Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job (nytimes.com)

The video game industry is richer than it has ever been. Its revenue in 2018 was $43.8 billion, a recent report estimated, thanks in large part to hugely popular games like Fortnite and Call of Duty. These record-breaking profits could have led one to think that the people who develop video games had it made. But then the blood bath began. From a story, shared by an anonymous reader: In February, Call of Duty's publisher, Activision Blizzard, laid off 8 percent of its staff, or nearly 800 workers, in a cost-cutting massacre. A few weeks later, the game studio ArenaNet cut dozens of positions, while smaller layoffs hit companies like Valve and the digital store operator GOG. And just last week, the video game giant Electronic Arts announced that it was laying off 350 people across the globe.

This brutal start to 2019 followed the closures of major game companies like Telltale, the makers of games based on The Walking Dead, and Capcom Vancouver, the large studio behind the popular action series Dead Rising in 2018. All in all, thousands of video game workers have lost their jobs in the past 12 months. In many of these cases, laid-off employees had no idea what was coming. One developer at a major studio told me in February that he and his colleagues had been crunching -- putting in long hours, including nights and weekends -- for a video game release, only to be suddenly told that security was waiting to escort them off the premises.

Worker exploitation has always been part of the video game industry's DNA. Executives with multimillion-dollar stock packages often treat their employees like Tetris pieces, to be put into place as efficiently as possible, then promptly disposed of. For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand. Some people who make video games receive decent salaries and benefits (experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures), but many do not.

Comments

Not as many people needed

[110010001000]

Essentially game development is now using a engine (like Unreal, etc) and hooking up scripts and creating assets. That is why so many "big" games look like clones at this point.

Re:Not as many people needed

[JD-1027]

Also, with most games now just online multiplayer with a few maps, development becomes much more simple. No need for AI when you have other humans to fill the niche. I guess I don't know for sure, but lack of any single player campaign mode probably really cuts down on development needs.

Re:Not as many people needed

[atrex]

IIRC in at least one of these rounds of mass layouts it was a lot of marketing and PR staff, rather than development staff.

Re:Not as many people needed

[110010001000]

That makes sense too. Plus the engines now come with support for networking/multiplayer. I know zero about game programming but I would think most of the time now is creating custom assets.

Re:Not as many people needed

[mjwx]

We've always known that games development was a brutal industry, ruled over by corporate overlords who want a product shipped ASAP. Fortunately this is changing as those massive games companies are starting to fail because people aren't buying Medal Of Snorefare 2001923 Modern Boredom or Generic Sports Reskinned for 20xx as much any more.

Essentially game development is now using a engine (like Unreal, etc) and hooking up scripts and creating assets. That is why so many "big" games look like clones at this point.

It's a bit more complex that that. However using a pre-existing engine is preferred because building a bespoke engine is so complicated that unless you've got millions in the bank and years to wait, its cheaper just to buy COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) engine and then build the game around that. This has actually been a huge boon for smaller games developers on PC, they can use Unreal or Unity to make a game on a shoestring budget compared to many the likes of EA, Ubisoft, et al. Consoles not so much as the gatekeepers (Sony/MS) are firmly in the corner of the big boys.

This is basically like the sports/super/hyper car industries these days. Noble automotive buys a Volvo, Yamaha or Ford engine, then builds a car designed to fit that with a bespoke frame and shell. So a company with limited resources can compete with the likes of VAG (VW/AUDI/Lambo) at the top end. We joke that Noble is "five blokes in a shed in Birmingham" but the M600 is a phenomenal car that I'd prefer over the Aventador or La Ferrari, it can only be that phenomenal because they're using a Volvo designed engine built by Yamaha.

Re:Not as many people needed

[Swistak]

Not to mention the safety regulations in EU make it basically impossible to certify the self-made engine for the road.

Re:Not as many people needed

[Dutch Gun]

You might be surprised. I've worked on several online games before, and multiplayer gameplay creates a significant set of technological challenges that single-player games don't have to worry about (predictive modeling, server-side validation, backend gameplay and matchmaking services, etc). And while the artists aren't necessarily creating a huge game world like in many single-player games, they're plenty busy. I don't think most people appreciate how much work goes into creating a single playable character, with all the unique models, animations, skins, weapons, effects, sounds, and voice work that go into each one.

Re:Not as many people needed

[93 Escort Wagon]

Essentially game development is now using a engine (like Unreal, etc) and hooking up scripts and creating assets. That is why so many "big" games look like clones at this point.

So the number of people needed to produce these is smaller, but the number of people trying to get into the field is probably still going up.

Which is why this anonymous story submission reads - at least to me - like something submitted by someone "in the biz" who is hoping to protect his job by telling people "no, you don't want to do this, it's terrible".

Apropos of nothing... you really shouldn't ever consider moving to Washington state - it rains all the time here.

Re:Not as many people needed

[Kjella]

Also, with most games now just online multiplayer with a few maps, development becomes much more simple. No need for AI when you have other humans to fill the niche.

Except all the tweaking as players constantly find new ways to exploit your game mechanics, flaws in your maps etc. in ways that weren't intended but still don't really qualify as cheating or exploiting bugs. Keeping a competitive multiplayer balanced is certainly not a fire-and-forget thing.

Re:Not as many people needed

[thegarbz]

You have a completely unrealistic view of what an engine brings to the table. It's nothing like your bizarre fantasy. Big games have many hundreds of thousands of man hours in them even using established and easy to use engines.

Re:Not as many people needed

[Darinbob]

Games are getting more expensive too because they're being treated like blockbuster movies. Tons of expensive cut scenes (some games are nothing more than cut scenes with some minigames or QTEs in the middle), full voice acting, many gigabytes of textures, and maybe if they have time they bother with a story or gameplay. They are rushed out the door because they have deadlines - they gotta get it out in time for Christmas, every single year.

Just like blockbuster movies they have endlessly rehashed franchises, reboots, and copies of whatever genre seemed to sell a lot in the previous year, but no time or money for actual originality. But that's ok because the vast majority of the customers don't care, they probably won't even play the games to the end since they only buy whatever is the most popular and stop playing it when something new comes out (if they play something old they're laughed at by their friends), and the customers don't mind that they're only renting games instead of owning them.

Just like Hollywood, the interesting stuff happens with the independent developers and producers.

Re:Not as many people needed

[Darinbob]

Of course they copy other games' look and feel, since originality is in short supply. No one wants to try something different because that's risky.

Using pre-made game engines means that the "hard" stuff is done already. What's left is often the tedious parts; making all the lego pieces for the assets (sounds, textures, models). I was suprised at this quote in the summary:

(experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures),

Believe me, the game engine developers are making six figure salaries, and so are the game designers and the majority of everyone writing actual code. So the fact that they had to point out the "six figures" part implies that most of the workers are either seriously underpaid or they're not in major US metropolitan areas (yup, lots of game people off in eastern Europe for this reason).

Re:Not as many people needed

[110010001000]

Of course, but I would imagine they would be creating assets, scripts, dialogue, etc. An engine brings a lot to the table: graphics, networking, sound support, controller, physics, AI, etc. For example, one person can create a minecraft clone now in a single week. Most "big games" are just the same old crap with new assets.

