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Chinese Government Implicated in DoS on US Site
HP LoveJet writes "US maintainers of sites dedicated to falun gong, a meditation technique whose practitioners are being systematically harassed by Chinese government authorities, say that recent attacks on their servers are traceable to--guess who?--the Chinese government. Scary stuff. "
Who really cares? i mean really what the heck could the chinese really do to the site in the first place, its not like they produce anything or even have any important data. this hack is meaningless except for the fact that the 'chinese government' if it was them, was assaulting American property. And then still who cares like the Falun Gong sect is any better than the chinese government their a proslitising religous cult for gods sake!! And why do you think the chinese government has been cracking down on them they are a potent political force. The chinese communist party tries to put down any major polical opposition, and the Falun Gong sect was protesting, WHY you ask? who knows? if any one does enlighten me.
Well, we killed 4 people, so we'll give 4.5 mil to your government, who assuredly won't give any to you, and will probably even use it against you. Please don't be mad at us anymore. ;)
I think you can figure out how to email me
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uhm...
there were many successful and popular leaders in the United States who were "uneducated".
and, yes, i would hire a high school student to a big company if he/she were qualified.
Is it a crime in China to use government resources to preserve the government. It'd be really shady if they had used computers with different IP addresses rather than their own. Instead, by using their own, they're saying quite loudly that they don't appreciate the attempts at spreading propoganda via the internet.
when one government steals from, attacks (electronically), and denounces another country, isn't that an act of war?
maybe they're testing their bounds.
maybe they've realized that America will do nothing to them as long as we buy their sh*t.
if you think that the Chinese government can't hack, then you're kidding yourself...
I just noticed that www.rangzen.com, a site which promotes Independence for Tibet, is down today.
Not only are they down, it seems that their name servers at netdirect.net are down, and thus netdirect.net site itself, and every domain they serve is out.
I noticed this a few hours ago, and they are not back up yet.
Coincidence?
Sorry if my original post wasn't as clear as it could have been. I was merely pointing out that while I certainly believe in Universal Human Rights (which includes such things as respect for diversity and dissent), the government of China doesn't necessarily agree with me. The reason that they can politically afford to do so is that they can suppress dissent brutally and get away with it due to the relatively monocultural nature of their society (due to powerful historical forces).
Heck, it's absolutely WRONG for a country to oppress its own citizenry in such a manner, but there is little we can do about it without overt or covert conflict. There is a real and deep disagreement, which we would do well to recognize and not paper over with talk of "constructive engagement." But moral indignation alone won't make anything better.
I'm not saying that any group of political elites is necessarily more kind-hearted than the other. We have our fair share of skeletons in our closets. Just that in diverse societies today, all but the most ruthless of politicians have to accept some degree of diversity as a fact of life.
A few things to consider.
1. The article is in the Boston Globe, whose reputation is impeachable. Recall that a few of their star columnists and reporters were passing off fiction as fact.
2. The article relies on falun gong for the "facts" about these atacks originating from the Chineese government.
Consider the possibility that the Falun Gong are playing on anti-Chineese sentiment in the US in their efforts against the Chineese government.
First off, we need to put something in proper perspective. Up until this century, genocide was a regular and accepted part of war. I don't care what part of the world your forefathers hail from, EVERY race embraced genocide. The only way to ensure victory was to kill your enemy...and his children. I'm not saying it's ok, but singling one group out for that type of warfare is unfair. History is a bloody, violent thing. What isn't acceptable is that type of behavior today. We know better now...
Oh, and my wife is Northern Sioux (Osage). My children are half Osage. I can assure you that the beliefs, legends, and society built up by her ancestors was never destroyed. Badly damaged, yes. But never destroyed.
This is a twisted, politically correct view on history. 95% of the slaves imported into North America were brought in while we were still a British colony. The importing of slaves was banned shortly after we threw the Brit's out. Now, it's true that slavery lived on for a long time, but it was tolerated simply to keep the nation from breaking up. My own ancestors, who hailed from Maine, fought with the Mass. regiments in the civil war. My own ancestors put their lives on the line to free those slaves. Condemning all of America for slavery simply shows your ignorance of American history.
Once more, you're displaying a serious lack of historical knowledge. Texas declared it's independence from Mexico, and fought hard for that independence. A short time later, the free and independent Republic of Texas petitioned the United States to accept it into the union. Mexico believed the US was behind the secession of Texas, and took a generally hostile stance to anything American. This led to the Mexican-American war. When we won that war, the Mexicans surrendered much of the now-Southwestern US to American control. They started it...but we won. You want me to be ashamed of that? I don't think so.
Ok, were sorta guilty of this one, but at least put it in the proper perspctive. We wanted to build the canal, but the Columbians wanted too much money for the right of way. So we found a sympathetic bunch of Panamanian seccessionists and...umm...armed them. We didn't take it, we just aided a revolution. And how are we "scheming" to keep it? AFAIK, we're getting ready to hand it over to the Panamanian government.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
That's true, I hadn't thought of that. But then, how clueful are the conservative politicians who are going to rant and rave about the "new red menace" when this hits the Rush Limbaugh show?
To expand a little on the "Free tibet" theory, the notion is that enemies of teh Chinese state spoof a Chinese assault on American property. All the Vladmir Zhirinovsky-esque republican nationalists go ballistic and China is severed from our good graces forever (or at least until WWIII).
-konstant
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
Errrrrrrrr, just who *exactly* in the US Gov't do you thing would go after China for this? Think about it. We just reaffirmed their MFN status, after all. Despite all the hordes of scandals --
* Organized illicit campaign contributions traceable w/ very high probability to PRC military intelligence.
* US-built machine tools redirected to (military-related production) sites that they *specifically denied in advance* would be the recipients.
* Mass import of arms, such as illegal shipments of SKS rifles traced to PRC arms companies with very close ties to Beijing.
* Deliberate violations of US nat'l security through leakage of information regarding rocket launches, through Hughes (and, IIRC, maybe Lockheed).
* Theft of nuclear secrets, through suborning of PRC sympathizers with access to classified data.
* Repeated harrassment, threats and refusal to recognize reality regarding Taiwan/ROC.
And... we're trying to be all buddy-buddy to them, partly out of alleged guilt for nailing their Embassy. Frankly, I'd rather bail out our ex-foes based in Moscow, and ostracize Beijing. But no... This is a nation which has repeatedly voiced the threat that it could hit LA with a nuclear-armed ICBM. It is *not* like this Gov't will stand up to them.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Considering that this is happening at the same time as mass arrests, a warrent for the group's leader, and confiscation of literature, it's not too surprising that the party would want the web sites torn down as well.
The Chinese government considers this group to be the biggest threat to it's rule ever.
Their level of paranoia is so high for 3 reasons: 1. the group has 10 million more members than the communist party. 2. Since it is based on traditional Chinese ideas, it cannot denounce it as western contamination. 3. The last two dynasties in China fell shortly after the formation of similar groups.
It doesn't matter if point 3 is superstition or not. The communist party knows that many people will believe that the group's existance means they will soon fall.
Desperation makes people do stupid things.
Right. The primary interest of the Party is to preserve its own power: this is the basis for the traditional Marxist opposition to religion, for religions generally postulate a separate authority beyond the temporal. Religions that are allowed to persist (and, if memory serves, five or so are officially sanctioned by the PRC), are generally watched in the interests of maintaining power. All that bit about "opiate of the masses" and superstition is largely a red herring.
That means pre-emptively cracking down on all perceived threats. Any organization that can mobilize that number, and is led by an independent who apparently has some degree of charisma, matches that description.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
China's been this way long before 1984.
Alexander the Great conquered the Medeterranian before he was 17.
that was an empire, not a big company.
