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University offers degree in game programming.
atomly writes
"It seems a British university is offering a
degree in game programming with courses like the history of
games, and game appreciation. " A class where you
compare Sonic and Mario? God yes. Makes me wish I thought
for more than 3/10ths of a second before rejecting the
idea of grad school ;)
A degree in warez? Whoa! I just mailed off all my college forms (for classes, you know) but I guess I should've considered this one first..
btw, first post (I think, but it's not important anyway)
But I can click on links like "Reply" anyway, this isn't the first school to offer a degree in video-game programming. There is actually a school in Vancouver BC, and I think a campus in Seattle, WA called Digipen (www.digipen.com) where it is an extremely rigorous course dealing with nearly everything there is to do with game programming for 2D and 3D environments. Last I heard, it was extremely difficult to get into this school, and it required almost all of your time. I think you if you go here, you aren't allowed to have a job, and are required to devote a few hours of "out-of-class" time to work on projects. It's been awhile but I think they they develop everything for Super nintendo.. I think it's even funded by Nintendo..
The only way to create GOOD games, IMNSHO, is
to play em and make games YOU want to play.
What will a degree teach you? how to think?
i dont think so. can you be a better
games developer after having a degree? no
the best programmers i know, are SELF TAUGHT
the best game designers i know have an inherent
INTEREST in designing cool games and are CREATIVE.
University degrees / programs / courses wont
teach you HOW to be creative.
EOF
Digipen in Vancouver was (I believe, I could be wrong) the first school for game programming. I wanted to attend after high school, but the little book they sent me said the courses were rather math-intensive, and I decided it really wasn't my cup of tea at this point.
--Eil.
...when you can go to Massachusetts? At Hampshire College, we "roll our own majors", so someone could probably do "Game Design and Programming", filling it with CS, writing, art, and psych classes, as well as his own research and projects (which Hampshire almost requires you to do). It could be a pretty slick--and legit--course of study. Combine that with no grades or tests, a great collaborative CS atmosphere (kind of like the OSS of the college world), and classes where you do real projects (usually of your own conception) instead of throw-away assignments, and I'd say we've got a pretty sweet deal going on right here in the States. :-)
Damn, I love this school....
--Mike
Umn, no. Noble words don't have kewl-d00d misspellings. This has always been an idiot word.
at unt they have a degree in this also (university of north texas) or so i heard.... **turns slowing to friend who goes to unt**
With a career in game design and programming, you're either fresh or it's your death; you produce or you're refuse; you keep your employer long in the red or you're dead. Unpopular games can easily result in huge monetary losses due to months/years of dev time/staff/resources for what may be near zero return, so if you're not raking in boatloads of $$$ for your company, you're gone (Whatever happened to Carmack and Daikatana?). This differs from other jobs in software because there is no in-between. You must be fantastically fscking productive or you're gone. And no bank will give a home loan to a game programmer. Too unstable of a career. Great games are often written by nobody's on their own time late at night, then they get picked up by a distributor, sell wildly, the programmer gets great job offers, works for a while, can't produce another megahit, is let go, and returns to a normal boring life (But by then he's burned out). After all, people can't just be creative on a genius level on demand. If it happens at all, it's probably a once in a lifetime thing.
Game programming is like dealing dope. If you're good at it, the pay is phenominal, but there's always the risk of losing it all and getting totally ruined.
I'll stick with my 9-5 SW job, my home, my 2 cars, wife and 2.6 kids, thank you. I would also like to know that I will be able to live well when I'm 70.
These are the people who will benefit from a game school. You may be a wizard in some other programming field, but could you even write from scratch an existing game like Quake with all the cool shading, 3D, fast response, HW specific video acceleration, etc? Probably not. Who teaches this stuff? Not any 4-year college I know of. Places like DigiPen are just filling a void.
I agree wholeheartedly. Speaking as a bio major / CS minor (although I like both subject equally) I would think that a general CS degree would be preferrable. Computer game programming, while probably scoffed at by other more "general" programmers (i.e. business, internet, etc) is very encompassing. I mean, in what other field of programming must you learn languages, AI, graphics, systems, networking, algorithms, etc.? Game programming requires almost all the aspects of CS, at least to some degree. I think if you want to be a game programmner, you should either go CS (for technical programming) or creative arts (for art/sound/writing aspects) or both. Me, I plan to write a few little games for fun, but I'm no graphic artist or sound engineer!
