Slashdot Mirror
BBC on Gnome & Interview Miguel
Evil Greeb writes "The BBC have written a fairly pro-Linux article, citing Gnome as "the operating system which could loosen Microsoft's stranglehold on the market". I thought it was a desktop environment myself, but that's not the issue: Linux promotion is! The page includes an audio snippet of Miguel de Icaza on Gnome. " Excellent-now if my Gnome-session would just run properly.
Does Qt have C bindings? If not, that would probably be the most important difference. I guess it's countermatched by Gtk's poor C++ bindings (good but not up to Qt's native support by any means, from what I've heard).
On another note, I learned Python this weekend, and Tk makes my teeth grind, so I'm not going to bother learning too much of it (it looks pretty easy, though). I'd prefer to learn pygtk (I think it's prettier than Qt, but that's just me; I don't even have Qt installed anymore), but there's no tutorial. Learning it, unfortunately, relies on the assumption that you already understand how to use gtk in C, which I don't. Folliwing the source examples can only teach so much (I still can't add 2 buttons!). A nice, beginner's tutorial would be excellent, but this whole paragraph is slightly off topic.
Why not try wxPython? This can run on top of gtk+ as well as Win32 (if you care).
AFAIK, Qt does not have C bindings per se, but there is something like that available. But of course, this comes at a cost: if you are running no C++ application except KDE/Qt/whatever, then all the dynamic C++ library will get pulled into memory just for KDE.
Of course, Gnome has the same problem with the C library, but it is near to impossible not to have the C library paged into a running Linux system, anyhow.
Is getting Linux in the news so important that it must be done at the expense at bashing a project like KDE? Sorry, I don't think the means justify the end, whatever the end is in this case.
So, would the GNU/Linux or plain ole Linux debate follow over to the Gnome OS (oh wait, that's not an OS!). Would it be called GNU/Linux/Gnome or Gnome/Linux/GNU, or even GNU/Gnome/Linux or GNU-Gnonix! Wow, say that last one fast three or four times!
I understand that the majority of people that article was written for is people used to the whole Win3.1/9x/NT/1.9k (or is that 2k), and they wouldn't understand the difference between an OS and desktop environment. But please, try to come a little closer to the truth right there, even calling it Gnome-Linux or something like that is closer.
It's a silly point, but if the OS were called GNOME, there wouldn't be a problem anyway. The G in GNOME stands for GNU, so it would be redundant anyway.
Still hoping we'll go back to calling the whole thing Freeax!
And it was of him yawning.
Not the best picture they could've chosen.
Where did you get the idea that E is a part of GNOME? It's not. That's why there are two gtk-based, GNOME-compliant, tiny window managers being developed right now. Head over to gnome.org. They're for people who don't want all the flashiness of E but want to use a gnome-compliant window manager. And I've gotten blackbox to work fine as gnome-compliant.
yes...those RPMs are of the latest released gnome software.
c ore-1.0.5.tar.gz
ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/gnome-core/gnome-
Ofcourse KDE rocks, but why did kwm have to be so butt-ugly.
I know you could run e on top of kde, but that kind of defeats the purpose of kde.
Ah well, gnome doesn't do much better, yesterday I couldn't work for almost an hour because the panel kept on giving me a segfault, which I traced to a corrupted menu item.
First off, KDE is __NOT__ built on top of MICO. They do not include MICO as part of the environment.
KOffice is built on top of MICO.
And though MICO may be featureful, it's also god awful slow. MICO has been benched at over 4ms per call, whereas other implementations (such as OmniORB) have it under 1ms.
I'm not aware of any formal benchmarking of ORBit at this time, but it was build with speed as a primary concern. (The GNOME folks having tossed out the work they did with MICO on speed considerations and difficulty in creating alternate language bindings.)
What "difficulty in creating alternate language bindings" for MICO? ORBIT doesn't even have a C++ binding yet! On top of that, still no support for most of the standard CORBAServices that MICO supports, such as the trader (which KDE uses quite effectively).
This is a great article. It doesn't talk about how ``GNOME is trying to take over Windows,'' but gives a factual representation that only says GNOME is a good way to avoid the command line, which it is. I guess the KDE bashing is OK too.
What we need is a GUI, API, libraries environment that at least suck less than Windows 1.0. Maybe some other organization can devout the resources to make something like this happen, because their is a heck of a lot more code to be forged in a GUI than the kernal. An it appears to be a project larger than a leasing agents enterprise can handle. Can someone like Corel or SGI please sponsor something like this?
I notice you are a member/advocate for UKUUG. I were a person of some standing in the UNIX community and went to a newspaper and said "UKUUG is a shitty UG and their members all smell. It will die a grim death," sure I'm speaking my mind, but I would also have to deal with the consequences of a) mouthing off without good reasons to back it up a) loss of respect for having misused my reputation for whatever personal problems I may have with UKUUG
(not that I have any, I'm sure it's a perfectly good UG).
