they did this in the U.S., some percentage of creditless people, isolated from family and friends by their inability to travel, and unable to do anything meaningful to escape their stressful lives, would likely lose the will to live, and would probably take a bunch of people with them when they went.

China, with its strict ban on private ownership of firearms, might not have that problem to the same extent, but I would still expect this to cause a significant increase in suicides and murders, and in particular, murders of children by parents.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[thunderclees]

This is true and like the PRC the wealthy and connected can insulate themselves from the system. The US military was doing this until 71' with the SPN codes on the DD214 which followed the victim for the rest of their lives.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Itâ(TM)s always been here for anyone who canâ(TM)t afford a plane ticket.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Take your meds. Progs, would never support such authoritarian measures.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[DNS-and-BIND]

It is a very bad idea to hire criminals to work for you. It's not some horrible US culture. If it's such a wrong, why don't YOU hire some criminals to work for you? Oh, you won't be doing that? But the rest of us have to expose ourselves to unnecessary risk just so you can feel better about yourself. Gotcha.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

I would venture starving people riot more.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

China sucks ass! Bullshit country.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a single word you said made sense to me. Not taking a side, just, what are you trying to say?

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[AHuxley]

The trick a lot of US bands try and do politically is set persons reputation within that sector to something like that of a banned group under color of law.
Great for virtue signalling for a while but its within the private sector.
It works for a while until a person works out legally its not the full power of US gov secrecy protecting such an industry wide shared reputation database.
Discovery then sets in and the who and why a person was added to a banned group list is out in the open.

Thats really the difference with the USA. The USA has discovery on why a person had their good reputation changed.
The gov cannot stop publication, free speech and stop a person after speech. The US gov cannot take away the ability to publish.
The private sector can try and set a united position on political speech, funding.
But once a person finds out what was done to their good reputation for political reasons they can ask why in the USA.
They can also tell the world why they got their accounts altered industry wide at the same time :)

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[larryjoe]

For an equivalent group in the USA, we might look at people whose right to vote (and to hold a lot of jobs) has been revoked due to a previous felony conviction.

What we need is more information about what crimes were committed by the 23 million Chinese? Were they drug dealers or bank robbers? Were they convicted of felonies? How many of the crimes were related to "spreading false information"? It's this latter crime that is the crucial difference between the Chinese and American systems. There is no 1st Amendment in China, so there is no protection for thought or speech. The standard for defamation in the US is very high and for political defamation even higher.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[dryeo]

Are people who have been arrested and then released for whatever reason criminals. Are people who got convicted of having some pot 30 years ago criminals? Not to mention people who made a bad decision years back.
It's attitudes like yours that leads to America having millions of people in jail, blanket generalizations rather then considering on a case by case basis, especially in a country where everyone commits a couple of felonies a day.
Perhaps one day, you'll get arrested, threatened with multiple charges adding up to a good chunk of life in jail and due to spending all your money on medical issues, you won't be able to pay a lawyer, have to plead guilty and join the criminal ranks.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

What offends? Sounds like a very large umbrella of things...

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[mentil]

Many people hire illegal immigrants to do their yardwork, or to work at their business. Not hiring people with a criminal record is more CYA if something happens and there's a liability suit: "You KNEW they had a record of doing X and yet you hired them anyways, therefore you're liable since they did Y on the job!"

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[mentil]

Using the word 'metrosexual' unironically in a sentence: negative 100 points.
Using the word 'unironically' in a sentence: negative 200 points.
Using self-effacing humor: negative 300 points.
Mocking social credit systems: priceless.
Using dead memes: death penalty.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[kenai_alpenglow]

Canada isn't all that close if you're in Texas--USA is a large country.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[kenai_alpenglow]

Are people who were in HS or College and got drunk and did something stupid (black face, kiss a girl, etc) still criminals 30 years later? Even if they didn't do it but were just accused by someone with a political agenda?

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[kenai_alpenglow]

You realize there are ways to kill lots of people w/o guns? In fact the worst school "shooting" was actually a guy w explosives?

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[porlryan]

Blasphemey laws where abolished in 2008 stop spreading nonsense.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez, hope no one gives you a 2nd chance if you ever mess anything up. I'd say it all depends on the crime. Busted for armed robbery; sure; your point is valid. Busted for a smoking a plant in your 20s.. harmless.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[DNS-and-BIND]

So you're saying you won't be hiring them. Yup. Everyone else needs to comply. How typical.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

You could also build some concentration camps. Just for security reasons. There, working would make them free.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[dryeo]

I guess I wasn't clear, it would be on a case by case basis and have to consider the law.
Understand it may be illegal to discriminate on criminal history here if the person has been granted a pardon or a record suspension ordered. It's also not that hard to get a pardon, keep your nose clean for some years and pay a fee basically. Further it may be grounds for a discrimination case if the conviction is unrelated to the work.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem doesn't go away if you sweep it under the rug. The problem at its root being an employer caring about someone who smoked weed 20 years ago. If you've ever rented a property to someone in a cheap area, some of your tenants can be pretty dire, I hear horror stories from my parents all the time. It's not fair on people who do the right thing, who ultimately foot the bill in the form of higher rents. Yes it should be opt in, but anyone off the grid will rightfully raise red flags.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese wear their own clothes we wear ours I suppose if it comes dine to platitudes

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

It's sad that we have to assume you're being sarcastic.

The party that literally died for free speech rights now burns down their own universities to stop gays and jews from speaking.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

"Criminals are victims!" you sniveled.

Only a rich white liberal who has never had to experience being a victim feels like you do.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[dgatwood]

I have a sneaky suspicion that explosives are even more highly regulated than guns over there.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

You were clear. He's just too stupid to understand.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Which party died for free speech? The Whigs or something?

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, fireworks? Gunpowder??

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Oswald McWeany]

Using the word 'metrosexual' unironically in a sentence: negative 100 points.
Using the word 'unironically' in a sentence: negative 200 points.
Using self-effacing humor: negative 300 points.
Mocking social credit systems: priceless.
Using dead memes: death penalty.

Forget airplanes- with my social score I wouldn't be allowed to ride a taxi, a bus, or a train. I suspect China will still welcome me on Uber though.

Re: Sound's like a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

EVERY large multinational hires criminals. They're called 'the CEO' and 'senior management'.

Fuck you China

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you

Re: Fuck you China

[Anonymous Coward]

N1ggers like you should keep it to yourselves. China does not give a shit.

Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

But that won't be the focus of Western reporting.

Re:Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no! The religion that is never happy until the country does things the way they like is shocked when the government sees them as seditious.

Also...you guys used to pride yourself on being able to handle persecution when it meant being crucified or thrown to the lions but now you whine when they make you fly the country's flag higher than the cross.

Re:Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

Found the Jew!

Re:Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

But that won't be the focus of Western reporting.

Western reporting focuses far more on crimes done to Christians than on crimes done by Christians to members of other religions. When was the last time you heard a news story about the Christian terrorist groups in Africa that target Muslims?

Re: Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the atheist? Or Wiccan? You are a lame hater.

Re:Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll care about that after the Christians stop protecting the pedophiles in their clergy and allowing them continued access to children.

Until then, fuck each and every one of them.

Re: Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus was a Jew, funny how Christians forget that.

Re:Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll care about that after the Christians stop protecting the pedophiles in their clergy and allowing them continued access to children.

Until then, fuck each and every one of them.

Even the children?

Re: Christian Persecution Increasing

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we only make the women fuck the Christian clergy. They'd hate that.

Absolutely loathesome

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck China.

Re:Absolutely loathesome

[Oswald McWeany]

Fuck China.

I'll try- but there's far too many of them and I need more downtime between encounters than I did as a teenager.

Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Rick Schumann]

That's what this bullshit sounds like: a bad parent, who never forgets anything bad their kid did, continually reminds them, and always suspects them before anyone else when something bad happens, always believes the so-called 'good kid'. 'Guilty until proven innocent'. You may as well just kill these people, it would be less cruel.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Aristos Mazer]

If there's no expiration date on the missteps, then the "good kids" can use this to great advantage. It's a great way to build an inflexible caste system (if your goal is to build such a system). Also a good way to convince the bad ones that they might as well *really* be bad because, heck, they've got nothing to lose.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any tips for parents with a kid who is a constant fuck up, no matter how much forgiveness and leniency they are given? Asking for a friend.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Who helped China create this system? What company?

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of it was local, but a great portion was from Cisco, Microsoft, Apple, Narus (at that time a subsidiary of Boeing), Yahoo, etc., etc.

sgt_doom

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Also a good way to convince the bad ones that they might as well *really* be bad because, heck, they've got nothing to lose.

Great! Maybe the US will drop to second place in mass shootings.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Oswald McWeany]

That's what this bullshit sounds like: a bad parent, who never forgets anything bad their kid did, continually reminds them, and always suspects them before anyone else when something bad happens, always believes the so-called 'good kid'. 'Guilty until proven innocent'. You may as well just kill these people, it would be less cruel.

I'm a strong believer in that people live up to their expectations too. If you tell a kid he will never be up to any good... guess what- he won't. People tend to fill the expectations and moulds that other people provide for them.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[alvinrod]

You may as well just kill these people, it would be less cruel.

If they killed them, they wouldn't have a constant and visible reminder for everyone else to stay in line.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is how civil wars start: Create mass unrest among a broad population base.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Oswald McWeany]

You may as well just kill these people, it would be less cruel.

If they killed them, they wouldn't have a constant and visible reminder for everyone else to stay in line.

I almost hesitate to suggest this in case someone in Chinese government is reading Slashdot... but...

You could always line the roads in and out of major cities with crucified criminals, rebels, and runaway slaves like the Romans did.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[QuadEddie]

Nope, we have way more blacks than China

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Most mass shootings are by white people.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Comrade Ogilvy]

As pointed out in 1984, the proles can start unrest, but they do not create revolutions, although other groups can take advantage of unrest to make try to start a revolution.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[GrumpySteen]

I'm sure you could find A Modest Proposal if you looked around.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Rick Schumann]

Chillingly accurate.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

No, most shooting are black on black violence

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Only mass shootings count now. If we reported every dead person from black on black we would become even more numb to it then we are now. We might actually turn the TV off and then the network would lose advertising dollars.