Respectfully,
Kevin Christie
kwchri@maila.wm.edu
Not necessarily.
While it would be nice if this school taught programming in environments other than Win9x and consoles as a standard part of the curriculum, it's not antirely necessary.
Learning the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between between programming for consoles and PC's and porting between the two is good for learning cross platform development not just between different OS'es, but across completely different hardware architectures.
If cross platform development and portability, even if only between Windows and consoles, is taught and emphasised, then those degrees are well worth more than the paper they're printed on.
>Noble words don't have kewl-d00d misspellings. This has always been an idiot word.
I don't know. Idiot words have a way of becoming 'real words' when the generation of kids using them grows up. "Cool" was probably an idiot word at one time. And while some words will never quite make into acceptable mainstream usage (Groovy, peachy-keen), and others will be viciously resisted from becoming accepted (Bitchin'). Others will gain acceptance ("neat" as in cool) and seem so ordinary that no one will notice their once slang beginnings. Who knows, 100 years from now, Chevy will be puting ads on TV for their new K-R4D BL4Z3Rz and C0R\/3TT3Z.
Um, it's more fun? ;)
Seriously, I suppose game development isn't much different from any other type of application development. Then a good game usually has the melding of the abilities of artists, programmers, writers (when necessary), and sometimes various other specialists and R&D people (physicists, athletes for motion capture, actors, etc.) under the subtle orchestration of 1 or more adept designers (who often has to do or has done at least 2 of the above) to produce a finished product.
Game development is often broader than other software development simply because much of the software out there are merely tools (tools for writing, tools for organising data, tools for compiling and organising code, etc.), while games have to appeal to the senses and the imagination to evoke that elusive goal of "fun." To do that nowadays, in the world of 1 GHz processors and 50 million lit, shaded, ray traced polygons at 60 frames per second takes a lot of talent, skill, and sometimes just plain dumb ass luck, but if it's done right, it's worth it. Especially if you can find a simple, timeless concept (falling blocks, a person running around a maze picking up powerups and blasting baddies) and turn it into a world-wide addictive phenomenon (Tetris, PacMan->Doom->Quake).
Anyway, I wish this school good luck, and encourage people to check out the original video game school, the DigiPen (http://www.DigiPen.edu).
Learn all the generalities until they fill your head but at some point you need the specifics. I know Mech Engrs who can't put a new clutch on their own car; Chem Es who can't cook their own meals; And CS Es who can't print out a PDF file. Thi point is (and always will be) that general theory only gets you so far. But until you learn the specific details of implementation with the often proprietary and environment specific tools, you cannot become a productive employee in your field. This is one of the great advantages of Community Colleges and Vocational schools have over traditional 4 year schools. *They* will teach AS/400, Oracle, FoxPro, Visual Basic, Chevy engine repair, pastry cooking, etc. A game programming school is not at all unexpected. It's necessary.
Fascinating...
Are you advocating the advent of a sort of modern "Renaissance Person?"
AAAACCKKK!!!
Pointers!
Still trying to wrap my head around what you can and cannot do with pointers!!!
btw, I'm only a freshman taking summer classes so I suppose I've got time, eh?
Carmack is still kicking ass at id. Romero is...well...at ION
That's senior design at best.
Minus world for the Masters thesis.
`leet Phds know the "small fiery mario" trick.
Here are the degrees that the programmers on our game have:
2 computer science
2 cognitive science
1 technical school
1 physics
1 mathematics
1 history
As an aside, I think that specializing in "Game Programming" is inadvisable. A better idea is to get a broad-based background in programming, and if you're really interested in game programming, then do it in your spare time. If you can't get yourself to do that, then you probably aren't into it enough to survive the rigors of the game industry, and your broad background will let you get a job in many other areas that are more conducive to a 9-5 workday.
Huh?? You call Algebra and Planar Geometry intensive? Frankly I'm shocked that they can get away with such a scant overview of elementary Calculus. Where's the Differential Equations?
