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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job (nytimes.com)

The video game industry is richer than it has ever been. Its revenue in 2018 was $43.8 billion, a recent report estimated, thanks in large part to hugely popular games like Fortnite and Call of Duty. These record-breaking profits could have led one to think that the people who develop video games had it made. But then the blood bath began. From a story, shared by an anonymous reader: In February, Call of Duty's publisher, Activision Blizzard, laid off 8 percent of its staff, or nearly 800 workers, in a cost-cutting massacre. A few weeks later, the game studio ArenaNet cut dozens of positions, while smaller layoffs hit companies like Valve and the digital store operator GOG. And just last week, the video game giant Electronic Arts announced that it was laying off 350 people across the globe.

This brutal start to 2019 followed the closures of major game companies like Telltale, the makers of games based on The Walking Dead, and Capcom Vancouver, the large studio behind the popular action series Dead Rising in 2018. All in all, thousands of video game workers have lost their jobs in the past 12 months. In many of these cases, laid-off employees had no idea what was coming. One developer at a major studio told me in February that he and his colleagues had been crunching -- putting in long hours, including nights and weekends -- for a video game release, only to be suddenly told that security was waiting to escort them off the premises.

Worker exploitation has always been part of the video game industry's DNA. Executives with multimillion-dollar stock packages often treat their employees like Tetris pieces, to be put into place as efficiently as possible, then promptly disposed of. For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand. Some people who make video games receive decent salaries and benefits (experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures), but many do not.

241 comments

  1. Not as many people needed by 110010001000 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Essentially game development is now using a engine (like Unreal, etc) and hooking up scripts and creating assets. That is why so many "big" games look like clones at this point.

    1. Re:Not as many people needed by JD-1027 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also, with most games now just online multiplayer with a few maps, development becomes much more simple. No need for AI when you have other humans to fill the niche. I guess I don't know for sure, but lack of any single player campaign mode probably really cuts down on development needs.

    2. Re:Not as many people needed by atrex · · Score: 1

      IIRC in at least one of these rounds of mass layouts it was a lot of marketing and PR staff, rather than development staff.

    3. Re:Not as many people needed by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      That makes sense too. Plus the engines now come with support for networking/multiplayer. I know zero about game programming but I would think most of the time now is creating custom assets.

    4. Re:Not as many people needed by 110010001000 · · Score: 0

      yeah companies always fire those people first when they hit a downswing. I would think those development houses are always in a boom and bust cycle as most games only make a lot of money for a short period of time.

    5. Re:Not as many people needed by mjwx · · Score: 5, Interesting
      We've always known that games development was a brutal industry, ruled over by corporate overlords who want a product shipped ASAP. Fortunately this is changing as those massive games companies are starting to fail because people aren't buying Medal Of Snorefare 2001923 Modern Boredom or Generic Sports Reskinned for 20xx as much any more.

      Essentially game development is now using a engine (like Unreal, etc) and hooking up scripts and creating assets. That is why so many "big" games look like clones at this point.

      It's a bit more complex that that. However using a pre-existing engine is preferred because building a bespoke engine is so complicated that unless you've got millions in the bank and years to wait, its cheaper just to buy COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) engine and then build the game around that. This has actually been a huge boon for smaller games developers on PC, they can use Unreal or Unity to make a game on a shoestring budget compared to many the likes of EA, Ubisoft, et al. Consoles not so much as the gatekeepers (Sony/MS) are firmly in the corner of the big boys.

      This is basically like the sports/super/hyper car industries these days. Noble automotive buys a Volvo, Yamaha or Ford engine, then builds a car designed to fit that with a bespoke frame and shell. So a company with limited resources can compete with the likes of VAG (VW/AUDI/Lambo) at the top end. We joke that Noble is "five blokes in a shed in Birmingham" but the M600 is a phenomenal car that I'd prefer over the Aventador or La Ferrari, it can only be that phenomenal because they're using a Volvo designed engine built by Yamaha.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    6. Re:Not as many people needed by Swistak · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the safety regulations in EU make it basically impossible to certify the self-made engine for the road.

    7. Re:Not as many people needed by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      You might be surprised. I've worked on several online games before, and multiplayer gameplay creates a significant set of technological challenges that single-player games don't have to worry about (predictive modeling, server-side validation, backend gameplay and matchmaking services, etc). And while the artists aren't necessarily creating a huge game world like in many single-player games, they're plenty busy. I don't think most people appreciate how much work goes into creating a single playable character, with all the unique models, animations, skins, weapons, effects, sounds, and voice work that go into each one.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    8. Re:Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are plenty of games with single player campaign mode. Branch out from POV twitcher games.

    9. Re:Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why so many "big" games look like clones at this point.

      It was the worst when the Unreal Engine 3 launched. For the first couple years, every damn game looked and felt the same.

      There was this conspicuous Unreal Engine vibe to everything.

    10. Re:Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those sound like NRE. The character happens in either case so isn't unique and without a campaign,, less voice acting or mo-cap is needed.

    11. Re:Not as many people needed by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Essentially game development is now using a engine (like Unreal, etc) and hooking up scripts and creating assets. That is why so many "big" games look like clones at this point.

      So the number of people needed to produce these is smaller, but the number of people trying to get into the field is probably still going up.

      Which is why this anonymous story submission reads - at least to me - like something submitted by someone "in the biz" who is hoping to protect his job by telling people "no, you don't want to do this, it's terrible".

      Apropos of nothing... you really shouldn't ever consider moving to Washington state - it rains all the time here.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    12. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. And you are full of yourself. Current games, especially "characters" look like ugly abominations made by simpletons. Are you one of the idiots responsible for "modern" shit games?

    13. Re:Not as many people needed by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Also, with most games now just online multiplayer with a few maps, development becomes much more simple. No need for AI when you have other humans to fill the niche.

      Except all the tweaking as players constantly find new ways to exploit your game mechanics, flaws in your maps etc. in ways that weren't intended but still don't really qualify as cheating or exploiting bugs. Keeping a competitive multiplayer balanced is certainly not a fire-and-forget thing.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    14. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warframe looks like an abomination?
      Final Fantasy 14 looks like an abomination?

      Just because the human characters in Anthem are all ugly (pretty people from the preview were all removed prelaunch) doesn't mean that all games are run by postmodernists.

    15. Re:Not as many people needed by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You have a completely unrealistic view of what an engine brings to the table. It's nothing like your bizarre fantasy. Big games have many hundreds of thousands of man hours in them even using established and easy to use engines.

    16. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The games you listed are 5+ years old.

    17. Re:Not as many people needed by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Games are getting more expensive too because they're being treated like blockbuster movies. Tons of expensive cut scenes (some games are nothing more than cut scenes with some minigames or QTEs in the middle), full voice acting, many gigabytes of textures, and maybe if they have time they bother with a story or gameplay. They are rushed out the door because they have deadlines - they gotta get it out in time for Christmas, every single year.

      Just like blockbuster movies they have endlessly rehashed franchises, reboots, and copies of whatever genre seemed to sell a lot in the previous year, but no time or money for actual originality. But that's ok because the vast majority of the customers don't care, they probably won't even play the games to the end since they only buy whatever is the most popular and stop playing it when something new comes out (if they play something old they're laughed at by their friends), and the customers don't mind that they're only renting games instead of owning them.

      Just like Hollywood, the interesting stuff happens with the independent developers and producers.

    18. Re:Not as many people needed by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Of course they copy other games' look and feel, since originality is in short supply. No one wants to try something different because that's risky.

      Using pre-made game engines means that the "hard" stuff is done already. What's left is often the tedious parts; making all the lego pieces for the assets (sounds, textures, models). I was suprised at this quote in the summary:

      (experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures),

      Believe me, the game engine developers are making six figure salaries, and so are the game designers and the majority of everyone writing actual code. So the fact that they had to point out the "six figures" part implies that most of the workers are either seriously underpaid or they're not in major US metropolitan areas (yup, lots of game people off in eastern Europe for this reason).

    19. Re:Not as many people needed by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Of course, but I would imagine they would be creating assets, scripts, dialogue, etc. An engine brings a lot to the table: graphics, networking, sound support, controller, physics, AI, etc. For example, one person can create a minecraft clone now in a single week. Most "big games" are just the same old crap with new assets.

    20. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warframe and FFXIV are still running. They're current titles. They'll be around for years.

    21. Re:Not as many people needed by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      But not hundreds of thousands of hours of serious computer programming necessarily. Most of the work involves creating assets and shoving them into a big database and others taking those assets and linking them together and a few who write in some simplified scripting language. Only a handful of people will actually be adding code or extensions to the game engine.

    22. Re:Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Online multiplayer is arguably the best thing for job security in the games industry. Unlike single-player games, there's a continued need for new content and gameplay updates. I'm myself working on an online shooter game that originally came out several years ago. Multiple companies where I worked on single-player projects in the past either went under or laid off most of the team as soon as the game shipped. MMO games are similarly a much more secure workplace than most of the industry, in some cases people have an entire career maintaining a single product (e.g. WoW).

    23. Re:Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "how much work goes into creating... all the unique models, animations, skins, weapons, effects, sounds, and voice work that go into each one."

      well the bean-counters certainly appreciate it in their own way lol. keeps the loot-box "economy" running.

    24. Re:Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was emissions regulations, not safety.

    25. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a liar.

    26. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      To the public, Blizzard measures development time and cost in terms of raid tiers. That means planning dungeon layouts and architecture, boss fight design, equipment appearance and balancing, etc. Basically, game design and artwork. Not a whole lot in the way of programming beyond a bit of lua here and there compared to the much larger scale of the rest.

      Game design, as a profession, is both low in demand, and isn't a very transferable skill. And other than effects artists (these people are really hard to find) the people that do the bulk of the artwork are a dime a dozen. While game programmers are easy to find, their skills are transferable, which does tend to shrink the candidate pool.

      It could be argued that game design is psychology because you're trying to get into the player's head and figure out what is fun to them and what isn't. However, few people have an innate talent for it, and unlike with psychology, colleges can't seem to create good game designers. Though some good game designers have gone on to become good psychologists...

    27. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most newbies at game shops start out seriously underpaid + not paid overtime. Fresh out of school you'll make much more at any other places and not get burned out as easily.

    28. Re:Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same thing really nanny-state commie shit.
      --
      cayenne8

    29. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he's living a world like the matrix, only it's all Minecraft. So yes, everything looks like an abomination to him.

    30. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want my asbestos back!