Re:Not as many people needed

[Darinbob]

But not hundreds of thousands of hours of serious computer programming necessarily. Most of the work involves creating assets and shoving them into a big database and others taking those assets and linking them together and a few who write in some simplified scripting language. Only a handful of people will actually be adding code or extensions to the game engine.

Re: Not as many people needed

[Anonymous Coward]

To the public, Blizzard measures development time and cost in terms of raid tiers. That means planning dungeon layouts and architecture, boss fight design, equipment appearance and balancing, etc. Basically, game design and artwork. Not a whole lot in the way of programming beyond a bit of lua here and there compared to the much larger scale of the rest.

Game design, as a profession, is both low in demand, and isn't a very transferable skill. And other than effects artists (these people are really hard to find) the people that do the bulk of the artwork are a dime a dozen. While game programmers are easy to find, their skills are transferable, which does tend to shrink the candidate pool.

It could be argued that game design is psychology because you're trying to get into the player's head and figure out what is fun to them and what isn't. However, few people have an innate talent for it, and unlike with psychology, colleges can't seem to create good game designers. Though some good game designers have gone on to become good psychologists...

Rush in

[Tablizer]

If everyone and their dog want to do it, then there's lots of cut-throat competition and employers know they can treat you like crap. My relative found this out in the clothing designer industry.

Re:Rush in

[lgw]

If everyone and their dog want to do it, then there's lots of cut-throat competition and employers know they can treat you like crap. My relative found this out in the clothing designer industry.

"And the man in the suit has just bought a new car with the profits he made on your dreams."

It's an old story.

Re:Rush in

[Monkey-Wrench-Inc]

Appropriate lyric, indeed. Wish I hadn't already spent my mod points.

Re:Rush in

[Anonymous Coward]

Traffic - Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys if anyone wonders where the quote is from.

Re:Rush in

[Darinbob]

Yup, if you want a decent job with some amount of security and a salary to get slightly ahead of the pack, then you need to not be a member of the crowd that all do the same thing. If a huge number of people can do your job and everyone has the exact same set of skills that they learned in a certification course and the goal is for everyone to be a cookie-cutter clone of each other, then expect your job to be outsourced to the cheapest person. But if you can do a job where there's more demand for it than the supply, and you can do it better than your peers, then generally you'll do well in that job.

Re:Rush in

[Zehsi]

it's not that easy. A few years ago yanks were crying about their jobs being outsourced to europe (to ireland, etc). Now even eastern-europe outsource their jobs to pakistan and india. You simply can't compete with a pakistani girl coding for baksheesh. And any girl who can use a phone can learn coding in unity, it's that simple.

Nightmares are dreams too

[Roger W Moore]

Technically it could still be a dream job. Not all dreams are enjoyable.

Re:Nightmares are dreams too

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, old programmers don't fade away... they die! They die screaming!

Re:Nightmares are dreams too

[DaFallus]

A nightmare is a type of dream...

Hold on....

[MitchDev]

"Worker exploitation has always been part of the EVERY industry's DNA"

There, FTFY

Re:Hold on....

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's simply not true. It _can_ be part of massive companies, but there's plenty of companies people actually like working for.

The game industry, however, has been that way for a long, long time. The spouses of Electronic Arts actually sued EA 15 years ago!

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-settles-ot-dispute-disgruntled-spouse-outed/1100-6148369/

I used know someone that worked in games. Her bosses told her "this is what our industry is like". This is what people mean when they say it's in the DNA.

Re:Hold on....

[flippy]

It can be true of any company in any industry.

It's more of a symptom of the modern workplace than any given industry. The only way this will stop happening is if people value themselves and don't put up with bad treatment, regardless of the industry.

In the immortal words of Danny Glover, "I'm getting too old for this s**t." I, for one, refuse to let any company create an unpleasant life for me. Make my work life unpleasant? Goodbye - I'll be moving to another job.

It's like with anything else

[SuperKendall]

Bad headline.

Making video games CAN be a dream job.

But, probably not if you are doing so for a huge company. That's the same with almost any work that can be pleasurable, until you mix in a giant organization you have to please with a million bosses above you who all have a say.

The thing is, there has never been a better time to be a game developer and make games in a very small (sometimes just yourself) company.

Re:It's like with anything else

[chispito]

That's the same with almost any work that can be pleasurable, until you mix in a giant organization you have to please with a million bosses above you who all have a say.

The thing is, there has never been a better time to be a game developer and make games in a very small (sometimes just yourself) company.

Small shops can have too many bosses, too. Partnerships, for instance. You also may not be able to specialize in a particular area, because you are more likely to be wearing many hats. Not saying working for a megacorp is always better, but there are tradeoffs either way.

Fishing

[bill_mcgonigle]

I hear lots of kids say that they want to be game developers because they like to play games and they need a job when they're adults.

These same kids may enjoy fishing too (some of them get outside...) but very few have aspirations of becoming commercial fishermen. Somehow they know that's a very rough job that's not for most people.

*Anybody* considering a career really needs to think through the work/life balance and pay, from clerk to physician, and do their research. Somehow I don't think most gamers ever do that when they decide to go to school to be a game dev.

I've told a few high-schoolers about EA Widows and they were really surprised to hear it.

Re:Fishing

[valles]

I had read that game industry, was an invitation only club. That's why I try to go the indie route. The market is flooded with competition now, too many people risking everything to try and catch a break.

Re:Fishing

[King_TJ]

Yep! Very true!

I think a lot of kids don't realize how different a skill-set is required to write good code vs becoming a good gamer. They just really enjoy playing their favorite video games and think it would be cool to have their name on the credits as someone who actually made one of them.

Honestly, video games have become such large productions these days, I suspect they're more like creating Hollywood movies than anything else. If you're a really good artist and can draw the kinds of creatures, characters and backgrounds a game needs, you might be more employable doing that than just being a coder? Same thing for someone good at composing soundtracks for a game title, or someone good at doing voice-overs.

As many people are pointing out here? Most titles today are using off the shelf engines to handle the bulk of the grunt work, so making unique games is more about filling in that audio and visual content than coding the skeleton.

Re:Fishing

[Cederic]

Indie games developers are part of the industry.

But it's never been invitation only anyway, and the indie developers are a big factor in why.

Not all indie developers are going to sell their game to Microsoft for a couple of billion dollars but experienced game designers and developers with proven delivery of successful games will get the invitations anyway.

So even if you want to work for the big companies, you don't need anybody to invite you into the industry. Just start writing games.

I see

[cascadingstylesheet]

Some people who make video games receive decent salaries and benefits (experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures), but many do not.

So ... like other jobs?

Re: Need an UNION BAD!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

But that's like ~SocIALisM~ bruh, we'll all slip down a slope where innovation stops and every video game is basically the same.... oh wait.

An industry that preys on the naive

[chispito]

I always give younger people starting out their careers the same general advice that I was given and subsequently failed to heed as early as I should have: Find something you are good at and seek a job in whatever industry needs that skillset and will allow you to develop it further. Basically, I try to tell them to keep their "passion" for a particular cause or industry at bay, and develop their skills and resume instead. This is for two reasons.

1) You aren't going to become CEO of Sustainable Tech Incorporated because you loved what they stood for so much you took a job in the mail room. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen.
And, 2) You will learn to appreciate the benefit that different industries provide, and how just being good at something helps out your coworkers and customers.

The video games industry is notorious for running sweat shops that prey on the young and naive, people who would do better to find a steady, "boring" gig with a 401k and reasonable chances for advancement. Maybe something union, if that floats your boat.

Re:An industry that preys on the naive

[grep -v '.*' *]

What's that -- don't follow your passion? Mike Rowe

"Find something you are good at and seek a job in whatever industry needs that skillset and will allow you to develop it further. " A friend of mine decades ago said: "Find a niche and exploit it."

You'll have to get up and do the same thing pretty much each day whether you want to or feel like it or not, so you might as well try to find something that you enjoy. You might like the money but if you hate the job you'll be miserable; don't pick the job just because of the money.

Solo Programming

[Tempest_2084]

My interest ended when it was no longer possible for a single programmer (or a very small group) to make games anymore. When I was a kid growing up with my Atari 400 and Apple II I dreamed of possibly being able to come up with a new game idea, programming it, and getting it published somewhere. However by the time I was in college and getting my computer science degree I realized that those days were long over and games were far too complex to make by yourself. Not to mention the whole industry had changed drastically by that time becoming the meat grinder it is today.

Personally I don't know why anyone would want to make games for a living anymore. Even if you don't mind the grueling hours, crappy management, and relatively low pay, it sucks the fun out of what you used to enjoy.

Re:Solo Programming

[Dutch Gun]

Why do you think it's now impossible to make games with a small group or solo dev? In fact, I'm a solo dev doing that right now, and there are plenty of other examples. Obviously, you can't expect to create a game that competes with AAA stuff, but there are plenty of game types that are well within reach of a single developer. Modern tools and language improvements allow you to be vastly more productive and do much, much more than you ever could back in the Apple II days (my first computer too).

Re:Solo Programming

[Oswald McWeany]

My interest ended when it was no longer possible for a single programmer (or a very small group) to make games anymore. When I was a kid growing up with my Atari 400 and Apple II I dreamed of possibly being able to come up with a new game idea, programming it, and getting it published somewhere. However by the time I was in college and getting my computer science degree I realized that those days were long over and games were far too complex to make by yourself. Not to mention the whole industry had changed drastically by that time becoming the meat grinder it is today.

Personally I don't know why anyone would want to make games for a living anymore. Even if you don't mind the grueling hours, crappy management, and relatively low pay, it sucks the fun out of what you used to enjoy.

Sure you can; there are still games out there written by small groups or individuals. Some even sell astonishingly well. The trick is, you're going to have to stay motivated and have a day job in the beginning. It takes a lot longer to write a game by yourself than when you have room(s) full of developers. You're not going to compete with the big guys in graphics, effects, or music.

The trick to being a small operation is being creative. You've got to write a game, or reimagine a genre in a way that hasn't been done before, and is still fun. You've got to embrase quirky graphics, go pixel or 8 bit if you have to- embrase it! You're probably not going to write a good FPS that can compete with the big guys- so think of something different, something more unique.

Re:Solo Programming

[drinkypoo]

My interest ended when it was no longer possible for a single programmer (or a very small group) to make games anymore.

So you're still interested? Because there are tons and tons of indie games developed by one person or a small group. You're not going to get your game on a retail shelf, but you can sell it directly (or through just one middleman) and collect most of the profits yourself.

Re:Solo Programming

[110010001000]

Wasn't Minecraft created by one guy?

Re:Solo Programming

[lance_of_the_apes]

It is possible. There are lots of small studios that can cut it as long as they produce quality work and aren't trying to go up against the big studios directly. It is hard to set yourself apart, but simple games can still be successful.

Re:Solo Programming

[lance_of_the_apes]

After many years of game industry experience as a cog in the machine, I am now also a solo developer. I went to an indie meetup not that long ago and came across a guy even older than me. He was talking about how "easy it is" to make games nowadays. It is certainly true that there are more opportunities than ever; that free engines, resources, tutorials, and publishing platforms are plentiful. Back in "our day," those things hardly existed or not at all. Of course, he's mostly right.

However, it is also true that there is more competition than ever because of how much easier it is, at least to get started. Expectations have also gone up drastically. Still, I'd like to think that there is still room for innovation and a small, dedicated studio can enjoy success, even in this overcrowded market. Cheers, and good luck to you!

Re:Solo Programming

[Tempest_2084]

The indie game/solo programmer reemergence phenomena has only come about in the past 5+ years. My experience is based on when I was in college and had to make a decision on what I wanted to do with my life (circa late 90's). At the time there really wasn't any large scale indie game programming unless you want to count shareware which isn't a viable career path. Maybe if I was graduating now I would do things differently.

Re:Solo Programming

[ikhider]

You don't need 3-D rendering and C/GPU-hogging programs to make good games. There are some text-based games that are far more fun than most 3-D and virtual games will ever be. Ideas trump graphics. Same goes for films. A lot of this CGI-crap cannot touch films made before CGI was even a thing, where story, script, acting, and skilful set design still held some value. It still holds value. Heck, a bunch of humans around a card table rolling dice and going over scenarios seems buckets more fun than 'grinding' for manna on WoW for days at a time. Maybe you do your low-tech thing and it will turn out to be better than corporate high tech merde.

Re:Solo Programming

[spacegrrrl5604]

So I had a hand in the games industry some years back. It was a soul crushing thing to be sure. Particularly if you bought into the belief you needed to be part of the AAA titles that all the publishers seem focused on. However there are many stories of small shops making some very fun games. One thing I always argued with people about was the trap that having to have that "perfect" game. I saw many folks in decision making positions waste huge amounts of time on pursuit of that high end graphics experience never bothering to ask themselves in their games were any fun. For every huge production massive team title there is a Flappy Bird that is entertaining just as many people.

If you are passionate about something you think will be fun to play consider building it in the simplest way possible to deliver the elements of what you think makes it fun. It doesn't need to have photo realistic graphics or the best ever physics. Chasing that "as real as real life" experience is missing the point. Humans are easily amused, don't forget that key element. A couple of clever and/or creative folks can create games that will engage folks even if they aren't "high end". Heck, I'll still waste an hour playing pong if I am bored.

If you are going into game development to make tons of cash and have an amazing challenging software engineering experience you should rethink your choices. I don't think the majority of game developers are finding the experiences today very rewarding.

Re:Solo Programming

[lance_of_the_apes]

"Heck, I'll still waste an hour playing pong if I am bored." The question is, would you buy it?

I think developers that dream of making games are generally not dreaming of Flappy Bird. Still, it is good general advice to start simple.

Re:Solo Programming

[Zehsi]

you can publish your shit for 25 euro on android. For 99 on iphone. For 100 on steam. For 0 on itch. You can buy unity3d fo 0 euro. Blender for 0 euro. Aseprite for 15. Yeah, gamedeving is expensive. /s

"Learn to Code"

[Zorro]

That worked out.....OK maybe not.

