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Mozilla M5 Released
Only minutes ago, the 5th Mozilla milestone (aka M5) was reached. Interested parties
may download it from the mozilla.org ftp site. Mozilla.org
head-honcho Mike Shaver says "Yes [I am pleased with the recent progress on mozilla]. Our memory leak count is
way down due to the efforts of Bruce Mitchener, Scott Collins, and Mike Pinkerton." Go get it.
It's getting faster and faster!!!
Good show!
Top men are working on it.
The last Mozilla release I've tried was M4 on Linux and, well, let me tell you, it offered nowhere near the speed, functionality and completeness of last summer's IE5 beta 1. I know Mozilla is pre-alpha and Microsoft probably didn't dare release the first IE5 beta until they were reasonably sure it would perform well enough for everyday use, but there's little need to spread disinformation.
Now, I'm sure Mozilla will turn out to be a fine browser and, given the lack of alternatives, be the best on some platforms, but the fact remains that no one can touch IE5 for now. I've been using it under NT for the past week and now cringe every time I have to revert to Netscape (or M4).
AC
I've used the communicator 4.x series ever
since it came out on a linux box at home
and an hpux box at work. While it is surely
bloated, it is NOT unstable. I can remember
less than half a dozen crashes during the
entire time on both platforms combined.
If you experience random crashes, it is probably
either user error or some inherent instability
of your setup, IMHO.
Hari.
It looks OK, the only problem I have is using the Up/down arrows on the keyboard to scroll the page, then the rendering becomes completely messed up. (i'm referring to the GNU/Linux version)
If I use the scroll bar with the mouse it scrolls fine. Hopefully someone will fix this because its been there in all the builds ive tried and it is quite annoying since it totally screws up the page. Otherwise, keep up the good work mozilla team.:)
Crashes about half the time I do Get Msgs. The .....bye, bye, NS. This being with NS4.51, kernel 2.2.5, glibc-2.1.1 (but it has
'enter password' dialog comes up, enter the password, hit enter
been doing that since NS4.08)
I've noticed some rendering bugs when using the keyboard keys (up/down/pgup/pgdown) to scroll the web sites. When using the mouse, the scan lines do not get messed up. Hopefully this will be fixed in the next release. Keep up the good work mozilla team!
In the grand tradition of Arrogant Hyperdefensive Internet Assholism, i'll do that "reply line by line" thing that irritates me so much unless I'm doing it. I do get my rocks off on it, I wonder why? Must be my immaturity.
:"Cinco de Milestone
"How much did AOL pay you to write this essay? It reads well. Who are you? Why are you not in advertising (perhaps you are)? Al Gore needs some good speechwriters these days - he also needs support from the nerd community."
Approximately two dollars. I saved about that much money reusing those disks they gave me in the mail. And it reads well because I believe in what I say and I write pretty well, even at two in the morning. And that last bit was kind of reaching, even for a urbane little troll like yourself who has to shit on the birthday cake just because everyone's having too much fun at the party. I enjoy mozilla's promise and I enjoy watching it grow and finding out how it learns. Playing with IE5 gave me five minutes of "wow that's nice" and now it is another one of my most used tools. Mozilla offers ME more as a nerd who enjoys this sort of thing.
"If even 1/3 of what you write held, I'd be most impressed. However, my experience with Mozilla
releases on the 2 major platforms so far (Windoze and Linux) has been most unimpressive. Extremely slow and jerky rendering, many bugs, many if not most buttons and keys non-functional, too many crashes, and the list goes on. Since Steve Chase is not forwarding me a huge check for writing advertising copy for AOL at 2 in the morning, I won't itemize the "features" of Mozilla
vis-a-vis other browsers as you have done."
It will probably continue to be slow and jerky up to and past release. In fact, that kind of sucks. I will deal. The buttons don't work because A: it's been explained in the readmes what is working and what is not and B: they will work when they are finished. Incidentally, things crash when THEY'RE NOT REMOTELY DONE. Christ almighty.
"Folks, this is release 5 of the Mozilla beta. Try it for yourself. Then you too can say lots of good things about this remarkable new open source effort, including that you may start using Mozilla as your primary browser after the next milestone release, or the one after that."
Dick. From mozilla.org, hot off the electrons
M5 has been released. The usual caveats apply to this pre-alpha software. File bugs with Bugzilla. "
Wait a minute, i'm trying to find the word beta.. hold on, i need another minute.. SHIT! All i'm seeing are these P_R_E_A_L_P_H_A_ letters... And who the hell wants to use a beta tool daily? I will continue to use IE5 and NS4.51 until Mozilla is good enough to justify my using it more often.
"It gives one the warm fuzzies to say all these good things about the project on which the future of free software depends. (guffaw) Meanwhile life goes on and you will continue to use Netscape 4.x or (gasp) MS IE5. "
Which is PRECISELY what I said. All of free software depends on Mozilla. Dick. Perhaps 11k of explanations of what I think wasn't enough. Mozilla is a crucially important tool for those of us who are sick of technically inferior browsers and NS4.51, which just purely sucks. Open source software (!=free) will do just fine without Mozilla, as will you. Please enjoy the fine Microsoft line of products or whichever other products you prefer. I do enjoy capitalism a great deal though and am excited to see market forces at work.
IE5 is a technically inferior browser built at enormous cost to microsoft that offers a very efficient pleasurable final experience for almost everyone. The UI work is world class, the stability has been vastly improved over IE4, and I use it almost 2-3 hours a day sometimes. 90% of my work is done in it, and I wouldn't recommend anything but IE5 to ANYONE, until something better comes along. Now take your nose out of the ozone and stop being so condescending to the people who try to shop their shit here simply because they enjoy it and want to see it succeed. AOL/Netscape has 30 million + bucks invested in Mozilla. I have invested considerable amounts of my time. I enjoy it and hope you have something in your life that you feel as passionately about. It certainly gives me something to do at 2AM.
The UI is world class.
The toolbar rearranging is a welcome improvement. It is not adequate for me after seeing what XUL promises.
The radio is too gimmicky and unreliable. I wish it was Shoutcast capable.
I have no problem with IE5 being Windows only. I use Windows a lot and enjoy it. I do enjoy linux more, but I get more work done in Windows.
You would know more about the DOM quality than I would. Usable is usable. (re: all ie and ns browsers made save for NS/IE 2.x...)
PNG images are mangled in terms of dimensions and layout. Borders can get added for no reason. They decode quite slow. Some funkier features of PNG (progressive display, et al) I do not believe work. They make IE hork like it's loading the JVM. IE cannot be characterized as adept at handing them, in my opinion.
IE is a nice browser, IE4 and 5 the best out there. I just want cleaner, more accurate, more efficient, more complete,and less gimmicky tools: none of which Microsoft is promising me and all of which Mozilla is delivering to me.
