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Ask Slashdot: Affordable, Functional Audio Mixers?
hfcs asks: "I'm looking for sources for an affordable, 4-6 channel, compact, stereo, line-level audio mixer. In my office I have 4 PCs (Linux, W95, NT, Mac) and CD player, each demanding their own speakers for audio output. Low end pro-sumer stuff (Radio Shack & the like) start at $200 for this, but it's huge. Decent mixers start well above that. A master volume would be nice, but since each device can do it's own output level, so I don't need channel level control. I just want to be able to hook everything up to one nice set of amplified speakers rather than 4 independent mediocre sets without damaging any of the sources. Any suggestions?"
I have three computers cascaded that way and it works just fine. Note that you have to have half-way decent sound cards (cards with a line-in) and all computers in between the one you're listening to and the one that's playing the sound have to be on (obviously).
Well, yeah. But if it doesn't ruin the equipment (remember, if it is a high impedance output, even if it is protected by a resistor, it won't like being shorted...) it will make the sound (more) horrible (as if PC soundcards themselves weren't bad enough). No, I'm sure you'd never get any smoke, and generally no ruined parts (although you should read the earlier post where the guy broke his Discman this way) but connecting things like this is a definite no-no.
Don't forget, we're talking PC soundcards here. The outputs are designed to drive P.O.S. speakers. So they probably won't be protected (for maximum loudness), and are likely overdriving the P.O.S. "amp" IC in the card anyways.
As far as quality equipment goes (ie, non computer stuff), you're probably ok. Don't blame me if you bust something though.
Sorry, just needed to clarify a couple of points.
No, you have broken crap now. Again, I reiterate:
(a). Y Jacks make stuff sound like crap.
(b). Y Jacks short out your equipment.
(c). Y Jacks are meant to SPLIT, not combine.
I've never seen so many people who think that electricity works just like water...
If you do what this person suggested, you may (will) ruin stuff.
Awesome! A cheap, sane (ie, not Y Cable), and workable solution! Woohoo! Now the guy doesn't have to buy a $200 solution to a $5 problem.
:-)
This, and the build a cheap active mixer posts, are what the guy needs. I mean, you're talking computer speakers here, you don't need super quality, just something that works and is safe!
You, like the other build it yourself poster, need 3 points...
Exactly, since he is using amplified speakers, then it's simple to make a passive mixer with muting switches and a master volume. each input (from each source, left and right) has a series resistor (say 4.7k ohms) fed to one side of a SPST switch (other side of switch tied to common ground) then to another 4.7k ohm resistor to a common tie point for that channel (lets say the left channel) to one side of a 100k pot. Wiper of this pot goes to the output terminal of that channel and the far side of pot ties to ground. Simple passive mixer with mute for _cheap_, should be able to get all parts and box to put it in for $20 - $25 at a local electronics outlet (Radio Shack will be slightly more expensive. If this doesn't give a clear picture of the circuit then do a search for passive mixers at some electronic circuit sites. ciao
Yeh, the 1202 rules. My studio started out on one of those ;). See if you can find a used one on ebay or amazon auctions. I wouldn't buy new, if your budget is tight. They are DEFINATLY worth the money. You might also want to see if you can pick up Behringers 1202 clone (forgot its model... you'll know it when you see it) its about $100 cheaper, might be hard to find used tho
I have owned a Behringer mx2004 for allmost 2 years, recently dumped it in favor of the Behringer mx3282A. Some things to think about: In the past Mackie has sued Behringer because they made allmost exact copies of their mixers at half the price. Both Behringer and Mackie use the same types of pots and faders from Panasonic. Mackie mixers are being made in the US, where wages are considerably higher than China, where Behringer products are being made. 90% of the noise generated at the 'main mix outputs' come from my external equipment attached to the mixer. If I had shelled out a load of cash for something, and then suddenly this company would come along that offered allmost exactly the same product for half (or even less than half) the price, I would be inclined to think that it was bad and dis it, otherwise I'd feel myself a real fool for wasting my hard-earned money. I, nor the other people I know who have used Behringer products ever had any problem with failing Behringer equipment. I sold my mx2004 after allmost 2 years for about 2/3rd of the price I paid for it. I'd say go for the Behringer equipment. If it's just for mixing audio coming from several pc's soundcards, you probably don't give a shit about some 'pro' people saying the pre-amps sound thin or the eq is harsh or whatever.
you forgot a circuit board, soldier, a soldiering iron, and skill at using these tools.
Get a Roland MX-5. It has four full stereo channels with sliders and one stereo channel whose mix level is controlled with a knob, plus a master volume. I think you can snag one for less than $100. It won't muck with your audio enough to make it a problem. (I know some good musicians who use 'em, even when mastering to CD -- and you probably own one of their CDs!)
That's what I do. I have 3 computers, and it works great. You need to have high quality (very low noise, high SNR) sound cards for this to work well, though.
assuming they run linux... why not? :)
The above comments are correct. A line switcher is the best option since you really need 10 inputs; 2 from each computer (8) and the CD player (2 more). The Mackie 1202 models will not easily support this without adapters and such. The Niles switchers are no doubt more likely to be "buffered" against damaging the speakers than anything coming out of Radio Shack. Either way, you don't need a mixer!
http://www.mackie.com/Main.html For those of you too lazy to use Yahoo... :)
Mackie
http://www.midiman.com/Html/products/mixers.htm
This stuff looks like it's exactly what you're looking for... and only $120 for 10 channels (5 stereo channels) or $100 for 6 channels (3 stereo).
I play the guitar for the most part. sometimes I sample some of my drum playing to make a loop. (I'm too eclectic to be a real drummer. ;)) I play everything from classical to "I have no idea how to categorize it". I started out recording with a Tascam Porta-07 mini-studio and an Amiga 500. If anyone wants to listem to some of my music I have a few mp3s on my web page. Check it out and let me know what you think.
Here's a picture of my BST Tiny 10 Mixer. I got mine for about $70 from www.pssl.com. Highly recommended.
On a side note:
I've been looking to set up a mini-recording 'studio', preferably under Linux. Does anyone have good sound-card & software reccomendations? (The AWE64 I have doesn't cut it). Is there anything even close to Cubase in software out there?
