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Redhat to support KDE developement
belbo writes "According to
a notice on KDE's news page Redhat is now funding two
KDE developers in their efforts to port KDE to the upcoming
open-sourced QT 2.0." Indeed KDE 1.1 is apparently in
Red Hat 5.9. Furthermore, Moritz Moeller - Herrmann
tells us that our ubiquitous friend Kalle Dalheimer announced
to the KDE-dev list that
" KDE was awarded "Innovation of the Year 1998/99" in the category software at a Ziff-Davis event in relation to the CeBIT fair. The other finalists
were Lotus eSuite and Microtest Visual CD. This award is a great achievement of the whole KDE team! Congratulations to all of you! We will provide scanned pictures of the award
and other items we got (like posters and stickers) as soon as possible on the KDE web site."
Finally, Linux Today has a
brand new look and is sporting interviews with people of the
Linux community. In one of them, Corel CEO Micheal Cowpland
reveals that
Corel's open-source GUI will be based on KDE. Please folks,
don't let this good news bring on a flame-war. Many people want
to choose which desktop suits them best: GNOME, GNUStep, KDE
are all worthy contenders.
K:
1. Decent stack-ordered task switching
2. Good desktop switching (if you only use 2 windows)
3. Task manager useful and non-intrusive when 'hidden'
4. Good enough of a file manager
5. Easily configurable
I wouldn't mind a slimmer kde without all of the superfluous stuff as an option.
Plug follows:
-----------------
Anyone want to try my newsreader? Download mp3s, etc off of usenet in the comfort of your own linux:
http://www.geocit ies.com/ResearchTriangle/Forum/3838/dolphin.html
I suppose the use of a GUI depends entirely on what you are doing. Personally, I find text consoles entirely too limited for the tasks I frequently perform. I don't really need an entire screen showing information about cpu usage, 1% is enough. I frequently edit source and track down bugs in a number of files that would be ridiculous to attempt without a quick method of spliting the screen into several sections.
I don't use a machine running linux as a client. I find the client-server model of X very usefull in this respect. Opening even a half dozen telnet sessions would be beyond a hassle. I don't notice much speed difference between X apps and console apps. Granted I'm not running linux on terribly old hardware here (p 233 mmx), but even so I have never really seen a term in X react more slowly than a console. I find the X graphics routines to be fairly efficient as well - sliding a window around in X eats much more CPU time on my windows based P2 266 server than it does on the linux pentium 233 mmx client. (bleh, i'll never get the seemingly reversed client-server association down)
I find RPMs extremely usefull. I used Slackware several years ago and found out what kind of nasty problems can arise when everyone uses a different path for installing things. I don't really NEED to know everything that's going on during an install. Sure, it'd be nice to know, but I just simply don't have to time to be paranoid. Make it install smooth and I'm happy. Quite frankly the time it would take to investigate and analyze every single package that I wanted to install would vastly outweigh the time it would take to recover from even the worst of malicious surprises attached. This isn't to say that there isn't a place for the detailed information. On the contrary, I commend those who take the time to search out problems in the gobs of detail. What I find odd is that so many people think that Company X or Company Y is out to get them. In almost all of the cases, you're simply not important enough for that to be true. Most people don't consider the Pope paranoid for using a bullet proof dome on a vehicle (I heard somewhere that Bill Gates purchased an Armored SUV - regardless of wether he fears linux, it sounds like he fears linux users!), but if you do it, you'll probably be marked as a wacko.
Does the command line let you run Quicken? Which do you think is more likely - an X port of Quicken, or a console port of Quicken?
I find statements like "it looked too much like MS for me to be comfortable with it" oddly distrubing. A rather interesting side-effect of so many linux users being so anti-MS is that MS has as much control over them as it does over the MS loving crowd. It will be interesting when some company forms an unofficial and non-public agreement with Microsoft and has them basicly push customers their way..
all the hard works (15 years of hard works) by many fsf developers, hackers and students to create a utophia(GPL/LGPL) world are now tarnish by a library (QT), a Desktop Development (KDE) and a bunch of i-need-to-get-my-job-done-i-hate-editing-config-fi les-cml-is-so-hard-rms-is-shit-gpl-stupi d-money-is-what-i-want-kde-rulez-who-cares-i-like- tom-gnome-sucks-troll-customers-always-r ight users.
sad...sad...sad...
indeed a sad day.
its just debian left or it's ?
farewell red hat.
the future of linux is RedHat+KDE+QT.
Where do you want to go tomorrow ?
It is now just over 15 years since the beginning of the Free
Software Movement and the GNU Project. We have come a
long way.
In 1984, it was impossible to use a modern computer without
installing a proprietary operating system, which you would have
to obtain under a restrictive license. No one was allowed to share
software freely with fellow computer users, and hardly anyone could change software to fit his or her
own needs. The owners of software had erected walls to divide us from each other.
The GNU Project was founded to change all that. Its first goal: to develop a Unix-compatible portable
operating system that would be 100% free software. Not 95% free, not 99.5%, but 100%--so that
users would be free to redistribute the whole system, and free to change and contribute to any part of it.
The name of the system, GNU, is a recursive acronym meaning "GNU's Not Unix"--a way of paying
tribute to Unix, while at the same time saying that GNU is something different. Technically, GNU is like
Unix. But unlike Unix, GNU gives its users freedom.
It took many years of work, by hundreds of programmers, to develop this operating system. Some were
paid by the Free Software Foundation and by free software companies; most were volunteers. A few
have become famous; most are known mainly within their profession, by other hackers who use or work
on their code. All together have helped to liberate the potential of the computer network for all humanity.
In 1991, the last major essential component of a Unix-like system was developed: Linux, the free kernel
written by Linus Torvalds. Today, the combination of GNU and Linux is used by millions of people
around the world, and its popularity is growing. This month, we announced release 1.0 of GNOME, the
GNU graphical desktop, which we hope will make the GNU/Linux system as easy to use as any other
operating system.
But our freedom is not permanently assured. The world does not stand still, and we cannot count on
having freedom five years from now, just because we have it today. Free software faces difficult
challenges and dangers. It will take determined efforts to preserve our freedom, just as it took to obtain
freedom in the first place. Meanwhile, the operating system is just the beginning--now we need to add
free applications to handle the whole range of jobs that users want to do.
In future columns, I will be writing about the specific challenges facing the free software community, and
other issues affecting freedom for computer users, as well as developments affecting the GNU/Linux
operating system.
>Look how they violate the GPL (QT is not and
> never will be GPL compatible, but they take
> other people's GPLed code and link it to QT).
To my surprise, even before Troll Tech jumped on an Open Source bandwagon there was NO SIGNLE objection from developers about linking their code to QT.
Come on. Stop flaming. It would be understandable if You say : "I object KDE linking _MY_ code to QT". If You speak for other's code than... it's simply not Your business.
May be You simply didn't wrote anything worthwile yet... First DO something -- then engage in POLITICS (if You want)... Otherwise Your thoughts do not have much credibility.
KLM.
Both KDE and GNOME provide:
Session management
CORBA based component programming
High level application print services
High level application dialogs
Additional application services/libraries
Desktop productivity applications
Panel based application menus and virtual workspaces
Desktop themability (goes beyond UI toolkit themability)
Consistent look-and-feel for native applications
That's all you have to do to smear Qt and KDE, right? Just repeat the mantra 'Half-Assed Free License' or some such thing over and over, without bothering to explain why this is the case.
Unfortunately, this ad hominum FUD has been pretty effective - compare the amount of press received by the (premature?) release of GNOME 1.0 with the much smaller amount of attention received by the far more mature KDE 1.1. Sure, GNOME is full of cool ideas, but KDE is ready for the desktops of power users and beginners alike, right now.
I'm sick of this crap. Troll Tech may not have been on board with a 100% Open Source approach from Day 1, but thay have come a long long way in their licensing. As for Qt itself, it has been of top-notch quality right from the beginning. The documentation in particular is superb.
I will use KDE and Qt without apology, assist my Linux-newbie friends in doing the same, and do my best to speak up against anti-KDE FUD. Qt is the best widget set available for Unix, period, and KDE continues to set the pace for the Unix desktop.
-Doug Lay
-too lazy to log in.
KDE is great, but... what innovation?
Yes it is, and it's very nice of them. It still remains GPL incompatible tho. And, no, claiming essential system component about Qt does not hold water, which means you cant get around it that way (or anyone would be able to throw together a linux dist, claim essetial system component about a proprietary library and take whatever GPL code they want).
So, KDE still has to obtain permission to link GPL software to Qt or remove any third party GPL code. I, for one, would take appropriate measures if code under my copyright was linked without permission against a non-GPL compatible library (wether Qt or mfc32 for Linux).
KDE may be further along, i think GNOME has an ace up its sleeve, Netscape 5.0. Netscape 5.0 should be out pretty soon, and it is written in GTK. I would go so far to say that Redhat incurged this since Netscape anncounced that they were using GTK after they made a minor investment into Redhat. If Netscape 5.0 kicks ass I wouldn't be suprised if IBM, and other announce desktop programs in GTK. Another reason GTK is required to run GIMP which a hell of a lot of Linux users have. There is no such killer app in QT. And even if they don't most will when Netscape 5.0 comes out most will get because it will require GTK to run making it even more of a reason to choose GTK, and GNOME.
On a side note, I believe the main reason that Redhat is including KDE is to stop the Redhat spin offs, because they loose money in possible sales and support.
