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First person convicted of U.S. Internet piracy
Anonymous Coward writes "A college student who ran a pirate website is the first person in the U.S. to be convicted of felony Internet piracy - max penalty 3 years prison and $250,000 fine. Read all about the
conviction. "
Telecommunications. An international call doesn't cost on a per-call basis in real terms.
"Service" is when I call tech support and someone takes the TIME to help me.
Apparently, you don't consider your long distance telephone service to be a "service" ?
The "new" work required to handle specific problems or tasks can be billed on an hour by hour or instance by instance basis.
Don't be silly. Can you afford to pay someone to write MS Word ?
The previous effort that has gone into building software, because of softwares infinite nature, is worth nothing.
Again, this is hogwash. If it's really worth nothing, then why is the market willing to pay for the "previous effort" ? ( btw, note that your reasoning implies that you needn't pay long distance telephone bills, since the infrastructure is also there in advance ) Surely, if what you were saying was correct, the market would not be willing to pay for software, and commercial software as we know it would cease to exist.
Let's see here, who benefits the most from this? Not the average Joe American -- he's getting his taxes jacked so that this kid can be put in jail on what amounts to trumped up charges (yes, any way you slice it it's still salami).
It's big companies who sell their software packages for ridiculous amounts of money.
The same companies who want their sealed licenses held in as high regard as a note from god himself.
Golly, maybe someday I'll have enough money to buy my own laws. Until then the apologists for this crap can take their moralizing and their car analogies and shove them.
Packet monkies? warez0rz? with the advent of Asdl/boradband/and numerous other internet connections evolving from the blindingly fast 900 baud modem i remember using in my childhood...im not too worried about packet monkies...personaly...the point is moot. Ill tell ya what they need...not ppl...but simple AI's...small protocol programs that monitor the exchange of warez and the like. ill stop my oblivious and irrelevant rant now..but I think it sounds like the matrix...
"all to (sic) ready" was a typo, of course :)
That's true. However, last I check, MS Office Premium was selling for $675, while Quake 2 went for a scant $28.95. The bottom line is that more time, manpower, R&D, and ultimately, money, goes into office apps. Look at iD Software, probably the premier game shop in the world. They have what, 4 lead coders? 6? I personally know of many a business app worked on by teams of ten, even twenty times that. For game companies, yes piracy is bad, but in the grand scheme of things, the software copyright laws are to protect businesses from other businesses.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
I'll be starting a Free Jeffrey! web site next week. I have the site designed and running now, I just need to get the domain registered and setup. I'll be selling "Free Jeffrey!" bumper stickers and T shirts at an unbeleivably low low price. I bet you just can't wait!
you people truely have no spine.
Just as well you posted anonymously, then.
It's called an "out of court settlement." The corporation goes, "We noticed you're using a bunch of our software without a license. Pay the license to us plus a penalty of $____ and we won't prosecute you." Sometimes they take them to court and pay the settlement then, sometimes they take them to court, don't settle, and win there.
Generally, the company agrees with the settlement, not wanting the bad PR or the legal headache. I imagine it's a pretty fairly common practice.
Absolutely, ISPs need to stop pretending that they have any sort of duty to protect the privacy of their paying customers. It would be so much easier if they would just post a log of all their users' activities to their web site. Along with their addresses and phone numbers so that it's easy to stop this sort of hooliganism. America Online should be admired for disclosing confidential information to the Navy about that gay officer, without making them go through all that pointless "due process" drivel. (Yes, that was sarcasm.)
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Mommy and daddy won't guy me some of the software because it is so damn expensive...have you seen the cost of 3D Studio Max or Lightwave Studio? I can not afford them and neither can my parents.
Why do you think i have a computer? The only reason to have one is so you can break laws! This is just crazy, How is the DOJ going to get every pirate? If they really wanna start to curb it they'll have to shut down IRC- That's where all this stuff is at(& icq file transfers). Not websites. i've seen every new movie, every new game, a ton of unreleased games(homeworld, c&c2, and halflife a while back) just keep mp3's- sure i'll buy the cd if i like the whole thing- its crazy to have 80 megs of 1 album, go out and buy it people So the DOJ will have to crack down on: ICQ IRC AOL chatrooms/mail Usenet free webspace sites Not gonna happen! if it does i'll look like this: http://thor.prohosting.com/~hitler/ not a pretty future
While I agree that $250,000 fine and 3 years imprisonment is serious penalty for this kind of thing, there are some points I'd like to contest:
1) This is a MAXIMUM penalty, not necessarily the penaltly that will be paid. This is written clearly in all commercial software license agreements.
2) $100,000 is probably a slightly conservative estimate for a 3 year term. That's over $33,000 a year, which is almost the average salary of the American worker.
3) If the guy had $2500 worth of software on his site, and say (over time) an estimated 10,000 people downloaded the the whole site, that is at least $25,000,000 of commercial software and music software being distributed at no cost.
4) I'm a geek, and I don't have a pirated copy of Windows. Or any illegal MP3s. All of my MP3s are from CDs I own. And what's the point of pirating software when you can get better for free?
I hope the judge has some pity on this kid and lets him make it up in a way that he is able. But let's face it, piracy is illegal. Yeah, a little software piracy actually does help make money for Microsoft and other companies, but if there were no laws against it, a lot of people would be out of a job.
Also, if you're going to pirate software, you should know the consequences in advance. If you know what the penalty is in advance, you can't say it's "cruel." If you don't; well, then you're just plain dumb.
And it's not unusual; I remember having read these terms of penalty for many years.
And/or let's set up a 24-hour judiciary board that can expedite the process of granting permission to get that information. I'd suggest an agreement between ISP's that would provide reciprocal assurances that said ISP would provide contact information and assist in tracing spoofed packets (esp. in the case of backbone providers) should an attack be shown to be occurring, but that might be prone to a bit of abuse ("Uhh yah, um I'm with Joe's ISP and we're seeing one of your users attacking us and stuff.. umm.. can we have his phone number?") unless the agreement explicitely spelled out what was considered valid proof of the attack (though I guess if you're calling the source ISP, they should be able to quickly do a packet analysis from that customer and determine if they're performing some sort of attack or not..).
hotline doesn't exist anymore ( dont believe me go to hotlinesw.com ) but arent you 31337 for brining it up... All communication via the hotline protocol is detected by eschalon and then secret agents are sent to your house to destroy your communications equipment. phear.
Surely, if what you were saying was correct, the market would not be willing to pay for software, and commercial software as we know it would cease to exist.
This is exacly what I am saying. With the growth of Linux and a braoder knowledge of OSS, consumers as a whole will NOT be willing to pay for software. I think this is 10-15 years down the road, but I can see it happening. Things just have to get a whole lot easier, which events llke the RHAT IPO will speed right along.
Apparently, you don't consider your long distance telephone service to be a "service" ?
Can I make a copy of my long distance service, give it to my friends, and still have my long distance service? There is nothing else the same, sorry. We really are using matter replicators. Actualyly thought replicators, but roughly the same thing.
+&x
You might be surprised. Poor college kids with campus ethernet connections can be surprisingly resourceful. Without this class of Internet user, I really doubt MP3 would have been as popular as it is today, and I doubt VCD's online would even exist.
Can you really stand up and claim that the companies that sell intellectual property are making too little money
today???
Microsoft? The record companies? Book publishers? These are the most bloated and rich companies in the world.
Why? Becase we are giving them ridiculously much power through current IP laws.
Yes, I can stand up and say that companies that sell software are making too little money. Microsoft is really the exception when it comes to making gobs of money in the software industry. There are a lot of great companies putting out great products ( Be, for example) that would be out of business immediately if it weren't for copyright laws that allow them to keep people from giving away their stuff for free. Sure, microsoft may be "the big bad evil company" but we as a society shouldn't just throw out all of the laws that allow programmers to get paid just because one "evil" company depends on those laws. Microsoft isn't the only company you're hurting by illegally copying software. You're also hurting a lot of companies that really busted their asses to write good software. If you don't think that's fair, then don't use their software. It's very simple.
Once upon a time in China there were very harsh laws. There was only one punishment - death - for nobody would dare break any law at all if it meant they would die, right?
Well, a small platoon had been held up by the weather. The punishment for being late was death.
So the men spoke amongst eachother. The punishment for rebellion was also death. Well, since they could only die once, they rebelled.
End of story? The dynasty with the harsh laws eventually fell, to be replaced with years of anarchy, and finally a new dynasty -sans- harsh laws, the Han dynasty I think.
Considering how much warez there is on the Internet, the number of people convicted is very tiny, is it one of million pirates get busted or what? The software companies just wanted a case, I don't think this will have big effects on the warez scene. Mo bandwidth mo warez.
By the way, I personally do not pirate. Heck, I even pay for shareware. The correct response to overpriced proprietary software is what the GNU project does - write a version as or almost as good, and distribute it freely.
For example, if you ever are tempted to pirate a photo or image editing suite, go download The GIMP instead.
--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
Telcos don't deserve to be payed because they are monopolies and only offer high speed services at astronimical rates. I would be all for running/repairing the local telco myself for free with the all the good stuff lame companies throw out. Same thing with the cable TV company. They can't do a good job, but a non-profit organization that actually CARES could.
Did any1 notice on the Simpsons when Mulder said 2 Scully... "I hardly think the FBI has time 4 matters like that..." he was referencing to the supposed shipment of drugs. Well I hardly think the real police should even go solving the supposed "warez" problems.. after all there r much more important crimes 2 b solved 1st. The fact that "warez" only really rips off companies who write software 4 a stupid OS like WinDOH's anyway. So who cares if M$ WinDOHz 98 gets ripped of... as if BiggyG needs another $100 bill 2 wipe his a** with! :-)} If companies were really that concerned about money they would put more effort into real security for their software.
System Panel (Linux When Possible, WinDOH's when nothing else is avalible)
I'm going to point out something here that may at first seem rather obvious. Because of legal judgements like this, we can never become the Star Trek world.
Though I don't want to step on any toes, it has always appeared to me that Star Trek 'The Next Generation' was the most ideal of the differing Star Trek television programs. I watched more of that than the others, so I'll speak from what I know here. The Government no longer needed money because people no longer really needed to buy stuff. They could pretty much replicate whatever they wanted from energy. Do you see where I'm going here?
It may seem obvious that we may never have a commander of a starship who fights aliens bare-handed and gets laid by blue and green chicks every other episode, but has it occurred to anyone that in the evolving world of nanotechnology and replicatable software, it's never going to fly to make free copies of stuff?
If we ever have replicators, they will infringe on so many patents and copywrites that we will never be able to use them legally. We have already reached that point with software. If we want to make copies of stuff that we purchased(other than copylefted stuff), we are most likely violating the law. We are on our way (or may have already gotten there) to Selfishland. Not to be the proverbial pinko, but isn't this all about sharing? My argument for the illegal copying and distributing of mp3s (which I, of course, would _never_ consider doing myself) is that causing musicians to make less money through music creates less of a commercial, monetary influence, and more of a creative, from the heart influence. I stated this to my father. His comment was that musicians would stop making music if they couldn't make money. I seriously doubt that. Music wouldn't have occured in the first place if it required money as a fuel. So how does this apply to software? If all software is free, will only true artists make software? Will there still be a thriving market for business applications if all business software is pirated?
In my eyes, what made Star Trek so great was that it was all about artists. People with totally unselfish curiousity doing things because it was in there heart to do so. I guess I'm just talking about the federation here. How would our world change if the only contributions to it came from artists? Are we making a world safe for artists with all this selfishness and greediness, or do we only hear about the 'musicians' who are good businessmen who know what demographic they are playing to? It is my perspective that in a long term view, it is irresponsible and damaging to create a world where piracy is illegal. Theft is wrong... piracy is a good idea.
You are the one being silly.
You don't pay the phone company for building
the phone system, you pay them for renting
a line. while you are using the phone, that is
one less call they can handle at the moment.
Just because it's a flat montly fee instead of
minute by minute doesn't change anything. Of course service has value, but me copying software is not the software company doing me a service. The only service was me copying. If they don't want people using their software, they don't have to make and sell it in the first place. Your logic says that copying software is identicle to holding a programmer and gunpoint and forcing him to write something. But of course that isn't what happens. What happens is I spread the usefulness of the programmers service a little farther. It is absolutely wrong to take money for doing nothing! you shouldn't get paid for sitting on your ass. If you want to get paid for coding, find someone to pay you for coding! If you aren't willing to pay someone to write ms word, which will then be available to all, then as a matter of simple economics ms word can't and shouldn't be written.
Your logic would mean that if by some act of genious you were able to make it rain chocolate syrup every wednesday, then if you want to drink the syrup you should pay. Otherwise, just put out an umbrella and be very careful not to let any fall into your mouth. How can you not think that is absurd? To get paid for service arrange for payment BEFORE you do the service.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
burning in oil and/or at the stake
being crushed to death under stones
chinese water torture
etcetera, etcetera.
This is about as far from cruel and unusual as it's gonna get. The kid is convicted of a white collar crime, and if somehow he's lucky enough to actually see the inside of a jail cell it will be a minimum security resort, probably with rowing and ping-pong teams. Of course, just when he's getting acclimated they'll paroll his ass to make room for actually dangerous offenders.
And also, I can name people a lot worse off to have to pay $250k in restituitions than a 'wet behind the ears' college kid who happens to be about to hit the peak of his earning potential, and with a freshly minted CS degree to boot. No, I'd say this punishment is about as far from cruel as it gets.