Miguel has to deal with both of these, as does the GNOME project for allowing their leader these leniencies since when he speaks as leader of GNOME, he speaks also for every GNOME developer. I wonder if he's man enough to realize this. Or maybe he does realize this, and just enjoys these little games of his... or maybe he has decided that GNOME cannot compete with KDE technically and this is the only way to try and beat it? I don't know, maybe Miguel will clarify it for us someday.
The free press is the press which has wildly clashing opinions. The free speech is there for the expression of differences. The free market lets the market dynamics fight and sort themselves out at a microscopic level.
Freedom is about permitting differences instead of prohibiting them.
So there is no surprise that free software exhibits wildly different approaches, opinions, people.
They both are improving the system! That's the beaty of it, let them bicker, that way they'll strive both to make the best, and in the end we all get the benefits...
We are talking about GUI's, there are already a dozen API's. Who'd thought something like the GIMP could be open source? Think before you speak, now go bash the politicians!
It's very rude to brag about your salary in a public forum. I'm sure there are people visiting slashdot who contribute far more while making much less. No one cares how much fun you have gloating over your paycheck while some former football hero pumps gas. It just shows you've gone from being a "loser" in high school to being a shallow, arrogant jerk in the real world.
gnomecc, panel, gnumeric, .... Maybe you should search for ORBit.h at the GNOME CVS repository search page.
Sorry, I meant ok as in ``not as good as the rest of the article.'' It would be like someone saying ``I saw Star Wars; it was OK...'' Sorry.
GNUME, or maybe GNO/GNUME?
Just had to mention one point: Open Source projects are abandoned at least as often as commercial projects are. It is all too common for a project to bog down and quit advancing.
:)
In this particular case I would definately agree KDE isnt going to die anytime soon. While C is probably more popular in hobbyist circles, C++ just about owns the professionals (including me
As a "leader of the GNOME project", Miguel should take a little more responsibility about public talk. I was starting some serious development for GNOME, but this scares me away.
I don't want to work for a project with a leader pulling such stunts just to gain attention and draw developers/users to "The One True Desktop-standard" - which it apparently isn't. I can't believe Miguel has sunken so deep to bash other free projects, to market them out of his way.
This puts a really bad taste to GNOME.
-jek
"It is very rude to brag about your salary in public" etc. etc.
As a second-year student of psychology, I would like to offer my views on this comment. It is quite plain to see that this gentleman (I have deduced from his mannerisms and the composition of his words that he is indeed male) is offended by Mr. Ruff's comments, for the simple fact that he makes much less than 100,000$ per year. From this, his blatant discomfort with Mr. Ruff's salary, it is my belief that Mr. Anonymous believes whatever work he does is worth far more than what he currently makes (he is most likely a gas station attendant.) It is also quite possible that Mr. Anonymous believes we are all entitled to the same wealth. What we have here folks.. is a possible 'communist pump-jockey'.
WHen I saw my first screenshots fo kde beta .3 and gnome I thought gnome was the answer and kde was to corporate looking. I tried bith but gnome lacked alot of features and then some time passed and gnome got less and less stable and e/gnome was a nightmare on my machien when version 1.0 and .14 of e were together. I had inet set to 5 so it booted into the gui and it got soo screwy that I had to reformat my drive (ok I was too lazy and cheap to buy a diskette and make a boot disk) and reinstall linux.
Then kde 1.1 came out and it looked a hell of alot better and I tried qt and fell in love with it. ITs so clean and gtk is hard to learn. I do miss cobra support. The main problem with kde is it seems to be discouraging me from doing anything in the command prompt or anything techie. The kbrowser is in my face constantly and is a little primptive looking but powerfull. Kde tries to redo everything thats unix like ppd=kde dialer and emacs=kde edit. This is good news for linux and for new users but if I wented something nice and easy to use, I would of bought an imac. Anyway gnome on the other hand is more technical but has a perfect balence for ease of use but is buggy. Gtk documention lags and the tools are behind kde 1.1.1 like kmp3 and kdevelop can beat gide anyday. If we can merge the cobra support and put the kfm into gnome replace the gmc (or micro. I forgot whats its called) we could have a quick ass enviroment. The problem with browser (gmc or mic. I got to look it up) is its very single threaded and all the gnome apps count on it. This means if it crahses, then all the gnome apps go with it. Even windows95 is mroe stable when a 32-bit app crashes it wont bring down the os or gui. Gnome should do the same. ALso the kwm like active desktop can read web pages and is very intergrated with the web. We need more of this in gnome. I heard that the 2 teams are working together form some compadibleity in some areas. Perhaps the 3.0 versoin of kde and gnome will support these things and merge together. We need to come together and not be seperated apart with non compadibilites like the windows world. Openess is why I switched to windows. I wonder how hard ti would be to make a hybrid.
Why the hell would KDE people want to work with someone who is constantly spreading FUD and saying their hard work will die.
I find it amusing that you say there are not deadlines for these projects then accuse KDE (which has had very stable releases in comparasion to Gnome) of rushing deadlines? It was discussed in Gnome-hackers about how Gnome 1.0 was not ready but had to be released anyways for maximum exposure at LinuxWorld, and everyone was against it (including Alan Cox), except Miguel.