Okay, I guess I wasn't totally clear on your original point; nevertheless, the fact that disagreement could lead to conflict is not a reason to avert our eyes. I believe, strongly, that if we do not actively condemn such behavior, than we are implicitly condoning it. And if that leads to conflict, then I believe that the freedom of my fellow man is a cause worth fighting for.
Nowadays, though, it seems as though I am in the minority in America, as well as the West in general. We continue to, as you said, paper over these differences in the name of commerce. After all, a market of 1 billion chinese consumers makes it very difficult for the moral concerns to outweigh the economic ones. Hell, we'll sell ourselves down the river in the name of a quick buck, let alone the average chinese citizen.
Maybe I'm getting more cynical as I get older, but it seems clearer and clearer to me that Kruschchev was right when he noted that when it came time to hang the West, a Western businessman would sell him the rope.
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
You know, you might want to check the details of Slashdot's moderation system before you label it "censorship." You might also want to check out what Charles Darwin and Gregor Mendel did for a living.
Phil Fraering "Humans. Go Fig." - Rita
(currently testing something about signatures here)
I think its accepted that the Chinese government conducts numerous activities which suck. The fact of the matter is, what can we do about it ? Start a war ? The US government is not so quick to take up arms in the face of a formidable enemy.
...and in any event our government conducts espionage all over the world, even possibly in the US (eschelon), makes military threats towards everyone, and supports large US corporations such as Nike and Disney whom manufacture overseas often through the use of near slave labor practices which most certainly violate a persons human rights. I also do recall a few times when federal and state government agencies incited bloody masacres on US soil (Waco TX, Ruby Ridge).
they should stick to harrasing their own citizens.
Juln
No, I don't want to censor you. The current moderation setup is not censorship. I'd just want to rate my opinion that your post looks like a troll.
Call it "troll" if you want, just another neat name for censorship. Every organization in history has a name for people that are censored (see "terrorist", "deviant", etc...)
And if the Romans had managed to crush Christianity, we'd probably have never gotten the idea that fusion reactors were possible. The Christians in the so-called "Dark" ages worked a lot harder on replacing manpower with machinepower (windmills and watermills) than the Romans did, because the Romans had gotten addicted to slavery.
Copernic, Galileo, Darwin, etc... science has always been the victim of religion.
After everything we've seen China do, and everything that we *haven't* seen them do, why does this come as a surprise? Wake up, it's happening everywhere everyday...
Dan
The US government too should stick to harassing their own citizens.
I read this yesterday on Wired..
Apparently they're trying to syn-flood the two sites; one attack failed, the other didn't..
Guess which site is running Windows?
I'm not an expert on this, but isn't it possible to syn-flood with a spoofed IP address? Just to play devil's advocate, this wouldn't necessarily mean that it's the Chinese doing this, am I right?
It's just some deluded "Free Tibet" American rich-kid-larva spoofing the IP addresses on his/her packet. I don't think the Chinese are dumb enough to aggravate our national sovereignty just now. Vicious, yes, but not stupid. Stupidity is mostly reserved to the crusading middle-american script kiddies.
-konstant
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
Mmmmm....okay, China is a large, homogeneous culture, unlike the West. I'm with you there. And we should try to understand political differences in terms of cultural differences. So far, so good. Where I must disagree with you however, is where you suggest:
Accepting differences is just a matter of acknowledging a reality one could do little about.
and:
While I personally believe that the future belongs to diversity and multicultural cooperation, I also see that the Chinese don't necessarily agree. As long as they stay in their corner and don't mess with any of us, it doesn't have to get ugly.
The problem I have is that you have essentially denied the universality of human rights. We believe that tolerance of others is okay for us, but because the Chinese have a different culture, they don't really have to tolerate differences--in fact, they are totally within their rights to crush these people, or any other domestic group or individual, on a whim.
As soon as we allow that a different cultural background is an an acceptable reason for a government to harass, imprison, torture, and murder its citizens, well, then we basically set sail off into a sea of moral relativism wherein NOTHING is ever really bad or wrong.
Don't get me wrong--we can and should try to understand and appreciate cultural differences. But, there is a difference between understanding something and accepting that thing. We should not accept this notion that somehow human rights are this peculiar thing that can only be enjoyed by westerners.
I don't accept that the Chinese government's actions are somehow okay because they're, y'know, CHINESE. It is enlightening to see how crappy this argument is (it was gospel for my anthro. profs, BTW) when you use the same logic to try to suggest that lynchings by the Klan are really okay, because, after all, they're an inevitable part of the culture of the Southern/Midwestern United States, and that we should all learn to understand, appreciate, and accept them.
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
Just to play devil's advocate, but I wouldn't put it beyond the chinese authorities to have a go. They could always make the same claim that you did in their defense. Also, what's a Free-Tibet-type attacking a potential destabiliser of China for? In the agent-provocateur role it's stll useless. Oh blah.
--Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
What about spoofed ip's too? If anyone could spoof an ip, it'd be a ministry devoted to the net. Why wouldn't they spoof a different ip? Couldn't some else have spoofed their's?
Actually religion is really a form of governement, just like democracy or dictatorship. It is a kind of dictatorship were the rulers hide themselves behind "God" or whatever divinity is suited for them to rule other mortals. As for Falun Gong it is another dangerous sect which profess that the end of the world is close... it is ruled by one guru. They look much more dangerous to me than the present Chinese governement. Never forget that the first mass genocide were organised by religious zealots, and I fear 1 billion religious zealots who believe the world is coming to an end soon. So as chocking as it might be I support the Chinese governement on this issue (flame protection : on)
Gawd, all these propaganda mouthpieces for the dictatorship, and me without my moderator access.
Personally, I suspect that if you don't understand why freedom of religion is important, you won't really understand how to put together a democracy that doesn't collapse into dictatorship like a three dollar suitcase the way Weimar Germany collapsed into Nazi Germany, or even what a real democracy is...
Why should we believe all these statements about Falun Gong from people who apparently want expanded government authority to deal with religions they don't like?
Phil Fraering "Humans. Go Fig." - Rita
(currently testing something about signatures here)
> You cannot pay for a life.
Tell that to an insurance company.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
So you want to censor me ? And what about freedom of speech ?
Freedom of religion is one thing, but there is a line between religion and political weapons, and Falun Gong is walking on this thin line. Sure you are free to be Christian, but not to burn heretics. They should be free to do their gymnastics, but when they try to gain political power, infiltrate governement agencies and manipulate foreign press, they are a real threats. The Chinese governement is definitely a dictatorship, but Falun Gong will be even worse if they succeed in taking over the country (don't be fooled, they are not just a bunch of peaceful Asian hippies, like every sect they have a "higher" goal decided by the guru).
My take is that if the roman had succeded in crushing the Christian sect at its beginning, we would already have fusion reactors by now, skipping 1000 years of middle age, inquisition and relious zealotry.
Well, I'm an Aussie, so personally, I don't care, but I think it's a) stupid & immature by the Chinese, and b) paranoia by the USA. I mean, oh my God, a DoS ... who cares ?!?
"Bastard Operators From Hell" is an anagram for "Shatterproof Armored Balls". =)
HMMM... I've never heard any Christians "make such a big fuss about Buddhism, Taoism, etc."
Have you been watching Falwell again Mr. Coward?
It's been reported by American journalists that the US is giving the money DIRECTLY to the families of the jounalists (and for the last time Core Dump, they are not spies). ;)
I never said they were. You are halfway correct - they were journalists.
And no matter who the money is given to, you cannot buy a life.
I think you can figure out how to email me
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Well, by trivial, I meant that conceeding them would give China somewhat better relations with first world countries and they're unlikely to suffer greatly because of it.