If you really think that CORBA, ActiveX and other corporate hype is what CS is all about then I have no respect for you. The CS curriculum has drifted away slowly from the traditions and now allmost all CS graduates only know OO, Win32 and programming; this is caused by corporate influence. We even have courses on Java and distributed systems implementation. Last time I took algorithm analysis, 5 people attended and passed and the annual intake is around 100 people. Most people just study GUI design, OO and other less theoretical subjects and actually end up with poor programming skills. The corporate technologies can never be exploited fully without good knowledge of the CS fundamentals and the average M.Sc. curriculum is not nearly enough to teach the fundamentals properly; littering it with courses that teach technologies that will be obsolete in a few years will make things worse.
What saddens me is that people, that have never read Knuth or Dijkstra graduate. Most of the corporate hype technologies are just old ideas re-"Invented" (of course the corps invented it), because at the time the computers weren't up to them. What I'm trying to say is that people with a strong theoretical background in generic CS will quickly learn the new technologies, and no one is keeping you from studying them on your spare time. Anyone with a clue should know what the employers want and can learn it himself (I did). Those technologies are not worthy of university level teaching; the credits can be used more efficiently and that knowledge will always be useful... the corporate technologies will fade away in time.
-Anonymous CS Researcher
> What will a degree teach you? how to think?
> i dont think so. can you be a better
> games developer after having a degree? no
> the best programmers i know, are SELF TAUGHT
This might be true, but you know every programmer is the greatest in the world (or at least he thinks he is). Seriously there's not a single programmer who couldn't benefit from teaching. I'm mostly self-taught (the lecturers were boring, so I read the harder stuff, while they were doing the basics)... But later in advanced studies there will be stuff that is hard to learn and which will open people's eyes and broaden their vision. It's highly likely that a totally self-taught programmer has a narrow vision of the field.
> the best game designers i know have an inherent
> INTEREST in designing cool games and are
> CREATIVE.
> University degrees / programs / courses wont
> teach you HOW to be creative.
No, but they give you ideas and stir your imagination and, better yet, give you the means to realize your creativity in programs. Frankly I'm tired of this univ. bashing... I for one can honestly say that in the 3 years it has taken me to almost complete my M. Sc degree (thesis in progress) I have learned a lot more than I would have learned on my own. University forces people to expand their horizons and learn new stuff, not just stick to the old, which is what a lot of self-taught programmers do. Ie. "I only program in C because it's the best language, even though it's the only language I know". You know the type.
UPenn CIS dept. offers a Masters in Telecommunications
It's not a course, it's 2 or 4 years of courses in a carefully structured curriculum. I actually looked at their web page. What they describe in it is as hard as going to a regular engineering school and getting a standard engineering degree. This curriculum is just pointed at game development in particular.
And they bust your ass. 8 semesters with 17-20 credit courseload. They specify a credit as (1 hr lecture + 2 hr homework or lab time)per week, for 15 weeks . For lab courses a credit is 3 hr lab time per week.
Sixty hours a week for the first six semesters, and fifty-one hours a week senior year.
Heavy on the math and computer science.
I agree with you that this sort of program will have hordes of problems, but I think that 2 effects will be seen, one of which you've already detailed: churning out undergraduates who know how to do what's already been done. But I think that a well-sized graduate research group in this program could produce some very innovative ideas for computer gaming.
What they will _not_ do, however, is produce any actual games. They can work several years in the future, instead of, eg, next fall. (Yes, most long-term research is a failure, but to science, it's only a failure if someone duplicates your previously-shown-incorrect-work.) They can bring in insights from several disciplines, all on the edge of their research, right there on campus. But:
1) they won't have the benzedrine-level intensity of the commercial game market, and thus won't spend the 36 hour days implementing and balancing (I find the balancing to be the bitchiest.).
2) Academics usually fail to grasp the separation between research results and commercial viability. I hardly need to belabor this point.
So, yes, a bunch of dumb kids will find out that the world is bigger than their degree, but we may gain a great deal of knowledge from the research groups there.
This situation (which is parallelled in all disciplines) leads one to ask why we don't simply separate the two. Free the researchers from the students!! I assure you, though, that teaching students is one of the best forms of therapy in a job where you spend 90% of your time confused. (When you're not confused, you've solved the problem. Time for a new problem.) Some days I see the undergrads as big Prozacs on legs.
I had a point when I started this...
are you a TAMSter?