I am no longer a programmer

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

and when I was, it was for mainframes, so the languages I know/knew (been trying to forget COBOL forever) would be of minimal use for game design.

However, it seems to be some of these mass laid-off employees could band together and form their own firm, no?
Clearly they've got the knowledge, and here would be a prime opportunity to make, not only a better game (free of P2P/P2W,etc) but a better working environment as well.

I dunno, I don't work in that field any more, maybe I'm way off...

Re:I am no longer a programmer

[omnichad]

With ready to use game engines like Unity, you really mainly need scripting rather than heavy programming skills. Most of the effort is in game design and developing graphic assets.

Re:I am no longer a programmer

[jeff4747]

The layoffs in TFS were mostly in the marketing/PR/customer support parts of the companies. Very few were developers. So they're not in a good position to create a new gaming company.

Supply and Demand

[hedge00]

When the hiring manager has starry-eyed young hopefuls lined up out the door and around the block, who view a game developer job as the culmination of their lifelong dream, of course working condition will be shit. Because you're all easily replaceable. So you put in unpaid overtime during crunch time and get laid off after the product ships. Contrast this to someone who does non-glorified skilled work and has a reliable job and decent work/life balance.

Video Games for Big Corps is not fun

[foxalopex]

From everything I've heard it can be extremely difficult and thankless working for a large Video Game corporation. So this is hardly a surprise. It's a lot more rewarding I imagine if you're an Indy Game designer who succeeds.

Winter is coming

[Comboman]

Companies all over are scaling back their fixed costs because they know another recession is coming in the next 6 to 12 months thanks to Trump's tariffs/trade wars/general instability. It'll be a bad one too, because the tools government normally uses to fight recession (tax cuts & interest rate cuts) have already been used by Trump in a failed attempt to boost his popularity.

Re:Winter is coming

[Oswald McWeany]

Companies all over are scaling back their fixed costs because they know another recession is coming in the next 6 to 12 months thanks to Trump's tariffs/trade wars/general instability. It'll be a bad one too, because the tools government normally uses to fight recession (tax cuts & interest rate cuts) have already been used by Trump in a failed attempt to boost his popularity.

To be fair, as anyone who has already filed taxes (and isn't wealthy) has already found out. Trump's tax cut was actually a tax-raise for most people. It was only a tax cut for the wealthiest. I know lots of people who are used to getting several thousand dollar refunds now owing several thousand to the government instead.

There is room for tax cuts- just roll them back to how they were three years ago.

Re:Winter is coming

[XanC]

You're not confusing the final tax-day reconciliation (refund vs owing) with the actual tax burden, are you?

Re:Winter is coming

[kenai_alpenglow]

Probably because they live in a high-tax state and can't deduct those sky-high taxes. My taxes did go down, and I am not a high-income earner by no means. Newsflash: Because you are too idiotic to vote out your politicians who raise your outrageous property taxes, or increase regulations where it's hard/impossible to buy a decent house for less than 6-7 digits, don't blame Trump for that. Why should I subsidize you're lack of vision?

Re:Winter is coming

[Ogive17]

My company has been on a soft hiring freeze the past year. We've had 4 people move on to other opportunities and have only been able to replace 1. It wouldn't be so bad if they'd spread some of that extra money out to those of us left (only 5 of us remain).

Overall sales look good however our industry is one of those most impacted by Trump's trade war. I do not disagree with his intentions on improving trade, especially with China.. but the plan seems to be just burn everything down.. I don't think there's a next step.

Re:Winter is coming

[Dragonslicer]

Why should I subsidize you're lack of vision?

Because you don't. The wealthier states, generally with higher state taxes, subsidize the poorer states.

For testers it's even worse

[Higaran]

Game testers are treated even more like garbage, often they are employed by a separate company, and crammed into the basement for minimum wage.

Re:For testers it's even worse

[Shotgun]

So that's why all those Slashdotters stay in the basement. Is the "separate company" named MOM?

Not just the gaming industry

[foeclan]

This really isn't specific to the gaming industry.

My first job (printer company) I lost because we were acquired and they wanted to cull the herd.
My second job (storage company) I lost because we outsourced everything.
My third job (HPC company) I lost because our CEO was an idiot and ran the company into the ground.
My fourth job (storage company) I lost because we bought our biggest competitor, put them in charge of my division, and then strangely we took the brunt of the cuts.

experienced programmers at the richest studios can make six figures
Experienced programmers pretty much anywhere should be making six figures. If they're not, they're probably being taken advantage of.

Re:Not just the gaming industry

[Kjella]

Sounds like you had a bad beat. I think gaming is even worse though because most businesses need some kind of continuity in customers, solutions and business relationships that very few gaming companies do. If your game is shit on release day you very quickly lose users and never get them back. Or you have people who grin and bear it but it's not really helping if you fix it three or six months down the line. If it's a success you'll have lots of users who's never played any of your games before. It's a constant gamble that almost always end in an insane crunch followed by uncertainty of whether they're making another game.

That said, I'm not that surprised at the passing of Telltale though maybe I believed it was just me. I loved Sam & Max (2006-2010), Tales of Monkey Island (2009) and Back to the Future (2010) kinda fit the zany humor too. The Walking Dead: Season One (2012) was a mix of adventure walking around and interactive cinematic fighting zombies, it needed that urgency of "act or die". Season two (2013-2014) was epic. But then they went overboard on the interactive movie thing, it's like the whole thing was just a game to press up, down, left, right, Q, E as the story played start to end and the Hollywood IP started to take over making a compelling story. It became a lame version of being at the cinema, I bought the final two seasons of TWD but they were both let downs I was just invested in the characters.

Fortunately they did manage to pull off a skeleton crew to close it out, but damn was the ending disappointing... MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD I mean it's a post-apocalyptic zombie universe where people die constantly. They'd previously announced, before the closure that this would be TWD: The final season. So I expected this to go off in like wildly different directions where Clementine would sacrifice herself for something, but for what was unclear. Instead we got a "and they lived happily ever after" ending where both Clem and AJ survive and only minor side characters die that was totally unrealistic. If you're bitten you have to amputate immediately and fighting so long and being so pale she'd die from the shock and blood loss of a major amputation anyway. It was supposed to be miraculous, it was just silly.

Nothing New

[alvinrod]

This is hardly a new problem or something that people haven't been aware of for decades. The EA Spouse blog is almost 15 years old at this point and its the same story.

With the rise of Steam and in a broader sense digital distribution itself, there's no reason you can't make your own game. Minecraft became one of the biggest and most successful games of all times. More recently, Stardew Valley has sold millions of copies, and it too was made by an independent developer. You can even make big 3D games thanks to things like Kickstarter. Kingdom Come Deliverance raised money through crowdfunding and produced a title that's similar in scope to an Elder Scrolls games, so you're hardly limited to just 2D sprite graphics. I think Star Citizen raised more than any other Kickstarter project ever.

So if you think working for the man sucks, then quit and start your own company, make your own game, and be the one to reap the rewards of your own effort.