On Taiwan, I suspect that their reasons for asserting that the island is a part of the PRC (and how Taiwan asserts that China is a part of Taiwan) is mostly a matter of face. IMHO, the Taiwanese are beginning to get a popular democratic government with leaders who don't care, and people who don't care. Thus the recent move to assert Taiwanese sovereignity at the expense of losing their claim to mainland China. Taiwan is doing well enough without China these days anyway. 'Course, Red China's leaders have acted pretty weird in the past, so I don't see why they'd think that policies regarding Taiwan would carry over to Tibet all of the sudden.
Tibet, it seems to me, would have been better handled by using it as a buffer state, much as the Soviet Union did with most of eastern Europe. Defend their borders for them, but maintain that it's an independent country, and let them act independently so long as it doesn't damage the buffer policy. This would not be perfect, obviously, but the Chinese have really mucked up the situation. The money they spend on oppressing the Tibetians (not all of whom are unhappy) could be better spent, from China's POV on a ballistic missile submarine program, making their need for Tibetian launch sites irrelevant and strengthening their military globally.
But boy am I glad that China's navy is as lousy as it is.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
You have absolutely no clue about arian local depolmatic. Why would Pakinstan invade the territory. Where do you think Pakinsten got their atimic bomb? The reason China buddy up Pakinstan is because they know Pakinstan has as much love to India as Iran to Iraq. Giving Pakinstan enough power will balance the southern Aria nicely for China. As for Tibet, the Chinese (Han if you prefer) military are already SIT on Tibet, they practically make military research centers in there. What make you think the army can't crash any rebellion? Tibetian can't rebel even if Guang Dong declare indepedent (I would like that), let alone Taiwan. CY CY
if you really want to know.
i was just being specific.
Juln
There is a bit of a difference. If you live in America and qualify for the draft, and are drafted, you go to war. It's this little thing called responsibility, sometimes known by another name, duty. If you don't like it then leave the country. If you die, then it's paid out of gratitude for your sacrifice. Chinese journalists, however, weren't supposed to be in danger in the first place. It was the ineptness of the intelligence (now there's irony for ya) ppl that got them killed, not volunteering for military service. So, yes, the Chinese are understandably a lot more miffed than the relatives of a GI. It was a good thing to pay them, however you can't expect the Chinese to forgive us so easily. ;)
I think you can figure out how to email me
I think you can figure out how to email me
PGP Key:
Naa not 1984... nooo...
Now come let Big Brother brain wash err help you set asside your fears... yes thats it.. come to the ministry of truth and we'll help you... yes we will...
In a realistic vent I wonder what they are affrade of.. is it pure paranoia? Or dose it threaton someone personally [the way one phlosophy threatons members of an oposing phlosophy]
I don't actually exist.
Don't tell me that you really think that people immigrating to America deliberately wanted to spread epidemics.
They most certainly did. It is well documented that we gave blankets and bedding known to be infected with smallpox to many native tribes with devastating results, in what is the first such biological warfare program of which I'm aware.
Certainly not the first occurence of biological warfare. This is as old as war itself. Some of ours dead from bad diseases? Get them into enemy territory in one way or another. Toss the bodies over their walls with a catapult. Or into the river that flows into their area.
This is older than Columbus.
"McWee registered a complaint about the hacking attempt with the Maryland state police's computer crimes division.
Police spokesman Pete Piringer said that because the attack did not succeed in getting access to McWee's server, there did not seem to be a crime committed."
This is only one man making a comment, but I'm certain this would be of interest to Kevin Mitnick.
The party's over
"Nice site. It'd be a shame if anything happened to it..."
--
Boy this is waaaaaay off the technical discussion path, isn't it? Well in that case if the cult did decide to run Linux one day, would the current versions running 2.2.10 be resistant to DoS?
(PS - mainland Chinese public opinion is of reuniting Taiwan with China. But what about the Chinese on Taiwan? I hope their opinions count too!)
Today's English Lesson: Oxymorons
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
Yeah, like other Christians never did anything wrong in the name of their religion. Right in the US, you can see abortion providers getting murdered every year in the name of God. It doesn't matter which kind of religion it is, most of the time it always end up in blood and tears. As soon as believers think they are protected by their God and that the laws of their religion are above humans laws, the door is open to all kind of horrors (Algeria is a good example).
I've heard of Christan Buddhism. :)
Some xtians get fearful over anything that dosn't come from the Bible.
I say xtians becouse I have a lot of respect for real christans.. but thats a diffrent topic
I don't actually exist.
They could just block the site however whomever it is who accually wants it gone more than likely won't be happy with it being alive and well outsite of China. :)
This seems to be getting to the level of a religous crusade.
Just my prospective
As for a technicly knoladgable reporter... a reporter could a. grab the news agentcys SysAdm, b. Talk with tech savy teenager, c. Contact a Linux user group who was in news recently.
Reporters are pritty good at getting information when they really try.
I guess it could be spoofed but it's no easy effort. Douptful someone could do it and then fail to crack the victoms computer.
I don't actually exist.
Lets face it that the Communist vs. Capitalist fights have never been well known for their truthful aspects - just look at the Cuban missile crisis which was just a publicity stunt, so to speak.
So... is this fact or is it fiction... *ONE* attack seems to originate from a police station... could it be that there's a Chinese police officer who isn't exactly on terms with the US ? Surely not ! Perish the very thought !
I really do doubt that the Chinese Government would act in this way... do they not realise that the US would strike back ? OK, you may not read that the US is now attempting to hack Chinese machines, but what do you know ? Chinese newspapers will probably be full of stories stating how the Capitalists have tried to deny the Peoples Republic of internet rights and the like... but truth in these times is a rare commodity.
> Every body knows about David Koresh. The
> Heavens Gate... When there is a problem, if
> nothing is done, people die!!!
Religions thrive on martyrdom: it's the entire principle upon which Christianity, Islam, and -- to some degree -- Judaism are built upon. Even polytheistic religions have elements -- such as the Prometheus and Huitzilapochtli myths (and the 'nine million martyrs' Wiccan myth) -- that promote martyrdom. The harder you crack down on a religion, the more the *religion itself* is going to be seen as a martyr.
It worked for Christianity.
It held the generally fractuous Jews together through millenia of exile.
It caused David Koresh to commit suicide with all his followers.
In short, cracking down on a religion is the worst possible thing you could do to 'fix' the problem of a deviant religion. Further, remember that 'deviant' religions with many members have a tendency to move towards the norm; for instance, Mormonism -- which supported the formation of the nation of Deseret within the borders of the United States -- quickly moved in line with other 'mainstream' religions.
Second: you cannot argue 'information needs to be free' out of one side of your mouth and 'stupid information needs to be controlled by the Firm Hand of Government' out of the other. Excactly how is the moderation of information (in this case, *religious* information) different between the cases you present in the two paragraphs I've commented upon?
> If you naively look at the situation, and
> simply assume its another oddity of Chinese
> government, then you need to look beyond
> American media. If you've been any where in the
> world outside of the US, you'll know that the
> US main stream media is the LEAST FREE--Even
> compared to China.
Here's where my 'BS Detector' light goes off.
Right.
The politics of propaganda go like this: when your government is doing something you prefer the people not know about, you cut off access to alternate viewpoints, ergo restricting the 'info-flow' to a single stream. The Chinese government does this very effectively: they've stifled the underground press, limited 'net access, and even controlled the flow of information by phone. Most of their 'press releases' consist of fabricated stories, spin doctoring, and out of context information.
Further, the Chinese press is composed of Party officials trained to take the Party Line(tm). They do so in every possible circumstance.
The United States does not have the fairest media. Our treatment of the Kosovo situation was egregiously unfair to both the Kosovar, the Serbs, and what was going on. Our treatment of the Air Force incident in Italy glossed over the entire situation. Our press does its best to portray the American viewpoint as the right one, especially within the arena of American foreign policy.