You are correct. There are those who would argue that Qt can be an 'essential system component' and thus be exempt from the requirement. I most certainly do not agree, for a number of reasons, and would pursue any such violation against any of my copyright, if it had been linked without asking permission.
There are only two possibilities, one is Qt becoming GPL compliant (which seems to be impossible, for some reason), or KDE using a modified GPL/other license and asking permission for any third party GPL code.
Over the last 3 days, I have compiled and installed gnome 1.0.3 on my slackware linux box.
/etc/ld.so.conf
/sbin/ldconfig -v after installing
(Yes, contrary to rumor, you can get it to
work with libc5). But
this is the first time I have been able to
compile any gnome release, and on Slackware,
it required extensive interaction on my part.
(Not to mention 3 sleepless nights). For the
compile to work, I had to do the following:
1) `hide' my gimp and gtk1.0.x directories.
(remove these directories from
and remove the path to the binaries. This
was easy for me since I had a separate directory
devoted to gtk and gimp. )
2) Configure each gnome package with
--disable-nls --disable-threads. Use the
package order given on the gnome web page.
3) Run
each package.
Anyway, last night, I finally compiled the
last of the 42 *.tar.gz packs and fired up gnome.
I tested it for what remained of the night.
The following are my observations.
1) Gnome is not as unstable as it is made out
to be. In fact, I could not get it to crash
even once in 3 hours. (Of course, it is possible
that I did not get to the unstable parts.)
2) Gnome reputation for "good looks" is, unfortunately, completely undeserved.
This is not a troll, people. I am serious.
I had great expectations of Gnome, as the one
thing that I kept hearing consistently on the
newsgroups is how good it looks. And the screenshots on the gnome web site
The reality is that Gnome looks and feels far
worse than KDE does. For instance, the icons are big and blocky and look amateurish. The whole thing has a clunky feel.
Surprised, I went back to the gnome site to
check out the snapshots. And lo and behold,
I noticed several things I had not seen before.
Strip the screenshots of the background images
and color schemes and my observations still hold.
Clunky icons and poor placements of the same.
People who love windowmaker won't
have any problems with this, since big blocky
icons are a feature of that famous desktop.
Anyway, this is quite disappointing... I don't
know if these icons are a temporary thing or are
going to be a permanent fixture of gnome. I hope
not.
If there are any slackware users out there who
need help with any stage of compiling and installing gnome, drop me a line.
Hari.
gharikumar@iname.com.
Exactly!
I admin a network which has GNOME, KDE and WM+xterm users. I don't care which one they use - as long as I can set up mime types and new applications in a uniform manner.
Currently, I can't - I've set up a KDE Application link, and MimeType links, for Applixware, but GNOME doesn't use them. Until there's a uniform way of doing things like this, we can't expect commercial software to use it, and hence we can't expect things to 'just work' when we click on them.
Hopefully, with RedHat (or indeed anyone) taking an active part in development of both, this will be fixed quite quickly.
Has anyone done QT-emulating C++ bindings for GTK, and a QT-like theme? :)
So, start writing code to do it. Sitting back and just wishing doesn't get anything done. You could start simply by writing a program that converts the files to a format the other can use. Then move on to writing code within both to allow them to use the other's format.
Some of the best programs started out by just being a program one person wanted, and then millions of others found useful too. Worldwide popularity is all that can come of it.
The irritating thing about this discussion is the assumption that we all have to have a 'desktop'. I sympathized a great deal with the fellow who wanted some assurance that WMs like WM were not going to be penalized- unfortunately the answer was basically, 'Don't worry- Window Maker has been assimilated!' What about the window managers which take an old school approach without paying attention to KDE? Are we looking at apps which penalize those in some cosmetic way, not at all (just adding hooks to KDE additions) or actual required functionality that forces you to use something that goes along with the KDE api?
Again, the thing that gets me is this- if I want a desktop I have MacOS. It's not going to go bad on me, it doesn't typically crash or exhibit bugs on me, and yet I am also dualbooting Linux. If I wanted to play with the Windows notion of what a desktop is, I could just run a Windows emulator, of which there are several. I'm not remotely impressed with either KDE or Gnome's featuresets or what's being offered- isn't this rather going against the grain of what Unix grew from, and doing it in a relentlessly Windows-like way to boot? I'd really contest the assumption that this is in any way necessary.
For years, secretaries and low paid clerical workers learned DOS, and didn't have too much trouble with it. Nobody figured that they were therefore brilliant computer geeks- they just learned to use the computer. Linux has the same potential for acceptance on its own terms, and doesn't seem to be trying for that at all- instead all the attention is largely on large-scale efforts to reproduce the way Windows works, evidently on the assumption that Microsoft's judgement and design sense is better than anyone else's out there, and that Windows is in fact the ultimate computer operating system that can only be imitated, never varied from. To innovate you evidently have to add more widgets to the total list of everything Windows already has, otherwise it doesn't count.
I seriously contest that assumption. It's understandable- really, really huge sums of money have been spent in a concerted, over and under-the-table effort to put across the idea that that _is_ the truth. It's also a bad assumption and is blocking attempts to evolve newer interfaces, for example interfaces that take elements _out_ rather than just always adding more elements towards a baroque frenzy of incomprehensible helpfulness.
I know I direct my attention towards having my Linux box be _different_ from my Mac side... I don't want a desktop, and the last thing I need is a taskbar- even on MacOS I can remember what I'm doing. I set up Linux with Window Maker and in fact took to using the clip for even more data hiding- now the startups for various apps are localized in workspaces. A GUI desktop is all very well but doing it properly is very complicated, and there is no reason to assume Windows is the canonical example of doing it properly... the obsessive interest in KDE and Gnome (regardless of how well or poorly they interoperate with each other and with other systems) suggests that nobody is willing to suggest that the desktop metaphor, in specific the _Windows_ desktop metaphor, isn't the only way people can use computers, and most notably is not necessarily the easiest approach for newbies!
Well, consider it suggested... people need extensive training to run Windows boxes, and even then they are frightened venturers into the weird regions of their own computers. People do _not_ rush to Windows boxes and immediately prance merrily about operating controls- in fact the opposite happens, they get shellshocked and become pitiably nervous and spooked and require lots of reassurance when talked through things. It _is_ the interface that causes this behavior.
Surely we can do better than that?
It needs to be compatible with the GPL, because KDE is licensed under the GPL. Since the QPL is not GPL-compatible, linking KDE with Qt remains illegal.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I'm not the one violating licenses, so I have no obligation to fix anything. They need to fix their own licensing mess, since they're the ones that created it in the first place.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I wasn't aware that the KDE license had been changed to the LGPL. When did this happen? Was permission for the license change received from all the copyright holders of the third-party GPL code the KDE team has used?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I understand that the new QPL is indeed a Free Software license, but is it GPL compatible? Since KDE is licensed under the GPL, if the QPL is not GPL compatible, linking KDE with Qt would be illegal, would it not? IIRC, a license requiring patches is incompatible with the GPL, so this remains the case.
The easiest solution I can see is that KDE could either change the license to LGPL, or provide an exemption for Qt. However, this would require the acquiescence of all the copyright holders of all the GPL'd code they've used.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Isn't that what GNOME is?
Posted by fieldmarshallburrito:
John Dvorak's just said it: "The heir to windows is a gentrified Linux". The mainstream press is starting to crack. As soon one of the big computer vendors lets you order a pre-configured linux box with your choice of KDE or GNOME, then it's all over for "Alpha Borg" Bill Gates.
Posted by stodge:
Am I the only person who thinks the GTK widget set is ugly? And I do think that KDE looks too much like Windows, but in an inoffensive way. They could have been a bit more creative (not necessary in eye candy, eh Enlightenment?).
Posted by stodge:
:)
I agree. Personally I hate messing with themes. Do themes waste CPU cycles?? I'd rather have something I prefer to use out of the box. I'm lazy!
Stodge in disguise.......
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
/. to delete comments but not OK for the FSF to ask programmers to use a particular license?
No, just plain ethical.
BTW, why is it OK for
If the GNUstep GNUrus can't be bothered to answer this question, why should I be bothered to look into GNUstep for using it or for developing apps? They can't even be bothered to fix their mailing-list page.
If it could be gotten to work, I'm sure it would be a worthy addition to the toolkit/environment flame^H^H^H^H^Hwars. But as it is, it seems (to this outsider) to be no more than an ineffectual quilting-bee.
Flames welcome. I'd like to learn more.
--
--
=8^
Noteworthy changes in version `0.5.5' =====================================
NOTE that the X/DPS backend is not supported at all in this release. Hopefully it will be fixed up in the next release.
Thanks for the heads-up. Back to the quilt, GNUrus...
--
--
=8^
Besides, 10G disks are breaking the $200 barrier now....
Craig
But whether it is or not, it's a useful example of the mindset that makes many of us dislike the GPL and gives us the uneasy feeling that it may have outlived its usefulness -- particularly in an age where trial lawyers bicker about what the meaning of "is" is and legislatures believe that no area of human interaction is safe against their interference.
The mere fact that some clown would be clueless enough to prattle about "all true Linux users" shows that the grownups in this movement -- who really do constitute the majority -- have a lot of educating to do.
Craig
Yep, the automount program and filemanager features are very convenient. But you have to bear in mind why they're necessary, and why they're separated from the OS core: Unix is a multiuser system, so anything that would change the operating environment for everyone at once requires root privileges, whether it's changing the CD or editing XF86Config.