I would point you to an URL but it seems Miguel removed the public archives of the list not long after Gnome1.0...
At least KDE does not make major releases they know are unstable for marketing reasons.
This is just the latest in a series of highly public interviews in
prominent mainstream publications spanning several months
in which Miguel has either:
a. deliberately lied about the difference between Gnome and
Linux and about Linux not having a gui prior to Gnome,
OR
b. failed to correct such misperceptions by reporters who don't
know better, with full knowledge that the reporters have been
misinformed and would publish such misinformation. As this has already
happened several times before, one would think that Miguel
would go out of his way to make sure such misinformation is
not published yet again, and that the reporter would also want
that to avoid making himself look incompetent.
Probably, some of both. It has happened too many times in
interviews with this particular individual to be a coincidence.
While there may sometimes be some misinformation in such
mainstream interviews with other prominent figures in the
"community", never to this degree and so consistently.
Not a nice thing for me to say, but I am a little tired of this.
We may be dealing with a compulsive liar here, and there are
such people. Can't help themselves.
I suggest that Miguel get some counseling or advice from a
more mature individual - family member or friend, and take a
proctor with him on the few interviews. Someone to remind him
to think about what he is saying, or to remind the interviewer that
he may get off on a tangent and to ignore that remark.
Sooner or later this will lead to a very embarrassing situation,
for Miguel, if it hasn't already. This has already embarrassed
the Linux communuity and I now feel that Miguel has been one
of the main sources of the badmouth against a competing Linux
desktop environment all along.
Miguel, you have been warned. Save yourself from further
embarassment or worse by seeking help before it is too late.
.
Hmmmm, didnt Slashdot mention the GNOME-t-shirt ...
when it was released? Seems they missed the KDE-t-shirt
(Of course they would never ever play favourites
to make this stupid KDE-GNOME-flamewar worse
no, never!)!
The Official KDE Mascot T-Shirt is ready for
download! Get it here:
http://www.kde.org/kde-stuff.html
The design features the KDE mascot Konqi (the cute
little dragon) and the Gear Logo.
... if he quits Gnome. :(
This kind of destructive FUD towards an other OSS project makes even some Microsoft marketing strategies look pale and and fair by comparison
Both of the above replies miss the point.
CORBA usage does not mean components.
The way Gnome uses CORBA, it is just a kind of universal scripting engine, and does not achive much more than, say, Window Maker applets.
Having a real component based system allows to embed parts of apps into other apps. KOffice is the only OSS case which allows this in a proper way, IMHO.
Gnome has not even finished their own object model Baboon, not to mention employed it in many apps like KDE did with KOM/OpenParts.
It's an alternate filemanager for KDE, not web browsing, lean, and fast.
---
That's more or less nonsense.
The main problem with MICO was the compilation with gcc. This was slow, needed enormous amounts of RAM (128MB), as gcc couldn't handle C++ features efficiently (or at all).
With egcs this has drastically improved.
Moreover, there are other, faster ORBs like OmniOrb, and proven ORBs like TAO. MICO was designed for stability and standards compliance, not 'prematurely optimised'
I can't help assuming that ORBit was mainly a product of inflated egos and the NIH (not-invented-here) syndrome, than a rational decision.
I agree with you...if someone on the KDE team had boasted on the BBC about how 'Gnome has no future' there would be no end of the wailing and gnashing of teeth here on SlashHat.org. No one would be saying "hey KDE is speaking it's mind!", they'd all be crying foul. Then the foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics would appear yammering about how KDE is bad and "Qt is not free! Qt is not free!" and how the evil TrollTech is trying to take control of Linux.
Of course, since SlashHat.org has a blatantly pro-RedHat/Gnome agenda, Rob Malda tried to present this despicable BBC article in a positive way as being 'pro-Linux', without even mentioning Miguel's bullshit slurs against KDE. Big surprise. And then a large number of SlashHat regulars DEFEND Miguel's 'right' to slander another project publicly with out an ounce of evidence (and it's not the first time, either).
You won't get any kind of balanced viewpoints here on SlashHat.org. The agenda here is very clear. KDE need not apply.
(how come SlashHat ignored the KDE T-shirt announcements, but were first with the Gnome T-shirt announcements?)
To anyone that wants real discussion and timely Linux news, I recommend linuxtoday.com. You'll get real 'news for nerds' and 'stuff that matters' there, instead of endless editorials, and newspieces about Lego Mindstorms.
Oh and just a little message to Miguel: watch what you say, it will come back to haunt you. Your public stunts have not gone unnoticed by the rest of the world (ie non-Slashdotters). Every time you open your mouth, you blacken Gnome's image further. I highly recommend that the Gnome team DROP Miguel as a leader...he's doing you no favours, folks.
And one final message to Rob Malda:
If you still claim your site is vendor-neutral then you have a long way to go to actually prove it. So far, you haven't. Slashdot leans heavily towards Redhat and Gnome, and your biases show in just about every article you post. And you know what? You're losing readers. I used to be a regular here on Slashdot, but your continual editorial slant in so-called 'news' items turned me away.