However: there is no such thing as the 'American Media'. A good portion of the information we chalk up to 'America' is actually coming from Canada and the UK -- and, recently, we've been getting a lot of translated articles from Germany. In a worldwide marketplace of information, the 'propaganda' you accuse the government of *cannot* work.
The only place where it becomes sticky is within the arena of American politics, which is largely irrelevant on a large scale. However -- within this arena -- the tenor of articles is generally determined by the political disposition at the time of writing. If that falls along Republican and Democrat party lines, then that's just the opinion of Joe Average.
Anyway.
I've rambled on.
-- Dr. Benway
Study some economics.
China cannot possibly hate America. Their economy is reliant on the cheap labor that American companies get there. Some reason for why China could not "blow us up."
I sure hope that the US won't go around supporting coups against other countries' governments again. One - the US got screwed in Vietnam, Korea, etc., and two - the US fucks up foreign nations' internal affairs enough already. Soverign countries deserve their rights too. The US should stop thinking that it's the role model/superhero of the world.
Jonathan Wang
but don't you want to keep it that way?
If you do then you might want to start by denying Janet Reno her goal of totalitarian control.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I'm merely struck by the astonishing similarities between the original post and the attacks on Dungeons and Dragons from the mid-80's.
I mean, can't you just picture a Jack Chick tract saying exactly what that said about Falun Gong? And about as coherently too. Though at least the original poster has the excuse of not having English as a first language.
--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
I still think the reason that the chinese embassy got bombed is that the US info source during the Kosovo bombing situation was hacked. We hear several reports of an information war being waged between the US and and Milosovich's economy, but yet we hear nothing of any casualties (systems hacked) during this time. What if the US info attacks were not only unsuccessful, but WE were the ones who took the hit. It gives a real plausible reason for the kind of grand blunder that bombing an embassy is.Apply a bit of disinformation, and a map could point to anything and the difference wouldn't be known till it was too late. Would "we the people" ever know the truth in such a scenario? I highly doubt it. Here are some facts: Chinese representatives have made absolute monkeys out of US nuke security. This we already *know* , regardless of the inane denials. While the US may not be innocent in the field of "dirty tactics", why is it such a stretch of the imagination to believe that China has an interest in the terroristic control of certain web sites? They made monkies out of the whole US flipping nuclear security system , and while officially denying it, does that make it any less true? Not IMHO. To be fair, I am not anti-Chinese or anything, but as an American, I think we need to cover our collective ass in a much more secure way than we have been, not sure exactly how though. Especially since the embassy bombing...I mean why wouldn't individuals in the chinese gov't want to show off some tech prowess by striking web sites around the world?
The Chinese government estimates that at it's peak, 70 million people practiced Falun Gong, I was using their figures since that's what they will base their reactions on. The Communist party states that they have 60 million members.
No, don't make China the Evil Ones of the Month! I don't like USA bombing the small and weak (or anyone att all for that matter) but rather that than something huge (*the largest*, in fact) and nukeequipped like China.
So at least please make the next country something small. Ok, maybe the Evil Arabs is too used now (so *stop* bombing Iraq, btw) but now when it seems to be time for the Even More Evil Communists again, take Cuba! (Economic too, the TV teams won't have to travel very far) Or use the Terrorist thing again and take some African country.
Don't risk starting WW3 before EU gets militarized and armed up, they don't want to miss all the fun!
notice how pretty much the whole world except China either speaks english or falls all over itself trying to learn?)
!?!! You've probably never been to Quebec.
Anywho this is drifting off-topic...
Actually, they announced during one of Bill G.'s trips there that Windows is the official OS of China.
Wierd, isn't it?
Phil Fraering "Humans. Go Fig." - Rita
(currently testing something about signatures here)
Also, in case you also somehow "forgot" to learn up on Cisco before posting totally off-topic about it, you would know that Quality of Service tools in Cisco routers are by no means new, nor by no means a problem when used correctly by scrupulous service providers.
And playing with DNS like that is neither fun nor easy, and not a solution to the problem. The fact still remains that the Chinese Government (or whoever it really is) is attacking a machine with neither provocation or reason... so it really means nothing at all to just change which machine is getting attacked.
---
Tim Wilde
Sysadmin, Dynamic DNS Network Services
That _is_ a terrible Haiku, and not to form anyway.
Here is an example for you:
Open your present
No, you open your present
Kazinski Christmas
Also, in case you also somehow "forgot" to learn up on Cisco before posting totally off-topic about it, you would know that Quality of Service tools in Cisco routers are by no means new, nor by no means a problem when used correctly by scrupulous service providers.
And playing with DNS like that is neither fun nor easy, and not a solution to the problem. The fact still remains that the Chinese Government (or whoever it really is) is attacking a machine with neither provocation or reason... so it really means nothing at all to just change which machine is getting attacked.
---
Tim Wilde
Sysadmin, Dynamic DNS Network Services
Actually, Most Favoured Nation status represents what we might well call "normal trading relations." Essentially, the MFN terminology is from an era of high tariffs, and "free trade" wasn't subscribed to by most governments. Back in the 19th century, most countries imposed tariffs to generate revenue, and any deviation from that policy was reserved for "favoured" nations.
I think there was a bill that would change "Most Favoured Nation" to "normal trade relations" in the official lexicons. I don't know if it passed.
Personally, I'm against free trade, inasmuch as it removes the ability of a country to conduct foriegn policy. If a country wants to close its markets for ideological reasons, it should be able to do so.
Sorry about the duplication, damned submit button was in the wrong place, I tell you!
---
Tim Wilde
Sysadmin, Dynamic DNS Network Services
Nuclear espionage. The Tienneman massacre. Military threats toward Taiwan and Tibet. Human rights violations too numerous to even list...
For this, China continues to be rewarded with Most Favored Nation status. Washington tries not to call it this anymore instead calling it low tarrif status whatever. It all amounts to the same thing. China can do no wrong and the most we'll do in response is FROWN really really really really really really really really really really really really really hard. Ooooo. That'll show 'em. But we'll keep smiling and shaking hands with these KILLERS rather than disrupt business. After all, its not Americans being brutalized, right?
Even Cuba isn't as bad as China yet Cuba suffers our wrath far more than China ever does.
A distant relative, no doubt, of Peter Noone, child star of British television show "Coronation Street", and former lead singer for "Herman's Hermits".
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
A few ppl have picked up on this already. But believe it or not the Chinese government is not
stupid. If they wanted to knock these sites out, a couple of hundred dollars to some US script kiddies would have solved the problem.
mmmm an attack from the public security ministry, don't think so. I think the only ppl commiting any crimes are the Journalists, either they are incompetent in the field (not suprising) or they did not do their research.
njd
According to an AP report I read on Thursday night (published in St Paul Pioneer Press), "Before the ban, an official estimate said 70 million people in China practiced Falun Gong, but the government later downgraded membership estimates to 2 million."
According to the New York Times (July 27) "The officials (1200 gov't followers of Falun Gong) were taken over the weekend to schools in a city in northern China, where they are being required to study Communist Party documents and to renounce any allegiance to the spiritual movement, the Information Center for Human Rights and Democratic Movement in China said Monday." and "Government organizations and quasi-governmental groups have been instructed to come forward to denounce Falun Gong, and to hold political study sessions to recite Marxist theory that few officials, and fewer ordinary people, believe in any more."
Great! Fight spiritual belief with Marxist propaganda! Let's see how effective that is in changing belief systems.
And of course, the PRC, have requested to extradite its founder who lives in the US. If the US does let Beijing have Li Hongzhi, its founder, the US will show it allows the PRC to do pretty much as it pleases.