    31. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I like rain...

    32. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and there are tons of shitty n1ggers in washington. Fuck it.

    33. Re: Not as many people needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he isn't, but all the armchair neckbeard gamers who have never done any game design will tell you otherwise.

  2. subject by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Experienced game developers *can* make six figures? Most experienced developers outside the game industry *do* make six figures.

    1. Re:subject by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Experienced game developers *can* make six figures? Most experienced developers outside the game industry *do* make six figures.

      In cities with a large number of technology companies, entry-level developers make six figures.

    2. Re:subject by Frobnicator · · Score: 2

      Not all game developers are game programmers. Artists, animators, designers, audio engineers, they're all game developers, too. Many statistics that talk about game developers could be better broken out by discipline. Programmers are the highest paid of all the game development disciplines, and at senior levels they're comparable to other fields. I don't mean the trend of "senior" being applied to someone with three years experience, I'm referring to people with a decade or more of work experience working at established companies.

      At the junior levels --- where there is more supply than demand and many young eager applicants are willing to work for exploitative companies --- programmers are often paid less than similar industries. There are many bad companies who churn-and-burn. This means a large number of junior developers have bad experiences because those abusive companies churn through so many.

      At senior levels --- where demand is greater than supply and workers are generally savvy enough to not be exploited by the abusive companies --- pay rates are good. They're not investment banker or well funded Internet Startup good, but on par with programmers in many other industries.

      The good companies that pay well also tend to grow slowly and have low turnover, meaning people are secure in their higher paying jobs, but the openings are less common (because of the low turnover) so they are less visible.

      The "six figures" comments others are making are location specific and misleading. $100K in Silicon Valley is not a living wage. $100K in Des Moines is high. £100K in Yorkshire is an amazing rate.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    3. Re: subject by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article brings up an old point- because video games are great, there is no shortage of programmers who learned programming specifically to work on games, and the youngest of these are very exploitable- and so they are being exploited.

      I wasn't even done with college before I realized that going into video game programming would be, live somewhere expensive with no job security and no meaningful wage for half a decade, hope that my superiors would be impressed with technical skill and not looking for skin color, genitals, politics, class, whatever the current in-style horseshit is, and then maybe become established as a serious professional entity. ...or get a job making things that are immediately useful to business, practical, at a well paying job somehwere I actually want to live.

  3. Rush in by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If everyone and their dog want to do it, then there's lots of cut-throat competition and employers know they can treat you like crap. My relative found this out in the clothing designer industry.

    1. Re:Rush in by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If everyone and their dog want to do it, then there's lots of cut-throat competition and employers know they can treat you like crap. My relative found this out in the clothing designer industry.

      "And the man in the suit has just bought a new car with the profits he made on your dreams."

      It's an old story.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:Rush in by Monkey-Wrench-Inc · · Score: 1

      Appropriate lyric, indeed. Wish I hadn't already spent my mod points.

    3. Re:Rush in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Traffic - Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys if anyone wonders where the quote is from.

    4. Re:Rush in by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Yup, if you want a decent job with some amount of security and a salary to get slightly ahead of the pack, then you need to not be a member of the crowd that all do the same thing. If a huge number of people can do your job and everyone has the exact same set of skills that they learned in a certification course and the goal is for everyone to be a cookie-cutter clone of each other, then expect your job to be outsourced to the cheapest person. But if you can do a job where there's more demand for it than the supply, and you can do it better than your peers, then generally you'll do well in that job.

    5. Re:Rush in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod this informative!

      Signed,

      every fuck who doesn't know how to use google.

    6. Re:Rush in by Zehsi · · Score: 1

      it's not that easy. A few years ago yanks were crying about their jobs being outsourced to europe (to ireland, etc). Now even eastern-europe outsource their jobs to pakistan and india. You simply can't compete with a pakistani girl coding for baksheesh. And any girl who can use a phone can learn coding in unity, it's that simple.

    7. Re: Rush in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sucks to be an outcompeted fat and slow dinosaur.

  4. Get a better job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The video game people do this because people take it.

    I enjoy a high salary doing 40hours/wk doing C# and Java.

    A lot of open positions.

    1. Re:Get a better job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who in their right mind...

    2. Re: Get a better job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had a little bit of training in C. What's the best way to learn Java in your opinion??

    3. Re:Get a better job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Being in your right mind is a severe handicap when it comes to being employed in the US these days. Being an uncaring psychopath is far more lucrative. If you're not one, acting like one will usually do just as well.

    4. Re: Get a better job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just start. It is one of the easiest languages. it takes a bit getting used to how verbose it is though.

    5. Re: Get a better job by Cederic · · Score: 1

      If you can already program and just want to learn a new language, find something you want to write (or help write) and just start. You'll learn fast.

      First you'll realise you don't know how to craft a basic runnable program. A quick hunt online and you'll get the structure and you're up and running.

      Then you wont know how to compile/run it. Another 'net search.

      Then you wont know the syntax to add new features. Another quick search.

      Then you wont know which libraries come with the language that provide a wealth of functionality that you can reuse. But you'll be searching for 'how do I open a network port' and finding lots of answers telling you which libraries to use, and when, so you'll be fine.

      Then you'll get bored of all this shit and want to know how to automate it all, at which point you can become a software engineer.

  5. Nightmares are dreams too by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Funny

    Technically it could still be a dream job. Not all dreams are enjoyable.

    1. Re:Nightmares are dreams too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everything gets old after a while.

    2. Re:Nightmares are dreams too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even porn actors can't get it up after so many years...

    3. Re:Nightmares are dreams too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Remember, old programmers don't fade away... they die! They die screaming!

    4. Re:Nightmares are dreams too by DaFallus · · Score: 1

      A nightmare is a type of dream...

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
  6. Hold on.... by MitchDev · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Worker exploitation has always been part of the EVERY industry's DNA"

    There, FTFY

    1. Re:Hold on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, that's simply not true. It _can_ be part of massive companies, but there's plenty of companies people actually like working for.

      The game industry, however, has been that way for a long, long time. The spouses of Electronic Arts actually sued EA 15 years ago!

      https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-settles-ot-dispute-disgruntled-spouse-outed/1100-6148369/

      I used know someone that worked in games. Her bosses told her "this is what our industry is like". This is what people mean when they say it's in the DNA.

    2. Re:Hold on.... by flippy · · Score: 1

      It can be true of any company in any industry.

      It's more of a symptom of the modern workplace than any given industry. The only way this will stop happening is if people value themselves and don't put up with bad treatment, regardless of the industry.

      In the immortal words of Danny Glover, "I'm getting too old for this s**t." I, for one, refuse to let any company create an unpleasant life for me. Make my work life unpleasant? Goodbye - I'll be moving to another job.

    3. Re:Hold on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except when regulated professions like Doctor or dentists.

    4. Re:Hold on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you like working for a company doesn't mean it isn't exploiting you. In fact, if you are an employer you really require employees to actually produce work of value that is greater than what you pay them. If you're not exploiting them in this fashion, you're not making any money!

  7. It's like with anything else by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    Bad headline.

    Making video games CAN be a dream job.

    But, probably not if you are doing so for a huge company. That's the same with almost any work that can be pleasurable, until you mix in a giant organization you have to please with a million bosses above you who all have a say.

    The thing is, there has never been a better time to be a game developer and make games in a very small (sometimes just yourself) company.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:It's like with anything else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed.
      Large corporate structures with Executives who place shareholders above employees and customers aren't unique to the games industry.
      If you are involved with a small team that makes a hit Indie game, it can most certainly be a dream job.

    2. Re:It's like with anything else by chispito · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the same with almost any work that can be pleasurable, until you mix in a giant organization you have to please with a million bosses above you who all have a say.

      The thing is, there has never been a better time to be a game developer and make games in a very small (sometimes just yourself) company.

      Small shops can have too many bosses, too. Partnerships, for instance. You also may not be able to specialize in a particular area, because you are more likely to be wearing many hats. Not saying working for a megacorp is always better, but there are tradeoffs either way.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
  8. Fishing by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I hear lots of kids say that they want to be game developers because they like to play games and they need a job when they're adults.

    These same kids may enjoy fishing too (some of them get outside...) but very few have aspirations of becoming commercial fishermen. Somehow they know that's a very rough job that's not for most people.

    *Anybody* considering a career really needs to think through the work/life balance and pay, from clerk to physician, and do their research. Somehow I don't think most gamers ever do that when they decide to go to school to be a game dev.

    I've told a few high-schoolers about EA Widows and they were really surprised to hear it.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Fishing by valles · · Score: 1

      I had read that game industry, was an invitation only club. That's why I try to go the indie route. The market is flooded with competition now, too many people risking everything to try and catch a break.

    2. Re:Fishing by King_TJ · · Score: 2

      Yep! Very true!

      I think a lot of kids don't realize how different a skill-set is required to write good code vs becoming a good gamer. They just really enjoy playing their favorite video games and think it would be cool to have their name on the credits as someone who actually made one of them.

      Honestly, video games have become such large productions these days, I suspect they're more like creating Hollywood movies than anything else. If you're a really good artist and can draw the kinds of creatures, characters and backgrounds a game needs, you might be more employable doing that than just being a coder? Same thing for someone good at composing soundtracks for a game title, or someone good at doing voice-overs.

      As many people are pointing out here? Most titles today are using off the shelf engines to handle the bulk of the grunt work, so making unique games is more about filling in that audio and visual content than coding the skeleton.

    3. Re:Fishing by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Indie games developers are part of the industry.

      But it's never been invitation only anyway, and the indie developers are a big factor in why.

      Not all indie developers are going to sell their game to Microsoft for a couple of billion dollars but experienced game designers and developers with proven delivery of successful games will get the invitations anyway.

      So even if you want to work for the big companies, you don't need anybody to invite you into the industry. Just start writing games.

  9. I see by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    Some people who make video games receive decent salaries and benefits (experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures), but many do not.

    So ... like other jobs?

  10. Re: Need an UNION BAD!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    But that's like ~SocIALisM~ bruh, we'll all slip down a slope where innovation stops and every video game is basically the same.... oh wait.

  11. An industry that preys on the naive by chispito · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I always give younger people starting out their careers the same general advice that I was given and subsequently failed to heed as early as I should have: Find something you are good at and seek a job in whatever industry needs that skillset and will allow you to develop it further. Basically, I try to tell them to keep their "passion" for a particular cause or industry at bay, and develop their skills and resume instead. This is for two reasons.