(and here's where some idiot will accuse me of being a part of the pro-KDE camp, or some nonsense.)
I'm sorry. I said "as I've heard" because I obviously have no first-hand experience, as you can tell by my solitation for pygtk help. As usual, just another Anonymous Coward spouting out what he's heard on Slashdot. If the bindings are good, great!
I've recently made available a nice beginners tutorial for Qt/KDE and Python - you'll find it at my website (http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/python/tutorial.ht ml). Personally, I prefer the Qt widget set to the GTK one, but it's no big deal - both are infinitely better than XForms or Motif...
The object-orientedness of Qt translates really well to working with Python and I've never been so productive (nor had so much fun programming) in any language/interface as when I decided to go for KDE and Python.
Boudewijn Rempt
(boud@rempt.xs4all.nl)
I just had to comment that bonobo is supposed to be ready for developers, and that their are rpms of gnumeric with bonobo support available. Not like anyones gonna read this though. If their is, post a reply, and il tell you were to get those rpms
About the comments on Miguel bashing KDE I want to clarify something: Didn't Linus himself bashed Windows and MS publicly at some industry show?
If so, then why are people so upset about Miguel making similar remarks?
Whenever I dream at night that gnome might be a better choice, I only need to check in the www in the morning - and I'll inevitably stumble into some gnomist-statement (usually by MdI) to reassure me about the conceitedness and arrogance of this project. I really don't like Qt much (technically and licensially) but KDE are just nice guys and that counts, too.
I found these new RPMs, they work great:
. 0/contrib-updates/
/usr/src/redhat/RPMS/i386/NEWRPMFILE(s)
ftp://ftp.inconnect.com/pub/unix/linux/redhat-6
Here is the README
=======
RedHat isn't always the speediest at releasing general RPM updates
unless there is a security hole.
Because of that, here are updated RedHat-6.0 rpms that use the spec
files from RedHat modified to use the new version. Any RedHat patches
included in the orignal rpm have been updated/checked/discarded if need be.
The idea is to have these updated RPMs built how RedHat would've built them.
I built these on a RedHat 6.0 box (glibc 2.1), so if you have RedHat 5.x (glibc2.0)
you might want to get the SRPM file instead and do:
rpm --rebuild SRPMFILE, and then rpm -Uvh
Lastly, it seems some gnome apps get a little testy when the find configs from
older versions. gnome-session and gmc are good examples. After you upgrade the RPMs
if you have problems ("core" files, weirdness, etc), delete the old configs and let the
new software recreate updated configs. For example, on one of my boxes I had to do:
rm -rf ~/.gnome/sess*
rm -rf ~/.gnome/gmc*
Dax Kelson
=========
: At least on /., the GNOME/KDE flamewars finally : cool off and then Miguel has to go and say : stupid something like this! :(
Bah. He stated his opinion. He's allowed to do that, isn't he? Just because his opinion touches a hot topic, should we put him under a gag order?
If that's the case places like slashdot should be shut down entirely. Sorry, I'm just tired of people tiptoeing around afraid to speak because they might be branded "offensive".
Can you tell I've been reading Neal Stephenson?
Yes, Qt has C bindings, it's called QtC. The only thing I know about it is that nobody uses it, because C++ is better for GUI programming than plain C. IMHO the only importance of QtC is the fact that it shows that Qt can have as many bindings as gtk.
As a note to that loading of C++ libraries, I don't think that loading 0.25MB library in memory can have significant performance impact on the system ( yes, my stripped libstdc++ is 0.25MB ). Moreover, not all the dynamic C++ library will get pulled into memory, only those parts of it that are needed.
I just don't understand how they dare to put words 'modest Miguel' just few lines above all the FUD.
"It started off as a component model," says Miguel, "So you could write small modules to build bigger applications, but the GUI thing just took off."
Is it me, or has GNOME never been based around "component model"? I have yet to see an application that uses CORBA for GNOME. GNOME was always based around GTK+/glib. Their purpose was "KDE was not free".. so GNOME was born. They always had the GUI in mind. It didn't "just take off". Miguel makes it sound as if GNOME was really a Network Object Model Environment long before they used GUI. This is pure BS.
I'm not even going into the other statement that disrespects KDE authors. Many people have already picked up on that.
He was GNU/Yawning!
*wheee!*
'"I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet and it's bound to a single programming language in Unix. Gnome from the very beginning has been accessible through any language. We are providing the GUI for all the languages and programmers can choose the language they like the most," says Miguel'
Has he been horribly misquoted, or did he _really_ mean this?? Since when has Gnome been accessible through Fortran? Each system is authored in one core language (C or C++) with bindings at various levels for other languages (Perl, Python, etc). Geez.. Maybe more of the Gnome API is available to more languages, but that hardly makes the above comment accurate.
There are two big pieces to a desktop environment, that distinguish it from a window manager.
It has a set of UI guidelines that conformant programs follow as closely as possible.