Others wrote to say that a broad, liberal education is preferable, and I agree completely. I talked to these folks (Full Sail) at Siggraph last year and they flooded me with phone calls over the following months, trying to get me to sign up for some courses. It's sad to see that many academic institutions are pandering to some very short-sighted educational goals, enticing bright eyed hopefuls to part with their money. Instead, they should focus on turning out brilliant, adaptable alumni with a broad knowledge base and unbridled creativity. A school is ultimately judged by the quality of it's graduates.
This is obviously a marketing ploy by universities to attract "game programmer" wannabes.
Does anyone have the syllabus? I can pretty much guess it:
- Linear Algebra
- Computer Graphics
- Perhaps a section on optomization techniques, but this reduces down to more algebra and numerical methods.
- Software Engineering techniques (fairly well established for the game industry...not much room for innovation here since all game apps are graphic-engine centric...er...at least most are).
- data structures
- AI
Note how all are pretty much standard courses in every university.
Of course, in such a degree course there *is* one thing that will be of great assistance to an aspiring "game programmer": the course projects (if there are any). 99% of the learning will most likely be throguh the project...everything else is standard knowledge - every CS grad should have the necessary prerequsite knowledge to make a game.
A degree project will provide a nice single comming-together point to apply all knowledge from the diverse fields I listed above for the sole purpose of writing a game. How to use this knowledge to effectivley write games is not necessarily intuitive. Hopefully the degree is under the supervision of experienced game programmers.
I hope this isn't a standard CS degree with a couple of mandatory "game programming" courses.
There was all this hype about "Software Engineering" degrees a while back (almost every university offers them), however much to the chagrin of new students, these degrees are nothing more than the standard CS degree plus a few courses on software engineering (typically a course on requirements, another course on design, and finally a course on testing).
Aside from the history of gaming (you can find that on many websites), I wonder if they'll cover how impossible it is to be employed as a game programmer...now if the course was also a co-op one...then you have something VERY good!
But I digress, is this the stuff we want in universities? It's very...well...unworthy.
Sure, it'll make you marketable, but that's what technical colleges are for. Well...I suppose even universities have to stay competitive...
Carnegie Mellon University's School of Computer Science is arguably the best computer science school in the country. No, I don't go there - I'm in their Engineering school attempting a double major :)
SCS does have classes that concentrate on game programming. However, if you really want to concentrate on game programming, you have to work your butt off to do it - User Interface, Art, Design, and history.
Though, SCS doesn't make it a "degree." The degree is *still* Computer Science. And even if you spend two semesters on game programming, you will come out no less a Computer Scientist from this school than if you specialized in Operating Systems or Graphics Software.
IMO, this announcement is just a way to get some publicity. Any respectable Computer Science school in the country most likely has at least two courses on games and game programming: one for the programming, another as a seminar course to discuss the history, user interface, etc.
There's no shame in majoring in Computer Science with a concentration in Game Programming, as long as you get the general education to back it up.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
Posted by cnr1089:
Hey, this is all a little crazy to me. I am going for a dual Major in Computer Science and Computer System's engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. When I first go there, I was like, yah, I am going to learn so much. Well, I will tell you, you learn a lot as a undergrad, but there just isn't enough time. You have to learn to walk, before you can learn to run.
I was pissed when we got into some CS classes, and we were programming little CONSOLE programs. I was like, "why don't we learn Xwindows, or Win32 stuff". Well, I have learned that it is best to nail down the concepts first. If they are offering a degree in Game Programming, these people (unless it is a grad degree, I did't see that specification) aren't going to have a solid foundation in the underlying. I have talked to MANY people who don't truely even understand the concepts of Pointers, because they just usually call a bunch of APIs (win32, etc) and never really learn the concepts.
Posted by 2B||!2B:
It's not a degree specifically in game programming that needs to happen. What needs to happen is we need more hands-on experience in a variety of real-life applications while we're in college. Problem: right now too much of the degree is spent on "lib ed" and math and physics, etc., because of the insufficient education we receive before college in the US (unlike Japan, Russia, and many other places where a high school grad probably knows more about math and science than an American knows after finishing a BS degree). There's no time left for what really counts: real projects. I'm finishing the last class of my computer science degree, and wish that I had been given classes teaching COM, CORBA, 3d gaming, and many other similar commercial skills as part of the degree. Everybody finishes with many general skills, but lacking in any specifics unless they have a job on the side. If the first place they end up at is a Win32 shop, they'll eventually learn that, but will still be unfamiliar with many other important skills. If they end up in gaming, they'll be clueless on things like CORBA, so they'll also be stuck. We really need a broader experience in what's out there before we graduate. Even grad school doesn't really provide that.
Posted by stodge:
:P I just hope the people on my degree there are having a successful life. Cheers folks!
Oh and of course its a wonderful university, in a wonderful town. NOT! Well not the town anyway. How do I know? I did my degree there.
I just browsed the student projects. It looks like they have to produce storyboards, screen mockups, state machines, flow charts, game stories, etc.
How is that different than any programmer producing screen mockups and UML diagrams? Or, writers producing plot outlines and draft chapters.
Or, is the intent to provide extremely focussed training (like community college) that also yields a portfolio when finished (like a fine arts student)?
--
Marc A. Lepage
Software Developer
I would argue that all programs should have those qualities.
See Jon Bentley's "Programming Pearls" for details.
Sure, you can have an application that is a mere "tool" but if everything comes together, you have an elegant "pearl", whether it is a game or an FTP client or backup software or whatever.
--
Marc A. Lepage
Software Developer
When I first read the heading I though "COOL". Then I thought more about it.
Why bother? It will probably appeal to the people on the comp.games groups and the *.3d.* groups who buy a book on programming/modelling and expect to instantly know how to do it all. It isn't that simple. It takes skill and talent (and luck).
I think it'd be a much better course if it had no computer component to it, other than a final project or something like that. If you are in the course, you had best already know how to make a rendering engine for a game and through textures up there. The courses should concentrate on playability issues, supporting a game, how to reach a target audience, design issues, etc...
The final project should be no more than a running game (perhaps something to prove academic honesty as well). The grade should be based on the merits of the game, not how good the code was behind it.
Also, anyone who turns in a first-person 3D shooter with nothing else to it (quake, heretic, doom, etc...) gets an instant F.
I heard Ralph Nader say that in a talk about engineering ethics. He also warned of the dangers of specialization in limiting your choices and leading to unquestioning acceptance of the status quo.
Neither I nor Nader really disagree with you. It is far better to have a general background including non-technical knowledge for scientists and engineers and technical knowledge for artists and humanists.
But, before you dismiss specialization altogether, condider this... can you design a CPU? The OS to run on it? The fabrication process and machinery? Mine and refine the minerals needed? Produce the chemicals? Create the marketing strategy?... Now for the monitor...
--
"L'IT c'est moi!"
One of the programmers on Civilization: Call to Power (Windows version, not Linux) had a degree from DigiPen. He was on the project essentially from beginning to end and was one of our better programmers. I don't know how much of that was due to DigiPen and how much was due to natural talent or other experience (he had worked on console titles before coming to CTP), but it certainly worked out fine for him. I don't know what percentage of DigiPen graduates are actually working in the industry, but if this person was a typical example, then it should be pretty high.
As I recall DigiPen is in canada. It looked to be a really cool school and I damn near ended up there after I finished my EE, but alas it was in canada ... :-)
/dev
"There's no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and keep turning left." -- Bill Vukovich
How did you get moderated up?
By your thinking why go to college at all, there are a lot mor jobs at McDonalds?
The number of availabel jobs is not the only reason to chose a vocation. When I was 12 and first starting playing with computers, I didn't think boy there will be a lot of jobs in this when I grow up.
I can think of at least three reasons why people would want this degree:
1. Games are fun, and Game programming would be fun.
2. Chance of recognition, like John Romero, kinda the some reason people code open source (according to The Cathedral and Bazaar)
3. Chance to make a lot more money then regular programmers.
I have no knowledge how true these are, but people getting this degree would be more concerned with these then the number of (possible boring) programming job are availble
Note that I'm just a regular programmer, so these are all just my interpretation of the situation.
