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Trump Blockade of Huawei Fizzles In European 5G Rollout (bloomberg.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: Last summer, the Trump administration started a campaign to convince its European allies to bar China's Huawei from their telecom networks. Bolstered by the success of similar efforts in Australia and New Zealand, the White House sent envoys to European capitals with warnings that Huawei's gear would open a backdoor for Chinese spies. The U.S. even threatened to cut off intelligence sharing if Europe ignored its advice. So far, not a single European country has banned Huawei. Europe, caught in the middle of the U.S.-China trade war, has sought to balance concerns about growing Chinese influence with a desire to increase business with the region's second-biggest trading partner. With no ban in the works, Huawei is in the running for contracts to build 5G phone networks, the ultra-fast wireless technology Europe's leaders hope will fuel the growth of a data-based economy.
The U.K.'s spy chief has indicated that a ban on Huawei is unlikely, citing a lack of viable alternatives to upgrade British telecom networks. Italy's government has dismissed the U.S. warnings as it seeks to boost trade with China. In Germany, authorities have proposed tighter security rules for data networks rather than outlawing Huawei. France is doing the same after initially flirting with the idea of restrictions on Huawei. Governments listened to phone companies such as Vodafone Group Plc, Deutsche Telekom AG, and Orange SA, who warned that sidelining Huawei would delay the implementation of 5G by years and add billions of euros in cost. While carriers can also buy equipment from the likes of Ericsson AB, Nokia Oyj, and Samsung Electronics Co., industry consultants say Huawei's quality is high, and the company last year filed 5,405 global patents, more than double the filings by Ericsson and Nokia combined. And some European lawmakers have been wary of Cisco Systems Inc., Huawei's American rival, since Edward Snowden leaked documents revealing the National Security Agency's use of U.S.-made telecom equipment for spying.
The U.K.'s spy chief has indicated that a ban on Huawei is unlikely, citing a lack of viable alternatives to upgrade British telecom networks. Italy's government has dismissed the U.S. warnings as it seeks to boost trade with China. In Germany, authorities have proposed tighter security rules for data networks rather than outlawing Huawei. France is doing the same after initially flirting with the idea of restrictions on Huawei. Governments listened to phone companies such as Vodafone Group Plc, Deutsche Telekom AG, and Orange SA, who warned that sidelining Huawei would delay the implementation of 5G by years and add billions of euros in cost. While carriers can also buy equipment from the likes of Ericsson AB, Nokia Oyj, and Samsung Electronics Co., industry consultants say Huawei's quality is high, and the company last year filed 5,405 global patents, more than double the filings by Ericsson and Nokia combined. And some European lawmakers have been wary of Cisco Systems Inc., Huawei's American rival, since Edward Snowden leaked documents revealing the National Security Agency's use of U.S.-made telecom equipment for spying.
Huawei is still a tentacle of the Chinese Communist Party regardless of what Orange Treason says.
In some European circles, this threat from the Trump administration may have seemed to resemble 50 lashes with a wet noodle.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Time for the US to find new friends it can trust to keep secrets and who will support the USA.
We already have them - Russia and North Korea.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Trump doesn't get basic shit. You don't threaten people to get what you want except as a last resort - not a first resort. This is why he sucks at "dealmaking" and has basically failed at every opportunity to do so.
This was a very winnable objective.
We know Cisco devices cant be trusted because the US government has already been caught installing backdoor spyware into Cisco devices at customs. We should ban Cisco as well as Huawei.
Take that Bossy Betty. I mean USA. Threw a big old hussy fit and nobody rewarded it. Finally cried wolf one two many times.
USA: Caught and proven to be bugging US-made routers for spying.
China: Accused of but not proven to be bugging China-made routers for spying.
Remind me again why we shouldn't trust Chinese hardware?
Cisco couldn't compete on a level playing field with Huawei, so they asked the Government to help them out.
The UK allows the US to operate military bases on its territory. That's a gift that is worth a pile of gold.
The US is revealed to operate illegal spying operations on its allies.
What's all this "full Communist" nonsense? I think your view of world politics might be a bit off-balance - perhaps read some current affairs? Or just increase the soma dosage...?
When the USA turns off the flow of raw real time data what will EU nations do?
Get a copy of it from the Chinese ?
Well, except to the US domestically. But spying-wise, all telco equipment is compromised, and the US, having no honor whatsoever, is not above spying on allies. Those "allies" do remember that now and are reacting accordingly. Also, there is talk about removing the US ambassador from Germany, because some feel he is behaving inappropriately by directly threatening allies.