Seems to me this is a typical crush the people ploy by the PRC, who cry wolf, suppress the perceived threat, then say the threat wasn't as bad as thought.
Regardless of whether or not a "script kiddie" spoofed addresses, it does not justify the PRC's use of intimdation and harassment against its own people. Since the movement was founded in 1992, I seriously doubt there is an organized attempt to take over the Chinese gov't by a bunch of religious fanatics as some have said here.
Please note I *do not* speak for anybody other than myself.
My point was (and I repeat, not paraphrase), there's a world of difference between democracy and totalitarianism. Not that both couldn't be responsible for crimes, nor that any government composed of and for human beings would be incapable of the depths to which humans can sink.
If you think the state-sponsored crimes of the U.S. throughout its history come close to the state-sponsored crimes of most totalitarian governments (the U.S.S.R. and China come to mind), then you and I have a serious disagreement.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Kythe
Although I think that's strictly true (I'm no political philosopher), the means adopted to institute communism are almost invariably political -- and totalitarian. For that matter, they usually seem to be top-down: a small group decides communism is a great idea, and forces it non-democratically upon the general populace.
While I think pure egalitarian idealism is laudable, I think it's also impractical -- and we have yet to see an example of socialism or communism that involves more than token democracy.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Kythe
No, they're not. They're trying to enforce laws more efficiently, and protect the U.S. from what they perceive as threats. I think there's a natural tendency in law enforcement to concentrate upon catching criminals to the exclusion of most else. It's our job to make sure these drives don't lead to a police state.
The belief that people like Janet Reno are deliberately out to subvert democracy and civil rights only encourages them to become more polarized -- and listen less to the concerns of civil rights activists.
Kythe
(Remove "x"'s from
Kythe
Now I see why the Chinese routinely kill their own people and others, routinely lie to their own people and the rest of the world....they must be of the same paranoid stock as you. Nowhere did the previous poster say anything racist, but your screaming diatribe attacks him simply for posting his views. But at least in this country, a diversity of opinion is tolerated....as opposed to your native land where you would probably become the next unwilling kidney donor. Get real.
Of course, it's also possible that the police were asked not to pursue the case, to minimise political fallout. After the bombing of the Chinese embasy, the LAST thing the US wants right now is for the Chinese to accuse them of sponsoring a revolution.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I meant "he won't mind going away..." sorry. cy
Call me darwinian, but isn't this Survival of the fittest? Apparently we were the fittest at the time and destroyed the competition at will. That of course may no longer be the case, China may turn our army into oatmeal and occupy Washington within the next month or two, or not... It's part of life until people stop focusing on differences between cultures. All of these people wanting to maintain their culture and ethnic identity, while I can respect that, are slowing the process of world peace. We need one culture if we are to have peace between all people, and until then we're going to kick each others asses every chance we get.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
* My information largely comes from articles in print (the "NY Times", largely) and from particularly reputable news journalists (e.g. the crew of "60 Minutes"). I don't visit conspiracy sites, because I tend to believe in individual malice and greed rather than conspiracies. In particular, the Cox Report cites multiple instances of what I've mentioned, especially regarding the Hughes/Loral (not Lockheed; my bad) launches. Examine the recent string of successes of PRC launches, and compare and constrast that with their pathetic attempts before the alleged technology transfers: their capabilities improved dramatically. That is why Congressional reports found violations of national security.
* The SKS rifles probably did not go to "gun nuts"; most "nuts", as you term them, probably would not be happy w/ Czech-style non-automatic rifles; nor would they have been likely to buy as many as were shipped. The likely consumers would have been criminal organizations, given the quantity.
* The tooling devices were covered in the Times *and* in mainstream journalism, not just conspiracy theories. The devices were shown, still in their boxes, by touring reporters; but the dispute has not been resolved.
* No, not everybody who's Asiatic is a PRC sympathizer. Did I suggest such? Instead, what you do find is that they can capitalize on: 1. A tendency among scientists to believe in openness of information. 2. A refusal among such to frequently consider the military ramifications of such, or to believe that the recipients would use them for evil. 3. Yes, sometimes sympathy. There have been documented instances of PRC mil intel engaging their overseas students, probing for information and access. Of course they're going to focus on their own overseas students, as well as any known Maoist-sympathizers over here, in the same way that the CIA probably would be talking to potential sympathizers over there.
* Taiwan has been ruling itself ever since the KMT fled the Mainland; hence, de facto, they are a separate state and not a province. The reason that they are not recognized by most nations is the PRC habit of suspending relations and trade with those that do, namely blackmail.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
I saw the page, the tone of it keep reminding me of this page
/
http://www.freeyellow.com/members7/geraldholmes
I really can't tell if it's serious of segfault. Maybe the original poster is smarter than I thought.
CY
When the Gov't is outnumbered by citizens by a billion or so people, there has to be some consent involved -- even if it's just the consensus that stability outweighs the price of chaos, and that more rights aren't worth risking your head for.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
So, as people have said, you can syn flood with a bogus IP. And, assuming that someone did, worst case (?) scenario could be that a Falun Gong (sp?) advocate could be doing this to bash the Chinese Government for their harsh treatment of Falun Gong practitioners and to make the world look down on the Chinese even more. Kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face, blaming it on someone else, starting a pity party for yourself...
Then again, maybe not. Maybe it really is the Chinese Government, or maybe it's someone else who doesn't like Falun Gong and/or the Chinese Goverment (and decided "to kill 2 birds with one stone."
Insert mind here.
It's worth mentioning that the chinese government may be similar like ours in that they are not a single organization, but a group of organizations.
What this means is that it may only be a small influential group that is trying to get rid of faul-gong-however-you-spell-it, and not representative of the whole. Just like when the NSA tries to ban crypto - you've got the Commerce Department going "huh?"
Now, having said that; Bad china. Baaaad. ROOM!
--
I have to admit, this sounds more like scr1p+ k1dd13 tactics than anything else. Then again, the Chinese government is loony enough to do it anyway. Who knows.
Bowie J. Poag
The poster seems to see no hypocrisy in the actions of his own government, apologies if you are not from the US.
He says that the Chinese government are harassing citizens of other countries. Now I am not sure about you, but I would rather be flooded with ICMP messages than Cluster bombs (Yes they did use them in Serbia as well as Vietnam among others).
The US feels that if they dont agree with an external country's policies, they are free to bomb the country into the ground, see Vietnam, Iraq, Serbia. Now you may feel that Iraq and Serbia are run by governments of questionable nature. But what the hell did Vietnam do to deserve the bombardment that it got ?????
On the other hand the citizens of the US are allegedly protected by all their ammendments. One day a country will respond and the US just *might * rethink their attitude to international relations.
njd
I don't how people like you live in the US. Americans are one of the most patriotic people on the face of the earth!
Am I suggesting that you are not patriotic? YES. you are so clouded by your judgement against the Chinese government that you failed to look at situation rationally and objectively! PEOPLE ARE DYING!!! I can't believe that you are looking at all those crying faces on TV, and telling me that they are all paid actors. Ohh, wait, you probably don't get to see the families of the demented, dying, and the dead. sorry, I forgot about the American media....
Well, there are demented, dying, and dead. Because of certain under-educated, self concocted, mystical believe system, that uses Budhist terminology, but does not follow budhist teachings. Its a mix of religion, meditation, and POLITICS. yes. it is a political organization. I remember once, the head of the organizatino said. "Some people practice Qigong under trees. but I see, that after a few years, the trees are dead from them rolling too much under them. Why must they practice Qigong under trees?? And kill the trees? Go practice some where else...."