    1) You aren't going to become CEO of Sustainable Tech Incorporated because you loved what they stood for so much you took a job in the mail room. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen.
    And, 2) You will learn to appreciate the benefit that different industries provide, and how just being good at something helps out your coworkers and customers.

    The video games industry is notorious for running sweat shops that prey on the young and naive, people who would do better to find a steady, "boring" gig with a 401k and reasonable chances for advancement. Maybe something union, if that floats your boat.

    --
    The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    1. Re:An industry that preys on the naive by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 1

      What's that -- don't follow your passion? Mike Rowe

      "Find something you are good at and seek a job in whatever industry needs that skillset and will allow you to develop it further. " A friend of mine decades ago said: "Find a niche and exploit it."

      You'll have to get up and do the same thing pretty much each day whether you want to or feel like it or not, so you might as well try to find something that you enjoy. You might like the money but if you hate the job you'll be miserable; don't pick the job just because of the money.

      --
      If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
  12. Solo Programming by Tempest_2084 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My interest ended when it was no longer possible for a single programmer (or a very small group) to make games anymore. When I was a kid growing up with my Atari 400 and Apple II I dreamed of possibly being able to come up with a new game idea, programming it, and getting it published somewhere. However by the time I was in college and getting my computer science degree I realized that those days were long over and games were far too complex to make by yourself. Not to mention the whole industry had changed drastically by that time becoming the meat grinder it is today.

    Personally I don't know why anyone would want to make games for a living anymore. Even if you don't mind the grueling hours, crappy management, and relatively low pay, it sucks the fun out of what you used to enjoy.

    1. Re:Solo Programming by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why do you think it's now impossible to make games with a small group or solo dev? In fact, I'm a solo dev doing that right now, and there are plenty of other examples. Obviously, you can't expect to create a game that competes with AAA stuff, but there are plenty of game types that are well within reach of a single developer. Modern tools and language improvements allow you to be vastly more productive and do much, much more than you ever could back in the Apple II days (my first computer too).

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:Solo Programming by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My interest ended when it was no longer possible for a single programmer (or a very small group) to make games anymore. When I was a kid growing up with my Atari 400 and Apple II I dreamed of possibly being able to come up with a new game idea, programming it, and getting it published somewhere. However by the time I was in college and getting my computer science degree I realized that those days were long over and games were far too complex to make by yourself. Not to mention the whole industry had changed drastically by that time becoming the meat grinder it is today.

      Personally I don't know why anyone would want to make games for a living anymore. Even if you don't mind the grueling hours, crappy management, and relatively low pay, it sucks the fun out of what you used to enjoy.

      Sure you can; there are still games out there written by small groups or individuals. Some even sell astonishingly well. The trick is, you're going to have to stay motivated and have a day job in the beginning. It takes a lot longer to write a game by yourself than when you have room(s) full of developers. You're not going to compete with the big guys in graphics, effects, or music.

      The trick to being a small operation is being creative. You've got to write a game, or reimagine a genre in a way that hasn't been done before, and is still fun. You've got to embrase quirky graphics, go pixel or 8 bit if you have to- embrase it! You're probably not going to write a good FPS that can compete with the big guys- so think of something different, something more unique.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    3. Re:Solo Programming by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      My interest ended when it was no longer possible for a single programmer (or a very small group) to make games anymore.

      So you're still interested? Because there are tons and tons of indie games developed by one person or a small group. You're not going to get your game on a retail shelf, but you can sell it directly (or through just one middleman) and collect most of the profits yourself.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Solo Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess Dwarf Fortress is a lie then.

    5. Re:Solo Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indie games have lower standards now, and many toolsets are free. Hell, I'm making my own engine for a low poly game, and there are devs now releasing new games for C64 and other old consoles with box art and instruction manuals like the good old days. Nostalgia makes these things marketable. Now's your chance!

      No on will be making a game that runs explicitly for a Pentium2 PC clone with Win98se, for example. But there are MS DOS (and DR-DOS) games in the make by indies right now, and thanks to emulators (DOSBox in this case), distribution isn't exclusive to the hardware, but it's a joy to run on old kit if you can still afford it!

    6. Re:Solo Programming by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Wasn't Minecraft created by one guy?

    7. Re:Solo Programming by lance_of_the_apes · · Score: 1

      It is possible. There are lots of small studios that can cut it as long as they produce quality work and aren't trying to go up against the big studios directly. It is hard to set yourself apart, but simple games can still be successful.

    8. Re:Solo Programming by lance_of_the_apes · · Score: 3, Informative

      After many years of game industry experience as a cog in the machine, I am now also a solo developer. I went to an indie meetup not that long ago and came across a guy even older than me. He was talking about how "easy it is" to make games nowadays. It is certainly true that there are more opportunities than ever; that free engines, resources, tutorials, and publishing platforms are plentiful. Back in "our day," those things hardly existed or not at all. Of course, he's mostly right.

      However, it is also true that there is more competition than ever because of how much easier it is, at least to get started. Expectations have also gone up drastically. Still, I'd like to think that there is still room for innovation and a small, dedicated studio can enjoy success, even in this overcrowded market. Cheers, and good luck to you!

    9. Re:Solo Programming by Tempest_2084 · · Score: 1

      The indie game/solo programmer reemergence phenomena has only come about in the past 5+ years. My experience is based on when I was in college and had to make a decision on what I wanted to do with my life (circa late 90's). At the time there really wasn't any large scale indie game programming unless you want to count shareware which isn't a viable career path. Maybe if I was graduating now I would do things differently.

    10. Re:Solo Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My interest ended when it was no longer possible for a single programmer (or a very small group) to make games anymore.

      Perhaps in your college days it wasnt feasible, but now, dev tools have never been more accessible or sophisticated.

      I'm making a game by myself. Plenty of others have already done so. Maybe give it a shot - you could bring that old idea to life.

    11. Re: Solo Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Notch, peace be upon him!

    12. Re: Solo Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. It is impossible to get into gaming on your own since the 90s. It takes too much upfront to make a big game now. Take a look at something like Minecraft. It was a billion dollars and MS is still amortizing the development costs. No way some guy in his basement can make something like that on his own.

      I blame Obama.

    13. Re:Solo Programming by ikhider · · Score: 1

      You don't need 3-D rendering and C/GPU-hogging programs to make good games. There are some text-based games that are far more fun than most 3-D and virtual games will ever be. Ideas trump graphics. Same goes for films. A lot of this CGI-crap cannot touch films made before CGI was even a thing, where story, script, acting, and skilful set design still held some value. It still holds value. Heck, a bunch of humans around a card table rolling dice and going over scenarios seems buckets more fun than 'grinding' for manna on WoW for days at a time. Maybe you do your low-tech thing and it will turn out to be better than corporate high tech merde.

      --
      "SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
    14. Re:Solo Programming by spacegrrrl5604 · · Score: 1

      So I had a hand in the games industry some years back. It was a soul crushing thing to be sure. Particularly if you bought into the belief you needed to be part of the AAA titles that all the publishers seem focused on. However there are many stories of small shops making some very fun games. One thing I always argued with people about was the trap that having to have that "perfect" game. I saw many folks in decision making positions waste huge amounts of time on pursuit of that high end graphics experience never bothering to ask themselves in their games were any fun. For every huge production massive team title there is a Flappy Bird that is entertaining just as many people.

      If you are passionate about something you think will be fun to play consider building it in the simplest way possible to deliver the elements of what you think makes it fun. It doesn't need to have photo realistic graphics or the best ever physics. Chasing that "as real as real life" experience is missing the point. Humans are easily amused, don't forget that key element. A couple of clever and/or creative folks can create games that will engage folks even if they aren't "high end". Heck, I'll still waste an hour playing pong if I am bored.

      If you are going into game development to make tons of cash and have an amazing challenging software engineering experience you should rethink your choices. I don't think the majority of game developers are finding the experiences today very rewarding.

    15. Re:Solo Programming by lance_of_the_apes · · Score: 1

      "Heck, I'll still waste an hour playing pong if I am bored." The question is, would you buy it?

      I think developers that dream of making games are generally not dreaming of Flappy Bird. Still, it is good general advice to start simple.

    16. Re:Solo Programming by Zehsi · · Score: 1

      you can publish your shit for 25 euro on android. For 99 on iphone. For 100 on steam. For 0 on itch. You can buy unity3d fo 0 euro. Blender for 0 euro. Aseprite for 15. Yeah, gamedeving is expensive. /s

    17. Re:Solo Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These days I get more enjoyment from smaller indie teams than AAA ones. Dead cells, Hollow Knight, Risk of rain,etc.

      Until Capcom's recent return to sanity very few high profile games have caught my attention.

    18. Re: Solo Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You lost interest in it because it is hard work instead of fun and easy gaming.
      Nowadays you CAN make a game with something like Unity in 7 days. It's doable solo and free below 100k per year. Expect a month for polish, two years to publish, if ever. It's never been this easy before.

  13. "Learn to Code" by Zorro · · Score: 1, Interesting

    That worked out.....OK maybe not.

    1. Re:"Learn to Code" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is very high demand for coders for things other than games.

      The more boring and tedious the enterprise, the better the programmers are treated, generally.

      Video game developers allow themselves to be abused, and that is why the abuse is rampant. I interviewed with a video game development shop when I was fresh out of college and thought it would be cool....they explained to me that I would work 60 hour weeks standard, up from there during crunch time. Vacation time was accrued but you could only take it between projects, which lasted typically two to three years. On top of all that, the pay was below the industry average for software developers.

      I am pretty sure some of that was illegal, but it didn't matter. I walked away from the offer and never looked back.

    2. Re:"Learn to Code" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh wow. A single aspect of a gigantic field of employment has turned sour. May as well abandon ship! Everything is LOST!!!!111!!!!

      Slashtard really are dense.

  14. I am no longer a programmer by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 1

    and when I was, it was for mainframes, so the languages I know/knew (been trying to forget COBOL forever) would be of minimal use for game design.

    However, it seems to be some of these mass laid-off employees could band together and form their own firm, no?
    Clearly they've got the knowledge, and here would be a prime opportunity to make, not only a better game (free of P2P/P2W,etc) but a better working environment as well.

    I dunno, I don't work in that field any more, maybe I'm way off...

    --
    So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
    1. Re:I am no longer a programmer by omnichad · · Score: 1

      With ready to use game engines like Unity, you really mainly need scripting rather than heavy programming skills. Most of the effort is in game design and developing graphic assets.