As a security expert, the whole thing is basically a non-issue. You always need real end-to-end encryption with no "backdoors" or any such totalitarian and moronic nonsense for a connection to be secure. But as soon as you have that, you do not care about a compromised network, as long as it still transmits your data. Other things, like location, are compromised anyways, no matter who delivers the equipment, because the network tech is not really secure against that anyways. The solution here is to know that and simply switch off your phone when you do not want to be tracked. As extra protection, have a removable battery, something I insist anyways. (No, I will not buy your crap design with planned obsolescence by not removable battery. Does not matter what shiny new feature it has or how great it looks. Go defraud somebody else.)
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
The US does not have friends. It takes honor and integrity for that and the US does not even understand that concept. The US has vassals. Looks like Europe finally found some backbone, because they do not actually _need_ US support for anything. They can screw up things all by themselves. (Judging from all that really stupid Internet legislation recently.) And they can buy cheaper and better Chinese equipment, because the security of that equipment is not actually a factor as it all is compromised. If we ever see a major war (I really, really do hope not...) all that shiny infrastructure will stop working.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
The BND needs the flow of US data everyday.
Can you clarify this? Exactly who is going to attack Germany if they miss a day of American supplied data?
It will have no effect. Or maybe it will have a positive effect because all that moronic, incompetent focus on "data" has yet to catch a single terrorist before the act. And the main purpose of that data, spying on innocent citizens, is basically a slow road to fascism, to the less that works, the better.
Hence I think it would be hugely preferably to not have that data, even if it was completely free. Also note that a lot of the data-taps are on EU (or British) soil, would be a shame if something were to happen to them...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
China: Accused of but not proven
We aren't talking about China the overall entity (though if we were that's still enough reason for concern).
No, we are talking about a company the serially does whatever it can to steal trade secrets from other companies. Even if you didn't believe whatever they captured was going back to China proper, why would you trust anything confidential to their gear?
It's not proven that I, personally, will die if I jump in a Yellowstone hot spring. But damned if I'm going to do it when others have died before me.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Or as Melania calls it: "date night". :-)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
There's little doubt, as your post implies, that Western Europe is by design beholden to the Americans for access to the most current information surreptitiously acquired by our usually efficient TLAs.
Now, let's say you're the nation who embraced the job of world's policeman (I know, cavalierly risking gender bias accusations) since the end of WWII.
Strategically, do you now abandon those generational alliances because European leaders mock your fearless leader, who is, quite fairly, a rather easy target?.?.?.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Or as Melania calls it: "date night". :-)
Damn. I'd prefer that joke in the morning, when I'd be wasting coffee pressure-washing the keyboard, instead of half decent scotch in the evening.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Basically everybody does that. There are countless examples of the US doing that as well. It does not matter. "Trade secrets" are valid only for a few years, even if empires in the downward cycle (like the US) often try to artificially change that. Fact is that after a few years, the competition can do it as well and better. Or do you really think Huawei would sell enterprise products they do not understand and hence cannot support? Think again. Copying the designs is not actually a sign that they cannot do it themselves (even though non-engineers and bad engineers often take it for one), it is just a sign that the original design was pretty much finished and that another, independent design process would have arrived pretty much at the same end-point. So why not make it a standard ans make it the same end-product, so customers can directly replace one with the other without having to analyze the differences in detail? And at that time, it is not a trade secret, it is the state-of-the-art. Mass-produced things, like screws, connectors, etc. are standardized at that point and enter the public domain. It is the only sane thing to do.
The utterly hilarious thing is that the US, that "heaven of capitalism" suddenly becomes protectionist and opposed to a free market when they are not the ones doing it to others, but somebody does it to them. Talk about double-standards and ignoring reality.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
You seem to be a propaganda shill. Despicable.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Propaganda is propaganda. You know, "lies" and misdirection. But how would you understand that...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
How else are they going to get copies of Angel Merkel's phone calls in exchange for nudes?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
You really do not understand how that works. You think you can tap an internet cable without it actually running over those bases? That cable will just find a new route. Or/and it may get link encryption. The whole threat is utterly empty and just a show for people without a clue.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Germany thanks the USA by going Communist.
Having universal health care does not make you communist, moron.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Most of these posts read like they're from the 1950's era UnAmerican Activities Committee
FULL COMMUNISM! FULL COMMUNISM! FULL COMMUNISM!
AMERICA PROTECTS! YOU OWE US!