Re:Nothing New

[Skubman]

Wait, those are all good points. Has anyone done the analysis to determine if the rise of decentralized game design has made the issues with corporate design worse? I mean, some guy is making battlefield from the ground up and moddable (Ravenfield).

Six Figures? BFD!

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to have a middle class life - support a family of four ( own a house, own a car, health insurance (and dental & vision), retirement savings), all on a single income requires a six figure salary in most places in the USA.

My grandfather did all that ( a family of seven!) on a BLUE COLLAR pay check - and all he had was a ninth grade education.

What's different? Aside from the fact that there were more opportunities back then and that about 10% of people went to college (and college was much cheaper back then), he was in a union.
The union made sure people got training, acted as a buffer for technology changes, and made sure management didn't abuse the workers too much. I'm not saying it was perfect but it was better than today.

Back then, they had stakeholder capitalism. Everyone - investors, workers, local residents (government) - had a say in the company.
Now it's all investors' interests and everyone else can go screw. Wealth rules - everyone else drools.

Miner wants to destroy the local environment and pollute the drinking water and destroy the fisheries downstream?
It's all good. Pretest and then you hate: jobs, capitalism, and America! Tough shit if the residents of that mining town have to drink bottled tap water out of plastic bottles.

Stakeholder capitalism = good.
Shareholder capitalism = evil.

Suckers!

[EllisDees]

Working long hours for a company that doesn't give a shit about you is strictly for suckers. Get in at 8:30, leave at 5:30, take an hour for lunch. Go home and enjoy the money you make. Encourage everyone else to do the same. You will be fine.

Re:Suckers!

[zerocommazero]

This is true. Most people work like its an iron man competition. You need to feel out your employer. You also have to able to honestly assess yourself and your abilities. Some reward effort, most just take it for granted. Best bet is to trial it, work harder for a set time to make yourself stand out, try to discuss with your superiors. If you don't get the answer you want, then move on or find a Plan B first and then renegotiate. If they don't value you enough, move on to plan B. The only time to discuss salary is during the hiring process or negotiation if you threaten to leave. You'll see most employers see salaries, just like any other problem. They won't give it any attention until its in their face/blows up. The longer they can get away with not paying you properly, the more money they are keeping to themselves.

Re:Suckers!

[angel'o'sphere]

8:30 is to early to get in and 5:30 is to early to get out, and my lunch break is 30 mins, not 60 ..., I try to cut it to 20mins, though.

Re:Suckers!

[ljw1004]

Working long hours for a company that doesn't give a shit about you is strictly for suckers. Get in at 8:30, leave at 5:30, take an hour for lunch. Go home and enjoy the money you make. Encourage everyone else to do the same. You will be fine.

Oh! I'd consider 8:30-5:30 an unacceptably long day. I do a solid 9-5 in tech, and think that's enough, and I tell my reports the same. (we work for a company that does care about us, fortunately).

Re:Suckers!

[110010001000]

It depends. I actually enjoy my work. Sorry you don't.

Re: Suckers!

[angel'o'sphere]

Which problem?

No one has a problem when I work from 11:00 - 19:00 and make a 30 mins break. Especially when I go afterwards directly from work to my martial arts classes.

Re:Suckers!

[EllisDees]

So you volunteer as a sucker?

Re:Suckers!

[EllisDees]

Lol. That's the funny part. I do too, but I'm not going to devalue my work by giving it away. 40 hours is the deal, and I'm sticking to it.

Someone's got blinders on

[atrex]

Anyone that thinks working for a major video game developer is a dream job has had some big time blinders on for a very long time. We've had numerous reports over the last decade about the crunch culture, overtime, stress, and etc that developers at major studios suffer from.

Lots of Independent Titles

[KalvinB]

...are still being made.

No one says you have to make graphically and mechanically complex games.

What we used to consider top of the line video games are now considered leisure games. And there is a huge market for them.

If you want to make games with a small team, pick up all those throwback consoles and find something you want to create your own version of.

Re:Six Figures? BFD!

[110010001000]

Not sure what you are talking about. Mining companies for example destroyed much of America back in your Grandfathers day. Industry have zero controls over oversight. And the Unions didn't care about anything about "stakeholder" capitalism.

That is also true of the game industry

[SuperKendall]

It _can_ be part of massive companies, but there's plenty of companies people actually like working for.

But that is equally true of companies that make video games - some can be great to work for.

It's kind of absurd to claim video game jobs are bad, when what we are all rather obviously saying is "working under EA is bad". Why not just say that rather than trying to mislead someone who may want to develop games for a living?

Re:That is also true of the game industry

[lgw]

As a sector, video game development is bad. It's not just EA. It's not just Blizzard. It's not just Ubisoft. It's every large game company. Of course, you can start your own games company, but then you'll find your boss is really demanding.

Re:That is also true of the game industry

[Darinbob]

This is a bit like saying sometimes you get a great career in professional sports and therefore going with the sports scholarship and taking the dumbed down classes rather than learning a useful skill is a great idea. There may be 10 great positions available out there but you have a hundred thousand people all trying to get them.

sucks

[lactose99]

Man if there were only an organization out there for the worker, like a union of some sort...

Re:Things that are cool mean exploitation.

[omnichad]

I thought LA was Silicone Valley.

Not all doom and gloom

[doofologist]

I worked at a smaller studio for years in IT, and while it was absolutely grueling work, it was a crucible for pushing you to think creatively and pull together to make awesome things. The programmers are typically pulled fresh out of college for low salaries, but after a few years nearly all of them 'graduated' and moved on to jaw-dropping raises and positions at tech companies. The ones that didn't stayed for love of the community and culture, but over time the high performers got wise and learned their skills were highly sought after (i.e. creating account authentication systems from scratch, an in-house DB schema, system management tools,etc.). The freedom in that environment let all of us work on things that most companies would be terrified to tackle ; I learned as an IT person that programmers were either our greatest asset or our greatest liability

However, after getting sucked up by a large publisher, that spirit certainly began to dwindle a bit. Shortly after I got caught in a large layoff, however I too found that other companies outside of the gaming industry could benefit from my experience, and ironically it was a lot more money for a lot less work.

What I think can be missed is taking for granted the gaming culture in the workplace; when WoW had an expansion (or when Skyrim released), work 'STOPPED', and the whole company was talking about it. Watercooler talk about class specs or planning raids is something I really miss, as outside of the industry I'm typically one of maybe two people in a company that can talk about new game releases or announcements.

Anyone who thinks it is a dream job...

[argStyopa]

...is someone who hasn't been paying attention for the last 20+ years and sorry but that would suggest they're so inattentive to important things that they probably deserve to be paid and treated like disposables.

Sorry, but the truth can be painful.
Nobody's entitled to make a living wage "following their dream". That's not how the world works.

Re:No shit.

[Bert64]

Exactly, if a few people start letting the companies exploit them like that then the companies will start to perceive it as normal and expected.

Re:Need an UNION BAD!!!

[locopuyo]

A union won't magically bypass supply and demand. There are literally people making games for free and they're better than a lot of the people getting paid to do it.

Revenue is not profits. Earnings are profits.