Lastly, what *were* these damn lawmakers thinking when they passed laws prohibiting people from stealing the hard work of others. I mean jeez! Listen up. You and all your friends, and maybe every damn citizen in the US could pirate software, and it wouldn't make that much difference to some companies. These laws are in place mainly to guard against corporate piracy. Big corporations spend more on software purchases in a year than you or I combined will in a lifetime. And they always, always do it by the book. I one auto company who is probably more vigorous about rooting out piracy in their organization than the feds would be if they had to do it themselves. With lawsuit weary corporate lawyers on your back, you would be too. My point is that those laws are in place because if they weren't, software piracy would quickly skyrocket to a hundred billion dollar issue. Everyone you know may have an illegal copy of Windows, but that's hardly representative of the software market as a whole; most buyers still go through legal channels (because the bulk of the buyers are businesses.) This is why you can pirate every piece of software you own, yet the companies who make the software still remain in the black. *Somebody* has to be paying for it, and if these laws didn't exist *nobody* would.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Yeah, i'm sick of seeing all these "first post" messages too! :)
All your bays are belong to us!
ARGH..... NO, NO, NO, NO. Nobody I know plays on the net much. We get together and play over a LAN. We need the ability to set up our own servers whenever we want! I will NEVER pay for the right to do this. We don't like the net server Starcraft uses. It's slow, buggy, and we can't all get into the game half the time. That's why we play in person. If game companies do this I will boycott all of thier products, and yes, I DO pay for some of my favorite games. The others I tried and didn't like, so I deleted them. So yeah, I guess I "pirate" on occasion. But when I do, I try it and if I don't like it I delete it. Usually that same day. I don't like serials either. It's annoying to type a 20-30 digit "key" in just to install a game I *PAID MONEY FOR*. This doesn't stop the pirates. 99% of programs I lost my serial to I could go online and download a serial generator. Crackers are GOOD. (I mean crackers in the old sense, they "crack" copy protects) I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Better copy protects make better pirates! PERIOD. They have been able to find a way arround EVERYTHING. Even the hardware dongles. Laws won't do much either, it will drive it back underground like it did in the BBS days. It can't stop them. It's too easy to hide what you are doing! If they want to stop piracy, make the programs GOOD and charge a reasonable price. I have only played a few games I considered worth the $50+ pricetag. And I've bought them. Most of the others I thought I may consider buying at $20 or so. They just aren't that good. And don't even talk about "business" programs. $300 for a word processor? Ummm, no thanks. I'll learn TeX. That's no longer a problem, thankfully. There's a ton of good free/reasonably priced stuff out there now. StarOffice, KOffice, etc.. I almost bought Staroffice (And I qualify for the free home use license) because I thought it was a good deal at $30. But I ended up never using it so I deleted it. If it would have been less memory hungry I probably would have kept it arround and bought it. I'm not against making money. I just want to see value for my money. A restrictive license for a graphics program costing $1000 simply isn't value to me. I don't pirate it either, but I can see why some people do.
I've held it in this long, but I'm getting sick of every other post being "Piracy is wrong, he got what he deserved." For all of you "honest" folk, I offer the following question:
Why are all of you so bitter just because you guys are dumb enough to pay for the same shitty software everyone else gets for free?
90% of everything is crap, and whoever said that overestimated the quality of software. You could walk into a software store and spend a thousand dollars and not end up with a single game worth playing after a week. On the rare occasion that I find a game I really like, I, and most of the people I know, generally go out and buy it. I'll be damned if I'm going to buy any software before I at least have the opportunity to find out it sucks. As far as applications and utilities go, they profit from the training "pirates" get from using their software at home via their employers purchasing it (You want to talk about piracy, how about the ungodly prices they charge). And finally, I don't understand why the movie companies are in such a huff about the online pirated copies. I've seen these things, they are terrible. I'd rather watch the movie taped off of T.V. (which the movie companies don't seem too bothered by).
Before you say that none of this matters, it's still wrong, I'll simply say this: no one cares but you.
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It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
I'm not entirely certain that law was the best course of action, but it is admittedly somewhat more lenient than what they might have come up with. Ultimately, however, if what it implies about copyright law is spread, it could result in some rather disturbing changes.
It all comes down to whether people can be allowed to retain copies in their brains...a storage medium many would prefer could be cleansed after usage...
Interesting that without piracy most copyrighted works wouldn't be popular in the first place. If M$ hadn't shipped ms/pc-dos unprotected, and win 3.1 wasn't freely copyable we wouldn't have a windows-only world right now. M$ spread like a virus. Now the virus and its minions demand their due.
We know the answer.
Free software...
*And* (I'll say this again, so you guys may eventually get it):
Geek's Day Off.
We built it, and we can take it back, anytime we like.
Think about it. A Geek's Guild. Hmmmm....
Brak: What's THAT?
Thundercleese: A light switch.. of TOTAL DEVASTATION!
I disagree with the second half of your statement. True, operating systems, and business apps are mostly used by corporations, but just as many games and personal apps are being pirated as MS Office. No company I know of buys copies of Quicken or Quake. When you pirate these, you are tearing away their profit margins. The less money they make, the fewer apps to market. The fewer apps, the less compition. Less compition, higher prices. Now that I look at it like that, it seems the pirates are hurting us as much as the software companies.
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
The chair! The chair! Give 'im the chair!
Seriously, it's good to see thieves get what they deserve.
Possession of a dodgy copy of Win98 would probably be treated with the same indifference as being caught having an eighth in your pocket (slap wrist, don't to it again, here we'll have that for the next police ball -er, because you're not supposed to have it) and owning a website with 1000GB of pirated software will be treated with the same heavyhandedness expected to someone pushing several million worth of crack onto the streets.
Punishment to fit crime. No-one is seriously going to care much about the odd dodgy copy of Win98, Office etc. that a friend burned for you, but Microsoft would have an absolute fit if someone went and posted the ISO image on a public site, and you can expect to be prosecuted.
"Cake or death!" (E. Izzard)
--
"This isn't the post you're looking for. Move along."
The principle of open source is not give away code for nothing - it is to insure that no restrictions exist in the use of your information. People can have access to source code and still pay money for software. True, it may make generating profit from the sale of software alone more difficult. The point is that making software free does not necessarily mean making it gratis. As for livelihood, why don't you take your concerns to those factory workers made obsolete and out of work by technology? Software is a form of technology and there is no reason why it should be any less subject to change than any other "industry". (ie things change).
So this is the first person to be actually convicted of doing wrong for running a pirate website? They must've tuned up the legal system to actually convict someone of piracy after, what, 5 years of public knowledge of the internet. I'm guessing we can expect the second conviction around 2001, if we're lucky.
The funny thing is, pirate webpages are often not working, and real pirates tend to use FTP servers.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
"If I use a CD-ROM drive to make a copy of Quake, you can still play your original. Since you haven't been deprived of anything, you can't claim theft."
n ary&va=theft
.... thoughtcrime? copycrime? hehe....
this is nitpicking but actually, the English language might be more at fault than the law:
see http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictio
the definition of the word 'theft' still relates to physical property. the language hasn't caught up to how to handle software (the ubiquitous copyability of it) just yet.
there is an ethical issue (and, quite likely, a criminal issue once that becomes law) involved in copying someone's work without their permission, but it sure ain't theft.
hmm... newspeak
I am a poor uni student, but 500 meg would cost me way more than just hiring the movie (or even buying it). Uni would probably kick me out if I did 500 meg of downloading. (Plus i have nowhere to store that much stuff at uni, 10 meg quotas don't cut it!)
This is the best way to prevent piracy. No one is scared of getting caught so piracy runs ramped.
Stealing a car is wrong and so is stealing software. Just because you don't directly hurt someone doesn't mean you are not causing any harm
if this works, i laugh :)
I'm not saying that piracy is good, it's bad, but perhaps they should calculate 10% of retail value for the damage to the software and movie companies, since no actual physical property was removed.
I bet they claimed the production cost of the movies/software * the number of times pirated to calculate damage done. At least that's the kind of thing they did with Mitnick, don't see why they wouldn't do it here, considering according to this article, they pushed this mostly to make an example out of the guy. To quote: " Mr. Levy's case should serve as a notice that the Justice Department has made prosecution of Internet piracy one of its priorities".
Does anyone else think that a legal system where cases are prosecuted to different extents depending on whether or not the case is needed to make an example (i.e. in a first case) is absurdly injust?
Scenerio time:
10 years ago, you bought the latest greatest game for your new 386 with EGA graphics. It came on 5 5.25" floppies, which you just found today and you _really_ want to play that thing again.
Of course, the dogs have eaten the disks, the cats have pissed on them, and they've been struck by several meteorites. The game company doesn't exist anymore, or if they do they certainly don't carry the old game anymore. Well, you paid $50 for these things 10 years ago...
That's what I find pirate sites useful for anyway... old games that you bought a long time ago and can't get anymore. Doesn't seem that bad to me...
F0 07 C7 C8
You have to be a moron to post pirated software/movies/music on a public web page. Thats just kind of screaming "arrest me, I don't have a living brain cell in my head".
I have no pity on this guy for what he did.
-- toolie
I enjoy reading Jon Katz;I bought his book, VR and have saved dozens of keeper articles. That said, your posting cracked me up. Thanks for the laugh.
1000 SlashDot sigs
Anonymous posting becomes more critical in the future as people won't put stuff behind addresses but rather in public domain where anyone can grab it.
BTW, I really am a coward not just too lazy to register.
I'm a broke college student. The only way I can obtain commercial software for windows is through pirating. I recently pirated Visual C++ and have done well in it by reading books and online tutorials. Now that another student was convicted of pirating software, I refuse to pirate ever again. Since I can't get anymore commercial apps for windows for free, I'm now going to abandon all programming I did for Win9x and develop and learn on Linux where most software apps are free and open source. If businesses want me to learn Win commercial apps when I graduate and get a job, I'll tell them this reason and they can pay me to learn Win programming and supply me with commercial apps for free.
This was a great wake up call!
Stealing a car does directly impact someone. The owner of the car will no longer have use of it, it may be an insurance writeoff (if the thief, who is usually a kid, busts it up). In the best case, the owner still goes through a big hassle to get the car back.
Stealing software is more indirect. It affects the bottom line of the software companies and to some extent indirectly the salaries of the programmers (although the programmers' salaries/wages aren't going to go up necessarily if more copies are sold).
Both are wrong, but calling theft of software the same as car theft is, in my opinion, a bad comparison.
BWAHAHAHAHA!
:) I mean what has he agreed to? Just a thought.
OK real case I have a LEGAL copy of MASM 6.11 have had it for years. Have used it on various computers I have owned over the years. Made backups of the floppies, didn't use it for a while. One day decided to give it a spin again. All disk number 2's were shot. The software failed to load on my system. In essence it was like I suddenly lost something that I had paid a lot of hard earned money for.
So I found a phone number in one of the manuals that came with the package. Called it. Played phone tree for a bit. NEVER did talk to a human EVER. It simply was not an option. Eventually the phone tree hungup on me. Went to M$'s website, never did find an email address. Filled out some stupid form I found there. NEVER did hear from the bastards.
Oh the story does have a happy ending though. I found the complete tree of the stuff in a tarball on one of my Linux systems. I decompressed that and burned it to a CD. Who's gonna copyright 1 and 0 now? Service, don't make me laugh. Me going and cutting your lawn is a service. Commercial software retail publishers are not! They put out that code to snag a bunch of rube's money. And hey, I got to hand them a lot of credit because it works great! (the snagging of money, not any "service" that they provide).
If it's this "service" that I am really paying for with commercial software, well I say bootleg away! Oh, and I just love reading those EULAs they basically all boil down to this, We own you, you own nothing, you gave us money, but have really bought nothing, if anything bad happens we take no responsibility, you're on your own.
Hey, save yourself the hassle of dialing this fabled tech support next time I'll give ya all the tech support you'll ever need for that commercial crap right here and now. Wait for the upgrade it will contain bug fixes. Reboot your system, if all else fails reload the entire system and wait for the upgrade. Please have your credit card ready when a representitive talks to you. Each incident costs $35...
Would it be legal to give one of these "if you break this seal..." packages to a blind man, let him open it, drop it in a burner, then guide his finger to the Enter button?
TuX saves
I guess this crackdown is going to be really effective, like the current police / FBI efforts against drugs.
:-)
In this case, IIRC the kid wasn't making money off it, but in general profit from piracy outweighs the rewards. In most small computer stores in European countries you can buy a beautiful shrinkwrapped copy of Office 97 for 1/3 to 1/2 of Microsoft's price, complete with a unique license number which MS will provide phone support against - and it's a pirate copy, of course.
This sort of business is worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually, and like the drug industry the only way to prevent it will be to make it unprofitable.
The solution to both problems is obvious - legalise soft drugs, and ship PC's with Linux preloaded
Dave
they pay a fee to use the story. It's a valid use --no piRACY
------- Oh damn.... the Sigfile escaped... -Great OM
Copyright=infringement upon our basic freedoms? WTF? Am I the only one here who...? I think these people need to put themselves in the shoes of the people who develop the information that's sold. If everything was free, there would be no way to support yourself, seeming as I can't grow a big enough garden in my backyard to support my family for a year...
The "max penalty" for this is 3 years in prison. However, this is a violation of copyright laws, not drug dealing. Nobody goes to prison for violating copyright laws.
Years ago, when the dry-toner xerography process first appears, lots of "photocopy shops" appeared around every college campus. They would duplicate any book you wanted, and nobody asked questions about whether you had the right to repro the book. Eventually publishers pushed Congress to do something about it, and some copy shops got raided. A pattern of sentencing quickly emerged: the "pirate" loses the equipment used for the copying, and pays a per-copy fee for each work duplicated. (This was stiff--a high-speed Xerox duplicator could run more than $20,000.) If sentencing for this guy is any different, his attorney will have an automatic appeal issue. By rights he'll lose the computer, router, CSU/DSU, etc., and he'll pay a fine. But the feds are just as cognizant of the cost of housing a prisoner as anybody else, and they aren't likely to want to pay the money to put this guy up in the Big House.
That said, there's an interesting quesion: why *this* guy? Of the zillions of web sites out there with MP3s of 'N Sync and videos of Pamela & Tommy Lee, what did this particular guy do to appear on the federal radar screen?