I'm a professional dj, and I swear by my Vestax mixer. Vestax makes many different models, and the one that you are looking for will probable run you about $250-300. You also might want to check pawn shops from a mixing board.
I'm very happy with my Gemini 626 Pro. I got it for $250 at Guitar Center. Only three channels, but each channel has two inputs that you can switch between. A DJ mixer, so play with the crossfader if you feel like it.
Hi, I've been hearing for years that the Macs are the best for recording music, and I was curious about what the advantages of Macs are in this respect. Andrew squid@rconnect.com
Buy Vestax or Rane if you want the mixer to last more than 5 years.
I just realized something. This is something that should be included as part of those Digital switchboxes for Keyboard/Video/Mouse that are becoming popular. I've got one of these switchboxes, and they're great, I can flip between the systems using a keyboard sequence. However, to change my audio I've got to punch the right button on the input selector I've got. Be nice if the KVM boxes would include audio!
If you know that you're not likely to get more audio related equipment, you might be happy with a simple switch box and possibly a small amplifier, which you may already have. Radio Shack has a switch box which I think allows you to switch between three stereo RCA inputs. If you were also using an ordinary stereo amplifier, it would also have at least two inputs (more modern ones have inputs for 3 or more components). Together that would probably solve your problem. However, if this is merely the tip of the iceberg and you plan to get more audio stuff or record music, I'd add my voice to the chorus and suggest that you buy the Behringer MX802A. You could concievably hook about 5 stereo devices into this, or 6 into a Mackie 1202 (which is a bit larger, and more expensive). The mixer option gives you a considerable amount of flexibility, but at increased cost. It's worth it in the long run if you're into multimedia, though..
I have 4 machines in my room. The all are piped into an off the shelf Sony system. Just use the DVD, MD, CD, LD, video, tape, etc. (anything but phono) inputs with your machines. You can get adapters that convert 1/8" phono miniplugs (common soundcard output) to RCA (common stereo input) connectors for $2 each.
Craig Anderton, the DIY geekmeister of electronic music, wrote a really good book called Electronic Projects for Musicians or something like that. I don't know if it's still in print, but it had a few mixer plans as I remember...
You don't want a mixer unless you have a particular desire to hear the cacophony of all your computers and CD player playing out of sync at the same time. Buy a cheap switch box for $25 from radio shack or whatever and be happy. If you really want to hear all 4 computers at the same time, you will probably be disappointed... the combined hiss from 4 typical computer sound cards would be enough to drive me insane!
Studio Master Diamond Compact 4-2. Has everything you wanted, even a master volume. Do a search for studio master, you'll find 'em
Listen to Loopy--an input selector (line level switching system) is all you need. As useful as they are, there are times when a computer is not the tool for the job. This would be one of them. The oft-mentioned Radio Shack carries moderately priced switchers that aren't perfect in terms of the sound they deliver or their build quality (personal experience). Every decent setup I see in installations where price is still somewhat of an object uses Niles Audio equipment.
what can i do with it
BWAHAHAHAHA!! O-Hohohoho!! E-hehehehe!! Now, that's one funny sig line you got!! ^_^ ..for geeks only.. ..BWAHAHAHA! ...
Most soundcards have line out's and line in's. Why not just run the line out of each of your machines into the next one down the line and set each computers mixer to the same level, and use the volume control on the LAST one to control them all...?
Mail me, I'm thinking of building something like this too, I can probably give you some circuits too... (xxxshepdxxx @ (xxxspam sucksxxx) xxxgolden.netxxx) Remove xxx and spam sucks to get a real mail address...
It's made by Event Electronics. There was another card (similar idea) made by Hoontech. It actually accepted external pulg-in modules for analog/digital sound in and out (and a whole bunch of other stuff) but their web site seems to have vanished.
Actually, a beowulf cluster, each machine with a couple soundcards, could be used to make a great mixer.
Sorry, but all threads on slashdot have to mention beowulf clusters, and this one didn't yet.
http://www.edirol .com/music_equipment/roland_accessories/mx5.html
I've got a MX-5 to supplement my Mackie 1202.
Nope. Audio signals are alternating current, which by definition means "it goes both ways". So you'd be chopping off half of every cycle. And it wouldn't even be exactly half becasue diodes have a threshold voltage before the allow current anyway (0.7v for silicon, IIRC) So you end up with an almost-half wave with a .7 v DC bias, I shudder to think what that's gonna sound like...
I run my Mac and PC sound outputs into a Y-cable and from there into my Cambridge Soundworks PC audio setup. Works great, no problem with overloading. But I haven't tried 4 systems, so YMMV...
All you need is a pair of halfway decent op-amps (TL-082 dual for example), a quiet power supply, some variable resistors (slide, audio taper), a cap or two, and the little book of Op-Amp projects from Radio Shack. This is essentially what is inside better amplified speakers that have multiple inputs, only there the resistors are fixed as the mixing is not adjustable.
If your not too concerned with quality or whatever, you can just cut the wires from your speaker outs and splice them into 1 and plug that into your speakers. hehe. all this open source coding has me down on the cash. :))
Not just bad, but you'll ruin one of the sources... You can do it passively, but you will need resistors or potentiometers, and some electronics skill... And then, it'll still sound like crap, and need amplifying.
You must have some crappy audio equipment... ;-) If you had good stuff, connecting things together like this will ruin it. The same way shorting two RS232 ports doesn't mean you can run two serial cables into one line. +1 V into a jack at -1 V spells death unless you're amp is protected (on crappy consumer stuff, you can sometimes get away with it). Bottom line, don't do it!