For example, on Win95, hitting Alt-F4 will kill just about any Windows applictation, and every menu bar has to have a File option -- these are the sorts of things that Windows applications are (theoretically) required to follow.
It has a set of guidlines for exposing component interfaces that conformant programs follow as closely as possible.
The advantage of having a component architecture is that it makes it *much* easier to script programs (because the scripting language bindings become simple to implement), and because it makes it easier for programmers to allow different programs to interact. For example, a programmer writing a word-processor could let users put charts into a document whose appearance is dynamically calculated from the spreadsheet, without knowing how the spreadsheet is implemented -- all he needs are the component interfaces. Think of it as Unix pipes on steroids and growth hormones, and you'll have some idea of why component models are so cool.
Also, a DE usually contains a set of libraries and applications to make adhering to the first two much easier.
For example, KDE uses the QT widget library to expose a set of UI elements to make it easier for programs to look and behave like KDE apps. Gnome uses GTK. Likewise, KOM/OpenParts (for KDE) and Baboon (for GNOME) are the component APIs that programs have to honor to be well-behaved KDE or GNOME apps.
That's all there is to it, really. A window manager doesn't do these two things; all it does is manage the decorations on the windows. (Well, there's ICCCM, but it is at once hideously overengineered and utterly inadequate for specifying UI behaviors....)
However, note that the big interoperability problem between GNOME and KDE isn't the UI; Unix users have been dealing with wildly different-looking GUI programs for years.
Instead, the problem is that the component specs are different, which means it will be a lot harder to write programs that mix components from the two environments. For example, it will be unneccesarily messy to (say) write a script that uses KIllustrator to draw a chart from data in a Gnumeric spreadsheet unless the KDE and GNOME teams figure out a clean way of bridging their two component models.
Fortunately, both of these are free software, so if they don't want, someone else will be able to. (It would have *legendary* hack value, if that someone is reading and needs encouragement. :)
That's just not true.
Posted by kmad:
You are exactly right Mr. LizardKing. It would certainly make since to work towards making your desktop of choice as good as you can, rather than wasting energy on pointing out the shortcomings of a desktop you don't like. Nothing like a good bit of competition to bring out the best. Of course there is usually only one winner, but you can always start another race!
>"I don't think KDE has a future at this point,
/., the GNOME/KDE flamewars finally cool off and then Miguel has to go and say stupid something like this! :(
>it's not completely free yet and it's bound to a
>single programming language in Unix. Gnome from
>the very beginning has been accessible through >any language. We are providing the GUI for
>all the languages and programmers can choose
>the language they like the most," says Miguel.
At least on
KDE and GNOME are both very nice( I use pieces
from both ) and there is no need for either team
to make inflammatory statements like this. Let
the kiddies fight this psuedo-debate out in the
middle school lunch room. GNOME rocks! KDE rocks!
But having a choice rocks even more!
Thanks, that should fix some of my Gnome issues. I've been running KDE+Windomaker because of some Gnome wonkiness.
I browse with my threshold at 2 so I can't read my own comments :-)
I wrote them (in a week, if I may brag a bit).
They are for Qt 1.33, but they should work on Qt 1.44, only be incomplete.
It's not the best binding possible (not even close), but I did it to win an argument.
http://ultra7.unl.edu.ar look for qtc
There is a very small subset of the KDE functionality that requires a KDE aware window manager.
There are several KDE aware window managers, including window maker.
The situation is not very different from GNOME's. (Hell, I can't find *any* difference)
Most KDE apps require only that you have kdelibs installed.
Some will also require that you are running kfm at the moment of using them, because that enables them to be network transparent, and things like that.
Some (very very few) will require that you are running a KDE aware window manager (for example, kpager dos this), but that still doesn't force you to use kwm, either.
... why do you believe that sensessly bashing another free software project is "ok"?
If that's his opinion, my opinion is that he is about as immature as they come, which is his right, and that immature people of his age are sadly too common.
Then again, that's something I have suspected for quite a while.
And everyone, please remember this the next time someone says "KDE people" go around bashing GNOME.
KDE and Gnome are not window managers (though KDE does come with one).
Both of these are, at heart, suites of applications and libraries. The applications are there to make the user experience easier; examples are the file managers and the panels of each. The libraries are there for two purposes: to provide a consistent look and feel, and to help applications written for a given desktop environment to interact with one another, thereby providing a more seamless experience.
My choice: Gnome, with KDE's libs also installed.
Why does not running kwm defeat the object? Gnome doesn't have a window manager and KDE without kwm becomes the same thing.
I never understood why people think KDE or GNOME looks better. In their default state they look pretty similar to me. I run both and find
GNOME much more primitive than KDE though it is kinda cute for some reason I haven't quite fathomed yet.
Regards
Or the Sahara Desert
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
One thing about Miguel is that he is not afraid to speak his mind. He'll always say what he believes for example at the Netproject conference in London he was quoted as saying 'TCL was a mistake which shouldn't have happened'. Some people will disagree strongly with this statement but others won't.
Being able to speak you mind is a good thing so he shouldn't be criticised for it. He also makes an interesting speaker as I found out when he went to London.