If this signals the start of a Justice Department crackdown on bootleg software, then a number of people on the Internet might want to worry (or at least move to a server co-hosted offshore). But this might also be a case like Al Capone's--he was not sent to prison for racketeering, murder, smuggling, or even tax evasion. He was sent to prison for *mailing a false tax return*. The feds nailed him with both barrels for a trivial offense, because the feds had decided to nail him, and just needed an excuse. (The civil liberties questions here, of course, are legion.)
If this guy gets a Kevin Mitnick sentence, rest assured--the feds think he's responsible for something else but don't want to (or can't) make the charge stick.
I'm glad someone finally brought up the fact that we are fighting over the stealing of luxuries. Does anyone here who pirates software actually rely upon it for a living? Hmm...methinks that Americans are lazy F***ing ba****ds.
I don't know of a computer geek that doesn't have a harddrive full of MP3s and an illegal copy of windows.
:-)
:-)
Well, I don't have an illegal copy of Windows (I run Linux and it isn't possible to have an illegal copy of Linux, at least last time I checked
As for the MP3s, I plead the fifth...
Legislators, what were you smoking to pass this law
I dunno, but I'll bet it was even more illegal than those MP3s and illegal "warez".
My journal has hot
I prefer to think of the software industry as a sponge. These companies have leeched enough of my money to pay for hundreds of programs. Many of which i used for a SHORT period of time and then never again. They made their money off of me. I'm just enjoying products for which i payed for in advance.
But while this is the popular defence line for people that use illegal copies of commercial software, it is not 100% true.
Suppose there was no possible way to use a sotware without a valid license, you would buy some software. Right? Well, you say, no. There is Linux. You can have free software. But does free (beer) software does everything you need. Well, for some, it does. But for most users free software still have many gaps to fill, which now commercial software does, or does better.
And what exactly, are those gaps?
For the bussiness sector, there are many, but for two reasons we could avoid discussing the bussiness sector:
1. The argunment "can't afford it" is not valid for the bussiness sector. If you make moeny with it, than you _should_ afford to buy it.
2. A bussiness have much more to loose if they use pirated software, so most piracy in the bussiness sector stems from ignorance.
So let's go back to the home user. What are your needs? A word processor? Ok, so microsoft seems to be really loosing from sales of MS-office - do they? And anyway, no there are free alternative for almost everything a home user might want (So ok, maybe linux is not yet the OS for mommy to use, once again, MS is the main looser ...)
But there is one sector that can be really hurt by software piracy: games. Computer games are used by the same audience that do most of the software "piracy".
One may argue that in the absence of game piracy there would be a prosperous business of game rental shops, but lets avoid this argument, and go back to piracy over the net.
Well, games have one good way to protect themselves from net piracy - their size. Would you really download 100-200mb games from the net? Probably not. Usually, someone coppies the CD from a friend. It is much more convinient.
So, who really lose from piracy over the net? No-one, really.
hello folks, my name is jeff levy, i was the one who has now been convicted of the net act, i thought this would be the best website for me to offer up my side of the story to the internet community, so i made myself an account and am gonna post this up, first of all i was NOT running any sort of direct download website, they found a LIST on a website, it had no links, to get something from me you had to know me and have me put my ftp server up, which was small, and not open 24/7 by any means, i was very little time, the fbi was upset at how little a guy i was, they though i was gonna be a kingpin but i ended up being small potatoes.....i accepted the conviction because i didnt think that the whole ordeal is worth the tax dollars and time and effort a public defender would end up having to put into defending me when in the end i could end up worse off after a trial...i am already offered a reasonable plea which i accepted that i personally feel is a symbolic kind of win for the gov because the teeth of it is the felony conviction, while i am not guarateed, i think i will most likely get no restution and a probationary sentance, which will both most likely be recommended, the plea keeps me from any real financial, incarceration danger by letting them brand me a felon...so i will write more if people like, i havent read everything people have said yet but i will, feel free to email me at terrapin@televar.com or you can sometimes find me still on efnet in #uoregon
take it easy people!
-jeff
ARM THE WHALES
Imagine that it cost them twice as much to build and maintain the infrastructure. Do you believe that this would have no effect on pricing ?
you pay them for renting a line.
This is not true with long distance service. You don't "rent" the line.
Of course service has value, but me copying software is not the software company doing me a service.
Using the software is the programmer doing you a service.
If you want to get paid for coding, find someone to pay you for coding!
The programmers do that. The software company pays them, and in turn, the software company recovers the money by enterring into contractual agreements with customers.
If you aren't willing to pay someone to write ms word, which will then be available to all, then as a matter of simple economics ms word can't and shouldn't be written.
"Simple economics" says that MS word can and should be written if there are people willing to enter into an agreement with MS to use MS Word under certain terms and conditions. These terms and conditions include not redistributing the software. If you don't agree to the terms of the license, simple contract law says you can't and shouldn't use the software.
By the way, if you really believe that commercial software shouldn't exist, why not put your money where your mouth is, and instead of pirating commerical software, just use free software.
>Therefore, the price assigned to $(PRODUCT) is arbitrary and has nothing whatsoever to do with its development costs. The consequence of
>this is that there is no entitlement to recover development costs, since there is no direct rational connection between development costs and retail costs.
I don't care if the price was pulled out of the developer's ass. The product belongs to the developer, because they made it. You do not have any "right" to what they developed, besides one they wish to give you on mutually agreeable terms.
I have seen quite a bit of distateful sites that claim to be "warez" sites and these look like pirate software sites. Why is it that nobody can be busted very easily these days? Just go to yahoo.com and search for "warez" and you get zillions of illegal sites with pirated software posted all over them. Is this not the oddest thing? So many people just freely posting this stuff without a care in the world of what could ever happen to them. But what I would like to know is, what does it take to get busted?
Like to you have to be selling pirated software to get busted, or is it just that fact that if you have a warez site that you can get busted? These are unclear to me, but if so, there will be a lot of people who will have to change what they have been doing in the past and clear out their warez sites...
------------------- Get Paid to Surf the Web @ http://join.at/moneyoffer
Not true. At present, people are willing to pay, including linux users. Your claim is purely unfounded conjecture at this point.
Can I make a copy of my long distance service, give it to my friends, and still have my long distance service?
You are not really "replicating" either service: the service is there to begin with ( ie the software or the telecommunications infrastructure ) and you are paying for the right to use it. Just because dishonesty is easier with software doesn't make it more ethical.
But in anser to your question, yes, there are ways you can defraud the long distance companies, and get long distance calls for the price of a local call. You can teach all your friends how to do it, hence "duplicate" the service.
Pirates are idiots. Software corporations are idiots. The computer industry is composed of nothing but idiots. Software should be free to all who want to play with it and cost for those who want to profit from it. Plain and simple. Oh yeah, and Rob Malda is an idiot... Flame Bait ;PPPPPPPP
o i read some of these more now and want to reply some...if you didnt read my earlier one, i am jeffrey gerard levy, first off...
some people have asked, why him? well first off all i was using ALOT of bandwith on my universities network, sometimes sustaining 500 kbps overnight, sometimes nothing, but i was using a lot and they noticed at the computer center, then they found an excel list of some mp3s and warez that was on my shell but not with no links to it from my webpage, they obliviously were monitoring every file i sent to my shell and when they found that, they overeacted and called the fbi instead of being reasonable and calling me up and telling me to cut it out (which i would have done immediatly and permanently), so instead the U of O has cost the taxpayers of oregon an unecessary costs associated with my legal journey...also, i was NOT selling anything, i was trading and one of the reasons i got caught also is that i was trading vcd's and isos which took up a lot of bandwith, i had many cds of warez as well as mp3 and vcd and isos burned to cd, that evidence would have done me in in court, so i accepted the plea//....another thing...this is not a wake up call to everyone to be paranoid, if anything it is my opinion that this would end up being a wake-up call to people that "gee, i guess not all that many people are being busted after all" they never asked me to help them bust people, so, make whatever inferences you want from that...personally i believe all software should be free, its inherantly flawed
by the way, WE ALL NEED TO HELP SHOOT DOWN THE B-2 LEGISLATION!!!
thanks all for this forum, i'll write some more later today
ARM THE WHALES
Not only is it a very valid point that most of these people would never have purchased the product, but a lot of the time, that kind of pirating eventually turns into a profit. I pulled thousands of programs off of the BBS's and from friends when I was in high school, and now I use many of those companies tools on a regular basis. And my copies are legit.
"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson
At 10Mbps Ethernet, and given access to CD burners, it pretty much *will* happen. It certainly happens here, where students have occasionally attracted the attention of our sysadmins for serving extreme amounts of traffic -- full-length movies (e.g. _SW:TPM_), applications, and so forth.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
HEH!!! The developer owns it? What are you smoking man?
The developer of ANY copyrighted work doesn't own the work at all, the only thing they posess is an exclusive 'right to copy'. Without this right, anyone would be free to copy. The ONLY thing being broken is the law stating that the developer has the exclusive right to duplicate his work.
Now, that is the fact of the matter. Technically, it is illegal, bootlegs have been around for years and years of all sorts (back in the thriving days of vinyl they existed) and most likely will forever, and I have nothing against it either, as we all drive over the speed limit, and you don't see any big organizations out there trying to stop that now do you?
My point is, that it IS illegal. Read a licensing agreement, by using the product you agree to it. Most people choose to break these licensing agreement, which is definetly a crime. The only question is, is it a criminal offense, or are the software companies allowed to sue each individual which pirates their software?
What?
Hmmmm. Two particular areas.
* Office applications. Off-hand, are there any GPL/BSD/etc-licensed [including free for *commercial use*] office suites that provide both easy migration, and full functionality?
* Game development -- not so much as engines, but data. There are projects that take a LONG time to develop and write, and potentially a LOT of resources.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
i've got a pirated copy of win95 on my system but after buying the win95 upgrade in august of 95. i feel i've given bill gates enuff of my money for a crap product.
i was actually very stealthy compared to others, and also relativly small time, after all i only had a 5 gig drive, how much can u do with that?
the reason i got caught is because my school called the fbi instead of me to resolve this, thuis costing you the taxpayer, more money, i wasnt being stupid, i was being as stealthy as i could for what i knew, using a strange port, not up 24/7 and NOTHING could ever at any point be downloaded from anywhere except a secure non anonymous ftp server, and no the address of it was not on my website, there was nothing on my website, there was an excel list on my shell
ARM THE WHALES
1) using software is taking advantage
of a service already provided. There is no additional service no matter how many people use it.
2) If many people want to enter into a contract under which they will use ms word under certain conditions, then of course that is their business. But if that were the case copyright law wouldn't be needed, ordinary contract law could take care of it. Paying for software, then having the option of either agreeing to the license and using the software under unnacceptable terms, or not accepting the license and being unable to use the software, is not acceptable. many stores will not except returns or exchanges on software. And we've seen how taking it to microsoft doesn't do any better. I would have no problem with copyright if it always took the form of a WRITTEN contract. At the time of payment, the salesperson presents you with a contract, which you must sign, NOT click. The difference is if I signed such a contract, and a thief stole my copy, and the thief distributed copies, the recipients of those copies would not be under the contract. Copyright law prevents copying without permission, whether or not you agreed not to copy in the first place.
3) I do use free software instead of pirating proprietary software. I am commenting on how the proprietary model is a flawed and evil system.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
No artistic work can be owned, ever. No patented idea is owned either.
The government doesn't and cannot grant ownership of an artistic work or an idea. They grant something different.
A Copyright is the exclusive right to copy a work, it makes duplication by anyone not sanctioned by the artist illegal. It is not ownership of the artistic work, but ownership of the [exclusive] right to duplicate. There is a huge difference between the two. That is SPA/RIAA speak, that silliness that any type of intellectual 'work' can be owned or stolen.
Patents likewise aren't ownership of an invention, but the granting of an exclusive (and transferable) right for the inventor being the only one to use that invention. That same difference applies here.
The RIAA/SPA has already won, even their enemies are calling ideas and artistic works what the RIAA/SPA wish to have them called: 'property'. 'Copy' has become a synonym for 'theft', or 'piracy'.
Compare the two sentences following:
XYZ was convicted of theft for pirating intellectual property for use in his small, barely surviving business.
XYZ was convicted of copyright violation for duplicating software [artistic works] for use in his small, barely surviving business.
ok so it was originally posted anonymously
well, i agree with it, and seeing as it isnt COPYRIGHTED, i will post it here in direct response and not from a coward
The very nature of computers is to make copies, you stupid ***holes! Are we going to have speech licences next? "Sorry you are not allowed to repeat anything that anyone else has said because someone holds the copyright on that thought. Off to the concentration camp with you." That's THIER wet dream isn't it.... Total criminilization for all TODAY! Make all "crimes" a federal offense, punishable by 10 years in prison. Create laws so that everyone no matter how young, old, or lazy can become and endentured servant to the system forever. I don't know what irks me more, the feds and lawmakers for doing what they do OR people on here that disagree with thier actions, yet are willing to give lip services and puss out by saying, "well he was dumb and deserves what he got since he got caught." you people truely have no spine
ARM THE WHALES
Wrong wrong wrong!
When you use the long distance service you are taking up resources on their physical hardware, which means at the time when you are making a call they can now handle one less call at that time. You are paying for the right to use their scarce hardware.
With software you are paying for the right to use YOUR OWN hardware with their non-scarce software. Using long distance with out paying is ripping them off because you are hogging their systems without permission. When you are using it they can't sell that service you are taking up, nor can they use it themselves. That I might call theft of service. Using software without paying, even if you think is bad, is not the same thing, and isn't even related. When you use software without paying you are enjoying the benefits of a service already performed. If I priate 1000 copies of 3dsmax, kinnetix has just as many copies as they had before. Assuming the people I gave copies to wouldn't have bought it anyway, kinnetix experiences no change in ability to use, sell, or distribute their product.