Can't have that.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Perfectly describing the US Justice system

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Rick Schumann]

Racist asshole, fuck off.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Rick Schumann]

Considering how cheap life is to the Chinese government they'll probably just use that as an excuse to reduce the population.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Rick Schumann]

Perfectly describing the US Justice system
Only if you're non-white, apperently, though.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Lobachevsky]

In order to have a caste system, you need assortative mating, which will probably happen if a 'good' spouse can't take high-speed rail, go abroad on vacations, or fly, when marrying a 'bad' spouse.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Cmdln Daco]

The Chinese still have a lingering bad taste in their mouth from the Cultural Revolution.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not how caste system works. Caste systems are such that you are BORN in to a certain caste, not that you become part of a caste, through mistakes you made in current life.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Great Idea. We get organs, they get less cruelty. Win-Win! Thanks. Sincerely, China.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. this will cause real and deep social disintegration. That's truly dangerous.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Education is the answer. Hiding everyone's skeletons just makes the situation worse, as it reinforces the notion that it's not OK even 20 years later, so you better keep it a secret. A bit more honesty could be just what is needed. Closet homosexuality doesn't help anyone. Coming out about it, is how you shape more progressive views.

Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Racist asshole, fuck off.

I guess you're deliberately unaware that, outside of inner cities, the US crime rate is about the same as Switzerland's?

Including gun crime?

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

52% of gun homicides are committed by black men, despite being 6% of the population.

White and Hispanic people (they purposefully combine the two) are behind only 36% of gun homicides.

Studies that try to look at specifically white homicide rates indicate it might be as low as 5.8%.

You are a sniveling fucking moron, and also demonstrably wrong.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

Facts are racist! Shut up racist! No no no no!

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

"B-b-but black people don't commit crimes!" he lied.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

White Supremacists/racists/Neo-Nazis need not apply.
Perpetuating racial stereotypes, presuming guilty until proven innocent based on ethnicity, 'DWB' (driving while black), and so on, assholes need not apply. In fact GTFO my country, you're fucking everything up just because you're still butthurt that you lost the goddamned motherfucking CIVIL WAR.
(YOU) can all GTFO my country. (YOU) can all have your goddamned citizenship revoked and be deported to the 100-mile limit out in the goddamned ocean and left for chum for all I care. (YOU) are dividing us, (YOU) are making the world a miserable place. Just fucking die.

Re: Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid'

[Anonymous Coward]

But the Swiss crime rate outside Swiss inner cities is like the Antarctic crime rate.

Conform or be banned

[Anonymous Coward]

Conform or be punished!

Re:Conform or be banned

[Anonymous Coward]

conform or be cast out

Discredited

[Camel Pilot]

"allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step."

Discredited here includes voicing an opinion against the prevailing totalitarian regime or someone in power. Can you say dystopian.

Re:Discredited

[Graydyn Young]

Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that. So far the only thing that dings your score is criminal charges, traffic violations, and defaulting on loans. So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.

The big problem I'm seeing here is that it digs people into a hole. If a person is defaulting on loans too much, they end up in a situation where paying off future loans becomes more difficult. That seems counter productive.

Re:Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

Also not walking your dog on a leash or smoking on a train gets you into a situation where you can't pay your loans. Source: TFA.

Re:Discredited

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that. So far the only thing that dings your score is criminal charges, traffic violations, and defaulting on loans. So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.

Do not defend any of this. It is totalitarian.

I find it ironic one of the complaints of communism is that the elite buy off the bourgeoisie (the middle class) by giving them access to the trappings of the elite, like loans and checking accounts. And here is a communist regime starting to do the exact same thing their core philosophy rails against as an abuse by the elites.

Re:Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget to use an authorised Communist Dog Leash.

Re:Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

"Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that."

Please see the story of Leo Hu. Its indirect but publishing dissenting material is the origin of his problems.
https://youtu.be/HqqZEf4LJuw?t=156

Re:Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that. So far the only thing that dings your score is criminal charges, traffic violations, and defaulting on loans. So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.

The big problem I'm seeing here is that it digs people into a hole. If a person is defaulting on loans too much, they end up in a situation where paying off future loans becomes more difficult. That seems counter productive.

Move to a city in China where the system has been implemented and find out for yourself; you will find out how dystopian it really is.

Re:Discredited

[GameboyRMH]

So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.

Those are still rather dystopian things, you've just been conditioned not to see them as such.

Re:Discredited

[barius]

China has millions of Uyghur muslims in internment camps where they are routinely subjected to violent abuse. The only reason for this holocaust is because Uyghur's won't renounce their religion when told to. Do you really think this social credit score is going to be applied to them in anything other than an oppressive manner? What Chinese authorities are setting up is a one-way street to a caste system in which the 'trouble makers' are blamed for all the failings of the authorities themselves. Rather than helping people to live happy lives as they see fit, the people will only be happy if they live their lives as the authorities see fit. See this applies to everyone, Uyghur, Han, and everything in between. No one is safe from the arbitrary accusation that they aren't being a good citizen. The authorities will be able to label anyone as a troublemaker, and they will do it to hide their own trouble making.

Re:Discredited

[Oswald McWeany]

Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that. So far the only thing that dings your score is criminal charges, traffic violations, and defaulting on loans. So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian. .

That's not true.

Simply being friends with someone with a low civic score on social media DOES give you a lower civic score. Time spent playing video games (at least when connected to servers that they can monitor) DOES lower your civic score. Having comments censored DOES lower your civic score.

It IS very dystopian and they ARE abusing the system already.

Re:Discredited

[epine]

So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.

I think you lack imagination. Big trees grow from small seeds.

Re:Discredited

[Aighearach]

Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that.

This isn't some theory people are throwing around, it is literally what they say their plan is, and it is part of what they say they're already doing.

There is very little speculation that they'll do some horrible thing, the speculation is that they'll do exactly what they said they'll do.

What a maroon.

Re:Discredited

[Aighearach]

Last month they were canceling the registration of Marxist student groups who pointed out the same things, so things might get "interesting" with that crowd.

That said, their system isn't based on Communism it is just a Confucian autocratic dictatorship that uses the colors and symbols of communism. It is actually just a traditional system for understanding Merit and deciding who has the most Merit to lead based on who shows the most success at taking control of the levers of power. There is deep-seated national unity around that concept of Merit.

But it definitely complicates things for them if that conflict does develop further, because of the messaging. It is potentially a major threat to current leadership in the future, though not really a systemic threat of any sort.

Re: Discredited

[Type44Q]

Do not defend any of this.

Nobody but a gov't shill ever would.

Re:Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that.

Can you prove that? Even circumstantial evidence? An anecdote?

The fact that is exactly what the Chinese government is saying in their own words pretty much guarantees it is anything except that.

So far the only thing that dings your score is criminal charges, traffic violations, and defaulting on loans. So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.

Even if your previous point had any weight to it and didn't have all the weight behind it being wrong, because one hasn't done something doesn't mean they won't unless we're talking laws of physics or math.

The article from The Guardian linked to this very story lists:
Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.

Here's an article from about a year ago when China started the project.
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/04/24/china-assigns-every-citizen-a-social-credit-score-to-identify-who-is-and-isnt-trustworthy/

It details the offence:
Liu is a journalist who was ordered by a court to apologize for a series of tweets he wrote and was then told his apology was insincere.

So no, people are not throwing around claims you can be discredited based on your social media posts because it *might* happen.
People are throwing around the fact you get discredited based on your social media posts because reporters show the court rulings showing exactly that.

I've seen reports listing many many different offences that lower your score, and yes most are not note worthy in my opinion as I agree those offences really are offences, often times crimes in most nations not just China.

Not paying taxes and fines will land you in trouble nearly everywhere.

Not giving up a train seat reserved by another person is very asshole behavior everywhere, if not a crime too. That would certainly get you arrested and jailed in the US.

Smoking in a non-smoking area is very asshole behavior and should be a crime if not - and I even say that as a smoker, some common courtesy and basic empathy is all one needs to know not everyone is like me, not everyone wants exposed to that, and there is nothing special about me to force that on others. My choice, my habit, my responsibility to not be a fucktard to other people.

Of course one may ask if the punishment is too harsh. Or as you point out:

The big problem I'm seeing here is that it digs people into a hole. If a person is defaulting on loans too much, they end up in a situation where paying off future loans becomes more difficult. That seems counter productive.

This is certainly a big problem. It isn't unique to China or this program either.
I think many laws in the US are far too harsh for any possible reform to happen, and in some cases are nearly guaranteed to make things worse.
It isn't like we don't have huge abuses by the government and law here too!

I agree this program in China sounds much the same that way, so sadly nothing special there.

But it's still dishonest to claim those abuses don't exist and pretend they can't get worse.

Re:Discredited

[Gr8Apes]

It'd be better if you never used credit. It's not dystopian because it's not a requirement for leading a happy life.

Re: Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

That country is moving away from cash so... They can block you from using your debit card just as easily. The point isn't whether you get a loan (and you won't), it's whether you can access any funds at all.

Re:Discredited

[AHuxley]

No cartoon bear jokes. No Emperor jokes.
No 1989 Tiananmen Square protests links.
Don't talk about term limits.
No saying Taiwan is the real China.
No to books like Brave New World, 1984 and Animal Farm.
Dont go looking for quality anime & manga.
Once seen and reported a person stays on the no travel, no education list.
As the points go lower, more is restricted.

Re: Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong, Chinese journalists have been affected already simply by expressing anything the government perceives as criticism or negative publication. This permeates paper and electronic publications. China already has extensive cyber surveillance systems.

https://m.slashdot.org/story/340161

Journalist with perfect financial history, no crime, retaliated against for none other than his written work.

Re:Discredited

[mentil]

Clearly the groups need to start identifying as Maoist.

Re:Discredited

[Aighearach]

Those ones got their registrations canceled a month earlier. Don't you follow the news?

Mao is a statue; attempts to discover anything more is forbidden in China. Maoist student groups are carefully monitored to make sure they don't do anything other than sing patriotic historical songs and organize holiday socials.

Re:Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

Where have you read this? I have yet to really get any detail on how they calculate the score. Did you just make this up?

Re:Discredited

[wisnoskij]

Providing loans = disallowing public transit use?

Re: Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

You have been fined 10 credits for the blatant misuse of 'holocaust".

Sitting in an air conditioned school room learning about Chinese history is not equal to being exterminated in mass gas chambers.

Nice try though, kiddo.

Re:Discredited

[Anonymous Coward]

Any credible source for your information?

Re: Discredited

[Gr8Apes]

A debit card is a credit card attached to your bank account. That's why "Visa" or "MC" is printed on it.

Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

By the likes of Ocasio-Cortez, Omar and Tlaib if they get their way.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[GLMDesigns]

It's coming here right now. Just look at the deplatforming being done by Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, Patreon.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[willaien]

No. Just no. Nothing of the sort has been proposed.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[willaien]

There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[K. S. Kyosuke]

You *are* aware that comment trains are not *actual* trains, aren't you?

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Camel Pilot]

Why do you believe that private companies have to provide a publishing platform for ideas that are deemed to be repulsive or counter to established principles? The alt-right (and extreme left) are marginalized and unpopular so they believe that others should be required to publish their crap. Get your own damn social network media

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea! Let's de-platform nazi's from their phone and cable subscriptions!

Those companies can do what they want since they are private.

Oh, there are rules against that? Well, obviously twitter is different. It's not like social media is where a sizeable amount of people get their information regarding society and politics. Who uses social media to influence their voting pattern?

What is the big deal in allowing big private companies with zero accountability control speech and information.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

really? because every day i read a new story about how some employer or agency now looks at your facebook and twitter life to see if you've been a jerk in the past so they have some reason to deny you something.

it's not too much of a stretch to see that this will continue and get worse in America, yes possibly until we become more like China. there's nothing stopping our country from going to the same place except reason and logic. two things in short supply nowadays....

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Luckyo]

Organisations like those that run trains in China you mean?

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[GLMDesigns]

Wow. You use free-market ideology when it suits you and disparage it when it doesn't.

When you say that companies must serve the public (bakers, woolworth, etc...) then do it for all companies.

I know I won't convince you. It's sad that you think deplatforming people for disagreement is acceptable. Bruce Jenner won the decathlon in 1976. Oooh. According to some fools I'm "dead" naming. Look at the fools at google - they have Caitlin Jenner as the winner of the 1976 decathlon. I think this is foolsihness of the first order. And for that I can be deplatformed from Twitter.

The American Cultural Revolution is at peak stupidity. Watch the coming fights between the feminist and lesbian communities and the transgender community over what constitutes a woman.

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really, when all corporations do it in lock step. Then the banks do it next, and your stuck.

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

You are* stuck.

Correction for the coming typo police.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[K. S. Kyosuke]

t's not like social media is where a sizeable amount of people get their information regarding society and politics.

I think you misspelled "disinformation"...

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[penandpaper]

Isn't that for people to decide and work out themselves instead of unaccountable tech giants with monopolistic control over information online?

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really a difference, when the "private" orgs can call upon the gub'mnt gun-barrel to defend their power. Otherwise, the dispossessed yeomanry would make streets run ankle-deep in their blood --- cut-them-down in the bedrooms of their privilege.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Bake me a cake for my gay wedding.

Whats that you were saying? Discriminating people based on color and/or sexual preference is acceptable and nothing should be said or done about that since its a public company?

Good to know how the liberals think. KKK meetings are starting back up in VA run by the governor Northam

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

You might think so, but people are building apps that record a permenent database on you and anything you did online, so it will float above your head in a virtual overlay. It is just like that Black Mirror episode but on steroids.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.

Yep.

The first is merely a precursor to the second.

When you can't defend yourself logically, you resort to trying to shut other people up.

And more importantly - you accept that behavior in others.

"Progressives" call it no-platforming. Yeah, it's even got a Wikipedia page.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

And when someone does decide to start their own alternative, the tyrants simply focus on their upstream provider, their DNS, their banking. At some point you have to use a shared service, and that's where they'll get you.

You're being dishonest when you state that you can "get your own damn social media network". It is not that they don't just want you off their platform. They want you silenced entirely.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[penandpaper]

I don't understand your comment. People shouldn't be the ones to decide how they are informed because tech giants with monopolistic control over information online have databases of information that can be used to misinform people?

I don't know what Black Mirror is and haven't seen it.

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[willaien]

Being an asshole isn't a protected class.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[sgt_doom]

Very well articulated, Good Citizen!

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

well there is the distinction that phone service is a life-essential thing, being on social media isn't, it's really no different than the position that cake decorators that are anti-gay shouldn't be forced to make wedding cakes for gay people

I'd also add that if a Nazi was using his phone service to further his cause, then yeah, I would be in favor of deplatforming him

but I agree with you principle, private companies shouldn't be able to silence people with differing opinions with no due process, that's why if some service is critical to maintaining civil rights including the right to life, it shouldn't be farmed out to private companies, it should be run by the government

telecomm access, consumer banking, power generation, common carrier travel and health care just to name the most obvious ones should be totally socialized

additionally if anything is "too big to fail", then the last hands it should be in is private for-profit business

finally I'll add that if Twitter announced it is deplatforming a few thousand middle-eastern people for promoting ISIS, you'd likely sing their praises or at very least, have nothing to say at all

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anubis IV]

It's coming here right now. Just look at the deplatforming being done by Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, Patreon.

The one is nothing like the other. In one case, we're talking about a government deplatforming its people from all platforms, thus depriving its people of fundamental freedoms—the right to move, in this case—which are frequently exercised out of necessity, not convenience, due to factors outside of one's control. In the other case, we're talking about individual organizations deplatforming their own users from only their own platform, thus depriving those users of no rights or freedoms and not costing those users anything beyond what they knowingly and voluntarily elected to build on top of that platform.

Put differently, the only people who need Facebook and its ilk are the ones who made choices that put them in a position of dependence, but any person could need to fly or take a train at some point due to a death in the family, work, or other obligations forced on them. We can choose not to depend on Facebook (I certainly have), but good luck choosing not to depend on fast transportation when you need it. Moreover, given that nearly everyone's reaction to learning that I either don't have or don't use accounts at any of the sites you listed is (after an incredulous "Really?") something to the effect of "You're almost certainly better off for it", I'd say that even the heaviest of users recognizes that those platforms are an inessential part of their lives.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at this dumb asshole being angry they can't spread racism.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[liquid_schwartz]

There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.

However when no alternative exists in either system then the net result is the same - disenfranchised people. And disenfranchised people who have no outlet will get more extreme.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Oswald McWeany]

No. Just no. Nothing of the sort has been proposed.

Not on a government level but Facebook has been trying to share data with your bank account. All sorts of other private companies share data about you between themselves. We already have the first steps in place for a privately run civic score.

Why do you think Facebook wants your bank account information? It's so that they can place ads to people based on the money they have. "Check Into Cash" for poor people and "Apple Watches" for rich people.

Why do you think the Bank wants your Facebook information? You can learn a lot about a person by what they post to Facebook.

We've already got our foot in the door to a private version of what the Chinese government has started. What we need is for laws that make it harder for private companies to share data about you.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Aighearach]

Fuck that, lets just kill the nazis. Worked last time.

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Being an asshole isn't a protected class.

Funny, I can't find the "Doesn't apply to assholes" when I research natural rights or read the First Amendment.

I guess you pulled that out of your asshole, asshole.

Why do "progressives" crave victimhood so damn much? (Oh, I know - because Marxism clings viciously to its facile, shallow, and fossilized 19th-century "Everything comes from the oppressor/oppressed dyanamic" bullshit. Funny how the "oppressors" are always white, Christian, European, and male. Barbaric Muslims murdering gays and forcing cliterectomies on women are "oppressed"...)

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[fish_in_the_c]

yes, but in the U.S.A. they do have an outlet. They can always find a different platform to communicate, other ways to pool money etc.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.

There is in functioning societies where there is a distinction between public institutions and private ones.

Increasingly in the US and Europe the wonderful innovation of Neoliberalism has blurred those lines so much that the distinction you draw is more theoretical than practical. The bottom line is that big corporation have powers that only a few years ago were reserved for the state.

Prisons are run by private, profit-making companies. All the public commons are now owned by someone. All methods of communications are increasingly censored and regulated. All this is happening, no need for a government to do anything.

And guess what? Despite what the folks like the Neocons claim, it ain't working. Yes, governments are inefficient and incompetent and corrupt. But the thing is, there are limits placed on their power. When corporations take over essential functions they are replacing government agencies with organizations who are more efficient, but they are every bit as corrupt, and they have fewer limits placed on what they can do. The government needs a court order to tap your communications. Thanks to Jeff Flake, your cable company can listen to anything you do and forward it to third party, and you can't do anything about it. They don't even need to tell you.

People's lives can be seriously fucked over by twitter, and it doesn't matter that twitter is a "private" thing: it can be just a deleterious as any government-run credit system

Governments used to understand this, and when a company had a de facto monopoly heavy regulation was placed on them (ironically, that was the US's most creative and expansive period, current cries of "we need freedom to innovate" not withstanding).

Governments exhibit corruption and will always do so. In China they can discredit you and keep you from moving around. In the West, the corruption these days is usually expressed in the ceading of power to private companies

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

>There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.

When the end result is the same, what difference does the means make?

We live in a "free speech society" where it's okay for the business that owns the town square to censor any speech, and throw out any person. In what meaningful way is that censorship different from government decree? Oh that's right, I can vote out/in government officials to change things, but I can't vote out/in the business that owns the town square.

How many centuries have we fought wars and rebellions over the rights we're supposed to have today? Control freaks have realized they can't control from government anymore - it's too neutered. Now they are subverting corporations to enforce their control freak psychopathy on the public by doing an end run around the rules we fought with blood, sweat, and tears over centuries, to enforce on the government.

I only have two words for the people who support corporate abuse of our society, simply because "It's not the government": Fuck. You.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[AHuxley]

Not if the organizations are using utility like protections to pass on a users own words, links as a users own publication.
Social media is then trying to become the publisher of a users content with bans, reporting, removal of content.
Social media cannot enjoy the full protections of been a utility while acting like a publisher and removing users political content.

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

"By the likes of Ocasio-Cortez, Omar and Tlaib if they get their way."

Explain?

You can't compare a dictatorship with American progs. just because you preach of traditionalist hate and have some brainwashed McCarthy-era view on what you think are "commies".

You are protected by free speech By the government but private online organizations have the right to refuse service.

If you want to spread your own brand of regurgitated, thoughtless rhetoric then start your own website.

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[willaien]

Funny that, I dont see anywhere in the first amendment where it applies to companies restricting free speech, just the government. Maybe you can argue that we should accept that we do have a de facto common communication system and we should consider restricting when and where large companies can censor. But, as it stands, we do not have free speech protections from Facebook on Facebook.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[serviscope_minor]

However when no alternative exists

Except alternatives do exist.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[sarren1901]

If the hosting companies are allowed to decide who to host, it effectively means they get to censor us based on whatever they want. That's bullshit.