Nobody quite does propaganda like the United States, but it only really works on Americans who have never traveled outside the awful Midwestern shithole state they live in.
So, given the state of US cellular networks and coverage and their old, sick, narcolepic turtle pace in expanding, maybe they'd be quite happy to see the rest of the world get delayed in 5G deployments - maybe then US networks wouldn't look that bad and and the other hand they could blame their slow pace and lacking coverage on the Chinese, oh my:)
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
A country can not simply ban a company from the market.
How exactly would that work?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The U.K.'s spy chief has indicated that a ban on Huawei is unlikely, citing a lack of viable alternatives to upgrade British telecom networks.
... is pretty lame.
I mean, it isn't as if Huawei hasn't been caught spying on people through their phones, and stealing others' inventions.
To me, that's the equivalent of saying, "We don't know how to build the phone infrastructure ourselves, so we'll just buy it from Russia."
Where's the difference?
I wouldn't let Huawei build my phone infrastructure any more than I'd voluntarily feed my private phone conversations to the NSA.
The EU has taken careful note of how the US treats New Zealand, Japan, Poland.
New Zealand: no defensive alliance with the US, not covered by the US nuclear umbrella. No free trade agreement, since Trump torpedoed TPPA. No actionable intelligence provided to prevent terrorist attack. Thanks a lot, USA.
Japan: not consulted in US negotiations with North Korea. Indirectly and directly targeted in trade war. Thanks a lot, USA.
Poland: still reeling from US rapprochement with Russia, now told (by Trump) that US no longer regards NATO as an absolute commitment. Targeted (as part of EU) by US trade war. Thanks a lot, USA.
That's how the USA treats its friends. And we should want to be in that company - why, exactly?
the ultra-fast wireless technology Europe's leaders hope will fuel the growth of a data-based economy.
Every time I read this “argument”, I wonder: what’s with the big rush? Frankly, is 5G going to change our lives compared to 4G? I doubt it.
I understand that there are actors who stand to benefit (and may therefore be impatient):
But for the bulk of ordinary consumers? Yes, when visiting very crowded places, they'll get acceptable connectivity in conditions where 4G might be subpar. But that will concern a fraction of people, a fraction of the time in their daily life. Aside from that, nothing terribly new and exciting. If so, 5G won't really be a game changer for consumers or even for the overall economy.
And in that case, why not keep improving the current 4G network until better, cheaper, more trusted 5G options become available, instead of taking risks rushing with the cheapest hardware offering from a problematic supplier?
Oof. Maybe just a tad harsh on the US? It's not exactly the shining beacon of white nobility that nationalists like to claim. But wow. Talk about vassal states first. The US has some imperialist tendencies but they're quite mild compared to other empires, both current and in the past. If you think being aligned with the U.S. is a vassal situation, try being under the thumb of China or Russia for a while, or Iran, or Britain about 150 years ago. Similar arguments for telecom equipment. Use US gear and the US will listen in. That's been shown. Use Chinese gear and the Chinese government will listen. 100% quaranteed. Use European equipment and .... well those governments are less likely to spy, but the gear will be billions more and years late. Not great choices, but.... well, we live in the real world. Pick your poison.
I don't think so. Harsh, yes, but also realistic. Look up "American Exceptionalism". It basically says they are top dog and better than everybody else. With that mind-set, you do not have friends, because friendship implies some level of equality. That some others are no better does not impact that state of affairs at all.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Not catch terrorists?
Because the US has forgot the history lessons:
Wars that fought on falsified or exaggerate accusations are doomed to fail, even if every battle was won.
Countries running on populism and getting too greedy are doomed to be defeated.
The Europeans (and the Russians) should have passed their Chinese classical literature class.
It was generally considered that Trump barely has enough intelligence to make coherent sentences, so he certainly did not have any to share.
This is all about FUD to try and keep sales for US companies.
Trump is such a joke that he is making the US a laughing stock too which is making America worse.
Supporting a Communist nation after the advice USA is Germany going Communist.
Advice isn't enough. America also needs to provide evidence. So far they have none.
If the Trump administration continues to lie about this, they may even start to lose their credibility.
I wouldn't let Huawei build my phone infrastructure any more than I'd voluntarily feed my private phone conversations to the NSA.
I would let Huawei build my phone infrastructure to protect my private phone conversations from the NSA.
Why does the US need to risk its own intelligence to provide evidence to nations that are been given US intelligence?
If the US could demonstrate a Huawei router collecting and transmitting data, or show how the firmware is compromised, how would that "risk" US intelligence? It would be disclosing facts that China would presumably already know.