The main activity for those people gathered in front of Chinese government office is to "Practice Qigong." the message was that some how that ground was a good place for practicing. But WHY? there are plenty of good places to practice Qigong, why infront of the Chinese government. Don't tell me that the Million men march in washington didn't have a political reason behind it. To claim that they must practice their Qigong infront of Chinese government, and that it was totally pure in intentions, and had no political reasons, and especially in such tumultuous times in China, is simply naive.
Qigong inherently does is not religious. People researched and utilized it for over 5000 years--Usually hidden in mountains, for exactly this reason: Very easily it can bring a "head cutting crime" to its practitioner. To use a Qigong organization, to even remotely promote such a sensitive activity, is just plainly not the way to go from Traditional Chinese Qigong.
Any ways, main point is, it is political. Treat it as a political activity that these people are involved in, and then tell me that you think the government is trying to disalow a political party.... I'm fine with that. Go and bite the government's head off if you want for doing that, and I might even help you chew.
My ~50 father pointed out that this is no different from the Russians using Radio interference to stop Radio Free Europe during the cold war.
Here in Sweden, which was always neutral, they could often not listen to it because of the Russian interference machines...
>Or, maybe the poster was pointing out that China
>has handed out death penalties for cracking yet
>cracks computers themselves.
Oh. Damn, you're probablly right. I just get all riled up when I think someone's attacking Slashdot. My apologies to the original poster.
Ross
I am one of the primary administrators for an ISP based out of Massachusetts. Our primary server came under a massive SYN flood attack starting Thursday night around 8:30EST and was unrelenting until Today [Saturday] 5:00pm. Our site has been a breeding ground for hack attempts (mostly script kiddies); apparently our site due to it's visibility [we're not a normal public ISP, we're more of one of those 'freenets']. I am actually amazingly surprised that the Chinese had anything to do with this; unless they were TRULY attacking random visible sites in the US. Although the time frames the articles suggests are on the button with our attacks.
.6 for the past day while it fended off the attack, as well as filling the syslogs full of warnings :) We've actually come under attack from a SYN flood before; but they were short and not nearly as aggressive.
:) Glad to see they are actually monitoring their networks.
Fortunately the linux kernel has SYN and RST cookies built in, once compiled into the kernel our box was as stable as an ox. Although the loadaverage was around
Since the corrupted packets were coming in from random IP and port addresses, our system would end up contacting random sites around the internet trying to establish the second half of the TCP connection. I've been receiving reports/warnings from a number of military network administrators complaining about our box.
Thant perhaps the chineese govt might
.sigs are taken! --
be aggravated about how NATO bombed the
embassy? This is just my opinion, but
if the chineese accidentally bombed the
US states embassy, I would start hacking
chineese sites.
-- all the good
I'm supposed to be working right now.
Ahem, Rant ahead:
STOP LUMPING ALL OF THE SEMI-CHRISTIAN FUDNAMENTALIST CULT GROUPS TOGETHER UNDER THE TERM CHRISTIAN!!!!!!!!!!
I'm getting really irritated by some people here just dumping the term Christians out with regards to every fundamentalist wacko that says he believes in God. The freaks that kill abortion doctors may claim to be Christian, but they are NOT! If they were Christians then they wouldn't be killing people as the bible is chock full of commands to 'Love thy neighbor' and '...not kill.'
So, please stop trying to squeeze me in with the psycho demon possessed freaks that go around killing people in the name of 'God'...
Ok, Rant is done with.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
IANA Diplomat, but I don't believe that attacking a web site quite meets the requirements to start a war.
And we must remember that there's really no way of knowing if it actually is the Chinese gov't doing this. It could be a Chinese script-kiddie, or a member of the movement/religion/whatever trying to attract attention. Or, as someone else said, a Free Tibet protester doing the same. Or a 14 year-old kid in Ohio. Hell, they may even have faked the attack to make China look bad.
This religion, just like any other, wants as much publicity as they can possibly get, just like the 'Free Tibet' we-want-our-own-theocracy morons.
The more people hear about them the more recruits they will get. It is a shame that Slashdot had to publish this artificial publicity for their organization.
But people like Janet Reno are trying to make the world more like China.
And you're encouraging it by saying that our token "democracies" are not as bad as China. Of course they're not. Yet. And we don't want to be heading in that direction either.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I'm not sure exactly where you're going with your post.
I avoided going into belief systems in my original post because it is not esential to understanding the reaction of the Chinese governments reaction.
I personally practice Qigong and cultivation techniques, so I certailny won't dismiss it as superstition. I do think that Falun Dafa may be oversimplifying things in places, but there's nothing new about that. I have not seen a doctor in over a decade, and I am in good health.
As for Falun Dafa being fake, I wouldn't be so sure.
People can die from many beliefs, including the belief that western medicine is the final authority on health. The Chinese government (which definatly has an agenda to support) is only able to point to 16 deaths from people failing to seek medical treatment. That is out of 70 million people (by their estimates). Pick any random 70 million people, and I'll bet you will find at least 16 who died of a treatable disease. 16 out of 70 million (or even 1 million) is not statistically significant. Far more than that die in traffic accidents.
As for the whole Koresh incident, they are now dead, but government intervention was for their own good. Keep in mind that Koresh could have been arrested during one of his regular trips into town, or while jogging off the compound (which he did regularly). If arresting him was the REAL motive for the incident, then the Fed. agencies are more stupid than I thought (which is saying a lot!).
A final note: Consider for a moment is 10,000 people walked into Washington D.C., and, without saying a word, sat in a circle around the White House. After sitting there wordlessly for the day, they all get up and walk away. You'd better believe the FBI and the Secret Service would be all over it.
I work for the Asian Broadcasting Union, a coalition of many asian news broadcasters. One included is CCTV, which is the major Chinese broadcaster in China (it also operates under the government). All of a sudden, last week, the Chinese government banned the religious sect of Falun Gong, without much of a reason at all. Ever since then, this whole week, I have seen transmissions of propaganda items depicting ex-Falun Gong members 'giving up their beliefs for the good of China'. This just shows that when the government of China wants something gone, they do their best to have it _Gone_. Also, I doubt this has anything to do with overzealous free-tibet script kiddies, because it's not big news, and from the script kiddies I know, they can't even spell Falun Gong ;)
That is all.
More like an act of vandalism. Lets not play into government paranoia about computer crimes. When we start equating digital vandalism with actual acts of violence, we are just begging for legislators to start goose-stepping all over our network and our liberties.
My information is a little out of date. I haven't been on a Chinese system since mid-1997. When I was there, here's how it worked:
All traffic was directed through a proxy server. The copy of Netscape I was using had the addresses pre-programmed. When I attempted to turn the proxies off, nothing worked correctly. There seemed to be a firewall that turned off web access from a user system at port 80. I could ssh back to my home system in Taiwan with no problems though...
I would half-disagree with the original poster's gut feeling. The People's Republic has enough ultra-nationalists to do stupid things like this that it is not necessary for the old hacks who actually draw a paycheck from the party to get involved.
J.
If they do want their site to be visible in China, perhaps that new QOS gizmo from Cisco can be used here.
Or, there are also a few tricks you can play with DNS, if you're in the hacking mood. Identify the specific netblocks used by the Chinese government, then rig your DNS server to send a different A record for the web site, in response to queries by the Chinese government. Put up a mirror of the controversial web site on some crappy 486, running Linux of course, and let the Chinese government bomb the blazes out of the poor machine that nobody but themselves uses...
--
> Later the United States propped up the Cambodian > Kmehr Rouge party, which slaughtered millions of > innocent civilians with American arms to "cleanse" the Cambodian peoples (They were insane, but anti-communist -- good enough for the United States).