--
I've been wondering this also. I've noticed there are a whole slew of k apps nowadays, are these apps only runnable in the kde environment? And wouldn't that be a bad thing considering the k programs would require someoe to have kde therefor lowering our ability to have choice?
No, as long as you have kdelibs installed, almost all K apps will work fine. My current setup of choice is kfm running inside WindowMaker and a mix of KDE and GNOME utilities.
Incidentally, I found this article abysmal. The "GNOME operating system" bit is laughable and I thought Miguel came off like the Ed Muth of Linux.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
There's some info here:- announce-list/1999-April/0028.shtml
m e-mailer-list/
http://www.gnome.org/mailing-lists/archives/gnome
Here's the mailing list archive:
http://www.gnome.org/mailing-lists/archives/gno
It is no surprise to me that BBC News manage to get their OSes and Desktop Environments mixed up. Their 'Internet correspondent' Chris Nuttall is not totally clued up. However they're trying which is good, but Mr NUttall reponds well to people telling him what to say (he'll gladly report what he sees on newsgroups blindly on the New web site) so if you want to get more good press at theBBC then talk to him about Linux more, get him to recognise the benfits of it and show him interesting stuff that mainstream news can cover.
In my personal tests, both environments take about the same amount of RAM and are equally responsive. gnome looks much better than kde, imho, but kde seems more usable at this time. Now that I got gnome working, tho, I'll actually have to try using it.
Licensing/language/political crap aside, 2 desktop environments that are making progress, are usable, and aren't going away anytime soon. I see myself (someday) running a combination of the 2, with still a butt-load of rxvt's up.
Right now, I'm using AfterStep 1.0 (with the 1.6 Wharf), because it Works For Me(tm).
--
--
Me spell chucker work grate. Need grandma chicken.
dude, get off of your high horse.
If i was working on soem project, and people saw me as the guy behind the project (for whatever reason). and they asked me a question on my opinion on a particular topic, what do you want me to do? call a fricking conference? shit, i will say what i believe. As long as what i say is correct, to hell with who gets burnt. Go ask linus to check his comments. Miguel did not appoint himself as "spokesman", the media did. If you don't like what he says, then don't listen to it.
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
I suppose he is going to promote Gnome over KDE, but his comments are a little inflammatory. I use Gnome nad Linux at home, and KDE and FreeBSD at work, and have to admit that KDE is far more stable at the moment than Gnome. I prefer GTK+ to Qt, but that's simply because I prefer C to C++. So before the flame war starts, lets remember that KDE and Gnome promote healthy competition on the Linux desktop - something the Windows world sadly lacks.
Chris Wareham
Some of us arent't running stale RPMS.
/usr/local, including the compiler and binutils.)
[To Malda]
Don't feel bad dewd. It's not just you. Gnome-session is quite a bit broken. Calling gnome a one-point-oh release was simply a big mistake. It's still at about zero-point-nine-two IMHO. The best thing I can suggest is to rebuild gnome-libs-1.0.9 to the latest (and the rest of the stuff to latest versions actually) from source, and then add a line before it in your ~/.xinitrc to delete the stale ~/.gnome/.gnome-smproxy-* file that screws things up horribly. By doing that I have at least gotten it to reliably start the panel (but I still have to use mini-commander to start E).
I will say this though, if you never logout of X and just use the screen locker, it seems to be less of a problem that gnome-session never seems to be able to start everything right without 'rm -rf ~/.gnome', and a *very* pleasing to the eye desktop.
(Please folks, don't waste your time and mine making guesses as to "non-standard" installation locations. Everything was built with the default prefix of
Or ATM machine, or the LaBrea Tar Pits. :)
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
"A community is where people sharing a common interest (supposedly) and fighting for the same cause, all band together and fight as one."
... the chances that you can get large segments of the population to agree on much of anything is fairly low. Chances are that multiple politics, languages, and belief systems will be co-existing. This co-existence is usually peaceful. Sometimes it isn't. TLawful conflict generates what tomorrow looks like. The change fuels development.
That sounds more like a corporation than a community to me.
Corporations have a bottom line to take care of, and everything and everybody revolves around that.
Communities are diverse, often to polar extremes. Take any given country as a community
If they were all the same, what would the point be? Social stasis is a form of mass insanity, IMHO.
"The purpose of argument is to change the nature of truth." -- Bene Gesserit Precept
Hm. Well, I've discovered that the best thing to do with gnome-session is give it a "--purge-delay=2500" argument. That at least gets everything started...
This is from gnome-core 1.0.5, though- I do remember previous gnome-sessions being *hideously* flaky.
And the whole shebang about trying to start a default window manager sensibly... .
-- i will protect you from ideals to save you from defeat
I am very upset by what I've just read. If Miguel genuinely made those derogatory comments about KDE then he needs to be replaced as the mouth piece for the GNOME project until he learns that the position of spokesperson carries responsibility.
His comments about KDE are factually incorrect, immature and go great damage to the work people have put in to build peace between the two camps.
When I get home tonight I will be writing to the BBC with a rebutal of Miguels comments.