A company named "Pyramid" makes some nice 4x2 channel audio mixers. They have models going for as low as $79 CANADIAN $. My current mixer is a Pyramid 9001G which I have purchased 2 years ago for $325 canadian, has a built in sampler, 4 channel switchable for 8 inputs + 2 MIC input, and 1 REC output and 1 AMP output and a 10 band EQ. For $79 CAN$ you could get a 4 channel switchable for 8 with 1 mic input and 7x2 band EQ. I think pyramid is based out of NJ. BTW.. dang .. I can't log into my slashdot acct.. ah well.. it's DJStealth
If you are handy with a soldering iron... this may help: A few years ago, I was in need of a mixer for a semi-pro situation. I needed 16 individual ins and stereo outs. I found a circuit in a book called: Audio Technology Fundamentals, by Alan A. Cohen. I left out the potentiometers (volume controls) and filtering capacitors since my application really didn't need them. For about $10 worth of parts from a local electronics surplus store, I had a 8x2 stereo mixer. It took me a weekend to build. The best thing is that to add more inputs, all I had to do was buy more resistors and 1/4 headphone jacks. I eventually has 24 stereo channels going into it for an additional $20 worth of parts. You don't have any frills like tone control or volume, but it works VERY well. The book suggests 741 op-amps, but I used TL-082 which is pin for pin compatible. The op-amps shouldn't cost you more than $.50-.75 each and you will only need two. An alternative which your setup may be even more suited to is a passive mixer. All it would require is six resistors, four RCA jacks and four 1/8th inch to RCA Male L and R connector cables. You won't need any active electronics. The volume of each machine will be decreased slightly, but if you are going into amplified speakers, that shouldn't matter much. If you are interested in getting a schematic for either circuit, E-mail me at eno@stratos.net (Not logged in sorry!)
You might want to search rec.audio.pro with Deja for "Behringer" to see what the audio professionals think about Behringer. (Hint. How is Microsoft generally regarded to on Slashdot?)
http://www.edirol .com/music_equipment/roland_accessories/mx5.html
I've got a MX-5 to supplement my Mackie 1202. A 1202 is overkill when all you want to do is connect the sound card outputs from several computers. The 1202 only has 1/4" input jacks, which means using a lot of RCA to 1/4" adapters.
I'm glad to see all the support for the Mackie mixers, because they truly are the best mixers you will find in that price range. I have 3 Mackies and I love them.
If you decide to spend the extra money, you can try to find a Mackie 1202. The original (non VLZ or VLZ Pro) should go for about $200. I think it only has two stereo inputs, but there are 8 mono inputs too.
You can find street prices for used pro audio gear at http://www.midiwall.com/usedgear/
If you're handy with a soldering iron, making a passive mixer is a fairly straightforward project. You'd need 4 stereo potentiometers, four input jacks and an output pair. All that stuff is available from DigiKey.
If you can handle listening to one source at a time, you could buy an old stereo receiver at a garage sale for well under $100, and hook all of your sources up to that. Even if you go the mixer route, I'd recommend getting an old amp and some bookshelf speakers instead of using traditional amplified speakers, as you'll get higher quality for the money.
with a couple of 6PST (or is it 6PDT?) switches (for left and right channes) and a low noise opamp/ps combo (if you want amplification) or just a potentiometer (if you just want attenuation). Definitely cheaper and for an office environment probably just as effective as spending $x00 on a quality mixer board, especially as you would need 8 or 12 tracks for the environment you described.
You can't just use Y cables because you'd be bridging the output circuits of those devices. This would likely burn them out or cause serious damage to them. You need some resistors in the circuit to prevent this. Look in an electronics manual for the designs to a "passive summing circuit" which would be WAY cheaper than a mixer, though less flexible. Basically you'd be using cheap resistors in the place of the fancy faders. You can't do it with a stereo amp because then you're limited to one input at a time.
This is why mixers were built. Splicing one audio source to a bunch of speakers is okay, but multiple audio sources should not be spliced to one or more speakers on the same circuit. Reason is that electricity takes the path of least resistance. If you have enough voltage coming from one audio source, there's a chance it'll creep up the wire to the output of one of your other audio sources. That's bad.
doing this. Don't Do It.
I beg to differ. Try putting a two equal resistors across the car battery. Now make the center of the two resistors ground. You have +6 volts on the positive, and -6 volts on the negative. If you use other eletronics you can do a less wasteful design, and even boost the voltage if you use a switching power supply method (this is what GOOD car amps do...).
Current one way would make the speaker always move one way (out _or_ in, not both). This would, quite simply, suck for getting any decent SPL rating out of car speakers.
Also, don't forget, most sane car speaker designers use a "floating" ground for the negative terminal of the speakers (certainly not the line input of the amplifier) so they can put a negative (below ground) voltage on the negative terminal.
I don't know how well this would work, but couln't you just chain the output of one sound card into the line input of the next? Then just plug the last output to the amp.
I had a similiar problem, except for me I had 3 outputs: computer speakers, stereo, headphones. I had 3 inputs. I wanted to be able to send any input to any output. Mixers wouldn't do that for me, as anything but the *really* expensive ones only handle one or maybe two outputs. I designed a box that would allow you to send each input to one or more outputs. Each output could have one or more inputs to it. Each input and output had a volume control. The problem is that the cost of building this started growing very fast. It would have cost me well over $100 at the rate I was going. So, I ended up building a simple box with triple-throw quad-pole rotary switches. I can put each input device to exactly one output device. It works pretty well, and only cost about $30 including the case.
Moderate Bastard Childs post way up this is what the original poster is asking for.
Mackie posts are off topic. (I like mackie stuff but its not appropriate to the guys question)
You mention four computers and a CD player. Mixer channels are mono channels, so what you're really looking for is an 8-12 channel mixer (assuming you want stereo). I would take a look at the Samson Mixpad 9 which won't allow you to hook all of that stuff up at the same time but is far better quality than Radio Shack. The Mixpad 12 would let you hook all that stuff up and more. The Mixpad 9 is about $200, the Mixpad 12 might be $275. The Samson mixers I've used have been exceptional values. Don't go for pro-sumer... The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price. A good dealer is Sweetwater Sound, http://www.sweetwater.com.
One thing to watch out is your speakers, though. If you're using amplified speakers, building your own mixer is easy. If your speakers aren't amplified, though, you will probably want to buy a cheep commercial (read: surplus) amplifier. Amplifiers aren't too easy to build yourself if you want to get decent volume and little noise.