This Signature does Not Exist !! FNORD
I think the field is complicated enough to warrant one ... has anyone ever heard of such a thing? It would be great to get rid of all those company specific crap certifications out there (which only feed monopolies).
support gun control: take guns from cops
Yet again, Scotland does it first :)
--
Compare this with a PC system, were to play the latest and greatest games you have to have so many megabytes of memory, that brand spankin' new 3D video card, a CPU that runs at a minimum of so many MHz, etc. To keep a PC current is very expensive, while I haven't "upgraded" my Playstation since I bought it!
Sure, kids can be dumb...
Sure, general programming would be better...
But aren't you gonna basically have to learn all that general programming anyways. Maybe this is a way to get immature kids to decide to go to college instead of chasing the short-run fortune of web designer. If they decide they don't wanna be a "game" programmer when they grow up, at least they will still have programming skills.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Wall Street Journal wrote on Digipen last year.
Said it was highly selective on math and science
requiremnets, only admitting 1 in 6 applicants.
(MIT admits 1 in 8.)
U. Penn and U. Colorado @ Boulder both have Masters programs in T-Com.
I remember an old Far Side comic where these two parents were watching their son play Nintendo and they were daydreaming that he'd get a job one day "Saving the Princess" and "Defeating Boswer" for $50K to $90K a year. It was just a throwaway joke, but now that doesn't seem so far fetched now.
better money too...
http://www.crispypix.com
CrispyPix enhances images right in your browser!
I'm sure the program will start out cool... and maybe this specific program won't suffer from this problem, but I'd hate to get a degree in gaming. Gaming isn't EVER going to be a field that acadamia will be strong in. Gaming has enough problems with the "me-too" games... can you image what it would be like if 3-D shooters were the Only Fun Game according to some panel of PhD's?
This isn't a panic post, because this won't happen. Either the program will avoid it (likely in the short term, unlikely in the long term), or it will die. If the program turns out people with only a certain set of skills, or attitudes, or gaming styles, well, certain houses might employ them, but the cutting edge places NEVER will. This is not a field where the academics will innovate, so all this place can possibly do is produce people who really, really know how to do what's already been done.
Oh Pleeeassee!
I've gotta defend Teesside and M'bro having lived here for most of my life I know a reasonable amount about it and I think it's great. *Everyting* you need/want is here and the prices are reasonable as opposed to down South where you need a mortgage for a beer!
I've just (last week) finished my CS degree at Teesside and I correctly guessed that the course was to take place there before I read the BBC article. :(.
The Uni has a very strong grounding in general computing but especially in software engineering and graphical applications. They ran one of the first 'visualisation' courses in the country and have their own VR labs - damn those admins never did let me run Quake in there
As always, there will be teething trouble for the first group of students to go through but they will get things sorted.
As for a Uni environment being too academic, all of Teesside's full-time computing degrees have a mandatory year's work-placement as part of the course. They also have excellent links with the computing industry throughout the company - they have already had people working on major games (on placement from the visualisation courses).
So give them a break and see what happens!
This reminds me of the day I realized something - most of the so called programmers I run into got their jobs because "they had a computer at home".
Don't we have enough of the fly-by-night-flunky-schools and dried-up-washed-up-overweight-actress-schools turning out students looking for that "high paid profession of computer programming" without trying to bring yet more idiots who use variable names like a, b, c, d$, f into the industry?
I think I am going to go throw up now.
I think the University of Quebec is working on a specific degree program called Game Programming in French. Apparently they were taken back at the fact that the old Sierra Quest games had an English script.
You would think, getting the 100 lives in Super Mario Brothers in Level 3 after 50 million attempts would surely be equivalent to the dissertation a Game Programming DOCTOR would face. Are we sure that this isn't just a major offered at Ziff-Davis University (www.zdu.com). Heh....
My best friend just graduated from DigiPen in Vancouver a few months ago. His was the last class from the Vancouver campus, and now the school has moved to Seattle. They're taking more students (it was only 60, now it's way more) and it's a 4 year school instead of the 2 year school it used to be. It is very hard to get into, and the classes take up just about all of your time. Classes are 6 days a week (I believe) and it's pretty typical to be doing work for 12 hours every day of the week (that is if you want to do well at all). From what my friend says, the school taught him a lot, but some of the teachers were downright pathetic, and the head of the whole thing is a real dick, only in it for the money, not the education. Regardless, he got a pretty swank job at Black Ops in Santa Monica, so I suppose he did learn something. ;)
I know superhackers that got degrees of varying levels, and those that never went to college. Similarly I know jackasses that got degrees of varying levels, and those that never went to college. Their quality as programmers varies over the spectrum. There is no pattern. It's a religious war to argue the merits of educational approaches.
I work with "programmers" who I have to explain things to many times a day, for many days, and weeks later they still tell me "I'm changing random things and hoping it works", in other words, "I still don't fully understand what you told me." Then recently there was a new guy who had spent about 2 days getting up to speed on our app server software, and he asked me a questin. I explained it. He looked confused. I said "Go home and sleep on it." The next morning he met me at my cube, a "Eureka!" gleem in his eye, and said "I get it!" Haven't heard a question from him since.
He got it. The other guy still doesn't get it.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
This looks to be the ultimate catering to the "I only want to learn what I think I need when I'm a kid" mentality, which is about as useful as "I don't like carrots therefore they're not good for me." We tend to forget that many kids are stupid, and can't make decisions for themselves. Many make it most of the way through college before deciding "Hey, I don't want to do this." Matter of fact, lots of them get all the way through and then out into the world before realizing they made the wrong choice. Giving them the candy of "Want a degree in game programming?" is a stupid, stupid idea. I used to hang out on rec.games.programmer, and every time a new language came into vogue, two questions would become frequently asked: "I'm writing a 3D shooter in language xxx, who wants to help!" and "I'm in school and I want to be a programmer. Does anybody know schools where I can get a degree in language xxx?" You can lead a kid to college, but you can't make him learn.
My undergrad thesis was on computers in education, my first two jobs were in writing software for medical devices, and my last 3 have been eCommerce web sites. Why in the world would I have wanted to deliberately limit my choices by only learning about one of those things?
Are our brains getting smaller?
I agree completely that there is too much information to be expert at everything. I don't claim to be. But I think that I could learn to be pretty darned good at just about anything you hand me. That's what education is supposed to be about, as far as I'm concerned -- not specific knowledge, but rather training your brain to learn how to learn. I have more confidence that I'd be able to pick up game programming, then in one of these newly trained game kiddies being able to write some embedded medical software.
d
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
I agree completely with your sentiment on specialization vs. "learning how to learn".
:-)
However, the politicians in my corner of the world (Ontario, Canada) don't necessarily agree. Far from it, the Mike Harris Conservative government in Ontario is promoting specialization. The theory is that greater specialization in university will lead to more direct job prospects. Our gov't is going so far as to increase funding to programs that generate graduates in high-demand job areas, at the expense of those programs that don't necessarily, such as Fine Arts, Music, etc. Not only that, but there are plans in the works to have entire universities specialize in offering certain programs, and stop offering programs that they are not "the leader" in.
If you are familar with universities in this area, a great example might be that the University of Waterloo would then only offer specialized programs in Computer Science and Engineering, and, say, the University of Guelph would only offer programs in Biological Sciences and Agriculture.
Perhaps programs such as this "Game Programming" degree in Britain are just a symptom of this entire (dangerous) mentality that specialization is desired to increase job prospects.
However, anybody who has worked in the real world for a few years, or is in a co-operative education program at their university, like me, will know that most employers value:
- well developed problem solving skills that can be applied to ANY type of situation
- excellent communication skills (both oral and written)
(and most of all)
- adaptability
An unfortunate problem is that most university applicants don't realize this. Many prospective students are asking about employment stats for graduates and what companies hire out of the co-op program -- as if they know exactly what they want to do at graduation, 5 years in the future. Clearly some might, but the point is, a lot of North American politicians are hyping up the applicability of university programs to employment after graduation. That just feeds the "job tunnel vision" in new students.
Students will be thinking about a job after graduation -- but perhaps more should be thinking about their career, and what would happen to it if the job prospects in their high-demand field dried up, and what would happen if their highly-specialized knowledge couldn't get them hired anywhere else.
Highly specialized degrees are dangerous if they are not built upon a solid, broad base of knowledge in their field -- if only more people realized this before they started.
I could go on and provide my opinion of "business colleges" that hype up vendor-specific IT training like the MCSE program, but, I digress.
Well by that logic why bother with Electrical, Mechanical, Aerospace, etc.. Engineering, it is all engineering and there are more engineering jobs in general. I mean I would assume general programming is the basis of this degree if it is not then it is worthless.