She's tacky, she's flakey, she's dirty, but galdamnit if she isn't cheap, free, and good at getting a quickie done right. :^)
Translation for the virginal: (Not a tool a professional would be caught dead using but very good at spot HTML for myriad non-technical/semi-technical users. Home pages, tables, that sort of thing. It's very useful for being a free download)
You for got one on the IE 5 side:
IE5 crash does not take your mail with it.
Why oh why must a crash of the browser take Messenger with it?
Sigh. Every time I try the NS/messenger combo I go back to IE/Outlook express. Better mail integration and stability.
I love NS4.51's messenger's IMAP4 implementation. Really great.
Too bad Mozzilla does not include mail?
Will the mail browsing interaction be any better in NS5?????
IE5 send-as-web-page lets you actually edit the web page you are sending.
I love love love this feature, as it lets me strip all of the banner adds and other bandwidth wasting graphics from a page before sending.
NS 4.51, just shows you the link of what you are sending
Yuk.
Does mozilla/NS5 "get a clue" when it comes to browser/mail integration??????
Yeah, I get random Netscape crashes too; especially when I resize a window while something is rendering. But I get very similar crashes with IE5. I see little difference except that Netscape is going open source on Microsoft is going "embrace, extend, destroy". My heart is with Mozilla.
What the hell are you talking about? I compiled
the CVS version on a Solaris box using egcs and
I had no problem. Making NSPR was a bitch but
mozilla compiled "out of the box".
If so, I still can't use it :(
(and, no, I won't install GNOME...nor will I install Gtk 1.1.X or 1.2.X)
Ok...I'm probably dumb, and probably gonna get flamed for this, but is there a readme anywhere for running mozilla? I really want to check it out, but it's missing shared object files...I'm on a pretty stock RH 5.2 distribution (once again, no flames please). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
-Jim
viewer: error in loading shared libraries
/pub/tmp/package/libraptorhtmlpars.so: undefined symbol: __vt_8iostream.3ios
And that's all I get.
(running Slack3.6, LibC5.4.46 and runtime GlibC2.07)
Yes, I've been using the Boehm-Demers-Weiser package
with C++ for 2 years now, and am quite happy with it. It's
amazing how much simpler code can be when you don't have
to worry about things like reference counts. It also seems to be
quite fast, and works on most every common platform.
Yes, Netscape under Linux has been extremely stable for me.
I don't think I've seen it crash in over a year.
On, the other hand, its behavior for the "back" key is extremely
annoying. It often wants to reload images, making its use for
forums like Slashdot extremely slow. I much prefer KFM,
despite its memory leaks.
Okay, how do I set up configure M5 for HT/FTP proxy? Want to get M5 working behind a Microsoft Proxy Server. Gotta try loading /. on this Gecko engine I keep hearing about.
This should be a score ZERO, not 5.
Thanks
Mark
I have serious issues with the Linux version of Communicator.
1) memory leaks like CRAZY
2) crashes every couple of days.
Mark
Is it able to configure font selection and pass in the -geometry yet?
I can't read flyspeck-3. At 1600x1200 it is difficult to read.
Thanks,
Mark
An irritating thing about netscape 4.51 in linux is that the entire process seems to block when doing a dns query that's a bad 'un. It ain't multithreaded, no siree.
The symptom of this blocking query is when you click on a link, and the thing seems to freeze, and when you collapse the window and expand it again, the window is basically empty.
Out of curiosity, I left one such window open + went out to dinner. When I came back, the page had failed to render, but the process was no longer blocked, which suggests to me that maybe it isn't quite a bug, just a stupidly long timeout -i.e. a design issue.
Why can't there be a separate task/process ( or possibly thread on an architecture with memory protection...*) instance spawned for each browser window, like in Amiga Voyager. Addmittedly, Amiga Voyager is a little lacking in features, but the MUI-based user interface, speed, and parallelism in the UI and network retrieval system make it very pleasant to use..
*the amiga has no memory protection on the 68k side, but tends to have a model sort of similar to threads, in which a parent AmigaDOS Process spawns lots of little Tasks to get things done.
I do not know in excruciating technical detail what I am trying to peddle.
e w.html
7 11.html
h tml
I do not have daily involved contact with the technologies i'm trying to shop.
I'm a loudmouth longwinded little kid, and my distorted logic and halfassed opinions are impossible to deal with.
All my horrible faults granted, I'm still largely right. See if Netscape PR agrees.
http://home.netscape.com/browsers/future/overvi
And
http://home.netscape.com/newsref/pr/newsrelease
And
http://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article511.
And
http://www.mozilla.org
And
http://www.mozillazine.org
Enjoy M5.
I found that the trick was to not use netscape's internal mail fetching to use the messenger. By a little constructive work, you can get it's "MoveMail external program" option to use procmail.
.bash_profile, and putting this in my home dir:
.forward to use procmail.
.procmailrc
.netscape.mail-recovery
/var/spool/mail/myusername, and put it in the (undocumented, AFAICT) file ~/nsmail/.netscape.mail-recovery
.fetchmailrc and .procmailrc must have restricted permissions set as documented in the fetchmail+procmail manuals.
(mind you, I'm on pop3 - I realise you may not store your messages locally, but keep them on your IMAP server, but you mentioned "losing email", which suggests local storage, so these tips might be handy)
First, I set up fetchmail to check my mail every few minutes, by calling it in
more ~/.fetchmailrc
set postmaster "myusername"
set bouncemail
set properties ""
set daemon 600
poll my.pop3.server with proto POP3
user "mypop3username" there with password "my password" is myusername here
AFAIK, fetchmail has IMAP support too.
fetchmail loops mail from my pop server into my linux box's internal mail system (sendmail)
sendmail is set up to use procmail on my RH6.0 box, anyway, so I didn't need to worry about
Procmail can accept a list of rules for what to do with your incoming mail, _in addition_ to the system wide rules. These are stored in
I added this rule ("recipe") to my ~/.procmailrc
:0c:
$HOME/nsmail/.netscape.mail-recovery
This tells procmail to move a _copy_ of all my system mail (including the external mail looped in by fetchmail) to a file in the netscape mail directory called
This happens automatically whenever mail comes in.
then, I went to Edit/Preferences
Mail&Newsgroups/Mail servers.
I changed the server to (Using MoveMail),
and changed the movemail preference to "using external application"
Now's the tricky bit - netscape calls the external movemail program with a few parameters, which are supposed to tell it to get the mail from
However - procmail's already done that bit! So, we don't need to do it again. I changed the "external movemail program" to "echo" with no parameters, as a sort of dummy command - netscape returns an error if no command at all is present.
So now, when I click on "get mail", netscape goes off and finds a copy of all my mail.
This is dead handy. note that a backup of all the mail could be kept by the procmail recipe (eg.):
:0c:
$HOME/mail.backup
This rather convoluted sounding approach is the one I've found to be by far the most flexible. It allows me to use any combination of mail readers, by distributing copies of all messages between them, and allows me to use procmail's advanced filtering functions. It also neatly gets round netscape's "only one pop3 host" message, and allows me to read all my system internal mail in the comfort of Netscape Messenger.
Note also that, for security, the
There - that wasn't so hard now....
well, i tried to go about sending in a bugreport, it just turned out to be too much work.
m5 on linux/x86 crashed at random times while trying to play utopia, htpp://games.eesite.com/utopia
Assertion failure: 0, at mkgeturl.c:3326
same error everytime it crashes.
thats all i tried to do. if i had more motivation, i guess i would go through all the motions of a real bug report, but its just not as easy as this.
Yep. It's actually the reverse situation that's
(somewhat) true: compiling with Sun Workshop has
lagged the alternatives (but is working).
Because memory leaks are only one instance (and are the trivial instance) of a generalised problem, and GC does nothing to solve the more general problem.
Memory management errors are a pervasive problem. Despite all the hours and hours put into squashing memory leaks in Mozilla, the people working on the project still haven't squashed all of the memory management bugs.
Mangagement of resources other than memory tends to be less pervasive and generally much easier for a human to manage. Memory is a resource that must be managed nearly everywhere.
Memory is also particularly insidious resource to manage since if not managed correctly it corrupts the program in undiagnosible and seemingly random ways.
A member of the Gwydion Dylan compiler volunteer project
Just right click on the hyperlink and select "Open Link in a New Window".
Which person on what project wrote the above statement?:
1. Jim Allchin, Microsoft, Internet Explorer, 1997
3. Jeff Papows, Lotus, Notes, 1998
2. (the dear departed) Jamie Zawinski, Netscape, Mozilla, 1999
Answer: 1.
But the real point is
what compiler and binutils did you use? i've tried a couple of the snapshots without success. they compile fine, but fail at the link stage. it's strange because the .o files do contain the "missing symbols", as verified by nm.
Agreed.
... Mozilla will ultimately handle this (and all other instances of 'HTML torture') with
And
grace. (It's already in the bug database, and
the visual impact makes it appear more severe
than the underlying bug actually is.).
Nothing against the bulk of you post, but I just want to make one point. Uhh, I'm not aware that "anyone" *has* made this suggestion. Certainly no one involved with the project has made any such statement, but perhaps by repetition, some of the "hard core hackers" here will begin to understand what 'alpha' means.
The M5 code is a milestone release of work in progress. It is specifically not feature complete, has been subjected to minimal QA testing, and is not stable in many usage scenarios (see release notes).
I just wish they'd get the font preferences setting to work. The default is unreadable on my screen and that kinda makes testing difficult. Other than the tiny font, it looks good.
Click is about 66% more efficient!
Why is the parent 4? Moderators cheating again?
"Hmm... exactly how many windows /. users are there?"
LOTS AND LOTS - think AstroTurf i.e. microsoft-controlled fake grass-roots campaign. They've been caught doing it before.
Rest assured that MS has a crack team of drones dedicated to reading everything on slashdot + linuxtoday.
Aslo, there's plenty of teenage windows kiddies who are just here to troll, and who may have the stereotypical social ineptitude/maladjustment, but don't have the requisite programming knowledge, to qualify as true computer nerds.
It randomly crashes with SIGBUS when I close a window. WMaker seems to catch the SIGBUS return and spit it on the log.
You know, Mozilla could increase the user and developer base mearly by putting a KDE front end on the current version.
redhat 6.0 uses Glibc 2.1.
It has many many problems with most current programs. Obviously mozilla m5 hasn't been ported to that version of glibc. Just use a pre-compiled version until it is fixed.
It is unfortunate that glibc 2.1 is largly incompatible with glibc 2.0. I must confess that I don't know why the developers choose this path (maybe it has something to do with Unix98)
Beau Kuiper
ekuiperba@cc.curtin.edu.au
Cool..... just went and checked it out...
looks great!!! GO GO GO M5..
Hmm can we get a nice pic. of M. burning up M$ now ? ?
How about letting me define my own keystrokes? Most good Office suites I've used let me do this.
I tried creating a Slashdot account, but couldn't. Too much server load probably.
Anyway, I'm working on XML in Mozilla and had a few comments about your post.
- Yes, it is true that Mozilla does not do DTD based validation. The reason for that is that DTDs are going to be rendered obsolete by the XML schema work happening in the W3C. We chose not to invest resources into developing support for a soon to be outdated standard. As XML schemas get more baked (they just came out with their first working draft), lets work together with the net to get them implemented inside Mozilla.
- The XSL spec is divided into two parts: XSL transformations (XSL-T) and XSL formatting objects (XSL-FO). The current plan is to work with the net to implement hooks inside Gecko for a pluggable XSL-T processor and try to get this work into the 5.0 release. If we are successful, we will be able to update 5.0 with XSL-T support by simply dropping in a DLL that implements XSL-T. Support for XSL-FO is not planned for the 5.0 release. Please email me if you are interested and I'll forward you the deja news link to the thread and you can contribute your ideas there.
Thanks.
Nisheeth
--
Gecko Team Member (Layout, XML, Webshell), Netscape
nisheeth@netscape.com, http://people.netscape.com/nisheeth/
I'm using it under Win98 (apprunner.exe, right?) and while it is a significant improvement over Netscape 4.0, it is still nowhere near as fast as MSIE 5.0. It's impressive, but not enough to make me want to switch back to Netscape.
Sorry, I use what's best, not what's most politically correct.
Like they need me to tell them this..but try and load www.nvidia.com in Mozilla. I thought Mozilla :(
was supposed to have some sophisticated renderer?
I guess that's sophisticated as in "breaks your
current web page".
Can't find a better linux IMAP4 client than
netscape messenger.
Only problem: When NS4.51 crashes, there goes my email.
In the pro/con NS/IE5 it should be mentioned thata browser crash does not take outlook express with it.
So, perhaps running Mozzilla as a browser and NS4.51 messenger for mail will be a good solution...
You still haven't adressed the issue: GC can be added without any development effort. And it DOES help for some types of problems. It isn't an alternative to fixing bugs, it is an addition to fixing bugs, that will reduce the amounts of problems caused by memory leaks you haven't yet found or been able to fix (or that you didn't know exist).
I have the same problem with Slashdot's banners with IE4, IE5, Mozilla M4, and Mozilla M5. You can blame everything on Microsoft...
I address the real, root-cause bugs: inconsistent state.
And GC allows the state of memory allocation/reclamation to be consistent automatically.
Adding an external hack to hide the more benign instances of this bug gains
GC is not a external hack, nor even a hack. It a very useful language technology. As for your second point: Memory management errors are not benign at all.
Hiding bugs doesn't count in my world... fixing them does.
Automatic memory management does not hide bugs. It eliminates a whole class of bugs from even being a possibility.
I believe your supposed to run the mozilla-apprunner.sh program for the main browser interface.. read the release notes before posting!
Just untar anywhere, and then run the run-mozilla.sh file. The window decorations look a little rough, but the rendering is pretty good. The handful of sights I went to all worked, no crashes.
I bet M5 will be a turning point for Mozilla progress.
Milestone 5 (of nine planned until final release) shows that it is time to stop the un/intentional FUD slinged at the Mozilla project by open source supporters. Facts are after the opinion... Then more opinion. Sorry about the length.
:) Thanks for listening.
**************
Major congratulations all who have contributed to the Mozilla project and endless thanks to the Netscape employees ana management who are bending over back-asswards to make this spectacular software happen...
This is the last great hope for humanity to bring open standards, consistency, structure, and freedom to the world wide web. Think that is a grandiose statement? You will support open standards and mozilla and eat your words. Or else we can either suffer at the hands of the Microsoft/Netscape buglists for the next fifty years or much much more.
Let's run this down for the unitiated.
**************
Mozilla is NOT NETSCAPE. Mozilla is Open Source with a very very very liberal license that deserves reading and support (IMHO).
Mozilla is going to consist of two releases. Netscape 5.0 will be built with the mozilla code. This will not be open source, because stuff like a Java machine, SSL, and probably other commercial plugins will come with it. The OTHER RELEASE WHICH YOU WILL BE/ARE ABLE TO HACK ON TO DEATH is the Mozilla.org browser. It will NOT have proprietary crap in it but WILL have JNI (Java Native Interface?) hookups so you can drop THE BEST JAVA MACHINE OF YOUR CHOICE in. Crypto hookups will probably not be in the official codebase for very legitimate legal reasons.
Here's the feature list and a comparison with The Other Browser.
Internet Explorer 5.
*********************
Sort of Javascript.
Sort of Java machine that sucks enormous rocks.
Loads fast. Displays fast. (Pentium only please)
HTML 1,2,3,4 incomplete, majorly buggy in areas.
CSS1 badly incomplete/buggy (mostly unusable).
CSS2 badly incomplete/buggy (unusable).
DHTML badly hacked together with bad bad proprietary behaviors.
MASSIVE BLOAT. Around 30 megs installed for core functionality. 6 meg download minimum.
Exceptionally clean, largely hard-coded UI.
Exceptionally useful mailreader included. (Outlook Express 5)
Brain-damaged XML.
Extraordinarily bad, almost alien DOM.
Mediocre support for XSL, a COMPLETELY INCOMPLETE standard being rammed through the W3C with major assistance by Microsoft. (Perhaps they need features for Office 2000)
Microsoft Windows or certain Macintosh platforms only. (Solaris does NOT COUNT)
Horridly unreliable installation procedure.
Extreme work put into making MS-friendly web-apps, websites, and scripting easy.
Bleeds memory.
PNG broke. But those animated gifs sure are purty. Hyuck.
Integrated with OS to extreme degree.
If not given own process, brings down explorer.exe (MS's "windowing manager" as it were) when it breaks. (every hour or so)
Cost: Free, as long as you write pages to the MS standard please.
Gimmick:feature ratio: 9:3 (channels count for 4, remember those?)
Things done right: User interface and simplicity. Easy to implement interactions with a Windows environment. Usable by many. Quick.
Mozilla + Netscape 5.0 (at release in a few months, most standards complete already)
**********************
COMPLETE REWRITE OF LAYOUT ENGINE AND MOST FUNCTIONALITY.
HTML 1,2,3,4 to-the-spec complete.
CSS1 to-the-spec complete.
CSS2 not promised, but largely functional.
RDF ready to roll.
Dynamic reflow of pages.
To-the-spec Javascript (ECMAscript) complete.
Whichever Java Machine you prefer, or a Netscape licensed one.
Very quick. Lightning quick at most tasks. A vast vast improvement over NS4 and extremely competitive with IE5. A 386 may apply.
Legacy/standard DHTML all ready to roll.
EXTREMELY EFFICIENT. Minimal size. 4 MEGS download for browser and e-mail client prior to optimization.
100% CUSTOMIZABLE CROSS PLATFORM USER INTERFACE. YOU CAN WRITE ONE YOURSELF IN 15 MINUTES! I am an idiot at computers and I have done this myself. Don't want a button or menu? DELETE IT IN MOMENTS. Want something clean? Busy? Animated? Obnoxious? THEMED? Do it in MOMENTS. The technology is completely open, called eXtensible User interface Language (XUL) or something like that. NO BINARIES, JUST TEXT. You will soon be able to ROLL YOUR OWN on the web.
GTK widgetry when used in *nix. NOT ONE SHRED OF MOTIF.
Exceptionally useful Open Source mailreader included.
Precise, to the letter XML.
Precise, to the letter DOM.
Incomplete standards will be included when they are user tested, reliable, and DONE.
Install with whatever method/packaging you prefer. Like the mozilla.org browser? Pull the tarball and COMPILE IT YOURSELF.
Probable ICQ and AOL AIM attached with the NS5 downloads. Highly integrated if installed probably.
As bug-free as YOU WANT IT TO BE. I am a dillweed who couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag and yet bugzilla.mozilla.org let me report and get fixed a bug in the image layout.
Drop in any image format you want thanks to a standardized image processing interface.
Bug-emulation mode for the horrendously shitty IE and NS browsers.
Extremely modular.
It supports a few platforms... Obscure shit, nothing you'd use, like, oh say...
Linux 2.x
Windows 95/98/OSRx/SPx/Mystery Upgrade X
Windows NT
Solaris Whatever Version
IRIX Whatever Version
Amiga Whatever Ya'll Use
OS/2
MacOS
BeOS
*BSD(?) (linux binary hosting?)
These are not promised, they are either complete or in progress.
Oh and if you've got a few buds and a few weeks you can port the mofo to whatever platform your little heart desires. The GRUNT WORK HAS BEEN DONE. Just give XPCOM a place to set it's feet, hook up some shit, and you're done.
Cost: Free. As in beer, freedom, and bug-free.
Things done right: Technically, almost everything. As GOOD AS IT GETS. Light on memory. Light on cycles. Complete from head to toe. Free. Hackable. Yours. Forever.
****************
Okay, let's clear up a few remaining issues some people still have with this WONDER PROJECT.
"But ironhead, JWZ said it sucked and was dead!"
JWZ unnecessarily badmouthed a project that is about as dead as the sun. He's a great guy I suppose, but taking a leak on a technically excellent project sucked and was in bad form. He will use Mozilla and so will you.
"But ironhead, it's a dead project because no-one is hacking it! It's AOL's project!"
Gee, guess OPEN SOURCE is a code word for AOL DevTeam now. It's an INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT PROJECT TO DO RIGHT and NS/AOL has oh-so-graciously spent a small fortune on giving us the great developers who are intelligently crafting greatest software tool you will get to use this decade. So what if only 30 people are actively involved in the code from the outside. A few tens of thousands are helping in every other way. Millions will use it. NeoPlanet is donating developers now. So are other companies soon. THIS IS A GOOD THING.
"But ironhead, it's slow on my Linux box!"
Well gee, guess we should abort it at pre-alpha stage and live with NS4.. It's called debug code, and NOT OPTIMIZED YET.
"But ironhead, lynx is better!"
It's a tool. So is Mozilla. They do not fight. You can install both and they will never do battle. And grandma doesn't use lynx, does she? We've GOT ROOM FOR BOTH, FOLKS. Actually, we've got room for both four times over after we delete NS4.
"But ironhead, it'll come out too late! Microsoft won!"
JESUS CHRIST! Why do I hear this daily? WHERE IS THE INTERNET GOING FOLKS? Is there an expiration date on HTML? XML? SGML? Linux took 9 years, Windows took 9 years, computers took 40 years... This is only taking a year and it's nearing completion. CHRIST! The only thing that the spread of Internet Explorer is doing is lengthening the amount of time it'll take to phase out RETARDED WEB DESIGN.
"But ironhead, CSS1 is dead!"
PLEASE. PLEASE. Get a clue, look at the source of many sites, and look up a word called INTRANET in the dictionary. Why this one is brought up mystifies me.
"But ironhead, Netscape's browsers suck!"
PLEASE. 80% NEW CODE. OPEN SOURCE. YOURS TO HACK. YOURS TO MODIFY. NOT NETSCAPE, YOU. If Mozilla sucks it's because you have NO SKILLS at programming/hacking and are to be LAUGHED AT and you're happy to crash every 5 minutes with Netscape 4.x.
"I like IEx"
Me too, when in windows. Why dontcha write up a XUL interface in about 5 minutes and make a precise clone of it? That doesn't suck? And won't crash?
"But the build I downloaded broke on my favorite page! Mozilla sucks!"
Well let's see here, why would we have a problem with a PRE ALPHA? HMMMMMMM.... It's either a bug in the largely un-hooked-up javascript, bug elsewhere that you need to report to bugzilla.mozilla.org, non-standards-compliant website coding, or something that just ISN'T FINISHED YET. Perhaps we could read the fscking RELEASE NOTES? The layout engine is almost complete and is a work of art. Plus it has compatibility mode to work around Netscape's and Microsoft's horrible bugs.
***************
A few other things: it is NOT DONE YET. NOT DONE YET. IT WILL NEVER BE DONE AS IT IS OPEN SOURCE.
You may spend as much time as you like writing your own 31337 browser, but if you care to save yourself a few years you may use any COMPONENT OF THE COMPONETIZED, OPEN SOURCE mozilla code.
That's all there is folks. Mozilla.org will be great without your support and extraordinary with it. Please keep turning in bugs, please keep testing out the builds, please keep your MOUTH SHUT if you have opinions like "its dead because microsoft killed it and ie5 is better and mozilla sux cuz it loads up slow the first time.", please keep working towards an internet that has solid technology, open standards, and universal accessibility by all. It's time for javascript trix to step. It's time for crashes to step. It's time for Out Of The Spec HTML and CSSx to work PRECISELY. It's time for no more embarassing layout. It's time for NO MORE BROWSER-VALIDATION. (Does it work in ie3, nope, rewrite!) It's time for open source tools that get the job done right. It's time to stop dicking around with pathetic pseudo-standards. It's time for rock-solid internet browsing services on any platform we choose. It's time for cross compatibility, n-th degree customization, easy extensibility, and incremental debugging.
We have been given a great chance by some visionaries at Netscape to do the internet the Right Way and it doesn't matter how many installs of IEx that MS makes up, OPEN STANDARDS WILL WIN! Please download and start exploring/testing, or wait until a final release is made so you can get hacking.
http://www.mozilla.org
http://www.mozillazine.org
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m5/
Sheesh, chapter 2 in the morning.
Bugs like "www.pornwithlotsajavascript.com broke" are really lame and sucky. You have not discovered a bug if a site with a lot of graphical/JS doohickery doesn't work. You have discovered a tacky site that needs features that are yet to be hooked up in Mozilla.
e lines.html
Example: "It's slow loading this page" is weak. "It's slow while rendering a png image inside of a box element, as shown in this test file" is submission worthy.
Please read this and the release notes before some poor gal gets assigned a million bajillion "the toolbar hidey buttons don't work" reports.
http://www.mozilla.org/quality/bug-writing-guid
I've had it explode reliably and cleanly while rendering www.cbc.ca three times in a row now. There are other eccentricities -- looks like it hangs if a page I'm trying to view is already in the cache, for instance, and the handling of JavaScript mouseover twitches is incomplete.
Anyone who tells you to junk your current Win9x browser and use M5 is either delusional or malicious.
On the plus side, M4 threw three fatal-looking errors just starting up on my Win95 machine. M5 starts cleanly and lets me turn off some of the superfluous toolbars. No question that progress is being made, and some pages just fly up on the screen.
Now, if someone would just make it so that the scrollbar thumbs didn't blink. What, are they trying to remind me that I just used them?
Mind the Gap
That was a pre-emptive warning more than anything else, fear not. Sooner or later, some doofus posts on Slashdot advocating just about anything...
Mind the Gap
Please also note that posting complaints, or half formed bug reports do virtually no good in the Slashdot forum besides inflaming troll like feelings or pointing developers in directions that they should not be headed in.
More informed users would be better served by checking out the well written bug reporting documentation located here!
I want to die peacefully in my sleep as my grandfather did...
The release notes say you can't add to or edit your bookmarks. This alone would keep me from trying it out. Can anyone verify this, or is it just old data? I would figure bookmarks would be trivial to implement.
Correction - Java is not a good language for big "user" applications. For big "server" applications it's great.
The layout guys -- including the guy who is responsible for integrating expat into the layout engine -- tell me that expat does handle well-formedness and entities (though maybe not ``PEntities''? What are those?).
In fact, the switch to the expat parser found a pile of well-formedness errors in our XUL files, so I'm pretty sure they're correct. Maybe you need a newer version of expat?