Macka
Steven,
Miguel may have come across as a nice guy, but nice guys do not trash compedetors, they do not spread lies, and all around bullshit. Your loyalties are clear, and you'll backup Miguel no matter what. Blind faith is overrated.
As for your choice of Gnome, IMO you're choosing it for the wrong reasons. Gnome is *not* portable, and in fact I've had a bitch of a time getting it to compile on FreeBSD. FWIW, I think that Gnome has used CORBA in the wrong places. CORBA is a heavy "standard", and putting it to use on the panel is like driving an SUV in the city. It's insane.
But then, CORBA should promote compatibility, right? Wrong. Gnome has chosen to create its own standards, the whole project is a reinvent the wheel type of situation. For instance check out Bonbo or watever it's called and take a look at KOM/OpenParts. Which one has been around longer? Oh yeah, KOM/OpenParts. I don't know really how one can be CORBA compliant. Take a look at Konqueror, KWord, KSpread, etc, etc, they all make strong use of CORBA. Aw hell just sit on the kde-devel list for a while, or read the archives to perhaps get a more accurate opinion.
You obviously don't care to get your facts straight or present an objective opinion, please don't disguise it as such.
The revolution will be mocked
Miguel,
:-)
I don't know what part of cooperation is really so hard for you to grasp. I am for the most part at a loss for words to describe how disappointed I am in you. But who knows, perhaps your spewage has actual factual basis. So in the spirit of healthy competition, I'd like to see you and *only* you post a reply, and back up your statements. Put your money where your mouth is, and not your foot this time. Tell me, why does KDE have no future? Is the KDE userbase declining? Is egcs going to drop C++ support? Is someone paying RedHat? Do tell, this is the information age after all. Comming by such information shouldn't be hard.
P.S. I'm not interested in hearing what half of the population infected with Linux thinks. Really I'm not; and just because I'm curious, doesn't mean that I think Miguel is any less of a complete fucking moron. Ohh hey, I spoke my mind! Do I have *your* admiration now too? I'm unifying me, myself and I against Gnome; that's gotta count for something.
The revolution will be mocked
On the whole, not an entirely unclueful article. The bit about Gnome being an OS caused a few twinges, but I can see how they might state it that way to get the point across in 25 words or less.
Now... where did I put that flame-resistant keyboard?
--
--
The Internet is the Suppository of All Knowledge. You get it in the end.
Should that be Gnome-Linux or just Gnome with a 'Linux included' sticker, or maybe Gnome-Linux-X-Lots-of-other-really-neat-stuff ...
I've been wondering this also. I've noticed there are a whole slew of k apps nowadays, are these apps only runnable in the kde environment? And wouldn't that be a bad thing considering the k programs would require someoe to have kde therefor lowering our ability to have choice?
I know that Gnome is not an OS. I know KDE is not an OS, I know the X Window System is not an OS, but am a little confused about what GNOME and KDE are.
They are desktop environments. OK, does that mean they are Windows Managers (like FVWM)? Or are they something else?
I haven't yet gotten into the GUI side yet, I'm still delighting at being back at the command-prompt after suffering Bindows 95 for so long (and yes,I know the prompt is accessible under 95)
~ Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity ~
(Man, I think the Gnome web pages are the best looking ones on the net.) Im looking forward to this. I see what KDE is doing and can't help but think Windows on Linux. Web Browser in the Filemanager and an integrated Office suit. Im just looking forward to a viable free office suit for gnome desktop.
--
--
I've read quite a few of miguels articles.. i really thought this BS talking was over. They're friends now right? Working together for KDE / GNOME integration? hah. Every time miguel gets to talk to the public he has his own 'opinion' about KDE.. the article/press release is about GNOME.. why dont he just talk about GNOME? Why does he have to butt in his negative $0.02 about KDE? .. i've been out of highschool for 10 years now.. but i can think back and remember jocks, and preppies talking down cause of what clothes i wore, or how i talked, or who i hung out with.. was this also to be praised? 'THE JOCKS RULE, THEY HAVE AN OPINION IM A LOSER AND CAN SAY IT' yes that is so right huh? Wow look.. its 10 years later im making 100k a year and they're working at gas stations (yes ive seen them there pumping gas).. so how does this work with the topic? Keep bashing KDE everytime your asked to do a press release/article.. keep on slamming, one day you're going to turn around.. and wonder how come you failed. You'll think.. but i was popular! people cheered me on! then it'll hit you.. damn it was just an image.. an outward appearance. Keep on talking smack about KDE, but you should be wary of it.. at the least when 'users' try to switch and get frustrated with GNOME they'll go to KDE where they feel at home, so in that you only cut your own gnomey throat.. but think of worst case.. you belittle and FUD KDE so that no new person tries it first and they try gnome.. uh oh, it dont work like what they're used to.. they get upset, dump linux all together and go back to win9x with an awful taste in their mouth.. now you've not only cut your own throat, but you've cut linux's too.. All because miguel is such a great guy that can speak his mind right.. er OPINIONS not facts or anything else but biased opinions. *shrug* you can only kick a dog so much until it turns on you.
