Decade-Long Study: Measles Vaccine Doesn't Cause Autism, Even in High-Risk Kids (reuters.com)

The measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine isn't associated with an increased risk of autism even among kids who are at high risk because they have a sibling with the disorder, a Danish study suggests. From a report: Concerns about a potential link between the MMR vaccine and autism have persisted for two decades, since a controversial and ultimately retracted 1998 paper claimed there was a direct connection. Even though subsequent studies haven't tied inoculation to autism, fear about the risk has weighed on parents so much in several communities across Europe and the U.S. that vaccination rates have been too low to prevent a spate of measles outbreaks.

In the current study, researchers examined data on 657,461 children. During this time, 6,517 kids were diagnosed with autism. Kids who got the MMR vaccine were seven percent less likely to develop autism than children who didn't get vaccinated, researchers report in the Annals of Internal Medicine. "Parents should not skip the vaccine out of fear for autism," said lead study author Dr. Anders Hviid of the Statens Serum Institut in Copenhagen, Denmark. "The dangers of not vaccinating includes a resurgence in measles which we are seeing signs of today in the form of outbreaks," Hviid said by email.

Comments

But don't worry

[Opportunist]

The idiots will find a new reason to avoid vaccinations. If anything fails, the study will be dismissed as fake from the pharma industry.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Socialism is a good thing. The quality of life enjoyed by scandinavian, western european and canadian citizens are far higher than american citizens. Just because Venezuela failed doesn't mean the majority of western civilisation has failed.

Re:But don't worry

[MightyMartian]

But they don't have a right to endanger other people. If you don't want your kids vaccinated, they shouldn't be allowed in public schools (or heck, probably most private ones), or anywhere else where other children or immune-compromised people congregate. Your freedom to be a complete moron and endanger your own children should not extend to giving you the liberty to cause harm to others.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

These "idiots" have every right to raise their children as they see fit.

No they don't. Parents don't have absolute rights over their children, at least not in any civilised country I'm aware of and that includes unfortunately even the lousy (by human standards) US of A.

Re:But don't worry

[Alci12]

What about the rights of the child not to die is be severely disabled by their parents negligence

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

The idiots are putting their children's lives at risk, as well as risking the lives of others who can't get vaccinated for real medical reasons. I am usually against government intervention, but in cases like this I support it.

Re:But don't worry

[jellomizer]

I can overgeneralize too.
This is unlike the idiots and politicians that claim, that Climate Change is a Hoax, that the Earth is actually flat, and evolution is the work of the Devil. Oh, and unrestricted capitalism to an already corrupt corporate environment is a "good thing" to the nation.

Re:But don't worry

[jeff4747]

Not when these idiots are putting my children at risk via their decisions.

Re:But don't worry

[shilly]

No, they really don't. They're not free to abuse, rape, torture, starve their children, for example. It's not obvious they ought to be free to withhold vaccination and put their children in danger, either.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Scandinavian countries are capitalist, not socialist. Same for Canada and W. European countries.

Re:But don't worry

[Z80a]

Those examples are capitalist countries with social programs.
Pure socialism will always fail because it don't handle the white elephant in the room, that is the part where humans are sadly programmed to form kingdoms, and unless you have a system that stops it (like capitalism does by promising everyone the chance to be the king but makes it horribly hard with competition), the system instantly collapse into some sort of kingdom, and those just suck.
Just look at how your average joe think everything is handled by the president.

Re:But don't worry

[Joce640k]

They're blend, I think you'll find. Captalist with some socialist policies mixed in.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

You know that the UK, Denmark, Norway, & the Netherlands are kingdoms, don't you?

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind that MMR has been proven to cause autism over and over in court. Settlements were paid by big pharma. Thousands of parents have watched their children go downhill right after such injections and the CDC acknowledged on their own website that certain people react very poorly to adjuvants in the vaccine. Not only that but HALF of the researchers who create the vaccines are very concerned with ingredients going into the vaccines, such as human and animal DNA, not to mention the adjuvants which have been conclusively proven to cause issues.

I am not saying to avoid vaccines but there is more than cause for concern.

Re:But don't worry

[Joce640k]

That's not the reason socialism fails. Socialism fails because it rewards non-achievers the same as the achievers.

When non-achievers get the same rewards as the achievers then everybody stops making an effort. It starts at mediocrity and goes downhill from there.

Re:But don't worry

[Joce640k]

The idiots will find a new reason to avoid vaccinations. If anything fails, the study will be dismissed as fake from the pharma industry.

Ummm, the pharma industry is in favor of vaccines.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ok, the anti-vaxers are a dying breed.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesnâ(TM)t endanger other children, since they are themselves vaccinated.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Didnâ(TM)t you vaccinate your children?

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

But they can drive their children somewhere in a car - say, to get vaccinated. And the probability of a child be severely harmed, in a developed nation, is much higher from the car ride than from not being vaccinated.

Re: But don't worry

[MightyMartian]

Except those that can't be. We rely upon 90%+ of people to be vaccinated to protect the minority who, for specific reasons cannot be. For chrissakes, this isn't news. We've known about the notion of herd immunity for well over a century. This is as established a branch of science as one can get.

Re:But don't worry

[MightyMartian]

I'm sorry. I got tripped up by your blatant non sequitur.

Re: But don't worry

[jeff4747]

They can only get each vaccine when they are old enough, and many vaccines require multiple doses spread out over years. Eventually they'll be fully vaccinated, but eventually isn't today.

Also, vaccines are about 95% effective. We rely on herd immunity to protect the roughly 5% where the vaccine does not "take". My kids may be the unlucky 5% for some particular disease that an anti-vaxxer's snowflake gives them.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Vaccines are not 100% effective, and there are true legitimate medical reasons some people can not get vaccinated. For both reasons it is very important to have herd immunity. By not vaccinating you really are putting people besides yourself at risk.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Every capitalist country has some socialist policies mixed in (like public education). The problem is when they become socialist countries with some capitalism mixed in, which is what the "Socialist Democrats" want.

Re:But don't worry

[MightyMartian]

Nope. I'm not. I'm ready to use the power of the state to keep those kids out of schools or anywhere else where they can cause harm. I don't advocate removing parents' rights as guardians of their children, but I'm fully on board for making those parents feel the consequences of their actions.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they do in the USA. What country are you living in China?

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe race and ethnicity have something to do with that. Hmmm...

Re:But don't worry

[gnick]

There is very convincing evidence linking childhood vaccinations with irreversible cases of adulthood.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

No Ayn Rand - Communism so far has demonstrably failed because people are greedy and you never get equal reward to everyone.

Re:But don't worry

[gtall]

Ah, Rand Paul is already on the case, sez it infringes on individuals' rights to endanger their fellow Americans.

Re: But don't worry

[ShanghaiBill]

But they can drive their children somewhere in a car - say, to get vaccinated.

In many countries, the vaccines are given at school, not by parents driving individually to doctors' offices.

And the probability of a child be severely harmed, in a developed nation, is much higher from the car ride than from not being vaccinated.

This is only true if most people vaccinate.

Re: But don't worry

[gtall]

If I recall correctly, kids cannot get the measles vaccine until they are about 1 yr. old. Until they get it, they are relatively unprotected.

Re:But don't worry

[Z80a]

That maybe would happen if the system lasted long enough, but it generally don't.

Re:But don't worry

[jeff4747]

That's not the reason socialism fails. Socialism fails because it rewards non-achievers the same as the achievers.

Please point to an actual "socialist" country that actually rewards everyone the same.

That's not a "no true Scottsman" about socialism. It's demonstrating that your theory lacks evidence.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Who's going to tell that to the socialist parties in Europe who have been part of the governments in most of those countries for the better part of the years since WW2?

Re: But don't worry

[jeff4747]

Vaccines are about 95% effective (varies by vaccine). We rely on herd immunity to protect the roughly 5% where the vaccine does not take.

Re:But don't worry

[ShanghaiBill]

Ummm, the pharma industry is in favor of vaccines.

That is only because they want people to live long enough to get more profitable afflictions like cancer and heart disease.

Re: But don't worry

[jeff4747]

Herd immunity isnt âoescienceâ

Uh...yeah, it is. It's a major part of the sciences of biology and public health, backed by experiments. That's why we know what percentage of a population has to be vaccinated for herd immunity to be effective.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

The failures of socialism can't be summed up in to truisms or slashdot posts.

Really, its a number of very complex factors that ultimately lead to grossly inefficient use of resources. Free market capitalism leads to more productivity, more wealth in the hands of more people, and better outcomes across the board. (The staggering decrease in world poverty in the past few decades proves this quite clearly)

It's not a panacea though. Free market capitalism has some blind spots that need to be covered - But the general idea that the productivity gains are so good that such cases are easy to pay for.

People who advocate for socialism have good intentions in their hearts (Tankies and dictator apologists notwithstanding) but don't understand that good intentions don't necessarily lead to good outcomes.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you mean communism?

There are many socialist countries out there that have been socialist for a long long time without failing. I hail from one of them, perhaps you have heard of it, it's called "Australia". Other socialist countries include Canada, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, New Zealand, many many countries in Europe, etc.

Reading Atlas Shrugged does not qualify you to speak about socialism if you still don't understand what it is. Perhaps you should save your comments to topics you are knowledgeable about.

Re: But don't worry

[lgw]

You know that the UK, Denmark, Norway, & the Netherlands are kingdoms, don't you?

Funniest post all week. I live the fact that the Queen can just murder someone who annoys her, or nuke Canada on a whim, with no legal repercussions whatsoever. And it's a testament to her character that she doesn't abuse her power.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Looks like it worked out for Austria. The socialist party was pretty much constantly part of the government since WW2 and Vienna (the capital) has had a socialist mayor since WW2 and has been topping Mercer's highest quality of living for the past years (i.e. since Mercer's been doing it).

And looking down the list of cities, I get to see Austria, Switzerland, New Zealand, Germany, Canada, Denmark, Netherlands, .... you have to go down to place 30 to find the first US city. Which is San Francisco. I may be wrong, but I don't see a single US city from a traditionally Republican run state in the first 50 at all.

Re: But don't worry

[Opportunist]

What is "pure socialist"? Communism? Then call it communism, because that's what it is.

It seems there is some conflation of socialism and communism in the US narrative.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Communism, not socialism, fails because people prefer having money to working.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true, they want to give vaccines without hours of them being born. (fyi, I have multiple children)

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Overgeneralize? How so?

Wasn't it this stupid "study" of how vaccines cause autism that was the excuse to keep kids susceptible to all kinds of preventable diseases? What's the new excuse now?

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

That also assumes that everybody is the same, and are motivated only by material rewards. That, of course, is absolutely not true.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Not if that endangers other children.

Or do I have the right to raise my kid to be a murderous psychopath if I so please? Yes, he'll cap your spawn when he gets the chance, but don't I have the right to raise my kids the way I see fit?

Re: But don't worry

[Agent0013]

But the large number of vaxxers are causing harm. It has been discovered that many of the outbreaks recently, like the Disney one, are not wild strains. If the vaxxers were not pushing their harm, there would have been no outbreak at all. And the un-vaccinated that got infected there can blame the irresponsible pro-vaxxers and their infected children for putting their children into harms way.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Unfortunately we, as a society, are too civilized to simply say "no" when they come begging for a cure when they got the disease that the vaccine could have prevented.

Re: But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Probably because people spend more time in cars than getting vaccinated. If you want to skew statistics, at least do it in a less obvious way.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Of course they are. That doesn't make the study a forgery, though.

Even though I'm not that sure that there's more money in preventing diseases than there is in curing them. I mean, are you going to pay 1000 bucks for a vaccination?

How about a cure for the disease that might kill you?

I know what I'd more easily be convinced to pay a grand for.

Re:But don't worry

[drinkypoo]

Unfortunately we, as a society, are too civilized to simply say "no" when they come begging for a cure when they got the disease that the vaccine could have prevented.

Even if we put all the anti-vaxxers in one of the shitty states and built a wall around it, it would still benefit us to reduce illness in that neighboring area because walls don't work, and they would still be able to spread illness into our land.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

So ... not killing Pauly endangers America, I did get that right?

Re:But don't worry

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Russian troll stirring dissent and chaos. L2Slashdot

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Ask some experts from the GDR. With today's technology, and provided you don't have a problem to shoot a few anti-vaxxers, that should prove near perfect.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Havenâ(TM)t they concluded that anti-depressant use during pregnancy is the major cause of autism? Makes sense that crazy ass bitches then blame vaccinations for their chemical crutch making their kids autists.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

So what your saying that there would still be kids in schools that are unvaccinated? You want to force parents to keep them from sending them to school to not infect the kids already in the school that are not vaccinated. If you are already vaccinated you don't need to fear getting infected. So it really wouldn't matter. Your argument is not very logical.

Re: But don't worry

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

The math is well understood. Vaccines aren't 100% effective, so you need a certain large fraction of the population immunized so new outbreaks die off faster than they spread. And for the unvaccinated this still applies even if it was 100% effective.

This study shows there is no valid health concern. Rather than worry about profiteering drug companies charging a few tens of dollars, worry about profiteering talking heads disdaining vaccines charging tens of dollars for their book on TV and the Internet.

Re:But don't worry

[MightyMartian]

No, I'm saying there are certain people who CANNOT be vaccinated, and when herd immunity has been achieved, those people are protected because everyone else around them has been vaccinated.

Re:But don't worry

[MightyMartian]

Ah, misrepresentation of science, the hallmark of the antivaxxer.

Re:But don't worry

[amorsen]

The cynicism is strong in this one!

Re:But don't worry

[ewibble]

Pure anything will always fail (technically everything will fail eventually), In pure capitalism there is no idea of fairness, the rich will just acquire more power, until the people revolt. It is about striking balance between allowing people to become successful through their efforts, and ensuring fairness, and providing safeguards if something wrong.

Also it is just semantics saying "Those examples are capitalist countries with social programs." you could equally say "Those examples are socialist countries with capitalist programs.", no country in the world is completely capitalist or socialist.

Re:But don't worry

[Nidi62]

DNC doesn't have a right to fight a border wall. When 49,000 US citizens are violently attacked by illegals every year, a wall is common sense, sanctuary cities need to be punished for protecting criminals.

In 2013 there were 73,505 firearm related injuries and 33,636 deaths. GOP doesn't have a right to fight gun control. When 107,000 US citizens are violently attacked with firearms every year, gun control is common sense.

Re:But don't worry

[es330td]

This is a survey that scores a community in large part upon its level of public services, said services being almost the definition of a welfare state. Should it be any surprise that a city in a welfare state country or welfare state in the United States score high on that list?