If we've advertised M5 as a beta, I must apologize: it is certainly not beta quality (perhaps not even alpha, as if anyone agrees on what those terms mean) yet.
If anyone out there finds something describing M5 as a beta, please mail webmaster@mozilla.org and we'll get it fixed. Thanks.
M5 is simply the fifth milestone, and will be followed in three weeks by M6. There's no beta here, and I promise that everyone will hear _all_ about it when the first beta is released.
Posted by shaver@netscape.com:
FYI, the esteemed Bruce Mitchener and his many clones produce frequent Purify reports and file dozens of good bugs (with fixes, often) from the results.
There is a garbage collection mechanism in the Mozilla codebase, in the form of the reference counting provided by XPCOM (AddRef/Release, thank MS/DEC COM for the poor names).
The basic problem, as Scott Collins described very well in his posting to mozilla.builds, is one of ownership model (objects owning objects, not people owning code). This problem doesn't go away by using mark-and-sweep or any other GC technique: you still need to have a Grand Plan for which objects root other objects, and which have weak refs, etc.
While all the GC weenies are here, though, I have a question: does the Boehm GC allow weak refs?
In the course of your in-depth investigation, you no doubt discovered that the page in question was authored by Adam Lock, an external contributor.
Speaking for mozilla.org, we really don't mind people using whatever tools they want to write documentation for their contributions. Rumour has it that mozilla needs MS VC++ to compile on Win32, too!
The shame!
I am dying to try this out but the Mozilla developers have made it all but impossible to get Mozilla compiled without Sun's commercial C compiler (GNU tools do not work, spent an afternoon hacking on makefiles and gave up).
...Steve
Agreed, its the main thing missing from Linux dev tools IMHO. I've been asking them to port for a long time, but they need more requests.
And for those who suggest Java, hahahaha. Check out the jdk bug lists on image manipulation memory leaks with java if you really believe that Java will solve all your problems.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
does anyone have a fix for this ?
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
posting from it, and it looks damn cool...
a lot faster, and renders slashdot beautifully...
I've found that 4.51 (glibc version) is more stable and faster under RH 6.0 (glibc 2.1 kernel 2.2.5) than it was under RH 5.2 (glibc 2.0 kernel 2.0.36). That being said, it still crashes or hangs much too often. It seems to work better when you delete history.dat and the clear cache on a regular basis.
--
"L'IT c'est moi!"
Wow....
Wow. I have to give credit where it's due, and in this case it is. The M5 milestone looks like a tremendous and dramatic improvement over previous incarnations of Mozilla.
I'm posting this comment from M5 right now, and apart from a few minor and a few not-so-minor issues with rendering form widgets, everything feels like its coming together.
Communicator 4.51 is a joke. It should never have been considered releasable software for stability reasons. I hope Mozilla can turn that around. M5 is almost as fast as Communicator, and probably (sadly) almost as stable. With a few more releases and some good bug hunting, we might just have a Quick, Reliable, Standards Compliant web browser for Linux.
Imagine that!
-Seth
Wouldn't it be (easier || simpler || faster) to just use Java? Yes, it takes a while to load the classes and the VM, but most Java VM:s out there are very fast and gives a considerable speed push compared to previous versions. That, the XP stuff and a wonderful language is a killer.
War is one of the most horrible things a human can be exposed to. And one of the worlds largest industries.
Use junkbuster - gets rids of ads and such, and solves this problem too.
http://www.junkbuster.com.
-- http://www.wholepop.com/
Whole Pop Magazine Online - Pop Culture
http://www.wholepop.com/
Whole Pop Magazine Online - Pop Culture
I'm getting more and more pumped for this the closer the program comes to completion.
I can't wait until I have a small, fast, clean, lean web browser that still complies with most standards and offers the most important features.
It's great that we're getting back to what counts, losing some of the feature bloat and returning to a really good program.
Great job Mozilla team, keep up the excellent work!
Topher
JWZ was on sabbatical for a while before resigning, so I don't really think he'd been doing much for some months before that. I read several of the netscape.public.mozilla.* newsgroups, and hadn't seen a JWZ posting for months before his resignation. Mike Shaver and other Mozilla staff were quite visible during that time. Frankly, while JWZ's departure was the end of an era, I don't think it really mattered to Mozilla development, since it had been getting along without him for a while.
For what its worth we use a tool called "purify" to combat memory leaks (and overruns and uninitialized memory reads etc.). I have literally seen bugs that might have taken hours or days to ferret out found in minutes using that tool and it is available on platforms other than just windows (we use it mostly on solaris). It is very, very hard to create a non-trivial application that is completely clean - in fact even the best applications typically have bits of naughtiness that are going to be exceedingly difficult to completely eliminate unless you have a programmatic way of identifying them. I've written the folks who make purify before and they're not planning a linux port at the moment - perhaps that'll change in time. If you'd like to lend you voice to convince them to port this great tool to our great OS here's the url: http://www.rational.com/products/purify_unix/index .jtmpl
there are two kinds of people in this world - those who divide people into two groups and those who don't
Have a look in the README file in the directory you have to download M5 from:E ADME
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m5/R
It states clearly:
This directory contains precompiled binaries of Mozilla.
These are pre-alpha. They are not thoroughly tested.
If that is advertising their product as a beta then they need a new advertising department.
If you want to comment on this release get your facts straight first.
--
Has anyone built M5 on the Alpha? I've built previous releases here at orangesherbert (and in fact, this post is coming from an older Motif-based Mozilla), but I'm short on HD space and don't have room to build M5 right now. So has anyone else? Does it work better than M3/M4? Is there a cache? :)
-- Rick
Perhaps ALT-N would work. The linux version of communicator 4.5 and probably all versions use the alt key for things like this. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the same in the windows version, but don't thinkj there isn't (or won't be in the final version) a way to do this kind of thing with the keyboard. What made you think that mozilla would use the same combos as IE5?
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
i was having a couple problems at first.
the first time it stopped, i just ran it again, and then it stopped again a little further, and then i ran it again, then it finaly stoped on the editor. i can't remember the exact error, so i just ran configure again with the --disable-editor option, then ran it again, and it went without a hitch. Ran apprunner and viewer and it works fine.
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
try x86rel/apprunner.exe
---
Just wanted to point out that now there's a jazilla binary (win32 for now) at ftp://ftp.jazilla.org/pub/windows-native-exe/ Also interesting is this project to embed gecko in a java canvas: http://members.cts.com/sd/k/kbaker/
---
including keyboard shortcut "themes" to make it easier for those coming from IE or Opera or whatever
---
please submit the bug report (but I tried cbc.ca and had no problems.