    2. Re:I am no longer a programmer by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      The layoffs in TFS were mostly in the marketing/PR/customer support parts of the companies. Very few were developers. So they're not in a good position to create a new gaming company.

  15. Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is just an indication of the market rejecting the shovel ware these companies release. They didn't make as much money as expected because not as many people want to play assassins call of far cry 17 where you do a bunch of boring chores for stupid NPCs. Games that actually offer something new to the market are doing fine along with the devs that work on them. No mention of Red Dead, Sekiro, Zelda ect.. These are titles that actually added something to the game market.

    1. Re: Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Red dead and sekiro were trash. Same boss fights over and over. Can't even use a different item. Each boss can only be killed a certain way.

      Zelda..now that's a masterpiece.

  16. Supply and Demand by hedge00 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When the hiring manager has starry-eyed young hopefuls lined up out the door and around the block, who view a game developer job as the culmination of their lifelong dream, of course working condition will be shit. Because you're all easily replaceable. So you put in unpaid overtime during crunch time and get laid off after the product ships. Contrast this to someone who does non-glorified skilled work and has a reliable job and decent work/life balance.

  17. Video Games for Big Corps is not fun by foxalopex · · Score: 1

    From everything I've heard it can be extremely difficult and thankless working for a large Video Game corporation. So this is hardly a surprise. It's a lot more rewarding I imagine if you're an Indy Game designer who succeeds.

  18. Winter is coming by Comboman · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Companies all over are scaling back their fixed costs because they know another recession is coming in the next 6 to 12 months thanks to Trump's tariffs/trade wars/general instability. It'll be a bad one too, because the tools government normally uses to fight recession (tax cuts & interest rate cuts) have already been used by Trump in a failed attempt to boost his popularity.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    1. Re:Winter is coming by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      Companies all over are scaling back their fixed costs because they know another recession is coming in the next 6 to 12 months thanks to Trump's tariffs/trade wars/general instability. It'll be a bad one too, because the tools government normally uses to fight recession (tax cuts & interest rate cuts) have already been used by Trump in a failed attempt to boost his popularity.

      To be fair, as anyone who has already filed taxes (and isn't wealthy) has already found out. Trump's tax cut was actually a tax-raise for most people. It was only a tax cut for the wealthiest. I know lots of people who are used to getting several thousand dollar refunds now owing several thousand to the government instead.

      There is room for tax cuts- just roll them back to how they were three years ago.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:Winter is coming by XanC · · Score: 1

      You're not confusing the final tax-day reconciliation (refund vs owing) with the actual tax burden, are you?

    3. Re:Winter is coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton and all the way back to F|DR used all the economic gimmicks available and now, thanks to marginal utility, it takes massive stimulation to get any kind of response from the economy. FDR had WW2 to stimulate the economy; actually people were making money head over heels in WW2 (if you weren't in uniform) and there was nothing to buy. When the factories converted from war production to peace production, all that pent up demand fueled a boom that lasted into the late '60s.

      Every politician since then has royally screwed up the economy.

    4. Re:Winter is coming by kenai_alpenglow · · Score: 1

      Probably because they live in a high-tax state and can't deduct those sky-high taxes. My taxes did go down, and I am not a high-income earner by no means. Newsflash: Because you are too idiotic to vote out your politicians who raise your outrageous property taxes, or increase regulations where it's hard/impossible to buy a decent house for less than 6-7 digits, don't blame Trump for that. Why should I subsidize you're lack of vision?

    5. Re:Winter is coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck are you talking about? Powell was jacking up interest rates for a year straight trying to ruin the market to hurt Trump, but when socialists like Ocasio-Cortez won in the midterms capitalist Powell realized crashing the market to spite Trump might not be the best idea, and finally decided to chill the fuck out, and the market has started to recover. Managed to snap up some Nvidia stock for cheap, so I say thanks based Powell! But your assertion that Trump lowered interest rates is straight up fake news, but everyone knows Democrats lie, so no surprise there.

    6. Re:Winter is coming by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      My company has been on a soft hiring freeze the past year. We've had 4 people move on to other opportunities and have only been able to replace 1. It wouldn't be so bad if they'd spread some of that extra money out to those of us left (only 5 of us remain).

      Overall sales look good however our industry is one of those most impacted by Trump's trade war. I do not disagree with his intentions on improving trade, especially with China.. but the plan seems to be just burn everything down.. I don't think there's a next step.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    7. Re:Winter is coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US has been exporting its inflation via the Petro Dollar, causing foreign nations to hold USD to purchase oil. If, say, Saudi Arabia, stopped selling Oil for USD the dollar would plummet, the dollars would flood back into the US and cause massive inflation. Trump didn't cause this... Now, Libya tried to get off the Petro Dollar with the Gold Dinar. We destroyed Libya to save US economy. Do you understand what "oil wars" are for now?

      captcha, presumably sentient: economy

    8. Re:Winter is coming by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Why should I subsidize you're lack of vision?

      Because you don't. The wealthier states, generally with higher state taxes, subsidize the poorer states.

    9. Re:Winter is coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't know your from you're. Stop teasing the red state retards.

    10. Re: Winter is coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then we got ourselves into this mess...

    11. Re: Winter is coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      broken windowd fallacy

  19. Things that are cool mean exploitation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If everyone wants to do something and it's seen as "cool", then you're ripe to be exploited. Employers see your crazy zeal, and they figure they can screw you over. Generally they're right. As the summary mentions, this isn't new. Nearly 20 years ago I used to know some fool who worked in video games in Silicone Valley. She burned herself up, got layed off all the time, and generally was exploited, but for whatever reason never figured out this wasn't Ok and thought it was normal. I'm fairly certain she still works in the games industry, probably still getting screwed over.

    I'd make a wild guess that this used to be true for writers of movie and TV too. But they have a union that protects them. A union I'd add that occasionally has to go on strike to protect this.

    I've worked for boring-old businesses as a developer for almost 20 years now. Exploitation happens, but I just quit and find a better place when/if it happens. If you're one of those "cool video game designers", you can't do that, because they're all sweatshops.

    If the developers would grow some balls, they'd form a union and demand better conditions.

    1. Re:Things that are cool mean exploitation. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      I thought LA was Silicone Valley.

    2. Re:Things that are cool mean exploitation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No LA is called Tinseltown, La-La land, and is often associated with the plastic because it's so fake.

      There's even a wikipedia entry!
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone_Valley

      It's becoming a popular way to refer to the snobbish, elitist, weirdo attitude that's popped up from the num-nutz that live their, and think they're the kings of computing, but in reality the rest of the world caught up about 20 years ago.

    3. Re:Things that are cool mean exploitation. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      You said no, but then linked to where Wikipedia says yes. San Fernando Valley is part of the LA metro area.

  20. For testers it's even worse by Higaran · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Game testers are treated even more like garbage, often they are employed by a separate company, and crammed into the basement for minimum wage.

    1. Re:For testers it's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fairness, basic bug-finding play testing *should* be nearly the bottom of the pay hierarchy. It likely requires absolutely no qualifications, is relatively safe and low-impact, and you get to play with a toy (not saying it will be fun, but more fun than playing with a deep fryer for the same amount of time). It's a job that should compete with call centers and fast food for employees. Makes perfect sense. To some extent it sucks that some people have such shitty jobs. But, they might just be dead in the wild, so it probably beats that.

    2. Re:For testers it's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you pay peanuts then expect monkeys who can't reproduce the bugs and waste developer time. I hope you aren't a test or software development manager.

    3. Re:For testers it's even worse by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      So that's why all those Slashdotters stay in the basement. Is the "separate company" named MOM?

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    4. Re: For testers it's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its even worse than you say. I was a game tester for EA. They expected me to work from home, find bugs that they refused to fix, and buy the game for $60 + DLC. All this and they didn't even pay me. Worst job of my life.

    5. Re:For testers it's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, obviously, you need to other staff involved. But, the person literally pressing the buttons? Nah. Doesn't need to have many skills. You're right, you want people to be accurate and fastidious. But, I've worked at restaurants. You can get plenty out of people without college degrees.

    6. Re: For testers it's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MOM makes robots and sells oil.

    7. Re: For testers it's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SOMEONE SAID FIRE!!!!

  21. Not just the gaming industry by foeclan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This really isn't specific to the gaming industry.

    My first job (printer company) I lost because we were acquired and they wanted to cull the herd.
    My second job (storage company) I lost because we outsourced everything.
    My third job (HPC company) I lost because our CEO was an idiot and ran the company into the ground.
    My fourth job (storage company) I lost because we bought our biggest competitor, put them in charge of my division, and then strangely we took the brunt of the cuts.

    experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures
    Experienced programmers pretty much anywhere should be making six figures. If they're not, they're probably being taken advantage of.

    1. Re:Not just the gaming industry by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you had a bad beat. I think gaming is even worse though because most businesses need some kind of continuity in customers, solutions and business relationships that very few gaming companies do. If your game is shit on release day you very quickly lose users and never get them back. Or you have people who grin and bear it but it's not really helping if you fix it three or six months down the line. If it's a success you'll have lots of users who's never played any of your games before. It's a constant gamble that almost always end in an insane crunch followed by uncertainty of whether they're making another game.

      That said, I'm not that surprised at the passing of Telltale though maybe I believed it was just me. I loved Sam & Max (2006-2010), Tales of Monkey Island (2009) and Back to the Future (2010) kinda fit the zany humor too. The Walking Dead: Season One (2012) was a mix of adventure walking around and interactive cinematic fighting zombies, it needed that urgency of "act or die". Season two (2013-2014) was epic. But then they went overboard on the interactive movie thing, it's like the whole thing was just a game to press up, down, left, right, Q, E as the story played start to end and the Hollywood IP started to take over making a compelling story. It became a lame version of being at the cinema, I bought the final two seasons of TWD but they were both let downs I was just invested in the characters.

      Fortunately they did manage to pull off a skeleton crew to close it out, but damn was the ending disappointing... MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD I mean it's a post-apocalyptic zombie universe where people die constantly. They'd previously announced, before the closure that this would be TWD: The final season. So I expected this to go off in like wildly different directions where Clementine would sacrifice herself for something, but for what was unclear. Instead we got a "and they lived happily ever after" ending where both Clem and AJ survive and only minor side characters die that was totally unrealistic. If you're bitten you have to amputate immediately and fighting so long and being so pale she'd die from the shock and blood loss of a major amputation anyway. It was supposed to be miraculous, it was just silly.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  22. Nothing New by alvinrod · · Score: 2

    This is hardly a new problem or something that people haven't been aware of for decades. The EA Spouse blog is almost 15 years old at this point and its the same story.