You seem to believe that if something benefits you, you are obligated to pay for whoever is responsible. Why should I have to pay for the development of 3dsmax? I never asked anyone to write it. I never entered a contract under which I would pay for it to be written, nor would kinnetix be doing any additional work nor would i be typing up their hardware if I were to pirate it.
If you want to argue that information is property, go ahead and do it. That is a matter of philosophy.
But there is a fundamental difference between the 'crime' of pirating software and the crimes of stealing cars, or phreaking the phone company. Confusing those issues only makes you sound brainwashed and stupid.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
This would be impractical. However, I agree that it should be possible to obtain a refund if you don't accept the terms of the license.
Here, I'm going to shit in a bottle. This is art, I demand a return on my investment, you have to buy it from me for $1000 as a beautiful artistic work. You have to do this because no one else is fool enough to, and I have a right for return on investment.
Send me email and/or a credit card number so that we may finish the sale.
Artists aren't obligated any more than executives, programmers, or lazy bums for getting a return on investment.
You have already lost, see my other comments, you are using RIAA/SPA-speak for talking about artistic works. Calling something with the words 'Intellectual Property' imply that you believe that intellectual products can be owned, which is opposite from patent law and copyright law.
Copyright law is the ownership of the RIGHT TO COPY, Patent law is the ownership of the RIGHT TO USE an invention.
There is a huge step from this to OWNERSHIP OF THE IDEA. You, and most others, have taken it, your words give you away.
See my other comments.
BTW, have you noticed that the way it works is fascinatingly doublespeak.
Freedom is Slavery, Duplication is Theft, Words are Property.
The _REAL_ issue is that software shouldn't be sold the way it is. If I want to do something with a high-end program just once, I obviously can't justify purchasing it for hundreds or thousands of dollars. The problem is that most of the high-end apps are priced for someone who will use them 40+ hours a week.
The solution is, once you have a fast line, to run applications remotely. I think the ideal would be somewhat like signing up for cable or satellite service, where you would maybe for $20+ a month get a broad selection of apps you can use (and the companies who created the apps would get revenues based on use, the way radio stations pay musicians for airplay of songs). This would let computer illiterates use computers too, since apps wouldn't have to be installed and maintained locally.
To access the really high-end apps, you would pay a larger monthly fee. Obviously some apps (e.g. real-time video editing) would take more bandwidth than anybody has, but applications could be local (self-installing from the web) and require a connection to the web to function for a session (like how Starcraft asks for the CD to start it up).
MS knows that, and that's why the BSA is targeted at business users only. Private persons must get used (addicted?) to MS software, whether they pay for the software or not.
OSses is a different thing. It's nice for them they can make sure it's very difficult to buy a PC without their OS.
By "campus ethernet" I mean like a resnet program.. dorm room PC's linked to the Internet via high-speed links. It's fairly commonplace in big universities nowadays.
there are many reasons to protect piracy in its current form:
once again america is not the whole world and if you compare the prices of windows and office with the average wages in , say, russia or poland or china. now it is fucking ridiculous to try to enforce people to spend they 1-2 months worth of salary on os.
the second reason is (and i know it for the fact) that the ability to try out and play with software benefits a lot to the community. the ability to get pirate versions of hundreds of titles of software is incredibly beneficial because you are exposed to the products and technologiews that you would never otherwise be able to use.
i would never buy $4000 3dsmax just to try it out or i would never buy corel office or os2 just to try them out. and being a student i cannot spend the money on software that my university doesn't provide.
people in america compared with the rest of the world have a significantly smaller experience with various software titles just because they have access to a much less pirate software (as opposed to going to a flea market in easter europe or china and buying cd-rs)
once again, the software piracy is one of those things that up until now was implied that only big corporations get slapped by lawsuits while the small fish like students are told a "no-no" only if they become to obvious.
so let's keep it that way. don't be stupid and obvious and let the governmnet police the big corporations not the students. and finally the free software effort should continue and grow.
...sie sind nicht grün
I don't know where you got your information on that Carmack quote, but Quake2 was released cracked 4 days before it hit the store shelves.. If i recall correctly, CLASS released it on December the 8th.. and q2 did not hit the stores until dec 12th.. It was part of CLS's "Santa-CLASS" series of releases... Also, EA did not 'bust their employees', they caught ONE insider, who in turn led them to 6 others, mostly members of pdm. Those 6 in turn may or may not provide information leading to the arrest of others, but currently it is just those 6. The bottom line however, as we both know is that they can bust as many people as they want, but piracy is NOT going to stop. There will ALWAYS be someone new in the scene to take the place of the top crackers/suppliers/leaders+curries. *yawn* -ndetroit (nwr 99)
Right! It's about time we exposed these antipiracy people for what they are: greedy chocolate syrup rain hoarders.
Free the chocolate rain!
An inefficient process for carrying out the death sentence reduces the deterrent effect of the death penalty. If death penalty appeals could be finished within a year of sentencing, the death penalty might actually act as a deterrent. As it stands now, it can't. If people are concerned about prosecutorial misconduct in these cases, I propose that the penalty for misconduct should be the death penalty.
This is a fallacy - there are several ways of determining a price per unit:
This is the way most companies have to think of these things, because most people still buy software on a unit-by-unit basis (even a license fee for registering a free download is still a unit, and not an ongoing rental cost, for instance).
This is not to say I disagree with the rest of what you say - in fact I totally agree with your conclusions. The fact that I can take a copy of your data or programs and you won't know and won't lose your original fundamentally changes the way people have to look at ownership as a whole.
Once on-line distribution becomes commonplace (instead of the rarity it is now) we can hope that the price of software goes down. However, you cannot avoid the fact that you as a software programmer want to be paid for your work, simply because you no software programmer lives a fully money-independant lifestyle (do you grow your own food? Produce your own power? Own your own cost-free connection to the Internet? Etc...) As practically everyone else on this planet earns money by working, you probably think you should get the same deal. So software does cost money to produce (even if you then give it away - this sort of charity has put the FSF and Linux where it is today, don't forget).
So if data is copiable at negligable cost, how do I get paid for it? This is where software licenses come in. You buy a license from me to run a copy of my software - and plenty of shareware programs do this already. What's the cost? Well, significantly less than the traditional cost for software, because you haven't had to shell out for the production of multiple copies of physical media. But it still costs money, because you as the programmer still want to be reimbursed for your time.
Though I agree with the bulk of your arguments, Schwab, there are several fallacies in your reasoning. Fortunately, this doesn't change your intent, which is that we have to come up with a better paradigm of paying programmers and companies to produce the software we use than the one we currently have.
Good luck. The future of software may depend on it.
--Reason is a tool. Try to remember where you left it.--
I agree with you completely. It is amazing how many people have been brainwashed to believe that programmers and artists have the 'right' to tell their customers what they can and can't do with a product they have paid for. Extracting royalties is extortion, plain and simple. currently copyright is a fashionable, legal, and sometimes very profitable way of enabling organized crime. Civil disobedience combined with Free Software is the way to reduce the impact of these unethical laws. It's amazing how this kind of debate usually goes. Supporters of intellectual property always repeatedly make the same logical mistakes. Even if you think copyright is a good idea, violating it is still something very very different from theft. Absolutely no monetary loss can be placed on such a violation because it is unknown whether the software would have been bought if it wasn't copied. Another logical mistake often made is that it has something to do with keeping your word or breaking a contract. Well I don't know about you, but I wasn't presented with any contract last time I bought a book. Nor will I accept that just because the cat jumped on the keyboard and pressed ENTER before I had a chance to read the EULA that I have sold my sole to microsoft. Copyright law says that the author controls duplication. This does not involve any contract or licensing. You don't need a license to read a book. You simply need permission to copy it. Same with software. While it is nice to get the author's permission before copying his work, If you were able to legally obtain a copy without SIGNING (not clicking) a nondisclosure agreement, it is obscene that legal action can be taken for using a copy machine or disk drive in the privacy of your own home, perhaps helping out some friends in the process.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
naturally, a lot of us remember the oldschool 1200/2400/14.4/28.8/faster/slower BBSes running anything from Renegade to Ob/2 to MBBS.. and a peaceful PD front with a warez access-on-a-username-basis filebase sections.. people were way paranoid. they'd almost have to meet you in person before they'd trust you to access their warez sections. the web "scene" is so concerned with making money in a lot of cases that they wouldn't dare keep it private. ohwell. long live oldschool.
"This most definately falls under the idea of cruel and unusual punishment"
I don't have a law degree, but in order for it to be unconstitutional doesn't it have to be both cruel and unusual at the same time? There be nothing cruel or unusual in this instance.
yeh.. i know exactly what you mean. i'm an internet pirate, and people confuse me with a "software pirate" all the time.
Some of you may not totally understand what being an internet pirate entails, but it's actually quite simple; i portscan up alongside their packet stream, slam a plank with exposed nails onto their IP adress so they can't get away, then board the computer and take any gold or women who may be on the hard drive. Then as i leave i set their CPU to overclock itself, so it bursts into flames destroying the victim and any knowledge of my crime. If someone never gets home, everyone just assumes a storm got them.
I try to stay away from any heavily armed script kiddies; i just go after the defenseless windows users without any DOS cannons, and i have yet to have any problems. The Cservice Navy may be looking for me, but they'll never find me. Although i now have a peg leg since i got my real leg bitten off in an attack by a viscious Ping of Death several years ago..
arr, me mateys!
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
THis is comparable to organising a car theft ring. This guy didn't pirate one package, he was the "pirate king". The amount of software pirated from his site vastly outwieghs the cost of a car.
We all know there is no true justice in this country. 10 basic rights for human beings here in the us? Not likely. They'll fuck you over by the wording of the bill of rights. The gov can send shuttles carrying tons of plutonium into space risking our lives if the shuttle crashes/blows up (as they have in the past, mind you) and the guy copying games from his friend is the criminal? Dont get me wrong, i LIKE america, the best place around, but this government is fucked up. OH and need I not mention the fact that if a gov is not doing us justice fairly we can overthrow it? Is that a joke? You try raising anything and the fucking feds will slice your throat with a fucking spoon. Sorry if i rambled. antisos
The scarcity of their skills obviously determines their pay. However, if there is an oversupply of programmers, people capable enough to become programmers will enter other career paths, since they are capable of learning other skills. In this sense, the numbers of programmers in the industry is self regulating.
Your post seems to presume that a programmer's wage is calculated as some proportion of his or her company's profit. That is rare compared to the main thing that happens, *especially* in the software industry: profit margins are high, and those profits circulate in the hands of a relatively small group of investors.
The programmers pay will be proportional to the market value of his labour ( if it wasn't, he could leave and found his own company, which some programmers actually do ) The profits aren't kept to the investors - the programmers typically get equity in their company as part of their package deal. Of course the profit is shared between others, but to say that a programmers pay is not proportional to the market value of their work is absurd.
Not quite. A lot of companies include stock options as part of the employees package.
only what the market will bear for the talent they need
And presumabely, if their software brings more money to the table, the market will bear more for their services.
OUR GOVERNMENT IS BECOMING FASCIST! We must fight this! Felonly? for breaking copyright laws? Make shure you pay for your shareware.
So this is a little off topic.
Some individuals I've spoken to, which run pirate or warez sites like that guy, all give me the same crap as an excuse: "D00D, those companies charge too much for the games, they shouldnt be able to do that! We're just fighting the power, man!"
I ask of you, how the hell are they supposed to make a living? You want them to sell you games and such cheaper, and lighten your burden of paying for a LUXURY by losing his hard earned money? Write your own damned games and you'll see how easy it is ( sarcasm ) . Don't give me that freedom of information crap, what about the freedom to make a f****** living?
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Please note that the coward who posted this is a complete moron who should really look up the meaning of a word before he throws it out the net. I am guessing here, but I'll bet my linux distribution that this guy probably gets a government grant to go to school, a government handout to help with his rent, unemployment benifits, AND belongs to every anti-government group on his politically correct college campus. God I hate it when people try to use scary sounding words in interesting ways to grab the attention of those morons willing enough to listen because, jeez, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about! Bite me, and quit pretending to be passionate about something you are obviously judging by the headlines.
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
I guess that all the mp3 and vcd pirates out there on the net don't feel so invincible anymore. From the way I interpreted the story, this guy who was caught was just a regular guy like everyone else doing what a lot of us... ahem, YOU... do regularly. It seems harmless to host an ftp server with a couple hundred mp3's on it until someone gets fleeced for doing it. The worst part is that many of us justify such behavior by saying that the corporations are ripping us off and that the artists benefit rather than lose out. But none of those excuses are going to save this guy from what looks like a hefty fine and possibly jail time. What's this guy gonna tell job interviewers in the future... "it was just an mp3 server?"
Most of our selves, friends, and parents have violated software licenses in some way or other during our lives. Does the justice department think that all of our friends and families should be in jail or working off giant fines?
I would check your plea agreement, sir.. in many cases it is illegal to discuss the terms/conditions of your plea agreement before sentencing. While I don't support what you did, I think it'd be rather stupid to get your ass in more trouble :) Just wait, and let the time come for you to speak later. Mags
Nothing's changed then. The end result is the same for everyone but the pirate whether they didn't buy it or they pirated it, so what's the difference?
Oh wait.. It's "morals" kicking in again, right... The problem is that most people have been screwed around by government and large companies (where it is considered "legal") and take a perverse pleasure in a little revenge by sticking it back to these same people.
Making examples out of criminals is A Good Thing, because there is always a decent amount of people who won't try the same thing, for fear that the same punishment will happen to them.
If you're afraid that you might be one of the few unlucky ones of which a prosecutor/judge/jury decides to make an example, here's a hint: Don't break the fucking law.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
This is your first error. Software is a service, not a good. The fact that software is a service rather than a commodity doesn't make it worthless.
We may question how the developer arrived at the price, but the decision is ultimately up to the guy(s) who created $(PRODUCT). Therefore, the price assigned to $(PRODUCT) is arbitrary and has nothing whatsoever to do with its development costs.