[ankhcraft]

When I see record-breaking revenue being referred to as recording-breaking profits, I must question the validity of the article: Revenue == Top-line (not profits) Earnings == Bottom-line (profits)

Avoid AAA games

[Berkyjay]

This is why I only play indy games these days. I get more fun out of Rimworld, Cataclysm, & Dwarf Fortress as I ever did out of any of the AAA games spewed out these days.

Re:Avoid AAA games

[Hallux-F-Sinister]

This is why I only play indy games these days. I get more fun out of Rimworld, Cataclysm, & Dwarf Fortress as I ever did out of any of the AAA games spewed out these days.

I thought AAA games just produced titles like Road Maps Galore, Plastic Spare Key Maker, and Tow Truck Driver 1986.

Re:Avoid AAA games

[Cederic]

Nah, Euro Truck Simulator 2 and American Truck Simulator are created by what was a small independent studio.

They're not as small any more, but that's because they've been successful

Re:subject

[Dragonslicer]

Experienced game developers *can* make six figures? Most experienced developers outside the game industry *do* make six figures.

In cities with a large number of technology companies, entry-level developers make six figures.

Hasn't been a dream job since the 80s

[crgrace]

Making games hasn't been a dream job since the 80s and maybe not even then. I grew up in the 80s and like millions got interested in technology through video games. I got deep into the hobby, wrote loads of half-finished games and even finished a few! One was a sort-of popular public domain missile command clone for the Mac that led to a job offer from Borland (they didn't know I was 16 at the time).

In those days, most games were made alone or in very small teams, by folks who worked close to the metal and truly, deeply knew the ins-and-outs of their chosen platform. I knew the Macintosh toolbox frontwards and backwards, other guys knew the Amiga co-processors soup-to-nuts. It was exciting to push the limits and you got to really own a project. It is hard to convey how satisfying it was to really make the computer do more than it was intended to do because you had hard-won deep understanding. Everything you knew you either figured out or was passed to you by your friends like ancient lore. It was magical to do technical work in a time before google or stackexchange.

A few of my friends in the community became professional game programmers about that time (late 80s / early 90s) and it was already changing. The emerging Windows standard and the appearance of engines was starting to insulate players from the metal (huge counterexamples like Doom notwithstanding). The teams were getting big, producers who weren't necessarily technical started taking over creative control, specialist artists and musicians started joining ever larger teams, and programmers were relegated to a more technical, and somewhat less creative roll.

I didn't see this first hand (I got into hardware in college and haven't looked back) but in chats with friends who went to places like EA, Disney, Sony, and so on, the job became more and more a grind.

Lots of tech jobs have death marches (I certainly do in ASIC design), but the difference is game companies like to pretend that they are doing YOU a favor by employing you. Like you should do technical wonders and work insane hours because you have the privilege to be living the dream making games. Screw that.

In other words, many of the things that attracted technical people to games in the first place have been taken away from us for decades now and yet the myth that working in games is some kind of dream job persists. I've known it kind of sucked from at least the mid 90s.

We need a 32nd amendment

[Hallux-F-Sinister]

A well regulated Economy being necessary to the prosperity of a free State, the right of the people to enjoy a reasonable and equitable share of the fruits of their labor shall not be infringed.

Re: We need a 32nd amendment

[Hallux-F-Sinister]

Thatâ(TM)s (thirty) second amendment, by the way. ;-)

It would go on thus:

Congress shall enact laws, and from time to time revisit them as necessary, to ensure that no person, neither natural nor corporate, shall monopolize resources generated by nor provided for the benefit of all; minimum and maximum wages for work shall be established and enforced. Income from sources besides work shall be taxed at such rates as to ensure that remuneration therefrom shall in no event exceed that which may be earned through compensable labor given the limitations of the maximum wage set at that time.

Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation

[tepples]

Why do you think it's now impossible to make games with a small group or solo dev?

You might need a "small group" just for the organizational and accounting aspects of dealing with the console makers that act as gatekeepers to your market. For example, the PlayStation developer signup form currently requires each developer to be a corporation or LLC with its own tax ID, an office with a static IPv4 address, and a domain name with website and email under that domain. SIE declines to do business with sole proprietorships, and many ISPs offer a static IP only to offices in commercially zoned areas, not to home offices.

Re:Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation

[MooseTick]

"For example, the PlayStation developer signup form [playstation.com] currently requires each developer to be a corporation or LLC with its own tax ID, an office with a static IPv4 address, and a domain name with website and email under that domain. SIE declines to do business with sole proprietorships, and many ISPs offer a static IP only to offices in commercially zoned areas, not to home offices."

Those are excuses. An individual can form a LLC or Corp C/S with tax ID for a few hundred dollars. You can get a static IP and domain name for $25/month (not at your residence, but that isn't required).

And an individual can make games and make money. Many "phone" games are made by individuals. Most are duds, but it can happen. It doesn't take a team to write classics like Tetris, Pac-Man, etc. Even Minecraft was originally written by one person. And he ended up selling it for billions!

Re:Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation

[cruff]

...and many ISPs offer a static IP only to offices in commercially zoned areas, not to home offices.

It's easy to get a virtual private server hosted at an ISP for a small sum per month to establish an static IP address.

Re:Sole proprietors cannot develop for PlayStation

[tepples]

An individual can form a LLC or Corp C/S with tax ID for a few hundred dollars.

Google Search pulls up "How to Incorporate a Business", and I understand about half of what's written there. Could you recommend an introductory book or the like that describes likely pitfalls in incorporating a software or entertainment business and how to avoid them?

You can get a static IP and domain name for $25/month (not at your residence, but that isn't required).

This would be a VPS to use as a VPN endpoint, correct?

Re:Need an UNION BAD!!!

[tepples]

There are literally people making games for free and they're better than a lot of the people getting paid

If this is the case, the scarce resource is not developers as much as marketing. It costs money to bring even a finished PC game to consoles so that users uninterested in PC maintenance rigmarole or behind a restrictive download cap can play.

Re:Six Figures? BFD!

[Anonymous Coward]

Grandfather had a 1200 sqft house.
1 car
B/W TV or no TV
Radio

You can EASILY do that on min wage or slightly more in most of US. What you are bitching about is big screen TV, Netflix, Hulu, 3 cars, going out drinking multiple times a week, multiple cell phones, and on and on.

Compare apples to apples. You don't need a 3000 sqft house otherwise you DO need six figure.

Gamedevs make it too easy

[bettodavis]

To be treated badly by companies, by accepting such treatment just to keep doing their "dream job".

The whole game development industry seems fueled by the youthful energy of dreamers "just wanting to make games", and accepting crappy bosses, lower salaries, rushed schedules, unpaid overtime and other anomalies, that would drive people away in any other part of the software or media development industries.
Yeah, there's not much one person can do. It's a market offer and demand situation. Lots of software developers and artists get into programming & art because of a childhood desire to make video games.

If you can't take it anymore, you better leave. There always will be more fresh meat to grind, and young rookies perfectly happy to take your place on the meat grinder.

And you could also find you can make a lot more money too, doing a lot less stressful work.