They haven't demonstrated anything because they have no evidence.
That's a bunch of accusations, innuendos and opinions, not evidence. The settled court cases don't show much either - it is well known that American companies use the legal system and their deep pockets to stop competition.
Try again.
Yes, well, Trump attempts to dictate "Thou shalt not purchase from company XYZ". No proof, just an assertion that they are not trustworthy. Because the country caught intercepting Cisco shipments and introducing backdoors into them is soooo trustworthy.
He's being an arrogant ass, continuing the usual foreign policy of the American government. Individuals Americans may be nice, but the US government is full of itself (and has been for decades, nothing to do with the current president).
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
They can’t lose their credibility because they have none.
-- Cheers!
Yeah, not quite. Power is always relative, not absolute. Money is the ultimate power, and USA GDP is currently 24% of world GDP. That sounds like a lot, however GW Bush inherited a USA with over 30% of world GDP. USA isn't growing as fast as the rest of the world, and this is making the USA much less relevant on the world stage. We've really moved on from a bi-polar world to a tri-polar world: USA, Europe and China are the three big players. And when it goes from 2 to 3 players it's much easier to exclude any one player from any one game, such as how USA failed to stop Europe from working with China in this case. The fact is, EU+China can do their own deals now and ignore America. That's why going from 35+% of world GDP down to under 25% of world GDP is in fact a game-changer for the USA. People are more free to ignore you.
https://www.networkworld.com/article/2223272/60-minutes-torpedoes-huawei-in-less-than-15-minutes.html - There's mountains of evidence, you're just a moron. If you think this has anything at all to do with Trump, doubly so.
Gee your mama should wash your mouth out with soap. All that article claims is that Huawei copied US corporation's designs, that is IP theft. What that article is basically describing is what the US did to build up it's economy during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, stealing IP from European companies shielded by the US courts who did not see any reason to punish US citizens for stealing IP from a bunch of foreigners. Now China is doing it to you, so stop yelling **UNFAIR* like a whiny little bitch, suck it up and start out innovating them. The Trump admin is wants to ban Huawei because it is claiming Huawei is using their products to conduct a NSA style spying and eavesdropping operation on behalf of China who they seem to think is warehousing the data like the US govt. does with the NSA and it's multi billion dollar datacenter. Apparently Europe should be alarmed at Huawei spying on them (even though the WH can't prove it) but they should buy lots of off the shelf US network equipment that gets loaded up with spyware at a NSA facility before it is shipped over the pond. If anything the Europeans have more of an incentive to ban Cisco over spying (since the NSA has already been caught with its pants down installing malware on Cisco equipment) than they do banning Huawei. If the Chinese intelligence evert gets caught spiking Huawei gear with malware like their American colleagues are so fond of doing they'll be banned until that can be proven the Chinese have a leg up on the US in this regard.
Naw, they'll whine and cry, and then their next administration will pay the companies to replace all the devices.
This. Show us the proof or sod off. Huawei has been more open than any US 5G manufacturer, offering access to source code and CAD files for verification. All Cisco has done is swear that the NSA isn't intercepting its hardware to install backdoors any more, probably because they hard coded enough of their own in that it need not bother any more.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The data includes information about international shipping and trade security, what is likely to happen at an upcoming OPEC meeting, etc.
Germany's need for the data is economic, not military.
I agree; if they need "evidence" they're not a close military ally, they're an arms-length ally, and they should get their shared data at an arm's length.
If they want cheek-and-jowl access, they need to show cheek-and-jowl trust.
Use US gear and the US will listen in. That's been shown. Use Chinese gear and the Chinese government will listen. 100% quaranteed. Use European equipment and .... well those governments are less likely to spy, but the gear will be billions more and years late. Not great choices, but.... well, we live in the real world. Pick your poison.
With the equipment in question, there are only 3 suppliers, and that is unlikely to change. One supplier is from China. The other two are from Europe.
The US doesn't make this equipment. The US is demanding that European countries buy from one of the European suppliers if they want to continue information sharing. It won't be late, it is already developed.
The funniest part is the Chinese shills who are pretending to be Very Superior European Bigots, while arguing against the idea that European governments should be able to trust European companies more than Chinese companies. Whuuuuu?
Actually, the Australian government banned Huawei kit from being used in the National Broadband Network (probably at the behest of the US)
I wish Australia would stop being the lap dogs of the US and doing stuff just because the US happens to want us to do it.