This would be true if the developer lived in a vacuum, but they don't. The market value of $PRODUCT is determined by many factors, cost of production being one of them. Competition gaurantees that there is *SOME* relationship between cost of development and shelf price.
So, how stupid do you have to be before you stand there proclaiming that you have an inalienable right to expect people won't copy your stuff, when the medium is fundamentally designed to behave otherwise?
Perhaps because it's unethical and illegal ? Just as it is unethical to use any service that you are not prepared to pay for.
Okay, say you don't buy that line of reasoning. Try this out: If I take away your $(PRODUCT), I have deprived you of the ability to exchange it for the price you have assigned it. (This is true whether I purchased it from you or shoplifted it; the end result is that you don't have it anymore.) If I make a copy of your $(PRODUCT), you still have the original. You still have the ability to exchange it for your chosen price.
Wrong. You have taken the developer for a ride and not payed for it. It's analagous to not aying for your rides at the circus, or not paying your whore. You took the ride, so you should pay the person who provided the service to you their due.
Making copies of things, no matter what they may be, is not theft. Period, end of chapter.
Again, I dispute this. You are attempting to argue that services do not have value -- that only goods have value. Because by your logic, no service has any value ( even after you take the service, others are free to use it and pay for it )
In the worst case you describe, stealing a car amounts to a writeoff (say, $20,000), and a "big hassle" for one person.
Stealing software may seem more indirect, but it can have much wider ranging impacts. There are literally billions of dollars stolen per year in this manner - just because the impact is spread over many people (i.e. the programmers who wrote it who are losing $$$ out of their pocket), doesn't make it better. Hey, the impact of the $20,000 writeoff (assuming its insured, and the insurance company has to pay for it) is only 2 cents for each of the million or so clients of that insurance company. So, by your logic, its really no worse than stealing a mojo from all of 'em.
A single website or FTP site can result in 1000's of illegal downloads, so it would be pretty easy to exceed the cost of a single car theft by an order of magnitude.
Slashdot is entertaining like pro wrestling is entertaining
This should be a misdemeanor at best... The only reason it's a felony is these huge corporate pigs cry like babies to the law-makers that they were screwed hard by the pirates and laws need to be made or they won't bribe as high. Meanwhile, the real story is that they lost a couple of bucks and are still riding their corporate limos back to their million dollar mansions for a good laugh while the pirate in question probably lives in his parent's basement or in a low to mid-price apartment. So yeah, I feel *REAL* sorry for those assholes who lost a few bucks while the pirate-bad-guy winds up getting sentences which rival that of murderers and rapists. And people like you support this, simply because "it's the law"... Where's the priority in this system!? It's in the hands of the money makers that's where it is.. If the law demanded that you give your child up for sacrifice 5 years after birth, you mindless sheep would probably still follow it.
Excellent arguements! Those are definitely points that are overlooked and ignored! I can't agree with you more... Not everyone "pirates" so those companies do get some sales and make their smelly profits.
It is still perfectly legal to share your software with friends as long as... 1) You don't retain a hard copy 2) You don't have it on two computers at once. My friends and I do this a lot. Friend A buys the game.. beats it.... gives to me. I play beat it, give to friend C. At the same time friend A bought the game, friend C has bought a different game. By the time Friend C finishes his game, he is getting the other game from me. You see.. this way we always have new games, and we are not pirating. Works great.
This most definately falls under the idea of cruel and unusual punishment. You distribute $2500 worth of software, and get 3 years in the slammer? Which, by the way, costs the TAXPAYERS about $100,000 to house that person for that amount of time.
You're telling me the punishment is 100x worse than the "crime" committed? That's what it sounds like here - $250,000 / $2500 = 100.
Not only does it fall under the category of unusual, but it's also cruel. This poor kid has no way to make $250,000. He's fresh out of college, and wet behind the years. Kevin Mitnick, who the government claimed caused millions in damage was fined about $5,000 based on his projected earnings. What do you think this kid will get?
This kind of legislation needs to be repealed because it is a clear and present danger to a very important national resource - people. I don't know of a computer geek that doesn't have a harddrive full of MP3s and an illegal copy of windows. What are we going to to - arrest the whole country?
Lastly: Legislators, what were you smoking to pass this law?
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This has probably been said a thousand time here on slashdot in the past 5 minutes, but anyways -
First consider a soft product - such as software, movies, music - basically any product that has an up-front cost, but little production cost, also often very easily pirated. This is not cars or washing machines, whose price includes parts, labour, risk, transportation and storage costs. The lowest price one ( perhaps crazy individual) would price a car at is at a level to recoup the cost of production and such. Market forces dictate the profit level one adds to the base figure. However, with soft-products, the base price is basically zero. One prices the soft-product at a level to maximize revenue. Hopefully you recoup development costs and make a profit. This of course is in no way guarantee this happening. If one prices the product too low it sells well, but one does not recoup cost. Too high and nobody purchase the thing, and they probably end up pirating it.
Now given that typical markets for soft products have a fairly large demographic, one will have some purchsing the product, and others pirating it. Some of those pirates you do not want, some are irrelevant - they would never purchase the product anyway, and others, well you want them pirating your product. The first group includes the types who pirate, impersonate you and sell. The consumer is ripped off by these guys and nobody wins ( except the pirates ). The consumer thinks they are getting a genuine you product, which may be of shoddy quality, tarnishing your company, and you get no money! The second group are the script kiddies trading your cray complier tools just because they can - they are never going to use your product, and they are never going to buy it. The third group is the group that supports the shareware industry- people who can not afford you product, but someday will. Say student X pirates a copy of Y, which X can not afford, or has no real use at the time, and playing with Y learning the interface and so forth. A few years later X gets a job where prouct Y has some relance - X buys Y because X has learnt Y and not P, Q or R. Of course each group will be of different size and importance depending on the soft-product. The final group is of course the mp3.com/shareware/test drive group of life. So my point? If you hae a company you should only really care about group one - they are the types eating _your_ dinner.
> In some sense, the piraters are taking a free
> ride (it's comparable to sneaking into the
> cinema without paying ).
Thank you! That is one of the best metaphors I've seen for copying software without a license that permits you to copy it. It's not like stealing a car. You're "not supposed" to do it and it can be illegal, but nobody really loses money or property -- they just never get your money in the first place. Of course, a movie theater might be crowded and a sneaker might take a paying customer's good seat, but running software on your own computer is like bringing your own seat with you.
Theaters would eventually go out of business if most people started sneaking in -- actually they'd probably get guards -- but a few people doing it doesn't cause a significant problem. And anyone who sees a movie and likes it a lot is likely to tell their friends (most of whom will just PAY for their tickets) about it. It's arguably a good idea to have a "no-sneaking" policy which is not rigidly enforced (no guards, but an occasional inquisitive usher and obvious signs -- sort of like putting serial numbers with checksums in your installer) as opposed to taking extreme measures to ensure that potential patrons don't sneak.
If you run a movie theater or a software company, I don't think you need to have sneakers thrown in jail to make an example of them. Or even the guy that held open the back door for them. Just slap 'em on the wrist and keep an eye on them in the future. They are simply NOT a big problem.
The fact that software is a service rather than a commodity doesn't make it worthless
How many other "services" do you know of that are, in effect, infinite? Software is really an in between product, totally different than any other product we have dealt with. It *does* have a physical form, but only because E=mc^2. It can be copied "infinitely" for almost no cost. That fits with no other known product. It has been sold and protected as if it were a toaster and now the ridiculousness of that idea is becoming obvious.
"Service" is when I call tech support and someone takes the TIME to help me. When someone has to do something to help me. The previous effort that has gone into building software, because of softwares infinite nature, is worth nothing. (Finite/Infinite = 0) The "new" work required to handle specific problems or tasks can be billed on an hour by hour or instance by instance basis. As a matter of fact, wider distribution would allow the infinite nature of the product to tremendously increase the amount of service required to keep it running. Thats where the money in software is. Or should be, if you look at it objecively.
Taking that away pretty much causes all your other arguments to collapse, so I'll leave it at that.
+&x
People who actually do the stealing, and who actively distribute the ill-gotten gains, are prosecuted more harshly that someone who happens to be in possession of something stolen (they may not even know it). Also, people who do it a lot, are prosecuted more harshly than people who do it once.
So, in answer to your question: its a matter of degree. If you, or your "friends and families", are enabling thousands of people to help themselves to hundreds of different illegally obtained software titles (by hosting an FTP site for it all), you should be in jail or working off a giant fine.
Slashdot is entertaining like pro wrestling is entertaining
hey bud - i got one damn question for you - do you have any unregistered shareware on your computer at this minute? You goddam CRIMINAL!!
The law saying you have to pay for your shareware is the same as the law saying you can't give out free versions of copyrighted programs.
Do i pay for shareware? Hell no, i'm a criminal. Come and break down my door and have a trial and put me in jail at the taxpayer's expense for that $50 of unregistered software. Go ahead. But make sure you arrest EVERYONE who breaks the law. THAT INCLUDES THOSE OF YOU WHO TAPE MOVIES YOU RENT FROM BLOCKBUSTER!!! AND YOU PEOPLE WHO COPY AN ALBUM FOR A FRIEND. WE ARE ALL DEFINED AS CRIMINALS! OF COURSE THIS INCLUDES EVERYONE IN THE US!!!!
There are a lot of good arguments, on both sides. I have pirated software before. not to the point where i was costing the business millions of dollars (or even thousands), or running k-rad 0day ftp sites, but I look at it like this: say I really want to get into the CAD field, and a copy of AutoCAD is, let's say too much. Why should I be deprived of learning that piece of software because I can't afford it. I realize there are alternatives, some times free, but what it comes down to, is the fact that a lot of software designers put a really high price tag on their software. Especially when there's a team of designers, so the work is even distributed. I think if software prices went down, piracy would drop a lot. I know, if I saw the latest video game for $10 or $15 dollars, i would probably buy it, cause it's nice to have the media there, incase you need to reinstall. im sure a lot more people would buy their software too, so it would kind of even out... they really need to do their research and find a happy medium.
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http://balambiris.ne.mediaone.net
First off, he did do a criminal (and stupid) thing with that webpage, so he should go to jail. But not for friggen ever. Personally, I think piracy is ok, as long as you buy a few products.
First off, most programs cannot be demo'd. So, what should I do? Just look at the box and the web-site and make a GUESS if spending 200$ on the software will fit my needs. No, I download, if I end up using it, I pay them.
For those of you comparing stealing software to stealing a car:
You can test drive the car.
FunOne
FunOne
We have had copyright laws for years.
I'll bet I can find an illegal copy of something in 80% of american homes. It may just be a copy of "Lethal Weapon" that your friend copied for you, or a "Twisted Sister" tape you dubbed from your big brother years ago. But they are illegal.
Now the story i want to see isn't about some kid getting arrested for pirating software - there are so many toxic anti-youth memes floating around our society that people don't judge the story objectively. Imagine this case: 72 year old grandmother busted for illegal collection of 'Golden Girls' tapes. How would people react to this story? Imagine that nobody has ever been in trouble for illegal copies of videotapes. And then the feds (it's an interstate issue because she got the tapes from her sister in Illinois, a part of the "ring" the authorities hope to crack) kick in her door and haul her ass to jail.
Now, how many "It's illegal, the old bitch got what she deserved" kind of comments would follow that story? Remember, it's still a violation of copyright law, and the person is undeniably guilty. Why, she watched the FBI warning every time she popped in an illegal copy of Blanche's escapades!
The point of all the 'cruel and unusual' comments is simply this - nobody has ever been charged with the crime even though government officials can access mp3/warez sites as easily s anyone else, so any punishment is unusual. This is another example of a larger problem - laws that aren't generally enforced but which can be enforced whenever the gov't decides to take someone down.
For example, premarital sex is illegal in the District of Columbia. So if a cop felt like busting a drug dealer but he didn't have any legally admissable evidence, he could just wait around the guy's place until he hears the guy making out with his girlfriend. Boom, probable cause to believe a crime, sex, was taking place. Bust into the place, find drugs, send the guy to jail forever, drop charges against the girl.
Now with this law, if the gov't decides that they think you might be a part of some big bad hacker or child porn group, but they don't have any evidence, if you have a site that distributes aretha frnaklin mp3s (cuz you love aretha and sharing her with others is the only good thing you do) they can bust in, charge you, and seize all your computer equipment to look for other stuff.
Since this is a systemically violated law, until i see about 40,000 more arrests i will believe it be just another tool for the gov't to break into your private material whenever the whim hits them.
You are, of course, making one crucial and potentially invalid assumption... that all of the people who pirate the software would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it. In fact, a large proportion of them would just do without, and so the copies they steal don't cut into the software company's sales. Keep that in mind the next time you hear a supposed estimate of the costs of piracy.
--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
Thank you for your excellent post.
What needs to be done is that new copyright laws need to be devised in light of technological changes.
All of these problems are due to the fact that we are trying to use 18th century property laws in what is about to be the 21st century. These laws worked fine for products like a bucket of grain, or a cart, or even a book. They dont work when the product is a collection of computer code.
The matter duplicator is an excellent example! If i had one, what would happen to the price of the mona lisa once i copied it? These laws do not adequately address duplicable objects, whether real or vitual.
I have opinions on the subject, but arguments should be held back until they convene a commission to come up with new copyright laws. And just so no one forgets - we're a democracy, not a free market. We can pass any damn law we want to, whether it helps the software companies or whether it drives every damn one of them out of business because we decide our right to copy is more important than their 'right' to force you to sign a legally binding contract to access the software that you HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR.