If automount were built into the OS it would provide an endless source of security headaches for Linux as a server -- and just picture what a nice little office system could be set up with a central Alpha or high-end Pentium running apps for a dozen or so old 486s being used as X terminals; a cost-effective, flexible all-Linux installation. But automount under those circumstances would be a pretty awful idea....
Craig
Fortunately KDE and GNOME will be interoperable in this fundamental way in the next releases, Qt 2 will support wheel mice, key accelerator conventions seem to be getting more uniform, and so on. KWrite is very, very nice and Gnumeric seems to be almost mature enough to replace Wingz -- and all flame wars aside, either GTK+ or Qt is an enormous improvement -- both in code quality and freedom -- over Motif.
(My personal favorite desktop at the moment is either IceWM or XFCE with wmppp, NEdit, and of course a dozen xiterms. Ain't choice great? Check out www.x11.org when you get bored ....)
Craig
It will be fascinating to see to what extent the NGLayout engine can be adapted to kfm -- that could make for a dynamite combination.
It's a great year to be a hacker. I'm looking forward to it.
Craig
No, because it is the only license that perpetuates the FSF concept of freedom at the expense of a concept of freedom held by many other people.
"Freedom" is too important a word to allow it to be exclusively defined by one person or organization.
Craig
It's an old saying in many philosophical movements that you need to be more careful of your friends than of your enemies, for the simple reason that outsiders are more likely to judge your whole movement -- unfairly, of course, but that's the way it is -- more by what your friends do and say than by what your enemies do and say.
Now, for every person who carefully reads and absorbs the well-reasoned arguments at www.fsf.org/philosophy (I disagree with many of their conclusions, but they are rational and well-thought-out), several dozen will see this sort of adolescent foolishness. This is one reason why I'm somewhat disappointed that more adult GPL advocates don't try more actively to discourage this kind of mindless post. (On the other hand, they may realize that it's a hopeless undertaking.)
Craig
>THIS IS NOT LEGAL.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
Licensing issues are civil matters. To bring suit, you would need to show harm. You would also need to have acted consistently with the license. Any judge with half a brain would say, "You worked on this project in full knowledge of how it would be used and distributed, and yet you still claim damages when it is used in that fashion? Get out of my courtroom."
Now, if you submitted code to a different project which was then pulled into KDE, then you have a case. But if this doesn't describe you, STFU!
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Go play outdoors for a while, maybe go hiking or fishing. Honestly sometimes I think the opinions of the fanatic slashdot posters were spun from the migranes caused by intence spin of there out of balance monomeniacle lives.
~ ^~~^~
Redhat did something cool. They enabled choice, choice (not liscences) offers the ammunition for freedom. There choice enables us to make choice. Celebrate be happy, then decide if you will use it or not. (BTW its known as a contribution, unlike slashflame opinions.)
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~~
I think this was a great strategic move on redhat's part.. In a single bound, they've kept toward their stance on Open Source[tm] software, and diffused one of the biggest rough spots that would push newbies toward Bero/Mandrake or SuSE.
;)
Perhaps this will foster something like a compatiblity layer between gnome/kde apps, too.
All this hiring reminds me of different countries' royal families intermarrying in feudal europe, btw..
what do you think he wrote the software for
--
Michael Hasenstein
http://www.csn.tu-chemnitz.de/~mha/
I believe the code to support kde was introduced from 0.50 onwards. If you update, you shold have no problems.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal." - Supertramp, The Logical So
The thing is, KDE and GNOME are not window managers. The even better news for you is that WindowMaker supports both KDE and GNOME. So all you need to do to run KDE or GNOME applications is to install the libraries, you can keep using WindowMaker as your window manager.
So even though KDE's default window manager is kwm, and GNOME's defaul is enlightenment, neither forces you to use that particular window manager to use that desktop environment.
So having Red Hat back KDE as well as GNOME is really a win/win thing.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal." - Supertramp, The Logical So
It's scary! ;-)
s ort=alpha
http://kde.themes.org/gallery.shtml?show=51-75&
...I don't. I don't plan on having one.
I can't afford one, even.
Why should those who don't own macs be deprived of a friendly GUI?
If you believe the MAC UI is good, why is it bad to use it as inspiration?
Finally: "we can do better?" what we is that?
What have you done to be part of the "we"?
(I mean besides flaming me in the past)
These questions are pretty easy to ask, but quite difficult to answer. None of the developers are claiming to be revolutionizing human-computer interaction. They're just trying to bring Linux up to the state of the art.
Contrary to your claims, people have been suggesting for years that the desktop metaphor isn't the only or best UI model. It's just that nobody has suggested a replacement which is clearly better. People are working on desktop environments because we basically know how to build a desktop environment. Nobody knows how to build the environment of the future, or even what it is.
Of course. But KDE and GNOME don't interoperate. They share a display, but not a clipboard, visual appearance, etc.
It's great that they're supporting two desktops. In fact they should support several different desktops. Part of what makes OSS so cool is that you have tons of choices. I think RH is putting for some fairly serious effort towards giving back to the community which made them possible.
preach on brother! amen!
seriously..
One thing that I found that is kindof nifty, on my system at least, is to run individual gnome components under windowmaker. I have my windowmaker autolaunch panel and gmc on launch,
[snip]
panel was something I was impressed with. What all did you have to have installed gnome-wise to get Gnome's panel working?
"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
--James Madison
seriously now
perhaps we should find a law firm or sympathetic legal expert who could evaluate all these zillion licenses, as well as their (in)compatibility
it's not that I don't trust Bruce, ESR, and RMS, but they all have the tendency to talk about the foundation before the concrete is poured
software licenses need more than peer review, they need legal examination
the artistic license especially underscores this
is the rumor true that KDE and GNOME can run at the same time on the same DISPLAY= ?
if that is the case then we can all really shut up
I'm hoping the Redhat 6.0 install will have a
window which asks "check the desktop environments
you would like to install", allowing you to install either, neither, or both KDE and GNOME.
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
i've had this set up for ages.
:)
i don't use kde, but i need the more familiar behaviour of kdm for some of the users. You can choose between openlook, fvwm95, windowmaker, KDE,
staroffice and quake with the sessiontype box.. cool.
works well, and the newer versions of it support PAM aswell.
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
I'm glad to see Red Hat finally embrace KDE after flip-flopping on the issue so much. After all, KDE is the only truely usable GUI for Linux. Gnome, Englightenment, whatever may be nice but they have a long way to go yet. KDE is usable now, and has an interface that users will be comfortable with.
I just wish that Red Hat would become more concerned about security and make Red Hat 6.0 as solid as possible. Perhaps they could fund a project to close security holes in the Linux code?
Michael.
...all of the features that you mentioned that you like in KDE are in WM as well. Plus, WM has a few WONDERFUL features that I haven't seen anywhere else (like ALT + drag to move/resize).
I ran KDE for a while (back in the Beta 2 days). I like that it's clean, modern, and friendly to people coming from Windows. But then I found WM and there was no going back (though I still use a few of the nifty little K apps). I need to take a close look at KDE 1.1 and see what all has changed.
--Lenny
I believe you're referrign to MDI. They stink!
Eudora and Pegasus at work use them, I find them
completely constricting. I think it was a BIG
MISTAKE for KDE to use these in ANY of their apps.
Once the main installation was done, getting KDE going took about five minutes :).
**huge round of applause***
I'm not familiar with the details of OpenDoc, so I don't know how useful that stuff (which I infer isn't OpenDoc in its entirety) would be outside the environments they mention.
This is perhaps better stated as
I.e., disable automount on a server, perhaps, but don't prohibit users from putting it on their own single-user desktop machine.
And the reason why automounting a floppy disk is bad, and manually mounting it is not bad, is? (NOTE: automount and autorun aren't the same thing. Automount would be something like "if you refer to something under /floppy, and there's a floppy disk in the drive that /floppy is set up to automount, and that disk isn't currently mounted, mount it on /floppy." Autorun, for a floppy drive, would be something like "if the machine detects that a disk has been put into the floppy drive - which, on a PC, would probably involve polling the floppy drive - mount it and run autorun (or whatever) on the root directory, if it exists.")
I didn't, either, but AltaVista Is Your Friend; I eventually found this Linux Weekly News page, which said, near the bottom:
The KDE folks addressed this by using the LGPL.
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
So, it's time for the KDE-haters to stop.
Like the GPL, Qt is free for use with free software only. Proprietary software needs a different license.
Gnome has its libraries LGPL-ed, and is thus OK for both free and proprietary software.
I still like Gnome and run it at home, but there is nothing wrong with Qt's license now.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I haven't managed to make it crash either but I have gotten a lot of odd behaviour, especially when using the control center to change window managers. It's hard to know who's at fault (i.e. to whom the bug report should be sent) when you have all these different GUI things interacting behind the scenes, many of which have 0.X version numbers.
MDI is the worst piece of crap ever invented. It was designed for Windows 3.0 to try to prevent inactive applications from swapping in. It serves NO OTHER PURPOSE!!!! Get that through your thick skull!
Unfortunately due to MDI Windoze has broken the UI by making windows "click to the top" even if you try to pick a menu item or click a button in them. This error existed in X once upon a time (in X9 I believe) and was fixed. That was only 15 years ago so I guess MicroSoft has not caught up.