    With the rise of Steam and in a broader sense digital distribution itself, there's no reason you can't make your own game. Minecraft became one of the biggest and most successful games of all times. More recently, Stardew Valley has sold millions of copies, and it too was made by an independent developer. You can even make big 3D games thanks to things like Kickstarter. Kingdom Come Deliverance raised money through crowdfunding and produced a title that's similar in scope to an Elder Scrolls games, so you're hardly limited to just 2D sprite graphics. I think Star Citizen raised more than any other Kickstarter project ever.

    So if you think working for the man sucks, then quit and start your own company, make your own game, and be the one to reap the rewards of your own effort.

    1. Re:Nothing New by Skubman · · Score: 1

      Wait, those are all good points. Has anyone done the analysis to determine if the rise of decentralized game design has made the issues with corporate design worse? I mean, some guy is making battlefield from the ground up and moddable (Ravenfield).

      --
      -This signature is strictly to prevent comments ending with questions or propositions.-
  23. Six Figures? BFD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In order to have a middle class life - support a family of four ( own a house, own a car, health insurance (and dental & vision), retirement savings), all on a single income requires a six figure salary in most places in the USA.

    My grandfather did all that ( a family of seven!) on a BLUE COLLAR pay check - and all he had was a ninth grade education.

    What's different? Aside from the fact that there were more opportunities back then and that about 10% of people went to college (and college was much cheaper back then), he was in a union.
    The union made sure people got training, acted as a buffer for technology changes, and made sure management didn't abuse the workers too much. I'm not saying it was perfect but it was better than today.

    Back then, they had stakeholder capitalism. Everyone - investors, workers, local residents (government) - had a say in the company.
    Now it's all investors' interests and everyone else can go screw. Wealth rules - everyone else drools.

    Miner wants to destroy the local environment and pollute the drinking water and destroy the fisheries downstream?
    It's all good. Pretest and then you hate: jobs, capitalism, and America! Tough shit if the residents of that mining town have to drink bottled tap water out of plastic bottles.

    Stakeholder capitalism = good.
    Shareholder capitalism = evil.

  24. Suckers! by EllisDees · · Score: 2

    Working long hours for a company that doesn't give a shit about you is strictly for suckers. Get in at 8:30, leave at 5:30, take an hour for lunch. Go home and enjoy the money you make. Encourage everyone else to do the same. You will be fine.

    --
    -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    1. Re:Suckers! by zerocommazero · · Score: 1

      This is true. Most people work like its an iron man competition. You need to feel out your employer. You also have to able to honestly assess yourself and your abilities. Some reward effort, most just take it for granted. Best bet is to trial it, work harder for a set time to make yourself stand out, try to discuss with your superiors. If you don't get the answer you want, then move on or find a Plan B first and then renegotiate. If they don't value you enough, move on to plan B. The only time to discuss salary is during the hiring process or negotiation if you threaten to leave. You'll see most employers see salaries, just like any other problem. They won't give it any attention until its in their face/blows up. The longer they can get away with not paying you properly, the more money they are keeping to themselves.

    2. Re:Suckers! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      8:30 is to early to get in and 5:30 is to early to get out, and my lunch break is 30 mins, not 60 ..., I try to cut it to 20mins, though.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    3. Re:Suckers! by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      Working long hours for a company that doesn't give a shit about you is strictly for suckers. Get in at 8:30, leave at 5:30, take an hour for lunch. Go home and enjoy the money you make. Encourage everyone else to do the same. You will be fine.

      Oh! I'd consider 8:30-5:30 an unacceptably long day. I do a solid 9-5 in tech, and think that's enough, and I tell my reports the same. (we work for a company that does care about us, fortunately).

    4. Re: Suckers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are apart of the problem:

    5. Re:Suckers! by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      It depends. I actually enjoy my work. Sorry you don't.

    6. Re:Suckers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's how I see it. I do a 9-5 because I know my shit and I'm good at it. I don't need the constant social interaction many "normal" people need. I can just work effectively for the time I'm there and I feel bad being at work doing anything but actual work. Even checking Slashdot during lunch feels bad. There are sooo many people though that basically goof off for at least half their day or are so insanely bad at doing their jobs efficiently that they need 16 hour days to get less done than I do in a 9-5. That doesn't mean I won't stay past 5 and I do start before 9 anyway but that's all about when shit needs doing. If the company is flexible I am and that means that I take a half day off by leaving early or starting late when I worked more before and the company is fine with that. Then there's also the guys that have no life outside work and just do 16 hour days so they don't get bored. The problem comes in when the company uses these 16 hour guys to pressure the rest into doing 16 hours too and the game industry is insanely good at doing that.

    7. Re: Suckers! by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Which problem?

      No one has a problem when I work from 11:00 - 19:00 and make a 30 mins break. Especially when I go afterwards directly from work to my martial arts classes.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:Suckers! by EllisDees · · Score: 1

      So you volunteer as a sucker?

      --
      -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    9. Re:Suckers! by EllisDees · · Score: 1

      Lol. That's the funny part. I do too, but I'm not going to devalue my work by giving it away. 40 hours is the deal, and I'm sticking to it.

      --
      -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
  25. This isn't a surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trying to squeeze film like development into regular desk job model isn't going to work. Once a film project is finish everybody disband and work on some other film.

  26. Indies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are a lot of solo game devs out there.

    Just dont bother trying to compete with the pixel-blasting 3d shooters.

    You have to be creative.

    1. Re:Indies by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Very much this.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  27. Someone's got blinders on by atrex · · Score: 1

    Anyone that thinks working for a major video game developer is a dream job has had some big time blinders on for a very long time. We've had numerous reports over the last decade about the crunch culture, overtime, stress, and etc that developers at major studios suffer from.

  28. Lots of Independent Titles by KalvinB · · Score: 1

    ...are still being made.

    No one says you have to make graphically and mechanically complex games.

    What we used to consider top of the line video games are now considered leisure games. And there is a huge market for them.

    If you want to make games with a small team, pick up all those throwback consoles and find something you want to create your own version of.

  29. Re:Six Figures? BFD! by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    Not sure what you are talking about. Mining companies for example destroyed much of America back in your Grandfathers day. Industry have zero controls over oversight. And the Unions didn't care about anything about "stakeholder" capitalism.

  30. More nytimes lies and bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is fake news from libtard media who just want to keep you down. Video games is a FUCKING AMAZING thing to work on. The pay is amazing. You basically just get to play video games day and night. Your surrounded by cool coworkers (very few blacks/gays/etc) and the workplace is party city 24x7. Best of all if you are good at playing video games you are guaranteed a job, no need to do university and to be honest your fine skipping high school too. The industry is a PURE MERITOCRICY and you get ahead by being better than the rest, not by learning useless shit in school or listening to the dumb fucking old folks at the libtard new york times.

    1. Re:More nytimes lies and bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell it brother. I grew up high schol playing the original RDR and COD:BO and Masseffect2 and I was a fucking GOD at them. Before I graduated from high school I had **MULTIPLE** job offers from Microsoft, Valve, Nintendo, you name it they all wanted piece of me. So I dropped out and have been making SEVEN figures salary for the last 5 years! Don't let libtards tell you any things different. Video game as a career is AMAZING choice and don't be afrade to drop out of high school or college to follow that dream!

    2. Re: More nytimes lies and bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone mod up.

      I did the same. Now I'm a millionaireZ!!

    3. Re: More nytimes lies and bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same. Funy to read all the comments in here complaining about yet another fake store from the liberal MSM.

  31. That is also true of the game industry by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    It _can_ be part of massive companies, but there's plenty of companies people actually like working for.

    But that is equally true of companies that make video games - some can be great to work for.

    It's kind of absurd to claim video game jobs are bad, when what we are all rather obviously saying is "working under EA is bad". Why not just say that rather than trying to mislead someone who may want to develop games for a living?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:That is also true of the game industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say some of the stupidest shit I see on all of Slashot, and I see it consistently. Why do you keep posting? 20 years ago we'd have modded you down into oblivion. Now it's "insightful". You and your posts are emblematic of the decline of this site.

      Listen buddy, try actually listening to what other people have to say. I'm sure there's some odd little duckling game company that's worth working for. But there's a reason the article says it's in the DNA, and there's a mountain of posts that agree with it.

    2. Re:That is also true of the game industry by lgw · · Score: 2

      As a sector, video game development is bad. It's not just EA. It's not just Blizzard. It's not just Ubisoft. It's every large game company. Of course, you can start your own games company, but then you'll find your boss is really demanding.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re: That is also true of the game industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. Not sure who the fuck mods him up. The dudes batshit stupid.

    4. Re:That is also true of the game industry by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      This is a bit like saying sometimes you get a great career in professional sports and therefore going with the sports scholarship and taking the dumbed down classes rather than learning a useful skill is a great idea. There may be 10 great positions available out there but you have a hundred thousand people all trying to get them.

  32. sucks by lactose99 · · Score: 1

    Man if there were only an organization out there for the worker, like a union of some sort...

    --
    Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
  33. Pretty much all lies by SuperKendall · · Score: 0

    In order to have a middle class life - support a family of four ( own a house, own a car, health insurance (and dental & vision), retirement savings), all on a single income requires a six figure salary in most places in the USA.

    Nope. California and some easter states that is true. Everywhere else it is not. My sister and brother in law made no-where near a six figure salary and had a house, car and three kids along with health insurance...

    So that part is a lie. What else are you lying about? Lets see!!

    The union made sure people got training, acted as a buffer for technology changes, and made sure management didn't abuse the workers too much.

    "What's different" indeed. What is different is that unions no longer do that for you. Instead they take a cut of your paycheck for nothing much in return. Where are any indicators that modern unions are doing any of the things you say?

    There was for a sure a time when unions were helpful and really helped people. But that time is gone, replaced by regulation that offers the same fundamental protections for workers - and doesn't take a big cut of your income to perform a redundant task.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Pretty much all lies by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      So that part is a lie. What else are you lying about? Lets see!!
      Just because he does not know better, does not make him a liar.
      Hint: to lie you need to know the truth and deceive the one you are talking to about that truth.