There is no other industry where you could purchase a product and then be denied use of it. If I bought a pig to eat and as i left the store the butcher came running up behind me to force me to sign a contract saying that i wouldn't let any of my friends have some pig (even after i was full), i would punch him in the nose! You have already purchased the product when you leave the store. The question is - do you own it? If i ripped it out of your hand most would consider it theft. But what was stolen? An opportunity to enter into a binding contract for a service? Can you sell an opportunity?
first off you're stupid, i have no sympathy for you
breach of contract is a civil offence, not criminal
violating copyright laws is a civil offence, not criminal
he didn't fucking steal anything. he violated two rules, which we already have procedures for dealing with. The issue isn't the kid, it's the law
The worst case fine is $250,000. The best case damage done is $2,500. You could just as easily argue that $250,000 in damage was done (hey we don't know how many millions of people got his stuff yet, do we?), and that he might only get a $2,500 slap on the wrist. Hardly seems fair that the punishment is only 1% of the crime.
Slashdot is entertaining like pro wrestling is entertaining
>The problem -- the people they are prosecuting --
are the people who run the pirate servers.
if you make something i do illegal there should be some effort to prosecute me, shouldn't there? what if you apply this 'its ok because theyre not targeting home users, theyre just going after big-time guys' to murder? 'Well, you just killed one person so we're not gonna bother. Call us if you found a death cult.'
don't ever use the well they won't really apply this law reasoning to justify a law. if it can't be universally applied (due to economics or desire) then it shouldn't be a law. we already have civil laws against copyright infringement and breach of contract, we have no need for a criminal law that just rolls two civil crimes up together and says that the result is a felony.
I just wish the feds would start after the lame-o IRC packet kiddies next. They probably cost ISP's and network providers more money with their smurf attacks and whatever other DoS/flood of the week than the copyright holders of those movies and songs lost as a result of FTP sites like this...
loser is illiterate
did you somehow miss the posts from the accused explaining that he did not distribute files off of a web page?
or let me guess, you just skipped all the reading part and just posted your spew straight away, huh?
Whenever the ISDA releases a report saying piracy has cost the industry $400 billion in sales or whatever. It is bogus. Piracy isn't like stealing a car where one can say the stolen car was a loss of $20,000. If piracy didn't exist, college kids wouldn't throw up there arms and say, "oh well, now I have to buy 3dsmax". Software piracy IMHO is more important on the unknowing level. I've talked to many business owners who don't know its a crime when they take their office 2000 CD and install it everywhere. One business with 100 copies of office 2000 with one license is where the real piracy is. Because that company would actually BUY 100 copies because they have the money and it isn't just a pirate thing.
MP3s are different. I know many people who just download MP3s to have them, (I doubt anybody could ever listen to about 5000 hours evenly) and I am not sure how many CDs are actually not purchased because an MP3 was available.
Downloaded movies are an awkward piracy issue. I personally believe that most people who want to watch a movie will go to the theater to really see the movie. Even if it is available on some site. They are just so crappy, so large, and so bad. I don't think any real sales are being hurt by downloaded MPEGs. Pressed VCDs in Taiwan are a different issue though.
Just my thoughts on the actual situation of software piracy.
The law specifies a MAXIMUM punishment an offender should receive. That does NOT mean he will receive the full fine/prison sentence. He'll probably be fined a modest amount and placed on probation.
I bid and won copies (the real disks, with manuals) of both RayDream Studio and Poser (4 and 2, respectively). Now, with OSS, I can get a resonable - or even expect to find - a resonable alternative to RDS4. Worse case scenario, I can go with POV (I say worse case, because it is a Ray Tracer, not a Modeler - sometimes you just want a modeler). Heck - I think I could even stand a chance at coding a smaller modeler myself...
But what about Poser? There is _NOTHING_ comparable to this on the OSS market that I am aware of - mainly due to the reason that it costs big bucks to get a human model - period (on the order of $10,000 (US) or so). I have heard that there is a new company offering lower cost human figures (at around $1000), but this is still expensive, and you would still need to find a way to pose the things coming out of it. Can anyone recommend an alternative?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
took software for free that cost money to produce.
its stealing, the issue is people not thinking its stealing.
-I go to Rice, so figure out my email address
Things are so much more complicated... There are copyrights, and there are laws, but they always dont take things into account...
Current laws work best with material things. If I take something someone else doesnt have it, cause I have took it from them.
Computers (music as well) laws arent as simple.
If I take something from someone, he doesnt loose it. But it hurts the manufactureres. Also if I buy a car I am allowed to do some modifications to it. With computer games you never know how much modifications you can do legally and which not.
How? what if I do a mod to a game so I dont need a cd to play a game, so I can listen to music from my audio cd while playing some new game?.. Can I release this mod on the net? what if I do a mod for quake that adds new levels? or patch a binary file to fix a bug?
but this isnt about piracy, one might argue, but isnt it about laws? Yes... and laws are inadequate.
If 10 pieces of software total 2500$... newest 3d studio was around 4000$ (back when v4 was out for dos)...
How many can afford this? is it good reasoning that if one copied it he would otherwise buy it?
(recently this problem has been noticed by SOME companies which release either dumbed down, OEMs, Student versions cheaper, but its very few)
Another big issue which pirate people like to touch, as well as many game developers is delpoyment.. The higher user base the more interuser support...
If every friend plays a given game, you will want also, so there is a bigger chance you will buy the game.. Quake would be no fun if there was 1/10th of deathmatch users there is...
Also notice that the underground scene is also often computer literate (well, you need to learn irc, ftp, ratios, fserve, scripts, zips, rars, ace,sfv, md5, iso, rip, nfo, nukes, dupes and other words)... Who would you think would do an addon/mod/map to a game? a newbie or scener (or atleast better quality)...
I vaguelly remember (so it might be rumor) but I think Carmack once said that thanks to the better security he developed no one was able to get Quake2 pirated for the first week or two of the release, and that boosted their sales. conclusion?
1. piracy sucks...
2. piracy allows you to play a game that otherwise you wouldnt.. I play one game once a month.. see how far I do in a crazy weekend of gaming and then peace... sometimes I only curse games as there are better coding projects to do..
3. Piracy hurts the smallest the most, but its the big that cry.. Big will sell their products.. Starcraft sill #1 in sales, a year after... thsi is a point who say games are too expensive.. they dont buy the cheaper games (from smaller firms) but go after the warez..
4. ISOs copiers and the ppl who sell warez to others are the biggest loosers and should burn in hell... Personal RIPs to try a game are fine by me..
5. I admit that there should be still SPA/Faction to state that RIPs haveto be released at least a month after release of the original game... this way ppl who cant wait for a game will buy the game, not go to the scene.. (ie: you can get C&C for last 3 days... the game is not to be out for another 10 days in the stores..)
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ps1: due to a recent EA bust on their employees they caught 12 pirates... so expect more news like that.. read some news at www.churchi.com
ps2: moderators please mark the other one down as it didnt come out the way I wanted it to do.. no formatting
another good reason to use free OSS software. why pirate when you can code ?
Well, many companies tend to pay bonus to workers if they are doing good. For example every employee in the company I am working received 5% bonus for last year (which was very nice :-). We are expecting similar bonus for this year, which of course encourages us to stay and to work well enough that the company does as well this year.
I'm not "applauding" it because "it's the law". I'm applauding the law because it seems quite fair.
Just because a company has money means it shouldn't defend its rights and property? I hope like hell that such a law is in place if I ever copyright something I create and some stupid kid starts pirating it.
So what if this kid lives in his parent's basement or whatever crappy apartment. He's still breaking the law and distributing hundreds of megabytes of data illegally.
And who ever said his sentence rivals that of murderers and rapists. The law simply puts a cap on the maximum amount of punishment allowed for the crime. Nobody ever said his actual sentence would even be REMOTELY near that cap. As I said earlier, he'll probably be fined modestly and put on probation for a while.
If you have a problem with a law, WRITE A FUCKING LETTER. Stop whining on slashdot about how us "mindless sheep" (ha!) go praising laws because they are laws. Get a clue. Think for yourself, and more importantly, ACT.
Golly, I hope Katz has something to say about this.
I don't know what they are talking about losses...
Piracy isn't necessarily a good thing, or a bad thing. It is if it's done by a company for profit-making reasons.
Individuals downloading and using illegal software isn't exactly good, but it isn't totally bad either. (stick with me, I know you can)
I, personally have used 3dsmax. I can't afford the $1000+ educational license, much less the $6000+ commercial license. If I had not gotten it from *elsewhere*, I would never have been able to try such an amazing tool for MANY years. My machine can barely run it (Win98. so sue me.).
I wouldn't buy this software. I can't. But what I have done is tried it, and I like it. I like it a LOT. Now I will never use this copy for commercial purposes (NEVER. If I had to use this for commercial purposes, I would get it legitimately!!! And like legit software I have bought, it will probably just sit here unused for a LONG time). But I would reccomend this software to companies. I also know how to use it now. So what they have gained is a) a person who knows how to use it and would gladly reccomend it be purchased, and b) potential future customers. At no loss to them. Why no loss? Like I said. I would never have been able to afford it.
I personally would be more worried about companies pirating software, which is where a lot of damage could come from. IE: X software is given to 1000 people to be used in a fairly profitable business. That's a LOT of money.
Now some of you out there may hate my guts. Some may agree. Please don't spew venom at me. Just my opinion.
I forgot to mention that almost all of my legit software is games, THE most highly pirated software out there.
Did you know that Hitler was a pioneer of gun control? Now that makes our gov't look fascist, doesn't it.
this guy wasn't arrested for "internet piracy" - pirating an internet connection, he as arrested for software piracy over the internet.
:)
big difference. kids have been pirating stuff for years, but if a kid got arrested for pirating internet access, that would interest me.
I bet that the Software Publishers Association is happy with this.
Any bets on whether this makes the prosecutor's career or not?
These are the people we need to convert!
I used to be a software "warez" hunter. At one time I bet I had $20,000 worth of software I shouldn't have had. I was addicted, but I also did it because I couldn't afford the software I needed. It isn't right to steal, but I can see why some do.
Now that I have taught myself to use Linux and other Linux-like operating systems such as Unix, I leverage the rich selection of free software. No more guilt. No more breaking the law. And, the free-source *nix stuff is actually better than that other stuff I was using before anyway.
Many thanks to all the coders providing us with the free stuff. I don't steal any more because I don't have to.
-=-=-=-=- osjedi uses Debian GNU/Linux. -=-=-=-=-
Your argument is defunct. People that steal cars would have never bought one to begin with, because they can steal them. People that pirate software don't buy the software because they know they can pirate it.
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
I read somewhere that Electronic Arts' gross profit for the past fiscal year was something like $600 million. MS's profit was in the billions. While I'm sure that there are plenty of small software houses that get hit pretty hard by piracy, I don't doubt that a lot of folks see these numbers and it eases their consciences somehow.
With "intellectual property" we citizens must be disciplined severely when we make the confusion of buying a product and thinking it is actually "ours" (like software licenses and genetically modified corn) or mistakingly thinking you can put whatever you want on your web site. We will foot the bill for the trial and incarceration while corpoations reap the benfit of having a cowed populace. It will really be time to worry when the first person is convicted for using a patented catch phrase.
I'm outta here (tm)
the scariest thing of all is how many of you could easily have been that person that was caught. i mean, there are right and wrong ways to go about warez, and this kid obviously wasn't to much in the know, but this _does_ hit close to home (and i'd imagine for a lot of you).
...
who knows what kind of silly stuff we all did when we were young and foolish in terms of where we stored our bits and where they passed through. who knows what logs are still around.
i personally can say that warez don't excite me in the slightest anymore and that nothing on my computer _now_ is illegal, but
what we _really_ need is someone who actually knows the law to make it very clear how to protect yourself. someone who makes it clear what's entrapment, who clears up the 24 hour (bullsh*t) rule, and who can elaborate on the penalties and where the line is drawn. i for one would have liked to know, rather than cockily guessed, what would and would not have gotten me in trouble. perhaps something like this can save some poor kids who are making big mistakes before they realize what they are doing.
if bill gates were 15 now he would certainly pirate software.
It will be interesting to see how this affects
the pirate community. If they are clued in
enough to notice this news I imagine it will get
quite a bit tougher to get WaReZ and movies and
such. Heck the cops just need to go to oth.com
to bust hundreds of people. Most things would
probably move to private ftp sites that require
user/passwd's and addresses will get passed
around via private channels on irc, icq..etc.
Its just so open right now.. oth.com.. web
searches to get movies, irc dcc servers
advertising in the open channel..etc.
I will admit I have snagged a few things in
my time, but I have also gone to see them/bought
them as well. I basically grabbed them
as a novelty or to try them out.
There are literally millions of cars stolen per year. And they cost $20000, when the average software (single user) license costs much less.
Don't compare ONE car to ALL software stolen per year.
Or they pirate it because mommy and daddy won't buy it for them.
---
In the worst case you describe, stealing a car amounts to a writeoff (say, $20,000), and a "big hassle" for one person.
---
And at most, 'stealing' software that I wouldn't have purchased anyhow means a $50 loss - I'm sorry, un-gain - for a software company.
Maybe a few hundred more, for Photoshop or something.
---
A single website or FTP site can result in 1000's of illegal downloads, so it would be pretty easy to exceed the cost of a single car theft by an order of magnitude.
---
True. Then again, that's assuming that if that website did not exist, those pieces of software would have been legally purchased. Most people who pirate I would tend to believe are teenaged boys who don't have the financial resources to buy Photoshop 5.5 or whatever. That may not necessarily mean it's ethical, but it's still VERY hard to place a 'damage' value on an intangible un-purchase.
I'm not exactly seeing programmers sleeping out in the streets, either.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
- Jeff
Sooner or later possession of pirated software is going to be treated like narcotics possession, if the SPA gets their way. Then we'll see what you have to say.
The No Electronic Theft Act is unfair. It criminalizes sharing lawfully aquired works with your friends in ways that were previously legal -- simply because a computer is involved.
Defunct?
Oh yah? Well your argument is deleted.. urm deactivated.. no wait... ah never mind.
Did you already forget a car is not information?
Put down that crack pipe, sonny.