"all that moronic, incompetent focus on "data" has yet to catch a single terrorist before the act" Wrong, at least in the U.S. There was the recent case of that fellow that worked for the Coast Guard collecting ammo and guns for what he hoped would be his assault on the Democrats. Had a kill list and everything.
Allies spy on the U.S. as well. It is a good thing, it prevents surprises.
Nations do not have friends. Global hegemons do indeed have vassals, as do local hegemons.
And Europe without outside security umbrella is Europe where history goes back to what it was before it. Warring empires fighting for survival against neighbours. It's quite possible that China might be able to replace US if need arises to fill this role in a century or so, but considering Chinese culture, demands placed on its European vassals would be several orders of magnitude harsher.
And another oh-so-superior Europe supremacist jumps in the conversation to crap all over Americans and remind them just how stupid and culturally backwards we are.
Well someone has to. You seem to forget it in your superiority.
If anyone wonders why NATO failed, just refer to this comment.
Huh? It failed? As far as I can tell the USA wants more money put into it.
Have fun with your new buddies in Communist China.
Your brain doesn't appear to be working. If you've already had your morning coffee then may I suggest calling 911, you may have just had a stroke.
Bet they won't pay for your defense or let you rip them off for $150 billion a year in unfair trade agreements.
You repeat this ad nauseum despite having been told with references all over again that the figure is bullshit. Your inability to learn from the falsehood of your fox and friends talking points is precisely why it is important people constantly remind you of how moronic you guys can actually be.
So much for fizzling. Our defense intelligence service neither couldn't nor wouldn't guarantee that Huawei would not be using their technology to spy or disrupt vital areas of infrastructure, so nobody wanted to take a chance. It's as simple as that.
One of the big points were that despite the whole thing hinged on the fact that a Chinese company would have to submit to total government control in case the government wanted to, and the blatantly obviously solution would be to move Huawei out of China to cut that control, nobody even considered that at Huawei which made it obvious that the government control was a central part of business, and thus that it is a core goal to place technology everywhere that the Chinese government could control easily if it so desired.
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
The GCHQ needs US support globally and US support in Ireland.
Ummm, what?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
>> And some European lawmakers have been wary of Cisco Systems Inc
Yeah. The motto of Cisco is: "A backdoor a day keeps your data far away."
Cisco = Backdoors with a router
Nobody needs that.
aaaaaaa
And another oh-so-superior Europe supremacist jumps in the conversation to crap all over Americans and remind them just how stupid and culturally backwards we are. We know, we've heard it a million times. If anyone wonders why NATO failed, just refer to this comment. Have fun with your new buddies in Communist China. Bet they won't pay for your defense or let you rip them off for $150 billion a year in unfair trade agreements. Good riddance.
You seem quite upset to no longer be getting as shafted as you imply you were.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
>> I wonder what happens next.
What happens next is that you have tu upgrade your data plan or your internet connection, because all of your data gets replicated to at least 3 different destinations, so you use 3x more bandwidth in general.
aaaaaaa
Germany thanks the USA by going Communist. Having universal health care does not make you communist, moron.
No, but claiming that it is better than the insurance-based healthcare the US has, tend to make you appear dumb.
If you dig deeper you'll see that it is horribly expensive and the prime target for 'cost reductions', making it sub-standard at best in real life. At least that is how it works here in Denmark - long waits for non-emergency treatment, severely understaffed, way too early release after treatment... and a tendency to host lingering department-wide infections due to rushed daily routines and sub-standard cleaning.
It is better. Your particular example might not be the most efficient but would you rather blow through your life savings because you broke an arm and picked up an infection?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
But in tit for tat, if the UK kicks the US off its soil then it's going to need a new carrier group to replace the Diego GarcÃa base. If the whole of the EU kicks it out, that's probably a long-term saving for the US Army because of the reduction in maintenance costs, but it's a bit short-term cost to restructure. It's a lose-lose scenario.
Re "It would be disclosing facts"
Has any nation ever talked openly about its actual spy methods?
All the US has to do tell the EU governments what will be needed for them to keep US secrets safe.
If EU nations can't meet that then the US no longer has to share its intelligence with any EU nation.
The US does not have to talk in the open or "demonstrate" in any way what it understands is a risk to US methods.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Did the UK ever give up on spying in Ireland?
Ireland is still getting collected on by the UK and USA to ensure the "peace process" works.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The only link you give you CLAIM shows evidence, but all it is are the CLAIMS of people that Huawei did stuff, nothing actually true. Can we claim Trump HAS colluded with Russia because there's a lot of people who claim he has, and even investigations into him doing it...?