      I wished you americans would be more careful with calling someone a liar. It is a serious insult where I come from, could cost you some teeth or worth.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    2. Re: Pretty much all lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are responding to a known troll. He's a fucking faggot who wouldn't dare talk that shit to someone's face.

    3. Re:Pretty much all lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The union I'm a part of in the UK got me nearly a year's worth of back-pay that the health service had decided we didn't need. Had it not been for the union a lot of us would have never even known this was even a possibility. I don't know what it's like in the US but UK unions are not all corrupt.

  34. Not all doom and gloom by doofologist · · Score: 1

    I worked at a smaller studio for years in IT, and while it was absolutely grueling work, it was a crucible for pushing you to think creatively and pull together to make awesome things. The programmers are typically pulled fresh out of college for low salaries, but after a few years nearly all of them 'graduated' and moved on to jaw-dropping raises and positions at tech companies. The ones that didn't stayed for love of the community and culture, but over time the high performers got wise and learned their skills were highly sought after (i.e. creating account authentication systems from scratch, an in-house DB schema, system management tools,etc.). The freedom in that environment let all of us work on things that most companies would be terrified to tackle ; I learned as an IT person that programmers were either our greatest asset or our greatest liability

    However, after getting sucked up by a large publisher, that spirit certainly began to dwindle a bit. Shortly after I got caught in a large layoff, however I too found that other companies outside of the gaming industry could benefit from my experience, and ironically it was a lot more money for a lot less work.

    What I think can be missed is taking for granted the gaming culture in the workplace; when WoW had an expansion (or when Skyrim released), work 'STOPPED', and the whole company was talking about it. Watercooler talk about class specs or planning raids is something I really miss, as outside of the industry I'm typically one of maybe two people in a company that can talk about new game releases or announcements.

    1. Re: Not all doom and gloom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CREATE USER INHOUSE;

      Yea. Invaluable skill! ;)

  35. Anyone who thinks it is a dream job... by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    ...is someone who hasn't been paying attention for the last 20+ years and sorry but that would suggest they're so inattentive to important things that they probably deserve to be paid and treated like disposables.

    Sorry, but the truth can be painful.
    Nobody's entitled to make a living wage "following their dream". That's not how the world works.

    --
    -Styopa
  36. Re:No shit. by Bert64 · · Score: 2

    Exactly, if a few people start letting the companies exploit them like that then the companies will start to perceive it as normal and expected.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  37. "Learn To Code" is considered an insult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a bannable offense to say this to one of the annointed class on twitter, but it's perfectly fine to use it to shit on "blue collar" types.

    This should tell you exactly what your value as a developer is in "tech society", regardless of who you work for.

  38. Or you're a falsely equivocating bullshitter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/stancollender/2017/10/08/the-gop-is-a-deficit-fraud/ - Whichever is more true.

    1. Re: Or you're a falsely equivocating bullshitter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I trust Forbes. Family name.

  39. Re:Need an UNION BAD!!! by locopuyo · · Score: 1

    A union won't magically bypass supply and demand. There are literally people making games for free and they're better than a lot of the people getting paid to do it.

  40. Revenue is not profits. Earnings are profits. by ankhcraft · · Score: 1

    When I see record-breaking revenue being referred to as recording-breaking profits, I must question the validity of the article: Revenue == Top-line (not profits) Earnings == Bottom-line (profits)

    --
    ...
  41. Left for space, no regrets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quite a lot of us former game programmers ended up in the space industry -- who could have guessed that experience with realtime physics simulations translated to rockets and satellites?

  42. Avoid AAA games by Berkyjay · · Score: 2

    This is why I only play indy games these days. I get more fun out of Rimworld, Cataclysm, & Dwarf Fortress as I ever did out of any of the AAA games spewed out these days.

    1. Re:Avoid AAA games by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

      This is why I only play indy games these days. I get more fun out of Rimworld, Cataclysm, & Dwarf Fortress as I ever did out of any of the AAA games spewed out these days.

      I thought AAA games just produced titles like Road Maps Galore, Plastic Spare Key Maker, and Tow Truck Driver 1986.

      --
      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
    2. Re:Avoid AAA games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now if Dwarf Fortress could just find someone who could design a home page that wasn't an abomination.

    3. Re:Avoid AAA games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of indie games are terrible though. You have to filter past a lot of chaff to find the wheat.

    4. Re:Avoid AAA games by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Nah, Euro Truck Simulator 2 and American Truck Simulator are created by what was a small independent studio.

      They're not as small any more, but that's because they've been successful

  43. Hasn't been a dream job since the 80s by crgrace · · Score: 1

    Making games hasn't been a dream job since the 80s and maybe not even then. I grew up in the 80s and like millions got interested in technology through video games. I got deep into the hobby, wrote loads of half-finished games and even finished a few! One was a sort-of popular public domain missile command clone for the Mac that led to a job offer from Borland (they didn't know I was 16 at the time).

    In those days, most games were made alone or in very small teams, by folks who worked close to the metal and truly, deeply knew the ins-and-outs of their chosen platform. I knew the Macintosh toolbox frontwards and backwards, other guys knew the Amiga co-processors soup-to-nuts. It was exciting to push the limits and you got to really own a project. It is hard to convey how satisfying it was to really make the computer do more than it was intended to do because you had hard-won deep understanding. Everything you knew you either figured out or was passed to you by your friends like ancient lore. It was magical to do technical work in a time before google or stackexchange.

    A few of my friends in the community became professional game programmers about that time (late 80s / early 90s) and it was already changing. The emerging Windows standard and the appearance of engines was starting to insulate players from the metal (huge counterexamples like Doom notwithstanding). The teams were getting big, producers who weren't necessarily technical started taking over creative control, specialist artists and musicians started joining ever larger teams, and programmers were relegated to a more technical, and somewhat less creative roll.

    I didn't see this first hand (I got into hardware in college and haven't looked back) but in chats with friends who went to places like EA, Disney, Sony, and so on, the job became more and more a grind.

    Lots of tech jobs have death marches (I certainly do in ASIC design), but the difference is game companies like to pretend that they are doing YOU a favor by employing you. Like you should do technical wonders and work insane hours because you have the privilege to be living the dream making games. Screw that.

    In other words, many of the things that attracted technical people to games in the first place have been taken away from us for decades now and yet the myth that working in games is some kind of dream job persists. I've known it kind of sucked from at least the mid 90s.

  44. The solution is working together below by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But the new developers simply won't believe it's possible.

    It's how it is. It takes a lot of work.

  45. We need a 32nd amendment by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

    A well regulated Economy being necessary to the prosperity of a free State, the right of the people to enjoy a reasonable and equitable share of the fruits of their labor shall not be infringed.

    --
    Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
    1. Re: We need a 32nd amendment by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 1

      Thatâ(TM)s (thirty) second amendment, by the way. ;-)

      It would go on thus:

      Congress shall enact laws, and from time to time revisit them as necessary, to ensure that no person, neither natural nor corporate, shall monopolize resources generated by nor provided for the benefit of all; minimum and maximum wages for work shall be established and enforced. Income from sources besides work shall be taxed at such rates as to ensure that remuneration therefrom shall in no event exceed that which may be earned through compensable labor given the limitations of the maximum wage set at that time.

      --
      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
  46. Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation by tepples · · Score: 1

    Why do you think it's now impossible to make games with a small group or solo dev?

    You might need a "small group" just for the organizational and accounting aspects of dealing with the console makers that act as gatekeepers to your market. For example, the PlayStation developer signup form currently requires each developer to be a corporation or LLC with its own tax ID, an office with a static IPv4 address, and a domain name with website and email under that domain. SIE declines to do business with sole proprietorships, and many ISPs offer a static IP only to offices in commercially zoned areas, not to home offices.

    1. Re:Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation by MooseTick · · Score: 1

      "For example, the PlayStation developer signup form [playstation.com] currently requires each developer to be a corporation or LLC with its own tax ID, an office with a static IPv4 address, and a domain name with website and email under that domain. SIE declines to do business with sole proprietorships, and many ISPs offer a static IP only to offices in commercially zoned areas, not to home offices."

      Those are excuses. An individual can form a LLC or Corp C/S with tax ID for a few hundred dollars. You can get a static IP and domain name for $25/month (not at your residence, but that isn't required).

      And an individual can make games and make money. Many "phone" games are made by individuals. Most are duds, but it can happen. It doesn't take a team to write classics like Tetris, Pac-Man, etc. Even Minecraft was originally written by one person. And he ended up selling it for billions!

    2. Re:Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation by cruff · · Score: 1

      ...and many ISPs offer a static IP only to offices in commercially zoned areas, not to home offices.

      It's easy to get a virtual private server hosted at an ISP for a small sum per month to establish an static IP address.

    3. Re:Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation by tepples · · Score: 1

      An individual can form a LLC or Corp C/S with tax ID for a few hundred dollars.

      Google Search pulls up "How to Incorporate a Business", and I understand about half of what's written there. Could you recommend an introductory book or the like that describes likely pitfalls in incorporating a software or entertainment business and how to avoid them?

      You can get a static IP and domain name for $25/month (not at your residence, but that isn't required).

      This would be a VPS to use as a VPN endpoint, correct?

  47. Re:Need an UNION BAD!!! by tepples · · Score: 1

    There are literally people making games for free and they're better than a lot of the people getting paid

    If this is the case, the scarce resource is not developers as much as marketing. It costs money to bring even a finished PC game to consoles so that users uninterested in PC maintenance rigmarole or behind a restrictive download cap can play.

  48. Re:Six Figures? BFD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Grandfather had a 1200 sqft house.
    1 car
    B/W TV or no TV
    Radio

    You can EASILY do that on min wage or slightly more in most of US. What you are bitching about is big screen TV, Netflix, Hulu, 3 cars, going out drinking multiple times a week, multiple cell phones, and on and on.

    Compare apples to apples. You don't need a 3000 sqft house otherwise you DO need six figure.

  49. Gamedevs make it too easy by bettodavis · · Score: 1

    To be treated badly by companies, by accepting such treatment just to keep doing their "dream job".

    The whole game development industry seems fueled by the youthful energy of dreamers "just wanting to make games", and accepting crappy bosses, lower salaries, rushed schedules, unpaid overtime and other anomalies, that would drive people away in any other part of the software or media development industries.
    Yeah, there's not much one person can do. It's a market offer and demand situation. Lots of software developers and artists get into programming & art because of a childhood desire to make video games.