If you're looking for parts, check out company like National Semiconductors. They have a wide variety of parts to pick from. http://www.national.com
Good luck
m
For building something like this, I suggest the parts company Newark/Farnell. I've done a lot of business with these folks and they're great....you can check their site out at http://www.newark.com Good luck to you.....if all you're looking to do is switch between sources and go straight to the powered speakers, a few RCAs, and a multichannel knob would work well, just use some shielded wire....
Have you released the mixes on mp3?
We used a 1604-VLZ when I was working for my high school's TV station--man, that thing was smoooth. Didn't get to be sound guy that much, but it took every single crappy output we gave it and begged for more... ;)
Once, the teacher who ran the lab had most of the equipment in his car; out of a DV handycam, Panasonic video mixer, and one of the studio quality cameras--the Mackie 1604-VLZ was the only thing stolen.
(We did get it back--the kid that stole it simply put it in the backseat of his car. Mr. Guard just made a visual sweep of the parking lot.)
--
The guy was saying $200 was more than he wanted to spend. If you could get a mackie for like $50 then maybe that might be what he was looking for.
Dude you need a Neve or maybe an SSL,
You can pick up a used Neve in good condition
for about $50k US
Of course if you don't care
about the sound quality and want lotsa
bells and whistles go for the SSL
In case you can't tell, this is sarcasm
Unity Gain
Allow me to add another endorsement of the Mackie boards. I've used several of them and if you're the type that's on a budget, you won't get any better. Best of all, they're built to last.
As for something $200 bucks or less? Maybe a used board, but I havn't seen any new ones that would be up to the job.
VENI! VIDI! VICI!
Grab a book on basic audio design...should be possible to hackup a simple(but high quality) mixer with a couple of $ worth of components, a bit of stripboard and an hour or two of time.
However when I needed such a thing I bought one.. from Tandy(Radio Shack for my American readers) for £50($75) which has 3 mic channels + 2 line, VU meters, etc. That was years ago so they're probably much much cheaper now.
Behringer makes some cheap and good mixers. I am going to buy a Behringer 1602, which handles 8 channels stereo, which costs about $ 250 here in the Netherlands. For your applications a simpler one (and thus cheaper one) would be sufficient.
Now a question - why is it that everybody's been recommending mixers? What's the advantage of a mixer over a setup like mine (a component-based stereo system with some AUX inputs for the computer).
the main features is being able to play multiple audio sources at once and mix them (hence the name 'mixer').... Your stereo only lets you select inputs, not blend them.Typically only 2 channels, tho
I faced a similar but lesser problem: I had two computers and one set of Sambridge Soundworks speakers which I wanted them to share. People on Usenet told me to just us a Y-splitter to hook both computers to the speakers simultaneously, but the little I remember of EE in college taught me never to connect two outs or you'll blow them!
The solution I found was a $20 three-source switchbox from Radio Shack, three Y adapter cables (mini stereo plug to R/L phono plugs) for like $2.50 each, and a fem/fem mini stereo gender changer. I hooked the two computers into the switchbox, then connected the switchbox to the wire-with-volume-dial that came with the Cambridge Soundworks amp.
It works great! I can only listen to one computer at a time, but how often do I really need to listen to both of them?
I've been using a Midiman Multimixer 6 for the past few years to mix my synths, CD and PC. It really rocks, is very small (15x8cm/6x3in), exceptionally robust (metal casing), the sound quality is second to none, and the beasties are dirt cheap.
www.midiman.com/Html/products/mixer s.htm
The Multimixer 6 has 6 mono channels, with pan/gain on each one you can assign stereo and balance as you require. The Multimixer 10 has an added 2 stereo channels (also with pan/gain). Both units feature seperate left/right master gain controls.
Mixer power is taken from a 9v adaptor.
To further the flexibility of my system the Midiman is chained to a hi-fi amp.
I have no connection with Midiman other than as a satisfied customer.
--
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
I have been doing a lot of mixing and pre/post-production on computers the last few years. Check out Water on mp3.com , if like what you hear give us some feed back we could use it. Check out Musicians Friend and look at the Berringer line of mixers, a lot cheaper than the nice Mackie brand, but just as good if not better.
The Alesis 12R is a nice little rackmountable 12 channel mixer with 1/4" and xlr inputs on 8 channels + 2 stereo inputs. Inserts on 8 channels let you go out to a multitrack recorder (whoo hoo!) if you so desire.
The whole thing's about the size of component tape deck. Phantom power on all mic inputs, too. Fair deal at $350, brand-spankin' new. Check your local muzak mart.
**>>BELCH
I will add my voice to the suggestions above, and say that YES, Mackies are a happy thing, as well as some of the Yamahas for what you are looking for. If you want to know where to go, besides places like e-Bay, and instument/music stores, look for high end consumer audio/video equipment stores.
I don't know what coast you are on, but if west coast, i'm talking like Chealsea audio,(two plus steps above Magnolia Hi-Fi) they do both quality audio and video, and although you won't see the boards on display the same as the amps and tv's, they prolly know/have access to the types of board you are interested in. And can give you real world help on what else you might need/want to add extra value for your buck in.
I cascade a DVD MPEG decoder board and two AWE64Gold cards in this way, and this permanent mix works just fine, without noise problems. Note though that it's not as flexible as wiring each output separately into its own mixer input. If you can afford it, buy an external musician's mixer (remembering that you need two channels for each sound card), but you'll really find it a pain not to have the online input-gain/output-volume controls that we take for granted on sound cards.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I can vouch for this being quite a nice choice. The audio quality is excellent, being quieter than almost any sound card you could possibly find (noise floor around -100dB) and being quite versatile. :-)
It ha an excellent frequencey response as well if you're into recording bat chatter.
I have myt CD player plugged into it as well as my PC right now, and I am feeding out to a set of speakers as my headphones.
I use it mainly for the synth set-up though where it does fine.
Yes, for serious mixing you'll need somethign like a proper deal but then again this isn't what the whole Ask Slashdot question was about.