FYI: I beleive that NC State Univ is adding a graduate program in network engineering. And to the best of my knowledge it is the 1st degree program of it's kind. The MS begins in the fall '99 semester and the BS will start in a year or so.
--
He who laughs last thinks slowest
I just happen to be the webmaster/sys admin for DigiPen. The school originated in canada, but has since moved to Redmond, WA. I'm pretty sure we are the first school to offer a degree in game programming (officially ``Real Time Interactive Simulation''), and we also offer a 3D Computer Animation Degree.
The website is located at http://www.digipen.edu/, for the curious.
Let's hope they cover Linux, Mac, Be, etc. as viable game development and deployment platforms instead of just TV consoles and Win9x. Otherwise they could be churning out degrees not worth the paper they're written on ;-)
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
Did anyone else's Mom say:
You can't make a living playing video games> ?
This URL is now sitting in her email to read.
It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off
Game theory, simple design (required for performance), abstractable design (for simplicity in dependent programs). That's a world of difference from C++ and networking and protocols.
A game is to a CS student interested in making interactive products from Computer Based Training to Disabled Aid and Rehabilitation the same thing OS development is to CS students who want to create systems that understand standard architectures.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Call me old-fashioned, but I am still a big believer in the traditional liberal-arts education. My advice to the aspiring game programmer is to learn good programming fundamentals, learn to write effectively, get a good foundation in mathematics, and get a lot of exposure to history and humanities. In other words, just the things you get in a traditional degree program.
Still, I've seen several posts on Slashdot from people who work in the games industry, and I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say. How about it, guys, do you think the people coming out of this program will make better game designers and programmers? When choosing someone to hire, would you prefer them over graduates of more traditional programs?
-r
kick @$$! Now if only they started something like that in Canada.
:)
hrm... Wonder what the merits of the program are vs. learning on your own. University isn't cheap. And I'm not too sure that'd I'd spend all that money to "play games".
Oh wait, I am in university and that's all I do anyway. At least if I was in that program I'd get better grades.
It'll be interesting to see how this works out.
After submitting this I realized I might not know everything when it comes to computer vocabulary and I might just be using the 'popularized' version of the word 'warez'.
Anyone know of any other meaning for this besides illegal software? Was this word once noble, like 'hacker'?
Why not just take general programming. There are a lot more jobs in that.
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
If you think about it, game programming really does tie in almost every area of computer science, and in fact, other extra-CS major areas as well. A good game programmer would need to know about plot, gfx, sound, algorithms, machine learning AI... the list goes on.
IMHO I feel this major will show us some better game programmers in the future. Of course, as this major is so integrally tied-in with one, specific industry, any lull will be destroying a bachelor's degree for those people. Luctrative, yet risky.
-The Doc
The problem with having a degree in such subjects as web page design, game programming, or multimedia is that these are based on specific platforms that change too rapidly.
Say somebody had taken a degree in "internet site design" in 1993, imagine how useful skills such as Gopher, HTML 1.0, Archie, Veronica, etc. would be today. The goal of a degree is to impart skills that are well founded in abstract thinking and solid principles of an art/science, which do not disappear after 5, 10, or 50 years. Otherwise it's a fad.
There's also another aspect - game writing is a creative process. A degree in creative writing does not make somebody write more creatively. Similarly, a degree in game design won't make somebody who lacks imagination and programming skills into a good game designer.
L.
I was just at DigiPen yesterday giving a talk, so I have a few facts and figures about them.
They're the programming branch of the original DigiPen in Vancouver, BC. They teach the math, programming and game design skills needed for writing games and they grant "Degrees in Real Time Interactive Simulation" - i.e; games. They'll have about two hundred students this fall.
I don't think a degree from DigiPen guarantees that you'll be any good as a game programmer, but it certainly gives you exposure to the necessary skills - many self taught game programmers miss some important skills, like linear algebra, or algorithm analysis, or something else.
Most of their work is done on PCs, although they do have a lab of equipment supplied by Nintendo - they're in the same building. Nintendo hires a lot of the grads, but certainly not all.
.Bruce.
The official name for the lab is the "Laboratory for Recreational Computing", and you can check it out at this link.