Any nation that rejects a long term US offer of support will not get further access to US intelligence.
The US is not going to risk methods to work with nations that won't support the USA. Politically, in terms of decades of shared base access.
Once a nation selects not to work with the USA, then the US will not support that nation.
What the US gave from any shared base/site globally, the US can stop giving any nation access to.
The UK was clear on its 1960-1970's Diego Garcia agreement.
The US was also very clear in the 1970's with the UK on what happens when such agreements are altered.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
On the contrary, if they don't need evidence, then they are fools, not allies.
So it works about the same in Denmark as in the US, then.
I agree; if they need "evidence" they're not a close military ally, they're an arms-length ally, and they should get their shared data at an arm's length.
If they want cheek-and-jowl access, they need to show cheek-and-jowl trust.
Let's not forget however, that the USA is at present at war with it's own intelligence agencies.
So the threats are sort of weird - threatening to withhold intelligence that the CinC claims is all false anyhow. Isn't that helping our new enemies that used to be our allies?
Christ, this reads like schizophrenia world.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
And another oh-so-superior Europe supremacist jumps in the conversation to crap all over Americans and remind them just how stupid and culturally backwards we are. We know, we've heard it a million times.
Did you ever wonder if our big mistake was lend-lease, and fighting for the Euro-supremacists? They could be under NatSoc rule right now, and apparently much happier for it.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
He's used to people kissing is ass because he's rich. He's used to being above normal laws and paying to make problems go away, because he's rich.
Doesn't work in international politics though. Not least because at the pace economies and negotiations move the rest of the world can just wait for 2020. Realistically he's got a year left to do anything and there are some big problems headed his way during that time.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
How is the NSA looking after terrorist concerns is any way related to looking after commercial interests? Because there was a company involved somewhere?
The US government is bad but it doesn't even begin to compare to China with their great firewall, public shaming of citizens, massacre in the square, annexation and burning alive much of Tbt, and on and on. The US might poke their noses into the data of Europe, unlike others I won't pretend we haven't had revealed what was revealed. But the US still pursues common interests with Europe.
This US is like the Russian spy on Turings team when cracking Enigma. He served to send valuable intelligence to an ALLY. Letting China in out of spite because you dislike Trump is like bringing a German spy in on the same project.
One is an example of a democratic ally having had access to something you didn't intend. The other is a regime opposed to democracy and with a train of human rights violations in their wake to make African dictatorships blush.
The issue isn't just that someone will have their hands in the cookie jar, that is a given. The issue is WHO you are letting have their hands in the cookie jar.
"Well someone has to. You seem to forget it in your superiority."
Says the inferior and arrogant backward culture. Seriously you can just go back and forth on this nonsense all day.
"Huh? It failed? As far as I can tell the USA wants more money put into it."
I believe that is merely wanting you to pay your equal share or dissolve it.
"Have fun with your new buddies in Communist China.
Your brain doesn't appear to be working. If you've already had your morning coffee then may I suggest calling 911, you may have just had a stroke."
No, you are deciding it is a better idea to hand your intelligence and networks over to the intelligence industry of the country that runs the great firewall, opposes democracy, and burns peaceful monks alive alongside mowing down students with tanks. As far as I can tell it is purely out of petty spite. You demand proof they will spy as if it isn't petty and naive to pretend that whoever you buy from is going to do that, that was a given the minute you didn't develop your own chips for sensitive purposes like this. The question isn't whether or not they are going to spy but WHO you are giving the data to. Your long standing allies with common interests or the guys who won't speak to you if don't pretend Tibet was always part of their nation.
"You repeat this ad nauseum despite having been told with references all over again that the figure is bullshit."
And you are nitpicking.
"No, but claiming that it is better than the insurance-based healthcare the US has, tend to make you appear dumb."
Please stop talking. You are making us all look horrible. Continue not being willing to help others and wanting a short line in the form of denying others lifesaving care. But stop pretending the insurance-based healthcare even remotely makes economic sense, it doesn't. We spend more tax dollars failing to provide government health care in the US than other nations with comparable overall quality of care spend paying for that care entirely with house calls.
My god you have an over-inflated sense of your country's importance. Just keep chanting "murica, murica" to yourself, I'm sure you'll feel better. You might be more convincing if you were clever enough to put more than one sentence in each paragraph. It must be that amazing American education system.
Go manifest destiny somewhere else.