No one forces you to read extremist websites and get offended. The same assholes get to have parades too. Bet that drives you nuts eh?

The Internet is such a cornerstone to our society that it needs to be treated as a utility. We all know why it's not. Corruption.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[sarren1901]

How am I suppose to start my own social network when this can happen?

https://www.knoxnews.com/story...

Hardly seems fair. Hosting companies shouldn't be able to discriminate but clearly they are allowed to do so.

Since the hosting company is a private company, that must be okay, right?

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[sarren1901]

So because you disagree with their dribble means they shouldn't get to say it?

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[mentil]

It's worth pointing out that TLAs already monitor your social media accounts (Elon keeps getting busted by the SEC for stuff he says on Twitter) and your bank accounts (IRS).

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[WaffleMonster]

There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.

I'll bite.

What's the difference between government running a disenfranchisement system and government allowing someone else to run it?

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[WaffleMonster]

Being an asshole isn't a protected class.

Assholes deserve just as much protection as any other "class".

When someone comes along and labels you an asshole you'll understand why.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[stdarg]

There's not really a huge difference when the government is giving license to those organizations to do so. Organizations currently are given big advantages over regular people when it comes to speech protection, for instance "safe harbor" from copyright infringement violations if they have a DMCA compliant take-down process. Why don't regular people have that? Then you can download whatever you want, share whatever you want, and when you get caught just delete that one specific file and carry on.

In the current situation, with the government allowing corporations to enforce rules against speech that the government itself would not be allowed to do, while at the same time protecting corporations from consequences of speech that regular individuals would be subject to, it's like the corporation is an extension of the government. The corporation essentially has sovereign immunity. To me that makes it either a 1st amendment issue (the corporation as an extension of government has to obey the same rules as government) or a 14th amendment issue (the corporation shouldn't be an extension of government, it should obey the same rules as we do). It's not fair to have this hybrid where it doesn't follow the rules for government NOR does it follow the rules for individual.

Re:Coming soon to the USA

[stdarg]

I don't think you can frame the argument in terms of need vs convenience or degree of difficulty because there are going to be plenty of cases where moving platforms (or building your own) actually is more difficult than physically moving.

Is it harder for an American to move to Canada than it is for a Patreon user to get all of their contributors to switch to some alternate payment coordinator that nobody has ever heard of? How about if 90% of your income came through Patreon?

Re: Coming soon to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless the experts in rockets, of course.

America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

... people who break the law or don't pay dept are low value and, depending, denied employment, guns, voting rights, incarcerated, evicted, fined, denied credit, denied loans ...

The approach is certainly newsworthy but the outcome is similar.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That makes sense if you think of China as a free country, where what is illegal correlates highly to what is undesirable for society.
But in China free speech is a crime.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[andydread]

I'm sorry but please explain how any of those stops someone from getting on a train, bus, boat, or airplane in America? thanks.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

No fly list...

Re:America has a similar system ...

[SlaveToTheGrind]

... people who break the law or don't pay dept are low value and, depending, denied employment, guns, voting rights, incarcerated, evicted, fined, denied credit, denied loans ...

So people who don't pay debt have trouble getting more credit. Shocking, that. The fact that some employers have the temerity to decide not to take on risk by hiring convicted felons into positions of responsibility is even more outrageous.

Weeding out all those silly instances, you're left suggesting that not being able to vote and buy guns because you're a convicted felon is on some level of moral equivalence with not being able to pull cash out of your pocket and buy a travel ticket because someone overheard you saying something negative about the government. That's stretching the words "similar system" to the breaking point.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[hackingbear]

I'm sorry but please explain how any of those stops someone from getting on a train, bus, boat, or airplane in America?

If you get listed in China's social score system, you can still use (regular) train, bus, and boat; you cannot travel by airplane or high-speed train, so the article title exaggerates the situation. Such practice is not unique to mainland China; in Hongkong, long before the hand-over, a bankrupted person cannot take taxi for example. In China, there's no such thing as personal bankruptcy and things like jaywalking, evading debt, etc. are rampant. While their social credit system may be abused, so is the US legal system, e.g. ones who use drug are jailed for long time, whereas the drug users in China may just be banned from flying airplanes and taking high-speed trains.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think the system in America is similar, you're smoking something pretty powerful. One of the drivers of the Social Credit system's score in China is "being a good citizen". What that means in practical terms is how much do you suck the CCP's dick? Criticize the government and you get strikes against you. Mindlessly praise the government and get a better score.

You REALLY want that system in the US? Obama's in power and you insult the Democrats on social media? No more flights for you, bad citizen. Trump's in power and you call him Cheeto Benito on Twitter? Hope you weren't looking to renew your mortgage at a lower rate because no new mortgage for you, not yours. Even better/worse, the system also looks at your social network. Your sister rants against Trump's misdeeds, her score drops, and yours does too because she's in your social media circle. The system is set up to encourage isolation of anyone who dissents. By all means, let's bring THAT to the US. After all, Trump is Perfect and We've Always Been At War With EastAsia!

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

That system is being built currently in the US. It just is private and not government. Everywhere you go people who care to check will see you supported this or that candidate, for the purpose of social ostracism.

You still have the private ballot. You just can't talk about it on the greatest free speech forum of all time, the Internet, because of computers and AI.

Or soon won't.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

Every goddam country on the planet has quirky laws. That's their business. America has a major fucking gun problem. China and every other country is astonished at the craziness. Are you willing to bend to peer pressure in that regard?

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

You REALLY want that system in the US?

Reading comprehension is an embarrassment for you.

Please quote my advocacy for China's policy to be implemented in the US.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

... because someone overheard you ...

You're going to have to read the article and try that again.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[SlaveToTheGrind]

While their social credit system may be abused, so is the US legal system, e.g. ones who use drug are jailed for long time, whereas the drug users in China may just be banned from flying airplanes and taking high-speed trains.

You're conflating drug users with drug dealers. The U.S. generally doesn't imprison people at all for possessing recreational quantities of drugs, much less for a "long time."

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

There's no need for one-to-one equivalency. For instance, China doesn't care for our batshit crazy gun worshiping, so use that as a substitute, OK?

China can't make us be like them, and it works both ways.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[SlaveToTheGrind]

You're going to have to read the article

Did that, actually. Not much more to it than is pasted in the summary. Feel free to share your point if you have one.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"whereas the drug users in China may just be banned from flying airplanes and taking high-speed trains."
I very much doubt they will be only banned from flying and high-speed trains.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[liquid_schwartz]

America has a major fucking gun problem. China and every other country is astonished at the craziness. Are you willing to bend to peer pressure in that regard?

I wonder if you realize that the majority of gun violence is done by illegal guns. So more laws against that won't help. See drug trade for more details on how that works.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

America has a major car problem. More people are killed by cars than guns. Cars are highly regulated, require licensing of the vehicle and driver, insurance and maintenance checks (smog) in many states, subject to random stops to check for alcohol. Doesn't seem like any of that has solved the cars killing people problem has it. We have a people problem not an object problem. Dumbass.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Targon]

If your logic is that the US government does horrible things, so that should excuse the Chinese or any other government when THEY do terrible things, then you are a part of the problem. "quirky laws" would be things such as needing to get a permit before allowing your pet moose to enter a bar with you. Making it so you say something against the government and suddenly you are no longer allowed to fly on a plane isn't what I would call a quirky law.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Aighearach]

You're conflating drug users with drug dealers. The U.S. generally doesn't imprison people at all for possessing recreational quantities of drugs, much less for a "long time."

That's incredibly ignorant.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[SlaveToTheGrind]

That's incredibly ignorant.

Et tu, my friend. "Everybody knows" doesn't count here.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[bigpat]

... people who break the law or don't pay dept are low value and, depending, denied employment, guns, voting rights, incarcerated, evicted, fined, denied credit, denied loans ...

The approach is certainly newsworthy but the outcome is similar.

Noted. Came here to post the same thing. There are important distinctions and lines that shouldn't be crossed. In the US there is no formal way to punish people for simply stating an opinion that is prior to the regime. And doing so in a business, might get you fired, but you can usually find a new job or move to someplace else to find a new job.

A totalitarian regime controls all aspects of people's lives because it doesn't trust people unless they are verified to be compliant. In the US we don't trust our government.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

By U.S. you must mean United Slovakia,
The united states of america routinely arrest, fines and jails people for recreational amounts of drugs.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Aighearach]

It isn't that everybody knows.

It is that any American who read a newspaper even just once a week for a year would already know it isn't true. And if you didn't know, but wanted to check, you'd easily find the answer.

That's how ignorant it is; you've been exposed to the information numerous times, and also you could look it up and check right now.

No need to wave your hands about what "everybody" knows; the standard is for you to know about the subject of your own claims. And you fail to meet that standard. That "everybody" knows the information is why I won't explain it to you, I'm only explaining that you're ignorant.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Everywhere you go people who care to check will see you supported this or that candidate, for the purpose of social ostracism.

I'm fine with this; fun making fools of people.

Want to deny be service because of it? Even more fun.

Because this is America; we indeed have free speech, and white horse exclusionists are easily cut down by a good joke.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Every goddam country on the planet has quirky laws. That's their business. America has a major fucking gun problem. China and every other country is astonished at the craziness. Are you willing to bend to peer pressure in that regard?

Wrong

Some relatively small parts of the US have a major fucking gun problem.

Seriously. Actually dig into the statistics.

Outside of those small areas, the US is pretty much Switzerland when it comes to violence.

But we're not allowed to point out that inconvenient fact.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[AHuxley]

People in the USA don't get reported for talking about a cartoon bear, term limits, Animal Farm, 1984.
No housing, education, travel bans in the USA for publishing, talking, commenting.
The USA has freedom of speech and freedom after speech.
In the USA people can talk and publish about the Communist party history.
Say that Taiwan is the real China.
People in the USA are free to read books from South Korea and Japan.
Then talk about the plots and reviews.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

While their social credit system may be abused, so is the US legal system, e.g. ones who use drug are jailed for long time, whereas the drug users in China may just be banned from flying airplanes and taking high-speed trains.

You're conflating drug users with drug dealers. The U.S. generally doesn't imprison people at all for possessing recreational quantities of drugs, much less for a "long time."

Unless your skin color is something other than white.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

America has a major fucking gun problem. China and every other country is astonished at the craziness. Are you willing to bend to peer pressure in that regard?

I wonder if you realize that the majority of gun violence is done by illegal guns. So more laws against that won't help. See drug trade for more details on how that works.