To answer your question as I believe this is why I would be requesting Mixer suggestions were I in the original poster's situation, is that typically I'd only want to listen to 1 thing at a time, say the CD-Player for instance, but my computers are all set up to give me audio feed-back, say when there is an alarm or error message, or maybe I want to mix Quake ][ (assuming the impossible situation that I would ever be interested in playing a game like that :), but wanted my own CD audio track? Thus I would want the Sound Effects from the game mixed with my CD and the frequent system errors from my NT box, my talking Web browser under BeOS and for my linux box -- um, well I guess I can forget about the Linux box for now, but you get the picture.
Anyway hope that makes things more clear. Take care.
Be Seeing You,
Jeffrey.
Time Lord, Dark Horse: The Techno Mage of Gallifrey
"I want to use software that doesn't suck." - ESR
"All software that isn't free sucks." - RMS
really if you are looking for stereo stuff you're not going to find much under $200. If you don't mind splitting your stereo channels into two mono channels check out the Spirit Folio mixer which has four mono channels and two stereo for aroudn $250 MSRP. I have a home studio with samplers, synths etc. hooked up to my 'puter and I use a Mackie MS1202-VLZ 12 channel mixer. For $399 this is the best deal you will ever find. It's the most useful piece of audio equipment I have ever purchased. Very flexible. It has four mono channels and four stereo channels. Love it!
Stereo inputs and multi stereo outs....
A Numark DM1200 should do the job....$199.95 at www.pssl.com
Read the stats and choose for yerself...
The 1202 (I have the VLZ) is easily the best $350 (I bought it new) I ever spent on any piece of electronics. It's a total swiss army knife of the audio world. Portable, powerful, 1001 uses. If you can afford one, get one. You'll have it forever, and you'll never run out of uses for it.
I even spilled a full glass of water into mine while it was on. Let it dry out for a couple days and still works like a champ. The fact that I can watch tv, play guitar and hear my computer's output at the same time through my headphones makes it an invaluable tool. Not to meantion all the other stuff I use it for.
-Rich
- Midiman Micro Mixer ($99-299) 6 to 18ch.
- Spirit PowerPad ($399)
- Rolls RM65 MixMax ($320)
Even though the Spirit PowerPad is $400 list, it includes a 30 watt power amplifier, so you can hook your speakers right into that. Another place to check out is Used Gear By Mail, they ship anyhwere, and have some really good used gear VERY cheap. Hopefully this gave some more answers. If there's still not something out there perfectly suited to this application, I'm sure there are people here that can design a small 6-12ch line mixer in their sleep.If it comes from man, it will fail.
If it comes from god, It will succeed.
Detachment 3 Media
Exposed, Exploited, Exploded
Well, there's a store in my area which sells a lot of tech-junk (from old stereo equipment to cameras to used PCs)... you might want to check for similar places in your area. I've seen 6 channel mixing boards in pawn shops for as little as US$75... that would probably suit your needs. Or, if you didn't need to listen to all of your boxen at once, you could hook each box to a different line in on an old stereo tuner; say Linux to Aux 1, PC to AUx 2, Mac to Casette.. you get the idea. This wouldn't give you line-mixing capabilities, but it would at least give a convenient option for selecting which box you're listening to... not to mention the fact that you could control all of the outputs with a single remote.
Probably your cheapest way out would be to find a
single space rackmount stereo line mixer. I bet Fuhrman or Sampson have them, they are generally for keyboardists.
If you daisy chained all your cards into each other as suggested your noise level would be insane as the gain staging with most of the soundcards out today is horrible.
A great source for used pro-sound equipment is Daddy's Junky Music Store a.k.a. Used Gear By Mail, their service is outstanding and they will make sure that you are satisfied with any purchase. I think the URL is http://www.ugbm.com
i must have built half my studio from stuff i bought off of www.auctionsoup.com
/sell old gear. cheap.
there must be thousands of old mixers sitting in peoples closets gathering dust. every now and then they get sold online. this is the best place i've found to buy
also check out the used gear price list to find out if your getting a good price.
mischa
the product you are lloking for is called layla.
A uk company makes them I think. 8 stereo in/outs
plus a pair of spdif connectors.
All the connectors are in a 1U rackmounted box
with a cable back to sound card.
-- Colin Whittaker
What I'd like to find is a sound card with 4+ line-level inputs. Then just use it as the mixer (with software).
It would help me build a complete audio system with my linux box as the control center.
Does anyone know of such a thing???
Even though Vestax had at one time a bad motto "rhymes with bestax" (which was pointless) they do make some really nice dj equipment. Their tables are good as well, at least the direct drive ones are.
then again, you can only go wrong with Radioshack and gemini (at least for turntables +/- 2% is lousy)
Lowmag.net
Simple. The original poster seemed to want to be able to hear several different sources simultaneously through the same speakers. That's precisely what I want to do, too. For instance, I'd like to be able to run my VCR's sound output, output for my PC and my Mac, all through the same speakers OR to a set of headphones. Ideally, I could control both master volume and volume for all the input channels. An input switcher is not sufficient for my purposes. I _think_ the original poster is looking for the same thing, but I could be wrong.
I'm fascinated by the idea of building my own (I just got my first soldering iron...LOOK OUT!). Does anybody have any tasty links or book recommendations that would give me some idea as to how to build such a thing with minimal cross-talk and no damage to the speakers?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
YAMU (Yet Another Mackie User) here. I'll add my support for this mixer. It's bloody brilliant. Not only is it nearly infinitely reconfigurable, but the sound of the thing is great.
Somewhat off topic, but thanks to this thread and a few others, the question I have is, "how many of us slashdotters do home recording and what kinda music? what kinda gear?"
I mostly do guitar oriented stuff, but I play (poorly) various instruments. Currently I'm digging into the whole MIDI mess and making cakewalk and my Alesis QS8 play nice and do crazy things.
Sorry, no MP3's yet, but I'm planning on getting a few up on the web in a few weeks when the current project is "done".
jetpack
The obvious question (maybe I should have added this to my previous post): Do you have any of your tunes anywhere I can get at them and have a listen?
I use cakewalk as my sequencer, and largely for the same reasons you use a sequencer: my drumming and keyboarding are of dubious quality and s/w editing fixes that problem.