I've read all these posts concerning the article, applauding miguel on his ability to speak his mind.. that is such a great thing eh? To have an opinion such as his and be able to speak it. Forget about who it hurts and what damage it does to both KDE and GNOME projects. This is what you all call 'a good thing' right? heh. if we go off of that and believe it, then really i think you're cutting your own throats (the gnome folks)
Please excuse my malformed sentenses, mispelling and any other grammar errors. thank you =)
That's their 'freedom'. They are 'free' to do whatever the heck they feel like that includes, bashing, spreading fud, maiming, beating, cursing, drinking beer, drugs, bed wetting.. whatever someone tells them is cool.
/ran/ linux.. does that mean you dont run it anymore? thats a real shame! what made you stop? Im not gonna bad mouth you for leaving linux that is your 'choice' and 'freedom', anyone telling you differnt are once again contradicting the same thing they continue to preach.
You said you're ashamed you ever
You have a point, they dont even know the name of their 'OS'. Heck they cant see beyond their little imaginative worlds that they've created to even know what it is they're fighting for. Me? i dont run linux, i think its a gay little toy. - hey look ma, i spoke my opinion. Anyways, you are so right!!!!!!!!!!
wow. this gets more amazing everyday. Here you have what the linux users call themselves a 'community'. well, hate to break the news people, but if this is a community, then it's a pretty distorted one. A community is where people sharing a common interest (supposedly) and fighting for the same cause, all band together and fight as one. But this is not the case in the so called 'linux community' you all so cherish. you have all the little groupies split into different sections bad-mouthing the others, and yet you hope to succeed. sorry, but if you to acheive a goal, you have to all band together and help one another and be one loud voice.
yah, you have the freedom to choose between GNOME or KDE, or windowmaker, or fvwm, or whatever you wish to use. But how does 'linux' wish to acheive 'world domination' when they can't even get along within their own little group. Hell, you can't even decide between a name to call the 'OS' you are fighting for!
I'm almost ashamed to say I ever ran linux, or is it GNU/Linux?
anyone know what they were talking about?
url?
Alex,
Sorry you feel so strongly against Miguel. I met him at the Linux World Expo back in March. He was smart, active, and an all around "nice guy". I've had some correspondence with him via email and he actually returned my messages that same day! He does a lot for the open source community so please, don't insult him.
As for KDE-GNOME, I have picked GNOME for one reason. CORBA. GNOME is based on CORBA standards, so that it will be portable to other platforms and can interface with other applications that are CORBA compliant. This is a disadvantage to KDE, since it is not CORBA compliant, and I don't see any change for the future. Although if this does change, I will review it too.
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
In any community (and yes, there is a Linux community and it's a healthy one) where you have multiple choises in any matter there is bound to become different "groups" that favor one or the other.
In addition to this, due to the uman nature of competition, there will be namecalling between the groups.
Since this is still a fairly young isssue there will perobably take years before all the namcalling stops, and even then there will probably be some animosity between the GNOME and KDE developers.
It's a sad thing to see, but it happens all the time and everywhere.
Currently, my setup looks absolutely nothing like Windows whatsoever, and it is also not running on Linux. Also, the work on KDE 2.0 is seriously awesome, and I believe it looks much better than GNOME, and is already much more portable than GNOME is.
Every issue, time magazine runs an interesting little tech snippet at the very end. In the latest issue, there is an article about linux that seems pretty OK. The author talks about waiting for gnome to be released before deciding to try linux (KDE duh!). There is also an email address at the end. Could someone post it so that we can help the guy out with his linux install/search for linux apps? It is a multi part article and who knows.. he might say something about slashdot in time!
I would like to add what Mr. Torvalds once said. This might let some people cool down.
> Author: Linus Torvalds
> Email: torvalds@transmeta.com
> Date: 1998/11/22
> Forums: comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.x
>
> Peter A. Koren wrote:
>>
>> If I read the GNOME folks correctly, KDE essentially locks
>> you in to C++, while GNOME is architected to easily allow
>> other languages to be used for development under GNOME/GTK.
>> Is this really true? If so, the case favoring GNOME over KDE
>> would be compelling.
>
> I don't see why language is an issue at all.
>
> The kernel is coded in C, and I don't export any scheme or perl bindings
> for it. You have to code in C (or in assembly if you really really feel
> like it and want to punish yourself for some bad deed you have done) in
> order to write kernel code.
>
> Having one primary language has advantages: less confusion, and less
> overhead to maintain language-level abstractions.
>
> Haviung one primary langauge has it's disadvantages too: you have to use
> that language.
>
> I'm not saying that C++ is the only language to use, I'm just saying
> that you have to balance the advantages against the disadvantages. It
> all depends on what you want to do - saying that the language issue is
> "compelling" just doesn't make sense at all. It could be compelling in
> either way, and as such the compulsion isn't very real, is it?
[demands lean programing in both projects]
> Being too generic (in languages or features or design) often has its own
> set of serious downsides. Never _ever_ forget that.
>
> Linus