Funny how all those illegal guns started as legal guns.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

Are you going to vote to revoke the second amendment? If not, then shut up.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

So what you're saying is that America is not China. By the same token, China is not America. That's my point.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

But we're not allowed to point out that inconvenient fact.

Irony much?

Re:America has a similar system ...

[SlaveToTheGrind]

any American who read a newspaper even just once a week for a year would already know it isn't true. . . . you've been exposed to the information numerous times, and also you could look it up and check right now.

Predictably, your claim "it's everywhere" is accompanied by precisely zero examples. I'm sure you'll come up with some kind of very clever excuse why you didn't, but the reality is it's because there's nothing to provide: The Washington Post fact checker rated that sort of claim as four Pinnochios, and extensively explained why. I know it can be scary to click on links outside your echo chamber, so I'll even summarize it for you: Less than 3.5% of state and less than 0.5% of federal prisoners are incarcerated due to drug possession. The percentage of those incarcerated for possession of recreational quantities would of course be smaller (likely much smaller), and the percentage incarcerated for "a long time" for recreational quantities would be smaller still, though even the full-scale numbers demonstrate my point clearly enough. Thanks for playing.

Re: America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Losing the right to vote for drug use is pretty bad. Weed users should be able to vote for candidates who are against those laws.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[AHuxley]

That China uses people to report other people.
That the reason for reporting is a person attempted to publish on a topic the Communist party wants no comment on.
That Communist will set any topic to be reported.
That such reporting will follow a person around for decades. It can also create a new report on family and people connected in any way to the person reported
The person who reported another person gets rewarded. Lots of incentive to report a lot of people.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Darinbob]

This is bullshit. It is not happening. Please get your news from somewhere other than slashdot, youtube, and infowars.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

Goddam you, you little turd. People like you piss me off.

Read then post .

Fatality Rate Per 100,000 Persons (2008-2017)

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

You're posting a hell of a lot more than you actually know.

RTFA

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

I wonder if you realize how to craft a link.

Re: America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oversimplification of the matter.

What can be construed as a "recreational amount" of drugs in one jurisdiction could be considered "drug trafficking" in another.

All it could take is one sandwich bag you accidentally left in your car on top of the presence of drugs or a very conservative county/state that overcharges even on possession.

I point the difference in crime labels because once you count the drug offenders in prison for "drug trafficking" vs. "Possession", you're looking at over 50% of the incarcerated population.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

I did.

Re: America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

No one is trafficking less then an ounce. On the other hand, no one has a pound for personal use.

Also, you clearly failed to read the article that SlaveToTheGrind posted, but that's no surprise. Probably didn't read the main article either.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[Anonymous Coward]

>> how any of those stops someone from getting on a train, bus, boat, or airplane in America?

Ever heard of "no fly" lists?

Re:America has a similar system ...

[SlaveToTheGrind]

Ah, then you clearly have none. Happy trails.

Re: America has a similar system ...

[SlaveToTheGrind]

I point the difference in crime labels because once you count the drug offenders in prison for "drug trafficking" vs. "Possession", you're looking at over 50% of the incarcerated population.

Otherwise known as 15%, but hey, what's a 200+% error band amongst friends? Small wonder you posted anon.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

See you in the funny papers.

Re: America has a similar system ...

[Aighearach]

Who would read that shit? It is a blatant straw man.

Critical thinking would require looking for articles about people who are in prison with a long sentence for possession.

Maybe you missed it when it was in the news that Obama was shortening the sentences of a bunch in that situation in federal prison. There are many more in State prisons.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[AHuxley]

That the system is not based on human reporting?
That the system is not fully enforced for decades and decades and connected to each person reported?
That people connected to the person reported will also get a more negative report?
The access to travel, healthcare, housing, loans, work is then altered as a result of such reporting.
The Communist system is well understood.

Re:America has a similar system ...

[CaptainDork]

The Communist system is well understood.

By whom? Certainly not you.

There are two general systems of communism. The theoretical was the objective of the 60's hippies whereby, in a commune, every person is an equal owner of the product of every member.

China's "communism," is a misnomer. Try dictatorship.

The bullshit you're spouting happens in every high school and prison.

Aren't you special...

[Camel Pilot]

The Chinese have persecuted the falun gong with even more vengeance.

Re:Aren't you special...

[ShanghaiBill]

The Chinese have persecuted the falun gong with even more vengeance.

The Chinese Communist Party sees any independent civil society organization as a threat, because it can form a nucleus for political unrest. Falun Gong has gone much further than the Christian churches in creating a parallel civil society structure outside of CCP control. The illegal churches are mostly independent of each other, and try to keep a low profile. Falun Gong has directly challenged the CCP, even holding several big protests in Tiananmen Square back in 1999-2000.

Re:Aren't you special...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah...when your qigong spiritual leader admits that all the other qigong spiritual leaders are scam artists but he's the real deal then maybe you're dealing with an organization that's comfortable with breaking the law?

Re:Aren't you special...

[liquid_schwartz]

The Chinese have persecuted the falun gong with even more vengeance.

And both are wrong. Persecuting someone for their religion is wrong either way.

Re:Aren't you special...

[Anonymous Coward]

What about power-hungry cults masquerading as religions?

Not in America

[Anonymous Coward]

the aim is to "allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step." Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.

We could never implement that policy here. It would be unworkable to have our commander-in-chief confined to a White House broom closet.

ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Anonymous Coward]

How to punish wrongthink: China does it through the government, the US does it through private companies though there are currently efforts to codify it into laws.

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[willaien]

There's a big difference between habitual harassers being run off platforms (by those platforms) because they broke their TOS and the government making it so that you cannot travel.

Are you saying that companies have no free speech? I cannot choose who uses my platform or not? Or does that only apply when bakers refuse to make cakes for gay couples?

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Luckyo]

You are harassing me with these statements, and should be run off all social media platforms for it.

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Stolovaya]

I think the problem is that who they want on their platform is not codified up front. I'm liberal, and I'm rather disgusted by how many people are thrown off these platforms. And then anytime someone comes along and tries to make one that's "free speech" based, it's immediately associated with nazis or other bad elements.

If Twitter wants their platform to be for far-left ideologues only, okay. But say that up front.

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

And be careful wishing for public opinion driving corporations to ignore people tracked by a database as having supported candidate X. That shoe could ne on the other foot.

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering all of this China rhetoric is coming from Steve Bannon sycophants, I'm gong to say wrongthink is being handled by the US government as well.

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Aighearach]

And then anytime someone comes along and tries to make one that's "free speech" based, it's immediately associated with nazis or other bad elements.

"Associated with" nazis, or "frequented by" nazis?

Do you agree that it is the nazi part that is the problem?

Honestly, you sound like a nazi trying to pretend to be a liberal, rather than a liberal.

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Stolovaya]

"Associated with" nazis, or "frequented by" nazis?

Doesn't really matter. I don't agree with nazi ideology, but it's the right to associate with whom you choose. Everyone gets free speech, or it's not actually free speech.

Do you agree that it is the nazi part that is the problem?

Not anymore than any other speech out there. I see all kinds of hate for all kinds of groups out there. It's fine until it gets to the territory of calling for violence. So groups are free to hate on other groups. I think it's stupid and moronic to hate someone for having an immutable trait, but, that's part of freedom; the freedom to be moronic and stupid.

Honestly, you sound like a nazi trying to pretend to be a liberal, rather than a liberal.

Oh? Can you show me what values I share with nazis? I didn't know a nazi value was "everyone should have free speech"; that's news to me. Does that make the founders of the US also nazis as free speech was a value they believed in?

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Stolovaya]

"Associated with" nazis, or "frequented by" nazis?

Doesn't really matter. I don't agree with nazi ideology, but it's the right to associate with whom you choose. Everyone gets free speech, or it's not actually free speech.

Do you agree that it is the nazi part that is the problem?

Not anymore than any other speech out there. I see all kinds of hate for all kinds of groups out there. It's fine until it gets to the territory of calling for violence. So groups are free to hate on other groups. I think it's stupid and moronic to hate someone for having an immutable trait, but, that's part of freedom; the freedom to be moronic and stupid.

Honestly, you sound like a nazi trying to pretend to be a liberal, rather than a liberal.

Oh? Can you show me what values I share with nazis? I didn't know a nazi value was "everyone should have free speech"; that's news to me. Does that make the founders of the US also nazis as free speech was a value they believed in?

I must also be a very odd nazi with believing and supporting things like equality, same sex marriage, immigration reform, social safety nets based on class (for everyone, but mainly targeting the poor), single payer healthcare...those are nazi values?

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Aighearach]

When killing nazis, there is no value in differentiating between the "true believers" and those who defend them.

Re: ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Stolovaya]

This comment puts you around the same level as a nazi. You're free to say it, but you're disgusting. Just like a nazi.

Re:ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[AHuxley]

Depends on when a social media company wants to use the full protection of been a utility to pass on a users comments.
To become the publish of a users comments with all the other laws that go with publication.
Want people to interact with the gov on social media? Thats the protection of a utility.

Re: ah yes, the old convergence politcal theory

[Aighearach]

Appeals to moral relativism isn't going to stop any patriotic American from killing nazis.

Absolutely guaranteed Due Process

[rahvin112]

I'm absolutely certain this system comes with the all the due process checks and balances necessary to ensure it's not abused by the wealthy and connected to punish those they disagree with.

In fact I'm absolutely sure it come with absolutely no due process whatsoever. Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list. This is one those tools the Chinese will use to abuse people who don't fall in line with the communist party or dare criticize the leadership.

Re:Absolutely guaranteed Due Process

[tomhath]

In fact I'm absolutely sure it come with absolutely no due process whatsoever. Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list.

There are no similarities with Guantanamo, that's only for foreign nationals who were caught engaging in terrorist activities or on the field of battle.

The No Fly List is a bit closer, but it's hard to make the case that having bad credit or smoking on a train is the same as being a suspected terrorist.

Re:Absolutely guaranteed Due Process

[argStyopa]

"Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list."
Actually, those both actually have a due process:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/0... as an example of the former.
and
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/pas... for the latter.

Re:Absolutely guaranteed Due Process

[drinkypoo]

In fact I'm absolutely sure it come with absolutely no due process whatsoever. Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list.

There are no similarities with Guantanamo, that's only for foreign nationals who were caught engaging in terrorist activities or on the field of battle.