As for programming, I pretty much leave it at work. On the other hand, I'm starting to seriously consider writing a class lib for reading and writing MIDI files. Dunno if that is a usefull thing, but mostly it'll force me to learn alot more about the nitty-gritty of MIDI.
BTW, what sorta s/w are you writing these days?
jetpack
What you say is only true if you are using your soundcard to make all the noise. However, I'm driving a synth/keyboard (QS8) and therefore any sequencer I use needs to have MIDI support. Seems to me that at least one of the trackers (fastracker?) incorperated MIDI, but it's been years since I've played with trackers.
:)
As for flexibility, I'd say that is only try if you are limiting yourself to general midi. If you've got a dedicated synth to drive you can make all the crazy sounds you want. Of course, it's rather more expensive than just using your soundcard
Man, are we *ever* off topic! Woohoo!
jetpack
I wasn't able to read the replies, so I don't know if I'm being redundant.
I purchased a little 3 channel mixer from Radio Shack for like $40 or so. They call it a video mixer or something, because its also got a video input/output with a video signal booster I use for my playstation. Anyway, its got 2 stereo (dual) RCA jacks, and a 1/8" mic jack that you can use without using the video stuff, and its fairly small. I'm really interested in finding anything better, if I can ever read the other posts...
What I did with mine is I run my tv card sound, linux box sound, and Playstation sound into the little RadioShack 'Video dubber' thats really a $40 or $50 mixer, and run the output of that into the line in on my sblive - then I can process all the audio coming in with the sblive.
Its actually pretty damned sweet.. I can listen to cds on the linux box, and still hear if I get mail on my other machine, etc. I keep all my machines on 24/7 so I don't have to worry about my sblive being powered down..
Just get a Mackie
o .asp
The 1202 VLZ is quite cool:
check it out there:
http://www.mackie.com/Products/VLZPRO/1202VLZPr
It may be a bit higher than 200$ (300 to 350$ in fact)
but if you have good quality speakers you won't want
to waste them with a crappy mixer...
Besides, if you are into music making the Mackie has real
good mic preamps and some wicked wiring options that can
be really useful.
If you don't want to blow your budget, take a look at Soundcraft
too, they make quite good budget mixers.
Check out this page for some DIY mixer projects, if you want to go that route.
Enjoy your job, make lots of money, work within the law. Choose any two.
If the signal you're dealing with is preamp-level (i.e. the line output to a set of powered speakers), then all you need to do is buy "Y" cords to connect all the outputs to the single input. With any luck, the levels will all be close enough that you can adjust them using the software volume controls on each system.
Personally, I just patched 'em all into my stereo receiver, and I switch inputs as needed (Basically, I have 2 PC patched into the two tape I/O loops, and use them as if they were cassette decks; then another PC just goes to a spare input). Of course, I only get to hear The Microsoft Sound from one PC at a time, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
I've found that you can get great deals for used mixers on eBay. I'm certain you can find what you're looking for for well under $200 if you're patient.
With all the kudos for Mackie, where is the URL? I want to see one of these babies if I can. Thanks!
Radio Shack stuff is horribly noisy.
Midiman's Multi-mixer 6 ($100) will do what you want but you'll have to split your 3 stereo inputs into 6 monos and then pan hard left/right, etc. They have a 10 channel with two stereo inputs for $120.
www.midiman.com
I seem to remember a tiny little mixer that just used trim pots for gain controls, but I can't remember who made it.
I do computer-based recording with Cakewalk Pro Audio and Alesis QSR. I sequence drums and keyboards and do live bass, guitar, and vocals. Haven't been too active lately, though.
I'm waiting for driver support and a "killer app" for BeOS to come out so I can move out of the land of blue screens...
---- Politics: Kissing ass and pointing blames.
Count me among the 1202-VLZ owners. Perfect for the amateur recording/mixing I do. I hook up my two computers, MiniDisc deck, CD player, Bass amp, and a few mikes, all at the same time. Mackie kicks.
---- Politics: Kissing ass and pointing blames.
Mackie's are the sweetest mixer you can buy for the price. Mutha's are built like brick houses to (except they don't use bricks). I ues them for my hard drive recording studio!
I highly recommend!
I always used to use a Shure Mic/Line mixer, but they are true pro audio gear, read not cheap. You COULD always roll your own, it's not that hard. Use a quad op amp, set it up unity gain, inverting (To isolate the input), tie the outputs together, feed to one more stage, inverting, and you get line level out
Charlie
(Radio shack has their "Op Amp Cookbook" for this)
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
there's a man named Craig Anderton who publishes a book that is more or less exactly what you're looking for. it's called "Electronics Project for Musicians" and you can probably get it from Amazon or i know you can get it from Paia.
speaking of Paia, i believe that they sell a mixer kit for like $30 or something.
Electronic Projects for Musicians by Craig Anderton
also, just check out Paia for all your musical needs, because they really have the best kits out there and you can always build cheaper and better than you can buy.
For mixing and audio editing at the computer, I have a Behringer MX802A Eurodesk that I bought from musician's friend for about $200. The quality of its components are comparable to Mackie's, but the Mackie equivalent is closer to $500.
Good idea... I hadn't thought of that. Personally I am using a crappy hundred buck radio shack mixer to accomplish the same goal and it has seemed to be fine for me.
Tell a man that there are 400 Billion stars and he'll believe you
Well, if you wanted to do it cheap, just use a bunch of 'Y' cables. You shouldn't get that much of an impedance mismatch with Y's, as long as you are careful with the output controls from each computer. Or you could go to a local music store (Doesn't every city have a Guitar Center?) and see what cheap mixers they have. Hmm you could even use an old stereo amp if it has enough inputs. If you wanted decent audio (an old stereo *might* be decent) get a Mackie mixer they're cheap (~$200) and good for the price, don't waste your money on R$ stuff.
MX602a ~$100
MX802a ~$210
at
Musician's Friend.
(Just bought an MX802A myself.)
-- There is no truth. There is only Perception. To Percieve is to Exist.
In your car you can connect only one of the wires from the stereo to your speaker and ground the other wire to the car. Your car is alway negative so the juice can't go the other way. It doesn't alternate back and forth, just current up and down. High current pushes the cone away from the magnet. Alternating this is what makes the speaker cone go in and out.
I dj regulary and I like my radio shack mixer. It is reliable and when it breaks I can just go out and get a new one..3 years of heavy use and nothing has broken yet (already gone through 2 amps and a speaker). My cheap solution is to go to radio shack and get the 4 line selecter. It allows you to push a button to select the source. I use one for my home sound system. Its nice cause it's only $15.
have been Macs running editing software and using very high end sound cards...
just my (mostly worhtless) 2 cents
Dan "ayeeeeeeeee" Turk
Well, way-back-in-the-day I played baritone sax, tenor, sax, and alto sax, along with drums in band...this was 6-8th grades(8-6 years ago). I then rediscovered my musical ways in 11th grade when I took a class in my high school's multi-million dollar audio/video lab. (this isn't your common high school: http://www.cat.pinellas.k12.fl.us) I learned that I can mix stuff pretty well, I made about 5 quality mixes and did sound effects on several films...some of the mixes won awards and my friends actually requested them for personal use, they actually wanted a SCHOOL PROJECT to listen to outside of school...it was strange! As to what I mixed...I made a Prodigy Mix, a Kraftwerk Mix, a pop/hip-hop/rap megamix, and a 30 minute "whatever fits next" mix that consisted of everything I could get my hands on. I love audio, can't wait till I get money to buy a mac for some mad mixing fun. Macs are the only way to go for that kinda thing, by the way...
:)
Well, you asked, and you got at least one answer
I hope others reply, it's an interesting thing.
Dan
Best buy has a 5-channel for right around $100. They have a 2-channel for less. Much better than Radio Shack's awful cheap 4-channel, although it's not a Mackie or anything. Has kept this casual user very happy. Look over by the microphones/kareoke machines.
is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
This little guy if perfect for putting on your desk with your computer.
It has 1/4" inputs and Radio Shack has all the adapters you need. $99 is worth it.
-AJ
Given that the output impedence of each of the sources is (nominally) equal to the input impedence of the speakers and that you want equal contributions from each of the sources and don't NEED a master attenuator (or want unnecessary attenuation) either, that reduces to:
Tie the grounds together. Wire up a set of five equal resistors, one from the right-channel hot of each of the sources and one from the right-channel hot of the sink. Tie the other end of the five resistors together. Repeat for the left channel.
Each source and the sink provide a characteristic impeedence "C", and want to see it as well. With resistors of value "R" the impedence they see is:
R + (R+C)/4
Setting that equal to C and solving for R we get:
R = (3/5)*C
For 8 ohms nominal impedence R comes out to 4.8 ohms.
So go out and buy ten 5% resistors as close to 4.8 ohms as you can find. Half-watt should do. So should quarter-watt if you can't find half-watt.
This should still work reasonably well even if some of the output signals are really at a higher impedence and intended for headphones. If some of your sources end up driving your speakers wildly less than others, that may be what happened. In this unlikely instance there are tweaks to compensate, but they'll depend on the actual config you've got and will require a little debugging.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Y-Jacks are a good cheap solution.
You see, this is because electricity works like water.
The signal from two sources will flow into one source. The signal from that one source, if combined with another will flow into another clean, refreshing source.
The strength to using a Y-Jack to combine signal, instead of split signal is....like water, when you combine signal, you have more. When you split signal, you have less.
More is good.
get four cables with male/male 1/4 inch connectors.
plug the mac/pc into one y-jack.
plug the linux/nt into another y-jack.
then plug each of those into another y-jack.
then, get another female/female 1/4 inch connector/cable.
plug the y-jack that has two y-jacks connected to the pc/linux/nt/mac into it.
plug the 1/4 cable from the powered speakers into the other end.
ditch the cd as most computer's already have them.
You've got yourself a cheap-professional system now.
It's also expandable.
You could always add other y-jacks to the already connected y-jacks to have more and more connections made available.
I'm not sure, but by my calculations, you could probably have several million audio appliances plugged-in before you notice any degradation of quality.
Could you put some diodes on the source wires to make sure the signal only goes one way, or would that reduce the sound quality?
You should take a good look at dj mixers:
They offer reference quality sound, compact size, and are usually fairly cheap ($75-250 ballpark).
try www.musiciansfriend.com
I use a Gemini PMX-3501. It has 4 stereo channels, some of which can be reassigned to other imputs on the fly. I think its about 75-80 dB S/N, which isnt near that of my PCI soundcards, but you wont hear static either. Works well, my only complaint is it doesn't do quad channel sound, like SB Live! or Diamond's MX 300.
a sp?ProdID=39
I D=15
Cost is less than $250 new, Rack mountable too. It has 3 separately adjustable output pairs, so you can hook up 4 or more speakers if you like...instead of 2. You can also preview one source while driving another, like I output the channel hooked to my playstaion to the speakers while i listen to my MP3's on the headphone out.
Mine is hooked up to 3 car amps to 5 speakers.
http://www.geminidj.com/docs/product_display_5.
Many of the other mixers will also fit what you need, posibly better and less expensive.
http://www.geminidj.com/docs/gemini_cat.asp?Cat
If you need higher S/N rations, get another brand, Gemini's are the most affordable though, and comes with a decent guarantee.
Thank god! Finally, a fellow geek with a small bit of common sense. I was getting ready to say the same damn thing...from I got from the article he's doing for convenience, not to record the stones' next album. An input selector from the Shack or any other electronics store will do fine...
I will hand it to you guys, though...I haven't seen one person suggest that this guy go out and construct a mixer based on linux...
"Nobody owns the fucking words man." - James Dean
PSSL has more mixers than you can shake a stick at:
http://www.pssl.com/
Their dead tree catalog is easier to read than their web site. I'd recommend getting them to send you a copy if you're not in a mad hurry to get a mixer.
Some mixers have multiple outputs, so you could send one set to your stereo and another back into your computer for feedback loops or easy sampling from external sources.
If you've got a rack you might want to consider a rackmount mixer just because it would look cool.