Re:subject

[Frobnicator]

Not all game developers are game programmers. Artists, animators, designers, audio engineers, they're all game developers, too. Many statistics that talk about game developers could be better broken out by discipline. Programmers are the highest paid of all the game development disciplines, and at senior levels they're comparable to other fields. I don't mean the trend of "senior" being applied to someone with three years experience, I'm referring to people with a decade or more of work experience working at established companies.

At the junior levels --- where there is more supply than demand and many young eager applicants are willing to work for exploitative companies --- programmers are often paid less than similar industries. There are many bad companies who churn-and-burn. This means a large number of junior developers have bad experiences because those abusive companies churn through so many.

At senior levels --- where demand is greater than supply and workers are generally savvy enough to not be exploited by the abusive companies --- pay rates are good. They're not investment banker or well funded Internet Startup good, but on par with programmers in many other industries.

The good companies that pay well also tend to grow slowly and have low turnover, meaning people are secure in their higher paying jobs, but the openings are less common (because of the low turnover) so they are less visible.

The "six figures" comments others are making are location specific and misleading. $100K in Silicon Valley is not a living wage. $100K in Des Moines is high. £100K in Yorkshire is an amazing rate.

How do I shot marketing?

[tepples]

Say someone does decide to save up enough money from his or her day jobs to incorporate and start building games. One thing I realized when considering going this route is that not everybody who has worked in a video game studio is skilled in all parts of the process. Could you recommend any good resources for a game developer to build skills in marketing, both to promote a game to the public and to promote a game to the console makers who operate the storefronts?

Re:How do I shot marketing?

[Cederic]

promote a game to the console makers

Starting as an independent with no immediate contacts in those organisations I think I'd focus on building a brand, community and successful product within the more accessible markets first - mobile or PC.

It's a lot easier to go to MS or Sony when you can prove there's demand for your product and it's beneficial to them to help you deliver it on their platform.

Re:How do I shot marketing?

[tepples]

focus on building a brand, community and successful product within the more accessible markets first - mobile or PC.

In principle, I'm inclined to agree. In practice, I'm interested to read how you would recommend to solve the following hurdles when bringing a handheld-style game to mobile or a console-style game to PC:

Input on mobile differs greatly from input on Nintendo handhelds. A flat sheet of glass is all you have. Or is there a market for mobile games that require or at least strongly recommend purchasing and pairing an external gamepad?

Are PC gamers willing to buy party games based on in-person interaction around a shared screen?

Re:How do I shot marketing?

[Cederic]

Mobile games port onto the PC and can be successful. Stuff like Battle Fleet 2 for instance. A 'touch to interact' interface translates quickly and easily to mouse input so if you design the game to eventually support mobile and PC then that's certainly an option.

I think finding an audience on mobile is very hard though, and I don't know how mobile translates to console, so I'd probably start on PC anyway.

Party games around a shared screen are available on PC but work best around a large screen in a family room. Most PCs aren't connected in that way; I think console is a far superior option for that.

Handheld type games aren't an area I'm terribly familiar with. They'll definitely translate to console, because the handhelds are basically small screen consoles (and often run legacy console games) and that means they'll also translate to PC. I think I'd cynically build a game that can port to console then plan to wait a decade then port it to the latest handheld. Greater codebase longevity, and can be tied into the marketing for a sequel..

Many console type games work just fine on PC, or better. Anything RPG, RTS, FPS, etc. Even racing games. I think party games and FIFA/NBA type sports games struggle, but stuff like Rocket League works is popular on PC and obviously there are the PC only games like Rimworld and the Football Manager series.

Re:How do I shot marketing?

[tepples]

Mobile games port onto the PC and can be successful.

I'm aware that porting touch to mouse or vice versa works well. But I was thinking the other way around: PC to mobile or console to mobile. That would require porting keyboard or gamepad to touch. How would you design practical touch control for an action platformer like Mega Man?

Party games around a shared screen are available on PC but work best around a large screen in a family room. Most PCs aren't connected in that way; I think console is a far superior option for that.

Which again raises the question of how to raise the funds and demonstrate the experience to become licensed on consoles in order to ship the game. Is it the case that a company's first game or two must be in genres other than party?

Re:How do I shot marketing?

[Cederic]

Good questions. Are there any games development conferences (or games conferences) near you any time soon at which you could meet indie developers that have been through this learning curve?

Re:How do I shot marketing?

[tepples]

Are there any games development conferences (or games conferences) near you any time soon at which you could meet indie developers that have been through this learning curve?

I don't know. How would I go about finding those in a given area (such as northeast Indiana)? Would I need to buy a car to attend one?

Not naive, just recent graduates

[Slugster]

Some years back there used to be a (US?) print magazine titled "Game Developer Magazine". It existed from 1994 to 2013. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

I read it at the time because of a general interest in programming and computer games. I didn't ever really expect to get a job doing it. And reading that magazine didn't really change that expectation...

There was basically about three kinds of articles they generally had:
--One was about new game hardware, software or related tech coming soon.
--One was called "Post Mortem" where after a game was released, they would have a manager talk about all the major problems they had along the way.
--The last was general management articles about running computer game production.

From reading this magazine occasionally for a couple years I gathered two things:
1. Many people who got hired to code were recent college grads in LA or Austin TX, who really just took the job to put something on their resumes. The lower coding jobs were low salary and long hours with little benefits, and they left as soon as they found anything better.

2. There were constant problems with employee turnover. Many articles were about how to set up content management systems so that it was as easy as possible to get new people up to speed and working productively.


I often wondered who the target audience for this magazine really was. From reading it, working at a game company really didn't sound like much of a dream job.

Re:Not naive, just recent graduates

[UnknownSoldier]

Ex professional game dev here. I was formally in the industry from 1995 to 2011. I give dev & design advice and do indie games on the side now.

Those articles were written by and for us professionals in the industry. Working at one company it was hard to see that everyone else had the same set of problems. GD Mag brought awareness:

- Securing funding
- Management setting unrealistic schedules
- Publishers setting artificial deadlines
- Not taking responsibility for burning people out
- Extremely high turn over due to kids thinking game development was easy
- Managing technical risk
- Managing innovation vs what worked last year
- Managing technical debt
- Managing scope
- Managing people
- Managing business relationships
- How to share knowledge
- Create an engine vs buying off the shelf
- What is fun?
- What makes a good game good? What makes a bad game bad
- What are today's and tomorrow art challenges?
- What is a good, flexible, scalable pipeline?
- How to avoid crunch time? How to manage crunch time?
- Audio design
- Animation tricks
- Technical tricks
- Applied higher level Mathematics
- etc.

I worked at several game development studios. While I started just out college almost all were dream jobs. I had the opportunity to learn tons about programming and about the game industry. I was extremely lucky. The industry is definitely volatile -- few smaller studios folded while I was working for them or shortly after I left. I only had to crunch a few times. Inspire of all the negatives about the industry it was a great opportunity to learn many things that just can't really be learnt any other way. You don't really understand something until you learn how NOT to do it.