The lack of due process is a distinct similarity. If the people in gitmo have committed crimes, why don't we charge them? If due process is a right, why don't these people have that right?

Re:Absolutely guaranteed Due Process

[Aighearach]

A suspected terrorist is innocent until proven guilty. When you called them a suspect, I already knew it is disputed and you haven't proven it yet according to the necessary process.

If we know for sure that the guy was really smoking on the train, he sounds like a proven terrorist to me. Give him the death penalty for intentionally putting other people's lives at risk.

Re:Absolutely guaranteed Due Process

[serviscope_minor]

There are no similarities with Guantanamo, that's only for foreign nationals who were caught engaging in terrorist activities or on the field of battle.

Apologist!

Guantanamo was for torturing foreign nationals who were suspected of terrorism. The mere accusation in the wrong place was enough to get you sentanced to a decade of torture.

But hey, it's OK, they were accused of *TERRORISM*.

Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps for

[Joe_Dragon]

Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps for people of groups like Falun Gong and others are put in them?

Maybe the whole world needs it!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs."

Maybe all countries need to have such a system to discourage bad behaviors/crimes & encourage good ones!!!

Is it really different than Driver License point system (which is really useful for common good of public!)?

Religious police

[Anonymous Coward]

They built a secular version of the religious morality police! Interesting to see how it plays out for them.

The implications are more interesting

[BigSlowTarget]

China must have tremendous confidence in its ability to suppress people to create common cause for 23 million people to hate the system. That big a number must contain a lot of capable people - and no doubt a bunch of mistakes. All of those now have a clear and undeniable focus for their rage and rebellion.

This sounds like a program likely to have unexpected results

Re:The implications are more interesting

[hoggoth]

You don't grasp the immense size of China's population. 23 million is a rounding error.

Even worse will be the chilling effect on the billions who must exhibit important behaviors such as 'paying off protection money to officials', 'allowing some sleazy shit local official to sleep with your wife or else', 'not being deferential enough to "important" people'

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Luckyo]

You're thinking in context of a free society built on Western model. China is not one, and context you're using for your conclusion simply doesn't apply.

For example, you're thinking that 23 million people here will have common cause. In reality, they will not. Instead, they will be motivated to backstab others so that they can climb back into party favour. We've seen this already in other communist states. You're also forgetting that 23 million is almost irrelevant by Chinese standards. This is a country that brutally oppressed hundreds of millions in Cultural Revolution to a far harsher degree and killed many tens of millions at the same time. Which strengthened the party and its grip on power in China, not weaken it as would have likely happened in a society built on Western model.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[doconnor]

If the number is 23 million, that is 1.8% of the population, although it might be less because there is probably a lot of overlap between the people barred from flights and barred from trains.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

23 million people unable to travel is a drop in the bucket to China. Heck, it's a drop in the bucket for America. There is a higher percentage of people in prision in America than there are Chinese people unable to travel by airplane or train. How close do you think Americans are to revolting against their government?

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Oswald McWeany]

You don't grasp the immense size of China's population. 23 million is a rounding error.

It's still about 2% of the population.

Here in the US there are 50 states, so the average state is 2% of the population of the US. This would be like everyone living in one average US state being denied certain rights.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Aighearach]

It is the same as 7 million people in the US.

If you take an anonymous poll of any population, you'll find that 25% disagree with almost everything. 5% take extreme and offensive positions. This is like, a smaller number than the number of Americans who support government-sponsored religion.

It is like worrying that cracking down on shoplifters might be unpopular, because there is so many of them.

For reference, the US gives out 41 million speeding tickets per year. It results in lots of poor-taste jokes about cops and traffic tickets, but the population doesn't come out in support of speeding! Nor are the people who got the tickets accused of "hating the system," though perhaps they do. Some of them might even be otherwise-capable people.

It seems reasonable to expect unexpected results from the Chinese experiment, but I disagree that the numbers you presented have value.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

So only about twice the rate of incarceration in the US? (0.91% in jail in the US)

Re:The implications are more interesting

[AHuxley]

People report other people. Thats the part most in the free West dont get.
Its not only a digital network of court, loan, banking and police reports.
Seen with the wrong brand by a person and get reported.
Say the wrong comment and a person can report that comment.
Reading the wrong books gets a report.
Publish the wrong comment online.
Talk about the freedom of Taiwan, the real China. Comment the wrong way in an online video.
Thats all going to get seen, reported and that then removes education, health care, housing, travel options.
Another method is making a person go to court for any reason to get the social credit lowered.
Any "finding" against the person under the Communist legal system lowers the social credit.
Lots of ways to report a person, to have their decades of travel, health care, housing, education, banking access removed.

The system in China is not as automated as presented.
Its also a reporting system that accepts reports on people by other people.
Everyone is an informer in a Communist nation.
The more information reported on people, the more a person can keep their own social credit in good standing with the Communist government.
That's access to better housing, better education, loans, travel, international travel, much better quality hotels, getting a passport, faster methods of domestic travel.
A system like the Stasi used but with real time results over many gov databases.
It follows hops of friends and family too. They all face losing all their professional standing, ability to get a loan, do banking, travel.
Any hint of anti Communist protest and its a lower credit score for everyone connected to that person.
Looking for work, advancement? The reported background information holds everyone reported back.
One person gets reported and that can alter the education, housing, health care, travel options of another person.
Get reported for reading about Taiwan, books from Japan, South Korea, talking to journalists, the history of Communism.
No freedom of speech. No freedom after reading. Dont get found with a funny bear cartoon.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Miamicanes]

> so the average state is 2% of the population of the US

And it's a perfect illustration of why "average" is such a misleading figure.

* Approximately 12% of Americans live in California... more Americans than live in the 20 states with the smallest populations.

* More than 25% of Americans call California, Texas, or Florida home.

* More than half of Americans live in just 9 states: California, Texas, Florida, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Ohio, Georgia, and North Carolina.

or... making it even more graphic...

There are more people whose hometown can be loosely described as "New York" or "Los Angeles" than the sum total populations of 35 entire states.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

They have tremendous confidence because there's only one way to stop this encroachment: kill those responsible. All of them. Utter bloodbath with no warning lest they be ready for it and take a trip out of the country just to be safe too.
That is literally the only way to prevent something like this, because they've already spent decades preparing and conditioning the population to accept it willingly, to turn on anyone who dares think it might be wrong. And it's not just china: Look at the USA, where rampant corruption and active, destructive environmental deregulation - stuff that has already cost lives - are defended by throngs of sycophants always repeating the same message: 'If you don't like it, wait a few more years and vote for another one of our buddies, and however you feel, violence is never the answer'. Always.

Without the strewn bodies of every single person pushing for such a system hung around publicly for their replacements to (temporarily) remember who they work for, there is literally nothing stopping it. Everyone that sits there thinking "if it's that bad we can just vote/protest and hope the next king also agrees" is quite literally helping ensure it cannot be removed. The one thing the monsters benefiting from these atrocities want to avoid is people fighting back, because that works.
It's like most other forms of abuse really; when has "please stop it hurts" ever made your rapist rethink their whole way of living, instead of just making him more erect? When has "we don't like it when you rob us at gunpoint" made the person holding a gun to your head and emptying your register suddenly become a good person? Why would "don't fight back, just let it happen" be any different just because it's on a wider scale?

As long as they can be relatively certain no one is willing to execute their families for what is being done, there's no incentive to ever stop. There never has been throughout history.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

This would be like everyone living in one average US state being denied certain rights.

You mean like residents of Puerto Rico being denied representation in Congress?

(AC because modding)

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise that ~0.7% of the US population is in jail/prison? And that another 1% - 1.5% is on parole?

Chinas 2% shouldnt feel wierd in comparison.

Re:The implications are more interesting

[Oswald McWeany]

So only about twice the rate of incarceration in the US? (0.91% in jail in the US)

As bad as that is, it doesn't make what China is doing "un-bad".

Aka Twitter & Facebook Social Score

[supercell]

If you post things they deem as politically divergent from their ideals you get a bad social platform score. Your post get higher "gravity". If you continue to post things against their ideology you get put in social media jail and eventually your get banished altogether.

Re:Aka Twitter & Facebook Social Score

[Anonymous Coward]

Same thing on the comments section of the New York Times.

Just a "21st century version" of ours

[MikeRT]

1. There is no concept in modern America of "did the time, paid for the crime" with regard to social attitudes and how ex-felons can be treated.
2. Say something "offensive" in public and watch a wild-eyed mob that makes a witch-burning look tame come after and try to make sure there is "no place in society" for you.
3. Now corporations are getting in on the act with Chase locking accounts because the person was a Badthinker(tm).

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Some of that stuff is unconstitutional, such as NY telling banks to watch their reputations serving gun makers, or they might find difficulty getting government contracts.

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[liquid_schwartz]

1. There is no concept in modern America of "did the time, paid for the crime" with regard to social attitudes and how ex-felons can be treated. 2. Say something "offensive" in public and watch a wild-eyed mob that makes a witch-burning look tame come after and try to make sure there is "no place in society" for you. 3. Now corporations are getting in on the act with Chase locking accounts because the person was a Badthinker(tm).

It's amazing how much it's changed. I recall as a kid people being able to say just about anything. It got thrown in the category of "say what you want it's a free country". People wouldn't agree, they might call you an idiot, but nobody would track you down and try and get you fired. Gotta love "progressive justice" as shown here: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/0...

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Ryanrule]

Maybe stop being a nazi then.

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Tablizer]

Say something "offensive" in public and watch a wild-eyed mob that makes a witch-burning look tame come after and try to make sure there is "no place in society" for you.

If you shout repeated ethnic slurs to the stranger next to you on the subway; sorry, but you deserve to have your clock cleaned by the crowd.

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing how much it's changed. I recall as a kid people being able to say just about anything.

Did you perhaps miss out on the 1960s? These things are fairly cyclic.

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Can'tNot]

That's just wildly untrue. "Don't ask, don't tell" is exactly the opposite of what you're describing, and that was an improvement over what came before it.

If you've never heard of someone getting fired for being an uppity negro then you live in a fantasy land. That was a commonplace thing for a long time, and probably still is in some places.

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen :-/

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Anonymous Coward]

Its the same shit that happened in China and other communist countries. Marxist ideology takes root in the younger generation, leading to a schism between generations.
Once such an ideology has deep enough roots in the individual, they loose touch with reality and see only through it as a lens distorting everything.
Its just hidden behind political correctness and social justice in the west, and less about class struggles, but their true face is no different than to a Maoist killing his parents because they didnt agree with communism.