    If you can't take it anymore, you better leave. There always will be more fresh meat to grind, and young rookies perfectly happy to take your place on the meat grinder.

    And you could also find you can make a lot more money too, doing a lot less stressful work.

  50. The headline is correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a meme job. Get a STEM degree.

  51. How do I shot marketing? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Say someone does decide to save up enough money from his or her day jobs to incorporate and start building games. One thing I realized when considering going this route is that not everybody who has worked in a video game studio is skilled in all parts of the process. Could you recommend any good resources for a game developer to build skills in marketing, both to promote a game to the public and to promote a game to the console makers who operate the storefronts?

    1. Re:How do I shot marketing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not exactly germane, but as an independent author, I run up against the same problems. Just because I know how to write a book, doesn't mean I know how to sell a book.

    2. Re:How do I shot marketing? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      promote a game to the console makers

      Starting as an independent with no immediate contacts in those organisations I think I'd focus on building a brand, community and successful product within the more accessible markets first - mobile or PC.

      It's a lot easier to go to MS or Sony when you can prove there's demand for your product and it's beneficial to them to help you deliver it on their platform.

    3. Re:How do I shot marketing? by tepples · · Score: 1

      focus on building a brand, community and successful product within the more accessible markets first - mobile or PC.

      In principle, I'm inclined to agree. In practice, I'm interested to read how you would recommend to solve the following hurdles when bringing a handheld-style game to mobile or a console-style game to PC:

      Input on mobile differs greatly from input on Nintendo handhelds. A flat sheet of glass is all you have. Or is there a market for mobile games that require or at least strongly recommend purchasing and pairing an external gamepad?

      Are PC gamers willing to buy party games based on in-person interaction around a shared screen?

    4. Re:How do I shot marketing? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Mobile games port onto the PC and can be successful. Stuff like Battle Fleet 2 for instance. A 'touch to interact' interface translates quickly and easily to mouse input so if you design the game to eventually support mobile and PC then that's certainly an option.

      I think finding an audience on mobile is very hard though, and I don't know how mobile translates to console, so I'd probably start on PC anyway.

      Party games around a shared screen are available on PC but work best around a large screen in a family room. Most PCs aren't connected in that way; I think console is a far superior option for that.

      Handheld type games aren't an area I'm terribly familiar with. They'll definitely translate to console, because the handhelds are basically small screen consoles (and often run legacy console games) and that means they'll also translate to PC. I think I'd cynically build a game that can port to console then plan to wait a decade then port it to the latest handheld. Greater codebase longevity, and can be tied into the marketing for a sequel..

      Many console type games work just fine on PC, or better. Anything RPG, RTS, FPS, etc. Even racing games. I think party games and FIFA/NBA type sports games struggle, but stuff like Rocket League works is popular on PC and obviously there are the PC only games like Rimworld and the Football Manager series.

    5. Re:How do I shot marketing? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Mobile games port onto the PC and can be successful.

      I'm aware that porting touch to mouse or vice versa works well. But I was thinking the other way around: PC to mobile or console to mobile. That would require porting keyboard or gamepad to touch. How would you design practical touch control for an action platformer like Mega Man?

      Party games around a shared screen are available on PC but work best around a large screen in a family room. Most PCs aren't connected in that way; I think console is a far superior option for that.

      Which again raises the question of how to raise the funds and demonstrate the experience to become licensed on consoles in order to ship the game. Is it the case that a company's first game or two must be in genres other than party?

    6. Re:How do I shot marketing? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Good questions. Are there any games development conferences (or games conferences) near you any time soon at which you could meet indie developers that have been through this learning curve?

    7. Re:How do I shot marketing? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Are there any games development conferences (or games conferences) near you any time soon at which you could meet indie developers that have been through this learning curve?

      I don't know. How would I go about finding those in a given area (such as northeast Indiana)? Would I need to buy a car to attend one?

  52. Re:Bill teh Dummy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Said the idiot who thinks using "teh" is some sort of stroke of brilliant refutation.

  53. Not naive, just recent graduates by Slugster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Some years back there used to be a (US?) print magazine titled "Game Developer Magazine". It existed from 1994 to 2013. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    I read it at the time because of a general interest in programming and computer games. I didn't ever really expect to get a job doing it. And reading that magazine didn't really change that expectation...

    There was basically about three kinds of articles they generally had:
    --One was about new game hardware, software or related tech coming soon.
    --One was called "Post Mortem" where after a game was released, they would have a manager talk about all the major problems they had along the way.
    --The last was general management articles about running computer game production.

    From reading this magazine occasionally for a couple years I gathered two things:
    1. Many people who got hired to code were recent college grads in LA or Austin TX, who really just took the job to put something on their resumes. The lower coding jobs were low salary and long hours with little benefits, and they left as soon as they found anything better.

    2. There were constant problems with employee turnover. Many articles were about how to set up content management systems so that it was as easy as possible to get new people up to speed and working productively.


    I often wondered who the target audience for this magazine really was. From reading it, working at a game company really didn't sound like much of a dream job.

    1. Re:Not naive, just recent graduates by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ex professional game dev here. I was formally in the industry from 1995 to 2011. I give dev & design advice and do indie games on the side now.

      Those articles were written by and for us professionals in the industry. Working at one company it was hard to see that everyone else had the same set of problems. GD Mag brought awareness:

      - Securing funding
      - Management setting unrealistic schedules
      - Publishers setting artificial deadlines
      - Not taking responsibility for burning people out
      - Extremely high turn over due to kids thinking game development was easy
      - Managing technical risk
      - Managing innovation vs what worked last year
      - Managing technical debt
      - Managing scope
      - Managing people
      - Managing business relationships
      - How to share knowledge
      - Create an engine vs buying off the shelf
      - What is fun?
      - What makes a good game good? What makes a bad game bad
      - What are today's and tomorrow art challenges?
      - What is a good, flexible, scalable pipeline?
      - How to avoid crunch time? How to manage crunch time?
      - Audio design
      - Animation tricks
      - Technical tricks
      - Applied higher level Mathematics
      - etc.

      I worked at several game development studios. While I started just out college almost all were dream jobs. I had the opportunity to learn tons about programming and about the game industry. I was extremely lucky. The industry is definitely volatile -- few smaller studios folded while I was working for them or shortly after I left. I only had to crunch a few times. Inspire of all the negatives about the industry it was a great opportunity to learn many things that just can't really be learnt any other way. You don't really understand something until you learn how NOT to do it.

      I know people got burnt out, got taken advantage of, were exploited, and it sucks. A few companies actually cared about doing things right and treating people with respect. Don't judge an entire industry just because the majority cared about making money. Many, many people were in the industry because they were passionate about making games and entertaining people. Some just wanted the paycheck.

      I wouldn't trade my experiences for anything.

      --
      Lies of Atheism: Your "bible" contains literal lies so the entire thing is worthless.

    2. Re: Not naive, just recent graduates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Atheist here. I approve of your sig. This statement goes beyond just religion too. Even a completely false statement can have value. And certainly has no effect on the truth of accompanying statements.

    3. Re:Not naive, just recent graduates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't judge an entire industry just because the majority cared about making money.

      Nah. Let's go ahead and judge the entire industry, because all the good companies you worked for are gone, more than likely because they made a deal with the devil* and sold their dreams, their hard work, and their legacy for cold hard cash.

      *And of course, by "the devil" I mean Electronic Arts.

    4. Re:Not naive, just recent graduates by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Ironically, I worked for EA before the whole EA spouse thing blew up. It was a real eye opener to how corrupt & immature the industry was.

      There ARE still indies who care about making fun games and respecting the players. While they may be the minority they DO exist.

      /noclip has an excellent documentary about Astroneer.

    5. Re:Not naive, just recent graduates by jma05 · · Score: 1

      Gunpoint was a great example for a 1-man (mostly) indie game, by someone who was barely even a programmer.
      Tom Francis was himself inspired by Spelunky by Derek Yu.
      FTL and SPAZ were 2-man teams.

      Home-grown Indie games ala 80s are still viable. The good ones have more soul than an average AAA title churning out the next iteration in the franchise. They support modding and run on any basic laptop. And of course, there are a plenty of mobile games that are likely 1 or 2 person teams. Word and Puzzle games hardly require large teams.

    6. Re:Not naive, just recent graduates by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the list! More examples of good game devs:

      * Crate (Grim Dawn)
      * Re-Logic (Terraria)
      * Mojang (Minecraft)

  54. No dream job by c++horde · · Score: 2

    I spent over 13 years in Game Development, with Paradigm Entertainment, Ensemble Studios, Microsoft then my own company. Looking back, it was a terrible career decision. It was non-stop death marches, many co-workers had ridiculous egos, by the time you shipped, you hated the game. I should write a book. I would not recommend anyone game development as a career to anyone. The budgets required for a triple A title can only be financed by corporations, and they expect you to live at work. It is a lifestyle. If you do go into game development, go to work for Microsoft so there is lateral mobility.

  55. As a game developer by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Okay, put aside things like EA Widows and excessive overtime and layoffs. Take those things off the table entirely and ask the question: is game development a dream job?

    Answer (unsurprisingly): no. It's a job. It's a job with slightly different parameters than normal programming, but I've been doing this for over 15 years, and I use the same tools most other programmers do (emacs, Visual Studio, a PC) and I work on teams with other programmers, I have to live with the decisions of managers that I disagree with, etc. Particularly as a developer of AAA games, it's not much different than when I worked at an oil company. A lot of the development is not very interesting. It's just code, man. Occasionally you get to scratch a creative itch, but most of the time it's just the same programming that you do anywhere else. (Except, usually, the pay is worse.)

    There are some things that are better about the games industry than other industries. You might actually have fans of your work, people will find out about a game you made and express some joy they had in playing it. People are always interested in your job, and you get to mingle with artists and animators and writers.

    But don't come to this industry expecting like it's not work just because the end product is entertainment. Think about what it really means to have a 'dream job'. You probably won't change the world here, or get rich, or become influential. If you're lucky, you'll work on a decent project with decent people, get paid passably well and make something that other people find entertaining or useful. Just like any other job.

    1. Re: As a game developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you create games with emacs and visual studio? Iunno Chief, Sounds suspect.

    2. Re:As a game developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is game development a dream job?

      The notion of a dream job is an immature way of viewing reality - for almost everyone with the exception of a fortunate (enviable) few. For everyone else a job is work - required to keep a roof over one's head and food on the table. There's a reason they call it going to work and not going to play.