How exactly are they actually going to make the US leave short of an act of war? Currently they are pushing. Once upon a time the UK had a mighty British empire and the American colonies needed an ally to defeat them but today I think an act of aggression against the American military is a shoving match nobody sane would want. Even if it were the entire EU, which it no longer is, militarily they wouldn't stand a chance and that is without nuclear weapons considered.
Trump doesn't get basic shit. You don't threaten people to get what you want except as a last resort - not a first resort. This is why he sucks at "dealmaking" and has basically failed at every opportunity to do so.
This was a very winnable objective.
We joke over this side of the pond, if Trump had negotiated Brexit then we'd have already adopted the Euro and German as the national language.
The problem with Trump is that his money and family connections meant he was able to walk over smaller people with impunity. That power matters for nought in international trade and diplomacy and you need to actually work with your opponents to secure a good deal. Bluster and impudence will get you at the very best, ignored.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
That's why going from 35+% of world GDP down to under 25% of world GDP is in fact a game-changer for the USA. People are more free to ignore you.
The US hasn't had wise leadership for over two decades. It's not surprising that things have declined. The sooner we pull back and let the world go to hell the better. It's not like we're loved for keeping the peace. Let Japan re-arm, let the EU and South Korea figure out how they want to handle it, and move out over a ten year period so they have time to adjust. We have our own things internally to take care of.
Supporting a Communist nation after the advice USA is Germany going Communist.
Advice isn't enough. America also needs to provide evidence. So far they have none.
If the Trump administration continues to lie about this, they may even start to lose their credibility.
What do you mean by "start to"... As an Australian born Brit, I can assure you that the Trump Administration started with very little credibility (mainly due to the way Trump ran his campaign) and has been trying as hard as they can to lose whatever shreds of credibility they started with.
They wont stop lying though. They're people with no dignity, as long as their lies are believed by someone they'll keep saying them.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Not least because at the pace economies and negotiations move the rest of the world can just wait for 2020.
The current crop of Democrats doesn't look like they have anything catching traction. When Biden is supposed to be the adult in the room you know they're in trouble. The world may very well have to wait until 2024.
Strategically, do you now abandon those generational alliances because European leaders mock your fearless leader, who is, quite fairly, a rather easy target?.?.?.
Who cares about mocking Trump. Pulling back from Europe makes sense because footing the bill for their defense is just not worth it. Spend the $$ locally in the US and focus on ourselves for a change.
Looks like Europe finally found some backbone, because they do not actually _need_ US support for anything.
Sweet, we'll be heading out ASAP then.
That power matters for nought in international trade and diplomacy
To be fair, you're actually kind of amusing.
Without the American market to absorb every piece of crap the world can shit out, who are they going to sell to? American money pays for the entire planet. Add to that the free-as-in-beer naval protection for the world's exports. EU profits handsomely from trade with the US, not so much from with China.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
I personally find this shit hilarious I thought the YouTube videos of people crying was gonna be the end of it. Boy was I wrong, the last 3 years have been great.
Yay! Trump is defeated and a dictatorship has insinuated itself into the free West's Internet hardware on a massive scale!
Yes!
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Yet you live here, not in China.
Hm.
I'll take actions over words for 1000, Alex.
-Styopa
Chinese trolls stirring dissent in the west: "Goood...gooooood...let your rage at allies get stirred up and the useful idiots buy into our rhetoric about China not so bad US worse...goooooooood....."
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
You guys understand the trolls fight both sides of this argument to divert from the issue at hand, right?
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
And that other countries with most of their population literally living on dirt floors are now modernizing, finally, through more liberal economics (read: freedom to start your own businesses) doesn't mean the US isn't growing.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
No, but claiming that it is better than the insurance-based healthcare the US has, tend to make you appear dumb. ... obviously.
I think the one who looks dumb is you, after all in Germany we also use an insurance based system
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Please do so.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Indeed, prior to Trump shitting on them for 3 years, the EU was our ally in international conflicts (e.g. the Iranian sanctions, dealing with Russia, etc.) They easily could have bought into a Western Countries vs. China war (based on spying, IP protection, environmental and labor rights, etc.). But Trump cannot coordinate that. Hell, the TPP, whatever you thought of it, was in large part a unified way of containing China.
But Trump doesn't understand how teams work, so instead he's holding up China buying soybeans as a victory while losing at, well, everything that isn't selling agricultural output. Which, to be clear, isn't a win: it's what they were already doing. This is just them announcing the same policy as the past decade as "due to Trump's brilliance".