---
>> You still haven't adressed the issue
I don't want to sound rude, but I think I have.
I address the real, root-cause bugs: inconsistent state.
Adding an external hack to hide the more benign instances of this bug gains me nothing, I'm curing a trivial symptom and leaving the cause way open. Hiding bugs doesn't count in my world... fixing them does.
I use a heap walker to show me a list of memory leaks, but I don't then just add a loop to free them all - I want to know what logic faults left them there.
If you want to continue the chat (it is rather OT) then feel free to mail me
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
Trying not to troll but...
The original poster goes on to state that "he's just repeating what he's heard" - he makes claims about code quality when he states twice he can't code, he makes claims for compatibility or lack thereof and then admits he doesn't know what he's talking about, and he launches personal attacks on anyone criticising his rambling logic.
Someone moderate it down to -1, please. I don't doubt it's well intentioned, but MS mis-information is bad enough, I'd hope we can not lower ourselves to that level round here.
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
>> I really can't understand why anyone would like to punish themselves by not using a GC.
Because memory leaks are only one instance (and are the trivial instance) of a generalised problem, and GC does nothing to solve the more general problem.
The real problem is (I'm going to say objects, but this applies equally to non-OO code, just terminology) when two objects disagree over state. A memory leak is just a single case (one thinks it's free, the other doesn't), but the real serious problems occur when objects aren't initialised, they're initialised twice, they're not saved, they have poorly designed "flux states", they don't notify changes properly, they blindly propogate changes throughout the object-space, etc.
GC does absolutely nothing for this, and, more importantly, no GC "Band-Aid" techniques help with these problems, so I try to write code (and debug) to fix the general problem: the memory leaks are the trivial case - easiest to detect and simplest to fix.
Find me any production program where memory leaks are "the biggest code problem", and I'll show you a project which doesn't even realise where they've really got problems.
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
Z.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
You can install gtk+-1.1 and gtk+-1.2 without it having any effect on your current installation. You need to *keep* the version you already have though ( use rpm -i to install the new ones, NOT rpm -U ) The newer versions have different so-names ( so the linker knows the difference between the different versions of gtk )
-- Donovan
I really hope that this moves the web browser arena forward. There are no adequate web browsers for Linux at this point; Communicator 4.xx is some of the most unstable software I have ever run on a Linux box. Konqueror dosen't support CSS. Gnome MC just plain sucks. I'm left with Lynx. At least it dosen't crash and renders CSS correctly.
It sure would be nice to be able to run that QNX web browser on Linux...
Blah, 40 minutes left. Gotta get me a DSL...
> Milestone 5 (of nine planned until final release)
M9 is the current plan for the first public BETA, not the final release.
Yes, there are lots of newsgroups (described at http://www.mozilla.org/community.html)
Your problems are the sorts of things discussed in netscape.public.mozilla.builds
IE5 CSS support is just enough to hurt yourself with. That is, it lets you do a lot of things, but doesn't let you do everything you should be able to. Unfortunately, since these specs are never documented, it becomes difficult to tell if the error is in your own coding of a stylesheet, or in the implementation in IE.
A good article on IE 5's css support is available.
This goes for every other incomplete implementation of CSS in release browsers. Incomplete is just a subset of wrong.
pooptruck
"It has many many problems with most current programs. Obviously mozilla m5 hasn't been ported to that version of glibc. Just use a pre-compiled version until it is fixed."
1) The only thing that glibc-2.1 really breaks (at compile time) is yacc's output (because it's a lovely file pointer = STDIN, STDOUT, etc)..
2) It DOES break some binary compatibilty though... if anything. pre-compiled binaries would have much more trouble then compiling the code.
"It is unfortunate that glibc 2.1 is largly incompatible with glibc 2.0."
How is it? It uses versioned symbols.
That would incluide telling us in the documentation or the release notes exactly which sections of mozilla are expected to ccmpile, and which ones don't. I end up doing 3-4 compiles until I get a ./configure setting that works.
Lynx is one of the best web browsers there is. It supports SSL, so it's better for e-commerce than most commercial browsers available (internationally).
I ate something that disagreed with me. Maybe I should have cooked him first.
I have no idea what milestone 5 means. 20 minutes on the mozilla site didn't help. I remember a good description of M1, but I haven't seen any since. I'd sure like to know if this is worth downloading, but I don't have a clue what's in it.
Anyone?
Does this work ? Looks like it.
Good work guys.
Remember Javagator? Java is not a good language for big applications.
Well I don't know exactly how much of a coding brain you have to be to get it up and running in win32 but I ran every executable I could and if there is any semblance of a browser in there I wasn't able to find it. maybe my expectations are a little high or I'm under the incorrect understanding that there is actualy a workable version of Mozilla browser out. I (personaly) was not impressed with what was available so far.
If at first you don't feel good.... suffer like the rest of us.
I cannot get Mozilla M5 to compile on my Red Hat 6.0 system. Apart from the thousands of compiler warnings I get, it eventually gives up. Any ideas why?
Sure, it's probably way down on their list of priorities, but not being able to CTRL-N for a new window or CTRL-O to open up a box for me to type in a new URL means that I end up playing around with these new releases for maybe 20 minutes before returning to the ease of IE. I know for sure I'd be more willing to use it for longer stretches if I didn't have to reach for the mouse to get just about anything done.
FWIW, M5 blew up on me within the first 3 minutes that I was trying it out. And no, I wasn't trying any funky pages -- only Example2 and goto.com -- and I had no other apps running at the time. Please tell me that the bug situation is better than this, especially when there's so much still missing. (And yes, I was a good little trooper and let it send my system info to mozilla.org after the crash.)
Random note: "M5" looks a lot like "MS" at 4:15am.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Using ALT instead of CTRL for action combos on the Win32 versions would be a disastrous mistake, because everybody and their sister expects to use CTRL for them (ALT combos being used to access the menu bar). As for why I would expect N or O to be used for New and Open, that's because every version of Netscape and IE that I've used, on every platform on which I've used them, have used those two. Why would they annoy users by changing these?
As far as the final version, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the CTRL combos will be present. I was just throwing out a suggestion that they start coding them in (I would think that it'd be one of the simpler coding tasks in the entire project), so that some of us keyboard-oriented users could start racking up a lot more usage, helping them iron out bugs in the process.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Why not come with a standard set of keyboard combos that everyone is used to, letting them change it if they want to? Who the hell wants to go through all the combinations to have to set their own? Lemme guess, you enjoy hand-editing your XF86Config file, right?
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Lets all mail rational and see if we can get them to port some of there products to Linux..
Here is the person I dealt with, send a polite email expressing your interest in their products and hoping they get ported to Linux. (If you are interested in there products.)