I just want to point out that the Khmer Rouge where not backed by the US (they backed the military government of Gen. Lon Nol, who came to power by a US-backed coup against the rightful leader King Sihanouk. Lon-Nol was pro-US and lost the civil war against the Khmer Rouge in 1975), they also where in no way anti-communist. On the opposite, they practised a barbaric, fanatic way of communism often refered to as stone age communism, thus committing genocide on millions of Cambodians by either killing them because they were "intellectuals" like doctors, pilots, bus drivers etc. or by letting them starve to death by destroying nearly all of Cambodia's infrastructure (they had the idea that modern civiliation represented the evils of capitalism).
The US surely commited several political crimes in this century, but this wasn't one of these (even if they accelerated the downfall of non-communist Cambodia by bringing the Indochina war to Cambodia).
so it seems anonymus coward supports democracy but only if the citizens of the democracy are sensible enough not to believe foolish things. as we saw in tiannemen square ten years ago, china considers freedom of speach and anti- authoritarianism much more foolish than meditation.
and the branch davidians possesed gun dealer licences. thats how they made money to support thier foolish beliefs. the government lied about the 'illegal' part as they are prone to do after killing children under the pretense of saving them from abuse.
Can anyone say "Moral Majority?" Heck, if you don't like the right-wing, give Jimmy Carter (born-again Christian, spoke about his religious beliefs) a try. The one thing that both have in common is that most Americans don't want either in power and they aren't. Funny how a democracy works.
You just seriously compared murder (burning heretics) to political power. I fail to see the difference between what you are describing and any other political party. Isn't a political party a bunch of people who share a set of beliefs and work together to gain political power? I guess you just don't like the ones with "funny" beliefs. That makes you a bigot.
My take is that if the roman had succeded in crushing the Christian sect at its beginning, we would already have fusion reactors by now, skipping 1000 years of middle age, inquisition and relious zealotry.
You think the Roman Empire fell because of Christians? You think that the Roman Empire was a pluralistic, democratic society which encouraged innovation? You think the Roman Empire was even worth saving when the barbarians sacked Rome? Whoo boy, education has gone downhill.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Quoting the article, "Police spokesman Pete Piringer said that because the attack did not succeed in getting access to McWee's server, there did not seem to be a crime committed."
Someone needs to remind Mr. Piringer, along with the various state legislatures, that other attempted crimes (rape, murder, robbery, burglary, etc), are all quite illegal.
Not to stand up for the Chinese government here, ppl, but couldn't the group have organised this attack on themselves to draw the matter into the US public arena? (Or simply bolster their standing in the eyes of US citizens, since their plight was already revealed in the news media, eg TIME).
All I'm saying is be careful before you bandy about blame. A Falun Gong insider in the "Chinese national police bureau in Beijing" could just as easily done it.
Servers I administer are (generally) attacked once a week or more... I usually alert the administrator (if I can find out who it is) of the source...
On almost every occasion that I received a response, the source machine had been hacked already, and the cracker was using that machine as a base to launch other attacks... (again playing Devil's Advocate) if someone (besides the Chinese Government) had a vendetta against the ISP's in question, breaking into the Chinese Computers first would be a great way to misdirect blame...
I'm not defending the Chinese Government here, (I think they're involved in one way or another..) but it's not impossible that they're innocent of this...
Actually, the actual size of the Falun Gong movement is unknown, although the Chinese Government estimates it is AT LEAST 10 million. The Falun Gong itself reports having anywhere between 10 and 100 million, depending on who you ask.
Remember, in China people are often of more than one religion, and many do not consider themselves to be religious because Chinese religions are more like philosophies for living. Thus getting an accurate count of religions in China(and most of Asia as a whole) is impossible.
No, I don't want to censor you. The current moderation setup is not censorship. I'd just want to rate my opinion that your post looks like a troll.
And if the Romans had managed to crush Christianity, we'd probably have never gotten the idea that fusion reactors were possible. The Christians in the so-called "Dark" ages worked a lot harder on replacing manpower with machinepower (windmills and watermills) than the Romans did, because the Romans had gotten addicted to slavery.
Phil Fraering "Humans. Go Fig." - Rita
(currently testing something about signatures here)
As I know, Falun Gong is not a simple meditation technique, It IS a type of evil
:) (Why i read this article, i wonder why Falun Gong use internet,
...
...)
ways.
The founder of Falun Gong said he is the most powerful god in the world,
he is hundreds thousand times power than Sakyamuni(The founder of Buddhism).
He said the Earth is the dustbin of universe, and he decide the end of earth.
The earth should explosion in 1997, but he dalay the time for 30 years.
U must belive he and will go to heaven after the explosion of earth.
He said all guys work with computer is signd by Devil, the Devil is a kind of
alien. The peoples work with computer is tools of Devil, it is to control
human being.
and create a internet site, it seemed humor)
If u believe Falun Gong, you should not believe anything else, the only ONE thing
u can read is Falun Gong's book and it's press. U should burn all other books,
newspapers
If u believe Falun Gong, you MUST NOT go to hospital while you got sick.
This make a amount of guy die of sick.
Falun Gong also make a lots of man mad. One student of our university sucide in Germany,
He believe Falun Gong, and jump from high building while he join a meeting of it.
A kid kill his parents because after he study Falun Gong, he found he is buddha and his
parents is devil. (What a sad
As report, there are more than 700 person die of Falun Gong!!!
This is the truth of Falun Gong.
DO U THINK ITS EVIL?
DO U THINK IT SHOULD BE FORBID?
DO U THINK THE FOUNDER OF IT IS A CRIMINAL?
( If u can read chinese, i suggest u go to http://www.xys.org/~ppfl/ )
(After all, when was the last time you saw an AP reporter who even knew what a WHOIS lookup was, let alone one who would consider that the concept of "contact information" for domains in a country like China might be completely different from that in the States.)
Don't you think that maybe people who would know how to do this, for instance U.S. Government hackers who might not want to go public, might contact reporters and give them enough info and background to do such checks? I'm sure there's a lot going on behind the scenes we simply don't know.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Those commies always were just a bunch of script kiddies! ;) ;)
I read about this in my local paper. Seems they were syn-flooding several sites, spoofing the IP of the Dept. of Transportation. But why is this so shocking? After all, the U.S. gov't authorized American crackers to go after Milosevich's (sp?) bank accounts.
I think you can figure out how to email me
I think you can figure out how to email me
PGP Key:
...IP address space out of China is constantly responsible for low impact, higher level attacks at ISPs that server US military members overseas and domestically. Some of the attacks are amzaingly stealthy. You'd be surprised what folks with clearances keep on their home machines...
.mil were yanked from the internet (let's face it, the concept air gap just doesn't register with some Maj. Fred Flinstoners who stare at two terminals all day) and Chinese government networks black-holed (let's forget faludung or whatever it's called... just one word: Tabet... awww fscks-sake, let's just admit that Japan is just another rebel provence of China).
I think it would be a good idea if the
Good discipline for both childern.
It's an international jungle out there folks... you need to decided if you're preditor, prey or omnivore.
It's amazing, I guess. It appears Government stupidity is not limited to the US. I mean, for a Government to be so stupid as to hack for there own computers? not even I would do that..
/. About the Info guy who broke into the same network Where the suspected Chinese spy had stored *tons* of nuclear weapons information on his insecure "white box"(Los Alamos, I think). It's posible that the chinese could just have easly broken into that, to get the latest nucliar secrets
:P) To created the perceived need for the idiotic FIDNET...(They chose China beacuse the didn't want to look so supid as to be hacked by Iraq or Serbia....)
I'm not sure if I believe this, personally. I mean, look at that article before on
I think the Chinese hackers are better then that. They did manage to get a lot of our stuff before, with out our knowledge. I don't think it was them.(or at least not the same agents)
Think about it, if you could hack into the Chinese computers, then *you* could pull this off. This could in fact be any organization or even an individual (Taiwan, a dissident, someone looking to start world war 3 for kicks?).