      It reminds me of my teenage son who thought that the prospect of working at the local amusement park was his "dream job" at the time. Obviously he believed would be working at an amusement park which obviously meant non-stop amusement while working - the work he would be doing didn't even factor into this thinking. When I pointed out that en entry level job at the amusement park might be picking up garbage he was unfazed.

      Giving up the notion of a dream job is part of growing up for the vast number of working stiffs.

  56. Re:Solo Programming ...Nonesense! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A small/ solo shop can even be TOO successful...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flappy_Bird ...not a happy story, but it shows that impactful* solo development is quite possible.

    *sorry 'bout the marketerspeak...

  57. Opportunity knocks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get together and start your own company. The corporations showed you how it's done. Now beat them at their own game.

  58. The Money Flows Up by Stolovaya · · Score: 1

    Well sure. I mean, you have to make sure that executives are being appropriately compensated. Look how much someone like Patrick Soderlund gets:

    https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-gave-outgoing-exec-patrick-soderlund-a-20-milli/1100-6461170/

    Soderlund's employment agreement also netted him $46.2 million in stock-based awards for the fiscal year.

    I know not every company is EA, but Jesus. I felt he was pretty horrible for the company, so knowing he got this much...well, it's EA as usual.

  59. Banished, Stardew Valley, Papers Please, Undertale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Return of the Obra Dinn, Kingdoms and Castles, all titles available on GoG by solo or duo developers.

    What planet are you living on? On my planet, this is a golden age for the solo developer.

  60. It never was a dream job by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

    The problem is, and every large game company exploits this, is the fact that people play video games. People like video games. And eventually, a good chunk of those players get the idea that they want to do the next step and make video games.

    The lucky ones stay independent - they get a book, do a few exercises, then realize they need a regular Day Job(tm) and do the games thing on the side.

    The unlucky ones start applying for "dream video game" jobs at the companies whose games they play. And those companies know the people coming in are endless (endless supply). This results in low pay, over exploitation (I've seen rules where it was mandatory 60 hour workweeks, Monday through Saturday).

    And health benefits? Well, perhaps you can be the poor guy who had TWO heart attacks before 30.

    And quotas, always the quotas.

    Once you've had enough and quit, or expire, well, you're out, and there will be a new guy occupying your seat while it's still warm.

    The result is really, one should take a job doing "boring" development, do your 40 hours a week banging out accounting code or whatever, then work on video games on the side. The pay will be higher, the benefits better (although just doing 40 hours a week instead of 60, Mon-Fri instead of Mon-Sat, and no 120+hr crunch months will definitely be a huge benefit in and of itself), just it's not as flashy. But hey, it leaves time to have a hobby, or a life.

    1. Re:It never was a dream job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How will the company make mad money if you have a hobby or life?

  61. Re:Six Figures? BFD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, you only need around 50k and to not live above your means like far too much of the population does. Around 75k is the sweet spot where people feel the most secure. There are studies on this, go look them up.

    If all your kids have smart phones, have cable, TVs in more than one room, bought a car new, bought a computer new, buy outer clothing outside of thrift shops, go eat out, kids go to private schools, and you never go to the library then 'you're doing it wrong'. Those things aren't required for a happy life but they will sap your money like crazy.

  62. SK vs KXIP dream by pankajgrow055 · · Score: 1

    I have found the site very informative! I only recently came upon it, and wish I’d seen it sooner. It does a great job of pulling different topics/disciplines/perspectives — something unique and valuable here. Thanks — hope you keep it up! regards CSK vs KXIP dream 11

  63. Re:Need an UNION BAD!!! by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    An UNION will stop the unpaid CRUSH time of 80+ hour weeks.

  64. I been saying this for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nice to see it in print so I can actually back up my claim

  65. Blizzard did not lay off any developers by Bryansix · · Score: 1

    Blizzard laid off mostly IT and reporting staff and other administrative staff and people supporting marketing and HR. No developers lost their job. https://www.tweaktown.com/news...

  66. Not True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This post might actually impact someone's dream of making video games. Yes, the competition is much but it's expected. As mentioned above, games like Fortnite and Walking Dead might not be making as expected, due to the monopoly of PUBG. However, before there was PUBG no one knew a game would literally go this viral, like really global. Personally, making video games should be a dream job, because we need a lot of game developers who can build lots of high quality epic games for the growing population.

  67. I left games in 2004 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why did I leave?

    Teams became too large, creativity left, no equity sharing, stagnating salaries, layoffs, long hours, working with prima donnas, and/or idiot producers, cookie cutter games. It stopped being fun.

    Now I work at a tech startup and the hours, pay/equity sharing, and work environment is way better. and the work is way more interesting. To me it is, at least.

    It's really not that fun to work in games. Worse if you end up on an inane, licensed product, because there's a high likelihood that the game your working on is terrible. And nobody even cares. Some development studios may be better, but not the ones I worked for.

  68. Funny how sometimes the fed govt works out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fed government changed the minimum pay to be considered a salaried worker to just under 50k.

    It could do the same be setting the minimum pay for a salaried worker to 500k thereby converting just about all workers to hourly employees subject to getting paid overtime.

    FWIW, I did the death march(s) in my 20s. I now tell the team, I'll put in overtime but not a crazy amount week after week. If our schedule demands overtime for an extended number of weeks, the schedule needs to be lengthened or features cut to not require extended number of overtime weeks.

    Not going to sacrifice my health so some upper manager gets to put a check in the box saying 'delivered before the end of the year' or some artificial dead line.

  69. Careful what you wish for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I talk to car mechanics who lost their passion for cars. I have seen brew masters who had a hobby making beer, suck the life out of them turning it into a job. I hear cooks who start restaurants and tell everyone the first thing to know about a restaurant is don't try to start one.

  70. You can make your own game as an indep. developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just fucking keep it small and niche. The problem is marketing it and getting it noticed in a sea of a gazillion other apps.

  71. Still a dream job to some! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean some of us don't revel in it.

  72. And the moral of the story is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop killing yourself trying to get comfortable by making other people rich.

    [a] Do not pump all of your best work into a corporation that will tell you what a valuable worker you are, right up until the moment you finish a project and they lay you off as an unnecessary expense.

    [b] Do not hang your hat on a union that will suck you dry using your good work to offse the shabby work of three other "brothers" and padding the lives of the union bosses, but who are expending political capitol supporting things like cheap foreign workers (see: Trumpka)

    Develop the talents you have and the skills you have learned, and find a way to make yourself and your work product valuable to others, directly. The only person who can make life hell for, and then fire, a plumber a carpenter or an electrician or another skilled worker who serves the public directly is: The Customers. When you totally control your work in ANY field and can freely choose who to serve, there's no dirtbag who can make a mess of your life and then threaten the wellbeing of your family by holding your job over you.

    The USA was founded by people who were mostly independent workers, not interchangeable cogs in huge corporate machines answering to Wall Street hedge fund managers. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, and the rest - all independent men who were essentially self-employed. The nation at that time did not send all kids to government-run educational facilities 5 days a week for 12 years to make them into interchangeable cogs with no creativity and self-confidence; that was an industrial era thing when big pre-automation mass production businesses needed a supply of such workers and it did not want them to be independent or creative except within narrow bounds. There was a day when Silicon Valley was full of free-wheeling free-thinking people who started all sorts of computer-related businesses where a person could more easily go from zero to hero, but too much power now is focused in the hands of companies with boards staffed by generic businessmen with MBA degrees and no other redeeming value.

    If you want to write games and you do not want to do it under the current conditions, then you need to not only find some spiffy new graphics techniques, or some such thing; you need to come up with a new innovative business model, and make it one that will destroy the model used by the jerks running the current corporate game titans. In short: Come up with a way to do to Activision what Jobs, Wozniak and Gates did to IBM and DEC. The big boys today are making it easy; they're running back to the old model of users tied to monthly payments and servers and back then that model was destroyed by people offering software people could own and run all they wanted on theie own local systems untethered to any servers.

  73. Can vouch for these. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cataclysm is by far one of the most comprehensive and best open source games around. Post Apocalyptic+sci fi+fantasy CRPG with multilevel construction, vehicle construction, and enough skills to take you weeks or months to explore and master.

    Dwarf Fortress: procedurally generated history and lives with both a CRPG Adventurer mode and a Fortress city management mode, now interchangeable. The brothers who produce it are making ~100k/year in DONATIONs on a closed source freeware game that has been produced for 14+ years (I started playing it in ~2004 during college as a result of a a fellow student.)

    Rimworld: Not in my opinion as good as the other two, but with its own interesting features and take. It generates character histories more like GURPS or Traveller or another game with both advantages/disadvantages tied to history trees, stats, etc. Characters in-game may have other relatives on-planet or elsewhere in the universe. It is even possible for a child to end up older than the parent thanks to cryosleep. Characters have their own motivations similar to Fortress mode of Dwarf Fortress, in comparison to Cataclysm's anemic NPC ai. Structure building in RimWorld can require less micromanagement than DF or Cat and has its own features and nuances.

    That said you have to like the genre of 2d games they play into. If you prefer 3d adventure games or something like Subnautica, No Man's Sky, Conan: Exiles, or ARK, these games will not appeal to you. Dwarf Fortress *MAY* appeal to you if you're a fan of Minecraft, since Infiniminer, Minecraft, etc were inspired by its simplicity and multi-level exploration and construction.

  74. Re: Six Figures? BFD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that same intown grandfather's house is now selling for $450,000 or more unless it is in the neighborhoods with burgler bars on the windows - houses in more affordable towns or suburbs are $250,000 - their wages occasionally increased in the olden days

  75. Gotta love Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No sympathy here. None. All these people are participating in the Capitalist marketplace of ideas and selling of one's skills willingly. Happily taking that 6 figure salary to the bank every day, perusing the Mercedes or Tesla lots for their mobile status symbols. Then, they get the axe. Walked out of the building by security like they're suddenly criminals. LOL! Everyone who is a part of it deserves just what they get.

  76. idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the fired video game devs should just start their own company and make decent games worth playing...

  77. The quickest way to ruin the joy of any hobby by CptLoRes · · Score: 1

    is making it into a fulltime job.

  78. too much money involved by sad_ · · Score: 1

    there is too much money involved in AAA games today to not manage the whole production to death.
    you can still enjoy making games, and even have a successful game, but then you should go the indie route.
    ofcourse, the chance that it will be able to provide you with a steady monthly income is very small.

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.