The whole argument is moot. Shut down all the morons stupid enough to run public web sites. It won't make any real difference. The cat is out of the bag, boys. Its just bits; put your pants back on and take a deep breath.
Every few years a company gets it for putting single user license programs across their company. I've seen a few here in Canada, and seen on CNN a few in the states.
Of course, a company can afford big lawyers. A college pirate can't.
please?
Juln
---
Your argument is defunct. People that steal cars would have never bought one to begin with, because they can steal them. People that pirate software don't buy the software because they know they can pirate it.
---
I walk because I know I can. You state an obvious truth, but it doesn't really mean anything (please don't take offense - read over your reply and ask yourself what it means).
Although I'm not sure the metaphor sticks, it could also be said that a pirate is a person who looks at your car and builds his own exact replica - VERY quickly and with very little effort. Your car sits parked, unharmed. You may not even know it happened. Would you prosecute someone who knew how to make an exact copy of your car because they didn't instead want to buy yours?
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
- Jeff
A lot of the packet kiddies are working off of systems that the have BO'ed in the past. Tracing things back often only goes as far as the compromised system, where the ping flooding program or whatever is, and is pretty untraceable beyond that due to lack of logs of people clueless about security.
To those of you who have played games like Starcraft and Half-Life, each game has a unique serial number, which can only be used at one time; that is, you cannot use two copies of that serial number at the same time. I like this copy protection method, especially as games are becoming more and more oriented to multiplayer gaming.
I think that a good way to keep cash inflow for developing companies of games (the most pirated type of software) give their client software away for free, with maybe a limited single player mode to demonstrate the game, then sell people accounts on their multi-player gaming servers. Since the same account cannot be used simultaneously, and you can't really pirate an account, they will be fairly safe of getting their costs, and more, back.
This is kind of like the shareware method, and the opposite of what is currently being employed in games like C&C, Starcraft and Quake 2. The multiplayer gaming is free, but you have to pay for the software. If they sold multiplayer accounts, and allowed the software be distributed for free, they're get a much larger return. And with electronic transactions developing, this is becoming more and more of a better way to go.
As long as the software companies have secure server software and good password schemes, they should be able to get a good amount of money back. This method, i think, will work especially well on multiplayer games, but on other games that focus on single-player modes, will have to find other ways.
You could go into a store and purchase the software package, which comes with a CD, a manual, and a multiplayer account. Or you can download the software for free from their website, and purchase an account online.
Not only does it fall under the category of unusual, but it's also cruel.
I don't know how you think criminals are usually punnished, but fines and/or jail time certainly isn't unusual, it's quite usual. Is it cruel? Well, maybe I should have used the argument that a fine was cruel to get out of my last speeding ticket. If your point was that fining someone for more damage than they did was cruel and unusual, you are wrong there as well. Fines, or punnishments for that matter, are meant to cost you more than you would gain from a crime because they are meant to deter people from the crime. Most states have littering laws of several hundred dollars. does dropping a can on the ground do several hundred dollars of damage? Does it costs hundreds of dollars to hire someone to pick the can up? No, but most people will think twice about littering if they know they can be fined hundreds of dollars, set the fine to ten cents, or however much it actually costs to clean up a can or a discarded piece of paper and you'll find that litter increases dramatically. If you steal $1,000 from someone (I'm not attempting to make a direct correlation between stealing from someone and piracy) your punnishment will probably be more severe than a $1,000 fine. If cheating on a test gives you 15 points that you would not have gotten without cheating, your school will probably punnish you in a much more severe manner than simply deducting 15 points from your score (assuming you're in college, grade schools don't seem to care much about cheating).
Yeah, who cares about how serious the topic is, just as long as I can make an ass out of myself.
Of course, most OSS software is free for a more fundamental reason: compared to other software, it's crap that nobody would actually shell out money for.
And no, I didn't say all of it -- there are some things like Sendmail, perl, and Apache that some people would happily pay for if they had to.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
This comment should be archived (if that is the right word) and sent to http://www.gnu.org for posting there -- they like this sort of thing.
John
John_Chalisque
this guy was obviously some lame warez rat
looks like he was just too fucking stupid for his own good. i have no sympathy for him
Theres something very odd about that story.
"digitally recorded movies", that part seems odd, we all know that downloading movies is a stupid idea, because they look terrible. If you want a movie bootleg, you nip down the local market and buy one.
Isn't it only the movie industry that moans about "digital pirates"?
Seems that someone may have made a deal in return for a press release that please's all involved.
F
'Course I owe my copies of compilers to teachers!
$1K should be enough of a fine.
I have to send my profferssors a thank you note. Granted they're were unaware of Linux/BSD. But hey, now I never visit a warez site AT ALL.
Guess why? ***** / ***.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Okay, everyone, get this through your skulls (and I say this as a professional software engineer of over 20 years experience):
Bitlegging is NOT theft.
The SPA has done an excellent job of getting people to misconceptualize the economic reality of digital media.
Let's decompose the economics of software development:
Substitute for the variable $(PRODUCT) any tangible object, like "washing machine." Once you have developed and built $(PRODUCT), it is yours to dispose of as you see fit. You may choose to sell it, or you may choose to give it away. We may question how the developer arrived at the price, but the decision is ultimately up to the guy(s) who created $(PRODUCT). Therefore, the price assigned to $(PRODUCT) is arbitrary and has nothing whatsoever to do with its development costs. The consequence of this is that there is no entitlement to recover development costs, since there is no direct rational connection between development costs and retail costs.
You may think that's specious, disingenuous, or even insane reasoning. Ordinarily, I might agree with you, except that there's a little concept of "reasonable expectation of return." If you put $10 on number 22 on the roulette wheel, do you realistically expect a return from that investment? Of course not; the odds are stacked against you. Same deal with spending a lot of money digging a hole in the ground: You may strike oil/gold/uranium, but more than likely you won't. (A lot of people are about to learn this lesson very harshly when the Internet stock boom falls apart.)
How do you mitigate against wasting your money? By doing research on your target investment. In this case, people heavily invested in software development have not done their homework. It is an incontrovertible fact that digital information -- software, images, sounds -- can be copied easily, and this fact is not about to change. That's what it was designed to do. So, how stupid do you have to be before you stand there proclaiming that you have an inalienable right to expect people won't copy your stuff, when the medium is fundamentally designed to behave otherwise?
Okay, say you don't buy that line of reasoning. Try this out:
Note that this is true no matter what the value of the variable $(PRODUCT) is. If I use a matter replicator to make a copy of your washing machine, you still have yours with which to clean your clothes. If I use a CD-ROM drive to make a copy of Quake, you can still play your original. Since you haven't been deprived of anything, you can't claim theft.
Final point:
Result: No sale.
Result: No sale.
Thus, the argument that bitlegging results in lost revenue largely falls apart, since the outcome of both situations is the same: No sale.
You may argue that you have lost "potential revenue," since your potential customer base has been reduced by the number of unsanctioned copies. Guess what: This isn't theft, either. Anyone who has held common stock in a public company knows that one of the hazards of stock ownership is a thing called "dilution." Dilution is what happens when the company issues more shares; the potential market for the shares you own is reduced. Nobody in the stock market labors under the delusion that this is "theft". And although a lot of people grumble about it when it happens, it's not even illegal (unless fraud is involved). Unsanctioned copying of software results in the same economic dynamic which, if you've done your homework, should not come as a surprise to anybody.
So, what have we established?
Now, you can make an ethical argument against copying software, and I would in fact, in large part, agree with you. But software publishers (and anyone else who can't think beyond their own pocketbook) are asking us to criminalize this activity.
Sorry, but that idea is rock-stupid. It's like passing a law forbidding gravity from applying to certain objects: it illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how the medium operates. Digital bits are and forever will be easily copied, and you must live in that reality, or you're just setting yourself up for one heck of an ulcer.
But that's not what irritates me most about this. No. It's the fact that they picked on a guy who had no hope of defending himself against the charges. The N.E.T. Act must have the SPA giggling with glee since, because of the way the law is written, they're never going to encounter a defendant who can actually put up a fight. Which, from their track record, is about par for the course for the SPA.
Start changing the way you think about this stuff, or you are all going to be serious fscked when matter replicators show up.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Bumperstickers, anyone?
It looks like another case where the Government and Industry are going to use this guy as a "example" for everyone else.
Many people in the government and industry have said the internet is in it's "Wild West" phase, and that has to change before the Media and content providers feel comfortable distributing their goods over the net.
Of course, that change demands a big change in the systems and software we use.
You mean I would get paid even more if it wasn't for those damned pirates? They would actually give me a raise and pay me 20% more if those "warez d00d$" were all stopped and locked away! Maybe you work for M.S Alpha Centaurie division, but all the companies I know of pay programmers strictly on cost/availability basis. How much they pay the slaves^H^H^H^H^H^Hworkers has nothing to do with how much profit they make, only what the market will bear for the talent they need. I've never heard of a company paying its workers only a percentage of profits, and if the company loses money the workers get paid less. It doesn't work that way in Capitolism. Otherwise we would all be working for the richest company on earth. Doohhh!!
--ac
Katz is correct in his assertion that the RIAA (the organization that represents the major labels) is trying desperately to take control of music distribution over the internet. He is also correct in implying that the MP3 music format is part of a revolution that could, if we play our cards right, topple over the stranglehold that the "big 5" have had on music distribution in the United States and all over the world.
Where he is entirely wrong, however, is in the assertion that the sites the RIAA are targeting are in any way associated with this new revolution.
Pirate music sites are nothing new, have been nothing new, and will be nothing new. Nothing that they do will ever have any appreciable effect on the music industry, and anyone who believes so is just buying into the RIAA's propaganda. The RIAA likes to use pirate sites as their straw man because they can't touch the real threat: the musicians and web sites that post MP3s of music that are 100% legal.
As a musician who posts his music on the internet in the MP3 format, I am much more of a threat to the RIAA than a ripped & encoded pirated copy of anything put out by Nine Inch Nails.
Sure, NIN is a lot more popular and well known than the Baptist Death Ray. Sure, NIN is sought after and will be downloaded more than the Baptist Death Ray. But the Baptist Death Ray and other artists with similar beliefs are setting up a dangerous precedent: that it's OK for the artist, not a record label, to decide who is allowed to download what music. And that the artist, not the record label, can take full responsibility of his/her product.
Of course, the RIAA can't force musicians to go to labels, can't force musicians to relinquish their rights to their music, so they claim they are trying to protect their artists from piracy. Bull. They are trying to protect the industry from the Baptist Death Ray, Bruce Satinover, Mickey Dean and his Talking Guitar, MadelynIris, and every other musician who willingly, of their own volition, and more importantly legally releases their music in the MP3 format for free download and distribution.
The RIAA has been targeting sites of pirated music and forcing the site maintainers to shut them down. Whoopee. What they can't do, and what will really bring them down if this takes off, is make me and my comerades-in-arms stop releasing music under the MP3 format.
Chris Wright
the Baptist Death Ray
I don't think this law will stand up at the supreme court level. The reason is that Piracy is not theft in the traditional sense. Piracy is a combination of two things: 1: Copyright infringement. 2: Breach of contract (liscense). Now, copyright infringement and breach of contract are both civil crimes. I don't see how a law can legally be enacted which makes something a felony for violating civil laws. Yes, the idiot is liable for civil damages for posting the items on his web site, but criminal? I don't think it will hold up. The premise of the act (as shown by it's name) is that copyright infringment is theft (which is criminal). If it were criminal, then why don't people that copy books at Kinko's get thrown in the slammer? Why don't people get convicted for posting scanned images from playboy on their sites? The premise seems to be that if you committ a gross enough civil infraction, it becomes criminal. What's next? Being thrown in the slammer for not paying your cable bill?
At the very end, they say what the law is, and how you can't distribute copyrighted works. Then, the Reuters copyright, saying how it can't be broadcast or redistributed. Then the ABC copyright, saying how it can't be broadcast or redistrubted. Now it seems to me that ABC is at least redistributing something marked as Reuters', and probably broadcasting it too. Both notices say that it can't be broadcast or published. Not rebroadcast or republished, broadcast or published. That says to me that ABC is violating its own copyright! If all this is legal somehow, they should probably make it clearer.
--
Seeing is believing; You wouldn't have seen it if you didn't believe it.
i hate giving these lame asses the attention they so desperately seek, but something has to be done about this first post bull shit! it makes me sick to see it.
how about caching the first 10 responses to a posting, and then putting those up in random order (or reverse order for that matter), immediately after the 10th one is submitted?
"People that steal cars would have never bought one to begin with..." HAHAHA, dumb argument. Cars are stolen by three types of people. The first is the "single use" people. Joy riders, bank robbers, drive by shooters. The second type steals cars for parts. Ever hear of a chop shop? The third type steals cars for resale in another place. More cars are stolen for those three reasons than any other. Software gets "stolen" by people who are going to *use* it, not break it up in parts to be sold separately, or any other reaason. And how much of the price of software is because of patent license fees?
Check the penalties for getting caught with a couple $10 rocks of cocaine with intent to distribute...
Now I don't know if they changed the law recently, but I do remember at one time the penalty for this was much worse than for an equivalent amount of powder cocaine.
Many groups felt this was racially biased because of the 'target audience' of each form of the drug.
Anyhow, getting back on track - my point is that unfair laws get passed in the U.S. all the time. But what we are really interested in here is the MINIMUM sentencing guideline. The max has to be high, just in case someone really did do that much damage.
- Speed
wtf? Hotline ruled back in '97 when it was only Mac users. Something like hotline or carracho works best if it's not very well known. Advertising on a commercial board like this is not a good idea. So...you didn't read any of this, you don't know about hotline. You think it's a suicide prevention service. ' you want warez? use IRC
>How much of the price of software is because of >patent license fees?
Employees have to be paid.
Your argument is silly, take IAR for instance
their C Compiler is outrageously expensive
(+$1500) but it works and people buy it. If it
it was stolen the company would eventually go
out of business.
