Slashdot Mirror
Redhat to support KDE developement
belbo writes "According to
a notice on KDE's news page Redhat is now funding two
KDE developers in their efforts to port KDE to the upcoming
open-sourced QT 2.0." Indeed KDE 1.1 is apparently in
Red Hat 5.9. Furthermore, Moritz Moeller - Herrmann
tells us that our ubiquitous friend Kalle Dalheimer announced
to the KDE-dev list that
" KDE was awarded "Innovation of the Year 1998/99" in the category software at a Ziff-Davis event in relation to the CeBIT fair. The other finalists
were Lotus eSuite and Microtest Visual CD. This award is a great achievement of the whole KDE team! Congratulations to all of you! We will provide scanned pictures of the award
and other items we got (like posters and stickers) as soon as possible on the KDE web site."
Finally, Linux Today has a
brand new look and is sporting interviews with people of the
Linux community. In one of them, Corel CEO Micheal Cowpland
reveals that
Corel's open-source GUI will be based on KDE. Please folks,
don't let this good news bring on a flame-war. Many people want
to choose which desktop suits them best: GNOME, GNUStep, KDE
are all worthy contenders.
Hopefully not everyone is jumping off the free
software bridge into the half-ass free waters.
It sucks to maintain the whole damn setup myself.
X and glibc upgrades will massivly suck without
a nice distribution to handle it for me. Oh well.
I certainly won't be buying Red Hat again.
No amount of awards, no amount of wishful thinking, no amount of trashing the alternatives, will make the QPL license compatible with the GPL.
QPL qualify as Open Source(TM)? Yes. Compatible with GPL? No.
Redhat: I have voraciously defended you against your critics for so long. I have been scorned and maligned for using your distribution and defending it.
Now I'm glad that my Debian cd's are in the mail.
Sorry, that isn't free (speach) software.
It is just like free beer.
I have yet to order the Debian CDs, but I will.
I hear it is an OK distribution. Well, at least
it isn't contaminated.
I've used both K and GNOME, but to be honest, I can't figure out what the hell they do. The most I can see them doing is putting a bar on the side of my desktop. It's kinda nice, but why all the hubbub?
This is what I am looking for. Version 2.0 will be what everyone wanted 2.0 to be and then by version 3.0 the two will merge into somthing way better than ever thought. What better way do do it than to have full time developers in the same room working on simalar projects? I can't think of a better solution. Or even the apps will be able to go from one to the other with no problems. Comunication it the key. Now that we have that we are going to get some major work done.
No one's forcing you to use KDE or program exclusively using the QT widget set.
Never worry.
uselinux@email.com
Let's modify Qt to be incompatible with what
Troll Tech is shipping, and hack KDE to depend
on the changes.
I'm serious. They asked for it.
The X Windows System and most of your networking daemons (and clients) are under a license that is not compatible with the GPL. I think you should wait a few more years before you start using Linux...
The OSD/DSFG is a poor attempt at defining
free software. It is full of holes that can be
used for abuse. Wasn't it Ian Jackson that
wanted to close this particular loophole?
It should have been closed long ago.
(so, you being paid by the Trolls?)
I don't see why I should suffer from restrictions
on how I distribute code. This is absurd.
One cannot have an independant project when one
is tied to some 'original' source code.
who says u have to buiy it, copy the danm cd of a friend if u have one
Not for commercial software, im not paying $1200 thank you
They asked for it how?
By not providing their work under the licence you wanted? Or by responding positively to community requests to do so?
And the work you've provided is what?
GPL code does not call any BSD code that doesn't
obviously fall under the OS exception.
The new BSD license and X license are fully
GPL compatible. In fact, a combined work will
simply fall under the GPL.
Red Hat has turned out to be the quirkiest Linux I've ever tried. I'm not sure I'll get Red Hat again, but I'm nonetheless glad to see they're not going to take sides. Neither Gnome nor KDE is perfect, but KDE was still "firstest with the mostest."
They have been propping up Gnome as well. This is good because with RH's backing Gnome will have a fighting chance to overtake KDE, --underdog or no.
THANK YOU Bruce.
All of you KDE haters, please go to msn.com and spout off there or something.
We've finally got a desktop that most halfway computer-literate folks can really USE, instead of Winblows. That is a Good Thing!
Heh. And thanks to VMWare, I can run any Winblows OS in a nice little window on my KDE desktop, and shut it down when it misbehaves. This relegates windows to being the toy OS that we've always known it is.
Things are looking up.
The licenses AFAIK _are_ compatible. It's just the ad clause in the earlier BSD license that is not.
I want to work together on an equal basis with
my fellow hackers. I can't do that very well if
some of them decide to leave free software in
favor of a half-assed 'free' toolkit.
I can write lots of good code, but it takes many
more people to run a good project. I'm not that
great with the RPM and DEB tools for example.
What good is my code if I can't package it?
I need to be part of a team. I can't do that if
all the potential team members go off and use Qt.
Strangely enough, GNOME, while maintaining "windowmanager independence," has defined "optional hints" that are intended to enhance apps running under "GNOME-aware" windowmanagers.
;^) I could be wrong, tho...
AFAIK, the only thing that *requires* a KDE-aware windowmanager is kpanel. Not a problem if you use Windowmaker, Blackbox or, for that matter, kwm
I've had no trouble running any apps from KDE
under Window Maker, aside from how ugly
everything else looks compared to the NeXTSTEP
GUI.
Go GNUstep!
Hi,
Two desktop env. is good, but what we need is a way to use objects from either one. If they could just unify with object interfaces or atleast have some sort of bridge between the two OM.
I was just getting ready to switch to Red Hat again; didn't have time to administer and cuztomize my Debian system, and I thought it'd be nice to have a nicely preconfigured system like Red Hat. They seemed to have a very forward looking, free software stance.
Qt is open source, but it's not free software by my definition. Patchwork licenses don't realistically let me incorporate code from those programs into my own (I "stole" driver code from the Linux kernel into a small embedded system I was working on; I can't do that with the Qt license), don't allow large-scale projects (downloading an entire CVS tree and other similar things is impossible), it's impossible to copy a single file and make another one based on it, but part of the same project, (I.E. modify the Qt scroll-list class into a tree, and incorporate tree.cpp back into the code). Patch doesn't deal with that well, etc.
More importantly, it's incompatible with the GPL and other licenses. It is also very C++ centric. It's not feasible as a long term foundation for a free OS GUI.
Guess they needed to do this for business reasons (SuSE and other proprietary distribs were making headway). Can't really blame them, but I'm sticking with Debian for now.
- pmitros
Like others have mentioned, what is the point of either? I tried KDE, it looked too much like MS for me to be comfortable with it. What can I do with GNOME except get a bar at the bottom? I use WindowMaker, but spend almost all my time at the command line or running vim. None of this is hard to learn. And I come from a very non-computer Mac background. What is the point of all the stuff. I don't really care if you use KDE and GNOME with fvmw or whatever, but the whole point for me was the speed. That and RPM's seem too much like a MS install in that I don't know what's happening. I like to tar xzvf and then take the time to README, etc. Please somebody tell me why the hell I would want KDE or GNOME. Do they let you run Quicken? Online banking is all I use my Mac partitions for anymore.
Billy-Bob
not at work so just another AC.
"Drop Linux and GNU/Linux
Call it ANother Unix System." -me
I hope the code for your embedded system is GPL, because if not, you are violating its license, and its spirit.
Personally I think QT is great. I think the license is fine and if you don't, why not put your brain where your mouth is and help with the Harmony project ( which aims to implement a GPL QT clone ) - that would help, ranting does not.
I've never really been much of a KDE fan, but recently I convinced people at work to use linux in the lab instead of dos. I set up the machines with Mandrake 5.3 and KDE has helped get people to accept it from a windows viewpoint. I actually was showing off the abilities of KDE and the benifits of X on a network in front of a gawking crowd the other day. One thing in particular I found nice was how KDE handles the removable media. You'll have a hard time telling non-Unix users that you have to mount CDs and floppies before you use them, but KDE mounts them when you click the desktop icon and opens a kfm window. Pretty slick, I think.
I could, however, do without the relatively high overhead KDE adds (fvwm with a good config file can be fast and nice), but it does offer a lot in terms of graphical useability. I haven't used GNOME yet, but I hope it has as much to offer.
btw. I'm curious about WindowMaker, but after a half-assed attempt at getting it to work, it didn't. Maybe I'll give the other half a try someday.
Well, what you decide is fine with me. You should
use whatever you prefer.
But, how do we covert users (e.g., my mother)
that have never used DOS and probably never
opened a DOS window in MS-XX? I don't think a
WM alone is the solution to this.
It must be possible to use a system without an
xterm.
It sounds like your mother's choice was a Windows box or a Mac, but you badgered her into using Linux. Of course, she's going to be reluctant to complain too much, since she's having a computer set up for her. Pushing OSes on people is not a Good Thing--every little frustration gets magnified, because there's an undercurrent of resentment over not being able to use what they really wanted to use.
For good examples of this, check out posts of Mac users who are forced to use Windows, or vice versa. You get all these petty little nitpicks because the other OS doesn't work exactly like their favorite--you can practically feel their bitterness seeping through your monitor. I've foolishly tried to do in the past what you're trying to do--impose what I think my mother should be doing with her computer on what she actually wants to do. "Here, look Ma, all you have to do is create multiple columns or put your text in a table--it's so much more elegant and 'correct' than using the space bar as a text layout tool." Then the slightest little unexpected behavior occurs and suddenly she looks like she's wanting to beat my head in with the keyboard. You'll learn. ;-)
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
If he's not distributing the embedded system, there's no need for a software license.
If he distributes the embedded system with GPLed code modified for his needs, he needs to make the changes freely available. He doesn't have a choice in the matter.
After the way RedHat treated KDE, if I were on of its developers I wouldn't have taken thier money. Probably would have told them exactly were they could put it to.
This sucks, ive been running Redhat for 2.5 years now - but this sucks ...
.period.
Gnome will be the default desktop of choice for Unix/Linux in the future.
No matter what you think of Gnome and KDE you cant take away the fact that Troll Tech owns the QT library and that GTK+ is FREE and always will be.
Gahh this is annonying...
I have a couple of feelings about KDE guys... basically they think they are the first come in the world.
If a project needs every single working stupid utility to be rewritten changing its name adding a 'k' in the front... well UNIX wouldn't be so nice.
I have KDE on my RedHat system (but my roommate is using it) and thus I have two help navigation systems (why not converge with GNOME's engine, which does info search?) and two of each screensaver hack, just to mention a couple.
Why not redesign just the frontend and provide everyone with usable libraries?
Im with you !
.period. thats it. Even if they do release this version under QPL they could any time change the license and then the KDE team will be stuck with the old (to witch they could not submit patches) QT library.
QT is not by my definition "FREE" either, Troll Tech owns the library
Dammit, and Gnome is so far much nicer and technical superior. Sure they are 1.5 year behind - but hey thery catcing up...
This is what pisses me off about some of the people posting here on slashdot. Your post was just plain stupid. Why should you be able to make money and not them. It seems you are being abit hypocritical. Troll Tech was nice enough to change there license for our benefit. However they did not write the qt widget set for you to make money for free. I have heard people say this on slashdot for a while. Think "free speech, not free beer". Troll Tech has given everyone the freedom to create and modifiy the software. That does NOT mean "FREE" as is the monetary sence. If you want to give the software out for free then go ahead. If you want to sell the software then you have to compensate troll tech for all the hard work they put into the qt widget set. You have absolutely no bases for a complaint here. It seems you are looking for a handout, that is not what opensource/free software is about. It is about freedom as in what you can potentialy do with it, not getting something for nothing.
Chuck Shaw
chucks@tamu.edu
What kind of modem do you have? Is it some sort of proprietary modem? If you have so many problems with it and want something that works why not go get a $25 non plug-and-pray modem?
You should go to :
http://www.kde.org/news_dyn.html
and check out the news item called : "Gnome-1.0 released", published March 4.
It seems that the kde people share your concern about interoperability. And with the main funder of Gnome now also involved in Kde, the day when the two desktop environments fully interoperate may not be close. Very good news indeed for the end-user.
Would you have expected other wise? :)
The only people I heard trashing RedHat were the KDE users, now what can they say?
Just because RedHat ships with KDE doesn't mean you are forced to use KDE. RedHat also comes with the gopher server, but I don't know anyone that uses it. (Yes, yes I know people DO use it, but not as many as don't) I'd imagine KDE will be another little check-box in the RedHat package selection process.
People have much less freedom than they believe they do. Linux is about "free" more than it is about "freedom." Everyone wants Linux to be their image of what it should be. Just like everything else in the world, some people will have more influence in the shaping than others.
I'm a windows user and now a Linux user, when I first stepped in linux I felt helpless and less productive, X windows didn't help much, gnome has helped relieve this (plus some), with the combonation of its themes and its applications I can get the basics done, if only themes could be pushed to a level that would make gnome and applications made for gnome work like other OSs, or the best of other OSs, so that people could gradually step over, gnome has put its foot in the right direction as far as getting users to move over but I don't know if they will take it beyond just looks and extend themes to include other elements from other OSs, to make users of those other OSs feel even more comfortable.
Until now, all critical libs for linux were LGPL (or BSD?).
QT creates an anomaly and complicates the message. Linux is no longer totally free, even in the beer sense, because somebody somewhere was forced to pay, however indirectly, for a license. They will be forced by the hordes of new and somewhat clueless users who will flood in and demand that all their applications look the same, not understanding the implications.
Until now, Linux did not discriminate against the developers of proprietary apps, no matter how large or small. I believe in the purity of the (L)GPL because they do not discriminate in any way, and result in a situation where noone is _forced_ to pay, however remotely or indirectly.
I don't begrudge the revenue stream flooding toward Red Hat, because it is all voluntary. I do begrudge the flow toward Troll, because it will be forced by circumstance.
Gahh this is annonying...
I don't think so. It might be annoying for you since you can't start stupid/unfounded flamewars against KDE when your distro ships with it! So there! Now go bash Micro$oft like a nice little troll. At least you'll be doing something useful.
KDE was here first..
Hmm, sounds like a awful lot of trouble just emerging out of those rpms...Just to get E running.
./configure make make isntall and it's running...
Try debian, do a basic install of the "base", then install the listed libraries(those on www.rasterman.com), deselect will take care of all deps.
Get E, ESD, FNLIB source(maybe some more stuff)
unpackit do
It's really easy, and quite fun actually, and you'll feel proud when you've accomplished it(and have learnt some thing's).
Good luck
The issue was, I believe, not about whether QT was free or not, it was that the contributing author is no longer in control of his code, or something like that.
I'm not trying to keep up with it since I think this entire KDE versus gnome, is trash started by a bunch of sports fans who want to see a bunch of fighting programmers.
Since the current Netscape is written with Motif, both KDE and GNOME are loosing, according to you. But that's not. What's stopping me from running Mozilla 5.0 while the KDE tools are up? Nothing.
I think you should just think rationally and not just "QT on one side and GTK+ on the other". When drag & drop starts working between Qt and gtk+ you'll see that both DE's will survive and eventually merge. That is a good thing.
ftp://linux.engr.uark.edu/pub/ usually creates ISO images for the latest Redhat releases.
Anyone know of any place to get ISO images of Redhat 5.9?
Hmm...I too have a Diamond SupraExpress.
Specifically a SupraExpress 336i. I've got
mine working, though (took 2 extraordinarily
frustrating days before I learned how).
Drop me a line at jraven@psu.edu if you
want some help in getting it going.
Raven
You didn't answer his question. Why KDE or GNOME? What does
console vs X have to do with anything? He never even mentioned
console apps. He said that he uses a command line, vim, and
WindowMaker, so what benefit would he get from running KDE or
GNOME? I haven't really tried either so I'm curious myself.
Is it mainly just more consistency and uniform behavior of
programs (from a user perspective not a developer's view)?
How about this...
GNU Object Network Desktop Environment
GONDE
:)
I wonder why more people don't use autofs? It is (I think) a kernel module that comes with RedHat 5.2, and a daemon. What it does is it allows you to access, for example, /auto/zip and it automagically mounts it when you first access that dir, and unmounts it after a set timeout period. I use it for my zip drive with a timeout of 5 seconds, and it works excellent! I never have to worry about mounting zip disks.
Stop using Netscape!!!
And stop booting with that proprietary BIOS!!!
I would like to thank Redhat for their mature approach to the KDE/Gnome battle. I see it as an attempt to unify the linux community, which is long overdue.
The linux community lately reminds me of some of my neighbors, nice enough people, but the only time I ever see them, they're fighting.
John Waalkes
jwaalkes@edge.net
There is such a beast. Check out WDM. I believe there's a link to it from the WindowMaker page. It's a drop-in replacement for xdm, but it has nice features like an animated (3-d looking) login box, with a drop-down menu for choosing your window manager/desktop environment .. I have it set up to let me choose windowmaker, GNOME, KDE, IceWm, or a failsafe plain-ol' xterm session. It's great.
He doesn't like the half ass free license, just accept it and move on, damn are you that dense.
You hear people say that gnome has altered the open source software ways by simply calling its release 1.0, and then these same people accept half ass free license, go figure.
People in general that aren't religious about their OS generally is only interested in getting the job done. If Linux suits them better and they don't have to fiddle with configuring the box they will use it.
And users who refuse to take good advice (such as your mother) are the doom of new software. They also will be less productive/creative than people who adapt new ways of using software.
The flaw in what your saying is that you assume that someone would actually pay for something if it was not totally diffrent, or the contributing author(s) did not make major changes, in which case just a regular GNU would have been nicer.
Don't tell me you would actually pay for something that you could get for free, just because it was just a simple change? I doubt you would. So if you would not pay for minor changes, what makes you think that some one would want to sell it to you? Contributors will be less wanting to contribute, and you will find your self with a boat load of qt users who don't care to contribute.
Think about it more, look it the direction Linux is going, and you'll figure it out.
Well, with Troll tech owning QT they will be the next Microsoft ... you see they will conrol the desktop even if QT is free for free devel. Microsfot ships a lot of their products for free to but the own the win32 api and they are requirng licens money for comercial developers to use it. So the difference between Troll Tech and Microsoft arent that big ... with GTK+ on the other hand EVERYONE can submit patches, help develop buildcomercial apps whitout needing to go throw a company that any day now could change the license of theri toolkit. And then the KDE team are stuck with a free version of QT that they cant change. With GTK+ this will not happen.
Besides that, the Gnome project have done some real good design choices that the KDE team havent. KDE for example is C++ (with a few bindings for other languages) build on MICO (wich they self says wasnt that good in the first place). I was on a KDE demo by Kalle Dalhemier a couple of weeks ago - that really convinced me that Gnome or Gnustep is the right way to go. KDE was a copy of windows.
My Gnome desktop is stable, easy, fun and there are coming these really COOL GTK+/Gnome apps if you take a look at the gnome softwaremap. So the KDE team seems to be focused on port exsiting Unix apps and put a K in the beginng while the Gnome team tries to do things better and really comes with new ideas.
So, just like Linux, Gnome will win on their technical merits.
Myrridin
I wish developers wouldn't write apps that depend on a specific desktop environment. I don't want to run either KDE or Gnome. They're both so bloated I begin to miss NT. I don't mind having qt and gtk+ around, but don't make me install 15 useless packages just to get to gnomelibs just to try out some app.
Long live AfterStep!
I agree, this is sad.
Myrridin
Well it depends on how you look at it. Having frequently used functions in a library helps to reduce BLOAT. You don't want every application programmer creating their own file requester or font selector do you? That would main tremendous bloat and even more inconsistencies!
For those who haven't thought about it... What happens if you only want to charge people for the work you spent on it and not charge for the entire package (in that sense qt is still free)?
No one would be dumb enough to sell something for a high price that has been minorly altered, when people can get it for free (it is still free right)!!!!!
The whole argument is stupid, kde and gnome, battling it out? just give me a damn GUI that works and is easy to use, i dont give a shit which one it is, they both look great and run well. The fact that Red hat has adopted kde is great, why shouldnt a distro use all managers available? from the release list i can see they have gnome kde windowmaker enlightenment afterstep, and a few others.
give it a rest theyll all work with redaht, and you can pick and choose which one you want because its included on the cd.
Strange.... ... catching up ?!?! Where do you live ? On planet mars ?
Don't forget that Gnome development started about half a year after KDE's ! Now, you say that Gnome is 1.5 year behind and
There seems to be to many complainers and not enough do'ers, to continue with what you were saying.... If you think gnome or its applications are buggy, then do something about it, don't cry about it, crying about it does not solve a thing, just makes you look like a complete jerk, free loader. That's why its Open and Free damn it!!!!!!
Cool, out of all the dribble about KDE vs Gnome of this board, I managed to learn something new. :)
Speaking of KDE based dist's ...
EasyLinux0.95b-beta2 is available for dl.
Need more mirror sites, though...
Here's the one they show:
ftp://ftp.iac.com.mx/pub/easyLinux/
They compress the iso image, which is nice of them.
I'm a potato. I've got eyes all around!
The X and BSD licenses are _not_ compatible with the GPL. The OS exception was made as an intermediate solution to have some system on which to run GNU software. But a (ideologically) pure GNU system should not have any X11 or BSD software. BSD and X11 are just as evil as KDE and qt. The goal of all true Linux users is to have a world where _all_ software is under the GPL.
..all of the features that you mentioned that you like in KDE are in WM as well. Plus, WM has a few WONDERFUL features that I haven't seen anywhere else (like ALT + drag to move/resize).
KDE does that, too (ALT+drag == move, ALT+drag (with right mousebutton) == resize). Any other features, WM has, that kwm/KDE don't?
-gis
(I.E. modify the Qt scroll-list class into a tree, and incorporate tree.cpp back into the code). Patch doesn't deal with that well, etc.
But you don't ever _need_ to do this! Qt is designed in such a way, that you can easily subclass the desired widget/baseclass and implement it in that way, you want it to be. That's one of the great things about Qt, it is very extensible. (Almost?) all KDE classes from kdelibs extend Qt's classes by inheriting/combining them.
So there is little need to modify Qt. Patches would only be necessary if you'd discover a big bug in Qt, you can't work around and need to get fixed before the next official Qt Release.
-gis
I had the KDM setup for a while to do something like this, and it was very nice. If that came with redhat by default, it would make beginners able to use the system right off, as easily as win95.
Try SuSE, it comes with KDM as default display manager.
Netscape will be (almost is) obsolete by kfm (konqueror) anyway, so where's the point?
At least Netscape is much much more better than Troll.
And btw, i was talking about software, the spirit of sharing, the community.
hardware, maybe not now. But in future ?
"just give me a damn GUI that works and is easy to use, i dont give a shit which one it is, they both look great and run well."
...
is same as
"hey just give the damn me papers to use, i don't care about the trees being cutting down"
Is this kind of attitude why the earth and mankind are doom in the future.
AFAIK the BIOS is not a piece of hardware, although it lives on a Flash ROM :)
Troll only asks money if you produce commercial software with QT. Since you're goal is "the spirit of sharing and the community" I don't see it going against it. You can't share commercial software with the community. Am I wrong?
This is just an irrelevant rant so you might want skip it, but I have just had enough of KDE apologists and need to let some stream off...
a) I don't. Thats why I can get all the greatest warez from a friendly pirate only at the price of cd... licenses are just politics and politics sucks (everyone knows that) so I can ignore licenses (this is how typical KDE zealot thinks).
b) I don't give a fuck if Troll Tech employees starve, there are far better causes to contribute your hard earned cash, make a contribution to Red Cross if you are worried about starving kids. Norway has very good social security so I doubt they would need your money even it they had zero income.
c) If I have to give money to someone to develop proprietary software I'd rather give it to MS, at least it gives me far greater market share.
The apps were there first. Then KDE rewrote them, now there are more apps that do basically the same thing but the KDE ones only work in KDE mode..
The orignal poster was refering to that... If you notice, several of the Gnome apps are just frontends to the normal apps (i.e. Xscreensaver) so you can enhance both the Gnome version and the normal version by just enhancing one.
The reason the KDE people did this, is because a) using QT effectivly requires you program in C++, and b) they dont understand sharing. Look how they violate the GPL (QT is not and never will be GPL compatible, but they take other people's GPLed code and link it to QT).
Free beer. Pure and simple. You're not interested in free speech, what you want is gratis software that much is obvious.
As time goes on, I have becoming more and more distressed at my current distribution, Debian. I think this is a sign that I should change to Red Hat 6.0 once it's out. Of course, I can't wait to see Corel's version either.
You already had a choice. Redhat choosing not
to put kde on a cd was their choice. You had
the choice of getting kde if you wanted it.
What don't you understand about this situation? Applications written using the QT widget set are being released under the GPL, which is NOT permitted under the license. This is a bad situation.
Other KDE applications are being based on GPL'd code.
THIS IS NOT LEGAL.
"gnome has put its foot in the right direction"
was this suppose to be a pun?
I like it
he he he he
Gui's create and attract brain-damaged people.
Learn to use the console. Someone who can't
use the console in Linux is gonna be about
as effective as styrofoam at an acetone
party.
As a long time redhat *BUYER*, am happy that they have bowed to the obvious pressure by granting their customer the right to choose something other than GNOME. Actually they were being left behind in the dust as just about every other distribution includes KDE.
Ok, now I am now reconsidering my decision as to my distribution. I was deciding between Mandrake and SuSE with Caldera in there too. I am not afraid to hand over the green ones but not to posturing twits, and thats what this whole debate is - posturing. Screw 'em, KDE is fast, stable and here. Its being developed by smart people from around the world who love what they do. They have a clear and coherent plan of attack and are executing it. As a Java and C/C++ Unix developer I love it every time I show KDE to non-Unix folks and see their jaws drop. I don't want to get drawn into flame-wars, but if its good enough for Linus, its good enough for me.
Would it be possible to write a wrapper that would put the QT API over top of GTK, or to provide a QT-like API into the GTK library?
This question isn't motivated by licencing issues, I'd just like to have a single widget toolkit for all my GUI apps.
Incidently, it's be nice to have GTK flavours of all those old Athena apps too.
Anyone working on this?
DG
Yeah maybe, but you stack enough of em together and it attracts hardware manufacturers. That's extremely useful.
Free speech. ;-)
still, the fact that the KDE people used Qt when it wasn't under the QPL shows that they're more the "free beer" type than the IMHO more preferable "free speech" type. GNOME may be buggy (although I have no problems with it), but at least it's "free speech" all the way.
Gonna have to whole-heartedly agree here...
This approach works great and addresses IMHO one
of the worst features of the *NIX environment head-on.
I watch people write disk mounting GUIs and tools galore and wonder "Why?"
We live in a time when such things can and should be handled automatically by machine. Maybe a FAQ should be written...
The ONLY issue I have is when a program (Say an MPG player) tries to sequentially access a whole bunch of files on an automountable disk which isn't in the drive...
then its serious kernel thrash time. Anybody got a fix for that ?
Well if the look of KDE bruises your delicate anti-MS sensibilities, why not try KDE 1.1 with the MacOS theme and the Mac-like menubar option enabled? I am using it now for kicks, although I appreciate the greater speed of WindowMaker and use that for my Gimp-using persona.
GTK's biggest problem is that the default laf is an uneven unpolished poor-man's motif laf. I don't want to be unduly harsh, because GTK comes with at least one very good laf although it is not the default.
KDE's look is mostly constrained by Qt. Qt currently has 2 styles Motif and Windows and it does these 2 styles very well. (compare to GTK's Redmond95 style which isn't very good at all). You can make it look less like windows if you wish, see the KDE screenshots page at http://www.kde.org/kscreenshots.html if you don't believe me. Also, the new Qt 2.0 will be much more flexible and will allow you to develop/plugin any style you wish.
>Redhat is a company out to make money
Yes and it is possible to do this using the GPL as they and others have so wonderfully demonstrated.
>Why does everythin have to be in line wit the
>GPL?
Because it is the only licensing scheme that guarantees freedom. If you don't understand this point then I suggest that it is worth your time considering this and not just dismissing the whole issue.
Or this:
GNU Object Network Application Desktop
GONAD
Bitmap themes are not the way to go, IMHO, unless you are one of those E freaks.
If you are person who wants to do some serious work, I really don't think you want to bother with pixmaps themes and concentrate more on finding a clean simple style which both KDE and GNOME can provide.
I agree. You are definitely more grown up than he is. Your riposte captures exactly what it is that you dislike about the GPL: the "mindset" of straw men like our mutual friend. This subtle, "grown-up", ad hominem argument of yours convinces me that you must be correct. Well done Sir!
anyone advocating it should be short
Oh, they probably are short, at least where it counts. :-)
(a) The code to my embedded system is GPL.
(b) The embedded system code is completely and utterly useless to anyone other than myself and my boss anyways. It's a research project at the AI Lab, and the useful stuff is going on elsewhere.
> Try debian, do a basic install of the "base", then....
snip
> It's really easy, and quite fun actually,
Real easy, huh? All you have to do, according to your instructions is reinstall the entire operating system, and redo all tweaks, customizations, local installs you have done over the past year or so, then apply the packages. Real easy indeed!
Jon_S (not logged in)
Got a fast system with plenty of memory/disk-space? Then go for KDE or Gnome (Gnome needs to mature a bit) if you want all the latest desktop whizbang gadgets.
Got an old 486 (like mine) and you are too cheap to spend 500 bucks on a new system (like me)? Then X with a good window-manager will give the experienced user plenty of basic desktop functionality. No frills -- just a few xterms and a good command-line shell.
Running a server on a shoestring? Dispense with the desktop entirely and conserve all your computing power for serving.
That's the Unix experience. You choose your own environment based upon your own needs.
With Linux 2.2 and POSIX capabilities, there are many possible security enhancements. (like the potential elimination of the possibility of root exploits)
This is something I've been more or less saying for over a year. Unfortunately times are changing. Seems that most of the new crowd these days just wants to push Linux as the only desktop for everyone, and of course to do that, they have to "dumb" it down for the average user. (basically make it be the same as what they are used to.) You know, the funny thing is that people treat it like they would an operating system run by a business. People seem to think if "this isn't done, or that isn't done, it just won't survive." Linux will survive despite how many people use it as long as there are people still contributing to the source code. I'm starting to worry, like you, that soon we will have to have either gnome or kde to make applications work, and thats not good at all. Maybe it's because it's currently the smallest project, and commonly overlooked, but gnustep seems to be the least threatening of the 3 imho right now, and therefor would probably be the best candidate to use as a standard. ah well, enough rambling..
Nite_Hawk
If you have only the one woman, it's not
juggling. You need more than one for 'juggling'.
Unless you are making some nasty pun about 'jugs'.
sr
Well said
proprietary crap. you have to distribute patches? thats what killed minix.
the trolls only let you distribute patches. thats not about sharing, thats about control.
i have paid for the official redhat, and i am not doing that again. just because they dont include kde doesnt mean that you cant install it. kde still has an invalid license until they can get permission from the authors for every piece of code thier borrowed from other GPL software. half-assed free software is not free at all.
btw: I dont give a shit what linus uses, he's just a manager.
Yup, but that's not the Troll's fault, that is the fault of the KDE developers. In this matter we should always remember to direct any angst we might have in the right direction.
The Trolls aren't it.
They've written a nice library.
It's just not appropriate for inclusion in a free software project. That's not to say that individual developers shouldn't be free to use this library should they so desire. However, those that make decisions with wider implications should really take more care. Those that don't take such care should be shouted down out of the meritocracy.
I still think that if Redhat is going to throw money at this that they should create a completely liberated alternative to the qt+kde combo.
Technically, you don't ever need to modify Win95 code. You can load in drivers, make other hacks, etc. Not needing to modify code doesn't make it free software.
I liked KDE, used it for nearly 2 years starting with the Beta. It
was very stable, but I eventually got bored. Still, I've become
really addicted to the browser built into KDE, as it's MUCH
faster than Netscape.
Now I've also switched to WindowMaker (just cannot go back
to editing dof files for configuration), but I'm still running KFM
and still have the KDE apps. I have a nice, little shell script
that puts my KFM bookmarks and the KDE apps. into the
WindowMaker popup menu, giving me the best of both
worlds.
Use a spell checker and stop trotting out the same tired, refuted excuses. What distribution are you going to use, eh? Debian? Because thats the only one thats won't be distributing KDE (AFAIK) - Talk about limiting your choices! And as far as RH distributing non-free software, I didn't hear you complaining too loudly about BRU, MetroX, etc.
/.'rs who are part-time lawyers, full-time bullshitters and no-time coders.
Hello?? Do I smell the stench of hypocrisy and fanaticism here.
Linus is both a manager and a coder and a person who demands respect. He is a pragmatist whose dedication to free software is self-evident. Lets see these "free software developers" who refuse to allow their software linked to Qt. Where are they? No, I think its a load of
The best thing about the 1.1 release, aside from the fact that
it's more polished, is that the built-in browser is quite useable
for Web browsing. There are occasional sites that it has
trouble with, such as the Infoworld forums (because their HTML
isn't proper). But it's way faster than Netscape (and far less
annoying, since it doesn't keep reloading graphics the way
NS does when you hit the "back" button), and I now use it
for 90% of my Web browsing.
GNU Object Network Advanced Desktop??
:)
GONAD
10 Gig disks smashed the $200 barrier a few months ago... I see 12 Gig disks regularly for about $170. Of course, they are IDE.
I've been assiduously nuke CDE off of all of our machines because it is an ugly security-hole-ridden piece of crap. Is KDE any better? Why not just fvwm2, why do we need this "Desktop Environment" crapola?
There's no ethical problem with the QPL. It's free software and that is well. As long as the QPL is not GPL compliant it still means that anyone wanting to use GPL code with Qt must obtain permission to use from any copyright holders to that code.
The X license has always been compatible, and the BSD license is compatible in it's current form (ie; sans advertisement clause). As long as you (simplified) can make a tar out of code under both licenses and distribute it without any additional restrictions above the GPL, it's compatible.
The 'OS exception' refers to essential system components like kernel, libc, etc.
Remember when opendoc was suppior by anything microsoft could ever write. Microsoft threatened to add a single line of code in windows to make it useless and all the software engineers ran from opendoc liek the plague. Since opendoc is dead, I am sure that if we email apple long enough, we can get them release opendoc and they will look like the good guys to linux users. If opendoc is dead, it wont hurt them. THey can't make any money off it right? Unix needs something to handle objects and have apps interact with other apps and the desktop. Opendoc may be the best thing since sliced bread for the job. If any apple employees read this, could you please tell upper management about this. It would help gnome/kde alot and if it becomes popular you might even have a resurection on it and use it on the mac os.
At the same time Redhat had written their white paper speaking against KDE/QT, they were also selling the proprietary software CDE and Motif. Sure those things weren't part of their official distribution but then again CDE and Motif came with a copy of their distribution anyway. The only thing different was how they marketed it. And CDE/Motif had a far worse licensing scheme than QT ever did.
So now Redhat gives an application cd along with their official distribution which includes proprietary software. The least they could have done was include KDE/QT on than cdrom. Instead they were bullheaded and hypocritical and didn't do this meanwhile including Netscape, Xv and a whole bunch of other stuff on their install cdrom.
I can't argue with that, Toshiba got the
message when a boycott was suggested over
their IR hardheadedness.
It was there last time I looked.
Gee, maybe this whole Linux thing is a little too
tough for you. Maybe you SHOULD try SuSe or Windows.
So what you are saying is that if there is a free version of a product then no one should try and sell it. Programmers have to make a living and there is nothing wrong with that. If you do not want to buy it then don't. There might be someone out there that wants that small minor change and is willing to pay for it. The cost of the product has nothing to do with whether it is free/opensource software. If you are worried that troll tech is going to make some minor change and throw it out as a new version. who cares? You are under no obligation to switch to the new version.
About the people that don't contribute back, that has nothing to do with the qt license, It is up to them to decide to give back to the community or not. Don't use/buy there software if you don't like how they do things. However there is no reason why they have to conduct themselves by your standards. If you don't like them, then ignore them.
Chuck Shaw
chucks@tamu.edu
CITE
Patchwork licenses don't realistically let me incorporate code from those programs into my own (I "stole" driver code from the Linux kernel into a small embedded system I was working on; I can't do that with the Qt license), don't allow large-scale projects (downloading an entire CVS tree and other similar things is impossible), it's impossible to copy a single file and make another one based on it, but part of the same project, (I.E. modify the Qt scroll-list class into a tree, and incorporate tree.cpp back into the code). Patch doesn't deal with that well, etc.
More importantly, it's incompatible with the GPL and other licenses. It is also very C++ centric. It's not feasible as a long term foundation for a free OS GUI.
CITE
The QPL explicitly allows CVS. So much for your first argument.(changes must be distributed seperate, but not only as a patch!)
You can distribute a modified QT in binary form. Just the original code must be distributed.
About being C++ centric: It is a C++ toolkit. Bindings for python, perl and scheme are available in case you hate C++. Is Gtk C centric?
In C++ you can derive from a class in QT. Many KDE classes are just improved QT classes / widgets. What do you need to incorporate the code for? Wouldn't that lead to unnecessary code duplication?
ghostscript is under the APL, Mozilla under MPL. Who cares? You are free to improve them and share.
Open Source(TM) and open minded!
What's really funny about all this is it changes nothing. KDE still won't become the standard interface for linux because most people use RedHat and Redhat won't be defaulting to KDE. So Troll Tech really won't be able to make money by leeching off RedHat or Debian if they they follow Redhat's direction which is I think really is the major concerning KDE. So if you want to use KDE you'll still have to install it from the RedHat cdrom yourself, which is as it should be. Troll Tech won't be able to stick it to RedHat because I rather doubt RedHat will use QT libs for any of it's software
A genuinely free licence should not strive to create 2nd class citizens, even of proprietary application authors.
Windows = Complete operating system
KDE = Window manager/environment
Can you see a difference between the two?
enough said
Windowmaker is lame and dated. THe interaface was cute when NeXT was around but it's very 1988-1990. 1 inch panels, lame
KDE is10x the manager that wm is.
Quite unfounded. When an application says it needs KDE, all it means is it needs the Qt and KDE libraries. You don't need to run kwm (contrary to what a bunch of uninformed MORONS think) to run KDE applications. So KDE applications are just like any other; have the right libraries and they're fine.
You can patch it. QT changed that clause after you all
bitched about it.
> The only people I heard trashing RedHat were the
:-)
> KDE users, now what can they say?
I don't care, but now people can't say, that GNOME
is still in beta, when it core-dumbed.
So it's okay that Microsoft is using anti-competitive practices
to dominate the market, because it's their choice to do so?
OK, KDE is a nice productive and stable GUI, but lets not kid our selves about this half ass free license.
It can't even be described as being free speech or free beer, its somewhere in between, if you add up all the restrictions and problems, and the holes. Its like saying its for free, but you have to pay the shipper(distro), and you have to pay the shipper extra because the shipper must pay the licensers, and the licensers are still charging you for it, and that is how free it is.
Only a fool would want an floppy-type drive to automount anymore these days.Why ? Can you say computer viruses and other such garabge? I knew you could... .
Abolutely not, read it again, I'm saying that if a contributing author(s) spends a lot of programming time on it and wants to make money for his(their) work, while contributing, then he should be able to sell a distribution for a low price, a just price, one that takes into acount the contributing authors time and money, in a sense he is not selling their code and binaries, he is selling his code and giving their code a way for free by not charging the costumer extra, but if he is forced to charge the customer extra then it is not free, they become the ones living off of contributors work.
Do you understand this or should I explain it diffrently, don't take this the wrong way, this is not KDE versus gnome crap, this is about a semi-free license, it is no GNU.
Kfm? Bleh. Wait untill the linux port of
Arachne arrives. The MSDOS 1.49 beta version runs in 640k
of RAM, and the linux version is supposed use svgalib
so you can run it without using X.
Arachne is incredible. It really puts all the
Windows WWW browsers to shame when you realize
it does what it does in DOS.
I post for each gonad? :)
if he is willing to accept non-GPL license agreements does that mean he is willing to accept MSEUL? I doubt it, but you worded it wrong.
Also it is semi-free, its a lie to say its fully free, depending on how you get it, you can end up paying the authors for this free software.
This news is wonderful - when the crap distributions like Redhat and SuSE all get sued by the KDE authors, who are a front for Microsoft, for illegally distributing their software (KDE is in violation of the GPL therefore distributors of it are infringing on the copyrights the authors hold) the only Linux distribution left will be the far superior Debian, and life will be much better for all real Linux users (as opposed to Microsoft Rebel wannabes)
Yeah I was really forced to pay 6 bucks for a RedHat 5.2 (CD only) big deal, it saved me from downloading with my slow ass modem. And RedHat donates money to other free software, and even semi-free software that uses QPL.
So you don't care and even will agree with me if I were to say KDE and Linux both suck shit for a desktop environment and the amount of usefull software, when compared to windows? Or is it your turn to become touchy, touchy, touchy, and start showing us your "irrational beliefs"?
DAMN you fucking KDE vs GNOME people are fucking lame (that means weak). You have no control over your attitude, it always has to be something, and it always has to be replied to, hey if there is some fucking conspiracy its people like you who are making it happen, intentianally or unintentially.
Come on, world of adult people doesn't work like this.
Sure it does, RedHat used KDE until they had thier own system, then they complained about licence issues and said they couldn't distribute KDE. Why would I then let them later just decide they will support me (if I were the developer in question) now that things were going more my way. I frankly woulnd't allow a company to do that to me, would make me feel bought. I would allow them to distribute the software, but I wouldn't take penny one of their support.
I don't think KDE people are in any way offended by RH's previous refusals to support them.
Well, I would have been quite offended. I release something for free, which this company uses until they don't need it,...then they start saying bad shit about my product, starting to turn other people away from it for no good reason, then later turn coat again and now they want to support me...well fuck them in a heartbeat. I wouldn't allow them to use me that way.
The fact that Corel is basing thier stuff on KDE _clearly_ shows what a lot of people have been saying all along: Qt/KDE is pretty much already dead and GTK/GNOME is the future! Erm...wait a minute; that doesn't exactly figure out... *cough* Um, nevermind.
An idiot you may not be, but you're acting like one.
Or maybe I have a higher opinion of my self worth. I happen to value the time I spend on my developing (the little I have done thus far) and having someone bitch about me releasing my product for free like RH and Debian did would feel like a knife in my back.
All Red Hat ever had against KDE was the use of the closed
source QT packages. Troll Tech has revised their license. It's free as long as your product is open source, and
otherwise compliant with the goals of the GPL.
The old licence was not much different then the old. Just now your allowed to distribute patches with your Qt redistribution. If you want to get all wacked out about your "free" software so that anything GPL must have everything remotely attached to it also be GPL then it still doesn't comply. Course that is far from my idea of free software but thats me.
Red Hat seems to support any quality product, and a high level of diversity as long as it meets the open source
standard.
Bah, KDE wasn't killed when they spoke out against them and is still a major contender with GNOME (better even) no mater what they do so now they want to attach thier name to it by giving out money.....Like I said before, if it was me I would not let them use me that way. They are just playing the odds.
Course, maybe they realise what they did was not right and they wish to now honestly change thier position. If that were the case I would think about it, but I wouldn't just jump at the idea.
> Gee, maybe this whole Linux thing is a little
... Maybe you SHOULD try SuSE"??? Bwhahaahhaha! You dumbshit ... SuSE is another Linux distribution!!
> too tough for you. Maybe you SHOULD try SuSe or
> Windows
What the fuck? This doesn't make any goddamn sense! "this whole Linux thing is a little too tough for you
Apple are no saints. I for one want to see them go down as much if not more than M$. -Niomosy (from another machine)
I said he is willing to accept non-GPL free licenses. Read my post again.
Thats what I'm talking about. it depends on how you emphasize it, either as "non-GPL free licenses" (GPL, LGPL, etc), or like you just did "non-GPL free licenses. It could have been worded better, but we all make mistakes, accepted or denied.
The fact that a contributor must pay, means they are living off of others work, causing them to raise their price, and that price gets charged to the buyer, so depending on how you get it, its not free. Its psuedo-free as far as "free beer" is concerned, but the open source side of has it has restrictions, so the "free speech" is also broken. Its simply not as free as people make it out to be, its so border line, you have to understand if I say its not free or that its a lie to say its free, based on the facts, then that is my opinion. Beside if KDE is so good, then we should not even care about whether any part of it is free or not, does free mean better? No so lets stop the cherades, and be realistic, its a lame (weak) attempt at being free, so much so calling it free is deceptive to what it actually is.
The word ethics is like the word morals, in that they are not very descriptive and is very subjective. They are based on right and wrong, but what is right and what is wrong is diffrent from person to person, if he thinks GPL is right, then that is based on his ethics, he may have a higher standard then you.
For example we can say Hitler had a moral problem, because the majority of the people on this world today have higher morals then he did, but during world war 2 he had fooled a lot of people in his country into accepting his low morals, so no want thought he was wrong in his conduct(unethical), or evil and bad (immoral).
Hope this clears up the diffrence in opinion.
you'll need ... mmm.. iirc:
glib, gtk+, ORBit, imlib, gnome-libs, gnome-panel.
If that helps convert users, then that is
execellent.
Well I don't bow down, I hope the KDE users can let me go my own way, not harras me about using gnome, and understand I don't support KDE for all of our own good.
Because Slashdot is owned by Rob. He can do whatever he wants with it. Contrary to what a lot of you think, it is NOT your decision as to what goes up on Slashdot. The FSF did NOT write the other people's code, so they shouldn't tell them what license to use (asking shouldn't be a big deal, but basically TELLING is plain WRONG)
hmm, I wonder why the title says "read this if you have forgot...", maybe because its to remind you. No, no, it couldn't be that, of all the rediculous things, the subject never defines the topic.
Not exactly...
It is now just over 15 years since the beginning of the Free
Software Movement and the GNU Project. We have come a
long way.
let me point out the specifics, "over 15 years", that does suggest longer then 15 years but lets continue, "since the beginning of the Free Software Movement and the GNU Project", well they said the free software movement and the GNU project, so they must be just talking about those specifics.
its a mistaken, easily forgiven, so I can forgive you.
Quick, get some tinfoil for your head. That will stop those evil government brain control rays.
So... :)
Autorun, bad.
Automount, cool.
Imagine if a virus managed to get in to a popular windows program's autorun before they turned it silver, that would be a masacre.
The Multi Document Interface is not that bad, it may have bad implementations, but its not that bad, gnotepad+ is implementing it through tabs, and you also have to remember MDI doesn't necesarily mean the documents (data) are the same, it also makes drag and drop a little easier since their is more space to drop on, there are some issue too, with using SDI instead of MDI, drag and drop is one, messy desktops, and their are a few other minor issues (try to keep from havig a thick skull your self, and add some understanding to that brain
Sorry, but that's a weak argument. Netscape 5's AppRunner is a well designed object-oriented system. GUI objects are decoupled from C++ code and referenced via XML and JavaScript.
Porting Netscape 5 to QT would be a 1 week project at most. The QT guys already did it once. KDE/QT are much better architected than GNOME/GTK's shity "we are living in the 1980's" c programming pseudo-object system. The CORBA design in GNOME is pathetic. Where's the thoughtful design? What's the purpose of exporting a CORBA interface for the CD PLAYER mini-applet. lame.
As much as the anti-microsoft C weenies whine about COM, the fact of the matter is, it is a very useful design pattern. The KDE programmer's realized this. The Netscape programmers did too.
The GNOME advocates are still trying to figure out how to be different than "WIMP", instead of asking the end users "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE INTERFACE THAT SHOULD BE CHANGED"
You can be cool and "different", and feel oppressed, and revoluntionary all you want, but your grandma is never gonna use your desktop unless it is actually useful for the end user.
Which GNOME isn't.
Yeah, dream on.
SDIs can get pretty messy on the desktop, although this is mostly a problem under windows, since X has the ability to split up its desktop, but even then if you open a lot of decuments your pager is going to get messy. I'm sorry I had to get sarcastic about it though, but your being like children.
:)
Also MDI doesn't necesarily mean the documents are the same. MDI and SDI have a purpose, but they can be over used and I think in the applications you've used have been over used, you are like the kid who's mom forced you to eat to many vegetables, and you grew up eating junk food because she didn't know how to cook the vegetables right, and think that all vegetables taste the same.
BTW, when it slaps you in the forehead you can tell people how short it is.
KDE is a bloated pig, and by using it you are engaging in criminal activities. Enlightenment is a window manager, not a desktop environment, so you're pretty damn stupid for mentioning it in this context. It's also a bloated pig, and IMO is ugly as sin.
Hope your girlfriend enjoys visiting you in prison - oh hang on, she's a user now too so she'll be joining you there.
From past experience, I'd say "of course not".
I'm sure we can all remember the "Kimp" incident, where the KDE folks should have been put of their misery for good with a good, expensive lawsuit.
Then all the poor criminals currently using KDE, and the suckers doing so-called development (which seems to be "fork the development tree of this perfectly good application and make it suck") could be putting their energies to more useful purposes like GNOME and GNUstep.
The startup option for kfm that limits the color usage
to 96 colors is execelent. Sometimes I use a 8 bit display
computer (well I have to use it in 8 bit), and now
I have no worries about color cell starvation when I use
kfm to browse.
KDE amazed me months ago...
I got gnome 1.0 running and I liked
it a lot. It doesn't seem to have
the keyboard support that kde has.
I should never have to use the mouse if I
don't want to - all apps should have 100%
keyboard support. There should also be many
system wide keyboard short cuts that are common
across all apps. This makes an interface
consistent, powerful, and quick.
Both need better support when remember
app/window state. Especially in gnome when
opening file dialogs. They always seem to open
in the directory gnome was started in and not the
directory I last used.
Both need better support for directory layout.
If I'm browsing directories I'd like to see
them the same way I left them. (eg Mac)
I guess it's good to have choice... I sure
hope API's can merge or at least interoperate
well. And of course a standard desktop
that people can customize... but all apps
start off in the 'common/standard' mode.
Technically, you don't ever need to modify Win95 code. You can load in drivers, make other hacks, etc. Not needing to modify code doesn't make it free software.
You don't need to, but you _can_. But then again, you don't need to.
Besides that, your Win95 analogy really isn't one.
Free beer. Pure and simple. You're not interested in free speech, what you want is gratis software that much is obvious.
Actually, I'm writing both free and gratis software. I don't just _want_, I also _give_.
My Gnome desktop is stable, easy, fun and there are coming these really COOL GTK+/Gnome apps if you take a look at the gnome softwaremap.
Hmm, I've searched all over, but where are those "really cool" gnome apps?
So the KDE team seems to be focused on port exsiting Unix apps and put a K in the beginng while the Gnome team tries to do things better and really comes with new ideas.
Once again, where are the new ideas and then, where are the programs? I haven't found a single original gnome-program, that hasn't existed before. No, Gimp doesn't count.
Then take a look at KDE's applications, you'll see the difference.
I both use and develop for KDE on a P166 with 32 meg. Right now I have 3 kvt's 2 kfte editors, 2 kdehelp windows, as well as kwm, kpanel, etc... running.
Works fine.
In the same statement you say you hope the KDE users will leave you alone then proceed to bash it. What a moron...
There were *several* objections. And to compound things, several developers argued that 'it's GPL, you cant stop us'. And when pointed out that the GPL does *not* allow linking to non-GPL compatible libraries, they started arguing the validity of the GPL and various ways to get around it. With that level of respect for other peoples copyright, licensing and code, it's not strange if some have a certain level of mistrust as far as KDE goes.
Would it be understandable if someone said "I object KDE linking _MY_ code to QT" and get rather annoyed when they're met with talkback and attempts to circumvent the license rather than a simple "sorry, wont happen again"?
Themes and such are nice if you're running on a PC. But will either of the big desktops run on ancient 4-meg b/w xterminals? My department experimented a bit with KDE a year or so ago, but it looked godawful on the terminals that most of the grad students are stuck with, not to mention crashing them a lot (out of mem errors). Surely there are other departments with tiny IT budgets. Can either of these desktops be pared down and configured small enough to work here? Ideally one could have two configurations, one snazzy for the color terminals, and one minimalist for the rest of the time.
Please let me be, don't haras me about my choice because I want to promote GNU. :(
Contradicting would have been if I harased someone for using KDE, and you are not going to make me stoop to your level, sorry.
It depends on what he meant by "really cool", doesn't it? Or when we say "really cool" we all know what it means. The same as saying "that girl looks really hot", does that mean she has big boobs, or a pretty face? It really means diffrent things to diffrent people, we are all not alike in what we consider a "really cool" application, accept our diffrences and you accept you are unique.
He didn't say original programs, he said new ideas and doing things better, as oposed to just porting over and renaming, that was his meaning. What he said can be interpreted to mean anything and be right, you might be taking his meaning out of context, especially considering you thought he said original when he said they are trying to do things bettering and coming with new ideas.
They do have new ideas and are doing things better, not better as in no bugs, but in design, I don't know as far as third party applications are concerned.
K:
1. Decent stack-ordered task switching
2. Good desktop switching (if you only use 2 windows)
3. Task manager useful and non-intrusive when 'hidden'
4. Good enough of a file manager
5. Easily configurable
I wouldn't mind a slimmer kde without all of the superfluous stuff as an option.
Plug follows:
-----------------
Anyone want to try my newsreader? Download mp3s, etc off of usenet in the comfort of your own linux:
http://www.geocit ies.com/ResearchTriangle/Forum/3838/dolphin.html
I suppose the use of a GUI depends entirely on what you are doing. Personally, I find text consoles entirely too limited for the tasks I frequently perform. I don't really need an entire screen showing information about cpu usage, 1% is enough. I frequently edit source and track down bugs in a number of files that would be ridiculous to attempt without a quick method of spliting the screen into several sections.
I don't use a machine running linux as a client. I find the client-server model of X very usefull in this respect. Opening even a half dozen telnet sessions would be beyond a hassle. I don't notice much speed difference between X apps and console apps. Granted I'm not running linux on terribly old hardware here (p 233 mmx), but even so I have never really seen a term in X react more slowly than a console. I find the X graphics routines to be fairly efficient as well - sliding a window around in X eats much more CPU time on my windows based P2 266 server than it does on the linux pentium 233 mmx client. (bleh, i'll never get the seemingly reversed client-server association down)
I find RPMs extremely usefull. I used Slackware several years ago and found out what kind of nasty problems can arise when everyone uses a different path for installing things. I don't really NEED to know everything that's going on during an install. Sure, it'd be nice to know, but I just simply don't have to time to be paranoid. Make it install smooth and I'm happy. Quite frankly the time it would take to investigate and analyze every single package that I wanted to install would vastly outweigh the time it would take to recover from even the worst of malicious surprises attached. This isn't to say that there isn't a place for the detailed information. On the contrary, I commend those who take the time to search out problems in the gobs of detail. What I find odd is that so many people think that Company X or Company Y is out to get them. In almost all of the cases, you're simply not important enough for that to be true. Most people don't consider the Pope paranoid for using a bullet proof dome on a vehicle (I heard somewhere that Bill Gates purchased an Armored SUV - regardless of wether he fears linux, it sounds like he fears linux users!), but if you do it, you'll probably be marked as a wacko.
Does the command line let you run Quicken? Which do you think is more likely - an X port of Quicken, or a console port of Quicken?
I find statements like "it looked too much like MS for me to be comfortable with it" oddly distrubing. A rather interesting side-effect of so many linux users being so anti-MS is that MS has as much control over them as it does over the MS loving crowd. It will be interesting when some company forms an unofficial and non-public agreement with Microsoft and has them basicly push customers their way..
all the hard works (15 years of hard works) by many fsf developers, hackers and students to create a utophia(GPL/LGPL) world are now tarnish by a library (QT), a Desktop Development (KDE) and a bunch of i-need-to-get-my-job-done-i-hate-editing-config-fi les-cml-is-so-hard-rms-is-shit-gpl-stupi d-money-is-what-i-want-kde-rulez-who-cares-i-like- tom-gnome-sucks-troll-customers-always-r ight users.
sad...sad...sad...
indeed a sad day.
its just debian left or it's ?
farewell red hat.
the future of linux is RedHat+KDE+QT.
Where do you want to go tomorrow ?
It is now just over 15 years since the beginning of the Free
Software Movement and the GNU Project. We have come a
long way.
In 1984, it was impossible to use a modern computer without
installing a proprietary operating system, which you would have
to obtain under a restrictive license. No one was allowed to share
software freely with fellow computer users, and hardly anyone could change software to fit his or her
own needs. The owners of software had erected walls to divide us from each other.
The GNU Project was founded to change all that. Its first goal: to develop a Unix-compatible portable
operating system that would be 100% free software. Not 95% free, not 99.5%, but 100%--so that
users would be free to redistribute the whole system, and free to change and contribute to any part of it.
The name of the system, GNU, is a recursive acronym meaning "GNU's Not Unix"--a way of paying
tribute to Unix, while at the same time saying that GNU is something different. Technically, GNU is like
Unix. But unlike Unix, GNU gives its users freedom.
It took many years of work, by hundreds of programmers, to develop this operating system. Some were
paid by the Free Software Foundation and by free software companies; most were volunteers. A few
have become famous; most are known mainly within their profession, by other hackers who use or work
on their code. All together have helped to liberate the potential of the computer network for all humanity.
In 1991, the last major essential component of a Unix-like system was developed: Linux, the free kernel
written by Linus Torvalds. Today, the combination of GNU and Linux is used by millions of people
around the world, and its popularity is growing. This month, we announced release 1.0 of GNOME, the
GNU graphical desktop, which we hope will make the GNU/Linux system as easy to use as any other
operating system.
But our freedom is not permanently assured. The world does not stand still, and we cannot count on
having freedom five years from now, just because we have it today. Free software faces difficult
challenges and dangers. It will take determined efforts to preserve our freedom, just as it took to obtain
freedom in the first place. Meanwhile, the operating system is just the beginning--now we need to add
free applications to handle the whole range of jobs that users want to do.
In future columns, I will be writing about the specific challenges facing the free software community, and
other issues affecting freedom for computer users, as well as developments affecting the GNU/Linux
operating system.
>Look how they violate the GPL (QT is not and
> never will be GPL compatible, but they take
> other people's GPLed code and link it to QT).
To my surprise, even before Troll Tech jumped on an Open Source bandwagon there was NO SIGNLE objection from developers about linking their code to QT.
Come on. Stop flaming. It would be understandable if You say : "I object KDE linking _MY_ code to QT". If You speak for other's code than... it's simply not Your business.
May be You simply didn't wrote anything worthwile yet... First DO something -- then engage in POLITICS (if You want)... Otherwise Your thoughts do not have much credibility.
KLM.
Both KDE and GNOME provide:
Session management
CORBA based component programming
High level application print services
High level application dialogs
Additional application services/libraries
Desktop productivity applications
Panel based application menus and virtual workspaces
Desktop themability (goes beyond UI toolkit themability)
Consistent look-and-feel for native applications
That's all you have to do to smear Qt and KDE, right? Just repeat the mantra 'Half-Assed Free License' or some such thing over and over, without bothering to explain why this is the case.
Unfortunately, this ad hominum FUD has been pretty effective - compare the amount of press received by the (premature?) release of GNOME 1.0 with the much smaller amount of attention received by the far more mature KDE 1.1. Sure, GNOME is full of cool ideas, but KDE is ready for the desktops of power users and beginners alike, right now.
I'm sick of this crap. Troll Tech may not have been on board with a 100% Open Source approach from Day 1, but thay have come a long long way in their licensing. As for Qt itself, it has been of top-notch quality right from the beginning. The documentation in particular is superb.
I will use KDE and Qt without apology, assist my Linux-newbie friends in doing the same, and do my best to speak up against anti-KDE FUD. Qt is the best widget set available for Unix, period, and KDE continues to set the pace for the Unix desktop.
-Doug Lay
-too lazy to log in.
KDE is great, but... what innovation?
Yes it is, and it's very nice of them. It still remains GPL incompatible tho. And, no, claiming essential system component about Qt does not hold water, which means you cant get around it that way (or anyone would be able to throw together a linux dist, claim essetial system component about a proprietary library and take whatever GPL code they want).
So, KDE still has to obtain permission to link GPL software to Qt or remove any third party GPL code. I, for one, would take appropriate measures if code under my copyright was linked without permission against a non-GPL compatible library (wether Qt or mfc32 for Linux).
KDE may be further along, i think GNOME has an ace up its sleeve, Netscape 5.0. Netscape 5.0 should be out pretty soon, and it is written in GTK. I would go so far to say that Redhat incurged this since Netscape anncounced that they were using GTK after they made a minor investment into Redhat. If Netscape 5.0 kicks ass I wouldn't be suprised if IBM, and other announce desktop programs in GTK. Another reason GTK is required to run GIMP which a hell of a lot of Linux users have. There is no such killer app in QT. And even if they don't most will when Netscape 5.0 comes out most will get because it will require GTK to run making it even more of a reason to choose GTK, and GNOME.
On a side note, I believe the main reason that Redhat is including KDE is to stop the Redhat spin offs, because they loose money in possible sales and support.
You are correct. There are those who would argue that Qt can be an 'essential system component' and thus be exempt from the requirement. I most certainly do not agree, for a number of reasons, and would pursue any such violation against any of my copyright, if it had been linked without asking permission.
There are only two possibilities, one is Qt becoming GPL compliant (which seems to be impossible, for some reason), or KDE using a modified GPL/other license and asking permission for any third party GPL code.
Over the last 3 days, I have compiled and installed gnome 1.0.3 on my slackware linux box.
/etc/ld.so.conf
/sbin/ldconfig -v after installing
(Yes, contrary to rumor, you can get it to
work with libc5). But
this is the first time I have been able to
compile any gnome release, and on Slackware,
it required extensive interaction on my part.
(Not to mention 3 sleepless nights). For the
compile to work, I had to do the following:
1) `hide' my gimp and gtk1.0.x directories.
(remove these directories from
and remove the path to the binaries. This
was easy for me since I had a separate directory
devoted to gtk and gimp. )
2) Configure each gnome package with
--disable-nls --disable-threads. Use the
package order given on the gnome web page.
3) Run
each package.
Anyway, last night, I finally compiled the
last of the 42 *.tar.gz packs and fired up gnome.
I tested it for what remained of the night.
The following are my observations.
1) Gnome is not as unstable as it is made out
to be. In fact, I could not get it to crash
even once in 3 hours. (Of course, it is possible
that I did not get to the unstable parts.)
2) Gnome reputation for "good looks" is, unfortunately, completely undeserved.
This is not a troll, people. I am serious.
I had great expectations of Gnome, as the one
thing that I kept hearing consistently on the
newsgroups is how good it looks. And the screenshots on the gnome web site
The reality is that Gnome looks and feels far
worse than KDE does. For instance, the icons are big and blocky and look amateurish. The whole thing has a clunky feel.
Surprised, I went back to the gnome site to
check out the snapshots. And lo and behold,
I noticed several things I had not seen before.
Strip the screenshots of the background images
and color schemes and my observations still hold.
Clunky icons and poor placements of the same.
People who love windowmaker won't
have any problems with this, since big blocky
icons are a feature of that famous desktop.
Anyway, this is quite disappointing... I don't
know if these icons are a temporary thing or are
going to be a permanent fixture of gnome. I hope
not.
If there are any slackware users out there who
need help with any stage of compiling and installing gnome, drop me a line.
Hari.
gharikumar@iname.com.
Exactly!
I admin a network which has GNOME, KDE and WM+xterm users. I don't care which one they use - as long as I can set up mime types and new applications in a uniform manner.
Currently, I can't - I've set up a KDE Application link, and MimeType links, for Applixware, but GNOME doesn't use them. Until there's a uniform way of doing things like this, we can't expect commercial software to use it, and hence we can't expect things to 'just work' when we click on them.
Hopefully, with RedHat (or indeed anyone) taking an active part in development of both, this will be fixed quite quickly.
Has anyone done QT-emulating C++ bindings for GTK, and a QT-like theme? :)
So, start writing code to do it. Sitting back and just wishing doesn't get anything done. You could start simply by writing a program that converts the files to a format the other can use. Then move on to writing code within both to allow them to use the other's format.
Some of the best programs started out by just being a program one person wanted, and then millions of others found useful too. Worldwide popularity is all that can come of it.
The irritating thing about this discussion is the assumption that we all have to have a 'desktop'. I sympathized a great deal with the fellow who wanted some assurance that WMs like WM were not going to be penalized- unfortunately the answer was basically, 'Don't worry- Window Maker has been assimilated!' What about the window managers which take an old school approach without paying attention to KDE? Are we looking at apps which penalize those in some cosmetic way, not at all (just adding hooks to KDE additions) or actual required functionality that forces you to use something that goes along with the KDE api?
Again, the thing that gets me is this- if I want a desktop I have MacOS. It's not going to go bad on me, it doesn't typically crash or exhibit bugs on me, and yet I am also dualbooting Linux. If I wanted to play with the Windows notion of what a desktop is, I could just run a Windows emulator, of which there are several. I'm not remotely impressed with either KDE or Gnome's featuresets or what's being offered- isn't this rather going against the grain of what Unix grew from, and doing it in a relentlessly Windows-like way to boot? I'd really contest the assumption that this is in any way necessary.
For years, secretaries and low paid clerical workers learned DOS, and didn't have too much trouble with it. Nobody figured that they were therefore brilliant computer geeks- they just learned to use the computer. Linux has the same potential for acceptance on its own terms, and doesn't seem to be trying for that at all- instead all the attention is largely on large-scale efforts to reproduce the way Windows works, evidently on the assumption that Microsoft's judgement and design sense is better than anyone else's out there, and that Windows is in fact the ultimate computer operating system that can only be imitated, never varied from. To innovate you evidently have to add more widgets to the total list of everything Windows already has, otherwise it doesn't count.
I seriously contest that assumption. It's understandable- really, really huge sums of money have been spent in a concerted, over and under-the-table effort to put across the idea that that _is_ the truth. It's also a bad assumption and is blocking attempts to evolve newer interfaces, for example interfaces that take elements _out_ rather than just always adding more elements towards a baroque frenzy of incomprehensible helpfulness.
I know I direct my attention towards having my Linux box be _different_ from my Mac side... I don't want a desktop, and the last thing I need is a taskbar- even on MacOS I can remember what I'm doing. I set up Linux with Window Maker and in fact took to using the clip for even more data hiding- now the startups for various apps are localized in workspaces. A GUI desktop is all very well but doing it properly is very complicated, and there is no reason to assume Windows is the canonical example of doing it properly... the obsessive interest in KDE and Gnome (regardless of how well or poorly they interoperate with each other and with other systems) suggests that nobody is willing to suggest that the desktop metaphor, in specific the _Windows_ desktop metaphor, isn't the only way people can use computers, and most notably is not necessarily the easiest approach for newbies!
Well, consider it suggested... people need extensive training to run Windows boxes, and even then they are frightened venturers into the weird regions of their own computers. People do _not_ rush to Windows boxes and immediately prance merrily about operating controls- in fact the opposite happens, they get shellshocked and become pitiably nervous and spooked and require lots of reassurance when talked through things. It _is_ the interface that causes this behavior.
Surely we can do better than that?
It needs to be compatible with the GPL, because KDE is licensed under the GPL. Since the QPL is not GPL-compatible, linking KDE with Qt remains illegal.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I'm not the one violating licenses, so I have no obligation to fix anything. They need to fix their own licensing mess, since they're the ones that created it in the first place.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I wasn't aware that the KDE license had been changed to the LGPL. When did this happen? Was permission for the license change received from all the copyright holders of the third-party GPL code the KDE team has used?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I understand that the new QPL is indeed a Free Software license, but is it GPL compatible? Since KDE is licensed under the GPL, if the QPL is not GPL compatible, linking KDE with Qt would be illegal, would it not? IIRC, a license requiring patches is incompatible with the GPL, so this remains the case.
The easiest solution I can see is that KDE could either change the license to LGPL, or provide an exemption for Qt. However, this would require the acquiescence of all the copyright holders of all the GPL'd code they've used.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Isn't that what GNOME is?
Posted by fieldmarshallburrito:
John Dvorak's just said it: "The heir to windows is a gentrified Linux". The mainstream press is starting to crack. As soon one of the big computer vendors lets you order a pre-configured linux box with your choice of KDE or GNOME, then it's all over for "Alpha Borg" Bill Gates.
Posted by stodge:
Am I the only person who thinks the GTK widget set is ugly? And I do think that KDE looks too much like Windows, but in an inoffensive way. They could have been a bit more creative (not necessary in eye candy, eh Enlightenment?).
Posted by stodge:
:)
I agree. Personally I hate messing with themes. Do themes waste CPU cycles?? I'd rather have something I prefer to use out of the box. I'm lazy!
Stodge in disguise.......
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
/. to delete comments but not OK for the FSF to ask programmers to use a particular license?
No, just plain ethical.
BTW, why is it OK for
If the GNUstep GNUrus can't be bothered to answer this question, why should I be bothered to look into GNUstep for using it or for developing apps? They can't even be bothered to fix their mailing-list page.
If it could be gotten to work, I'm sure it would be a worthy addition to the toolkit/environment flame^H^H^H^H^Hwars. But as it is, it seems (to this outsider) to be no more than an ineffectual quilting-bee.
Flames welcome. I'd like to learn more.
--
--
=8^
Noteworthy changes in version `0.5.5' =====================================
NOTE that the X/DPS backend is not supported at all in this release. Hopefully it will be fixed up in the next release.
Thanks for the heads-up. Back to the quilt, GNUrus...
--
--
=8^
Besides, 10G disks are breaking the $200 barrier now....
Craig
But whether it is or not, it's a useful example of the mindset that makes many of us dislike the GPL and gives us the uneasy feeling that it may have outlived its usefulness -- particularly in an age where trial lawyers bicker about what the meaning of "is" is and legislatures believe that no area of human interaction is safe against their interference.
The mere fact that some clown would be clueless enough to prattle about "all true Linux users" shows that the grownups in this movement -- who really do constitute the majority -- have a lot of educating to do.
Craig
Yep, the automount program and filemanager features are very convenient. But you have to bear in mind why they're necessary, and why they're separated from the OS core: Unix is a multiuser system, so anything that would change the operating environment for everyone at once requires root privileges, whether it's changing the CD or editing XF86Config.
If automount were built into the OS it would provide an endless source of security headaches for Linux as a server -- and just picture what a nice little office system could be set up with a central Alpha or high-end Pentium running apps for a dozen or so old 486s being used as X terminals; a cost-effective, flexible all-Linux installation. But automount under those circumstances would be a pretty awful idea....
Craig
Fortunately KDE and GNOME will be interoperable in this fundamental way in the next releases, Qt 2 will support wheel mice, key accelerator conventions seem to be getting more uniform, and so on. KWrite is very, very nice and Gnumeric seems to be almost mature enough to replace Wingz -- and all flame wars aside, either GTK+ or Qt is an enormous improvement -- both in code quality and freedom -- over Motif.
(My personal favorite desktop at the moment is either IceWM or XFCE with wmppp, NEdit, and of course a dozen xiterms. Ain't choice great? Check out www.x11.org when you get bored ....)
Craig
It will be fascinating to see to what extent the NGLayout engine can be adapted to kfm -- that could make for a dynamite combination.
It's a great year to be a hacker. I'm looking forward to it.
Craig
No, because it is the only license that perpetuates the FSF concept of freedom at the expense of a concept of freedom held by many other people.
"Freedom" is too important a word to allow it to be exclusively defined by one person or organization.
Craig
It's an old saying in many philosophical movements that you need to be more careful of your friends than of your enemies, for the simple reason that outsiders are more likely to judge your whole movement -- unfairly, of course, but that's the way it is -- more by what your friends do and say than by what your enemies do and say.
Now, for every person who carefully reads and absorbs the well-reasoned arguments at www.fsf.org/philosophy (I disagree with many of their conclusions, but they are rational and well-thought-out), several dozen will see this sort of adolescent foolishness. This is one reason why I'm somewhat disappointed that more adult GPL advocates don't try more actively to discourage this kind of mindless post. (On the other hand, they may realize that it's a hopeless undertaking.)
Craig
>THIS IS NOT LEGAL.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
Licensing issues are civil matters. To bring suit, you would need to show harm. You would also need to have acted consistently with the license. Any judge with half a brain would say, "You worked on this project in full knowledge of how it would be used and distributed, and yet you still claim damages when it is used in that fashion? Get out of my courtroom."
Now, if you submitted code to a different project which was then pulled into KDE, then you have a case. But if this doesn't describe you, STFU!
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Go play outdoors for a while, maybe go hiking or fishing. Honestly sometimes I think the opinions of the fanatic slashdot posters were spun from the migranes caused by intence spin of there out of balance monomeniacle lives.
~ ^~~^~
Redhat did something cool. They enabled choice, choice (not liscences) offers the ammunition for freedom. There choice enables us to make choice. Celebrate be happy, then decide if you will use it or not. (BTW its known as a contribution, unlike slashflame opinions.)
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~
I think this was a great strategic move on redhat's part.. In a single bound, they've kept toward their stance on Open Source[tm] software, and diffused one of the biggest rough spots that would push newbies toward Bero/Mandrake or SuSE.
;)
Perhaps this will foster something like a compatiblity layer between gnome/kde apps, too.
All this hiring reminds me of different countries' royal families intermarrying in feudal europe, btw..
what do you think he wrote the software for
--
Michael Hasenstein
http://www.csn.tu-chemnitz.de/~mha/
I believe the code to support kde was introduced from 0.50 onwards. If you update, you shold have no problems.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal." - Supertramp, The Logical So
The thing is, KDE and GNOME are not window managers. The even better news for you is that WindowMaker supports both KDE and GNOME. So all you need to do to run KDE or GNOME applications is to install the libraries, you can keep using WindowMaker as your window manager.
So even though KDE's default window manager is kwm, and GNOME's defaul is enlightenment, neither forces you to use that particular window manager to use that desktop environment.
So having Red Hat back KDE as well as GNOME is really a win/win thing.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal." - Supertramp, The Logical So
It's scary! ;-)
s ort=alpha
http://kde.themes.org/gallery.shtml?show=51-75&
...I don't. I don't plan on having one.
I can't afford one, even.
Why should those who don't own macs be deprived of a friendly GUI?
If you believe the MAC UI is good, why is it bad to use it as inspiration?
Finally: "we can do better?" what we is that?
What have you done to be part of the "we"?
(I mean besides flaming me in the past)
These questions are pretty easy to ask, but quite difficult to answer. None of the developers are claiming to be revolutionizing human-computer interaction. They're just trying to bring Linux up to the state of the art.
Contrary to your claims, people have been suggesting for years that the desktop metaphor isn't the only or best UI model. It's just that nobody has suggested a replacement which is clearly better. People are working on desktop environments because we basically know how to build a desktop environment. Nobody knows how to build the environment of the future, or even what it is.
Of course. But KDE and GNOME don't interoperate. They share a display, but not a clipboard, visual appearance, etc.
It's great that they're supporting two desktops. In fact they should support several different desktops. Part of what makes OSS so cool is that you have tons of choices. I think RH is putting for some fairly serious effort towards giving back to the community which made them possible.
preach on brother! amen!
seriously..
One thing that I found that is kindof nifty, on my system at least, is to run individual gnome components under windowmaker. I have my windowmaker autolaunch panel and gmc on launch,
[snip]
panel was something I was impressed with. What all did you have to have installed gnome-wise to get Gnome's panel working?
"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
--James Madison
seriously now
perhaps we should find a law firm or sympathetic legal expert who could evaluate all these zillion licenses, as well as their (in)compatibility
it's not that I don't trust Bruce, ESR, and RMS, but they all have the tendency to talk about the foundation before the concrete is poured
software licenses need more than peer review, they need legal examination
the artistic license especially underscores this
is the rumor true that KDE and GNOME can run at the same time on the same DISPLAY= ?
if that is the case then we can all really shut up
I'm hoping the Redhat 6.0 install will have a
window which asks "check the desktop environments
you would like to install", allowing you to install either, neither, or both KDE and GNOME.
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
i've had this set up for ages.
:)
i don't use kde, but i need the more familiar behaviour of kdm for some of the users. You can choose between openlook, fvwm95, windowmaker, KDE,
staroffice and quake with the sessiontype box.. cool.
works well, and the newer versions of it support PAM aswell.
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
I DONT want a GUI forced upon me. Those are Apple/Microsoft tactics.
I want the choice of all of the available GUIs.
So Red Hat, Caldera, Suse, Pacific Hitech, Debian heed these words!
Linux is about freedom. Anything which reduces that freedom is a "Very Bad Thing".
Deleted
I'm glad to see Red Hat finally embrace KDE after flip-flopping on the issue so much. After all, KDE is the only truely usable GUI for Linux. Gnome, Englightenment, whatever may be nice but they have a long way to go yet. KDE is usable now, and has an interface that users will be comfortable with.
I just wish that Red Hat would become more concerned about security and make Red Hat 6.0 as solid as possible. Perhaps they could fund a project to close security holes in the Linux code?
Michael.
...all of the features that you mentioned that you like in KDE are in WM as well. Plus, WM has a few WONDERFUL features that I haven't seen anywhere else (like ALT + drag to move/resize).
I ran KDE for a while (back in the Beta 2 days). I like that it's clean, modern, and friendly to people coming from Windows. But then I found WM and there was no going back (though I still use a few of the nifty little K apps). I need to take a close look at KDE 1.1 and see what all has changed.
--Lenny
I believe you're referrign to MDI. They stink!
Eudora and Pegasus at work use them, I find them
completely constricting. I think it was a BIG
MISTAKE for KDE to use these in ANY of their apps.
Once the main installation was done, getting KDE going took about five minutes :).
**huge round of applause***
I'm not familiar with the details of OpenDoc, so I don't know how useful that stuff (which I infer isn't OpenDoc in its entirety) would be outside the environments they mention.
This is perhaps better stated as
I.e., disable automount on a server, perhaps, but don't prohibit users from putting it on their own single-user desktop machine.
And the reason why automounting a floppy disk is bad, and manually mounting it is not bad, is? (NOTE: automount and autorun aren't the same thing. Automount would be something like "if you refer to something under /floppy, and there's a floppy disk in the drive that /floppy is set up to automount, and that disk isn't currently mounted, mount it on /floppy." Autorun, for a floppy drive, would be something like "if the machine detects that a disk has been put into the floppy drive - which, on a PC, would probably involve polling the floppy drive - mount it and run autorun (or whatever) on the root directory, if it exists.")
I didn't, either, but AltaVista Is Your Friend; I eventually found this Linux Weekly News page, which said, near the bottom:
The KDE folks addressed this by using the LGPL.
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
So, it's time for the KDE-haters to stop.
Like the GPL, Qt is free for use with free software only. Proprietary software needs a different license.
Gnome has its libraries LGPL-ed, and is thus OK for both free and proprietary software.
I still like Gnome and run it at home, but there is nothing wrong with Qt's license now.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I haven't managed to make it crash either but I have gotten a lot of odd behaviour, especially when using the control center to change window managers. It's hard to know who's at fault (i.e. to whom the bug report should be sent) when you have all these different GUI things interacting behind the scenes, many of which have 0.X version numbers.
MDI is the worst piece of crap ever invented. It was designed for Windows 3.0 to try to prevent inactive applications from swapping in. It serves NO OTHER PURPOSE!!!! Get that through your thick skull!
Unfortunately due to MDI Windoze has broken the UI by making windows "click to the top" even if you try to pick a menu item or click a button in them. This error existed in X once upon a time (in X9 I believe) and was fixed. That was only 15 years ago so I guess MicroSoft has not caught up.
PLEASE NO MDI! Thank you.
kpanel -no-KDE-compliant-window-manager
How about that? It would be nice if they documented that. Actually it would be even nicer if they just detected this fact, surely they can check to see if their own window manager is running!
I wrote a window manager (flwm) and tried to get kde apps to run under it and everything seems to work except kpanel. I'll try this switch soon.
Hey, some of us poor, misguided souls actually like olvwm. Of course, most of us work on suns, and only have CDE as an alternative...
Having olvwm at home gives me a consistant interface no matter where I am.
The big reason I like olvwm is that it doesn't do any of these fancy things that kwm, enlightenment or whatever do. It stays out of my face until I ask it for something.
--
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
The GPL doesn't require him to distribute the code at large. He only has to provide the code to the people to whom he distributes the embedded system.
Ok, now all we need is a nice XDM-based desktop chooser system, so you can easily choose between window managers/user environments, using the Xsession system. I had the KDM setup for a while to do something like this, and it was very nice. If that came with redhat by default, it would make beginners able to use the system right off, as easily as win95. The system boots right into KDM or whatever and the user is off.
The only intelligent arguements against KDE were against the QT libs. I to am against Prop. Libs.
BUT QT is NOW free. So there really shouldn't be any arg's left.
I think this is a great move for the Linux community. Though I hope they keep up with Gnome devel, because I personally didn't like using KDE (but hey that is just personal preference).
Awesome!
They're giving you choice. Now they're giving you the choice of running KDE _or_ Gnome.
They realize that dividing the community is a very bad move and it would hurt the efforts at making Linux have a decent desktop environment, our biggest challenge right now.
I can get
Developers in the end will choose what environment to code in, and it is up to them what license they want to use.
Please, stop spouting that bull. You make all Debian users look bad with unfounded assertions and stupidity like that.
Ben
For the longest time, I used FVWM. Not pretty, not easy to configure (I prefer immediate visual feedback), but perfectly usable. I recently decided I wanted something prettier, and something that would display a nice clock and battery meter off to one side. Because of some questions surrounding the licensing underlying KDE, I decided to go with WindowMaker. I'm happy.
However, when looking over KDE, I noticed that some apps are "enhanced" for special features KDE has. Forgive my naivate, but I thought the whole point of Xwindows was to allow apps to run under any window manager, and they would all look and work (more or less) the same.
So. With a major contributor like Red Hat backing KDE, will people like me currently using WindowMaker find themselves needing to switch to KDE because of all the apps tailored to it? I don't really have anything against KDE at this point, but WindowMaker works fine, and if, in the grand scheme of things, I shouldn't have to use a particular window manager, I'd prefer not to switch.
Are my concerns unfounded?
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
BTW, it was at about the same time as the QPL 1.x white paper that Red Hat dropped CDE since they decided it is a basic technology and that they (Red Hat) were not allowed to fix security bug.
As far as any company that I know of goes, Red Hat has a true philosophy beyond making a buck. For that, I thank them.
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Shallow? The whole issue is that Red Hat thinks the "standard" platform should come with source code that can be fixed.
If a security problem with CDE, companies like Sun, IBM, and HP...
There was a security problem and Red Hat was at the mercy of an unresponsive vendor to wait for a Linux fix.
Where's the hypocrasy? Remember, the issue Red Hat had was that the Qt 1.x license was not compatible with all the GPLd code used in KDE and that Qt 1.x did not allow the redistribution of fixes.
Red Hat pays people to write GPLd code, what a bunch of bastards...
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Does your PnP modem allow you to disable the PnP "feature" and just set it for a specific port? Also, not trying to be a smartass, but are you sure that it is not a winmodem?
Also, Enlightenment is alpha software at best! It isn't even feature complete. It is currently at version 0.15.4, note the *0*. I like Linux, but it isn't for everyone. Neither is windows or MacOS or OS/2, Plan9, QNX, FreeBSD, dos, etc..
If you never use Linux just because of modem trouble, you may be missing a chance to learn about something that could be a powerful computing tool for you. There are several redhat newsgroups where you could probably find much friendly, useful help.
Good Luck
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Get the hell over it. How about we call the merging BANAIP (Bitch About Naming AFTER Integration, Please).
:P
I don't have problem giving the GNU project credit where credit is due. The acronym was just something I made up off the top of my head
I've put my money where my mouth is - forked out cash for books on QT, CORBA, and all kinds of other interesting topics. I'll be working towards integration. I hope those who quibble about a silly issue like name will be willing to do the same.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
I'm all in favor of this. It's good for Red Hat -- they get a mature, functional desktop now (KDE) and later (GNOME). They don't pick sides, they just produce a good distribution.
Anyway, I'd really love to see GNOME and KDE come together over a few solid issues. One of these is CORBA. Hot damn that stuff gives me wood.
Universal drag-n-drop plus universal theme support will virtually ensure a seamless blending of the two desktop systems.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
"Freedom of choise is what you've got,
Freedom from choise is what you want." - Devo
I started writing just such a beast. I have some signal/slot stuff working. It still relies on the
Troll moc precompiler, but that is no longer an
issue with 2.0. It will run some of the Qt tutorial, (read: needs lots of work). I was hoping to take some of the Harmony code for the non-visual classes. The biggest problem I've found so far is that QWidget can be directly instantiated and acts like a fixed widget in gtk, and it may be inherited as well.
If anyone is interested I can release the code, it's just sort of a fun hack for me currently.
Brian
QT 2.0 is free too.
You never give up, do you ? They asked for it by making their toolkit Open Source. Yeh, they really deserve to be punished for that.
Redhat did nothing wrong. They just said they couldn't include Qt in the base distribution, and wouldn't include KDE because of that. Its fair enough, really, isn't it ?
Qt and KDE are free. Even RMS says so.
How ?
You 'suffer' from restrictions on what you can do with other people's code anyway. The purpose of the OSD is not to allow you to behave like a spoiled little brat, but to give you a certain minimum level of freedom. If you want more, you might benefit by being polite to the people who might give it to you.
You can use Qt. Its free. You've done nothing to substantiate your main point, which is that you think being asked to distribute patches separately from the originals is an imposition.
Its not a half-arsed free license. It is a free software license. It preserves your freedom to modify the source and distribute the changes. I'm not going to accept his mud-slinging because its precisely this kind of person who gives us all a bad name as a bunch of fanatical uncooperative loonies.
The GPL was written with input from lawyers, and RMS regularly consults legal volunteers (at least one of which is is highly respected law professor specializing in intellectual property) when questions come up. So, when RMS talks about licensing conflicts, it is based on review by highly skilled legal talent (for example, on the MPL/GPL incompatibility problem).
ESR and Bruce Perens have, I think, both shot from the hip a bit too much on license issues (Eric is too quick to say that the OSD is satisfied, Bruce has sometimes been too quick to say that there are problems).
If you mean Windows-style MDI interface, where the "internal" window looks like a normal window, but is embedded in an application frame, then I'd say.... NO! DON'T GO THERE!
;)
IMHO, it's a horrible piece of UI, and anyone advocating it should be short. JMHO
-- i will protect you from ideals to save you from defeat
So RedHat is funding two desktops? Who do they think they are, Microsoft?!? :-)
Or, you could play the game that I am right now. Running Window Maker 0.51.2 (with KDE/Gnome support compiled in) and the panel from Gnome 0.99.something. The KDE panel works just as well with the recent Window Maker releases.
KDE mode? What they hell is that?
KDE apps work in any window manager, as long as you have qt and the KDE libs. The same is true of GNOME, you need gtk, glib, and all the GNOME libs for GNOME apps to run.
The reason they rewrote so many apps is 1) Consistant look and feel (This is one of the biggest criticisms launched against Unix) and 2) interoperability. You can't drag a Postscript file from kfm into ghostview, but you can to kghostview.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Even though WM supports KDE, mixing the two is like fingernails on a chalkboard. KDE has a flat, cartoonish apperance, whereas WM is big on gradients, and gradients everywhere.
This is not a criticism of either, I use both, I just don't think that they mix.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
;^)
I don't think the projects will merge, but hopefully interoperability will be the goal
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
The real shame is that they won't use perfectly good software because they have a minor grip about the license. Hell, even RMS said that the QT's QPL is acceptable, although not perfect.
What's worse is that they demand that distro's ship with crappy software as long as the licenses' are pristene. For instance "xv" is a good image tool that Red Hat USED to ship, now it's missing from the Red Hat 5.x apparently because of Red Hat's recent "free software" shift. Instead I get something called "ee" which is inferior, can't do half of what xv can, but at least the license is pure!
Maybe it's time for me to switch to SuSe.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Huh?
Anonymous Whiner: Wah! Wah! you bullys, QT is not free
Troll: What? We give you the source and you don't have to pay us if you write free software with it.
AW: Doesn't matter, When Microsoft buys you, they will control Linux, *Sniff* Wah!
TT: Ok, we'll create the free QT agreement, if we get bought out or go out of buisness, QT goes BSD license.
AW: Wah! Wah! Not good enough, I want to know that I can change the source code, Unlike the software *I* write, QT is probably full of security holes.
TT: Ok, QT is our bread & butter, but we're going to create the QPL, which will allow you to make changes, just as long as they are in patch form.
AW: Wah! That does it! Your QPL killed the Harmony project. Now you're asking for it! We're going to change KDE to make it use a patched QT to teach you a lesson you big meanies!
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
They dropped CDE after the QT incident. Myself, and probably many others sent them email accusing them of hypocrasy.
Since CDE is the standard desktop of the Unix world, the "Security" thing is a shallow excuse. If a security problem with CDE, companies like Sun, IBM, and HP would be affected, companies much bigger than Red Hat. They would get it fixed.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Why do you need two logins? I have a simple .wm_style file which holds the name of the Window Manager/Desktop Environment that I want to run.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
I'm hoping that Redhat asks which keys you want to use for backspace and delete. I'm sick of having to fix this every time I install.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
When you create drawers and start popping in monitors and applets, they stretch the menus in horrible looking ways. At least WindowMaker keeps it's dock applets the same size.
Also those tooltips-- Ugh! (The smoke ones)
They look cool at first, but quickly get in the way.
And how can you disable tear-off menus? I hate tear-offs. It seems that you can customize everything else.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
That's great if you have the time to do all that
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Who cares? If you have a problem with a package being not up to your standards, just "rpm -e" it.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Unfortunately this person ripped it righo out of rms's new column on linuxworld. "In future columns" come on bud if you are going to blatantly pagarize a document atleast put it in context. You suck you act like you want free software for the love but then you rip rms's thoughts without giving credit of all people.
Grow up...
Douglas Calvert
Bruce, you should save your breath. The FSF jihad will never stop, because their viewpoint is essentially theological, and they have made conformity to the GPL into a pseudo-ethical issue.
It is a crusade for them, like the Crusades of old: "Use the GPL, or we'll verbally destroy you!!!" They're not worth the time or energy. You can't argue with zealots.
BTW: If my first reply to this was censored: Yes, Slashdot has the right to do so. I admit that, and have no problem with it. But as far as I'm concerned it also shows the lengths to which the FSF jihad is willing to go to "win" in its holy war against all those who have the temerity to question the jihad.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
My conclusion is that though Bruce is strongly in favor of free software, he's willing to accept non-GPL free licenses. Some folk seem incapable of doing that, and they're really the target of my screed.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
No I didn't. I said he is willing to accept non-GPL free licenses. Read my post again. Clearly the fact that he declares the QPL to be a free license means he can accept it, even if he personally prefers some other license. And Microsoft's EULA is not something that anyone would reasonably construe as a "free" license.
The QPL is a free license unless your definition of "free" is that of the FSF jihad. The fact that you must pay for Qt if you wish to develop commercial software with it has no impact whatever on the nature of the QPL...unless, of course, your interest is free beer rather than this "free speech" I hear so much about?
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Good post! Unfortunately, the FSF jihad doesn't share your reasonable opinion.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
BTW, why is it OK for /. to delete comments but not OK for the FSF to ask programmers to use a particular license?
Okay, I'll admit that "pseudo-ethical" wasn't the best choice of words. Instead, try this: The FSF jihad claims that free software is an ethical issue, and that is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life. GPL-ed code is no more ethical in and of itself than proprietary code.
There, is that any clearer?
I have no problem with the GPL. I have no problem at all with a programmer choosing to use ANY license he wishes for his software -- even if it's proprietary. What I object to is the ridiculous idea (argued for by the FSF jihad literally every time licensing issues come up here on Slashdot) that the GPL is the only moral license one can use for free software. This is bogus. It is laughably, pathetically false.
This is not to say that the GPL is necessarily completely bad (though the "viral" aspects of it might be legitimately disliked by some). My point is that the GPL is ONE free license. It's not the ONLY one, and may not even be the BEST one, and it's CERTAINLY not the only moral one -- despite the ravings of the jihad.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
You don't have to do anything. That's the beauty of it. You don't like it? Don't use it.
This has nothing to do with whether it's free or proprietary, and really all code except public domain code is "proprietary": someone owns it, and they have released (or not released) it under certain terms. Sometimes the terms are more liberal (the BSD license); other times they are stricter (the GPL); and still other times they require patches.
You don't own GPL-ed code. You never have. You never will unless it's code of your own. It's free to use as the author dictates. Same with Qt.
If you don't like it: don't use it. My, that's simple, isn't it? Choice is a beautiful thing. It's a shame the FSF jihad refuses to see that.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
This is terrific. I'm glad to see Redhat follow this mature line of behaviour this can only help to improve free software and grow the free *nix community.
Well done Redhat.
Actually I would say that attempting to limit users choice to a single desktop environment by black marketing to be Microsoft like behaviour.
Funding two desktops is good for users as it ensures alternatives exist. It makes good business sense too. KDE has never been healthier, if Redhat had ignored it then they would have limited themselves to creating a second rate distribution and risked losing their position as market leader.
Futhermore Redhat supporting both KDE and GNOME improves the likelihood of these two DEs providing interoperable object models.
OpenLook, CDE, command line, and in my case, KDE now. Now if I could only get it to grok the multiheaded display thing...
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
KDE already is themable. see http://kde.themes.org.
But there are also many different look and feel options. Have you used any GUI besides windows ? The way I have KDE set up, it looks and feels more like CDE than it does windows.
Cheers,
-- DOnovan
BTW, you can get all the KDE apps under WM. To get the panel , use kpanel -no-KDE-compliant-window-manager To get the file manager (which makes a nice solid lightwieght web browser ) , use kfm -w Of course, you can use all of the apps and utilities as long as you have kdelibs , kdesupport and QT installed. cheers, -- Donovan
Choice is always a good thing.
Thanks Redhat.
~Grell
A child of 5 could understand this. Fetch me a child of 5!
...when it gets down to fundamentals, do what you have to do and shed no tears. Dr. Matson in Tunnel in the Sky
Back to KDE, though? Nope. Too slow for me. Someone said "Yeah... it really wants 64 meg or it thrashes a lot."
I decided I don't want a "desktop environment" for now. So I'm back to Window Maker and some well-configured menus for general use. It's sort of nice. I reclaimed a lot of HD space and my machine acts like the speedy thing it is.
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mphall@cstone.nospam.net
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mphall@cstone.nospam.net
"A horse laugh is worth a thousand syllogisms"
i've tried disabling the PnP feature of the modem and setting it directly but even if so it still doesn't connect right... still a long delay before anything gets through... 20-30 seconds... makes minicom really frustrating :-)
:-)
its a diamond supraexress - i returned a winmodem to get it actually... i've gotten this (well, the other one i've got) to work with linux before... maybe i should just swap it for my parent's modem (the old one)? hmmm..
i know, but hell, even with windows ill run beta software (i was one of those insane people that ran memphis until IE4 was integrated and i frequented betanews.com all the time)
i've tried the redhat groups... maybe i'll try again... its rather frustrating waiting for responses but noone really helps me in #linux on efnet either though... oh well, i'll keep on muddlin though it
8Complex
windows stole a LOT of its gui from mac's... so hmmmmmmmmm... if anything kde is its own stolen and rewritten version of the mac os... as much as i hate to say that too cause i use windows so much... lol :-)
8Complex
what about enhancing things like PnP (I've had redhat 5.2 installed for 3 months now... i STILL can't get my modem to work under it cause it won't assign it correctly - hence i never use linux, a wasted 1.2 gig right now)
:-)
;-)
and how about enhancing the ease of installation of things? anyone try installing enlightenment? its a COMPLETE BITCH.. download these 17 rpm's then go download 7 more that need upgrading before you can install some others... which break dependencies of other things you need to upgrade... its retarded. when did the word UPGRADE lose all its meaning???
and how about configurability? you know, having every little thing in seperate text files isn't so bad... its the whole idea that you can't FIND them and there is no central config panel for everything... control-panel only does so much, linuxconf (linuxconfig?) only does so much (and is buggy as hell) - granted its still all better then the "registry"
so really, who gives a shit that they're backing a desktop environment when what they need to do is a little bit of restructuring of the OS? get with it people... and help me get my god damn modem working while you're at it
8Complex
May you flame to your hearts' content... I will only learn from them.
Before reading the rest of this post, go back and read all the posts by Bruce Perens. I think he's said it about 3 or 4 times now.
KDE is cool. So will GNOME be when it's ready. From the screenshots, Enlightenment looks like the best-looking.
I've been running KDE 0.99 since 12/11/1999 and it hasn't crashed on me once. I haven't even bothered to upgrade because I have no need to. My girlfriend, a Windoze user, loves it so much that she'd rather log on to my Linux box than Windoze now.
I'm looking forward to the day when Linux users stop sounding like whiney Mac users and stop bickering over stupid shit like this.
the beauty of linux is that it doesn't have to be anything. you'll have the choice of GUIs, or if you want, no GUI. that's up for you to set up. as for the average user nowadays, they want something easy to use.
i'm looking forward to corel's linux. it will have everything set up for you and all you'll have to do is turn the power on and log in. you'll have your kde-like desktop and your office suite waiting for you. that perfectly suits the average user, like my folks or my girlfriend. if we could pull them away from microshaft, more power to kde or gnome or whatever bells and whistles GUI it took to do that.
i personally use vi still to write everything, and i'm more comfortable with the command line than some icon you push and hope it works. that's my choice. in a selfish respect, i'm looking forward to the day any moron could use a computer, because when something goes wrong, i could charge him an arm and a leg to fix it.
I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem like you can build an internal windows with GTK apps. Unfortunately this is very important in modern software apps and is the one big advantage that KDE has over GTK. I think if GTK and KDE were to standardize on an internal window system with min/max buttons than things would be better.
I'd really like to see Linux get to the point where KDE and Gnome can co-exist. They've both got enough merits and momentum that there's no point trying to kill one of them off. But if you're trying to attract mainstream applications to Linux, you have to attract developers, and if you want to attract developers, you need standards. It's just not worth their time to have to develop an app for KDE and then discover that in order to attract the OTHER half of Linux users, you're going to have to port the whole thing over to Gnome. This is the kind of stuff that people who don't like Linux love to complain about, and frankly they have a point. One of the biggest frustrations for me early on (and even still today, sometimes) was that every dingle X-Windows app seemed to want some different windowing toolkit, or library, or whatnot, that had to be downloaded from this site, except that now that site is giving you an HTTP 404 error and you just give up and end up booting back into NT. Anyway, my point is that it doesn't really matter whether KDE or Gnome or GNUStep or Bob's Little Windowing Toolkit is better, what's important is that we get these guys talking to each other. Hopefully, eventually you could drop a KDE app into your Gnome desktop and have all the bindings work fine, and all the special features working right. Be kind to your developers, and they will be kind to you. I sure as heck don't want to write apps for one environment and then have the other one win out...
Anyway, that's my relatively worthless two cents.
There's the Linux Security Audit Project mailing list, which is doing some good work (coordinator is Chris Evans). And while Redhat isn't exactly funding it, they do have Alan Cox working on it. Redhat is also pretty prompt in putting up RPMs of the stuff that the project has fixed (as is Debian).
What am I missing here?
I dislike how KDE is really bloated but it's still in the infant stages (Like NT5.0 and winnuts98) when it matures it will surely be a lean-mean window manager. Also KDE flat out rules that it installs instantly on a RH machine. while gnome takes 90 billion downloads and you have to fight the thing the whole way. Although KDE could have a install scrip to apply the rpms in the right order.. (3.2 seconds of programming work) Red hat will become the newbie Linux distrib... and I hope that Slackware keeps being nice and stable for my older apps (Try and compile gpsd under RH5.X ... but it compiles under slackware..)
Redhat and KDE = 100% perfect way to get a newbie hooked on Linux. Debian/Slackware and Afterstep = the great way to keep a hacker realllly happy.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Yeah i'll admit that the default GNOME looks a bit clunky, but a great thing about GNOME is its ability to change. Here are some things i've done to pretty up my GNOME:
Coordination: since i have drawn most of my own bitmaps on my desktop, i have kept up a consistant purplish-grey color with bright yellow active areas.
Enlightenment: use it. I made a custom theme to match my GTK theme, and it looks great.
Backround pixmap: use some cool stuff, try for color coordination more than a kick-a$$ image.
GTK+ themes: I used thin-ice, which is fast, and the best-looking widgets i've ever seen. Very clean and proffesional looking while not being boring. I didn't like the default colors so i changed them to a more pleasing purplish-gray.
Quicklaunch or something like that: it's a panel app which will display smaller icons if you don't like the larger ones.
Put a bit of work into it, and you can make your GNOME desktop look really sweet.
KDE and GNOME and a few smallish apps on them, like file managers, help systems, and panels. But the real benifits of these desktops is indirect. KDE and GNOME provide services to the apps, which in turn make better apps which help you out. If you want to find out exactly what they do, go to thier websites: www.kde.org and www.gnome.org.
Yeah, actually, I work 60+ hours per week on HP-UX and Solaris running CDE and OpenWindows. I also ran OS/2 for about a year, and own a Mac. I've even messed around with QNX...
Anyway, I guess that one of my primary gripes about KDE are the icons. They are very professionally done, but done in the same manner that Windows is "professional."
I was running the KDE off of the RedHat 5.2 disk (whichever KDE version that is) and in the default installation, I felt like I was using Winbloze -- the helper apps (control-panel, etc) were all there, the icons very similar, and the buttons/windows looked very close.
I looked briefly into changing things to be more Next-like, but I eventually came to the conclusion (right or wrong) that the Qt libraries were providing the icons/etc. that were making it Windows like, so it would be unlikely to have a simple theme change the underlying libraries. (I'd like to see more about that Next like Qt library, though...) The few themes I did try-out at the time only changed the backgrounds, colors, and stuff like that. Still the same basic look (like changing the themes in WinXX).
Mike
Pinball, arcade video, tech and more: www.micsaund.com
It bothers me that KDE looks so much like Win95/Win98 and is getting so much attention. Basically, the only difference in appearance from KDE and WinXX is the little wharf type bar.
Now, admittedly, I'm NOT a KDE expert, and maybe there is a way to get the KDE "extended functionality" from another window manager (sounds like GNOME then), but the default window manager creates a WinXX style clone. All of the buttons, icons, app layouts, etc. look like Bill Gates himself designed everything.
I, for one, enjoy having a unique desktop. I really like the Next type appearance, and thus I choose to run WindowMaker. I never (NEVER) want my Linux machine to look just like Winbloze. Isn't this ability to customize your environment one of the key points in using Linux?
Pinball, arcade video, tech and more: www.micsaund.com
I personally don't need all that extra stuff so I just use WindowMaker. So I don't have any files on my desktop, because I don't have that functionality (don't miss it, reminds me too much of winbloze and Macintosh, mac isn't quite as bad, but I still won't use one as my personal computer).
This whole thing is about choice. You choose your GUI based on what you need. Check out the feature listings, go read up on a couple of these proggies, gnome stuff is at www.gnome.org and KDE is based at www.kde.org. I personally use WindowMaker, refered to earlier as "GNUstep." They all have their advantages, they all are extremely configurable, check out themes.org, and pay special attention to OctoberX's stuff (he's one of /.'s).
So I guess what all the hubbub is about, is that we pick what our GUI looks like and how it reacts to our commands. It is a huge matter of personal needs and preferences. There isn't anything forced on us. SuSE comes configured to run KDE, but I changed when I decided I didn't like it. Like the distro wars, one's choice of GUI can get to be pretty personal and some users tend to get pretty emotional about their particular window manager.
ph43drus
There already exists a desktop chooser XwmMenu, I use it every day.
Linux, coming to a desktop near you!
I use WindowMaker and GNOME. I develop in GTK+ because of costs issues with Qt. The applications I write will be released as shareware and some will be freeware. GTK+ offers me the best cost solution. Qt is nice, but anything I develop in Qt (if I do) will be freeware, unless I can see making lots of money from my apps written for it.
I plan on donating pertcentage of my sales to help out the Linux movement. This means donations to the Free Software Foundation and other groups involved in producing free software for Linux.
I just like GTK+, but also have Qt around for other applications I may use.
My redhat 5.2 box has xv, I use it all the time.
-matt
Tell you the truth, I don't know, as I installed the whole darn mess. I believe you would at least need the gnome-core package...which I believe actually contains the code for panel, but I am unsure of how that depends on the other aspects of Gnome. Anyone else know...this would be usefull just because the Gnome install process is such a mess....entirely too many files to download, keep track of, and the like.
I found Gnome too unstable also, which made me sad because I prefered the feel of it to KDE. I like KDE, and support it, but its just a tad to slow for me....gnome on the other hand is fast and has, IMHO, a nicer interface, but its install is freaking insane and its not stable.
One thing that I found that is kindof nifty, on my system at least, is to run individual gnome components under windowmaker. I have my windowmaker autolaunch panel and gmc on launch, and for some reason this is far more stable than using gnome-session was. had no problems with it, but I have just been using it for acouple days. That way I can still keep the nifty gpager and set up some drawers for common apps, but keep most of the advantages of windowmaker. granted, this strips out alot off the niftyness of gnome..but hey.
It might just be gdm, unless they have just said the hell with that being their default desktop (which I doubt).
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
KDE I guess is striving to be instantly usable by any one comming from windows95. I can say this about GNOME too. I am prone to saying the hell with any desktop that makes me learn how to use a windowing system all over again.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
you are aware that bruce is, at the very least, a four-star general in said army, no?
-k. ^-^ ^D
It's NOT voluntary! Hackers everywhere are being forced to pay Red Hat to support this software! When are we going to stop the madness and INSIST that the binaries be free, the source be free, the documentation be free, and the SUPPORT be free?
Oh, sure, we COULD write our own documentation, and we COULD look in the support newsgroups, but that IGNORES the fact that someone, somewhere, is PAYING ACTUAL MONEY for these things. It's an anomoly, and it creates an IDEOLOGICAL impurity. Does not compute! *clank* Does not compute! *clank*.
Not only must we insure that these things are free so that ALL computer people can help their fellow women and men achieve the NIRVANA that is the INEVITABLE UTOPIAN RESULT of absolute freeness, but the people who have PERPETRATED these travesties must be made to CORRECT THEIR WRONG THINKING. They must be made to admit their mistakes through self-criticism, and, if they persist in such counter-revolutionary agitation, re-education through labor becomes a real option.
-k. ^-^ ^D
Heh.. good old quote!
If the projects did merge, I think GDE would be a much better name than KNOME. Blech, KNOME just looks ugly.
Why is it all flamers are AC's?
Anyway, WindowMaker is not dated, it as good gnome support, KDE suppost and ol(v)wm support.
Those 1 inch bars you are refering to are resizable.
Smarten Up or Shut Up.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
As some person pointed out to be once, KDE IS NOT A WINDOW MANAGER. kwm is a window manager, if you actually knew anything about software you would have noticed that its easily possible and very effecitive to replace kwm with WindowMaker and still have the complete (in fact improved) KDE thing going on.
So there!
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
The G in GNOME (and GIMP and a number of other apps) stands for GNU. Do they want to take the GNU out of free software?
It is a symbolism thing. I like to think of the GNOME stuff I write as GNU stuff as well.
Cool
-Master Switch, one more element in the machine
It continues to amaze me to see people bad mouth the work of the KDE group and the GNOME group. Both of these groups have worked very hard to give you something for FREE. These are quality "products". They may not be perfect, but they are advancing rapidly. If you disagree with the philosophy of one or the other, then don't use the one you don't like. Linux offers you the unique choice of interfaces. Find one you like and use it. Don't bother me about which one I need to use. Don't run around putting peoples hard work down. Voice your opinion through your choice, not your big mouth. Hey, by the way, don't forget Afterstep and Window Maker. Hell, there are probably 10 or 12 more. As for Red Hat supporting KDE, great. In my humble opinion, I believe that a distrobution maker should offer their customers the widest range of choices. It's good to see this happening.
-Master Switch (Linux, KDE, GNOME, Window Maker, AfterStep, and console user) Its ALL GOOD
-Master Switch, one more element in the machine
An idiot you may not be, but you're acting like one. All Red Hat ever had against KDE was the use of the closed source QT packages. Troll Tech has revised their license. It's free as long as your product is open source, and otherwise compliant with the goals of the GPL.
Red Hat seems to support any quality product, and a high level of diversity as long as it meets the open source standard.
Have you tried gtk.themes.org? Sure, the default is pretty plain, but it can look MUCH better with a nice bitmap theme. I like the marble one.
When I found an environment that let me Alt-Tab to other applications by default (not to mention using the keyboard to go to another virtual desktop) and make me feel like I could manipulate and configure my environment from the environment itself I finally felt like I could have faith in world domination. Besides, it's wonderful to be able to have themes and event driven sounds. These little things make going from A to B that much quicker.
bnf
this space intentionally left blank (oops)
That's a very nifty idea, assuming it could work with a non-DE-specific XDM (no preference!) Just like a Solaris box, where you can choose right from the login screen: OpenLook or CDE.
(although why anyone would choose OpenLook is beyond me };-)
iSKUNK!
I assume you're talking about the WIMP paradigm (Windows, Icons, Menus, Pointers) and how GNOME doesn't really get out of that groove. I've wondered about this myself-- I mean, compare the super-well-thought-out UI and object-oriented-everythingness of GNUstep, and the far-out ideas that have been kicking around (e.g. AntiMac . . . now if only I had that URL!)
However, there doesn't seem to be any reason why GNOME 2.0 couldn't begin to move out of the WIMP mindset for a better one, whatever that will be. As long as you keep the old libraries around, and a well-behaved compatibility layer, all the DE-type integration should continue to work at a useful level (along with the legacy WIMPUI, naturally).
Disclaimer: I know nothing about GNOME's design, only GTK+. So, for anyone in the know, I'd like to ask this: Has the GNOME foundation been engineered to easily accomodate future evolutions (!=WIMP) of GUI design? Or would this be a case where we should want to build up a new codebase, when the time comes?
iSKUNK!
Should be interesting to see how KOffice does. If it lives up to all the good words I've heard about it, that will become the QT app to be reckoned with.
(Will it need kwm to run, btw? I'd be one happy user if it'll work under plain X)
iSKUNK!
whoops . . . make that X+Qt :-]
iSKUNK!
Second, my mom set up her own Novell 3 network (using Arcnet!) in the late 80's. On her own. She set up her own server and clients, and hired a guy to write RDBMS software for her. Then she made it work, and it still works -- absolutely perfectly -- for her to this day. The only reason she has to upgrade is because she's using 386s for terminals, and the non-flashable BIOSes on those MBs aren't Y2K compliant. So it's upgrade time.