I know people got burnt out, got taken advantage of, were exploited, and it sucks. A few companies actually cared about doing things right and treating people with respect. Don't judge an entire industry just because the majority cared about making money. Many, many people were in the industry because they were passionate about making games and entertaining people. Some just wanted the paycheck.

I wouldn't trade my experiences for anything.

--
Lies of Atheism: Your "bible" contains literal lies so the entire thing is worthless.

Re:Not naive, just recent graduates

[UnknownSoldier]

Ironically, I worked for EA before the whole EA spouse thing blew up. It was a real eye opener to how corrupt & immature the industry was.

There ARE still indies who care about making fun games and respecting the players. While they may be the minority they DO exist.

/noclip has an excellent documentary about Astroneer.

Re:Not naive, just recent graduates

[jma05]

Gunpoint was a great example for a 1-man (mostly) indie game, by someone who was barely even a programmer.
Tom Francis was himself inspired by Spelunky by Derek Yu.
FTL and SPAZ were 2-man teams.

Home-grown Indie games ala 80s are still viable. The good ones have more soul than an average AAA title churning out the next iteration in the franchise. They support modding and run on any basic laptop. And of course, there are a plenty of mobile games that are likely 1 or 2 person teams. Word and Puzzle games hardly require large teams.

Re:Not naive, just recent graduates

[UnknownSoldier]

Thanks for the list! More examples of good game devs:

* Crate (Grim Dawn)
* Re-Logic (Terraria)
* Mojang (Minecraft)

No dream job

[c horde]

I spent over 13 years in Game Development, with Paradigm Entertainment, Ensemble Studios, Microsoft then my own company. Looking back, it was a terrible career decision. It was non-stop death marches, many co-workers had ridiculous egos, by the time you shipped, you hated the game. I should write a book. I would not recommend anyone game development as a career to anyone. The budgets required for a triple A title can only be financed by corporations, and they expect you to live at work. It is a lifestyle. If you do go into game development, go to work for Microsoft so there is lateral mobility.

Re:Pretty much all lies

[angel'o'sphere]

So that part is a lie. What else are you lying about? Lets see!!
Just because he does not know better, does not make him a liar.
Hint: to lie you need to know the truth and deceive the one you are talking to about that truth.

I wished you americans would be more careful with calling someone a liar. It is a serious insult where I come from, could cost you some teeth or worth.

As a game developer

[Dixie_Flatline]

Okay, put aside things like EA Widows and excessive overtime and layoffs. Take those things off the table entirely and ask the question: is game development a dream job?

Answer (unsurprisingly): no. It's a job. It's a job with slightly different parameters than normal programming, but I've been doing this for over 15 years, and I use the same tools most other programmers do (emacs, Visual Studio, a PC) and I work on teams with other programmers, I have to live with the decisions of managers that I disagree with, etc. Particularly as a developer of AAA games, it's not much different than when I worked at an oil company. A lot of the development is not very interesting. It's just code, man. Occasionally you get to scratch a creative itch, but most of the time it's just the same programming that you do anywhere else. (Except, usually, the pay is worse.)

There are some things that are better about the games industry than other industries. You might actually have fans of your work, people will find out about a game you made and express some joy they had in playing it. People are always interested in your job, and you get to mingle with artists and animators and writers.

But don't come to this industry expecting like it's not work just because the end product is entertainment. Think about what it really means to have a 'dream job'. You probably won't change the world here, or get rich, or become influential. If you're lucky, you'll work on a decent project with decent people, get paid passably well and make something that other people find entertaining or useful. Just like any other job.

Re:Indies

[Dunbal]

Very much this.

The Money Flows Up

[Stolovaya]

Well sure. I mean, you have to make sure that executives are being appropriately compensated. Look how much someone like Patrick Soderlund gets:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-gave-outgoing-exec-patrick-soderlund-a-20-milli/1100-6461170/

Soderlund's employment agreement also netted him $46.2 million in stock-based awards for the fiscal year.

I know not every company is EA, but Jesus. I felt he was pretty horrible for the company, so knowing he got this much...well, it's EA as usual.

It never was a dream job

[tlhIngan]

The problem is, and every large game company exploits this, is the fact that people play video games. People like video games. And eventually, a good chunk of those players get the idea that they want to do the next step and make video games.

The lucky ones stay independent - they get a book, do a few exercises, then realize they need a regular Day Job(tm) and do the games thing on the side.

The unlucky ones start applying for "dream video game" jobs at the companies whose games they play. And those companies know the people coming in are endless (endless supply). This results in low pay, over exploitation (I've seen rules where it was mandatory 60 hour workweeks, Monday through Saturday).

And health benefits? Well, perhaps you can be the poor guy who had TWO heart attacks before 30.

And quotas, always the quotas.

Once you've had enough and quit, or expire, well, you're out, and there will be a new guy occupying your seat while it's still warm.

The result is really, one should take a job doing "boring" development, do your 40 hours a week banging out accounting code or whatever, then work on video games on the side. The pay will be higher, the benefits better (although just doing 40 hours a week instead of 60, Mon-Fri instead of Mon-Sat, and no 120+hr crunch months will definitely be a huge benefit in and of itself), just it's not as flashy. But hey, it leaves time to have a hobby, or a life.

Re:Get a better job

[Anonymous Coward]

Being in your right mind is a severe handicap when it comes to being employed in the US these days. Being an uncaring psychopath is far more lucrative. If you're not one, acting like one will usually do just as well.

SK vs KXIP dream

[pankajgrow055]

I have found the site very informative! I only recently came upon it, and wish I’d seen it sooner. It does a great job of pulling different topics/disciplines/perspectives — something unique and valuable here. Thanks — hope you keep it up! regards CSK vs KXIP dream 11

Re:Need an UNION BAD!!!

[Joe_Dragon]

An UNION will stop the unpaid CRUSH time of 80+ hour weeks.

Re:Things that are cool mean exploitation.

[omnichad]

You said no, but then linked to where Wikipedia says yes. San Fernando Valley is part of the LA metro area.

Blizzard did not lay off any developers

[Bryansix]

Blizzard laid off mostly IT and reporting staff and other administrative staff and people supporting marketing and HR. No developers lost their job. https://www.tweaktown.com/news...

Re: Get a better job

[Cederic]

If you can already program and just want to learn a new language, find something you want to write (or help write) and just start. You'll learn fast.

First you'll realise you don't know how to craft a basic runnable program. A quick hunt online and you'll get the structure and you're up and running.

Then you wont know how to compile/run it. Another 'net search.

Then you wont know the syntax to add new features. Another quick search.

Then you wont know which libraries come with the language that provide a wealth of functionality that you can reuse. But you'll be searching for 'how do I open a network port' and finding lots of answers telling you which libraries to use, and when, so you'll be fine.

Then you'll get bored of all this shit and want to know how to automate it all, at which point you can become a software engineer.

The quickest way to ruin the joy of any hobby

[CptLoRes]

is making it into a fulltime job.

too much money involved

[sad_]

there is too much money involved in AAA games today to not manage the whole production to death.
you can still enjoy making games, and even have a successful game, but then you should go the indie route.
ofcourse, the chance that it will be able to provide you with a steady monthly income is very small.