Franco, Kathryn
For what its worth, I found netscape crashes much less if you "downgrade" to the libc5 version, no matter what your system uses. On my redhat6 box, Netscape 4.08 libc5 version crashes exceptionally rarely, if at all. The libc6 4.51 that came with RH6 crashed on my daily. I hope this helps.
Every time I test a Mozilla build, my third test page is microsoft.com to fool around a bit and leave Mozilla traces in their logs, just to show that Netscape is far from dead. They check their logs for sure.
Go to bugzilla.mozilla.org and file a bug report. I've reported a dozen rendering bugs and the Mozilla developers have been very keen about fixing these "minor" bugs. Rock on!
cpeterso
ftp://ftp.digiforest.com/mirrors/mozilla-m5/ ( link )
25 users because I've never mirrored something and posted the URL to slashdot before. If things go well and I don't get attacked I might mirror other things as well. It's a dedicated, Bay-compressed, PtP T3. Have fun.
And read the release notes!
R.
Mmmmm. Fresh code.
OK, so it still has lots of bugs. But it sure looks good. I'll be switching my primary browser to Mozilla by M6 or M7, if development continues at this rate.
Sweet mother of god, I tried out Lynx v2.8 based on this post, and was quite impressed indeed. The last version of lynx I used was on VMS a year ago. It didn't support cookies, choked on wierd HTML, yadda yadda yadda. Sweet! A fast, stable browser! Man this is nice.
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
When Ie5 crashes on my NT box, it never takes the shell with it.
It does crash though, at least every day. Almost as much as Netscape 4 did on Linux.
Mike
Hey hey hey, as much as I don't like supporting M$ products, spreading FUD about IE5 isn't going to help. CSS1 generally works fine. The DOM is proprietary but it DOES work, and the W3C DOM spec doesn't look all that different from IE's. Hard coded UI, but IE5 does allow you to customize the button bar. As far as I've seen, PNG is not broken.
Granted, IE is a winzode product, and it does support many proprietary things. Overall, however, it runs much better than Netscape (read:not mozilla) 4.51 under Linux.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
I can crash Netscape 4.51 under Linux simply by cutting text out of a web page and trying to paste it into a mail message. I'm used to doing a SHIFT-INS to paste, and this can hang it so that I have to kill it via xterm. That, and just random hangs.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Maybe CmdrTaco could grep through the logs tonight to see how many people downloaded and ran this M5 release and then pointed it at slashdot (renders okay here, and not noticably slower than in Nav451 -- not bad for a debug build). That might be interesting you're into useless statistics like me.
P.S. What's the deal with the subliminal messages that float past in the animated mozilla logo? Stuff like 'all for you' and 'good' seem to pop up (but too quickly for me to read properly). Am I being brainwashed?
Mozilla rocks... i do not NEED to say any more as all i need to say has been said by others!
;)
;-)
But what puzzles me is the number of people saying Netscape crashes tooo much...
I use 4.51 on Windows and 4.5 on linux, and both NEVER crash on me.... could someone point where I am going wrong
IE on the other hand......(i sometimes run both browsers, and its really comical when IE barfs, causing the shell to restart WHILE netscape continues to load the page its loading... despite the shell has all but dissapeared for a few seconds!)
my 2 pence (i am english
No, not ironic...
That page is designed for the Mozilla Active X control, showing mozilla running as a control under IE (yes... its true!!! it does that)
since IE is the only browser that supports Active X, and there FPE allows web designers to insert them easily.... thats all it is..
More likely, that page has been "Cut and Pasted" from another "public" page as a template
I totaly agree with you. I don't say that that it would be a good idea for Mozilla to use GC, but after having worked with serveral languages with builtin GC I really can't understand why anyone would like to punish themselves by not using a GC.
Sure, a bad implemented GC is a pain in the *** but most modern implementations aren't that bad. And with todays computers, the small amount of overhead is really worth the robustnes you gain.
Hooked on
Given the ubiquity of memory leaks, why don't more programs use garbage collection? The idea being not to rely on garbage collection, but to let it clean up after your mistakes, because you can't find them ALL. The Boehm-Demers-Weiser conservative garbage collector is such a package for C/C++. (And before everyone jumps all over GC, please read this portion of the GC faq)
It's just an impression, but it's kinda funny. After reading all the arguments pro and against Internet Explorer 5 and NS 4.51 on Windows, I couldn't help but think :
"Hmm... exactly how many windows
People that have been on the Linux bandwagon for a long time know that good things take time and experimentation. Even the lynx browser wasn't written in one day after all
Come on people, let's focus on how to make things better rather than complaining that they aren't good. Long live Mozilla !
I've gotten the following for M5 and the previous few nightly builds:
/usr/lib/libgdk_imblib.so.1: undefined symbol: gdk_root_parent
Gtk-WARNING **:
Now, where do I find info on that? Tried submitting bugs: was a nightmare. Are there newsgroups for more casual situations?
-K
I guessed that part of the problem was that I needed to delete the old ~/.mozilla. No fix. Interesting, though, that m5 works when I run it as root.
Maybe a permission somewhere...
Wish there were a newsgroup for this...
-K ()
Mozilla rocks
dr First Post!-MUAAAAARGH! *flush* *gurgl
"If you need a little chuckle, or just need to see something strange, then read this. In order to see this you will need to download the new Mozilla M5. Go into the directory you unzipped it to, and follow this path:
\x86rel\res\MozillaControl.html
This should open up your browser. Right click the middle of the page and click View Source or whatever you need to click to see the source code of the page. The generator tag said the page was made with Microsoft Frontpage Express 2.0. Even amidst all of the browser wars, Netscape developers must still prefer IE and its components to their own Netscape. Strange, isn't it?"
Note: Stolen from betanews.com
Shortly after I emailed the link to d/l M5 to some friends, one replied with a link to JWZ's resignation. I guess he thought that JWZ leaving meant the death of Mozilla. Tell me if I'm off-base, but here's how I replied:
Losing Zawinski was a great punch in the stomach for Mozilla, but I think by no means is it dead. I think after Mozilla gets over this rocky stage, it will flourish. Here's why:
1. The code is just now becoming something presentable. Too much code done internally made it hard to follow in early releases.
2. People won't contribute until there is something there. I think that the nearer and nearer that Mozilla gets to their target, the more and more people will jump on board. The organization will probably explode when they release the final product, and the general public sees how good it is.
3. Milestone 5 was reached and released yesterday, without Zawinski. Life will go on.
I just thought I would also share my insight with all of you. Let me know your opinion, and thank you for your time. BTW, I am running M5 from my office on Windows NT, and it is pretty cool.
-NG
+--
Given infinite time, 100 monkeys could type out the complete works of Shakespeare.
+-- (Score:-1, Moderator on Power Trip)