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[liquid_schwartz]

That's just wildly untrue. "Don't ask, don't tell" is exactly the opposite of what you're describing, and that was an improvement over what came before it. If you've never heard of someone getting fired for being an uppity negro then you live in a fantasy land. That was a commonplace thing for a long time, and probably still is in some places.

Are you suggesting that a couple of percent being able to talk at work about their preferences is an improvement over tens of percent being silenced in all environments? That's a terrible trade, certainly not progress.

Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours

[Can'tNot]

... What? I said that "Don't ask, don't tell" was an improvement over what came before it. What came before it was a dishonorable discharge with a unique code which would permanently label you as gay to anyone who cared to look. In particular, any employers who were checking up on your background would see this and could exclude you for that reason.

Re:Positive remarks about the social credit system

[Anonymous Coward]

so what is china doing right, other than getting ready to take over the world.

We should make North Korea our new bitch. Just think of all the fun you could have with the nukes and missiles, just change where you point them.

Google too

[Kohath]

Google has been using this model for YouTube for over a year now. Twitter and Facebook too. Blacklists are back around the world as a way to exercise power.

Re:Google too

[TFlan91]

Slashdot too. I'm sitting high and mighty with an "Excellent" karma rating. Whatever that means.

Re:Google too

[Anonymous Coward]

I always post as AC, but I've noticed that most of my comments have been getting deleted for the past few weeks. Considering stopping posting, considering just not coming back here. Having optional logged in accounts is one thing, but this reputation/moderation thing is getting out of hand. The concept ruins everything it touches.

Re:Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps

[Anonymous Coward]

They're literally putting Uighurs in reeducation camps right now.

chinese no-fly list

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically this is the chinese version of the west's no fly list because it limits your travel based on the government's definition of good behaviour.

Re:Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps

[Anonymous Coward]

You're either being sarcastic or overlooking the current Muslim detention camps:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china-forced-labor-camps-uighurs.html

hmm

[cascadingstylesheet]

Normally I'm all for bashing China, but

Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.

Seeing how we use actual prison for #1 and #3, and are working on it for #2, maybe they aren't as harsh as they sound with this ...

Re:hmm

[drinkypoo]

Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.

Seeing how we use actual prison for #1 and #3, and are working on it for #2, maybe they aren't as harsh as they sound with this ...

Except China has literally executed people for cheating on their taxes (at least that's the pretext) and has imprisoned people for openly worshipping Jebus. So no. This social credit thing is for minor offenders. They still have labor camps, they still have death vans.

Mind you, the state of "justice" in the USA is poor, but don't imagine that it's better in China.

Re:hmm

[Oswald McWeany]

Normally I'm all for bashing China, but

Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.

Seeing how we use actual prison for #1 and #3, and are working on it for #2, maybe they aren't as harsh as they sound with this ...

Social Credit also falls if you say something that they have to censor. If you're social media friends with someone with a low score, your score falls too! (they want to discourage people from talking to anyone critical of the government). If you're connected to a server to play video games for a long time your social credit score falls too!

There are a lot of batshit ways your score can be ruined too. Crimes and debts are the big score movers- but there are other stupid reasons too! Being potentially banned from flying for having controversial friends and playing too many video games is pretty extreme.

Re:hmm

[AHuxley]

People report people and get rewarded for reporting more people.
Its not a loan, banking, police, court, education only legal system.
Get seen with the wrong brand, get seen publishing the wrong topics... thats going to be reported by other people.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Being potentially banned from flying for having controversial friends and playing too many video games is pretty extreme.
No one in china cares about that, it is about giving power to the system, or "The Party" - it just a way to oppress the populous - bad boy - i will lower your social score.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

And those are just the *unabusive* ways of dropping it.
Those in charge can easily tank your score whether directly or through a few false charges (adding a few hours here and there in the tally of your favorite MMOs even), and suddenly the journalist, or the political opponent, or the dissenter, or the witness who saw a bit of something, they're now bad bad citizens and problem "solves itself".

Re:Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps

[Anonymous Coward]

Camps already here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-detention-camp.html
"Work sets you free", again?
From wiki: "Detainees endure physical and mental torture to suppress dissident religious beliefs and separatist movements..."
 

Not could use, intend to use

[Anonymous Coward]

They say that they intend to use it for "spreading false information" a phrase they have already used to mean, saying things that make us look bad even if true.

pac man

[Anonymous Coward]

Crunch
  crunch
  crunch
  crunch
  crunch

It will be part of the 2020 democratic platform

[Anonymous Coward]

You know it will

Re:Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps

[Damnshock]

The sad truth is that it's already happening https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps

1984

[blind biker]

China is fast approaching the level of control that Orwell's 1984 describes. We're close to one security camera per citizen. Add total control of Internet, be it fixed or mobile, by the state, as well as total control of social media and payment, and you already have a system that is virtually impossible to escape from.

I am not fucking putting foot in the Peple's Republic of China. It jsut isn't happening.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not fucking putting foot in the Peple's Republic of China. It jsut isn't happening.

China will expand. Eventually you'll be in it.

Re:1984

[DNS-and-BIND]

Let's play a game. I will name one country where the US forced a "regime change" and you will name one country where China forced a regime change. Let's see who we should trust the least.

I'll start: Iraq. Half a million human beings died. Your turn.

Re:1984

[kaur]

Tibet comes first I guess?

Might also check this:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/...

Re:1984

[Targon]

You seem to believe that just because one government is horrible that you should then excuse other governments when they also do horrible things. The US government, or Chinese, or ANY government should be called out for doing horrible things, and just because people may live in one country or another should not make you assume that they approve or support horrible actions.

If the US Government does something wrong, then yes, say something, and do something, but don't point at the USA and then say that it is acceptable for the Chinese government to do something horrible because the US government also does horrible things.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I use Genghis Khan, who once controlled China, or is he disqualified as being Mongolian.
You will lose, guaranteed, by number of countries, people, land area, any possible measurement.

But I agree with your point and was one of the reasons for voting Trump, who not only promised to stop that nonsense, but is actively working on doing it. He is getting hell for withdrawing from Syria where Obama attempted regime change. Obama also forced regime change in Libya and Egypt.

Re:1984

[DNS-and-BIND]

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant from this century.

Funny you should mention Tibet, though. Did you know it was a religious dictatorship with real-live serfs? You hate religion, right? So why suddenly on the side of religious nutbags? They were overthrown and replaced with a government that put the people first. All the serfs were freed, children were educated in a common core curriculum where they were taught to view religion skeptically, and the government was officially atheist.

Re:1984

[DNS-and-BIND]

Clean up your own house before you criticize others. Stop bombing and invading other countries, is that so hard? You're gearing up to overthrow Venezuela while we speak. What the hell is wrong with you people? You go on about how China is so bad, and yet the worst are yourselves.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

They were overthrown and replaced with a government that put the people first.

Money quote. The only problem being, 'people' != Tibetans. Come to think of it, US interventions, this century and before, did the same - put the people first, just not the local people.

Now go ahead and tell us how China's repossession of Hong Kong "put the people first." We're waiting.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Voted Trump in and got rid of Obama already.
Done cleaning up, no more multiple wars in the Middle East started by Obama who refused to answer questions about it.

Nothing going on in Venezuela other than a dictator claiming we are invading, USA won't.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, those goalposts sure moved fast!

Re:1984

[thegreatbob]

Seems we came close to it, or at least demonstrated willingness to do so, back in the late 50s. Visit by then-VP Nixon did not go very well.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Strange you should mention 1984 when China is now the new enemy thanks to Steve Bannon. Always been at war with Eastasia...

Re:1984

[blind biker]

Whataboutism.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Good guess. It's wrong, though.

And that map...only one of those frames cover the PRC.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Hawaii. Your turn.

Re:1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah? What about it?

Dont buy an IPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if Trump can sign any kind of trade agreement, and then the Chineese will simply put negative social credit for any purchase of US goods.

DNC Supports the KKK

[Anonymous Coward]

Just remember, his party, the DNC, and what they currently support

KKK member Northam, gov of VA
Serial rapist, Fairfax lt gov of VA
Killing live born babies and calling it abortion
Preventing illegals from getting jail/deported for shooting and killing US citizens, Kate Stynley
And they want to make you a criminal if you eat a hamburger or fly on an airplane.

Now who is really extremists? I don't want them censored, I want everyone to keep hearing about what they support. No reasonable person supports the DNC at this point and they are continuing their downward spiral and speeding up.

Singapore's example

[tomhath]

Maybe China would be better off following Singapore's example. Transgressions like those described are punished by flogging.

Setting the record straight . . .

[sgt_doom]

Journalist, He Huifeng, has a very good article on this and contrary to what some posters here have falsely claimed, it has already been used to quiet dissenters, etc. It is most definitely structured for command and absolute control of the populace:
https://www.scmp.com/economy/c...

Funny from a progressive

[Anonymous Coward]

You argue that the companies control the government, but then say it's good that the same companies censor people you dislike, because it's not the government doing it. Your hypocrisy is rich.

Godwins Law

[nuckfuts]

You just lost the debate.

Re:Godwins Law

[Anonymous Coward]

Except... this is not Godwin's law this is actual fascist totalitarian behaviour with a genocidal bent.

Re:Godwins Law

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the two posts above you smart guy. Godwin's law doesn't apply if the people you're talking about are running concentration camps.

Fallacious thinking...

[Camel Pilot]

Wow. You use gross stereotyping and false assumptions when it suits you and can't debate the point with rational arguments

China is as communist as America is democratic.

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is to say neither really lives up to their own party's line.

And make no mistake each has one party in charge of the country.

Re:China is as communist as America is democratic.

[fish_in_the_c]

America has never claimed to be a democracy. Always a republic.
On the other hand China is much more of a totalitarian state.
No freedom of speech.
Pretend freedom of religion, that is something more like freedom of declared creed, so long is you are ok with punishment for your declaration.
No freedom of expression, No freedom to choose your own career or life.

Can someone from China Please explain why the communist have been allowed to stay it power so long.
( is it simply that they are very efficient and killing and dispersing dissenters?)

Re:China is as communist as America is democratic.

[Anonymous Coward]

The de facto gov't stays in power for a few reasons - here's some in my guesstimation:

1. Mainland China has gone from generalized extreme poverty to generalized moderate wealth. The people there see the gov't as being responsible for their current affluence and ability to put food on the table - therefore - the people there generally support the current state.

2. The gov't has the guns.

3. The media message is very much gov't censored and controlled on several levels. Moreover, having so much control of the message, the gov't has been able to conflate its brand of totalitarianism with the population's sense of nationalism.

4. Political inertia: the majority alive today in China have little/no experience of a working democratic republic. They are used to a totalitarian dictatorship. One doesn't miss what one's never had (and what the de facto gov't there makes sure one knows little about).

Re:China is as communist as America is democratic.

[Kyr Arvin]

4. Political inertia: the majority alive today in China have little/no experience of a working democratic republic. They are used to a totalitarian dictatorship. One doesn't miss what one's never had (and what the de facto gov't there makes sure one knows little about).

China has also basically been an imperial or totalitarian state for thousands of years. One shouldn't underestimate that level of ingraining acceptance of that government style in the culture.

Re:China is as communist as America is democratic.

[RhettLivingston]

That level of ingraining would not just be in the culture. Survival would favor those who are more passive and genetic selection would occur. Epigenetics would play a part too when traumas endured by parents are strong enough to turn on survival mechanisms whose activation is passed on to their children.

Re:China is as communist as America is democratic.

[Kyr Arvin]

That level of ingraining would not just be in the culture. Survival would favor those who are more passive and genetic selection would occur. Epigenetics would play a part too when traumas endured by parents are strong enough to turn on survival mechanisms whose activation is passed on to their children.

I don't think that's how genetics work. Events that happen as an adult are not passed genetically through offspring.

Re:China is as communist as America is democratic.

[RhettLivingston]

Not genetically, epigenetically. New stuff here. It is not the DNA itself being changed. Instead, regulatory molecules are being attached to the DNA.

We have discovered that our systems are capable of adapting to environmental stresses by sending a signal throughout the body that causes gene expression to be changed via mechanisms like DNA methylation and that those signals target sperm and eggs as well as the other body cells. We are finding that this is why things like PTSD are near impossible to reverse. The body has epigenetically forced defensive mechanisms into overdrive. People who then parent children after experience of this kind of trauma can then pass on the over-activation of those defenses. Several studies have shown this to be true and they have even identified some of the signals now and succeeded in blocking them in mice.

Once these changes in expression occur, it can take a few generations for them to be cleaned out of the offspring.

Re:China is as communist as America is democratic.

[Anonymous Coward]

Every democratic state was non-democratic until it became democratic. Taiwan is also Chinese, but it's democratic. Why should the Chinese people on the mainland be incapable of the same?

Unintended consequences

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, China has created a new Bitcoin market for blackmarket travel tickets.

The /. gods must have a sense of humor - the captcha word was 'railway'

I like it

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if there were a way to report the tourists abroad who deface, litter, or otherwise do not act appropriately

Re:Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps

[Aighearach]

You might want to research what happened to Falun Gong. You're about 20 years late to rescue them from being put in camps and turned into living organ banks. Not even exaggerating. Look it up.

Black Mirror

[Tulsa_Time]

Black Mirror - Season 3 Ep 1 - Nosedive

I can see it happening.

Four thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

0) Governments can decide what behaviors they are going to allow. They can do this righteously or malevolently, though they generally last longer if they do it righteously.

1) Any system for punishing those who misbehave can be implemented fairly, or it can be abused.

2) Given a righteous legal system with fairly implemented punishment, restricting people's access to high-speed public transportation seems like an interesting option and certainly would be less expensive than incarceration.

3) It might also be, on balance, better WRT recidivism, e.g. by not concentrating misbehavers in one place and exposing them to much worse misbehavior.

Not paying taxes, taking drugs, false information?

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump.
Trump.
Trump.

Already available

[Anonymous Coward]

> There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.

Yeah, one of the systems gives us a vote to change it and the other has no recourse, yet still holds near-monopoly status on our ability to communicate.

I don't get how you can NOT see it as related to net neutrality? The ISPs are private companies, too, but you'd never tell us that THEY have the right to censor what we can do on the internet, even though their infrastructure is also private property. Oh, but it's not *really* private, right, they have various easements and such from the government, yes? Well, if that's enough, then go look at the various federal contracts for Google & co. They have more than a little bit of federal involvement, including direct involvement with some of the censorship stuff.

So yeah, both parties are planning to censor us, one via the ISPs and one via Google/Twitter/etc. It's funny to see so many people root for one and hate the other, when BOTH of those stand read to screw over whichever side we ignore.....

Rise of Fred Rogers in China

[Anonymous Coward]

Foresee the rise of Fred Rodgers in China with most people singing "It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood" over and over smiling and doing only nice things to have a good social credit score.

Isn't this just a way to shave a fraction of a percent off of this type of behavior and add it to another type of behavior?

Re:Rise of Fred Rogers in China

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is this Fred Rodgers that you speak of? I am unfamiliar with him. I do, however, remember a Fred Rogers and his Neighborhood.

fellow travellers

[Anonymous Coward]

Uncanny resemblance to the comments section of the New York Times.

Great point

[SuperKendall]

Also a good way to convince the bad ones that they might as well *really* be bad because, heck, they've got nothing to lose.

I wonder about this also; if you are in a deep enough hole you may as well keep digging and see if you can reach the other side.

It cannot be good fo society as a whole to bottle up people's movements like this, forcing someone to stay in an area and get angrier and angrier about it... sounds like a really bad idea.

In a way we should all thank the Chinese for going so flat-out on this idea, because a lot of governments are agitating to do similar things but if the Chinese system runs into major issues it will prevent other governments from trying. On the other hand if they iron out the problems by force, and the system appears to work - it could be more likely to spread. :-(

i knew it

[Anonymous Coward]

another class system, and the free world stood by , it's leaders eagerly waiting to do the same.

Slashdotters (and China) have it all wrong...

[Anonymous Coward]

If only you could get past your visceral reaction and posting "China SUX" or "1984 is here" responses, try taking a deeper look at what this policy amounts to...

China's social credit system is about ranking people based on their social goodness/badness. On the surface, social goodies get real-world 'carrots' while social baddies get real-world 'sticks.' Looking a little deeper, see it for what it is -- in this particular case, a social goody gets the reward of being able to leave China (travel tickets) while a social baddy is stuck in China.

So in the long run, all of your best and brightest Chinese citizen will be able to get the hell out of China -- leaving China filled with the 'scum' of its citizenry. Now if that isn't communist thinking, I don't know what is. LOL.

Re:Slashdotters (and China) have it all wrong...

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, Communist countries traditionally haven't been big on letting their brightest and best leave the country. Sure, things have thawed, but it's kind of alien to their way of thinking.

Gov run socialist

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmmm good stuff

China...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is stars candy sunshine seashells and thunder all rolled into one

And here we are

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
-- George Orwell

Re:Positive remarks about the social credit system

[Kyr Arvin]

I know the Slashdot audience consists of a bunch of middle-aged, overweight, misogynistic, libertarian losers, can we please make some positive comments about what China is doing? I'm being dead, fucking serious. Thanks.

Maybe totalitarian regimes are hard to defend. I'm being dead, fucking serious.

That's not the purpose

[rsilvergun]

the purpose is to create a new caste system to replace the old ones that modern life are chipping away at.

In the US we've been using racism, but now that it's waning we're moving to SJWism and political divides. India still has it's caste system. Europe is divided along religion and nationality. Even Japan had a caste system (based on, I shit you not, the job you had, with "unclean" jobs being at the bottom caste).

The goal is always the same: break the working class into manageable chunks that right among themselves so the ruling class can take all the power and money. The part that irritates me is that after hundreds of years of modern history nobody seems to pick up on this trick.

most stories on the so-called system are crap

[Cipheron]

An actual article with some proper research:
https://www.wired.co.uk/articl...

If you read to the bottom of the current article, and cross-reference with other articles, you can see the point is that some people who have defaulted on their taxes or other debts can be barred by a court-order from buying first-class train tickets or booking flights. They're still able to travel economy-class. This is a power wielded by lower-level local courts and doesn't actually have much if any actual connection with the *social* credit system or score whatsoever. TL;DR: the level of reporting on this matter is below terrible, creating a massive confusion about what is and isn't even the social-credit system. There is no social-credit scoring used in these current decision *whatsoever*, merely that you've been declared in default of your existing financial obligations by a court.

Boycott China

[mapkinase]

Speak up every time some puff piece mentions China.

fighting the pointless fight

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha too many holes in the dyke not enough fingers

Is there a limit or can you go for high score?

[Dirk Becher]

Professional gaming China style.

After 7 years you no longer have to report

[rsilvergun]

a criminal record, and except for the most extreme cases (rape, child molestation, murder) it won't show up in background checks. Well, except for one other thing, which is defrauding banks. That shit follows you for life because you do not fuck with the ruling class. Still, for relatively minor infractions it won't follow you forever.
br> I don't see a lot of wide eyed mobs making no place in society if the person shows some self awareness and contrition. Neeson just went and told everyone that at one point in his life he went around looking for a black person to kill because a friend of his was victimized by a black person. The story went nowhere because he realized what he did was wrong and owned it. Where folks get shut down is if there's decades of bad behavior (usual sexual harassment), often recent and with a weak, token apologies.

I couldn't find the Chase account lock reference you made, can you provide links? I'd like context.

That said, we could we do with a bit more forgiveness in society. Folks like Bernie Sanders & Liz Warren are pushing legalizing drugs so that you're not put on what are effectively watch lists for a little pot, broader criminal justice reforms and above all federal jobs programs so that nobody, and I mean _nobody_ is shut out of the economy. Those are the kinds of practical steps we need. Basically, we need a society where, even if everybody hates your guts, you're guaranteed food, shelter, healthcare and education. That's where real freedom comes from.

SOCK PUPPET ALERT!

[Anonymous Coward]

udachny is a sock puppet of roman_mir. the latter uses the former to try to convince more people that the foundational principles of his cult are righteous and sane. they both often post at -1 (and have their postings limited here on slashdot) because they have poor karma scores here as a result of repeated abusive behavior and their consistent religious proselytizing that is seldom on topic with the discussion thread. don't let him convince you that his doctrine would actually benefit you, or even result in him being less offensive.

travel

[Farton]

I've never been to China and I don't plan to yet. If we talk about travel, I have already bought tickets to Egypt for me and my wife. In a week we will relax on the sandy beach and drink fresh cocktails. You knew that the beach season starts in Egypt in March, so this month is the best time to visit egypt https://rove.me/to/egypt. Don't waste time!