Your ad here. Ask me how!
the European companies are cheap and shortsighted. Sort of like American companies moving production to China in the 90s. Idiots.
Serves them right for snubbing their noses at us back then. I guess Europe is as dumb as me and has to learn the lesson their self. Can't just take other peoples experiences at face value.
You have no case. You did not even understand what I was saying. But what can you expect from an AC moron...
Also, since when is that standard for moral behavior "having gotten caught in the last 10 years"?
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Last time I checked, the US was a democracy...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
"Cutting off intelligence sharing" essentially means that the US agrees to stop siphoning our secret service's information while they keep providing us with the same level of information they already do.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
In international politics that's still "tomorrow".
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I know it's very en vogue to spout random bullshit and hope it sticks, I am an old fashioned guy, though, and as long as a claim isn't supported by evidence, I ignore it.
In other words, you just posted an empty statement.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
A country where people seriously discuss teaching creationism as if it had any scientific merit IS backwards.
Ya know, when I was young, the US was the country. It was the future. You wanted to know what's gonna happen in 10 years, take a look at the US, because there, the future is already now.
Today, the US is essentially the schoolyard bully of international politics. Strong, but incredibly stupid, so you suck up to him while he's looking but laugh about his blunders and utter stupidity whenever he's not looking.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The first shot fired in your scenario would by the UK. As for going nuclear, that would be ridiculously foolish. It would be madness no matter who did it. Only the absolutely insane would go nuclear for real, those are for making serious threats not actual deployment. But if they are that crazy the UK doesn't have nuclear arms sufficient to tackle the US. There is no scenario that goes nuclear where a UK remains afterward and the US doesn't. And the winds involved are such that they wouldn't be likely to harm the US they'd create a near instant collapse for most of the rest of Europe within the space of hours.
The UK and Europe aren't weak, they could blacken the eye of the US and in concerted effort maybe break its nose as well. That is enough to make the US hesitate. But they would be annihilated in the conflict. Actually playing hard ball and picking that fight would be suicide. Police here in the US are armed and we have an expression "death by cop." It is a suicide tactic in which someone points a gun at or shoots at police in order to force the police to kill them to protect themselves. That is the same thing you are suggesting here, that the UK and by extension Europe would kill themselves by pointing a gun at the US and forcing it to protect itself.
You propose the UK destroy itself and Europe alongside it just to spite a longstanding ally. I know you guys like to come up with alternative dialogues over there but you'd all be Nazi's or more likely either Russians or USians right now without the "sleeping giant" having been woken and defending you rather than letting Germany finish you off and then splitting the carcass with the Russians.
"HAHAHAHA! please cite the last war that the US actually won."
All of them? The US hasn't engaged in any actual invasions so withdrawing isn't defeat, success is measured by achieving the stated objective. Saddam is toppled kuwait liberated, Victory. The man himself found hiding in a hole and executed, check. Afghanistan liberated from Al Queda, victory. Bin Laden himself dug out and executed, check. Vietnam cost so much you could argue it wasn't a victory but the US successfully prevented the communists from advancing. That was really all a proxy fight with the USSR and the USSR doesn't exist today while the US does. Korea was part of that same fight.
Before that we weren't really in any wars since WWII. Last I checked we defeated the Germans, saved the British and the Russians, and liberated the rest of Europe in that one. Now you could argue the British and Russians didn't need saving and would have been okay but you are definitely looking through rose tinted glasses if you think they had any hope of achieving better than a stalemate without the US and that is a huge stretch for the British because they only survived to the offensive and to the work of Turing because of US aid. The UK was a besieged fortress and US supplies are the only thing that prevented the Germans from starving them out.
"hell, look at how long it takes to get your military out of a country."
What on earth makes you think we actually want to be fully successful at getting our military out of a country? Are you really so blind that you can't see that "failure" has resulted in a network of US military bases around the globe which are within range of any target in the world if we are willing to cross airspace?
Let's not forget however, that the USA is at present at war with it's own intelligence agencies.
That makes as much sense as if you said, "Lets not forget that I'm at war with my nose!"
First of all, it isn't a historical fact that we agreed to, so why are you pretending that we agreed to it in the past? That's a precondition of worrying that we might "forget."
Second of all, it is really stupid. You obviously consume a lot of "alternative media."
Christ, this reads like schizophrenia world.
Yeah, lets just re-quote this one little snippet from earlier:
the USA is at present at war with it's own intelligence agencies
That's why you feel like you're experiencing schizophrenia. You're saying things like that.