I don't think we can jump to any conclusions just yet. IMHO
Perhaps this was just a PR stunt by the NSA/DOJ/FBI/Al Gore (he created the internet, he must be a good hacker
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The People's Republic of China is a nuclear power.
Any more rhetorical questions?
You're wrong. The reason we don't treat China like any other country is because they have over a billion people to our 280 million. If we get them angry, they can just turn around and stomp us into the ground. Or at least give us a horrible scare.
Uhhh... China has more english speakers than North America. What's wrong with China having a backbone and trying to preserve their way of life, rather than rushing head over heels to become westernized and english speaking.
If we're so eager to get into their markets, the least bit we could do is learn their language. Or would that be too much effort>?
I think he's refering to George Orwell's novel "1984". Although I've never read it so I could be wrong :)
-- Ace
too bad Cuba has better health care.
if you don't like the options, run for president yourself.
Mmmmm - egg foo yough... chicken fingers... hot & sour soup... shrimp fried rice... need I say more? I'm hungry
Massive multicultural democracies like the United States, India, Canada, and possibly eventually the European-Union are completely different from immense monocultural countries like China and Japan. Multicultural democracies have to tolerate dissent and even some weird fringe groups because any attempt to crack down on them would likely lead to a civil war at some point. Some do a better job of it than others, but to a degree, it is a prerequisite for survival. Accepting differences is just a matter of acknowledging a reality one could do little about.
In contrast, China has only one time zone for a country with the east-west expansiveness of the continental United States. China could eliminate all non-Han people (through intermarriage, reeducation, or simple killing) and still carry on as though nothing had happened. In fact, I don't think that anybody in the ruling leadership of China would mind! Its identity is very different and monolithic which explains the extreme vehemence with which the PRC goes against anything perceived as being "splittist." It has had one shared written language for centuries. It isn't going to let a bunch of punks, crazy or otherwise, stand in the way of its "glorious unity." When those 10,000 people demonstrated peacefully, they knew what they were inviting upon themselves.
While I personally believe that the future belongs to diversity and multicultural cooperation, I also see that the Chinese don't necessarily agree. As long as they stay in their corner and don't mess with any of us, it doesn't have to get ugly. But one of these days, it will. Think about it, with Tibet (the traditional religious buffer state that nobody in the past would have bothered to invade. Who wants to beat up on a bunch of monks?) under Chinese millitary occupation, China and India now share a border and one is monolithic and the other multicultural. Right now, both are millitarily weak with India much more so, so conflict there is not on the horizon... yet.
Thankfully, the USA does not share a border with China. But that does not mean that conflict is not coming. The Chinese are just trying to delay that as much as possible, while like it or not, the USA is covertly trying its best to hasten that day's arrival by doing what it can to support "splittism" in China without seeming overt about it. I doubt it is coincidental that Falgun-Gong is based in the USA.
You just seriously compared murder (burning heretics) to political power. I fail to see the difference between what you are describing and any other political party. Isn't a political party a bunch of people who share a set of beliefs and work together to gain political power?
Which is exactly my point : if Falun Gong want to be a political power (which is obviously their goal), then they can make a political party and have a clear program. But no, they prefer to recruit people under religious stuff... why ? Because it is much easier to manipulate people under the fear of "God" (or whatever) rather than talk them like any politicians would do to its partisans.
Obviously the Scientologie is a business, not a religion. So why do they stay religious ? Tax relief ? Sure, and also because they lure people easier that way.
I guess you just don't like the ones with "funny" beliefs. That makes you a bigot.
Since I'm an atheist I guess I must be the first "biggot" atheist. My take is that any religion is evil because it never stays a religion: the people who control it soon try to take advantage of it for their sole. Earth would be a better place without religion, but we have to deal with it anyway. Would you want to protect the Aum sect (Japan, not sure of spelling), even when they release toxic gaz in the subway, spread Anthrax and stockpile weapons for "the end of the world" (sound familiar ?) ? I bet no, because they are not acting like just a religion but like a bunch of dangerous terrorists. Falun Gong is the same, they are under control of one guru, and they want power. The Chinese governement can either let them have their way and take over the country (the true goal of the sect it seems) or crush them before that. I would trust a bunch of lunatics with control of a nuclear arsenal...
You think the Roman Empire fell because of Christians?
Nope, where did I said that ? I said it failed to crush the Christians. That doesn't mean the opposite is true. Don't people learn logic nowadays ?
You think that the Roman Empire was a pluralistic, democratic society which encouraged innovation?
Nope, never said that either. But at least they were much better than the Chrisitan biggots who reigned over Europe for a good millenium. Romans where quite open to innovation, while the Christians where strongly against anything new (like every religion is).
You think the Roman Empire was even worth saving when the barbarians sacked Rome?
Nope, I didn't even spoke about the barbarians and the fall of Rome. You need to have your eyes checked.
And please keep in mind that the American attacks were an act of war. Should we take China's (believed) attacks against (presumably) American citizens and companies as an act of war?
--Lenny
Reported on rootshell:
Chinese crackers sentenced to death
12/29/98 2:44PM PDT
Two crackers who stole $31,400 from a bank in eastern China have been sentenced to DEATH.
Reported on Slashdot:
Chinese Government Implicated in DoS on US Site
Posted by CmdrTaco on Saturday July 31, @01:28PM EDT
Any questions?
>
> The address McWee said was left behind is registered with the
> Asia Pacific Network Information Centre, a public registry service
> for Internet addressees. According to the service, there are two
> phone numbers in Beijing listed with that address.
>
> When The Associated Press called the numbers, a person who
> answered the phone identified them as belonging to the Public
> Security Ministry. A telephone operator at the ministry said they
> belonged to its Internet Monitoring Bureau.
Silly question for y'all... as much as I'd like to believe that the Chinese Government is involved in DOSing "subversive" sites around the world, I remember reading something to the effect that all IP connectivity from China to the rest of the world goes through some sort of monitoring/firewall/gateway thingy.
If, for WWW access, this takes the form of some sort of proxy, perhaps it's only natural that the IP addresses of Chinese surfers appear to all be coming from a netblock controlled by the "Internet Monitoring Bureau"? Maybe it's the Chinese Government, maybe it's a Chinese script kiddie.
Maybe the Internet Monitoring Bureau, as they presumably have control over what domains get registered, happens to be the default telephone contact for domains in .cn, whether or not all traffic goes through a proxy server.
Does anyone have any hard information on how "Internet access" works in China?
My gut says it's still the Chinese government. But my brain's telling me not to jump to conclusions, especially when the most sensational "evidence" is based a phone call from an Associated Press reporter from a WHOIS lookup on APNIC.
(After all, when was the last time you saw an AP reporter who even knew what a WHOIS lookup was, let alone one who would consider that the concept of "contact information" for domains in a country like China might be completely different from that in the States.)
So - like I said - anyone know how IP connectivity in China really works and that this isn't just a red herring?
It'll be much more helpful if you actually know what's going on, like how they arrested 100+ high profile memebers of Falun Gong. The estimated size of Falun Gong is at 70 million members in China, while the communist party is only at 60 million.
So they're scared they got some real political power, and they crack them down. However, Falun Gong is more like a martial arts discipline.
:. Ultimate Control Dedicated/VM Servers
(1) Not shocked, maybe, but it sure is causing a lot of fuss. ;)
(2) Oh, since we won, now we can call it a war? It's only a war after you win?
I think you can figure out how to email me
I think you can figure out how to email me
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If Al Gore created the internet, then he must be responsible for all of the p0rn and violence on it that is corrupting the minds of little (15) children like myself, turning us into mindless killers. So much for "family values" :P
;)
I think you can figure out how to email me
I think you can figure out how to email me
PGP Key: