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Corel Linux Preview
While it's been known that for the last few months Corel has been hacking on Debian GNU/Linux to create a distro of their own, they have finally begun demoing it at LinuxWorld. Our friends at LWN were given an early demonstration, and have posted review of it to accompany their coverage of the event. The juicy stuff is that the install is very simple, and a beta should be out before the end of next month. Corel also seems to have updated their Linux site. Thanks to Mindjiver, we now have a link to screenshots.
A Linux distribution that shoves ADVERTISEMENTS in my face while I try to use it?
I don't think so.
What's Corel trying to do, win the prize for lamest linux distribution?
I'm going to go vomit in my trashcan now.
I want to see th epretty pictures of all this stuff where the screamshots???? after all a picture is worth 1000 words..
Only 'flamers' flame!
Since Debian uses uhhhh, Deb's for packaging, will Corel Linux be stuck with doing just Deb's, or will it be able to handle both Deb's and RPM's by default?
If you're going to TROLL, please, be subtle!
Most management types associate higher price with higher quality, and they are so used to paying inflated prices for MS crap, that as long as Corel is not higher than MS products, they'll bite. If prices are too low though, then they'll figure it is cheap (and thus crap) and won't touch it.
If Corel is trying to get this distro into the corporate workplace, then they have to charge a "reasonably high" price or the pinheads won't touch it. I think someone already posted the irony that the Corel distro isn't targetted to /.ers, yet many are drooling over it.
On the upside, since it is open source, we all reap the benefits while the pinheads pay the price.
You can get the "upgrade" version of Corel's suite here for around $100CDN [$65US] It wouldn't surprise me if the price of the suite and the distribution is the same or lower. Hell if it is and I can just install the suite I'd buy it and throw out the rest.
I'm sure Corel has a legal dept look into copyright issues. I know they were concerned about the naming of the "trash can" on the desktop... apparently Apple has a trademark on some words there!
It's all part of Corel's new open icon initiative. It you can see it, and they can copy it, it's theirs.
Actually this is quite a suprise coming from a company that was founded on providing graphic tools.
Although, setting the first ethernet device to default to DHCP sounds like a good convention.
I can think of quiet a few situations where that might not be the best idea. Granted they are all server type configs where its unlikely someone is going to be installing corel. It is a good idea, and could make things easier for newbies, but I prefer an install that lets me get as much stuff done at once, as in customizing the system for how I want it and the like, I don't want to have to wait through and install and then undo alot of the stuff it does, its a waste of my time.
What about the whole "information wants to be free" mantra? What about the whole "it's unethical and immortal to not share" concept?
While I certainly respect RMS, if he truly feels this way then he's talking out of both sides of the mouth. Either information is completely free, in which case you should have to publish modications regardless of whether you release binaries, or it isn't, in which case he can stop trying to foist the GPL on every software project from here to Mars.
Windows based setups do have most of the cost in support, aside from buying Windows itself. In any company that relies on Windows, they practically need a whole MIS department to keep the systems running. In the UNIX world, companies just use one guy or an outside consulting firm, and rarely ever have problems.
Another advantage of UNIX that isn't exploited enough is terminal support. With terminals (text or X), you just setup one big computer. Then, you only have to support/maintain one machine! This is where MS never seems to work.
Do you guys know which Debian dist its based on? More importantly if they are glibc2.1 or
:(:( Even more unfortunately none of the unstable branch is compatible..
.dsc files from unstable and then make your own package and install that, but didn't have much luck w/ wmaker. Of course the simplest thing is configure;make;make install but then you lose your dependencies .. It would be even cooler if something like apt-get did the compiling package making for you :)
glibc2.0?
It would be *very* cool if they keep in tandem with the stable branch of Debian as it would allow us to grab corel packages instead of waiting 4 thousand years for debian stabilize.. Debian has got to be the coollest easiest to maintain system around (apt-get cron jobs are simple enough for automatic maintenance). The *only* thing i don't like about debian (and I know other people who are thinking about switching to back to rhat) is it seems that it is impossible to get new packages for it.. i.e. simple ones -non-system ones. Like for instance wmaker is on version 0.20 or something..
I think the trick is to grab the source and
Anyone know what the rule of thumb is? i.e. does anything like this exist?
Uhm, did Corel forget that Linux is basically a UNIX operating system that runs on PCs? Uhm, i.e., telnetd, ftpds, etc! Hello?
I can't wait, millions of clueless users with default installs and insecure services. Not to mention users who don't bother to upgrade their software when an exploit comes out.
I have installed it nearly a dozen times on all sorts of hardware and have never had any problem. After using fdisk twice, it was not a bother. You don't have to name the cyls, you can specify partition sizes in megabytes and and fdisk suggests the correct starting cyls for you.
It really isn't that bad.
-awc
It'd probably be as bad as the "final" versions of software are.
But why would they do that? Since all of their code (except the proprietary office apps) are going to be released, then anyone with a bit of time on their hands can download it for free...ie. they probably don't plan on making much money off of selling their Linux distribution. What they need is lots of people to sell WordPerfect to.
If I was Corel, I would want every Linux user running WordPerfect Office, so it would be advantageous to make it run great on any distribution. Linux is probably going to expand into the desktop market, so Corel wants to get entrenched early and their distribution is probably intended to help expand the market.
But it would be idiotic to snub other editions of Linux.
I would be curious to know how it deals with the root account. I know that when I first used linux, I did everything as root. And, after being the Windows user (super or not), it might be surprising to joe public to learn that he doesn't have permission to access things on his own computer.
-awc
Well, The whole thing looks like Win98 with the "integrated" Internet Explorer. *puke*
Count on me to stick with something other than Corel if they're going to turn this thing into a Windows clone (which it definitely looks like what they're striving for).
I have no problem with user-friendliness, but come on... integrating the desktop with a browser simply is *not* intuitive. It is also very inefficient when it comes to space matters.
That's an illusion. The differences between package formats are mostly trivial nowadays - a correct translation between rpm's and deb's is possible and afaik alien does that. The big problems are not because of package formats, but because of different policies between distributions. Those things cannot be automatically translated between distributions, and a common package format will not fix that.
odd. must have been an old fdisk...
Why exactly are debs better than rpms? I've heard many people say things to the effect of "debs are technically superior to rpms" but i've never once seen a person who could tell me why.
-matt
Corel is looking for a quick fix to some major problems in the company.
They acquired alot of inferior products in an attempt to provide a low-cost alternative to Microsoft Office. Unfortunately, since most companies have standardized on MS Office, people want to use applications they know. They will either buy or pirate the software.
Their graphic programs have a loyal following, but the realization that there was a Windows market by Adobe and Macromedia has really interfered with most of their plans on that front.
This is why you see these weird offshoots such as the Java office stuff and the netwinder servers. They're a good company, but they have been positioned by circumstances and poor marketing efforts as a low-rent software company.
Maybe they'll do better this time, but I don't think you have anything to worry about.
What if the program requires libfoo, and libfoo requires libbar,and libbar requires libblech?
Sure you can follow the dependency graph yourself, but why do bookkeeping manually when you have a computer to do it for you?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
They look like netscapes and they don't look all that nice.
The package manager looks okay though.
I really hope so. WINE has been a looong time coming, but it would be sooo nice to be able to run those few Windows apps natively...
Time to go take a look at http://www.winehq.com
Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart.
I wish the review would have discussed how open the source is going to be for this distro. I have no problem with Corel having their own Linux distribution but my concern with these distributions is that the user is going to have no idea soon what is open source and what isn't.
It just seems to me that the more big business gets involved in Linux the less "free" it seems to be getting.
Wow. Can you say "copy Microsoft's UI bits?" It looks like Corel/KDE said "oh hey look, explorer.exe. Let's make the exact same thing (With ugly icons) on Linux!" Where the hell is originality and innovation? It's non-existent in the Linux world. Are we saying Microsoft has the best UI?
...I think that with KDE and the like out, begining user should have no problems with the usage of Linux.. the problem is the installation. I think that the makers of the distros should worry about 2 things: what packages they are including and how simple the install is. As for how easy it is to use, leave that to KDE and their brethren. Lets keep it simple.
Diji
"I came, I saw, I WTF'd!"
I really do hope that I'm wrong on that topic, but I have a pessimistic side to me. Almost everything that's good seems to be taken away as time passes, mostly our rights and freedoms. Linux seems to be that one last bastion of freedom from commercialism. Now with companies like RedHat getting larger and Corel jumping in, looks like that could change as well. When the big boys jump into the games, the fun is usually over.
The new file manager and Debian package manager should go into the KDE 2.0 release. It was stated that both are open source, so at least large potions of the code can be reused and the look "tweaked" to match the rest of the KDE 2.0 apps. This looks like a win/win situation for everyone, thanks Corel!
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I really do hope that I'm wrong on that topic, but I have a pessimistic side to me. Almost everything that's good seems to be taken away as time passes, mostly our rights and freedoms. Linux seems to be that one last bastion of freedom from commercialism. Now with companies like RedHat getting larger and Corel jumping in, looks like that could change as well.
When the big boys jump into the games, the fun is usually over.
In Debian new packages get put on the menus. And self-extracting, well, the user who doubleclicks the new package doesn't see any difference. And executable packages would be harder to view.
This is really great! It truly is! Debian being IMHO the best distro, it's now *easy* to install. Everybody's wondering how and when Linux will finally get to THE desktop of Mr/Mrs Everybody and his/her cousin, well now the solution's available.
Some grumpy hackers will always be against it, since it seems for them even X is too much. Hey, you guys want to see Linux everywhere? Let it be easy to use, nobody *forces* you to use one or another distro. If it has a Windoze look and feel, it's GOOD. It's the only way you'll get people buying into Linux. People don't want to learn a new GUI more than they want to chage their habits. Put them in from of the Corel distro, and they'll feel at ease immediately.
The presence of several distros makes Linux available in various forms as to satisfy a wide range of computer users, from the total beginner to the best hacker ever. It's just GOOD. That's why we like Linux, because we guys got the *choice*, a choice we didn't have before Linux (sorry for the Mac users).
I'm *very* happy and very confident upon the success of this distro, which should please a much, much wider range of people.
And for the licence, the article mentions Corel will release them to the Open Source community, so stop whining. And if the distro *costs* something, I'll clap my hands at them, because they'll be among the firsts to actually make a living out of Linux. And Corel makes also pretty good software, the kind that people actually want. No everybody's a hacker, not even at heart.
It's a great day for Linux.
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Using Microsoft software is like having unprotected sex.
Bite the hand.
I strongly suspect that the Corel File Manager (CFM) is direct and close decendant of KFM. I actually used it at LWCE and it acts just like KFM. Replace the silly icons with the normal KDE icons, slide that splitter over to the left, and you've got KFM. No, I don't think it's a brand new file manager.
If I can get rid of those LARGE button bar icons, I'd be very happy. But as it is now, it looks too much like *gasp* Explorer. But if they go the traditional KDE route and keep the system button bar icons as distinct xpm's, then I can change them (along with my theme), so that no one would ever mistake it for IE.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
The Corel netwinders shipped with an RPM based distribution. Does this latest Corel distribution require the RPM savvy user to learn yet another package management system?
As opposed to those millions of Win95 boxes still out there that are susceptible to winnuke, teardrop, or backoriface?
Wow, drag'n'drop pager, a (luser-friendly) graphical package tool, sysconf utility, and a pimped out KDE panel. Sound like it might be enough to lure me away from my current Gnome/Red Hat setup...
One hesitation... the install sounds a little *too* dumbed down for my tastes. If anything, I want one with *more* control over the process. Anyone know if Corel is providing an "advanced" install procedure as well?
The funny thing is that I also saw the following icons: MacOS folders everywhere Windows computers & network icons BeOS preferences icons Hmmmm. Someone was lazy and stupid.
The funny thing is that I also saw the following icons: MacOS folders everywhere Windows computers & network icons BeOS preferences icons Hmmmm. Someone was lazy and stupid over at Corel.
I'd guess they're probably use Debian's package management system.
I used to be a Debian user; now I use RH 6, because I want to keep track of what's happening in the Linux mainstream. I have to say that Debian just feels a lot nicer. And I really miss the Debian package management system. Yes, I know that RPM can be made to do everything that dpkg can, but that's like saying that two languages are just as good because they're both Turing equivalent.
Dpkg is, simply put, the best software installation system I've ever used. Not only the best, but far and away the best. It is powerful, but well designed enough to be intuitive for a first time user (I consider this a point in its favor). It very nicely divides the tasks into phases (selection, download, installation and configuration) making doing several simultaneous installations simple, efficient and manageable, especially over limited bandwidth connections.
I know a lot of die hard RPM fans will bristle at the suggestion that any other package management system could be better, and RPM certainly is very powerful; however you simply have to try dpkg for a while. IMHO it's much better organized.
I think dpkg is a major reason why Debian is a better platform for the Linux assault on the desktop market. Journalists keep asking whether Linux is ready for the desktop but real question is whether Windows is ready for the desktop. Talk to the average user and he's frustrated with Windows, with mysterious failures and crashes. Almost nobody feels that Windows is a pleasure to work with. I believe a lot of these problems come from incompatible DLL versions and, in some cases, subtle tansitive dependency problems that installers/uninstallers fail to recognize. It's unconscionable that Microsoft leaves something so basic and critical as installation management as an excercise for each developer.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
> If someone is doing development, I would really
> hope that he has enough savvy to get the distro
> installed without graphical hand-holding
Why? There are more Linux distributions out there than you can shake a stick at. Plenty of them cater for installations without graphical handholding. There's no reason that individual distributions should have to develop for everyone. If Corel want to target one specific segment of the user base then there's nothing wrong with that.
Macka
facetious - jokeing or jesting, often inappropriately.
why would this be bad, my mother would really like linux, she could have a really kool kde theme, and she wouldnt have to understand why her computer just randomely crashes, or why her registry is corrupted (what is a registry? and what does corrupted mean? she would ask) oh and why do system settings just randomly change? you got me but my mother would love it!!!
Why is Corel allowed to say, "We'll release the source to our changes to KDE and Debian later." Is there something in the GPL that lets you keep your changes secret until you feel like sharing them? (Other than that, i'm very excited about Corel's distro)
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
right on :-)
.slp format .. it's .tgz compatible .. check it out
you might also want to check out the
(Stampede Linux Package format) or perhaps,
Standard Linux Package format? (plug)
anyway
at stampede.org
webster says:
Main Entry: facetious
Pronunciation: f&-'sE-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French facetieux, from facetie jest, from Latin facetia
Date: 1599
1 : joking or jesting often inappropriately : WAGGISH
2 : meant to be humorous or funny : not serious
synonym see WITTY
- facetiously adverb
- facetiousness noun
----
I fail to see the humor in your posting, though.
Jilles
And don't confuse either of them with the Slashdot community, though again there are overlaps.
I attended their demo at LWCE, and they mentioned something that I didn't get to discuss with any Corel people
They said that they trimmed the debian packages down to what is essential and desirable. For example, you won't have a choice of jed/joe/vi/vim/emacs/xemacs, you get vi. The reasoning behind this was that new users won't know what these packages are anyway, and don't have the time to read through 1800 detailed package descriptions. The Corel/KDE menu represents all of the GUI applications installed.
This could be either a Good Thing, or a Bad Thing. This would be Good if I still have access to all those other packages. In that case, it would be no different than chooses "basic installation" with any other distro. But if there are no other packages, no second contrib CD, etc., then this is a Bad Thing.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
The .deb format is actually just an 'ar' archive with a special magic number. You can use 'ar -x' on a .deb to get control.tar.gz (the scripts used during installation and removal) and data.tar.gz (the program to be installed). As long as you have ar and GNU tar (or tar + gzip) you can use .debs. As one poster pointed out, however, the policies of the dist are what make packages incompatible. Different formats are easy to work around; rpm's are (usually?) just cpio files with a strange header. Widespread support for FHS/LSB/whatever will help more than a common package format.
Really, just as package manager programs, none of them really beats the other.
But, when you inspect the quality of the average RPM package (BTW, stay away from contrib!) vs the average deb file, Debian comes out far on top. This is not because of dpkg features, but because of Debian policy. Debian packages are built according to a set of guidelines, which give you more consistency in your system -- all configuration files have to be in /etc. Every package has to have copyright, documentation, changelogs and optional packager notes in /usr/doc; this is the first place I go whenever I install a new package, to look for a README.Debian file, which will detail any Debian-specific details about the package. The /usr/doc dir also frequently includes an examples directory, where you can find sample configuration files and such.
Debian packages generally do an excellent job of configuring themselves when installed. Many have a config script, which asks you questions to change the package configuration.
Also, Debian shows a great deal of attention towards making stuff work together. For example, all the different emacs packages are coordinated by a required meta-package, emacsen, which provides methods to install emacs extension packages for all of the installed emacs versions. This means, that if I have emacs 19, 20 and xemacs 21 all installed, and if I install an extension package like AUC TeX, it will detect which versions of emacs are installed, and automatically byte-compile itself for all of them. If I deinstall one of the emacsen, for example emacs 19, the extension packages will automatically deinstall themselves for that version, too.
Thus, a lot of what is superior about debs over RPMs is in the packages themselves.
---
It worries me a little bit how easy it is to flagrantly copy a gpl'd piece of software, make minor changes, and repackage it as your own (e.g., mandrake, corel, and friends).
Besides for the Package manager (which looks pretty cool, but non-essential) this looks like KDE with different icons.
I personally am not very fond of kde or turning debian into redhat( with an install that installs too much... i like the way debian does not assume i am a moron). What will all this mean to the real debian?
I work at a university in Southern Maine. Our win32 machines have endless problems with corel 8. Even with sp5 they often have bizarre errors or fail unexpectedly. Perhaps much of this can be blamed on MS' tactics of making their opponents software look bad on windows, but in my experience Corel's software is of a pretty poor calibre, I hope their linux distro is not the same.
Hello
Usually a search on freshmeat is the first thing I recommend a newbie in our LUG to do, if he/she is looking for a specific program or type of program. Many of them use it succesfully.
It's usually in the top 3 linked sites, along with Slashdot and LDP.
I too used freshmeat when I was new to Linux and Unix in general.
President of LILUG
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
I've used use 'unstable' since December. It has worked just fine all the time. And you get a nice surprise every day when you see what new packages and upgrades there have been since yesterday. Just beware when they change important stuff like perl and libc.
Do you mean cfdisk?
-awc
I 100% agree with this. It would be nice though if the format could remain compatable with tar. That way slackware style people could just untar it, while someone using redhat/debian/god only knows what else could install it through the package manager. Do tar files have enough room in the header for a "spec" file? My understanding was that they had quite a bit of room marked as "reserved".
-matt
Might it be time for a new installation manager? I mean, RPM and DPKG are really convenient in terms of putting the stuff on your HD and removing it, but then what? Apps written specifically for GNOME or KDE install themselves on the "Start menu" (I can't remember what they call it so I'll use the M$ name.) But others don't. So a newbie who downloads something from freshmeat won't know how to run it after installing it. Self-extracting executables that autodetect the GUI and make themselves a part of it would be oh so nice. But I'm just a whiner.
grep -ri 'should work'
Tis' a sad day for the linux community. Corel is hacking Debian and then going to resell it for roughly $500?!? That's insane...I could see them selling it *if* they made it all themselves. I wouldn't agree with it, but I could see them getting greedy and doing it. But charging $500 dollars for most likely _screwing_ up Debian?! I can only imagine the security implications as Corel most likely will make Debian less secure than it already is.
:)
I for one am glad I left the linux world; I was a Debian user...I'm now an OpenBSD user and couldn't love it more. Half of the _FUN_ is customizing it and going thru all those weird CLI installs
This truly scares me as this is just foreshadowing "Winux"........
So linux users, I used to love linux and I still think it's great but when it's the corporate answer and all GUI-fied, then it's time for me to leave which I have done.
Long live security, open source, and Unix =)
Do I need a zone sticker to park there?
If you want to build an office suite that just does the most common tasks, integrating the spreadsheet and word processor is pretty low on the list of priorities. OTOH, if you want to start a movement to dumb down WordPerfect, QuattroPro, Paradox, and Presentations, you'll probably need more protection than an asbestos suit. There are millions of businesses out there built around the advanced features of those products. The dumbed down office suite was tried by WordPerfect Corp. and by Microsoft (remember Works?), and it didn't fly. Bad idea. What people don't like is finding out they can't do something they need to do. That's reality in the office suite market. There's also the problem that what's an unusual task in one sector is a common task in another. For example, you may just need a graphics letterhead for simple correspondence, but the next guy may need to pump out legal briefs with styles, line numbering, and footnotes every day and not need the graphics. Writing custom business software for every industry isn't economically feasible, at least yet. pem@televar.com == http://n9vst.com/pem/wplinux.html
The ads show only while you run the update. And I'm sure there will be a way to turn it off. If not someone will um...modify it. :)
.
debs and rpms are fundamentally different. Debian bases all installed files on packages, while RH on files. If you install something from source RH knows that it is there, but Dpkg is not concerned until you make it a dpkg package (debhelper, equivs, etc) There are too many different ideas, philosophies and egos to reach an agreement. I seem to recall reading of another packaging system 'pkg' perhaps? that was pretty much a clone of rpm. I think that the people who release software are going to dictate the packages because the package developers will never reach an agreement. It is because of all these factors that linux has dozens of similiar software packages with basically the same functionality, rather than a single effort to produce something better. RPM is the current standard and with packages like Alien to do conversions an *.RPM == *.DEB, so what does it really matter what format it is anyway?
Why does Justin avoid telling the full story? It's Debian *and* KDE. Since KDE is *not* a part of Debian than I believe KDE must also be mentioned.
Why not just use vi? i do.
it is small and fast
and corel likes to crash.
I like vi.
First off, I never said I wouldn't have essential features. The features that I speak of are the crap that MS loves to talk about, like dancing paper clips, colored fonts, etc. If I were to make such a product I would do lots of market research. You don't need to meet the needs of that last 1% to oust Microsoft.
Secondly, I know plenty of business users that find MS Office* utterly lacking. Not because of the features that it claims are missing, but because those features dont work 40% of the time. Or they behave unreliably. Such as the ability to embed other documents into one another. Or the ability to do 'simple' things such as create mail merge documents. These things break all the time. I say more users are effected by crappy and poorly thought out software, than would be effected by a system without eye candy and a few less features. I speak of features more in terms of stability issues. Both in the user interface, and interworkability with other things. My company, if I were to start such a thing, would not try to play the marketing game with MS.
Thirdly, who said WordPerfect failed because of lack of features? I say, if you have a feature you make sure it works, and the interface makes sense.
FallLine@Work
1) Where did you get the $500 from?
2) Debian makes nearly none of they software they distribute.
3) Red Hat makes nearly none of the software they sell.
4) Caldera makes nearly none of the software they sell.
I'd bet, just from the screenshots, that Corel is making more software than the average.
Do you see a trend?
And now put down that cigarette!
Are you suggesting that KDE is not a desparate attempt to bottle windows for linux users?
moderator please give this one a "-1" and while you at it please give www.kde.org a "-1" as well.
Yea I had some really horrible experiences with potato a while back destroying my system. (I think it was a faulty dselect or dpkg. I really like the idea of having auto-upgrading new versions of applications that are pretty much 'beta' anyway but i'm a bit wary of potato still, as I'd like a vaguely usable system :). (Reinstalling loses its entertainment value after a while). It would be cool if they separated or froze out base/net/ etc for stabilization before the rest of it so we could be assured our machines wouldn't die and rather that a random application would be unusable for a day at worst..
:))
In anycase debian is still the coolest system and there is something to be said for paranoid stability checking.. (though I wonder if the 2.4 kernel is going to come out before they get a new version
-avi
I can imagine the irc conversations...
:) we can help now! :)
corel_user: anyone care to help me out?
user1: sure, what's up?
user2: yeah, what'cha need?
corel_user: when i press this button some weird stuff happens
user1: what button? what program?
corel_user: i don't know. Its the second item on my corel start menu.
user2: we need a little more info, man.
corel_user: i'd like to help, but iu'm playing tetris. it rocks.
user1: whats your problem man?
user2: yeah, you suck.
corel_user: c'mon guys, don't you know what's wrong? please help me? i can't do it for myself.
user1: i hate newbies.
user2: rtfm!
corel_user: my root password is smiley35. now can you help me?
user1: yup
user2: good bye corel_luser.
chances are if they use debs they also use the debian menu package/system. which works for both kde and gnome (as i understand)
Since there is some fear of various Linux distros going too mainstream, I propose a solution: the Grumpyware distro. It would be difficult to install and useless for mainstream users, and it wouldn't even support X. Every effort would be made to ensure that it won't accidently become popular among anyone but 3133t hackerz.
You know, the more I think about it, the more interesting that idea sounds. :)
I've got four words for you:
Stampede Linux Package format (.slp)
And it looks pretty appealing to me. The view can be broken into an arbitrary number of frames (a feature that I have been yearning for in file browsers for a while). Further, it is completely built around their object system (Open Parts, I believe), so the handler for any filetype can be run from within a browser frame. This is the sort of thing that OLE and COM promised, but never really delivered.
This filemanager (Konqueror), is the main reason that I am looking forward to KDE 2.0 .
--Lenny
I think there was a poll a while back that showed around 1/3 of /. readers were still Windows users. To me that means there are a lot of people afraid to take the plunge and install Linux. Also, /. readers always get excited about anything that is new, as long as it doesn't come from MS.
If so, I need to install this *tonight*.
--Lenny
I don't trust this. I knew it wouldn't be long before a large, already established software house would jump onto the Linux bandwagon with "their" distribution. Sure, it looks harmless enough to start with, that's the bait. Once people start adopting it and it becomes very popular, people will be hooked with it due to Corel Office or whatever killer app they decide everyone needs. All it takes then is a few changes with their distribution that will render their office suite installable ONLY on their distribution. Sure, experienced users would probably be able to get it working on a non-Corel distro, but for someone new to Linux they'd have to use whatever Corel tells them to. Of course, they may have good intentions, but I always trust my gut and assume that large corporations got that way through greedy underhandedness.
No more so than requring people to know how to do "%rpm -i foobar.rpm". It's the end user tool, not the format that's the problem.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Actually I like Debian's disk partition tool so much I keep a Debian "rescue floppy" around just to repair/build partition tables on machines, even if the machine is going to get Windows 95 installed on it.
Windows 95 fdisk can get awfully confused if a drive was set up in a machine with no/poor LBA support then moved into a machine with recent LBA support (or vice versa).
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
So, even though it may help Corel more at the moment (or when they release it), developers will be that much more inclined to support Linux by porting to it. This will help RedHat as well as all other distributions. Similarly, IT departments considering using Linux may see this as a sign of industry support and end up choosing RedHat, or any other distribution that they think will suit their needs.
No, you're just confusing 'gui' with 'easy to use' when the two aren't necessarily inclusive of each other.
Windows is a great example of an interface with eye candy and little underneath, an example that shouldn't really be chased after.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I remember doing something like that with IE 3.0. Didn't use it much, didn't fid much use for it. How did it fail to deliver (assuming that IE uses DCOM for this)
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
The failure of dumbed down office suites likely have more to do with legacy format issues than the complexity of what business users do. Thus, the relative failure of other more 'complicated' office suites relative to office.
It's not the features, it's the file formats.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Well since we're on icons...As someone who is running the pre-release of 1.1.2 at home (2.0 is still way too buggy for my tastes), the new icons are bootiful. Also, they will come in 48x48 pixel sizes and 32x32. A 32x32 40 color version will be available for download after the initial release. I don't fully understand the decision not to include them in the instal by default, but they aren't planning on doing it. KDE 1.1.2 will also come with kthememgr (which is a theme manager for kwm) so you can get window manager themes. The widget themes won't come until 2.0. There is also talk of themed icons for 2.0. All in all lots of fun stuff is on the drawing board.
-matt
If I were Corel, I might consider adding a file '/etc/cron.daily/apt' to the apt package with something along the lines of the following command: apt-get -q update && apt-get -fyq upgrade 2>&1 | mail -s "Package updates" root Of course there are certain other problems with this :), but as long as they don't release a broken libc or something it won't be disastrous..I hope.. Daniel
apt-get *does* do the compiling for you if you have a new enough version. (I'm using 0.3.11 here.)
/etc/apt/sources.list like:
For example:
apt-get -b source gimp
This will fetch the source for the gimp package and build it. You just have to make sure you have a line in
deb-src http://http.us.debian.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free
and you can build your own versions of Debian packages directly from source.
I think the distro appeals greatly to the /. 'crowd' more in terms of it's potential 'milestone' status than in terms of a distro /.'ers would actually use. The appearance of this distro is a noteworthy event in the de?evolution of Linux.
Duty Now for the Future.
**>>BELCH
OK I admit this is not how I hoped Linux would conquer windows. I am disturbed by the propietary shadows this distro casts, but I think it may still be a good step. ... not exactly ... WE DIDN'T SAY THAT!") DOS is supposed to be phased out in the very near future.
With Micro$oft's current plans (which can change quickly "It will be entirely NT kernel based...sort of
So let's fork the road right here, give people who need to upgrade a path to the future AND a bridge to the past. Put the finishing touches on DOSemu, freeDOS, WINE, for legacy data and apps, and give them a stable, elegant, easy to use platform for the future.
All the talk about ease of use is misleading, probably 75% of computer use in offices today centers around 2 or 3 main applications for most people. They don't spend all day "managing files" they are word processing or data entering, etc. If they can start thier programs, save thier data, and close thier programs without 4 reboots and 2 lost hours of typing they will be ecstatic! The interface to them is the quickest way to thier apps. Make windows irrelevent, if someone is going to be clueless about how to save files to a floppy on Windows they are going to be clueless on Linux. I say it's better they be clueless on Linux, where they can't delete autoexec.bat or config.sys. Where thier login only allows them rights to certain places and things that they need, even on thier own machine. I know part of this is possible with NT, but why bother? Linux is cheaper, more stable (or at least as stable, so put down that flame thrower Microsoftians)
Insert pithy comment here.
Yes, and ... ?
Due to the nature of Open Source, the "good" ideas submitted will flourish, the "bad" ones will die (good and bad are subjective). Since when has competition become a bad idea? (side note: guess who wrote Linux for Dummies? Hint: someone respected in the Linux community)
Times have so much changed. In the unix community of 1999, it is too common the case that users will ask in debian-user how to configure WordPerfect
Stress to new users the importance of reading the FAQ (or moderate posts to debian-user, if they're not already). Also, point them to news.corel.ca (also serves the purpose of keeping newbie questions off of the "real" Linux newsgroups).
and on slashdot users will ponder over stocks and profit models. Very little resembles the unix culture anymore.
So look for other sources of Linux news (lwn.net, linuxtoday.com)
and on slashdot users will ponder over stocks and profit models. Very little resembles the unix culture anymore.
The consensus seems to be that of "we all agree to disagree". How many other Linux/BSD users do youknow that feel 100% the same as you do?
Oh! and the term free-software is no more... ESR said it is "not appropriate" ?
Where has he said this? Even if he did, I'm sure the FSF will disagree with him (isn't this a point of contention between ESR & RMS? The term "Free Software" vs. "Open Source").
PS: I can't seem to include links in my post...anyone else having the same problem?
"seems as if all slashdot users are running server configured boxes"? Many slashdot users aren't even running Linux. Many slashdot users aren't programmers or hackers or geeks.
I seriously doubt Corel is going to try to sell their distribution for $500. Where did you get that figure? So far, they've only said that price will be announced at a later time.
Yet Another Corel Opinion
Did I read correctly that the file manager is Corel's own?
(enter meek suggestion mode)
Wouldn't it have been better to make changes to the K File Manager instead of making a brand-new file manager? Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see things getting _much_ easier than KFM. The screenshots just look like they applied more Windows terminology to KFM anyway ("My Computer" and "Network Neighborhood").
I found the ad for CorelDraw more funny than offensive. Is there a CorelDraw for Linux that I don't know about?
Not that I expect Corel to redesign their distro because of my little post -- I'm just seeking clues.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Ouch. Ignore the earlier post...
Daniel
I think the Netwinder has been abandoned by Corel... They sold it to another company as I recall.
Don't forget your punch cards and teletype grandpa! You'll need those if you're to get any work done.
...they subordinate some of the "linux-ness" of the OS.
No, they made sure to add extra core dumps. Trust me, you'll feel right at home.
Something that may help the whole community out, espicialy with all the new distros coming out based on redhat/debian/etc is a "generic" package format. Basicly this would be somesort of package, developed in the bazaar, that (ideally) all distros would be able to support along with their own. So if a company comes out with an application for linux, they don't have to screw around making rpms and deb's and ****'s. This should also have some sort of nice install shield style program that lets user choose how to install program, where, how full of an installation, etc. All the distro specific formats will still stay around for installing base software and updates (redhat won't have to ditch rpm anytime soon, but someone would certainly come out w/ another distro based on the generic package format).
./configure ; make; make config. Something easy enough that even the least computer literate person can download a source tarball, double click it to start the compiler interface, and get the thing compiled and installed.
Another nice program would be a very userfriendly, gui interface to
just my $0.02
Michael
Can I use their package manager or apt-get, switching back and forth, I wonder? Be really nice if it was possible just to put the top end trimmings corel offers (everthing in the article, basiclly) on top of a standard debian install... also, anyone know if it's compatible with potatoe? Wish I could be at the expo... only two hours away.. but have to work mid-week... sigh...
This sig left intentionally blank.
Its odd that this distro is getting so much attention from
I expect someone will correct me but this looks like the first desktop distribution of linux. A distribution for people who want a system that works and don't want to have to get involved in serious admin.
It seems as if all slashdot users are running server configured boxes - apache, ftp servers, sendmail, etc... I'm not sure that your average user either want or needs these facilities installed by default (if they want it then add in a package later).
So everyone here who feels that this distro doesn't offer enough control, or that it wouldn't be suitable for them please try and bear in mind that its isn't meant for you!
just thoughts
Tom
Makes no sense to show fancy screenshots of easy-to-use gui-tools for slashdotters. Atleast I wouldn't use those tools anyway. Though they sure look nice, a decent compiler and ed/vi are the only configuration tools you'll ever need.
I bought their Corel Office 7 for Windows (for $80 or so at student discount) and was quite pleased. I used WP8 for Linux (free edition) extensively and was again happy. I see their new release for Windows on shelves, but at the moment I boot Windows for MechWarrior 3 and nothing else.
I want Corel Office for Linux! If it's good, I'll be happy to pay hundreds of dollars for Corel Office for Linux. I know they're taking a risk by working on Winelib instead of maintaining separate Motif sources like WP8 used; does anyone know if problems here are holding them up any?
I don't care that Corel has Yet Another Distro. There are a hundred of them listed on LWN. All of the big ones now are easy to install, pop you into a *dm graphical login, then from there to KDE or GNOME. I don't see Corel improving much upon this, with or without new kwm icons.
I do care that Corel has a full-featured, easy to use office suite coming out. Applixware is showing a little age, StarOffice is a bloated monster; I want Corel Office!
Yes, this sounds like "gimme, gimme", but I'm willing to shell out cash for it...
It's nice that nothing is really being taken away, just added.
:-), they will have all the tools they need to start contributing.
:-)
This means that a new user (assuming that they've never used Linux distro's before) of the Corel distro will be able to start off at an easy level. This means email, web, mp3 and file manager. (IMHO)
But once they have been assimilated by us
It's been my experience that Windows users are crippled by the lack of any bundled programming tools, not even a compiler. I've recommended to younger relatives who want to start coding that they use the cygnus tools with windows, because I know that they want to play games and keep an easy(1) environment. Perhaps the Corel distro will be OK for them.
(1) an easy GUI environment is a very subjective thing, I know.
Would it be a good idea to put a site up that would help a newbie Corel distro user to "graduate" to a higher level? (state of consciousness
Anyway, the more Linux users the better. Some of those users could be coding the next Killer App Real Soon Now(tm).
----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
Welcome to Linux for Idiots. I understand that distributors are glad to peddle their stuff to the largest audience possible, but how important are WinLinux users to unix? It is my suspicion that the new users will soon be sending VBasic applications to sunsite. Or, even worse, present developers will fill sunsite with assist-an-idiot applications. Probably, we are well into that already.
Times have so much changed. In the unix community of 1999, it is too common the case that users will ask in debian-user how to configure WordPerfect, and on slashdot users will ponder over stocks and profit models. Very little resembles the unix culture anymore. Our community nothing but a collection of AOL chat-rooms, and we don't even know it. Oh! and the term free-software is no more... ESR said it is "not appropriate" ?
I hope the fact that Corel is Using WINE doesn't mean that The non-wordperfect apps in the Office Suite run in a FSCKed up emulation. Thatr is basically the reason why StarOffice is SOOOOO slow.
Anyway, never used WINE before...
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
What if other companies make their own Linux distributions?
Just a quick hypothetical:
Corel-Linux. Corel make Wordperfect Office to run best on their distro.
Lotus imitates. They make Domingo and Notes to run best on IBM-Linux.
Are we going to see MS get in on the action with Office 2003 that runs best on Microsoft-Linux 2002?
Food for thought...
...cool idea- one big problem. No obvious installer executable/script. No instructions, etc. Nice idea, very poorly executed. I shudder to think what people will think about it when they try to use those CDs- all those novices and suits that have never used Linux or WP8 for Linux before. What are they going to think when they try to use this fubared disk? I sincerely hope that they use a lot more planning and forethought when they ship their distribution.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Anyone have a site with the Beta version of this Corel distribution there? Maybe a previous version. pre-beta or something. I'm really curious to check this thing out. Thanks!
What's up with making linux so "Idiot" proof? I like linux because its complicated and you need to think to use it. Linux seperates the men from the boys. No more of this "hey mom, look; I can copy files with my mouse!" shit. Userfriendly is for wusses.
Sorta puts a dent in their IPO plans, no?
Brought to you by the wonderful KDE Artist Team.
:).
:)
Also, there should be some nice improvements in KDE 1.1.2 - to be released soon.
I am curious about the Corel icons, they are pretty tacky, but it isn't the final release so I suppose I can't be too critical (yet
Need a KDE icon for your KDE program?
Contact the KDE Artist Team! (shameless plug
geach
Keep your pants on, man, Corel Linux won't be done for a little while more. Maybe a few more weeks at the very least.
Well, IMHO, the problem was that they dumbed them down too far. IIRC, the MSWorks didn't do indexes, tables of contents, or footnotes. Now that's pretty basic features being left out. (I'm certain that at least one of those features was left out, as it's what caused me to tell my mother that she needed a better program. Don't recall which decade I'm talking about, however.)
I feel that the missing features problem was a marketing decision: They really wanted the user to upgrade from the entry program to the main program, so they made sure that they left out some features that even an entry level user would occasionally need. Don't know about the other entry level suites.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I know it is not a packaging format, but it looks quite promising to work with tgz files(I agree with the .tgz statement above-IMHO). Maybe the read abillity for other packages can be added to it? Joe jlrice@columbus.crosswinds.net http://www.gnu.org/software/stow/stow.html
Corel is the solution, atleast for businesses to Microsoft. Imagine the outcome if Corel bundles its Linux distro and WP9 for $200! Now compare that to $250-$270 for NT and $500 for Office2000. It will be very interesting to see what RedHat does to keep from getting the shit kicked out of it by Corel. By the way for anyone who is interested, in the august issue of MaximumPC there is a full page review of RH6. I think they gave it an 8 out of 10.
---Got Coffee?---
I noticed on Corel's web site that they're looking for WINE developers. I wonder if this will speed up that effort a significant amount.
It looks nice, but the fact that there is a "My Computer" icon really bugs me. It seems that they are desparate to make it look like Windows, so they subordinate some of the "linux-ness" of the OS. I don't know if it is necessary to do that to make people feel comfortable. Often, if things look the same and behave differently, it is more confusing to the end user.
Anyway, the "My computer" paradigm completely undermines, imo, the filesystem structure of Unix. It just doesn't fit that way. It strikes me that it will be more confusing when the user actually begins to move on to learn more about the OS.
-awc
Corel has a page about its distribution at: http://linux.corel.com/linuxp roducts_distribution.htm
But if there are no other packages, no second contrib CD, etc., then this is a Bad Thing.
/usr/local and kept a README about what and where everything went.
I expect that since it is based on Debian it wouldn't be that hard to ftp to one of the Debian mirrors and add/upgrade things.
Anyone who saw the Coral disribution think to ask if dpkg would work with it? If they messed around with the Debian package rules and where things are installed that could be a problem
I guess if it comes down to it though, there are always tarballs. I have never had any trouble with software that I installed on my Debian system from a tarball as long as I put it under
Every wrong attempt discarded is a step forward - T. Edison
and thats why I switched to Linux some time ago! The Win95/98/NT GUI simply sucks. Nothing is easy to use and everything is in the wrong place. I grew up using Ataris GEM and thought it was fine, then I checked out MacOS and liked it, too (maybe because Atari stole so much from it!) but when I first had to use Win95 at work and I didnt get the logic behind it. A Startmenu to shut it down, a MILLION ways to start a program (I prefer a command or a single icon), a document folder where all my documents disappear if I dont use them frequently, a "MyDocument" Folder to confuse me even more? I could continue for ages...it simple isnt userfriendly...and now they try to copy exactly this crap...I WONT use it...enough of that...Debian is good, but I dont see any use in the Corel Interface and this seems to be the major new feature (except for installtion and I thought Redhat was fine in this point!) Sorry, this is my first message to post here so please dont flame me too much or it will be my last one...;-) ((Lispy))
The article mentions something about Corel not knowing yet which license they will release their mods under. They pretty well have to release their mods to GPL'd source under the GPL. Which is a good thing IMHO.
-Tom
If the install is very simple, then we're going to have all kinds of idiots installing Linux. I wouldn't be surprised if my mom wants to install it. This is really going to be bad. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to Linux. The last thing we need is a buch of people who have no idea what they are doing, trying to put Linux on their computers. RTFM, I say! Do you understand what facetious means? Please look it up before agreeing with me or flaming me.
It looks to me like Corel may have bigger objectives than just merely making a new linux distro. I think, or atleast I hope, they want to make a complete replacement for the windows environment for the business user. If you look at their netwinder actions, products such as Word perfect for linux, and corel for linux, they're in the best position to do the following:
Create an entire cheaper and most cost effective replacement for Windows in the business environment. It would have to be:
a) Cheaper software costs.
b) Fewer hardware upgrade requirements. Since you dont have any frills, you don't need to upgrade your system every 2 years to run up to date software. Ideally the entire per desktop cost would be like 700 dollars. Use an E machine, or some other sort of non-Wintel system.
c) Actually easier to use than Windows. Don't worry about the frills and the eye candy. Just make a platform that gets the job done well. Support the most common feature set used by most business. Make an office suite that actually does what it claims, such as working intergration between the spreadsheet program and the word processor.
There are a great deal of hidden costs associated with the entire Windows environment. While it may appear to be easier to use, most users who have any substancial work to do with it find it very troublesome. I know many business people who easily spend 4 hours a week just trying to work around various bugs in MS products. This is the biggest MS cost.
d) More stable and easier to support. The organization providing the support would first target larger organizations, and sell strong support. Focus on network oriented systems for easier installation and upgrades. Create or atleast modify the OS, GUI, and Apps with that job in mind from day 1. Allow for visual configurations, but also have a real command line interface (like linux) which provides meaningfull debug messages, and can be worked around without any of the crap you see with Microsoft products. Like having to check multiple boxes which all do the exact same thing, but still require all to be checked off.
If done properly, such a system could be hugely successfull. The great part about it is that it would be hard for Microsoft to crush it, as the entire method of doing business is so alien to them. Even if Microsoft decided to make WindowsXX and OfficeXXX free, they still would have a very hard time making it go away. As the costs have less to do with direct software costs, than the associated things that come with buggy MS software. While I realize that most corporate lackies might be afraid to stray from the rest of the flock, there are still enough organizations out there which would be willing to take a 'risk', even though its most the safer path. Once you sink your teeth into the corporate market, I believe the savings and the success would speak for themselves.
The only problem i have with Corel is that they're no IBM. While I believe that they may have the resources to create all the software, they don't have the clout or the large organization to cover large regions rapidly. What they'd really need to do, is create the entire software package, then demo it and convince someone at IBM to go with them on the venture. A deal with such a titan would be an end game for Microsoft in the business arena. A few years down the road, and MS would be hurting very badly.
to something like System.