If I made a survey of cities based upon freedom of activity, low tax burden and lack of government restriction and oversight not one of those cities would make the list. I know in which group I would rather live.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I checked, a jury decision didn't qualify as scientifically valid proof.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if they cannot be vaccinated then they belong in the same category as the kids that are not vaccinated. Keep them out of the schools by force. You can't play favorites when the health of the public is at stake.

Re:But don't worry

[thegarbz]

If anything fails, the study will be dismissed as fake from the pharma industry.

The industry which manufactures vaccines would dismiss a study which would increase their sales? Either you are getting your anti-{insert_outrage_of_the_day} confused, or you just had a stroke and should see a doctor.

Re:But don't worry

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

Dammit! Think of the children!

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow you can't fucking read at all, can you?
Seriously, what part of "nonmeasles rash," "imported measles cases," and "a 15-month-old child " are so hard to understand?

For those who can't be chuffed to read it, the study this joker linked to is about a single kid in Alberta who developed an unrelated rash and had measles antibodies in his urine because he had just been vaccinated and how the physicians ruled out that he was a victim of the wild measles outbreak.

Re:But don't worry

[tomknight]

Thanks for the second article/link, it really helps this sort of discussion.

As you've bothered to cite it I dare say you've read it though and agree with it. The last paragraph was particularly helpful. It starts with:

"Given the effectiveness of the MMR vaccine in eliminating both measles and rubella, and the highly infectious nature of these diseases, high vaccination coverage is essential. The diseases that the vaccines are preventing are not benign and vaccination can eliminate many of the serious sequelae of these infections"

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

If I made a survey of cities based upon freedom of activity, low tax burden and lack of government restriction and oversight not one of those cities would make the list. I know in which group I would rather live.

Let's have a think about cities that qualify on the basis of your list, shall we?
Aden; Mogadishu; Kinshasa; Ashgabat; Lagos; Dhaka; Tripoli -- all of them have a low tax burden, lack government restrictions and oversight, and allow you great freedom of activity. Why, they are even freer than your very own top US cities: after all, it's much easier to find yourself a child prostitute in one of these cities than in Houston, and you can act with impunity.

So why don't you fuck off to Kinshasa and live there for a year and wank on to the locals about the benefits of no government interference? They could do with a laugh, in between being shot at by militias.

Re:But don't worry

[DNS-and-BIND]

There's no true socialist country to point to. Not one exists today. It used to be Venezuela, but now that the wheels have fallen off the narrative is that Venezuela isn't socialist and never was. Odd, for a country that Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders both called proof positive that socialism could be made to work.

Re:But don't worry

[shilly]

Mate. No true Scotsman was a joke, not something to emulate.

Re:But don't worry

[pastafazou]

And yet, we have this story from just a few months ago: https://www.ageofautism.com/20... Do vaccines work? Yes. Are they safe? For most, yes. However, some people have had adverse reactions, including death, after a vaccine shot: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/b... Why is it assumed that vaccines are 100% safe for everyone? I can eat a bag of peanuts, but some people can die from just a trace of peanut. Why wouldn't vaccines be the same? Also, vaccines contain some toxic chemicals. I know the levels in an individual vaccine shot should be safe, but how about when a doctor administers multiple vaccines at once? Here's a list of vaccine ingredients: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/p... Then we have stories like this: https://www.news-medical.net/n...

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

2nd amendment, read it.

Missed the one giving illegals the right to cross illegally, shoot US citizens like Kate Steinle, and then be protected by sanctuary city laws and never punished for it. That's right, an illegal shot and killed a US citizen, still free on the streets of SF without getting a criminal conviction, but all of us who try and protect ourselves from thugs like this are the bad guys.

What do you expect from people who defend making it legal to kill live born babies?

Re:But don't worry

[shilly]

Why not? Choices have consequences.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of interest, how do you keep things in your mind, when it's so open that the wind whistles straight through from one ear to the other?

Re: But don't worry

[Opportunist]

And to think that the rest of the US is even worse!

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

So do I.

Do you know what no government restriction and oversight is called? Anarchy.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you walked the streets of San Francisco recently?

Yes I have.

Theyâ(TM)re covered in human excrement.

No they're not.
San Francisco has a big problem with the homeless population. And yes, human waste. It's something you can find if you're looking for it, but it's rare to just come across it.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

From, not by.

Re: But don't worry

[desdinova 216]

I didn't see any reports related to that from a non-Anti Vax site.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiots should start being sued for assault/manslaughter if they spread preventable diseases (MMR, STD's, HIV, Hep-C, etc)

Eg,

If someone has not been vaccinated against measles, gets measles, and spreads it to anyone, automatic assault charge. If anyone dies, manslaughter.

Your conviction is so strong that vaccines are bad, then you won't mind paying for the social cost of being a biological weapon.

Re:But don't worry

[Z80a]

Indeed.
The key here is to be wise enough to do what need to be done, instead of holding so hard to your ideology you prefer to see people starve than cave in.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Ayup, fortunately anti-vaxers have a 100% mortality rate. So they will die out, eventually.

Re:But don't worry

[Nidi62]

2nd amendment, read it.

I have, and also own 4 handguns, a shotgun, and 2 rifles. In literally the 1st 3 words of the Amendment are the words "well regulated". There are multiple common sense and reasonable controls that could be put on firearm ownership without infringing on the ability to own firearms, as I have laid out in Slashdot numerous times. Mandatory initial and recurring training provided by local governments (funded by a nominal tax on ammunition and of course the NRA-surely they of all people gladly would support training firearm owners in proper firearm storage, handling, operation, and relevant laws, yes?) would be a great start. More rigorous reporting and administration of background checks. And in an important but tangential action, substantive improvements to mental health treatment in the US.

Re:But don't worry

[jwdb]

It's better to let Socialism criticize itself by pointing out that there are no successful implementations of it

Same's true of capitalism - there's no successful implementation of pure capitalism either, and it's had quite a number of notable failures, for instance the Great Recession, Great Depression, Robber Baron period, etc...

Pure ideologies rarely succeed. So far the most successful societies have been blends.

and there are many failed implementations that have killed millions of people.

Citation needed - examples of this showing that socialism was the cause of the deaths.

Feel free to point out an "actual" Socialist country and we'll point out how it isn't Socialist.

Ditto for capitalism/free market.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

my god you are a fucking idiot

Re:But don't worry

[jeff4747]

It's hard to criticize Socialism when there are no actual Socialist countries.

No, it's very, very easy to do.

What's hard to do is make a statement like "socialism always leads to _______ because of _______". Because we lack any actual trials.

There's lots of individual socialist policies that have been proven extremely effective. Single-payer healthcare. Fire departments. Police departments. Military protection. Property insurance of all types. And so on. Those have not lead to the calamities predicted above.

So in the absence of any test cases, the claim that that previous poster made doesn't have any real-world support.

Re:But don't worry

[Areyoukiddingme]

No, I'm saying there are certain people who CANNOT be vaccinated, and when herd immunity has been achieved, those people are protected because everyone else around them has been vaccinated.

This is one facet of the argument in favor of vaccination. There's considerably more to it than just that.

Vaccines aren't 100% effective for all the people who can receive them. For whatever reason their immune systems don't produce the necessary antibodies, or don't produce them in sufficient quantities, despite getting the same vaccine that's effective in most everyone else.

In addition, even a person who responded normally and produced the usual density of antibodies can still contract a disease for which they've been vaccinated if exposed to an infectious active case of the disease if their immune system is temporarily compromised, due to such things as lack of sleep or poor diet.

And finally, some normally vaccinated people with normal immune system response to the vaccination and a nominally healthy immune system will still contract the disease if exposed to an infectious active case of it. Their immune system response just gets overwhelmed. This is especially true of young children who don't have a fully mature immune system to begin with.

So there are four separate cohorts of people who are vulnerable but are being protected by herd immunity, which is preventing active infectious cases from arising at all. The difference between active cases and merely endemic exposure is considerable in a fully vaccinated population.

Re:But don't worry

[Calydor]

I've always liked this simple version of what you just said: "Your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose."

Re:But don't worry

[jeff4747]

It used to be Venezuela

Nope. People got paid differently based on their job. There were still rich and poor with wildly different incomes.

There has never actually been a socialist country. Largely because socialism does not scale well as a complete governing philosophy.

Which means saying "socialism always leads to _______ because ______" can't really be supported. We haven't tried, because it's just unworkable to try.

That being said, socialist policies seem to be extremely effective in some areas, and don't lead to the predicted disasters. Such as insurance, fire departments, police departments, military protection, roads, and so on.

Re:But don't worry

[Merk42]

2nd amendment, read it.

I have, and also own 4 handguns, a shotgun, and 2 rifles. In literally the 1st 3 words of the Amendment are the words "well regulated".

That's not what "well regulated" meant in 1791.... but we'll also be hypocrites and use the modern day meaning of "arms".

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you even read your own links!!!!

It completely disproves you own false belief about Disney.

"While the attenuated virus can be detected in clinical specimens following immunization, it is understood that administration of the MMR vaccine to immunocompetent individuals does not carry the risk of secondary transmission to susceptible hosts"

BTW the Disney strain was in reality a wild strain genotype B3 from the Philippines

Here is a better link. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6406a5.htm?s_cid=mm6406a5_w

"The source of the initial Disney theme park exposure has not been identified. Specimens from 30 California patients were genotyped; all were measles genotype B3, which has caused a large outbreak recently in the Philippines, but has also been detected in at least 14 countries and at least six U.S. states in the last 6 months (1)."

But really look at those articles you posted. They prove that no one is hiding anything. The are a realistic public scientific studies showing the measles vaccine has a very low chance of have side effects. Just because it is news to anti-vaxers does not make it a conspiracy.

Re:But don't worry

[Jason Levine]

Kids who cannot be vaccinated due to medical issues (immune system disorder) are different than kids who weren't vaccinated due to the mother reading a stupid Facebook post. The former relies on the vaccinated kids to survive (herd immunity). The latter weakens herd immunity because they could have been vaccinated.

Re:But don't worry

[Nidi62]

2nd amendment, read it.

I have, and also own 4 handguns, a shotgun, and 2 rifles. In literally the 1st 3 words of the Amendment are the words "well regulated".

That's not what "well regulated" meant in 1791.... but we'll also be hypocrites and use the modern day meaning of "arms".

Well, in 1791 that meant everyone would show up with their own guns at the town square every couple weeks and go through military drills, which revolves back to my argument that regular firearm training should be a mandatory component of firearm ownership.

Re:But don't worry

[ImprovOmega]

Your links don't show what you claim. Is this a troll or a deliberate misinformation campaign?

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

nuke Canada on a whim

To be honest, don't we all want to be able to do that?

Re:But don't worry

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

I have to wonder...

Concerns about a potential link between the MMR vaccine and autism have persisted for two decades, since a controversial and ultimately retracted 1998 paper claimed there was a direct connection.

Where were all these skilled Internet surfing parents "concerned about lying drug companies and their profits" when the originator of the autism link had deals with lawyers to find something they could sue over...beforehand?

Re:But don't worry

[sarkeizen]

How the outbreak in Disney was not a wild strain.

Are you trolling? Disneyland outbreak was genotype B3. http://outbreaknewstoday.com/p...

Since I know pro-vaxxers won't do any research on their own, rather relying on the supposed experts to tell you what to believe, here is a link for you. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]

Yeah, someone got genotype A measles unsurprising considering the billions of shots that have been given. The idea that this could be responsible for outbreaks involved a catastrophic misunderstanding of science. See even if you shed genotype A. It's still vaccine strain, the likely case for someone who encounters it in sufficient quantity is - vaccination.

Another link for the unbelievers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]

This simply looks at post hoc ER visits. Not actual events.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Gun control so only criminals have them? And criminals will know there will be nobody to stop them?

Re: But don't worry

[ImprovOmega]

No, GP literally means that the specific car ride to take your child to the doctor to get vaccinated (or on any one given day to take them to school) is more likely to be dangerous to them than the vaccine is. This is because the odds of getting in an injurious car crash are relatively high compared to the incidence of serious injury from a vaccine.

Some basic googling shows that the approximate odds of getting in a car crash on a 10-mile drive for someone 30-39 years old is approximately 1:111,000. The odds of a measles vaccine causing serious complications (encephalopathy) is somewhere between 1:87,000 and 1:365,000 (from a 1981 and 2007 study respectively). So, his statement is actually quite reasonable. And if it's much more than 10 miles to the doctor, then it's almost certain there's a higher risk from the drive.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

so.... you're for banning fast-food restaurants, cars, airplanes, knives etc - because someone might get harmed?

We also need to ban all abortions too, since at least one person dies during the procedure...

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Constitutional rights versus lawbreaking. Congress doesn't have the right to infringe on a Constitutional right, they have a responsibility to protect the nation from invaders. Big difference.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Read Heller vs DC
You might learn something and stop sounding stupid when you post.

But it sounds like you prefer women and the elderly to be killed/raped/robbed from illegals. Meanwhile you supporting killing babies. Everyone should also note when the GOP proposed illegals attempting to get guns be reported to ICE, the DNC lost their shit and literally screamed at their members who agreed with that amendment. Yep, DNC doesn't want legal citizens to have guns to defend themselves, but you better not get in the way of an illegal getting one (I am not making this shit up)

I've heard you can learn a lot about someone by how they treat the weakest in society. From how you seem to want to treat them, you are pretty much the worst of the worst. Congratulations. You have failed completely on moral/ethical grounds. You must be proud of yourself.

Re:But don't worry

[Nidi62]

Gun control so only criminals have them? And criminals will know there will be nobody to stop them?

Gun control does not equal gun confiscation or elimination.

Re: But don't worry

[FuzzyDaddy2]

The difference is density. Children who cannot be vaccinated represent a small enough density of any local population to not seriously impact herd immunity. Non vaxing communities do not, as we are learning.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

They have as much right to not vaccinate their children because of non-medical reasons, as I have to cover myself in peanut dust and walk around a public school.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny that one of the attributes sources for the anti-vax junk is the inability to assess dangers. Let's take a look at the numbers presented here: "1 out of 168" = 0.0059. Now let's look at the supposed bad accounting "less than 1%" = 0.01. Funny, isn't it?

Re:But don't worry

[Darinbob]

And we have no politicians in the US advocating for Venezuelan style socialism. We do have some wanting more socialist policies similar to that in Scandinavia. The mass hysteria on the right against some prominent politicians is just silly; No one is abolishing capitalism, no one is banning hamburgers, and no one has an agenda to make your children gay. For every delusional person you can point to on the left there is also a delusional person you can point to on the right.

The New Deal was essentially a socialist policy and it pulled us out of the Great Depression when the prior solutions had been failing. Social Security and Medicare are socialist policies backed by a large majority in the US (and yes, they need some fixing).

The problem is that we've got a political system based upon divisiveness today. Everyone politician is anti something, usually anti-the-other-side. Finding common ground is considered a traitorous act. Compromise is a dirty word. But a mere thirty years ago it was still considered a good thing to reach across the aisle, and moderates were seen as the intelligent voices who made things work.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this is talking past each other. Most countries give SOME vaccines at birth (e.g. Hep. B., T.B., and a few others here or there). However, NONE recommend any of the Measles vaccines before 9 months (India), with most being after 1 year, and a few at 15 months. The reason is that breastfeeding infants get partial protection from their mothers and giving the vaccine too early is risky because there is an increased chance of complications the earlier you give it; and different countries balance that risk differently depending on how widespread measles is in that country, how long the average parent breastfeeds, mobility of the population, etc.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

As many as 1 out of 168 end up with harmful side effects from vaccines. But in the US, less than 1% are reported as vaccine harm or side effects.

Perhaps that is because 1/168 is less than 1%?

Re:But don't worry

[Darinbob]

Pure capitalism will also always fail. Because pure capitalism doesn't handle the white elephant in the room that monetary forces cannot solve every problem and that pure market forces inevitably lead to monoplies, unfair competition, and barriers to market entry. But we mix in other stuff with capitalism to make it work - governments, regulation, safety nets, health care, etc.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

So, how many of those gun injuries and deaths are accidental and/or self inflicted? Go on, we'll wait...

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately we, as a society, are too civilized to simply say "no" when they come begging for a cure when they got the disease that the vaccine could have prevented.

Even if we put all the anti-vaxxers in one of the shitty states and built a wall around it, it would still benefit us to reduce illness in that neighboring area because walls don't work, and they would still be able to spread illness into our land.

How about California, with it's endemic typhoid?

Typhus Epidemic Worsens in Los Angeles

Yep - typhus is endemic in California:

In California, flea-borne typhus is considered endemic (always present) in areas of Los Angeles and Orange counties, but cases sometimes are also reported from other parts of California.

What a fucking shitty state.

Re:But don't worry

[sexconker]

Sure, if you also let those "idiots" sue whoever gave them the disease in the first place.
And if you also let everyone sue drug manufacturers for side effects, prescribers for over prescribeing or incorrectly prescribing, etc.
Might as well sue the sun when you get sunburn.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting narrative you are presenting. Making it sound like the vaccine makes outbreaks more likely, and if we didn't have the vaccine outbreaks would be less likely.

That isn't the case, and it isn't supported by your evidence. A rare bad reaction is justified by an overall population immunity, which is exactly what vaccination gives.

To put it simply....if you don't have the vaccine, then you have outbreaks all over the place and they are very devastating to the economy as to the health of the population. When the vaccine is widely used, you have very rare outbreaks that don't spread very far, sometimes caused by the vaccine.

Which means that, overall, the vaccine makes everyone overwhelmingly safer.

Lastly, pro-vaxers all agree that some people cannot and should not receive the vaccine for medical reasons. So long as the proportion of such people is very low compared to the proportion who can and do receive the vaccine, the overall population immunity still takes effect.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

"Idiots" hey? Liking the KoolAid over there?
1. Big Pharma is real and powerful and don't want you breaking their revenue model.
2. Just because the vials sent to Duunland were clean(er) of mercury, LSD, etc does not clear them.
3. Who _funded_ this study?
I hope you never witness the aftermath of a vaccine gone wrong. Even if it is 1 in 10,000,000 cases - when it is someone you know or your kid, the numbers mean nothing.
The big problem is vaccinating tiny kids. Age 7 and up, maybe their own immune system is strong enough, but not before. Like the teen who went and got himself immunised as his mom was anti-vaxx. By that age and stage his system can easily handle a jab or six.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

you know she's the Queen of Canada right? seems rather a poor choice to nuke one of her own kingdoms...

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. It's that humans are jealous and selfish.

Re:But don't worry

[DigiShaman]

It was WW2 that pulled out out of the Great Depression by virtue being the only western super power to not get annihilated! It's easy to recover when you're banking on massive exports overseas to rebuild nations coupled with the disparity in wealth. Had the Internet and mass cheap international transportation been around then, globalism would have CRUSHED us!

Re:But don't worry

[spitzak]

Tens of thousands escaped from East Germany.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, yes, yes it does. I cannot be vaccinated against TB. As I went through university I very much needed herd immunity (along with an X-Ray programme for foreign students) in order not to contract TB.

And no. "Herd immunity" is very much science, very much backed by predictive maths. Yes, it emerged as a concept before the idea of vaccination. But no, it isn't just about unlucky bastards like me who can't be vaccinated. It's also about people who are vaccinated but for whom the vaccine will subsequently prove to be inadequate, which is a lot more.

Don't be an idiot.

Re:But don't worry

[F.Ultra]

As you well know, those countries are only socialist if some one in the US want's to point to something bad in said country, when they want to point to something good then they are capitalistic with "some socialist programs".

Re: But don't worry

[spitzak]

Not from *one* car ride. Don't be an idiot.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Disagreeing with you (correct) medical notions is not a crime, and being against vaccination is not a crime, and they shouldn't be locked up. Adding barriers to the education of antivaxer's kids will perpetuate the problem.

Peanut allergies don't mean I get to force other people to only consume them in designated areas, or restrict their freedoms. I feel the same way about vaccinations. If you have medical conditions that make you susceptible to certain diseases, you don't get to force everyone else to accommodate you. Know that I write this understanding that my vaccinations may not have given me 100% immunity. Disclaimer, I don't get flu shots every year.

This being said, understand I support your ability to lobby and vote for policies you believe in. I just hold civil liberties to be very important.

Re:But don't worry

[Darinbob]

New Deal happened earlier, and did alleviate much of the great depression. WWII came after and accelerated the US into being an economic superpower, but the great depression was essentially over before we entered the war. There was the overlap period, where we still had the depression, we weren't in the war, but Europe was at war, so this certainly had an effect. But you cannot discount the New Deal as not helping.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

The end of the Great Depression was nearly a decade after the New Deal was passed and only happened after the worst parts of it were repealed.

Re:But don't worry

[baker_tony]

"The problem is when they become socialist countries with some capitalism mixed in, which is what the "Socialist Democrats" want."
LOL! I just love Americans, you think your Democrats are left wing, they're more right wing than most right wing parties in other countries, it's just that the Republican's are extreme right-wing, making the Democrats look left wing in comparison. You don't even know what life would be like under a center party, let alone a left wing party.
TLDR; You have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

And to add to that, we are completely ignoring the fact that they are just idiots who have an unhealthy fear of shots.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Up until the last decade, Italy, France, Greece, and the UK were also held up as examples of countries where socialist policies have worked out great. For some odd reason, the American left has conveniently stopped mentioning all these places in their list of utopias.

Re:But don't worry

[Obfuscant]

Gun control does not equal gun confiscation or elimination.

It does, however, equal "infringement", which the 2nd amendment is pretty clear is a "shall not".

The words "well regulated" are adjectives that apply to the militia, not to the right to keep and bear arms. It also appears in a clause that is descriptive and not proscriptive. I.e., it gives one reason for an inalienable right, which being inalienable, actually requires no reason at all. Would you accept a requirement that you provide some reason why police cannot come search your house at any time they wish (4th amendment)? Or do you need to give the reason why you don't want to answer questions that might incriminate you (5th)?

We already have gun control. For example, any time I want to buy a gun my name goes to the FBI for a background check and (I am assured) does not go onto a list of gun owners. "I am assured" by the people who would be keeping the list, of course.

It would be honest to call for "more gun control", but everyone who calls for more controls tries to pretend we have none at all now.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

San Francisco is a stinking pile of garbage. Hope that helps.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

You're obviously not paying attention to what your side is saying.
And it's not us who won't compromise.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

And capitalism as we have it today over-rewards some achievers to an extent that is ridiculous. According to Oxfam just eight people own as much as the poorest half of the world's population. Do you actually think that one person can personally achieve hundreds of millons times more than what you call a non-achiever? This system is as parasitic as a full blown socialist system where everyone gets exactly the same award (assuming that ever existed in practice on more than a tiny scale).

It's not socialism that fails, extremes fail. We don't need extreme socialisme nor extreme capitalism, we need a healthy balance.

Re: But don't worry

[Cederic]

MMR has been proven to cause autism over and over in court

That's interesting. Which cases were those, I haven't seen them.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

I know. That's why yours is one of the few responses I get when correcting their bullshit.

And, like this time, it's someone who already knows that they're talking out of a very unsavory orifice.

Re:But don't worry

[Opportunist]

Peanuts compared to the 17 Millions that wanted out.

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

you're right about what well regulated meant back then

I'd also add that while the right to keep and bear arms is addressed clearly, the right to trade in arms is not addresses at all and one power the constitution most specifically gives congress is to regulate commerce, so actually I think that the true originalist position on this would be that congress can make any law regarding sales that it cares to, including banning the sale of certain types

Re:But don't worry

[mjwx]

That's not the reason socialism fails. Socialism fails because it rewards non-achievers the same as the achievers.

Please point to an actual "socialist" country that actually rewards everyone the same.

That's not a "no true Scottsman" about socialism. It's demonstrating that your theory lacks evidence.

Well not even Communism's stated goal is to "reward everyone equally", communism is owning the means of production. That means that proceeds of production go back to community that produced them. Socialism isn't communism. Socialism is a catch all word for anything that is publicly owned, this covers everything from a municipal police force downwards to actual communism/agrarianism.

Re:But don't worry

[Azaril]

In 2013 there were 73,505 firearm related injuries and 33,636 deaths.

64% of these are deliberately self inflicted, so:

When 107,000 US citizens are violently attacked with firearms every year, gun control is common sense.

Doesn't follow from this at all. I guess honesty is a little too much to ask.

The actual gun murder number is 8,775, out of the original 33,636 deaths. Stop lying and distorting statistics to support your agenda.

Re:But don't worry

[Agent0013]

Reading comprehension is strong with this one.

The point is that there may be as many as 100 times the harm from vaccines as are being reported.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Typhus and typhoid are two different diseases, dumbass.

Re: But don't worry

[kenh]

Odd that SF had to hire a team of workers to specifically address what you refer to as a minor problem...

Re: But don't worry

[kenh]

The New Deal was essentially a socialist policy and it pulled us out of the Great Depression when the prior solutions had been failing.

I'm Interested in why it took the US so much longer to pull ourselves out of the Great Depression compared to every other country?

Re: But don't worry

[kenh]

Sometimes a parent needs to punish their child...

Re:But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Oxfam just eight people own as much as the poorest half of the world's population.

80 people, not 8.

Re: But don't worry

[Anonymous Coward]

Herd immunity isnt ÃoescienceÃ, it is a retarded term for a common sense notion that any child would know on their own. But more to the point, the tiny sliver that doesnt want to vaccinate their children does not increase the likelihood of getting sick of the tiny sliver that wants to but can not by any meaningful amount.

If you are going to paste regurgitated nonsense, at least paste it correctly.

That said, you are obviously a blithering moron, so even this simple advice is likely to be ignored or not understood.

Re:But don't worry

[deadwill69]

Nice response! Nailed it!

I mean, NO SHIT

[Anonymous Coward]

Morons who don't vaccinate their kids should be dealt with by Child Protective Services.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

Morons who don't vaccinate their kids should be dealt with by Child Protective Services.

Well... I agree they are generally morons, but I'm a bit leery of sending CPS into haul the kids away for this. It's a bit too close to jackboots and brown shirts for my tastes and CPS tends to be a bit heavy handed at times to start with. Let's not give them another reason to come calling at your house and take your kids first and ask questions later.

I do support laws just short of making vaccinations mandatory, but there are long standing and closely held religious beliefs that preclude the use of vaccines (along with a host of other medical procedures). So let's make it nearly impossible to get public services, attend public schools or attend government sponsored gatherings of children without vaccines having been given as recommended, except if there are valid and documented medical reasons which make vaccinations inappropriate. IF your religious belief precludes your kids from vaccines, fine, but you don't get to put them in public school, obtain welfare benefits, or use other public services until you vaccinate them (or get the medical waver)...

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Anonymous Coward]

The bible tells me that vaccinations do cause autism, so you've gotta admit that your "scientists" and Child Protective Services look pretty ridiculous as they're caught red-handed, contradicting God himself.

Such arrogance! C'mon, when you're contradicting God, surely you know you've left the path of wisdom.

If you ever need help understanding the word of God, just ask me. I hear the voices in my head and I understand what they're saying. You might think it's a burden on me, to be that special person that society needs to communicate with The Lord, but I consider it a gift.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[gtall]

"religious beliefs that preclude the use of vaccines" And just what might those religious beliefs be? Non-belief in modern science and medicine? Belief that kids are parents' property to do unto as they please? Belief in endangering the rest of the pop. that doesn't share those beliefs? Religious beliefs my ass, those holders are deluded if those beliefs constitute religious beliefs. I don't recall any the Bible or the Koran admonishing followers to shun modern medicine of whatever age they live in.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

Some sects of the Mennonites and most of the Amish hold such views. The so called "Christian Science" church also have long standing closely held religious objections to vaccines and other medical procedures. I'm guessing there are others, but I've not heard of them. The Mennonites and Amish don't really mix with the rest of society so I don't see any issue with letting them alone.

Just because you don't agree with their views it doesn't give the government the right to interfere without *really* good reason. Given this is a first amendment right we are talking about abridging, it is a really high bar for the government to meet when abridging this right in any way.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Agent0013]

Everyone I know who has stopped falling for the BS are actually the more educated among the masses.Or they used to vaccinate all the children until they noticed that all the kids have Diabetes, which does not run in the family. Or another family that has multiple cases of asthma. Stop for the last kid and they are healthy. One even noticed that the last, unvaccinated kid, was way smarter than the others. The safety is not what you are being told. Remember that doctors used to say that smoking was safe. And I would not even consider a doctor to be an expert in the safety of vaccines. Do they experiment and take data, or do they just do what they are taught and told to do? The actual "experts" you are listening to are paid by the vaccine manufacturers to tell you it is safe and effective, and you will die without it. Back in the days of polio, sure people thought it was amazing, and it was. Now it is just a money making scheme and the life savings aspect has been removed, if it ever even existed. Polio cases were going down before vaccination started, so the efficacy in even the best case possible is questionable.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[lgw]

There are definitely religious beliefs that reject modern medicine. It's a hard problem of the boundary of state power. It's really a bad road to start down having the government tell parents that they're wrong, but here they're so clearly wrong. It's not an easy situation for the courts.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[drinkypoo]

So let's make it nearly impossible to get public services, attend public schools or attend government sponsored gatherings of children without vaccines having been given as recommended,

...nor go anywhere public, since the measles virus (for example) can persist for as long as two hours. No supermarkets, no playgrounds, no airports, no bus depots...

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Anonymous Coward]

Quick question: how do you recognise people as being more educated, when you're so stupid yourself that you write such terrible English? I mean "are actually the more educated among the masses"? That sounds like you shat it out your arse, not typed it on a keyboard. Spend more time wanking and less time typing. It would be a boon for all of us.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

Boy have you fallen for the AntiVaxx dogma in a big way.

You are claiming this is all a big conspiracy between doctors, the FDA and Big Pharma to make money. I'm wondering if your tin-foil hat is a bit too tight..

Just so you know. About 120,000 kids DIE every year from the measles. Not in the USA of course, we are vaccinated here for the most part, but back before the vaccine became available kids died here too. The MMR vaccine saves lives and is available cheap if you cannot pay full price.

Polio is one of the brightest cases for vaccines. The vaccine has *almost* eradicated the three types of polio completely. One has been eliminated in the wild, is no longer included in the vaccine. Polio used to do grave harm to large number of people, now, it sill kills people nearly every year, but the number of cases world wide has fallen *way* down to under a few hundred a year. In this case, if you are trying to get rid of vaccines, then it actually makes sense to push the polio vaccine *hard* because we are so very close to not needing it anymore and will have removed a scourge that killed millions. I call that a success story.

By the way, your "it was going down" really isn't true. Polio went though huge swings, cycling from low to high every 5 to 10 years in the USA. The final push for the vaccine happened during one of the worst peaks in history and drove the mas vaccination campaign that became "The March of Dimes" once the "Childhood paralysis" cause was addressed and we've not seen polio cycling at all since. CLEARLY the vaccine had something to do with this, regardless of what you'd like to imply.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

So let's make it nearly impossible to get public services, attend public schools or attend government sponsored gatherings of children without vaccines having been given as recommended,

...nor go anywhere public, since the measles virus (for example) can persist for as long as two hours. No supermarkets, no playgrounds, no airports, no bus depots...

Well... I see your point, but again, we are talking about basic human rights outlined in the construction. It's going to be a hard lift in the courts for the government to legally prevent unvaccinated people from traveling or frequenting public places.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Anonymous Coward]

Jackboots in this case are completely justified.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Jason Levine]

Actually, the Amish vaccinate. It's a myth that they don't. (Just like it's a myth that there aren't any autistic Amish.)

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

Actually, the Amish vaccinate. It's a myth that they don't. (Just like it's a myth that there aren't any autistic Amish.)

I never said ALL Amish, I said most. It depends on the community and the stance of their "elders" who establish their own policy based on their views. Some Amish own and drive tractors, some are strictly horse and buggy types.

I suspect their autism rates are similar to the rest of the nation, though I've not seen any studies about that. IF they where different, you can bet there would be a rush of medical researchers out investigating the various possible causes and we'd have cohort studies on top of cohort studies trying to weed out actual causes already.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[drinkypoo]

Well... I see your point, but again, we are talking about basic human rights outlined in the construction. It's going to be a hard lift in the courts for the government to legally prevent unvaccinated people from traveling or frequenting public places.

They can travel, but only in anti-vaxxer only transport, with clearly marked warnings for would-be good samaritans who don't want to risk becoming carriers, or being infected. They absolutely should not be permitted to frequent public places. They're making a choice to endanger others, and that choice should be given all the respect which it deserves; no more, and no less. It deserves to be respected in that they should be able to do it, but it also deserves to be respected in that their lack of regard for others must be addressed.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Jason Levine]

Sorry, I missed the "most" in your post. I've seen too many people say "the Amish never vaccinate and don't have any autism... proof that vaccines cause autism!" Setting aside for a moment that this wouldn't be definitive proof (it could be dozens of other things that the Amish refrain from), the fact of the matter is that the Amish do vaccinate. If they do have a lower rate of Autism, it could also be from lower detection rates (fewer Amish families taking their kids to get diagnosed) versus an actual lower rate.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Talderas]

Amish populations don't object to vaccines over religious reasons. The largest reason they provide is concern over the safety or efficacy of vaccines.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...

Mennonites appear to have the same views for rejecting vaccines rather than religious.

The only religious objection to vaccine tend to come from sects where they believe in faith healing and that frequently manifests as a general across the board rejection of modern medicine.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[sexconker]

Nope. Separate but equal is not equal. You lose instantly.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

You say to-mate-o, I say to-mot-o...

It is still based in their religious views.. Some don't have issues with "modern" technology including modern medical practices, some do.

However, The Christian Scientists DO have religious objections which reject vaccinations along with all sorts of modern medical procedures...

But let's not forget my original point. SOME object to vaccines on closely held religious grounds. This makes the idea of government forcing vaccinations interfere with the free exercise of religion recognized in the first amendment. This is a really heavy legal burden in the courts when you try to enforce such laws, so we cannot just run pell-mell and write some ill-advised law that isn't sufficiently narrow (and thus ineffective) and hope that it survives the court challenge. Such action would be stupid...

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Talderas]

It's not based on religious views. The Amish and Mennonite religions don't have doctrine against vaccines.

Christine Science is a faith which follows prayer/faith healing. Their opposition to vaccines is part of a general rejection of modern medicine and that is an important distinction to keep in mind. No amount of efficacy or safety of vaccines is going to budge the doctrine on faith healing religions, compare that against other religions where objections were based on an erroneous belief of the use of blood in vaccines (Jehova's Witness) or based on beliefs that fetal tissue was used. These religions revised their doctrinal stance on vaccines when evidence was presented to them because they accept modern medicine.

These sects also happen to form a vast minority of the anti-vax movement population and its pretty easy to let them keep their religious exemption because the total population we're speaking of is unlikely to be a risk to herd immunity. There does need to be stricter guidelines on the usage of religious exemptions. Parents are abusing them and treating them equivalent to philosophical objections when they have no faith or belong to a faith that doesn't have doctrinal objection.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[drinkypoo]

Nope. Separate but equal is not equal. You lose instantly.

You're right, it's not equal. However, willful idiot is not a protected class — it's a choice. We all lose if we permit them to mix in with the rest of us.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[greythax]

Well, not to nitpick, but this is exactly the sort of thing that CPS is charged with doing. Protecting the health and welfare of children for whom the parents won't. Vaccination is the very definition of protecting a child's health, so one need not extend their powers so much as enforce their current mandate in these circumstances. And rather than take the kids, CPS could just come in and administer the vaccines. There are lots of options between doing nothing and dragging kids off to concentration camps.

Secondly, we have been punting on religious connection to healthcare for a long time. An adult choosing to refuse healthcare, for any reason, is one thing, but refusing a blood transfusion for a child because Best Buddy in The Sky says so is another thing all together. Freedom of religion should never be interpreted as exemption from morality. I find it useful to replace "because god says so" with "I want to" when I need to ground myself in the morality of a decision based on religion. "I'm going to let my child bleed to death because I want to." is not the sort of thing any sane person would let happen. Why do we accept it when it is done in the name of religion?

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

I'm just going to say that when you start to curtail religious freedom recognized in the 1st amendment, you better have a damn good reason. This isn't one of them...

You may *think* that it's "for the children" but it's a dangerous slippery slope you are on. I don't want the CPS camel's nose in my tent anymore than necessary, today it may just be vaccines, but what will it be tomorrow? I'm teaching my kids stuff CPS doesn't agree with or my choice as a parent doesn't live up to the community standards because I don't mind them playing in the dirt and getting dirty or I require them to perform what I consider age appropriate physical labor to teach them responsibility and a strong work ethic? Or I let them drink unpasteurized milk from my own cows?

I urge much caution here... I vaccinated my kids, but I can see how some have religious objections and it's not my business to judge the validity of their religion and certainly NOT government's business, in the absence of a clear and immediate need to abridge religious freedom. Unvaccinated kids are NOT in immediate danger, and do not pose an immediate threat to public safety and health. I don't think we can constitutionally force this issue with parents and make it stick in the courts. Why waste time trying? Perhaps education would be a better approach? Certainly it has the possibility of helping and won't waste piles of money in the courts finding out the law is unconstitutional anyway.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[greythax]

and it's not my business to judge the validity of their religion and certainly NOT government's business

Well, that's not true. You wouldn't proudly stand up and endorse someones right to commit human sacrifice in the name of their religion, or rape their 10 year old girl as a right of passage in their religion. You not only have right to judge those actions, but a moral imperative. The only reason you think this is different because you assume vaccination isn't as serious as those examples. Let me ask you this, assuming we had a superflu raging around the world, one with a 50% mortality rate, would religious objections to vaccinating their child still be in the "not my business" category? How about at a 100% mortality rate? Under conditions like those, the choice to not vaccinate your child is morally equivalent to the choice to not feed your child. Just because someone invokes their religion doesn't mean it is ok for us to put our moral judgement to the side and watch them do as they please.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[sexconker]

Having a religious belief is protected. You lose again.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[drinkypoo]

Having a religious belief is protected. You lose again.

There is no freedom of religion without freedom from religion. Permitting their god-fearing snowflakes to spread disease is permitting them to push their religion onto me, and interferes with my freedom of religion.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Anonymous Coward]

Not vaccinating your kid should be dealt with the same way as you not feeding them. This isn't even contentious; you're risking kids lives (yours and every other kids in the vicinity) by failing to do so.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Anonymous Coward]

So let's make it nearly impossible to get public services, attend public schools or attend government sponsored gatherings of children without vaccines having been given as recommended, except if there are valid and documented medical reasons which make vaccinations inappropriate. IF your religious belief precludes your kids from vaccines, fine, but you don't get to put them in public school, obtain welfare benefits, or use other public services until you vaccinate them (or get the medical waver)...

So, you want to punish kids over their parent's awful decisions.

This is exactly what CPS is supposed to prevent.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[Cederic]

IF your religious belief precludes your kids from vaccines, fine

My religious requires me to brutally torture people that refuse to vaccinate their children.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[bobbied]

Oh please... Of course it's true. Don't be absurd here. The government can clearly put limits on religion, and the case for preventing human sacrifice is pretty easy to make in court. Vaccinating kids is not so clear.

Not vaccinating your kids is not even close to causing them immediate and irreparable harm. It is thus very hard to make the argument that the government has the need to abridge your religious rights and force you to vaccinate your kids.

Please understand the argument I'm making. I'm saying that if this is sufficient legal reason to abridge religious freedom, I'm concerned that the government can now possibly regulate religious freedom in may more ways than it should. I'm saying that if you let this be enough, you are way down the slippery slope and not protecting religious freedoms, one of the core principles of our founding.

The courts have established that such abridging of freedoms must pass the "strict test" or they are unconstitutional. Forcing vaccinations does not clearly meet this test.

Re:I mean, NO SHIT

[samwichse]

Bad mod undo.

Seven percent less likely means correlation

[iamacat]

Like parents who don't vaccinate do so because they are noticing signs of autism and sometimes they are right. Or something else entirely. In either case, you can't claim both that there is no link and that vaccine cuts down on autism. If authors really wanted to claim no link, they should have said that the difference is below statistical noise at their sample size.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[TimothyHollins]

Like parents who don't vaccinate do so because they are noticing signs of autism and sometimes they are right. Or something else entirely. In either case, you can't claim both that there is no link and that vaccine cuts down on autism. If authors really wanted to claim no link, they should have said that the difference is below statistical noise at their sample size.

No, they didn't want to draw those conclusions since there were confounding factors.

From TFA:

"Another drawback is the potential for some kids to have undiagnosed autism before getting the MMR vaccine, which could make the MMR vaccine appear linked to autism when it really isn’t connected, the study authors note. It’s also possible that the onset of autism symptoms might lead parents to skip the vaccine. "

They don't feel confident noting a correlation since the numbers are within the margin of error. What can safely be concluded is that there is no increase in autism in the vaccinated group.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you please point out where it is stated that "vaccine cuts down on autism"? I might suck at reading because I can't find it.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

"Kids who got the MMR vaccine were seven percent less likely to develop autism than children who didn't get vaccinated"

That part?

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, what? No one is claim "vaccines cut down on autism."

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

Hope you like home schooling your kids then. And also not working in the health care industry.

You aren't the only person in the world, and if you insist on remaining a risk for spreading disease, then you don't have a right to impose that risk on the rest of us.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[bobbied]

This has been studied many times in the last decade or two. Always with the same result....

What they are saying is there is no INCREASED risk of autism in kids who got the MMR vaccine and those who didn't. They are saying that correlation does not imply causation and in this case, MMR didn't cause autism. They are, however, acknowledging that the onset of autism happens to coincide with the giving of MMR vaccine. This is because autism is diagnosed at about the same time as it becomes apparent in the developmental delays about the same time as the vaccine is given. They are debunking the logic error used by the antivaxx dogma to push their mistake.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[omfglearntoplay]

I distrust most medicine and avoid most types of medicine for the most part due to known and unknown side effects, but I am more than good with vaccinations. Vaccinations are more natural than anything else in western medicine. They are just teaching your immune system to fight diseases... it is really the best option you have out there for staying healthy.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't feel confident noting a correlation since the numbers are within the margin of error. What can safely be concluded is that there is no increase in autism in the vaccinated group.

No, it can't. They did notice a correlation, and didn't bother to correct for it, because it skewed the data in the way they wanted. Suppose that vaccines did cause autism, at a small but non-negligible rate, but people who noticed early signs of autism in their children (or those in risk groups, like with autistic siblings) decided to skip vaccines in an effort to not make their children worse off. That way you'd get bigger rates of autism in the non-vaccinated group, DESPITE the fact that we assume in this scenario that vaccines DO cause autism. This is like a textbook definition of study bias.

That's why any serious medical trial is RANDOMIZED - to make sure people don't self-select themselves into the vaccinated/non-vaccinated groups based on the disease you're testing for. It's kind of similar to saying that chemotherapy causes cancer - because people on chems tend to die from cancer This study on the other hand has holes big enough to drive a truck through. But yes, by all means, push this crappy study on anti-vaxxers, and then act all outraged when they call out the lie and loose their faith in the truthfulness of the medical community. You know, a I'm provaxxer, but seeing stuff like this I find it harder and harder to blame antivaxxers for believing what they believe.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Chris Mattern]

"The right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

I'm still on the fence about calling CPS on people who don't vaccinate their kids. But not letting the kids into school, hell, yes. Your right to not vaccinate definitely doesn't include your right to propagate measels into public schools.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[gweihir]

Indeed. The finding of no positive correlation has larger significance because the numbers are skewed to imply the negative correlation. But since the other finding is within the margin of error, they just comment on possible explanation, but do not state them as results. This is an exceptionally important difference, even if it seems to fly right over many people's heads.

So:
1. Vaccination does cause autism: Strong, reliable negative finding. This does not happen.
2. Non-vaccination does cause autism: Weak indication, within margin of error, may have other explanation and the scientist offer a few potential ones

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[gweihir]

Fighting epidemics is not totalitarianism. It is species survival. It justifies killing people if nothing else is available to stem the tide. If some people think they can endanger society as a whole, force has to be applied to stop their behavior. This is not nice, but necessary. If you do not get that, you have no place in society.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was a kid, the public school just lined us all up in the gym every year or so and shot us all in the upper arm with a thing that sounded like a staplegun. No questions, no consent, I don't even know what they shot us with (though I guess there was a record somewhere). That's how I got all of my vaccinations up until I had to get 1 or 2 missing mandatory ones for college.

Still haven't had a flu shot - I'm not against vaccinations but that thing is as stupid as the lottery.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

Textbook definition of a narcissist. aka. asshole.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[bussdriver]

Naturally, they SELL you on the best situation possible while saying "think of the children."

YOU do not get sick if you are vaccinated. Mandatory customers with 100% lawsuit protection is the DREAM situation for them. Naturally, government negotiated free drugs are not their ideal (but still very profitable.)

Industry is promoting this stuff. WAKE UP!

Odds are more likely a phone driver kills the kid. or drunk driver. Are you pushing for laws disabling smart phone use in a moving car? Why not? "think of the children"

You don't really give a fuck. This tribal propaganda has you hating on "THEM" sub-humans. If you do hate them, then let them suffer naturally of their own making.

Once you hand over your freedom, then watch them stick you with questionable products you can't opt-out from and have to endure being one of "THOSE PEOPLE" just for reasonable objections.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[gtall]

omfglearntoplay: Doctor, I have this lump, it's growing larger.

Doctor: Hmmm...that's looks serious, we need a biopsy (takes sample)

Weeks later:

omfglearntoplay: Well Doctor?

Doctor: I'm afraid I have bad news. You have ear lobe cancer.

omfglearntoplay: Well, cut off then.

Doctor: Won't help, it's already metastasized, you are going do die unless you undergo chemo-therapy.

omfglearntoplay: No, I do not believe modern medicines.

Doctor: Ummm...could you please tell me your next of kin (address, tele. ph., etc), I'd like to know where I should send the bills should you croak before you pay them.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

FUCK YOU YOU STALINIST.

Nobody should be forced by the government to have something injected into their body or that of their family members full stop

So, in your little shithead of a mind, do you think individual freedom means you are free to walk around with a potentially fatal communicable disease to spread to other people?

Because maybe that means the rest of us should be able to take you out for the good of the rest of us.

Since when does your personal liberty allow you to infect people?

If your drooling idiocy makes you insist you can infect other people, then maybe you and the other idiots need to be corralled separate from the rest of us ... you know, like leper colonies.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[iamacat]

Testosterone causes more damage to society than measles. Should we institute mandatory castration to make public safer, or is there something to be said for personal autonomy?

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[DarkOx]

No I think if you want to be safe you have responsibility to protect your self. Get vaccinated your self if you are worried. If you have some immune deficiency than you need to isolate your self.

Its like people with incurable communicable diseases like HIV or even say herpes. Should we lock people who are infected away, no. Should it be criminal to intentionally spread them yes.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[magarity]

Remember the Disney Measles outbreak? Yep, vaccine strain that caused the outbreak, not wild strain

See, this is the problem with the anti-vaccine information. You've got it exactly backwards. Measles vaccines (in the US) are for the 'A' type measles strain while the Disney outbreak was a 'B' type strain. And the vaccines are made from actual measles viruses one might catch, not some artificial strain as your "vs wild strain" seems to imply.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[gweihir]

The mere stupidity, were do I even start? Well, I guess you are just a lost cause. You are not the only one, and if a society gets enough of the likes of you, it dies.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[gweihir]

Testosterone is not infectious. Seriously. Could your argument be any dumber?

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Areyoukiddingme]

Testosterone causes more damage to society than measles.

Assumes facts not in evidence, but even if true, it's necessary for the propagation of the species, so we'll live with it.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Areyoukiddingme]

Try your force and see the counter force.

You will lose. You will die, if need be. We ARE going to win this.

The nightmare existence humanity suffered through for the thousand years prior to vaccination will NOT be allowed to return, and if you have to die to prevent it, I will happily pull the trigger myself. No. We are not going back to the fucking Dark Ages because of your stupid ass. The infant mortality rate was 300 in every 1000 births in Medieval Europe. That's an appalling number, and the vast majority of those deaths were from diseases that are now preventable. We are going to prevent them, if we have to ride over your corpse to do it.

Sit down and shut up you Medieval fucking peasant.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[sexconker]

Like parents who don't vaccinate do so because they are noticing signs of autism and sometimes they are right. Or something else entirely. In either case, you can't claim both that there is no link and that vaccine cuts down on autism. If authors really wanted to claim no link, they should have said that the difference is below statistical noise at their sample size.

Correct. And it's a meta study, of course.

If you want to claim no link you need to take a random sample of n kids, give half vaccines and half placebos, then compare autism rates while controlling for other factors (like family history of autism).

That is repeatable. That is falsifiable. That is science. That will not happen.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Same goes with circumcision. They notice a statistically insignificant decrease in infectious disease rates, and shout it from the mountain tops.
But it's only because people are constantly told that circumcision is healthier. Thus "responsible" people are more likely to mutilate their babies. Thus children mutilated by circumcision are more likely to be instilled some level of responsibility and avoid disease regardless.

Hell, the significance of disease prevention due to circumcision is less than the significance of babies (and adults) losing their penises or outright being killed by the procedure.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[sexconker]

"The right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

Wrong. If someone has a right to swing their fist, them hitting your nose won't remove that right.
They will simply be held responsible for the individual incident if hitting your nose was deemed to be a criminal act or if they are deemed culpable for damages.
They will still be able to swing their fist.

You're thinking of a privilege, not a right.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[gweihir]

Don't know about the strains, but just ordinary statistics seems to explain what happened at Disney: https://www.wired.com/2015/01/...

Pretty much means the unvaccinated caused most of it.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[iamacat]

Your right to not vaccinate definitely doesn't include your right to propagate measels into public schools.

Cool, then give them vouchers for whatever amount a public school will spend on their kids to take them to a school of their choice.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[Chris Mattern]

So they can spread measles in the "school of their choice?" No thanks. No school of any kind until you vaccinate.

Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation

[ImprovOmega]

So they did genotyping on the measles cases from Disneyland. There's a pretty detailed report here if you care to spend 2 seconds doing a Google search. There were 31 people who had recently been vaccinated who showed up with febrile rashes which were caused by the vaccine for measles, but that's actually a known side effect of the vaccine (in ~5% of cases) and wouldn't have been full blown measles in any case. The actual outbreak strain was genotype B3 which account for 73 cases that were tested, and those folks actually did get measles.

So...maybe spend a few seconds researching before spewing garbage on a discussion board?

VACCINE MAN BAD!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

VACCINE MAN BAD!!!!

Re:VACCINE MAN BAD!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

This insight brought to you by the coalition for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella.

Does this help?

[fluffernutter]

Will this convince anyone? It seems anti-vaxxers have already decided to make up their mind independent of scientific studies.

Re:Does this help?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's quite likely; there have been several other large studies that have also failed to produce evidence of the MMR vaccine increasing the chances for autism, and the convinced anti-vaxxers haven't been persuaded by those either. But for those who still have some rational thought processes left, the continuing accumulation of large studies which produce only negative results should be a bit of a wake-up call.

Re:Does this help?

[jeff4747]

It might help a very small number of anti-vaxxers realize they were wrong.

The vast majority of anti-vaxxers are so wedded to being 'special' that no evidence will change their mind.

But you're not really trying to convince anti-vaxxers with this study. You're trying to prevent more people from becoming anti-vaxxers.

Re:Does this help?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure about the "special" argument. Really it's just another example of confirmation bias, which everyone, yes including you, are affected by.

Re:Does this help?

[gtall]

It may also help kids to realize their anti-vaxxer parents are whack-jobs and to go get themselves vaccinated.

Re:Does this help?

[Agent0013]

Or you are not looking at all the studies.

Re:Does this help?

[Agent0013]

The autism thing is a red herring. I'm not worried about autism, but there are numerous other things that people are noticing about the not-as-safe-as-we-were-told vaccines, their effects and the way they are not recorded accurately. Plus, the outbreaks you love to blame on anti-vaxxers have actually been vaccine strains being spread around. So not only is the efficacy not as good as you thought, but the source is not what you were told. I don't think we can force things on people when they are this little understood.

Re:Does this help?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think I've ever seen a louder scream for "Citations needed".

Re:Does this help?

[Anonymous Coward]

SHUT UP

You are infecting this entire comment thread with your pithy ignorance.

You don't know a goddamn thing about vaccines, or medicine, or anything science for that matter.

You are a total dumbfuck, so keep your goddamn mouth shut fuckstick.

Re:Does this help?

[fluffernutter]

If there is some obscure study that sheds light on what these other large studies are getting wrong, by all means, I expect that scientist to raise a bloody fuss, come to terms with the community, and change the common opinion. Until they do their duty, I have no time for crackpots with degrees.

Re:Does this help?

[F.Ultra]

No it won't. Back when thimerosal where removed from all new vaccines the leaders of the anti-vaxx movement agreed in debates with the skeptic community that if autism levels would not drop 5 years later then they would agree that they had no case against vaccines. 5 years went by and the levels didn't drop but of course instead of agreeing that they where wrong they started to claim some insane stuff such as "crematoriums increasing their release of mercury in levels that compensates for the removal of thimerosal from vaccines"...

Source for this was an 2007 episode of SGU.

Re:Does this help?

[F.Ultra]

There have been no "vaccine strains being spread around", don't you know the basic fact that the strains used in most vaccines are dead? That a vaccinated kid can get the same symptoms as being infected by the "real thing" is just because his body reacting to the killed strain from the vaccine, not because the kid actually got infected.

The measles outbreaks where 100% due to the anti-vaxxers.

Obviously Biased Study

[Anonymous Coward]

Who sponsored the study study? Government.

Who is trying to make your kid get Autism? Government.

No bias here folks. Wake up.

Re:Obviously Biased Study

[Anonymous Coward]

Who sponsored the study study? Government.

Who is trying to make your kid get Autism? Government.

No bias here folks. Wake up.

Why would the government want kids to be autistic?

Re:Obviously Biased Study

[Anonymous Coward]

The lesbians and the jihadis are making them do it. Along with the Jews.

There's no point in looking for rationality. These anti-vaxx people have a narrative that gives them comfort. I wish they'd all just stuck with sucking their thumb, or masturbating a bit more frequently. It would save a lot of suffering.

Re:Obviously Biased Study

[bobbied]

Why would the government want kids to be autistic?

Oh stop with the logical arguments here... They will fall on deaf ears.. Trust me...

IF there was *any* truth to this vaccines cause autism idea, you can bet people like the ones over at "Autism Speaks" would be up in arms to get vaccines stopped. IN FACT they are not, exactly the opposite. Autism Speaks clearly says there is no link and recommend you vaccinate your children. They have no dog in the hunt with big pharma or the FDA and are a premier authority on the causes and treatments of autism.

But hey, confirmation bias will clearly be used to dismiss any and all facts contrary to the closely held theories here..

Re:Obviously Biased Study

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would the government want kids to be autistic?

So their absentee ballots can be harvested as straight Democratic ticket votes, same as people who are illiterate or don't speak English.

Great but

[Artem S. Tashkinov]

As with every other bias this study won't convince most of the anti-vaxers because they've already formed a strong belief and they will only accept the "information" which furthers their irrational point of view which is lacking any reasoning and is not based on facts.

Re:Great but

[gweihir]

It is time to either force them to move to their own isolated island or be vaccinated by law. They are threatening any kid that cannot get vaccinated for medial reasons and there are a few of those.

Re:Great but

[bobbied]

They have their ONE study, performed by a now discredited doctor who lost his medical license for his lack of ethical research techniques and lack of effective peer reviews. The study has been condemned as wrong for decades, but you can bet they will quote from that one....

In the mean time, 120,000 kids a year die around the world from the illness prevented by the MMR vaccine.

Re:Great but

[squiggleslash]

It is time to either force them to move to their own isolated island or be vaccinated by law

Given it's the kids who don't get vaccinated, not the parents - who are the people who make the decisions for them - I can't see a way to make such a proposal humane and fair.

Re:Great but

[gweihir]

This is not about "humane and fair", this is about "necessary".

Re:Great but

[Anonymous Coward]

They have their ONE study, performed by a now discredited doctor who lost his medical license for his lack of ethical research techniques and lack of effective peer reviews. The study has been condemned as wrong for decades, but you can bet they will quote from that one....

In the mean time, 120,000 kids a year die around the world from the illness prevented by the MMR vaccine.

The other reason Wakefield lost his license was that he was profiteering from his own fraudulent research.

Re:Great but

[bobbied]

They have their ONE study, performed by a now discredited doctor who lost his medical license for his lack of ethical research techniques and lack of effective peer reviews. The study has been condemned as wrong for decades, but you can bet they will quote from that one....

In the mean time, 120,000 kids a year die around the world from the illness prevented by the MMR vaccine.

The other reason Wakefield lost his license was that he was profiteering from his own fraudulent research.

I know. right. Did you read what he was doing to is poor "research subjects" who where young kids with autism? I dare say NOBODY on the anti-vaxx side of this argument would have approved, and most would be appalled at the barbaric medical procedures he was doing. The whole thing was a scheme to sell a treatment for autism, that was very expensive, didn't work when others tried it and was basically supported by his flawed (read as FAKED) research results.

Now this guy lives in Austin TX... He's made a movie "VAXXED" and maintains he was framed and defamed by big pharma in the UK and the USA and keeps making money selling his anti-vaxx materials and running anti-vaxx organizations. Lucky he's lost his medical license, or he'd be torturing autistic kids in the name of a "cure" and fleecing desperate parents of their hard earned money doing the invasive painful medical procedures he's infamous in the UK for.

I so wish "The Lancet" hadn't published that paper....

Re:Great but

[Anonymous Coward]

They have their one study. But they also have a systematic misinformation campaign run by a hostile foreign power: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45294192

Zomg

[TimMD909]

Dr. Jenny McCarthy was wrong? Who'd have thought...?

Kid catch it

[PPH]

... from their parents constantly screeching about vaccines, government plots, chemtrails, etc.

Learn something

[Anonymous Coward]

CDC has a history of vaccines that have caused issues. I don't remember autism ever being one, but pretending they are 100% safe is foolish.

I think after the polio issues (SV40), medical professionals have taken a lot more care to make them safer.

Re:Learn something

[jellomizer]

The problem is a lot of people are looking for 100% safe. Nothing is 100% safe, it never will be.

The direction towards progress is choosing the options that are safer then the options.
So the problems you get with a Vaccine is in general much less then the problems you have without it. Sometime when I get my Work Mandated Flu shot, I feel a little ill for a week. But that is still better then actually getting the Flu, and spreading it to people who may not be able to get the Flu shot (Immune system problems).

Vaccines work by telling your body there is a dangerous infection in your body. So your body creates Antibodies to fight it. This puts extra stress on your body, but if you are of relatively good health you can deal with it. And that stress will do less harm then the stress of an actual infection.

Re:Learn something

[Opportunist]

Nobody pretends there are no side effects from vaccines. Vaccination is a matter of chances. How likely is it to catch a disease? How likely are lasting effects? And how likely are lasting effects from the vaccine?

And there are VERY few cases of vaccines that are offered to the public AT ALL where that chance balance doesn't tip heavily towards "you're a fucking moron if you refuse vaccination".

Less studies, more laws.

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't a scientific debate anymore, it's an emotional fear. The most likely scenario from more study is people focus in on "why do they continue to study this if they're so sure it doesn't cause autism!". The 7% decreased risk against autism is almost certainly meaningless statistical noise, which I'm sure is non-controversial among researchers. But had it come out 7% the other way, the anti-vaxxers would again leap upon this meaningless noise and suggest there IS a link.

The only way to stop this nonsense is stricter laws requiring vaccinations. There's always a certain amount of people that are going to be afraid of everything. The solution isn't to try to convince them otherwise, it's to compel them to vaccinate. Sometimes we're just too focused in on rationality and choice, and not focused enough on public health.

Re:Less studies, more laws.

[MightyMartian]

Such studies are going to be needed to give the politicians and bureaucrats the cover they need. I don't think it's about convincing idiots not be idiots anymore, it's about setting sensible public policy that is going to necessarily intrude upon the civil liberties of parents who buy into the lies and stupidity of the antivaxxer movement. As with all things, any limitation on liberties requires substantial and demonstrable public good. This study goes some way towards providing policy makers with the ammunition they need.

I think we are rapidly approaching the point where vaccinations, if not outright forced, will give public health officials the power they need to restrict the ability of unvaccinated children to endanger others. It's the best we can probably do in a civil society, unless there is a major outbreak. If the latter happens, well, in the past we've had quarantine laws to prevent the spread of dangerous diseases. One hopes that more moderate but strictly enforced policies won't make that necessary.

Re:Less studies, more laws.

[Anonymous Coward]

Such studies are going to be needed to give the politicians and bureaucrats the cover they need.

We've had that cover for decades. Study after study has revealed no link between the two, and the original study was discredited. More studies don't really give anyone more cover. That's why it's not a rational debate, but an emotional one. Facts don't counter emotions, other emotions do. We need people to be afraid of Measles, not try to convince them there's no risk to the vaccine.

Politicians need to just lay the smack down, and stop hiding behind "freedom!!!" The only thing that's really going to stop this nonsense is (sadly) more measles outbreaks, and laws that address it.

One hopes that more moderate but strictly enforced policies won't make that necessary.

Depends on what's moderate. I like Californias law. If you want to go to a public school, you MUST get vaccinated. The only exceptions are medical, no religious ones allowed. In many states it's just waaaay to easy to get an exemption.

There's also a few things I don't agree with that go a bit far and encourage exemptions. My wife's son grew up in a country where there wasn't any chicken pox vaccinations, and got chicken pox when he was young. He moved here, and the school insisted he either get vaccinated, get tested that showed he'd already had chicken pox, or sign this silly exemption. Guess which one we chose? There's no way we were going to go to all this stupid hassle to get a vaccination for a disease he already had, or make a doctors appt for the doc to test him. Before he moved here we got him caught up on everything else (which got missed do to just pure forgetfulness and procrastination). So we're certainly not anti-vaxxers in any way.

Re:Less studies, more laws.

[Agent0013]

I don't think it's about convincing idiots not be idiots anymore, it's about setting sensible public policy that is going to necessarily intrude upon the civil liberties of parents who buy into the lies and stupidity of the antivaxxer movement

I think it is funny that you think the anti-vaxxers are the stupid people here. I pay attention to the studies out there and what is being found, not what some expert-in-document tells me to believe.

You believe that the non-vaccinated have created the Measles outbreaks, right? Are you aware of the studies, when rarely done, that track down the strain of Measles that was actually being passed around. And that they turn out to be from the vaccine, not wild strains. So the Disney outbreak was actually caused by pro-vaxxers not anti-vaxxers. Other studies being done in Canada are finding the harm caused by vaccines may be as high as 1 out of 10 people. So the safety seems to be not what you were told also.

I would just make it a law that a vaccine shot of antrax and polonium was required by law. Then all the stupid sheeple-vaxxers would be eliminated and we would be left with the smart worthwile people on this planet. And you would dutifully go and get your shot, wouldn't you!

Re:Less studies, more laws.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think

FTFY

Re:Less studies, more laws.

[F.Ultra]

Are you sure? So sure that you don't even link to a single "study"...

Meantime in the real world:

However, investigators from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention now say there is new-found evidence that links the growing number of incidences in the U.S. to a sizable measles outbreak that recently occurred in the Philippines. The CDC reports that specimens from 30 California patients are a direct genetic match to the strain of the virus in the Philippines. Both are classified as measles genotype B3.

Re:Less studies, more laws.

[tomknight]

Ummm... that thing about Disney measles. Not sure who's telling you what, but you might want to check the CDC's report on it. Unless (of course) you think they're in in "the conspiracy" too.

If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[Anonymous Coward]

Traditional, long time used vaccines have a proven track record. However, to suggest vaccines are 100% safe isn't honest. For as misguided as many anti-vaxxors are, they're not completely wrong. There are real, documented safety issues with some vaccines.

If vaccines are so safe, then why are vaccine manufactures NOT liable. That's a huge liability carve-out that few industries get. To be clear, personally, I feel the trade-off of many vaccines out-way their risks, and are beneficial. However, one should use some critical thinking when discussing this issue. It's not totally clear-cut at all.

For more info, use the following search query or similar: pharmaceutical companies legal immunity

Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[Nidi62]

Traditional, long time used vaccines have a proven track record. However, to suggest vaccines are 100% safe isn't honest. For as misguided as many anti-vaxxors are, they're not completely wrong. There are real, documented safety issues with some vaccines.

If vaccines are so safe, then why are vaccine manufactures NOT liable.

Because the government, while acknowledging that vaccines are not 100% safe, still mandates vaccinations with some exceptions. Because getting vaccines is mandatory and there are known but rare side effects it makes sense that government bears the liability, not the manufacturers, and has paid out well over 1 billion dollars in claims for injury due to vaccine (do you know what the highest payout rate is? Tetanus).

Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[shilly]

No-one claims they're 100% safe. Not the government, not medics, and not the manufacturers. They specifically warn of a bunch of risks, on package inserts that look like this: https://www.fda.gov/downloads/...

And they're given a liability carve-out because they're at risk of strategic lawsuits designed to shut them down, orchestrated by a coalition of the dumb and the fuckers.

Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[Gilgaron]

The carve out is because vaccines are necessary for the public health, expensive to research, low margin, and you get to sell them to your customers a handful of times at most. Basic vaccine research is already mostly financed by the government since otherwise pharma is financially better off researching new kinds of Viagra or opioids instead of vaccines.

Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[jeff4747]

However, to suggest vaccines are 100% safe isn't honest

Good thing no one is trying to do that. In fact, governments require publishing the actual "adverse reaction" rate for each vaccine.

It's almost like you aren't being 100% honest in your argument.....

It's not totally clear-cut at all.

Actually, it is totally clear-cut.

Risk of dying from measles: 1 in 1000. Risk of severe adverse reaction to the MMR vaccine: about 1 in 2,000,000 (varies slightly depending on which study). Risk of dying to the MMR vaccine: well, the CDC site lists 2 cases. Total. One had advanced HIV when he got the vaccine.

If you consider 1 in 1000 vs 2 in hundreds of millions to be "not totally clear-cut", you need to have your ability to make any decisions taken away.

Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[Anonymous Coward]

To be clear, personally, I feel the trade-off of many vaccines out-way their risks, and are beneficial.

lol

Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[Anonymous Coward]

'However, to suggest vaccines are 100% safe isn't honest'

That's why nobody has ever once made that claim in the history of ever. Vaccines have never been marketed as being 100% effective.

The reason the vaccine manufacturers have liability protection is because avoiding millions of deaths is more important that some crackpot personal injury lawyer's payday.

It's the same reason police have immunity... because keeping the peace and maintaining law and order is more important than a lawyer's payday.

Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable?

[desdinova 216]

or treatments that just keep a condition under control.

As a parent of autistic child

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully this nonsense can be laid to bed... I hate whenever I one of these crazies find out about my son's diagnosis and they start to blame vaccines etc...My favorite part is non vaccinated children had a slightly higher risk of autism

Make childhoods disease great again

[PopeRatzo]

Reminder: Donald Trump is an anti-vaxxer.

https://www.independent.co.uk/...

The wife of Bill Shine, Trump's communications chief of staff, is also an anti-vaxxer.

https://www.usnews.com/news/po...

Rand Paul is an anti-vaxxer.

https://thehill.com/policy/hea...

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[gweihir]

Fine collection of terminally stupid people you have there. With followers of the same nature.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[Anonymous Coward]

To the brainwashed "the government says it so we must follow" crowd, I suppose allowing parents to choose for their own children is considered "anti-vaxxer".

Given how horribly the government and other health organizations have handled improving population health, if anything we need to be much more critical of big medicine. Big medicine needs to stop calling everyone who disagrees with them anti-science.

See the AHA's laughable attempt to get people to stop ingesting coconut oil:
https://foodbabe.com/coconut-oil-healthy-controversy-explained/

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[gtall]

In Rand Paul's defense, his kids have been vaccinated, and he believes vaccination works. However, he wants individuals to be allowed the right to be predators on the rest of society by refusing to get themselves or their kids vaxxed. You see, it is a principled defense of How to be an Idiot.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[ljw1004]

Rand Paul is an anti-vaxxer. https://thehill.com/policy/hea...

From the article you linked, Rand Paul says: "I believe that the benefits of vaccines greatly outweigh the risks".

I wonder what definition of "anti-vaxxer" you're using?

Rand Paul explained that although he thought vaccines are the right thing to do (and had his kids vaccinated) he believed that government persuasion rather than government force is the right means to achieve that. "I think it's important to remember that force is not consistent with the American story".

Do you define an "anti-vaxxer" as anyone who fails to believe that government should coerce people to vaccinate their children (e.g. in Rand Paul's case by preventing the children from attending school?)

For what it's worth, I believe that vaccines are the right thing to do, and I'm even more extreme in thinking it should be a criminal offence to fail to have your children vaccinated, and I think Rand Paul is wrong on this and most other issues. But the term "anti-vaxxer" can only stretch so far before it breaks, and I don't think it makes sense to call him an anti-vaxxer.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. I'll just leave these here:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/va...
measles-canada.jpg

"Finally, we can look at the experiences of several developed countries after they let their immunization levels drop. Three countries – Great Britain, Sweden, and Japan – cut back the use of pertussis vaccine because of fear about the vaccine. The effect was dramatic and immediate. In Great Britain, a drop in pertussis vaccination in 1974 was followed by an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases of pertussis and 36 deaths by 1978. In Japan, around the same time, a drop in vaccination rates from 70% to 20%-40% led to a jump in pertussis from 393 cases and no deaths in 1974 to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979. In Sweden, the annual incidence rate of pertussis per 100,000 children 0-6 years of age increased from 700 cases in 1981 to 3,200 in 1985. It seems clear from these experiences that not only would diseases not be disappearing without vaccines, but if we were to stop vaccinating, they would come back."

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[gweihir]

Ad hominem attacks is exactly why I don't bother discussing vaccinations with many people.

And the little fact that you are utterly stupid and will get a lot of push-back have nothing to do with it? Keep lying to yourself.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

Rand Paul's position is interesting, in that it is not medically-motivated. From the linked article:

"I believe that the benefits of vaccines greatly outweigh the risks, but I still do not favor giving up on liberty for a false sense of security," Paul said during a Senate hearing focused on the rise in preventable disease outbreaks. ... Paul, a medical doctor, said while he and his kids have been vaccinated, the government should rely on 'persuasion' rather than force to increase vaccine rates.

I don't agree with his conclusion, but I respect his concern.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[apoc.famine]

I don't respect his concern. You don't have the right to put your child or other people in danger. Not getting your kids vaccinated puts them in danger, and it puts anyone that comes into contact with them in danger.

Back in the day, almost 50% of kids died before age 5. Now we're at something like 0.7%, which is still shockingly high.

Dying due to preventable diseases is ridiculous in this day and age, and it's insane that some are making a resurgence because people refuse to vaccinate. If they just would, the problem would solve itself for future generations. We're close to eradicating a fair number of diseases that used to kill millions of people. Preventing that by failing to vaccinate isn't just child abuse, it's a crime against humanity.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[PopeRatzo]

From the article you linked, Rand Paul says: "I believe that the benefits of vaccines greatly outweigh the risks".

He is also quoted there as saying vaccines give parents a "false sense of security". So it appears he wants it both ways. He wants to keep the infowars.ru crowd happy while at the same time not sounding like a complete imbecile.

Vaccines only give a "false sense of security" if you're saying they don't really work. It should be no surprise that Rand Paul is as duplicitous and phony as they come. He talks out of both sides of his face.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[Anonymous Coward]

Ad hominem attacks is exactly why I don't bother discussing vaccinations with many people.

And the little fact that you are utterly stupid and will get a lot of push-back have nothing to do with it? Keep lying to yourself.

You have proved my point exactly. Pro-vaccer's don't actually use science only rage and fear to push their agenda.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[Anonymous Coward]

For what it's worth, I believe that vaccines are the right thing to do, and I'm even more extreme in thinking it should be a criminal offence to fail to have your children vaccinated, and I think Rand Paul is wrong on this and most other issues. But the term "anti-vaxxer" can only stretch so far before it breaks, and I don't think it makes sense to call him an anti-vaxxer.

We have the word "collaborator", with all its connotations, for people like this.

Re:Make childhoods disease great again

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, like abortion and global warming, it's become so politicized there is no rational discussion to be had anymore.

This is NOT okay. It's hurtful, it's not rational, it's counter-productive.

What we're seeing is a mob mentality, with torches and pitchforks. It's (dare I say) evil.

Abortion term limits

[LordAba]

When you think about it, anti-vaxxers are just performing really REALLY late term abortions.

Re:Abortion term limits

[gweihir]

Problem is the perform it on _others_. There are quite a few children that cannot be vaccinated because of genuine medical issues. These kids often have weak immune-systems to begin with. The anti-vaxxer scum put them at risk.

Re:Abortion term limits

[Chris Mattern]

There is also the fact that there is a small percentage of people (couple of percentage points) for whom the vaccination doesn't "take". This happens pretty much at random and is difficult to test for. If everyone is vaccinated, they remain safe, as there's nobody to catch the disease from. But every person who is not vaccinated increases their risk.

Re:Abortion term limits

[gweihir]

Indeed. Many vaccines are only 80% or so effective. If everybody is vaccinated, that is enough to prevent an epidemic. If you add enough anti-vaxxers, you get larger outbreaks and a lot of the people hit will have actually been vaccinated.

Re:Abortion term limits

[MightyMartian]

My understanding is that the measles vaccine, after the booster shot, basically confers lifetime immunity. It is a highly effective vaccine.

Re:Abortion term limits

[Chris Mattern]

Yes, it's highly effective and lifetime. But it's not 100%; nothing ever is. Vaccine effectiveness varies from vaccine to vaccine. For measles, it's about 97% if you get the booster.

Re:Abortion term limits

[gweihir]

The problem is that for herd immunity, you need 93...95% immunity with measles. Assume anybody vaccinated gets the boosters. That still means if you have > 2...4% non-vaccinated, you have a problem. Add that some people cannot take the vaccine for medical reasons and that some are too young and are not yet vaccinated (first dose is recommended at 12...15 months of age) and even a few percent anti-vaxxers will kill herd immunity. This is a close thing. And it explains why relatively few anti-vaxxers can cause real outbreaks and have in the recent past. And then the 3% of those vaccinated where it is ineffective and those that cannot be vaccinated or have not yet been vaccinated due to age (all people which are entirely blameless) are at risk. That is not acceptable.

Reference: https://www.who.int/immunizati...

It caused autism in me.

[Anonymous Coward]

And I wasn't even a high risk kid.

So now I am trolling on slashdot, and...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

You don't say...

[gweihir]

Incidentally, the original "study" (long since found to be scientific fraud) the anti-vaxxers like to use for their "arguments" did not claim that either. It claimed that a specific competing product had that flaw but their own did not. Hence there never actually was a study that claimed that in general measles vaccination cause autism.

But anti-vaxxers do not live in this reality. They cannot recognize a fact when it stares them in the face.

Re:You don't say...

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you vaccinated autists know what is reality?

Re:You don't say...

[Anonymous Coward]

But if the original study was flawed then this study could be flawed. And of course the government is telling you it is safe and a government backed study can to this conclusion. It's a vast conspiracy. Just like chemtrails.

Re:You don't say...

[Jason Levine]

Exactly. Wakefield wasn't an anti-vaxxer originally. He wanted the MMR banned so his competing vaccine would rake in cash. When that didn't work and he smelled money from anti-vaxxers, he jumped on their bandwagon and started selling them snake oil.

Re:You don't say...

[gweihir]

Indeed. That is also why his PhD was removed: For gross misconduct. One greedy scumbag that has by now killed a lot of people by his actions.

Turns out cars, trains & airplanes dangerous,

[Kevoco]

We should definitely just walk around

Interesting thing about measles & cancer folks

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting thing about measles & cancer folks IS that IF you survive the fever temp it causes it's been shown to stop cancer (so "I am Legend" isn't really THAT far off in its premise) https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=...

* Some say it "cures it" - that I have NOT read about until I saw that link BUT many, Many, MANY YEARS AGO I stumbled upon what I said & it amazed me...

(Do I "totally believe it"? Not having been thru all that myself, NOR would I want to test it personally - not in ALL cases most likely as there's usually "outliers"/edge cases in everything since every living thing is its OWN mix of whatever in environment & internally PLUS genetic variation & general health/strength of the victim involved, etc. ...)

APK

P.S.=> Of course, you have to SURVIVE the measles infection 1st - so I guess there's GOOD in EVERY BAD... apk

You know what's frustrating?

[rsilvergun]

we've got talented people researching nonsense like this where the answer is already well known because we figured that out in the clinical trials before the vaccine went into use.

My mom, God rest her, was an anti-vaxxer and a nurse. A well trained Research Nurse for Pete's sake. This isn't anything new.

I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid. Heck, a lot of them have college degrees. If anything that's what we need to research, how do you get so many people to believe something so wrong?

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[sheramil]

I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid.

First, i thought we'd all agreed to stop calling them "anti-vaxxers" and to start calling them "pro-plague-ers". Second, they can either believe there's something wrong with their genetics, or they can believe it was something that was done to them by Big Pharma. Guess which option is more attractive, to hell with the evidence?

Re: You know what's frustrating?

[c6gunner]

They're not just stupid. Heck, a lot of them have college degrees.

It's so cute and hilarious that you think those are mutually exclusive ...

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[squiggleslash]

Conspiracies resonate. That's what it boils down to. Couple the notion that anti-vax is about a conspiracy to harm your child with the extreme fear you get of anything hurting your child during your first child's early years (I found the anxiety almost crippling myself - never enough to refuse to vaccinate on the other hand, and I found myself being furious with one of my wife's friends who started promoting this bullshit to her), and you have a bomb of doubt and uncertainty primed and ready to go off.

I think in some ways it's more surprising it's not more popular than, say, the ludicrous Benghazi or Birth Certificate type conspiracies, because there's no personal investment in either of those two. It doesn't matter if Obama had been an alien from another planet, it was never going to affect me personally. But a conspiracy of giant corporations and the government wanting to hurt my kid just so they can make more money? (Especially in an environment in which this has happened before - such as with tobacco.) I can see why someone would start to seriously worry about the truth of that, and let that worry take them over.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Registered Coward v2]

My mom, God rest her, was an anti-vaxxer and a nurse. A well trained Research Nurse for Pete's sake. This isn't anything new. I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid. Heck, a lot of them have college degrees. If anything that's what we need to research, how do you get so many people to believe something so wrong?

I wish I knew as well. It's not, IMHO, a function of education but fear and guilt that drives the anti-vaxers and gets people caught up in it. I knew and educated couple whose daughter was autistic. They blamed in on vaccines since she was diagnosed right after she was vaccinated. Trying to explain that correlation does not imply causation and that autism symptoms tend to be first noticed around the age kids get vaccinated was useless; all it did was cement their belief they were right. I would guess they did not want to believe they rolled the genetic dice and lost; they also believed their daughter would be cured if only the school system did what they wanted. I understand their anguish what I found bad was the mom would hand out anti-vax pamphlets to parents of young kids she saw at the bus stop "So they would not have the same thing happen to them." She did not like it when someone points out she is full of shit.

Wanting to believe something else was at fault, and not nature, is a powerful force. Add in the guilt form thinking you did something to harm your child is also a powerful motivator to strike back at the cause of the problem, even if it is not really the cause. Then you have celebrities that push your opinion and thus reenforce it; because by God if they are celebrities they have to be right and everyone knows the common man or women is smarter than some pointy headed intellectual .that has no common sense and is spending too much time in an ivory tower to see what is really happening.

Sometimes education can be a detriment, as you see patterns that aren't there because you are used to seeing patterns and drawing conclusions; and may have a world view where a giant vaccine conspiracy by big pharma makes sense. I've also run into plenty of highly educated idiots as well.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

Data is why I won't vaccinate. Do some research, real deep research and look at the actual data.

All disease (all) that claim vaccines cured them were already in decline in prospering and healthy, modern nations. This is real and provable through statistics.

The follow up to this is that countries (still today) that lack clean water, clean food and clean living conditions still get diseases that vaccines supposedly cure.

Again, this is real data, not superstition or guessing. And this is just the beginning of the arguments against vaccines.

But comments like this will get down voted and ignored, yet I base my choices on real science and data. The response I will get is personal attacks, jeers and accusations. Who is really the irrational ones in this discussion? The pro-vaccine crowd I believe has turned into a mob out to destroy descenting science, not descenting opinions.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't spend any brain cycles on it. Nearly half the country was demanding to see the President's birth certificate for 8 years because they were convinced he was born in Kenya. When it was produced, they said it was fake.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Nidi62]

The follow up to this is that countries (still today) that lack clean water, clean food and clean living conditions still get diseases that vaccines supposedly cure.

This'll really blow your mind. States (or areas/populations within states) that lack access to clean water, food, and living conditions also lack the medical infrastructure necessary to enact state-wide vaccination programs. Shocking, I know.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid. Heck, a lot of them have college degrees. If anything that's what we need to research, how do you get so many people to believe something so wrong?

I recommend googling an article from the Atlantic with the title "Anti-Vaxers Aren't Stupid" (sub-lined "Doctors, pharmaceutical companies, and the government have a lot of power over children's lives. That can make parents act irrationally.")

To me it is clear that both you and the Atlantic have a definition of the word "stupid" that is markedly different from mine, but perhaps it can give you some answers nonetheless.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Areyoukiddingme]

Data is why I won't vaccinate. Do some research, real deep research and look at the actual data.

I have.

Yes, improving sanitation goes a long way toward preventing plagues. The ancient Romans knew this. Medieval Europe somehow forgot it, and caused the evolution of nearly every major plague in their filthy living conditions. The cities of Medieval Europe were the real Pandora's Box, unleashing the horrors of disease on the planet that had never been seen before. No other population on Earth had as much contact with their own feces and with animal feces as Medieval Europeans did for centuries.

So the Dark Ages happened, and can't be undone. The diseases now exist. Vaccination is how we have been slowly slowly clawing our way back to the pre-Medieval state of the microscopic world. With aggressive vaccination we finally eradicated smallpox. We can't beat influenza anytime soon but we can beat rubella, mumps, and measles. And we will do it with vaccination, the same as with smallpox. Sanitation is NOT enough for all the airborne diseases. Vaccination is required.

You have data, but lack the intelligence to understand the data. You are attempting to do science, because you have formulated a hypothesis, but you are failing because you are unable to understand that your hypothesis existed long before you were born, was tested, and was found incorrect. If your hypothesis was correct, we would still have smallpox in the world today. We do not.

Obligatory personal attack: you're a moron.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[F.Ultra]

One problem is that some of them have begun to spread the idea that the plagues never happened and that big pharma simply (being the omnipotent powers that they are) rewrote every history book and falsified the stories of people dying from various deceases.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid. Heck, a lot of them have college degrees. If anything that's what we need to research, how do you get so many people to believe something so wrong?

Human intelligence didn't evolve to make us rational and scientific, it evolved partly because of random mutations and largely because they worked out well. It's quite likely that increased intelligence allowed for more complex social interactions and that those more complex social interactions in turn made intelligence an important succes factor within social groups. Our ability to be logical and scientific and to develop technology may well be no more than a side effect of that, and the people who are actually good at it are a minority.

When I was a teenager (1970's) the lack of ability to apply logic many people displayed baffled me. I would see strong opinions and convictions form just because an idea resonated in a group. Even in cases where I could point out using very basic logic that they couldn't possibly be right, they baffled me by simply ignoring logic they were more than intelligent enough to apply to the situation and reacted as if I was too stupid to see the obvious. Teenagers are much more volatile in this than adults, of course, but it wasn't and isn't limited to teenagers, adults are far from immune from it.

I think that fits in nicely with the idea that intelligence evolved in a social context, it seems to show that for many people "truth" is not about being factually correct but about bonding with others.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

"you're a moron."

And there it is. Only corporate sponsored ignorance is this consistently vile.

Look at the graphs, polio was almost entirely eradicated by quality of life improvements, the vaccine introduction did nothing. In fact, they had to get rid of the live vaccine because it GAVE people polio.

Doctor's told mom's not to touch the poop of their babies after they had their vaccine shots, or else they could get the disease.

Real people aren't this ignorant when they start finding out the facts and real data. Only those interested in propagating a lie for the benefit of money would push such a horrific thing as vaccines on people.

Re:You know what's frustrating?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's interesting that there is only the correlation you want to see there.

Look up all the tests done for a medicine. How many animal trials and then double blind studies are done to prove if a medicine works. It's years of testing and evidence and data used before it's allowed to be sold to the public.

Now go look for any study done on any vaccine that is double blind. You will find zero. This is the truth. No vaccine has been tested, or if they have, they are hiding the results.

I will wait right here. Be sure to think about this when you give tylenol to your kids, knowing that it's safe because it's been tested. But what do you think when you give your kid a vaccine? No tests done on it ever. Not one.

You may be inclined to say "of course they tested, that would be TOTALLY CRAZY not to test vaccines!" And then call me a moron like the other guy did here. But you will see, the excuse is "it's unethical to test vaccines". Think of the irony there. Ethical to test penis enlargement medicine but not vaccines. But that is the truth.

It's ethical to give it to kids without testing it, but it's not ethical to test it? Oh well, call me names. The future of our society is at stake, but name calling will cure ignorance and insanity. Because you really believe science is on your side, without any actual proof of it, just faith, you will join the hoard and attack those that dissent.

Eventually you will win, vaccines will be manditory. And some day a medicine you don't agree with will be forced on you, but it will be too late to dissent then.

The real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

... We are wasting good research dollars proving something we already know. These dollars could have been spent curing, treating, preventing Autism. Nice job Anti-vaxxers.

Millenia long study

[Plumpaquatsch]

Measles can kill you. The mortality under very best conditions is 1 out of a thousand. Complications may include pneumonia, ear infections, bronchitis (either viral bronchitis or secondary bacterial bronchitis), and brain inflammation.[64] Brain inflammation from measles has a mortality rate of 15%. While there is no specific treatment for brain inflammation from measles, antibiotics are required for bacterial pneumonia, sinusitis, and bronchitis that can follow measles.

Re:Millenia long study

[Anonymous Coward]

In the current European outbreak there's been ~30 deaths from almost a 100k cases. And those were not 'the very best conditions', only on average better than on other continents.

Re:Millenia long study

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot Measles extra-fun complications of permanent blindness and/or deafness.

Re:Millenia long study

[MightyMartian]

Let's also mention here that measles is one of the most contagious diseases in the world. It can spread very quickly. There simply is no better way to prevent measles than vaccination. The proof is in the pudding. The disease had become so rare in much of the developed world because of wide-scale vaccination campaigns (that I might add are among the most successful public health initiatives ever instituted), and now that some pretty evil people and a pack of simpering halfwits have decided in sufficient numbers to withhold vaccinations from their children, we're now seeing outbreaks that thirty years ago would have been all but impossible.

We're living in an age which morons suddenly are given equal weight to long established science.

Re:Interesting thing about measles & cancer fo

[Anonymous Coward]

Did it also cure your AIDS that you are immune to now?

NO LAWS

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Without public healthcare, let them do whatever they want; you are vaccinated so you are safe.

2) With public healthcare, let them do whatever they want; but CHARGE them for the added costs if they need care resulting from the lack of vaccination. You are vaccinated so you are safe.

3) Stop trying to save stupid people from themselves! We have too many people, some volunteer; let them. Yes, their kids are innocent but their parents are not... besides, odds are greater they die in a car accident while parents on on their cell.

4) Such studies must single out the preservatives in the vaccinations; it wasn't an issue with the shots themselves but the added chemicals. Furthermore, a move towards individual shots happened because shared vials can settle and if not properly shaken gives inconsistent exposures. On top of the already different reaction rates and other environmental exposures which make it difficult to study such things in the 1st place.

5) P.R. They don't just make smoking healthy for 30 years longer then delay remedies for decades longer; they have new tricks to play such as smearing the whole industry with crazy conspiracies to hide themselves and undermine legitimate concerns.... while doing all the usual tactics. These offensive tactics stem right from hiring retired military psychology warfare experts (I know a few.) Divide, obscure, undermine the ability to even focus on common enemy.

Divisive advertising campaigns leveraging social media have been a big thing for a while now. Haven't you noticed by now? Don't like our product? well, your one of THEM, anything you say is a lie from the bubble you live in you sub-human!

It's easy to smear any demographic with bad representative samples; which if you have $$$ and are organized (if not creating the situation) the opposition doesn't stand much chance from being stereotyped badly.

6) Good luck with your "imaginary" health and environmental problems created by industries you not only empowered with government but your susceptibility to tribal based propaganda campaigns. You will probably smear the people trying to save you from .... hell, look at global warming deniers for an example... they put out a lot of HATE against people trying to save their children and their jobs etc.

Re:NO LAWS

[MightyMartian]

Oh fuck off. We know the problem here is those with compromised immune systems, or very young children who cannot yet be vaccinated. Jesus Christ, are you retarded or just an ignoramus?

Re:NO LAWS

[Anonymous Coward]

We know the problem here is those with compromised immune systems, or very young children who cannot yet be vaccinated.

Maybe find solutions that target the problem instead of trying to trample on the natural rights of everyone else?

Re:Interesting thing about measles & cancer fo

[MightyMartian]

And here I was thinking all we needed to do was use your hosts file in our genome.

Never had AIDS (can't get it)... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Never had AIDS - found out 36++ yrs. ago I can't get it (don't have the CC5 receptor hook it latches onto cells with). I'd be DEAD by now if I did have it.

* Some of us are just born lucky!

APK

P.S.=> I thank God for that one in my life - I've seen how miserably it kills people (1 person close to me, bummed me out - watched him WITHER like a rose, 220 lb. guy, from wealthy family, down to nothing - funny part is, I was @ the NYState Fair (held in my hometown every year) in 1989 w/ my then girlfriend & he said "Alex, you're a good looking guy - how about you come & make $ (in today's money rougly) 5,000/wk. being a 'male dancer' w/ me? My girlfriend's NAILS bit into my hand (hurt too, lol) & I declined - I had recently graduated from the 1st bachelor degree I earned & was doing ok so I didn't need that (the $ sounded good though but, he is dead from it, this I am SURE of (heterosexual too, had women HANGING OFF HIS UNDERWEAR practically too, & it is TOUGH for a male non-anal sex practicer to GET AID to begin with assuming they don't "shoot up dope"))... apk

I wish I was that good & could but? apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Hosts efficacy recently vs. threats & results in https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://yro.slashdot.org/comme... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://linux.slashdot.org/com... https://news.slashdot.org/comm... https://apple.slashdot.org/com... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://search.slashdot.org/co... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://apple.slashdot.org/com... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://science.slashdot.org/c... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... https://it.slashdot.org/commen... https://it.slashdot.org/commen...

* That's only recently while I've been on Linux (July 2018) & 100's of times vs. MANY other botnets/malwares etc. in the past circa 2006-early 2018 while I was on Windows: CONCRETE VERIFIABLE UNDENIABLE REALITY (see those links as proof). ... & that's ONLY what /. reported on (there were FAR more /. OMITTED reporting on)

APK

P.S.=> "It's working: Neville... it's working!" - "I AM LEGEND" + HOSTNAME USE IS DOWN IN MALWARE https://unit42.paloaltonetwork... (my ACT OF FAITH is JUSTIFIED by fact)... apk

anti-vaxxing

[Anonymous Coward]

the rights preferred method of aborting your post birth child.

Measles Can Cause Deafness

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a known fact.
If you didnt give your child a measles vacinnation YOU are a cunt.

No debate required.

Fake news.

[Anonymous Coward]

So-called measles. It's all fake.

Post Intellectualism

[sdinfoserv]

Studies like these, no matter how definitive, no longer matter in the US. Decades is slashing taxes, gutting education, economic stratification, demise of stable middle class, and oligarchical fed misinformation has eviscerated critical thinking skills for the general population.
Exacerbated by the rise of the web giving any dolt the power to publish any crazy unsubstantiated thought, armchair WebMD physicians, and instant gratification un-social media the US has plunged into ignorant tribalism. The masses only believe utterances from another member of their self selected tribe, no matter how ludicrous - Fox, MSNBC, or Flat Earth Society for that matter, what ever "tribe" you've associated yourself with, anything said contrary to the mantra of the tribe is not only to be disbelieved, but the messenger attacked and discredited at any cost. It's identical to religious faith; the definition of which is unfettered belief no matter the preponderance of evidence to the contrary. A sad period of post intellectualism.

may not prevent measles, either...

[js290]

Largest measles epidemic in North America in a decade--Quebec, Canada, 2011: contribution of susceptibility, serendipity, and superspreading events. - PubMed - NCBI https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...

vaccine immunity is weaker than natural immunity

[Anonymous Coward]

Infants were formerly protected from measles because their mothers shared their natural immunity with their kids. Breast milk antibodies FTW.

Vaccine-derived immunity is much weaker than natural immunity and wears off over time, which is why a large number of the "outbreaks" have been composed of fully-vaccinated individuals.

Mothers who have not had the measles themselves have a much weaker immunity to share with their infant.

There's a word for that...

[MadCat221]

"...since a controversial and ultimately retracted 1998 paper..."

Fraudulent. The word you want is Fraudulent.

Just keep an open mind to some of the complaints

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some big questions floating around out there. First, a disclaimer - I'm not trying to prove measles vaccines are the cause of autism.

Now that I've said that, I've found most people who have issues with vaccinations are not against the theory of immunology. It is the implementation in the vaccine. Does the vaccination itself have a sufficient quality of weakened virus or parts thereof to cause an immune reaction? And is it kept weak enough to not cause an infectious reaction (this has happened before)? And is it kept clean from impurities (like other viruses) or certain chemical preservatives that can cause reactions?

My point is that one should not react to parents that oppose vaccines as if they are crazy or nuts. - they are in many cases simply concerned for their children. And many of them have done extensive research.

My suggestion is to open up access to the vaccine material itself for independent testing. And let companies paid by anti-vaxxers have half of each lot tested. Let it prove itself. Right now, it would be a felony to, say get hold of some vaccines and have an independent lab test it. Why is that? There are so many things that are open to testing. If a person or organization uses it for that purpose, it can be done openly in the same manner. Success by that sort of independent testing (not any scare tactics), would be a far more successful and ethical method to convince "anti-vaxxers".

Re:Just keep an open mind to some of the complaint

[MightyMartian]

That's like suggesting that Creationist institutes should have a voice in evolutionary biology. It's rubbish. Science isn't an act of diplomacy, and most certainly medical science is not. There are no doubts in the research world about the efficacy and safety of vaccines. The risks are known and are managed. Allowing antivaxxer scam artists an even bigger pretense of being informed interlocutors will do more harm than good.

Re:I'm not anti-vaccine

[jeff4747]

But as a SCIENTIST I was very fucking cautious from then on and he got no further vaccines containing thimerasol regardless of what happened to other peoples kids.

As a SCIENTIST, you would have found that thiomersal was removed from childhood vaccines in 2000. Also as a SCIENTIST, you would have noticed that there was no decrease in the rate of autism diagnoses after 2000.

Every toddler has symptoms of autism. That's what the "terrible twos" is about. What makes it diagnosed as autism is when they keep those symptoms when they are older. Which means autism can only be diagnosed as they get older. Which corresponds to the age at which they get a series of vaccines, including MMR.

Thanks for wasting money, anti-vaxers

[Anonymous Coward]

So now we're putting money into research for the sole purpose of convincing those who weren't convinced by prior scientific studies. Good going! These researchers should be banned from ever receiving a grant again.

Re:I'm not anti-vaccine

[king neckbeard]

That's because the early symptoms of autism present around the same time as scheduled vaccines.

Not about safety

[Anonymous Coward]

The vaccine paranoiacs are not interesting in "vaccine safety". They are concerned about power and control over their kids.

Bad advice!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't. I know first hand. In this day and age, you'll be put on list.

Wrongthink Wrongspeak

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not allowed to say that you get ill from a flu shot. Doesn't matter if you or I do have that issue. The scientists say it is physically not possible. We are "antivaxxers" even though I know that I, personally, have more vaccines than most anyone here because I'm a miltary contractor. I just don't get that vaccine unless it's mandatory for deployment, which it usually isn't. When I get old I might change my mind.

Re: Wrongthink Wrongspeak

[Anonymous Coward]

Bull. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Oh you Buddy Fucker!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apoc.Famine says he's anti-disease"

Do you Four Horsmen have some kind of quota or office pool going or something? Does Satan pay bonuses for "in project scope" kills? I'm not an antivaxxer but I am anti-buddy fucker and you're totally screwing over Apoc.Pestilence here. I'm sure Apoc.Death doesn't care either way but how the hell is Apoc.Pestilence supposed to feed his little demons back in the Pit...oh wait... :D :D :D

Primary Funding Source: Novo Nordisk Foundation

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh.

recreational vaccination

[astrofurter]

What's up with this MMR vaccine? The forced-vax nazis are pushing it _really_ hard. Which makes me wonder why.

Measles and mumps are minor annoyance illnesses. So it's fair to call this an elective or recreational vaccine. Its iatrogenic risk certainly outweighs the tiny expected benefit. Yet, I repeat, we see the forced-vax nazis pushing it really hard in the media.

Let's assume the authors of this study, dismissing the risk of autism, are honest and courageous scientists. Not the usual academic brown nosers saying what they think their peers want/demand to hear. Any not just yet more paid shills for Big Pharma.

So, again, why are nazis pushing this recreational vaccine so hard? Maybe, just maybe, it has other nasty side effects. Perhaps it renders people infertile. Or fucks with their hormones. Or causes non-autism brain problems. Shit, that's it: it probably damages one's brain in such a way that one becomes a nazi!

See, this is what happens when a small, vocal, and really very well financed minority starts agitating for forced medical procedures on non-consenting patients. People start to speculate wildly. And because the malice of that well-financed nazi minority is obvious from both their words and the public policy they propose, even the wildest speculation cannot fully be dismissed.

The number of people opposed to vaccination for genuinely dangerous diseases like polio is very close to zero. There are very very few actual "anti-vaxxers" in the world. But there are a whole fuck ton of people who think recreational vaccination is risky and stupid.

Re:recreational vaccination

[Cederic]

why are nazis pushing this recreational vaccine so hard?

Skilled medical professionals seeking eradication of community destroying diseases are now nazis?

Fucking hell.

Just what the fuck is a recreational vaccine anyway? Since when did recreational mean 'strong contributor to longevity and quality of life'?

Re:recreational vaccination

[Opportunist]

Because the statistics for MMR really favor vaccination.

Chance to contract any of the 3? Near certainty as soon as an infected person only WAS in the vicinity of where you're going.
Chance of lasting side effects? About 1 per 1000 infections.
Chance of lasting side effects of the vaccine? About 1 per Million vaccinations.

Measles and mumps are more than "minor annoyances". They do have very serious lasting effects if you happen to contract them at a critical time, like when you're less than a year old, pregnant or when your immune system is already compromised. Side effects of Mumps include potential infertility (in males), spontaneous abortion (in pregnant females), encephalitis, brain inflammation (rare, but potentially lethal) and deafness. With measles you're looking at pneumonia (about 6% of cases), encephalitis (0.1% of infections, 20% mortality, 30% lasting brain damage) and a mortality rate of about 1 in 1000 (according to the CDC) or 3 in thousands (according to EU statistics), aside of a few less severe complications, some of which can surface months or even years after the infection.

So yes, I dare say there is a GOOD reason for pushing towards MMR vaccinations. Even if you're not interested in the quarter reports of pharma corporations but only in the well being of your child.

Re:recreational vaccination

[Anonymous Coward]

So, again, why are nazis pushing this recreational vaccine so hard? Maybe, just maybe, it has other nasty side effects. Perhaps it renders people infertile. Or fucks with their hormones. Or causes non-autism brain problems. Shit, that's it: it probably damages one's brain in such a way that one becomes a nazi!

I think it turns people into conspiracy theorists.

How else can you explain the sudden and massive surge in you numbskulls?

Anti-vaxers are not very smart.

[Askmum]

In other news, first measles infection in the Netherlands in 5 years. A properly inoculated population will be able to cope with this, but the last epidemic in 2013 was allowed to spread because the more religious part of the country has a tendecy not to inoculate.

measles cause less death than the measles vaccine

[Anonymous Coward]

No word that measles cause less death than the measles vaccine does.
Did they examine black kids vaxxed at 3 years of age or less? Because they show a pretty solid correlation between vaxxine and autism.