Microsoft is a giant and won't be hurt by
losses because software is paid up front with
purchases of PCs but this isn't true of software
companies. I don't like Microsoft and try to
avoid using their products as much as I can but
if I do need some I will buy them.
Advocating stealing because someone can afford
to be robbed isn't a valid response to the laws
on piracy. Whether we agree or not with certain
laws, a fact remain and it is that what belongs
to others doesn't belong to you. If you want to
live free in a society you obey the laws of said
society.
If something is too expensive you go without it.
This is what I do and I ain't less happy this
way.
We live in a great country and obeing the laws
of the land isn't such a high cost.
being pirated means being widely distributed.
this means market share.
this means sales.
etc.
adrien
Point and Grunt
The very nature of computers is to make copies, you stupid ***holes! Are we going to have speech licences next? "Sorry you are not allowed to repeat anything that anyone else has said because someone holds the copyright on that thought. Off to the concentration camp with you." That's THIER wet dream isn't it.... Total criminilization for all TODAY! Make all "crimes" a federal offense, punishable by 10 years in prison. Create laws so that everyone no matter how young, old, or lazy can become and endentured servant to the system forever. I don't know what irks me more, the feds and lawmakers for doing what they do OR people on here that disagree with thier actions, yet are willing to give lip services and puss out by saying, "well he was dumb and deserves what he got since he got caught." you people truely have no spine.
It's very unlikely that programmers would make much more money if piracy ended. As another poster noted, it's the scarcity of programmers that dictates what they get. That is to say, if there were a gross oversupply of programmers, they would earn about as much as your local school teacher.
Your post seems to presume that a programmer's wage is calculated as some proportion of his or her company's profit. That is rare compared to the main thing that happens, *especially* in the software industry: profit margins are high, and those profits circulate in the hands of a relatively small group of investors.
So, we ought to ask, if the programmers and managers and so on are producing the software, and the small group of investors gets most of the considerable profits, who's committing theft in the first place? The company is committing 'official' theft, though they simply call it 'highly profitable business'.
Justin justo@linuxstart.com
It's funny what you say about MP3's. I don't doubt that there are some lost sales due to MP3's, but at the same time, there are also gained sales. I have a CD collection of ~100 CD's (I know, small). Somewhere around 10 of those (that's 10%!) were purchased because I d/l'd the MP3 and liked it enough to buy the CD. There are others I'd like to buy too, if I could only find them. --AC
As usual there's some truth in both arguments.
Some people who pirate software would have bought it. This is especially true for big products like Office, Photoshop, etc. I think the bottomline here is that as soon as you start making money of using a pirated product you probably would spent money to obtain this product if you couldn't pirate it. If you don't you're a thief.
On the other hand most pirates are just kids who want to try out some cool software. I suspect there are a lot of people out there that use photoshop (or some other bigshot photo editing software) to produce crappy images for their personal homepage. Assuming this type of person would spent hundreds or even thousends of dollars to obtain the software is of course rediculous.
The first case is in my opinion a clear case of theft, the second case is arguably good for the company selling the software:
- in case the pirate gets really interested in the product, he might actually buy it (yay one more customer)
- he might advise other people to buy the software (assuming he likes it).
Jilles
old story.
-I go to Rice, so figure out my email address
Where I live, Zimbabwe, and South Africa, music and software are just too expensive for the average man to afford. *******South Africa Win98 oem ------------R600 New music cd ---------R100 Minimum wage ---------R1000 ********Zimbabwe Win 98 oem ----------z$4000 Music cd ------------z$750 Minimum wage---------z$1500 The only way the rest of us can afford software is to borrow from a friend whose employer has forked out for the package, and make as many installs as possible.... Piracy is therefore a result of genuine need and lack of money ..... ..... do I hear Linux??? ------------------- just my z$0.02 worth
that's what it's there for.
~Kevin
:)
That assumes you ONLY loose money when somebody pirates your software... it is not always that simple, some software are sold because they are pirated. Do you think so many companies would buy 3D Studio Max if they didn't get all those workers who trained themselves at home on a pirate copy ? Student get a copy of 3DS Max (they couldn't buy it anyway considered the high price) and play with it, then they go into a business and ask to use the same software. Other more professional software are not bought because nobody ever get to play with a pirated copy of it in the first place. Same thing for M$ Office, people want it in the office because they can all have a pirate copy at home. So in the end a "lost" sale (not really lost because the person wouldn't buy it in the first place) turns into a real sale. That's the reason why so many companies make their software free for individuals and not business, they try to push this effect to its maximum - and it works.
Where I live, Zimbabwe, and South Africa, music and software are just too expensive for the average man to afford.
..... ..... do I hear Linux???
*******South Africa
Win98 oem ------------R600
New music cd ---------R100
Minimum wage ---------R1000
********Zimbabwe
Win 98 oem ----------z$4000
Music cd ------------z$750
Minimum wage---------z$1500
The only way the rest of us can afford software is to borrow from a friend whose employer has forked out for the package, and make as many installs as possible....
Piracy is therefore a result of genuine need and lack of money
-------------------
just my z$0.02 worth
Kinda like they were going to make an example of Kevin Mitnik?
Insert mind here.
Ok.....I can understand college kids and younger using and spreading warez -- they don't have the cash, they don't want to pay for a product that they might dump 3 days after paying for, etc. Granted, it's a crime, but so is underage drinking, and you rarely see kids sent to prison for that. My main beef is this: why is the sentence for software piracy so severe, when clearly there are more grevious (sp?) crimes out there with lesser sentences. And shouldn't prison be reserved for the greater evils of society? "What are you in form? Breaking and entering....wow. Me, I let some people download software for free." Pretty sad. I hope this guy gets off with a slap on the wrist, and our nation's police (the ones who do this sort of prosecution for a living) get a real job.
If he was fool enough to run a server where he could be traced by his ip, or whatever, then he is stupid. Somebody at my school, they got cought running an mp3 server at school, using his ip, public website. He almost got kicked out.
If you are going to run a server, educate yourself. Change your IP, Dont use a website
The pre 97 laws basically boiled down to this: -If you didn't make any money off of it, they just told you to stop and/or took your copies away. If you stopped and/or gave up your collection of pirated stuff, they let you off the hook free and clear, without wasting taxpayer dollars ;)going to court n the like. Only the bigtime, pirate-as-a-career guys had trouble. With the newer laws, they basically go after everyone with a cd-r. (at least thats the idea, in practice they're still dreaming :) Even if you aren't a small-time pirate (lan party trading) Linux people are lucky (and some have a tendency to crap on "any" pirates) but for those of us who HAVE to run winbloze for one reason or another, we have no choice. $700 for office, so I can make documents compatible with the rest of the terds...hell fucking no. $200 for a license of a pile of shit OS (windows 98 or NT Work full ver, one for each computer is the law :/ 3 for me, $600) that need serious help. So before the "righteous folk" start saying piracy is bad blah blah blah, they need to look at it again. If you go for linux yourself, you are on the side of us small time pirates whether you like it or not ;)
If Linux becomes #1 then how will pirates in china and taiwan make any money when you can get it for free? I wonder if my school's principal will try to get me arrested because he is too stupid to understand the GPL and that I can legally distribute linux for free.
---Got Coffee?---
If you don't enjoy developing software, don't do it. You're probably not very good at it anyway. Find something else that interests you.
I'm sick of hearing about these miserable little windows development firms claiming that they're going out of business because of a poor market.
If you love writing code, do it for free, or for a minimal charge. But certainly don't complain if you can't make something worthy of people's monetary donation (which it is, since whether or not you contribute money to the author makes little difference to your ability of acquiring a copy). Don't give me this bullshit that the world would fall apart without professional developers. I've worked with too many of them, and too many opensource-style coders over the past 10 years to believe that.
Look at the general trend software quality has been following. Most applications were rock solid in the past (particularly unix-based); now, with the flood of anxious (businessmen?) - frantically taking IT courses in computer programming - we have start-up company after start-up company throwing money at stupid ideas, and at stupid people who hopelessly slave away at a job they're only doing for the money.
If you want to get rich, why not try charging money for something that cannot be easily copied: your competence/knowledge, experience, or ability. Try offering services, not building something inherently distributable for controlled distribution.
Try integrating existing software and/or hardware for companies. Build some web sites, or offer product support. Maybe you could make modifications of something freely available for a person who will pay you directly for it.
No one said stealing cars was wrong because it cut into profits of car manufacturers. That would be asinine. People ARE saying illegal copying hurts software manufacturers. So the argument that illegal copiers would simply go without the software simply CANNOT be compared to car theft. The problem with cars is that the owner does not have the car anymore. The problem with illegal copying is that software companies are selling fewer copies (or are they -- the argument still stands!).
The first justification people try is "I wouldn't have bought it anyway."
Fine, then just don't use it. If it's not necessary for daily or periodic
usage, then you are either stuffing it on an archive CD or dabbling at
something. "What's the harm?" you might ask -- but what's the point either?
Piracy for piracy sake? Stealing is still stealing.
The next justification people try is "I just want to try it before I buy
it." Fine, then drop a line to the company! If they don't have a preview
or demo version, then I'm sure you could convince marketing to send you
a copy to try out. Honestly, most companies would like to start a real
relationship with a potential customer, so that if it *didn't* meet your
needs, they could get a list of feature suggestions for the next version.
Finally, the problem isn't one-off pirates, who grab a copy of the latest
game to play for a week. The problem -- the people they are prosecuting --
are the people who run the pirate servers. These are the people who send
out thousands of illegal software packages (or MP3s) a day. A single user
can only steal so much software, but pirate clearinghouses are exponentially
worse. Fortunately, they are much easier to catch and convict.
Matt Slot / Bitwise Operator / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
"We may question how the developer arrived at the price, but the decision is ultimately up to the guy(s) who created $(PRODUCT). Therefore, the price assigned to $(PRODUCT) is arbitrary and has nothing whatsoever to do with its development costs"
Just where the hell do you make this jump?! The price is arbitrary??? He just pulls it from a random number generator? Feels particularly horny that day and bumps it up $10?? Because the decision is up to the person who created the product the price must be arbitrary. Very cute, now get some sleep because you've been at the keyboard way too long.
"If I make a copy of your $(PRODUCT), you still have the original. You still have the ability to exchange it for your chosen price."
Well it's nice that you left the original copy, however now that you're "giving" (as if you created it or put any effort forth in obtaining it!) to all your friends at a reduced price of 0, the artist is going to have a helluva time making any money.
"If I use a CD-ROM drive to make a copy of Quake, you can still play your original. Since you haven't been deprived of anything, you can't claim theft."
You have stolen the right of the artist to distribute his product as he wishes. I think even comrade Stallman might agree that an artist has some rights (although paltry) on his work. Such as if he wants his product to be freely distributable forever to all persons. Or maybe to not allow other people to take credit for that work (fame is one of the GNU motivators is it not?).
"You may argue that you have lost "potential revenue" since your potential customer base has been reduced by the number of unsanctioned copies. Guess what: "this isn't theft, either."
Well I do argue that, and I would like you to present a better line of reasoning behind your thinking than "this isn't theft, either".
again, it's this kind of shit that forces me to be using profane statements.
FUCK THE MOTHER FUCKING GOVERMENT.
Umm.. let me get this straight. 1. Programs are intellectual property. 2. Intellectual property is bad to copyright 3. Software developers own the int. property 4. Good software should be paid for. 5. Most cost software is overpriced Now, let's look this through. Due to 1 and 2, pricing a product at all is bad, unless 4 is compiled with. 4 and 3 imply that developers need to be paid for the work they did. Now I guess that this implies this rule. 6. Money must enter the system. Now due to 6, the money must enter the system somewhere. If the product is being stolen due to 5, then money is not entering the system, and the 4 and 3 collapse. Now granted, money is still entering the system, but if the program is good, shouldn't more have the POTENTIAL to trickle down to the developers? This leads me to the most important part, especially regarding free software. 7. If money doesn't enter the system for the software , but rather for the services, is the potential higher that the person providing the services will get the trickle down instead of the developer? That is , will the messenger get more for delivering the message than the message writer writing the free message? I believe yes. That's why I believe piracy is wrong. If you write something for sale, you expect it to be for sale. I'm not arguing the ethics here, simply the cost. While I believe all software should be free, I also believe that it IS theft to take something which you are expected to pay for. Somewhere along the line, someone gets hurt by it. And that's just not fair. Especially not when we are arguing freedom for all. Mags
same w/me. nobody will ever know
Anyone who is distributing warez on a WEB-PAGE is a RETARD. I can't think of a dumber way of going about your buisness. People who lack basic knowledge about computers should not be involving themselves in illegal, computer related crimes. I hope this loser gets what's coming to him.
Did that guy really say "Comrade"? What, he some refugee from a Taco Bell chihuahua commercial?
From this distance it does appear that the US authorities are all to ready to apply criminal sanctions to Internet related activities. I would be interested to find out if breaches of copyright in other settings can attract criminal penalties under US law. What would be the situation for instance, if Mr Levy was giving away music copied onto cassettes in the local mall?
Compare also the recent Australian Federal Court decision on CyberSquatting, in which an already existing equitable remedy was applied, with the suggestions before the US Congress, that CyberSquatting be similarly criminalised. (This is a comparison Congress should imho be invited to make).
Now regulators will regulate, and the usual knee-jerk reactions to any attempts to legislate for the Net are simply unrealistic. It is, however, a fairly conservative demand to insist upon this basic principle: That nothing which is legal in the world at large be made illegal on the Internet. A corollary of this principle is that no infringement which gives rise only to civil liability in the world at large be made criminal oexclusively if it occurs on the Net.
The No Electronic Theft Act, is disturbing because it offends this principle and, as the earlier poster pointed out, singles computer users out for harsher treatment than similar offenders in receive irl.
[Spelling Nazis: please check the official Dictionary for my spelling jurisdiction before complaining, thanks.]
they taste better too!
Yumm!
(Does this count as offtopic?)