PSSL has more mixers than you can shake a stick at: http://www.pssl.com/ Their dead tree catalog is easier to read than their web site. I'd recommend getting them to send you a copy if you're not in a mad hurry to get a mixer. Some mixers have multiple outputs, so you could send one set to your stereo and another back into your computer for feedback loops or easy sampling from external sources. If you've got a rack you might want to consider a rackmount mixer just because it would look cool.
I run the exact same configuration. I simply run audio cables from each system's line out into the next system's line in. THey are all wired in series. Each has it's own mixer controls in their respective OS's, and my primary workstation is the final output for the whole chain (like a master control for everyone). I can listen to X11Amp on my Linux workstation, get my ICQ and Outlook email on the Micro$oft workstation, etc..
I think that if you look through last months Electronics Now or Popular Electronics magazine they have the plans for a 2 channel mixer, It should be no problem to modify it to take 4 channels... Whole thing should cost like 40 bucks
actually the best way I've found, is if you have a raack stereo system.. basically a home system with multiple inputs. of course, you can go further and add other neato gadgets. I've found that mixing the typical home entertainment system with the computer does a decent job. as for a specific mixer.. well.. I dunno. just need 4 stereo inputs to one master output, shouldn't be hard to find. Fook
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
Go to a local music store and try to find a mackie or samson mixer used. Most of the small ones sell for under $200. The mackie is nicer, the samson is a little noisy check it out first but it will be cheaper. Also there are a few companies that may offer do it yourself kits for making your own mixer. I think PAIA is one of them.
Bah
I do all sorts of sequencing stuff...I'd suggest taking a look at some of the various trackers (MOD/S3M/IT/XM/etc)...they're a lot more flexible than MIDI is. Of course, an Amiga is the best place to do this type of stuff, but some of the PC-based trackers have gotten quite good as well. I've done some MIDI work, but I find it to be too limiting...
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
You won't get decent under $200. You'll be really unhappy with any mixer you buy at Rat Shock.
You will get a Mackie 1202 ("classic", not "VLZ" or "VLZ Pro") on eBay for around $200.
You can have my 1202 when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. They solve one million problems. I'm using one right now to run 3 sound cards, 3 synths, 3 effects boxen (side chained), 4 cdrom drive audio outputs, and a phone!
I think MIDIMAN makes tiny analogue mixers... but I'd still suggest the Mackie. A Mackie will last you for the rest of your life in both maintainability (bulit like a tank) and usefulness.
Good luck!
You might want to look at Daddy's Junky Music. They sell used equipment, typically have lots of good stuff, too - and are well known. They have a store here where I live, and can pull in stuff from all over the country from their other stores. If your town doesn't have a store, you can also do the mail-order thing through the link on their page, or Used Gear by Mail.
Configuration:
Midiman has a web site but I haven't checked it out yet.
Hope this helps,
Jeff
Since more and more musicians are doing recording at home these days, high-quality compact mixers have become more affordable. Mackie, Yamaha, and Behringer(sp?) are all making good, small mixers that beat the pants off anything you'll find at Radio Shack (just my opinion, there).
:) ). If you have a Mars in your neighborhood, they have a good recording equipment department.
12-channel (and smaller) mixers are not that expensive -- should be only a few hundred bucks. The footprint of them is relatively small and some can be mounted in a 19" rack. There are also rack-mountable line mixers which are basically a bunch of inputs with volume controls -- these are small and pretty cheap.
Most of these use standard 1/4" unbalanced analog inputs but have a few additional RCA jacks for CD and tape input. You can buy RCA-to-1/4" converters at Radio Shack that work just fine.
Guitar Center sells tons of these (though I try to avoid GC due to an ugly customer service incident last year
Personal recommendation? I've been using a Mackie 12-channel (1202, I think) for several years now. I had to have the pots cleaned once but, other than that, it's been great. It's built like a tank.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
http://www.mackie.com
Heh, didn't even need google to find it.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Instrumental -- mostly guitar. I usually layer and sequence any keyboard stuff to make it sound less pathetic. Same for drums.
I pretty much record whatever I'm in the mood for, so I've got soft nylon-string pieces and aggressive slash-and-burn stuff on my hard drive and DATs. I pretty much give away CDs to anyone who's interested -- I'm happy just to have someone say, "I like it."
No recording lately, though. I miss it, but writing software has been taking up ALL of my time.
Agreed, this might be a good thread or slashdot poll in the future.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
I just run all my stuff into my stereo system's tuner (you know, the thing that does radio reception). Most of the good ones will have RCA jacks on the back to plug in stereo components, and you can get 1/4" to RCA converters at radio shack. I have my TV, CD player, tape deck, radio, turntable, and computer all going through the same set of speakers. It's some Sony thing, around $400, not sure of the model number.
Now a question - why is it that everybody's been recommending mixers? What's the advantage of a mixer over a setup like mine (a component-based stereo system with some AUX inputs for the computer).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I don't think you need a mixer unless you want
to *combine* one or more sources. Just get
an input selector... Or build one with $15
in parts from radio shack.
If you want to be super geeky, you can get
a patch bay for $80 or so.
Call Full Compass (800 356 5844) and explain
what you want. They have the best prices and
knowledgeable sales people.
-Loopy
An audio mixer is one of the simplest circuits you can build.
With a bunch of RCA or 1/8 audio jacks, a blank copper clad perfboard, and a few resistors you could do this. Add a pot, or even a small audio op-amp for level control. Could be built for less than $20. Make it $40, and you could put it in a small case.
Don't go to Radio Shack for parts, they're insanely expensive.
Dont geeks do electronics these days????
Dont splice the wires together because you'll blow up the soundcards.. just use resistors:
pc1 --------/\/\/\/---\
pc2 --------/\/\/\/---*----/\/\/\---- out to spkr
pc3 --------\/\/\/\---/
This scheme should work for as many pcs as you like - the resistors should all be 100 - 1000 ohms. You'll need 2 of these (left and right channels). At a pinch you could use one of those screw-connector blocks to connect the wires to the resistors and wrap the lot in insulation tape to protect it - no soldering burns!!
B^)
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!