PLEASE NO MDI! Thank you.
kpanel -no-KDE-compliant-window-manager
How about that? It would be nice if they documented that. Actually it would be even nicer if they just detected this fact, surely they can check to see if their own window manager is running!
I wrote a window manager (flwm) and tried to get kde apps to run under it and everything seems to work except kpanel. I'll try this switch soon.
Hey, some of us poor, misguided souls actually like olvwm. Of course, most of us work on suns, and only have CDE as an alternative...
Having olvwm at home gives me a consistant interface no matter where I am.
The big reason I like olvwm is that it doesn't do any of these fancy things that kwm, enlightenment or whatever do. It stays out of my face until I ask it for something.
--
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
The GPL doesn't require him to distribute the code at large. He only has to provide the code to the people to whom he distributes the embedded system.
Ok, now all we need is a nice XDM-based desktop chooser system, so you can easily choose between window managers/user environments, using the Xsession system. I had the KDM setup for a while to do something like this, and it was very nice. If that came with redhat by default, it would make beginners able to use the system right off, as easily as win95. The system boots right into KDM or whatever and the user is off.
The only intelligent arguements against KDE were against the QT libs. I to am against Prop. Libs.
BUT QT is NOW free. So there really shouldn't be any arg's left.
I think this is a great move for the Linux community. Though I hope they keep up with Gnome devel, because I personally didn't like using KDE (but hey that is just personal preference).
Awesome!
They're giving you choice. Now they're giving you the choice of running KDE _or_ Gnome.
They realize that dividing the community is a very bad move and it would hurt the efforts at making Linux have a decent desktop environment, our biggest challenge right now.
I can get
Developers in the end will choose what environment to code in, and it is up to them what license they want to use.
Please, stop spouting that bull. You make all Debian users look bad with unfounded assertions and stupidity like that.
Ben
For the longest time, I used FVWM. Not pretty, not easy to configure (I prefer immediate visual feedback), but perfectly usable. I recently decided I wanted something prettier, and something that would display a nice clock and battery meter off to one side. Because of some questions surrounding the licensing underlying KDE, I decided to go with WindowMaker. I'm happy.
However, when looking over KDE, I noticed that some apps are "enhanced" for special features KDE has. Forgive my naivate, but I thought the whole point of Xwindows was to allow apps to run under any window manager, and they would all look and work (more or less) the same.
So. With a major contributor like Red Hat backing KDE, will people like me currently using WindowMaker find themselves needing to switch to KDE because of all the apps tailored to it? I don't really have anything against KDE at this point, but WindowMaker works fine, and if, in the grand scheme of things, I shouldn't have to use a particular window manager, I'd prefer not to switch.
Are my concerns unfounded?
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
BTW, it was at about the same time as the QPL 1.x white paper that Red Hat dropped CDE since they decided it is a basic technology and that they (Red Hat) were not allowed to fix security bug.
As far as any company that I know of goes, Red Hat has a true philosophy beyond making a buck. For that, I thank them.
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Shallow? The whole issue is that Red Hat thinks the "standard" platform should come with source code that can be fixed.
If a security problem with CDE, companies like Sun, IBM, and HP...
There was a security problem and Red Hat was at the mercy of an unresponsive vendor to wait for a Linux fix.
Where's the hypocrasy? Remember, the issue Red Hat had was that the Qt 1.x license was not compatible with all the GPLd code used in KDE and that Qt 1.x did not allow the redistribution of fixes.
Red Hat pays people to write GPLd code, what a bunch of bastards...
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Does your PnP modem allow you to disable the PnP "feature" and just set it for a specific port? Also, not trying to be a smartass, but are you sure that it is not a winmodem?
Also, Enlightenment is alpha software at best! It isn't even feature complete. It is currently at version 0.15.4, note the *0*. I like Linux, but it isn't for everyone. Neither is windows or MacOS or OS/2, Plan9, QNX, FreeBSD, dos, etc..
If you never use Linux just because of modem trouble, you may be missing a chance to learn about something that could be a powerful computing tool for you. There are several redhat newsgroups where you could probably find much friendly, useful help.
Good Luck
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Get the hell over it. How about we call the merging BANAIP (Bitch About Naming AFTER Integration, Please).
:P
I don't have problem giving the GNU project credit where credit is due. The acronym was just something I made up off the top of my head
I've put my money where my mouth is - forked out cash for books on QT, CORBA, and all kinds of other interesting topics. I'll be working towards integration. I hope those who quibble about a silly issue like name will be willing to do the same.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
I'm all in favor of this. It's good for Red Hat -- they get a mature, functional desktop now (KDE) and later (GNOME). They don't pick sides, they just produce a good distribution.
Anyway, I'd really love to see GNOME and KDE come together over a few solid issues. One of these is CORBA. Hot damn that stuff gives me wood.
Universal drag-n-drop plus universal theme support will virtually ensure a seamless blending of the two desktop systems.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
"Freedom of choise is what you've got,
Freedom from choise is what you want." - Devo
I started writing just such a beast. I have some signal/slot stuff working. It still relies on the
Troll moc precompiler, but that is no longer an
issue with 2.0. It will run some of the Qt tutorial, (read: needs lots of work). I was hoping to take some of the Harmony code for the non-visual classes. The biggest problem I've found so far is that QWidget can be directly instantiated and acts like a fixed widget in gtk, and it may be inherited as well.
If anyone is interested I can release the code, it's just sort of a fun hack for me currently.
Brian
QT 2.0 is free too.
You never give up, do you ? They asked for it by making their toolkit Open Source. Yeh, they really deserve to be punished for that.
Redhat did nothing wrong. They just said they couldn't include Qt in the base distribution, and wouldn't include KDE because of that. Its fair enough, really, isn't it ?
Qt and KDE are free. Even RMS says so.
How ?
You 'suffer' from restrictions on what you can do with other people's code anyway. The purpose of the OSD is not to allow you to behave like a spoiled little brat, but to give you a certain minimum level of freedom. If you want more, you might benefit by being polite to the people who might give it to you.
You can use Qt. Its free. You've done nothing to substantiate your main point, which is that you think being asked to distribute patches separately from the originals is an imposition.
Its not a half-arsed free license. It is a free software license. It preserves your freedom to modify the source and distribute the changes. I'm not going to accept his mud-slinging because its precisely this kind of person who gives us all a bad name as a bunch of fanatical uncooperative loonies.
The GPL was written with input from lawyers, and RMS regularly consults legal volunteers (at least one of which is is highly respected law professor specializing in intellectual property) when questions come up. So, when RMS talks about licensing conflicts, it is based on review by highly skilled legal talent (for example, on the MPL/GPL incompatibility problem).
ESR and Bruce Perens have, I think, both shot from the hip a bit too much on license issues (Eric is too quick to say that the OSD is satisfied, Bruce has sometimes been too quick to say that there are problems).
If you mean Windows-style MDI interface, where the "internal" window looks like a normal window, but is embedded in an application frame, then I'd say.... NO! DON'T GO THERE!
;)
IMHO, it's a horrible piece of UI, and anyone advocating it should be short. JMHO
-- i will protect you from ideals to save you from defeat
Or, you could play the game that I am right now. Running Window Maker 0.51.2 (with KDE/Gnome support compiled in) and the panel from Gnome 0.99.something. The KDE panel works just as well with the recent Window Maker releases.
KDE mode? What they hell is that?
KDE apps work in any window manager, as long as you have qt and the KDE libs. The same is true of GNOME, you need gtk, glib, and all the GNOME libs for GNOME apps to run.
The reason they rewrote so many apps is 1) Consistant look and feel (This is one of the biggest criticisms launched against Unix) and 2) interoperability. You can't drag a Postscript file from kfm into ghostview, but you can to kghostview.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Even though WM supports KDE, mixing the two is like fingernails on a chalkboard. KDE has a flat, cartoonish apperance, whereas WM is big on gradients, and gradients everywhere.
This is not a criticism of either, I use both, I just don't think that they mix.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
;^)
I don't think the projects will merge, but hopefully interoperability will be the goal
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
The real shame is that they won't use perfectly good software because they have a minor grip about the license. Hell, even RMS said that the QT's QPL is acceptable, although not perfect.
What's worse is that they demand that distro's ship with crappy software as long as the licenses' are pristene. For instance "xv" is a good image tool that Red Hat USED to ship, now it's missing from the Red Hat 5.x apparently because of Red Hat's recent "free software" shift. Instead I get something called "ee" which is inferior, can't do half of what xv can, but at least the license is pure!
Maybe it's time for me to switch to SuSe.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Huh?
Anonymous Whiner: Wah! Wah! you bullys, QT is not free
Troll: What? We give you the source and you don't have to pay us if you write free software with it.
AW: Doesn't matter, When Microsoft buys you, they will control Linux, *Sniff* Wah!
TT: Ok, we'll create the free QT agreement, if we get bought out or go out of buisness, QT goes BSD license.
AW: Wah! Wah! Not good enough, I want to know that I can change the source code, Unlike the software *I* write, QT is probably full of security holes.
TT: Ok, QT is our bread & butter, but we're going to create the QPL, which will allow you to make changes, just as long as they are in patch form.
AW: Wah! That does it! Your QPL killed the Harmony project. Now you're asking for it! We're going to change KDE to make it use a patched QT to teach you a lesson you big meanies!
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
They dropped CDE after the QT incident. Myself, and probably many others sent them email accusing them of hypocrasy.
Since CDE is the standard desktop of the Unix world, the "Security" thing is a shallow excuse. If a security problem with CDE, companies like Sun, IBM, and HP would be affected, companies much bigger than Red Hat. They would get it fixed.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Why do you need two logins? I have a simple .wm_style file which holds the name of the Window Manager/Desktop Environment that I want to run.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
I'm hoping that Redhat asks which keys you want to use for backspace and delete. I'm sick of having to fix this every time I install.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
When you create drawers and start popping in monitors and applets, they stretch the menus in horrible looking ways. At least WindowMaker keeps it's dock applets the same size.
Also those tooltips-- Ugh! (The smoke ones)
They look cool at first, but quickly get in the way.
And how can you disable tear-off menus? I hate tear-offs. It seems that you can customize everything else.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
That's great if you have the time to do all that
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Who cares? If you have a problem with a package being not up to your standards, just "rpm -e" it.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Unfortunately this person ripped it righo out of rms's new column on linuxworld. "In future columns" come on bud if you are going to blatantly pagarize a document atleast put it in context. You suck you act like you want free software for the love but then you rip rms's thoughts without giving credit of all people.
Grow up...
Douglas Calvert
Bruce, you should save your breath. The FSF jihad will never stop, because their viewpoint is essentially theological, and they have made conformity to the GPL into a pseudo-ethical issue.
It is a crusade for them, like the Crusades of old: "Use the GPL, or we'll verbally destroy you!!!" They're not worth the time or energy. You can't argue with zealots.
BTW: If my first reply to this was censored: Yes, Slashdot has the right to do so. I admit that, and have no problem with it. But as far as I'm concerned it also shows the lengths to which the FSF jihad is willing to go to "win" in its holy war against all those who have the temerity to question the jihad.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
My conclusion is that though Bruce is strongly in favor of free software, he's willing to accept non-GPL free licenses. Some folk seem incapable of doing that, and they're really the target of my screed.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
No I didn't. I said he is willing to accept non-GPL free licenses. Read my post again. Clearly the fact that he declares the QPL to be a free license means he can accept it, even if he personally prefers some other license. And Microsoft's EULA is not something that anyone would reasonably construe as a "free" license.
The QPL is a free license unless your definition of "free" is that of the FSF jihad. The fact that you must pay for Qt if you wish to develop commercial software with it has no impact whatever on the nature of the QPL...unless, of course, your interest is free beer rather than this "free speech" I hear so much about?
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Good post! Unfortunately, the FSF jihad doesn't share your reasonable opinion.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
BTW, why is it OK for /. to delete comments but not OK for the FSF to ask programmers to use a particular license?
Okay, I'll admit that "pseudo-ethical" wasn't the best choice of words. Instead, try this: The FSF jihad claims that free software is an ethical issue, and that is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life. GPL-ed code is no more ethical in and of itself than proprietary code.
There, is that any clearer?
I have no problem with the GPL. I have no problem at all with a programmer choosing to use ANY license he wishes for his software -- even if it's proprietary. What I object to is the ridiculous idea (argued for by the FSF jihad literally every time licensing issues come up here on Slashdot) that the GPL is the only moral license one can use for free software. This is bogus. It is laughably, pathetically false.
This is not to say that the GPL is necessarily completely bad (though the "viral" aspects of it might be legitimately disliked by some). My point is that the GPL is ONE free license. It's not the ONLY one, and may not even be the BEST one, and it's CERTAINLY not the only moral one -- despite the ravings of the jihad.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
You don't have to do anything. That's the beauty of it. You don't like it? Don't use it.
This has nothing to do with whether it's free or proprietary, and really all code except public domain code is "proprietary": someone owns it, and they have released (or not released) it under certain terms. Sometimes the terms are more liberal (the BSD license); other times they are stricter (the GPL); and still other times they require patches.
You don't own GPL-ed code. You never have. You never will unless it's code of your own. It's free to use as the author dictates. Same with Qt.
If you don't like it: don't use it. My, that's simple, isn't it? Choice is a beautiful thing. It's a shame the FSF jihad refuses to see that.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
This is terrific. I'm glad to see Redhat follow this mature line of behaviour this can only help to improve free software and grow the free *nix community.
Well done Redhat.
Actually I would say that attempting to limit users choice to a single desktop environment by black marketing to be Microsoft like behaviour.
Funding two desktops is good for users as it ensures alternatives exist. It makes good business sense too. KDE has never been healthier, if Redhat had ignored it then they would have limited themselves to creating a second rate distribution and risked losing their position as market leader.
Futhermore Redhat supporting both KDE and GNOME improves the likelihood of these two DEs providing interoperable object models.
OpenLook, CDE, command line, and in my case, KDE now. Now if I could only get it to grok the multiheaded display thing...
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
KDE already is themable. see http://kde.themes.org.
But there are also many different look and feel options. Have you used any GUI besides windows ? The way I have KDE set up, it looks and feels more like CDE than it does windows.
Cheers,
-- DOnovan
BTW, you can get all the KDE apps under WM. To get the panel , use kpanel -no-KDE-compliant-window-manager To get the file manager (which makes a nice solid lightwieght web browser ) , use kfm -w Of course, you can use all of the apps and utilities as long as you have kdelibs , kdesupport and QT installed. cheers, -- Donovan
Choice is always a good thing.
Thanks Redhat.
~Grell
A child of 5 could understand this. Fetch me a child of 5!
...when it gets down to fundamentals, do what you have to do and shed no tears. Dr. Matson in Tunnel in the Sky
Back to KDE, though? Nope. Too slow for me. Someone said "Yeah... it really wants 64 meg or it thrashes a lot."
I decided I don't want a "desktop environment" for now. So I'm back to Window Maker and some well-configured menus for general use. It's sort of nice. I reclaimed a lot of HD space and my machine acts like the speedy thing it is.
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mphall@cstone.nospam.net
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mphall@cstone.nospam.net
"A horse laugh is worth a thousand syllogisms"
i've tried disabling the PnP feature of the modem and setting it directly but even if so it still doesn't connect right... still a long delay before anything gets through... 20-30 seconds... makes minicom really frustrating :-)
:-)
its a diamond supraexress - i returned a winmodem to get it actually... i've gotten this (well, the other one i've got) to work with linux before... maybe i should just swap it for my parent's modem (the old one)? hmmm..
i know, but hell, even with windows ill run beta software (i was one of those insane people that ran memphis until IE4 was integrated and i frequented betanews.com all the time)
i've tried the redhat groups... maybe i'll try again... its rather frustrating waiting for responses but noone really helps me in #linux on efnet either though... oh well, i'll keep on muddlin though it
8Complex
windows stole a LOT of its gui from mac's... so hmmmmmmmmm... if anything kde is its own stolen and rewritten version of the mac os... as much as i hate to say that too cause i use windows so much... lol :-)
8Complex
what about enhancing things like PnP (I've had redhat 5.2 installed for 3 months now... i STILL can't get my modem to work under it cause it won't assign it correctly - hence i never use linux, a wasted 1.2 gig right now)
:-)
;-)
and how about enhancing the ease of installation of things? anyone try installing enlightenment? its a COMPLETE BITCH.. download these 17 rpm's then go download 7 more that need upgrading before you can install some others... which break dependencies of other things you need to upgrade... its retarded. when did the word UPGRADE lose all its meaning???
and how about configurability? you know, having every little thing in seperate text files isn't so bad... its the whole idea that you can't FIND them and there is no central config panel for everything... control-panel only does so much, linuxconf (linuxconfig?) only does so much (and is buggy as hell) - granted its still all better then the "registry"
so really, who gives a shit that they're backing a desktop environment when what they need to do is a little bit of restructuring of the OS? get with it people... and help me get my god damn modem working while you're at it
8Complex
May you flame to your hearts' content... I will only learn from them.
Before reading the rest of this post, go back and read all the posts by Bruce Perens. I think he's said it about 3 or 4 times now.
KDE is cool. So will GNOME be when it's ready. From the screenshots, Enlightenment looks like the best-looking.
I've been running KDE 0.99 since 12/11/1999 and it hasn't crashed on me once. I haven't even bothered to upgrade because I have no need to. My girlfriend, a Windoze user, loves it so much that she'd rather log on to my Linux box than Windoze now.
I'm looking forward to the day when Linux users stop sounding like whiney Mac users and stop bickering over stupid shit like this.
the beauty of linux is that it doesn't have to be anything. you'll have the choice of GUIs, or if you want, no GUI. that's up for you to set up. as for the average user nowadays, they want something easy to use.
i'm looking forward to corel's linux. it will have everything set up for you and all you'll have to do is turn the power on and log in. you'll have your kde-like desktop and your office suite waiting for you. that perfectly suits the average user, like my folks or my girlfriend. if we could pull them away from microshaft, more power to kde or gnome or whatever bells and whistles GUI it took to do that.
i personally use vi still to write everything, and i'm more comfortable with the command line than some icon you push and hope it works. that's my choice. in a selfish respect, i'm looking forward to the day any moron could use a computer, because when something goes wrong, i could charge him an arm and a leg to fix it.
I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem like you can build an internal windows with GTK apps. Unfortunately this is very important in modern software apps and is the one big advantage that KDE has over GTK. I think if GTK and KDE were to standardize on an internal window system with min/max buttons than things would be better.
I'd really like to see Linux get to the point where KDE and Gnome can co-exist. They've both got enough merits and momentum that there's no point trying to kill one of them off. But if you're trying to attract mainstream applications to Linux, you have to attract developers, and if you want to attract developers, you need standards. It's just not worth their time to have to develop an app for KDE and then discover that in order to attract the OTHER half of Linux users, you're going to have to port the whole thing over to Gnome. This is the kind of stuff that people who don't like Linux love to complain about, and frankly they have a point. One of the biggest frustrations for me early on (and even still today, sometimes) was that every dingle X-Windows app seemed to want some different windowing toolkit, or library, or whatnot, that had to be downloaded from this site, except that now that site is giving you an HTTP 404 error and you just give up and end up booting back into NT. Anyway, my point is that it doesn't really matter whether KDE or Gnome or GNUStep or Bob's Little Windowing Toolkit is better, what's important is that we get these guys talking to each other. Hopefully, eventually you could drop a KDE app into your Gnome desktop and have all the bindings work fine, and all the special features working right. Be kind to your developers, and they will be kind to you. I sure as heck don't want to write apps for one environment and then have the other one win out...
Anyway, that's my relatively worthless two cents.
There's the Linux Security Audit Project mailing list, which is doing some good work (coordinator is Chris Evans). And while Redhat isn't exactly funding it, they do have Alan Cox working on it. Redhat is also pretty prompt in putting up RPMs of the stuff that the project has fixed (as is Debian).
What am I missing here?
I dislike how KDE is really bloated but it's still in the infant stages (Like NT5.0 and winnuts98) when it matures it will surely be a lean-mean window manager. Also KDE flat out rules that it installs instantly on a RH machine. while gnome takes 90 billion downloads and you have to fight the thing the whole way. Although KDE could have a install scrip to apply the rpms in the right order.. (3.2 seconds of programming work) Red hat will become the newbie Linux distrib... and I hope that Slackware keeps being nice and stable for my older apps (Try and compile gpsd under RH5.X ... but it compiles under slackware..)
Redhat and KDE = 100% perfect way to get a newbie hooked on Linux. Debian/Slackware and Afterstep = the great way to keep a hacker realllly happy.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Yeah i'll admit that the default GNOME looks a bit clunky, but a great thing about GNOME is its ability to change. Here are some things i've done to pretty up my GNOME:
Coordination: since i have drawn most of my own bitmaps on my desktop, i have kept up a consistant purplish-grey color with bright yellow active areas.
Enlightenment: use it. I made a custom theme to match my GTK theme, and it looks great.
Backround pixmap: use some cool stuff, try for color coordination more than a kick-a$$ image.
GTK+ themes: I used thin-ice, which is fast, and the best-looking widgets i've ever seen. Very clean and proffesional looking while not being boring. I didn't like the default colors so i changed them to a more pleasing purplish-gray.
Quicklaunch or something like that: it's a panel app which will display smaller icons if you don't like the larger ones.
Put a bit of work into it, and you can make your GNOME desktop look really sweet.
KDE and GNOME and a few smallish apps on them, like file managers, help systems, and panels. But the real benifits of these desktops is indirect. KDE and GNOME provide services to the apps, which in turn make better apps which help you out. If you want to find out exactly what they do, go to thier websites: www.kde.org and www.gnome.org.
Yeah, actually, I work 60+ hours per week on HP-UX and Solaris running CDE and OpenWindows. I also ran OS/2 for about a year, and own a Mac. I've even messed around with QNX...
Anyway, I guess that one of my primary gripes about KDE are the icons. They are very professionally done, but done in the same manner that Windows is "professional."
I was running the KDE off of the RedHat 5.2 disk (whichever KDE version that is) and in the default installation, I felt like I was using Winbloze -- the helper apps (control-panel, etc) were all there, the icons very similar, and the buttons/windows looked very close.
I looked briefly into changing things to be more Next-like, but I eventually came to the conclusion (right or wrong) that the Qt libraries were providing the icons/etc. that were making it Windows like, so it would be unlikely to have a simple theme change the underlying libraries. (I'd like to see more about that Next like Qt library, though...) The few themes I did try-out at the time only changed the backgrounds, colors, and stuff like that. Still the same basic look (like changing the themes in WinXX).
Mike
Pinball, arcade video, tech and more: www.micsaund.com
It bothers me that KDE looks so much like Win95/Win98 and is getting so much attention. Basically, the only difference in appearance from KDE and WinXX is the little wharf type bar.
Now, admittedly, I'm NOT a KDE expert, and maybe there is a way to get the KDE "extended functionality" from another window manager (sounds like GNOME then), but the default window manager creates a WinXX style clone. All of the buttons, icons, app layouts, etc. look like Bill Gates himself designed everything.
I, for one, enjoy having a unique desktop. I really like the Next type appearance, and thus I choose to run WindowMaker. I never (NEVER) want my Linux machine to look just like Winbloze. Isn't this ability to customize your environment one of the key points in using Linux?
Pinball, arcade video, tech and more: www.micsaund.com
I personally don't need all that extra stuff so I just use WindowMaker. So I don't have any files on my desktop, because I don't have that functionality (don't miss it, reminds me too much of winbloze and Macintosh, mac isn't quite as bad, but I still won't use one as my personal computer).
This whole thing is about choice. You choose your GUI based on what you need. Check out the feature listings, go read up on a couple of these proggies, gnome stuff is at www.gnome.org and KDE is based at www.kde.org. I personally use WindowMaker, refered to earlier as "GNUstep." They all have their advantages, they all are extremely configurable, check out themes.org, and pay special attention to OctoberX's stuff (he's one of /.'s).
So I guess what all the hubbub is about, is that we pick what our GUI looks like and how it reacts to our commands. It is a huge matter of personal needs and preferences. There isn't anything forced on us. SuSE comes configured to run KDE, but I changed when I decided I didn't like it. Like the distro wars, one's choice of GUI can get to be pretty personal and some users tend to get pretty emotional about their particular window manager.
ph43drus
There already exists a desktop chooser XwmMenu, I use it every day.
Linux, coming to a desktop near you!
I use WindowMaker and GNOME. I develop in GTK+ because of costs issues with Qt. The applications I write will be released as shareware and some will be freeware. GTK+ offers me the best cost solution. Qt is nice, but anything I develop in Qt (if I do) will be freeware, unless I can see making lots of money from my apps written for it.
I plan on donating pertcentage of my sales to help out the Linux movement. This means donations to the Free Software Foundation and other groups involved in producing free software for Linux.
I just like GTK+, but also have Qt around for other applications I may use.
My redhat 5.2 box has xv, I use it all the time.
-matt
Tell you the truth, I don't know, as I installed the whole darn mess. I believe you would at least need the gnome-core package...which I believe actually contains the code for panel, but I am unsure of how that depends on the other aspects of Gnome. Anyone else know...this would be usefull just because the Gnome install process is such a mess....entirely too many files to download, keep track of, and the like.
I found Gnome too unstable also, which made me sad because I prefered the feel of it to KDE. I like KDE, and support it, but its just a tad to slow for me....gnome on the other hand is fast and has, IMHO, a nicer interface, but its install is freaking insane and its not stable.
One thing that I found that is kindof nifty, on my system at least, is to run individual gnome components under windowmaker. I have my windowmaker autolaunch panel and gmc on launch, and for some reason this is far more stable than using gnome-session was. had no problems with it, but I have just been using it for acouple days. That way I can still keep the nifty gpager and set up some drawers for common apps, but keep most of the advantages of windowmaker. granted, this strips out alot off the niftyness of gnome..but hey.
It might just be gdm, unless they have just said the hell with that being their default desktop (which I doubt).
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
KDE I guess is striving to be instantly usable by any one comming from windows95. I can say this about GNOME too. I am prone to saying the hell with any desktop that makes me learn how to use a windowing system all over again.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
you are aware that bruce is, at the very least, a four-star general in said army, no?
-k. ^-^ ^D
It's NOT voluntary! Hackers everywhere are being forced to pay Red Hat to support this software! When are we going to stop the madness and INSIST that the binaries be free, the source be free, the documentation be free, and the SUPPORT be free?
Oh, sure, we COULD write our own documentation, and we COULD look in the support newsgroups, but that IGNORES the fact that someone, somewhere, is PAYING ACTUAL MONEY for these things. It's an anomoly, and it creates an IDEOLOGICAL impurity. Does not compute! *clank* Does not compute! *clank*.
Not only must we insure that these things are free so that ALL computer people can help their fellow women and men achieve the NIRVANA that is the INEVITABLE UTOPIAN RESULT of absolute freeness, but the people who have PERPETRATED these travesties must be made to CORRECT THEIR WRONG THINKING. They must be made to admit their mistakes through self-criticism, and, if they persist in such counter-revolutionary agitation, re-education through labor becomes a real option.
-k. ^-^ ^D
Heh.. good old quote!
If the projects did merge, I think GDE would be a much better name than KNOME. Blech, KNOME just looks ugly.
Why is it all flamers are AC's?
Anyway, WindowMaker is not dated, it as good gnome support, KDE suppost and ol(v)wm support.
Those 1 inch bars you are refering to are resizable.
Smarten Up or Shut Up.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
As some person pointed out to be once, KDE IS NOT A WINDOW MANAGER. kwm is a window manager, if you actually knew anything about software you would have noticed that its easily possible and very effecitive to replace kwm with WindowMaker and still have the complete (in fact improved) KDE thing going on.
So there!
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
The G in GNOME (and GIMP and a number of other apps) stands for GNU. Do they want to take the GNU out of free software?
It is a symbolism thing. I like to think of the GNOME stuff I write as GNU stuff as well.
Cool
-Master Switch, one more element in the machine
It continues to amaze me to see people bad mouth the work of the KDE group and the GNOME group. Both of these groups have worked very hard to give you something for FREE. These are quality "products". They may not be perfect, but they are advancing rapidly. If you disagree with the philosophy of one or the other, then don't use the one you don't like. Linux offers you the unique choice of interfaces. Find one you like and use it. Don't bother me about which one I need to use. Don't run around putting peoples hard work down. Voice your opinion through your choice, not your big mouth. Hey, by the way, don't forget Afterstep and Window Maker. Hell, there are probably 10 or 12 more. As for Red Hat supporting KDE, great. In my humble opinion, I believe that a distrobution maker should offer their customers the widest range of choices. It's good to see this happening.
-Master Switch (Linux, KDE, GNOME, Window Maker, AfterStep, and console user) Its ALL GOOD
-Master Switch, one more element in the machine
An idiot you may not be, but you're acting like one. All Red Hat ever had against KDE was the use of the closed source QT packages. Troll Tech has revised their license. It's free as long as your product is open source, and otherwise compliant with the goals of the GPL.
Red Hat seems to support any quality product, and a high level of diversity as long as it meets the open source standard.
Have you tried gtk.themes.org? Sure, the default is pretty plain, but it can look MUCH better with a nice bitmap theme. I like the marble one.
When I found an environment that let me Alt-Tab to other applications by default (not to mention using the keyboard to go to another virtual desktop) and make me feel like I could manipulate and configure my environment from the environment itself I finally felt like I could have faith in world domination. Besides, it's wonderful to be able to have themes and event driven sounds. These little things make going from A to B that much quicker.
bnf
this space intentionally left blank (oops)
That's a very nifty idea, assuming it could work with a non-DE-specific XDM (no preference!) Just like a Solaris box, where you can choose right from the login screen: OpenLook or CDE.
(although why anyone would choose OpenLook is beyond me };-)
iSKUNK!
I assume you're talking about the WIMP paradigm (Windows, Icons, Menus, Pointers) and how GNOME doesn't really get out of that groove. I've wondered about this myself-- I mean, compare the super-well-thought-out UI and object-oriented-everythingness of GNUstep, and the far-out ideas that have been kicking around (e.g. AntiMac . . . now if only I had that URL!)
However, there doesn't seem to be any reason why GNOME 2.0 couldn't begin to move out of the WIMP mindset for a better one, whatever that will be. As long as you keep the old libraries around, and a well-behaved compatibility layer, all the DE-type integration should continue to work at a useful level (along with the legacy WIMPUI, naturally).
Disclaimer: I know nothing about GNOME's design, only GTK+. So, for anyone in the know, I'd like to ask this: Has the GNOME foundation been engineered to easily accomodate future evolutions (!=WIMP) of GUI design? Or would this be a case where we should want to build up a new codebase, when the time comes?
iSKUNK!
Should be interesting to see how KOffice does. If it lives up to all the good words I've heard about it, that will become the QT app to be reckoned with.
(Will it need kwm to run, btw? I'd be one happy user if it'll work under plain X)
iSKUNK!
whoops . . . make that X+Qt :-]
iSKUNK!
Second, my mom set up her own Novell 3 network (using Arcnet!) in the late 80's. On her own. She set up her own server and clients, and hired a guy to write RDBMS software for her. Then she made it work, and it still works -- absolutely perfectly -- for her to this day. The only reason she has to upgrade is because she's using 386s for terminals, and the non-flashable BIOSes on those MBs aren't Y2K compliant. So it's upgrade time.
She said that since she was going to upgrade, she might as well have a Net connection (so she could work at home and maybe get a web server in house and save some cash). That means she needs a gateway machine. I thought that it would be criminal not to tell her about Linux. So I showed her my Red Hat/KDE laptop, and she loved it. She felt like she could actually use it. Like Unix wasn't just about an arcane command line interface, but that it had some "modern improvements" that could make it more than compete with Win32 systems. She *liked* KDE a lot; it made Linux seem accessible.
That may sound frivilous, but that's *exactly* what it will take to make Linux ubiquitous. She looked at it, and realized that she could use it. It had a Tetris clone, and would run for years without a single reboot. What more could she ask for?
Of course, I'll be able to SSH in to the machine and maintain it, but I suspect that she'll want to as well (and from home even). I haven't foisted anythiing on her, I've merely shown her what Linux could do for her. She thought it was all about a command line interface, and I showed her that it wasn't.
Because of the ease of use of KDE, and because it's so easy for her to install Red Hat, it makes it possible for her to buy the Red Hat 6.0 box at CompUSA and then go put it on her network.
KDE and Red Hat will make it accessible to her, and to the masses as well. That's the Good Thing. KDE helps that transition from Win32 to Linux. I mean, she'll be using Linux because she liked KDE, and she knows that Linux will work well for her. Now she knows that she has a very stable platform which has a friendly interface. This is why I think all the hubbub about KDE and licenses being somehow bad is completely silly.
I didn't mean to write a dissertation, but I wanted to be clear in that Linux was made a choice because of Red Hat and KDE, and integrating the two can only make things better. Nothing is or was being forced upon anyone. She merely knows that she can have a better gateway platform that she can actually use without getting a degree.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
The fact of the matter is that KDE is a pretty decent desktop. Yeah, if you're running a server you probably don't need KDE (or GNOME, for that matter). But for workstations, it's not that bad. And Linux needs to move into the workstation arena before it can really take off. Doing that means having a nice GUI.
KDE is easily installed, usable, fairly stable, mostly customizable, has plenty of apps that take advantage of it's semi-unique features, and looks pretty good. And it beats the shit out of Windows. KDE can be used to win the hearts and minds aof Windows/Mac users because of these attributes.
I'm setting up a gateway machine for my mother in about three months, and I convinced her that Linux was the best choice, over much protestation about how Unix is "...all command line stuff, and I gave that up with DOS." She's very computer literate, but not a Unix user, and had this notion in her head that Linux was, at best, curses-based. So I showed her KDE, and she loved it. I also showed her fvwm and WindowMaker (just to let her know that she did, in fact, have a choice and that this was what Linux was all about) and she was not terribly impressed.
Now another business is going to have Linux as an integral part of it's success. And it's primarily because of KDE (I showed her some uptime figures for Linux vs. NT, and that helped as well...). So how can KDE be bad? In this case at least, KDE has converted one more soul. When she sees that her gateway machine never goes down, and the WinNT clients always have to be rebooted, she'll probably deploy Linux more widely.
And that's a Good Thing. It's what we need.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Come on, world of adult people doesn't work like this. I don't think KDE people are in any way offended by RH's previous refusals to support them. There is nothing personal about it. It is just a business decision for both KDE and RH. As long as I undewrstand this correctly RH didn't support KDE because they thought that KDE was not compliant with their policies regarding the sodtware included in their distro. I have know idea if RH just bent their policies a little or have come to some form of agreement with Troll or KDE team, but apparently they found it possible to provide support to this project.
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
Strange. I have used RH since release 4.2 and I would say that since 5.1 came out I would call it the easiest to install and maintain. SuSe is very close. SuSe is actually on the same level if not better if you switch from Yast to Linuxconf, and straiten your directory tree a little. Debian is good, I have to say that I even like dpkg better then rpm, but the dselect is SO UGLY. Also I am not sure if there is an admin utility in debian analogous to linuxconf. Caldera is really good, but slow to update and expensive. I am not going to even start about how ugly Slackware is.
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
Install Debian. It is a decent distro. Tinker with it for a while. Go ftp.kde.org and get .deb packages. Install Enjoy :)
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
The consistency is good for the developer as well. Shared components take away a lot of coding work, and allow developers to provide uniformity between applications without specifically having to plan for it. It's the same idea as using a standard widget library instead of rewriting one for every application.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the GNOME printing system turns out (I assume KDE has something similar, but I'm more familiar with GNOME). Printing under Unix is almost always a miserable kludge if you're doing anything more complicated than feeding plain text to a printer's default tray. This is one area (I'm referring to the client end, not the server end) where Windows is way ahead of Linux, and I'd like to see it resolved.
Then fix it. Pick up the Harmony project and just f**king fix the problem.
End of story.
--C
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
So pick up Harmony and fix the whole mess. Or don't, and shut up.
Yes, it is _just_that_easy_. You have the source, so go out there and use it!
--C
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Touchy, touchy, touchy!
KDE people DONT want to take the G out of anything. God forbid we would insult your greligion and gbeliefs. The last thing Linux (sorry, Gnulix) needs is political correctness. You can always determine a man's irrational beliefs by what offends him.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Umm, it's been more than 15 years. Unless of course, you define free software in the narrow terms of GNU only. What about BSD, K&R C, etc. This is like saying Christianity didn't begin until the council of Nicea!
Nice try, Richard, but it doesn't wash.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Looks like windows!!! Maybe I'm using a different KDE than you (or a different windows than you). You do realize that you can customize KDE?
You can have a panel+task bar, panel by itself, big, medium and large panel, menus at the top ala mac, win vs motif styled widgets, advance themes, etc, etc.
Everything windows has was ripped off from someone else. By saying it looks like windows, you are in fact saying that it looks like warp/mac/cde. The first time I installed and started KDE, by first thought was, "cooll - looks like WPS".
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Damn. That was some speech. Next time, use a login and get some credit for your thoughts. I agree, freedom has a high price. And if we do not maintain an eye and a voice on what is goin on, we stand to lose that freedom and turn Linux into another proprietary OS same as everything else. And that would be a very sad day indeed.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
I am not so sure you can not do that with Troll Tec's Qt licence. Why not firing an email to them asking them if you can?
Once again Norway is not Redmond. Even if the licence would not cover what you want to do, I am certain they would not bother you if you don't plan to sell your embedded system big time. In the latter case it may just seem fair to give them a little margin on your profit.
I like knotes ;-)
Not a big innovation I admit, but it works fine for me, better then xclipboard.
I think the general thrust of KDE is to get a solid DE that can replace Windoze. No point in getting all innovative if you want to sell it to businesses. They invested in the training on Windoze, so you have to be able to tell them: Look you can make it look and feel like Windoze, you don't have to spend a penny on retraining your employees, you don't have spend anything for the licence. Once Linux "ownes" the desktop people can figure out by them selfes that they can do way cooler things then just running a Windoze clone.
I think the reason that KDE is so Windoze like is exactly for the reasons you gave at the end of your posting. Businesses invested in the training of their employees. That is why you have to be able to tell them: Look you can make it look and feel like Windoze, you don't have to spend a penny on retraining your employees, you don't have spend anything for the licence.
:-)
Once Linux "ownes" the desktop people can figure out by themselfes that they can do way cooler things then runing a Windoze clone. For example KDE 1.1 has some Macish emulation features that you can switch on. Nothing earth-shattering yet, but it shows that the developers are not unaware of this Windoze trap.
The next wave of computing might look completly different anyway. Most wearable computers in academia run Linux. You certainly have different GUI paradigmes there. Who wants to carry a desktop around all day?
As long as it is OpenSource. At least that was my understanding. Correct me when I am wrong.
It is good that the Open Source Community can afford to develop two desktop environments, so that the best technology for a specific purpose can be picked.
All this bickering about licence? Those ppl who painfully point out that QPL is not GPL,
a) Who cares? If that's how you think then presumbaly you only write free software, in which case there is nothing wrong with QPL
b) Troll Tech is actually a company, and need income if they are going to feed and clothe their children, etc. There income is from selling Qt and, to their credit, they've decided they can do without the income from the free-software sector.
I use Qt. So far only for free stuff. However if I want to use it for my employer, my employer will pay for it. I think that is reasonable.
And while I'm having my 2c worth, those RedHat users who are dissapointed by RH's decision, well, don't use KDE. No reason to stop buying RedHat.
- 0x0
I waited and waited for GNOME. when it was releaed I downloaded all 937 RPMs. I finally got it installed in the right order. I ran it. It worked for about 5 mins before it crashed.
I really thought Enlightenment was nice. I thought gnome was cool. I think it was a little premature in it's release. I ended up going back to WIndowmaker & KDE.
Flame Me I'm Irish!!
oops, a day late.
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
Then choose an alternative. Redhat is a company out to make money (ouch, that is a bad word here). Quick, go back and look at all of the things RedHat has done for the "Free Software" movement. Ok, now that you are done, go back and read the QPL. OK, now go back and read the BSD license (which is the best in my opinion). Why does everythin have to be in line wit the GPL? It's just a license. Troll Tech spent alot of time and money developing the libraries. RedHAt spent alot of time and money developing the distribution. Debian spent alot of time (I bet money somewhere) creating thier distribution. Is this the true test for "Open Software", ...If Microsoft bought Troll Tech tommorrow, would KDE exist next week...
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
That's the way I do it. I have two logins, one for GNOME and one for KDE. I can use either one and I can use the other's apps from either one.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
Not that I want to spread FUD, but I downloaded GNOME the other day and tried it. I got 30 some odd RPMs an fiddled with --force and --nodeps to get all of them installed.
I was impressed with GNOME, but I semed like KDE Beta3 from a year ago. I've already gone through enough to take a step back. I've got wok to do and don't want to fight the stability of my desktop. After all, I could just use Windows.
I'm happy with KDE ad quite satisfied with the QPL, though I do prefer the GPL to any other license. Maye RedHat and Corel should just hire the TrollTech guys and make them the Norway division of RH and Corel Advanced Development Labs? Then they could make QT GPL. I really think that having a commercial toolkit has made KDE progress faster. If RH and Corel hired them to write GPL code, we would all benefit.
I'm pretty sure KDE does the same thing. For example, try to open up the Kpanel under Window Maker version 0.20.3- for me, it didn't work.
Still not dead.
Does it really look that much like Windows? I think KDE has it's own look. Sure, a lot of things smells Windows, but then there's also a smell of other desktops (like CDE). Just my opinion.
Anyway, I believe KDE is wm indepentant these days. Think I've seen KDE compliant versions of WindowMaker, IceWM and others.
More important, some months ago some guy posted an url here. There was some sceenshots showing off Qt with a Next theme, surely looked awesome. Maybe someone remember the url, I don't??
This was just some drivel, I'm quite clueless about KDE nowadays. It's been a year since I tried it last time, nor do I use Gnome. I still prefer the clean look of plain good old WindowMaker.
(or were you just trolling?)
The Czar, The King of England, and the Emperor of Austria were all releated in WWI.
Careful with those comparisons!;)
The party's over
- nr
One must atleast respect RedHat's intentions. By contributing to Linux and allowing ANYONE to use their products, their motivation is to allow anyone with a little knowledge to use Linux and not Windows. And if Linux is easier to use, then Redhat and the entire Linux community benefits. An easy-to-use wm substantially decreases the learning curve associated with Linux, so that former Windows users can become expert Linux users more quickly and with less frustration. So even if KDE isn't the best, atleast RedHat has good intentions. Even *if* funding KDE is a bad thing, RH's intention is to make Linux easier-to-use. Which wm they fund has little impact on their bottom-line in the short-run.
Why you should SUFFER??
Did you SUFFER the time, money and the dedication it took to write QT, did you also apply those same things in writing KDE? I'll wager you didn't.
To me you're lazy, you just want everyone else to do the work for you so you can rip it for yourself eh? It's Troll Tech's library/widget set.. they're letting you have the source AND they're letting you make modifications to that source. all they want is YOU to distribute your modifications separate from their source.. if that is such a problem pick up the harmony project, finish it.. and shut up.
Whine... and it's truely funny too.. looky here:
..and im willing to wager that he/she would expect people to PAY for that software that he writes comercially and provides on both unix and win* ... yet he dont feel he should pay another company that wants money for a product they make...
'b) I don't give a [bad word] if Troll Tech emloyees starve, there are far better causes to contribute your hard earned cash'
Isn't that mean? Poor troll kids... but on a more serious note.. this guy/gal is quite the joker.. really funny.. see QPL allows him to make FREE software.. but if he wants to make comercial/proprietary software, he has to pay X$ to Troll tech... cant have that though.. from what i get out of his/her 'rant' looks to me as though he WANTS to make comercial/closed source/proprietary software.. ( you all should be against that right?)
What ever makes you the most money without you having to spend money right? Double standards suck..
I am one of Corel's biggest fans and I think that by refocusing their efforts away from Microsoft, they will have the best chance of providing a powerful office suite for linux. The biggest danger with the KDE/Gnome war is that developers of commercial products (which, IMHO, are necessary for linux to gain desktop marketshare) will use one or the other and users will get stuck with some apps on KDE and some that only run on Gnome. I hope that Red Hat can help the KDE/Gnome developer's standardize on an API/object model/whatever to make apps run on either desktop. Maybe something like wxwindows or some other high level wrapper. (just an idea, not an endorsement) I prefer Gnome to KDE but I will use whatever lets me be productive. I hope that my desktop choice is decided by personal prefs and not by what apps I can run!
I see it like this, new user comes in after they get to see Linux running with KDE or GNOME. Now more users well be using one of these two. So what happens when say KDE gets more popular and devlopers start to develop for KDE only. What I'm getting at here is that we could have another Win98 on a really great Kernel. What if some the KDE devlopers get sloppy and just make the whole thing entirely to bloated and it runs like crap. Then theres a bunch of programs out that only run on KDE and they all run like crap. I'm not saying this well happen but it could happen with of the three (KDE, Gnome, GNUStep).
;)
dead
Don't spread FUD. GNOME is quite useable. KDE is more mature.
I just wish GTK and QT would use the same themes...I want my QT apps to fit in with my pretty GTK apps ;)
...that they'll interoperate. I like GNOME's panel, but if I run a KDE mini-app, I want it to show up in GNOME's panel. (and vice versa) Once that happens, I'll be a very happy man.
The earliest I could get to start writing it is 6 months from now, if I'm lucky. I've already got to finish another GPL'd app I'm writing, I have a lot of studying to do, and I want to write a book. That and trying to juggle a woman, eats up a lot of my time.
Unfortunately, there is no way QT would go GPL. That is how Troll Tech makes their money. There's no doubt in my mind that using a commercial toolkit helped speed up the KDE development. QT is very nice, I enjoy programming with it. However, as a user, I prefer GTK. I'm planning on learning it once I get some free time. Now that GNOME is past the 1.0 mark, things should speed up rapidly. What took so long was they didn't use a nice stable commercial toolkit from the beginning...they built their own. (which, if you ask me, is better in the long run)
okay, clarification for the mentally challenged: juggling TIME to spend with the woman