She said that since she was going to upgrade, she might as well have a Net connection (so she could work at home and maybe get a web server in house and save some cash). That means she needs a gateway machine. I thought that it would be criminal not to tell her about Linux. So I showed her my Red Hat/KDE laptop, and she loved it. She felt like she could actually use it. Like Unix wasn't just about an arcane command line interface, but that it had some "modern improvements" that could make it more than compete with Win32 systems. She *liked* KDE a lot; it made Linux seem accessible.
That may sound frivilous, but that's *exactly* what it will take to make Linux ubiquitous. She looked at it, and realized that she could use it. It had a Tetris clone, and would run for years without a single reboot. What more could she ask for?
Of course, I'll be able to SSH in to the machine and maintain it, but I suspect that she'll want to as well (and from home even). I haven't foisted anythiing on her, I've merely shown her what Linux could do for her. She thought it was all about a command line interface, and I showed her that it wasn't.
Because of the ease of use of KDE, and because it's so easy for her to install Red Hat, it makes it possible for her to buy the Red Hat 6.0 box at CompUSA and then go put it on her network.
KDE and Red Hat will make it accessible to her, and to the masses as well. That's the Good Thing. KDE helps that transition from Win32 to Linux. I mean, she'll be using Linux because she liked KDE, and she knows that Linux will work well for her. Now she knows that she has a very stable platform which has a friendly interface. This is why I think all the hubbub about KDE and licenses being somehow bad is completely silly.
I didn't mean to write a dissertation, but I wanted to be clear in that Linux was made a choice because of Red Hat and KDE, and integrating the two can only make things better. Nothing is or was being forced upon anyone. She merely knows that she can have a better gateway platform that she can actually use without getting a degree.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
The fact of the matter is that KDE is a pretty decent desktop. Yeah, if you're running a server you probably don't need KDE (or GNOME, for that matter). But for workstations, it's not that bad. And Linux needs to move into the workstation arena before it can really take off. Doing that means having a nice GUI.
KDE is easily installed, usable, fairly stable, mostly customizable, has plenty of apps that take advantage of it's semi-unique features, and looks pretty good. And it beats the shit out of Windows. KDE can be used to win the hearts and minds aof Windows/Mac users because of these attributes.
I'm setting up a gateway machine for my mother in about three months, and I convinced her that Linux was the best choice, over much protestation about how Unix is "...all command line stuff, and I gave that up with DOS." She's very computer literate, but not a Unix user, and had this notion in her head that Linux was, at best, curses-based. So I showed her KDE, and she loved it. I also showed her fvwm and WindowMaker (just to let her know that she did, in fact, have a choice and that this was what Linux was all about) and she was not terribly impressed.
Now another business is going to have Linux as an integral part of it's success. And it's primarily because of KDE (I showed her some uptime figures for Linux vs. NT, and that helped as well...). So how can KDE be bad? In this case at least, KDE has converted one more soul. When she sees that her gateway machine never goes down, and the WinNT clients always have to be rebooted, she'll probably deploy Linux more widely.
And that's a Good Thing. It's what we need.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Come on, world of adult people doesn't work like this. I don't think KDE people are in any way offended by RH's previous refusals to support them. There is nothing personal about it. It is just a business decision for both KDE and RH. As long as I undewrstand this correctly RH didn't support KDE because they thought that KDE was not compliant with their policies regarding the sodtware included in their distro. I have know idea if RH just bent their policies a little or have come to some form of agreement with Troll or KDE team, but apparently they found it possible to provide support to this project.
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
Strange. I have used RH since release 4.2 and I would say that since 5.1 came out I would call it the easiest to install and maintain. SuSe is very close. SuSe is actually on the same level if not better if you switch from Yast to Linuxconf, and straiten your directory tree a little. Debian is good, I have to say that I even like dpkg better then rpm, but the dselect is SO UGLY. Also I am not sure if there is an admin utility in debian analogous to linuxconf. Caldera is really good, but slow to update and expensive. I am not going to even start about how ugly Slackware is.
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
Install Debian. It is a decent distro. Tinker with it for a while. Go ftp.kde.org and get .deb packages. Install Enjoy :)
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
The consistency is good for the developer as well. Shared components take away a lot of coding work, and allow developers to provide uniformity between applications without specifically having to plan for it. It's the same idea as using a standard widget library instead of rewriting one for every application.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the GNOME printing system turns out (I assume KDE has something similar, but I'm more familiar with GNOME). Printing under Unix is almost always a miserable kludge if you're doing anything more complicated than feeding plain text to a printer's default tray. This is one area (I'm referring to the client end, not the server end) where Windows is way ahead of Linux, and I'd like to see it resolved.
Then fix it. Pick up the Harmony project and just f**king fix the problem.
End of story.
--C
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
So pick up Harmony and fix the whole mess. Or don't, and shut up.
Yes, it is _just_that_easy_. You have the source, so go out there and use it!
--C
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Touchy, touchy, touchy!
KDE people DONT want to take the G out of anything. God forbid we would insult your greligion and gbeliefs. The last thing Linux (sorry, Gnulix) needs is political correctness. You can always determine a man's irrational beliefs by what offends him.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Umm, it's been more than 15 years. Unless of course, you define free software in the narrow terms of GNU only. What about BSD, K&R C, etc. This is like saying Christianity didn't begin until the council of Nicea!
Nice try, Richard, but it doesn't wash.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Looks like windows!!! Maybe I'm using a different KDE than you (or a different windows than you). You do realize that you can customize KDE?
You can have a panel+task bar, panel by itself, big, medium and large panel, menus at the top ala mac, win vs motif styled widgets, advance themes, etc, etc.
Everything windows has was ripped off from someone else. By saying it looks like windows, you are in fact saying that it looks like warp/mac/cde. The first time I installed and started KDE, by first thought was, "cooll - looks like WPS".
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Damn. That was some speech. Next time, use a login and get some credit for your thoughts. I agree, freedom has a high price. And if we do not maintain an eye and a voice on what is goin on, we stand to lose that freedom and turn Linux into another proprietary OS same as everything else. And that would be a very sad day indeed.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
I am not so sure you can not do that with Troll Tec's Qt licence. Why not firing an email to them asking them if you can?
Once again Norway is not Redmond. Even if the licence would not cover what you want to do, I am certain they would not bother you if you don't plan to sell your embedded system big time. In the latter case it may just seem fair to give them a little margin on your profit.
I like knotes ;-)
Not a big innovation I admit, but it works fine for me, better then xclipboard.
I think the general thrust of KDE is to get a solid DE that can replace Windoze. No point in getting all innovative if you want to sell it to businesses. They invested in the training on Windoze, so you have to be able to tell them: Look you can make it look and feel like Windoze, you don't have to spend a penny on retraining your employees, you don't have spend anything for the licence. Once Linux "ownes" the desktop people can figure out by them selfes that they can do way cooler things then just running a Windoze clone.
I think the reason that KDE is so Windoze like is exactly for the reasons you gave at the end of your posting. Businesses invested in the training of their employees. That is why you have to be able to tell them: Look you can make it look and feel like Windoze, you don't have to spend a penny on retraining your employees, you don't have spend anything for the licence.
:-)
Once Linux "ownes" the desktop people can figure out by themselfes that they can do way cooler things then runing a Windoze clone. For example KDE 1.1 has some Macish emulation features that you can switch on. Nothing earth-shattering yet, but it shows that the developers are not unaware of this Windoze trap.
The next wave of computing might look completly different anyway. Most wearable computers in academia run Linux. You certainly have different GUI paradigmes there. Who wants to carry a desktop around all day?
As long as it is OpenSource. At least that was my understanding. Correct me when I am wrong.
It is good that the Open Source Community can afford to develop two desktop environments, so that the best technology for a specific purpose can be picked.
All this bickering about licence? Those ppl who painfully point out that QPL is not GPL,
a) Who cares? If that's how you think then presumbaly you only write free software, in which case there is nothing wrong with QPL
b) Troll Tech is actually a company, and need income if they are going to feed and clothe their children, etc. There income is from selling Qt and, to their credit, they've decided they can do without the income from the free-software sector.
I use Qt. So far only for free stuff. However if I want to use it for my employer, my employer will pay for it. I think that is reasonable.
And while I'm having my 2c worth, those RedHat users who are dissapointed by RH's decision, well, don't use KDE. No reason to stop buying RedHat.
- 0x0
I waited and waited for GNOME. when it was releaed I downloaded all 937 RPMs. I finally got it installed in the right order. I ran it. It worked for about 5 mins before it crashed.
I really thought Enlightenment was nice. I thought gnome was cool. I think it was a little premature in it's release. I ended up going back to WIndowmaker & KDE.
Flame Me I'm Irish!!
oops, a day late.
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
Then choose an alternative. Redhat is a company out to make money (ouch, that is a bad word here). Quick, go back and look at all of the things RedHat has done for the "Free Software" movement. Ok, now that you are done, go back and read the QPL. OK, now go back and read the BSD license (which is the best in my opinion). Why does everythin have to be in line wit the GPL? It's just a license. Troll Tech spent alot of time and money developing the libraries. RedHAt spent alot of time and money developing the distribution. Debian spent alot of time (I bet money somewhere) creating thier distribution. Is this the true test for "Open Software", ...If Microsoft bought Troll Tech tommorrow, would KDE exist next week...
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
That's the way I do it. I have two logins, one for GNOME and one for KDE. I can use either one and I can use the other's apps from either one.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
Not that I want to spread FUD, but I downloaded GNOME the other day and tried it. I got 30 some odd RPMs an fiddled with --force and --nodeps to get all of them installed.
I was impressed with GNOME, but I semed like KDE Beta3 from a year ago. I've already gone through enough to take a step back. I've got wok to do and don't want to fight the stability of my desktop. After all, I could just use Windows.
I'm happy with KDE ad quite satisfied with the QPL, though I do prefer the GPL to any other license. Maye RedHat and Corel should just hire the TrollTech guys and make them the Norway division of RH and Corel Advanced Development Labs? Then they could make QT GPL. I really think that having a commercial toolkit has made KDE progress faster. If RH and Corel hired them to write GPL code, we would all benefit.
I'm pretty sure KDE does the same thing. For example, try to open up the Kpanel under Window Maker version 0.20.3- for me, it didn't work.
Still not dead.
Does it really look that much like Windows? I think KDE has it's own look. Sure, a lot of things smells Windows, but then there's also a smell of other desktops (like CDE). Just my opinion.
Anyway, I believe KDE is wm indepentant these days. Think I've seen KDE compliant versions of WindowMaker, IceWM and others.
More important, some months ago some guy posted an url here. There was some sceenshots showing off Qt with a Next theme, surely looked awesome. Maybe someone remember the url, I don't??
This was just some drivel, I'm quite clueless about KDE nowadays. It's been a year since I tried it last time, nor do I use Gnome. I still prefer the clean look of plain good old WindowMaker.
(or were you just trolling?)
The Czar, The King of England, and the Emperor of Austria were all releated in WWI.
Careful with those comparisons!;)
The party's over
- nr
One must atleast respect RedHat's intentions. By contributing to Linux and allowing ANYONE to use their products, their motivation is to allow anyone with a little knowledge to use Linux and not Windows. And if Linux is easier to use, then Redhat and the entire Linux community benefits. An easy-to-use wm substantially decreases the learning curve associated with Linux, so that former Windows users can become expert Linux users more quickly and with less frustration. So even if KDE isn't the best, atleast RedHat has good intentions. Even *if* funding KDE is a bad thing, RH's intention is to make Linux easier-to-use. Which wm they fund has little impact on their bottom-line in the short-run.
'I'm not that great with the RPM and DEB tools for example. What good is my code if I can't package it? '
'I need to be part of a team. I can't do that if all the potential team members go off and use Qt.'
Well with that much yearning to be a part of a team.. maybe you should check out what a team is first. There are countless analogies i could through out on this one, I'll save you the pain of seeing how wrong you are about teams and only list a few. You can write good code, that is great..
the pitcher is great on a baseball team.. but not everyone can pitch.. should we banish pitchers from baseball since everyone cant pitch? Is everyone a quarter back on a football team? In the military they have 'fireteams' when they go patrolling.. does everyone take point and give the signals on what to do? hah.. a could see that.. anyways on a real team.. everyone has heightened skills at one thing or another (maybe packaging in your case) and it's the combined effort of that particular team that counts..
Now go code away, and draft a team memeber that can package for you.
Lookie there, helped the poor man/gal out.. now he/she can be on a team!!!!!!!
Why you should SUFFER??
Did you SUFFER the time, money and the dedication it took to write QT, did you also apply those same things in writing KDE? I'll wager you didn't.
To me you're lazy, you just want everyone else to do the work for you so you can rip it for yourself eh? It's Troll Tech's library/widget set.. they're letting you have the source AND they're letting you make modifications to that source. all they want is YOU to distribute your modifications separate from their source.. if that is such a problem pick up the harmony project, finish it.. and shut up.
Whine... and it's truely funny too.. looky here:
..and im willing to wager that he/she would expect people to PAY for that software that he writes comercially and provides on both unix and win* ... yet he dont feel he should pay another company that wants money for a product they make...
'b) I don't give a [bad word] if Troll Tech emloyees starve, there are far better causes to contribute your hard earned cash'
Isn't that mean? Poor troll kids... but on a more serious note.. this guy/gal is quite the joker.. really funny.. see QPL allows him to make FREE software.. but if he wants to make comercial/proprietary software, he has to pay X$ to Troll tech... cant have that though.. from what i get out of his/her 'rant' looks to me as though he WANTS to make comercial/closed source/proprietary software.. ( you all should be against that right?)
What ever makes you the most money without you having to spend money right? Double standards suck..
I am one of Corel's biggest fans and I think that by refocusing their efforts away from Microsoft, they will have the best chance of providing a powerful office suite for linux. The biggest danger with the KDE/Gnome war is that developers of commercial products (which, IMHO, are necessary for linux to gain desktop marketshare) will use one or the other and users will get stuck with some apps on KDE and some that only run on Gnome. I hope that Red Hat can help the KDE/Gnome developer's standardize on an API/object model/whatever to make apps run on either desktop. Maybe something like wxwindows or some other high level wrapper. (just an idea, not an endorsement) I prefer Gnome to KDE but I will use whatever lets me be productive. I hope that my desktop choice is decided by personal prefs and not by what apps I can run!
I see it like this, new user comes in after they get to see Linux running with KDE or GNOME. Now more users well be using one of these two. So what happens when say KDE gets more popular and devlopers start to develop for KDE only. What I'm getting at here is that we could have another Win98 on a really great Kernel. What if some the KDE devlopers get sloppy and just make the whole thing entirely to bloated and it runs like crap. Then theres a bunch of programs out that only run on KDE and they all run like crap. I'm not saying this well happen but it could happen with of the three (KDE, Gnome, GNUStep).
;)
dead
Don't spread FUD. GNOME is quite useable. KDE is more mature.
I just wish GTK and QT would use the same themes...I want my QT apps to fit in with my pretty GTK apps ;)
...that they'll interoperate. I like GNOME's panel, but if I run a KDE mini-app, I want it to show up in GNOME's panel. (and vice versa) Once that happens, I'll be a very happy man.
The earliest I could get to start writing it is 6 months from now, if I'm lucky. I've already got to finish another GPL'd app I'm writing, I have a lot of studying to do, and I want to write a book. That and trying to juggle a woman, eats up a lot of my time.
Unfortunately, there is no way QT would go GPL. That is how Troll Tech makes their money. There's no doubt in my mind that using a commercial toolkit helped speed up the KDE development. QT is very nice, I enjoy programming with it. However, as a user, I prefer GTK. I'm planning on learning it once I get some free time. Now that GNOME is past the 1.0 mark, things should speed up rapidly. What took so long was they didn't use a nice stable commercial toolkit from the beginning...they built their own. (which, if you ask me, is better in the long run)
okay, clarification for the mentally challenged: juggling TIME to spend with the woman