Slashdot Mirror
3Com & Psion to Join Forces for Wireless Internet
A reader wrote to us with the news that Psion and 3Com have agreed to join forces against WinCE. Software will be portable to either platform - Psion's or PalmOS and they will continue to work more closely together. Psion has support already from the biggest cell phone people - Nokia included, a great starting position.
StrongARM-based devices could run 68K code in emulation, and get better performance than the Dragonball in your Palm.
True, but the majority of current Psion devices are based upon the ARM 7100 running at relativly low speeds (16Mhz-36Mhz depending on the model). The Series 7 does have a StrongARM at 133Mhz, but like all similar devices, the typical use is the processor stalled as much as possible to conserve battery power. Running high MHz chips to emulate the dragonball doesn't seem like efficent usage of resources.
One might have said the same thing about IBM fifteen years ago...
/. not too long ago), and Microsoft can't afford to break into *every* market the way it did with IE.
It really comes down to what suceeds in the market. Microsoft charges an awful lot more for its OS than 3Com does (I saw $30 vs 50 cents here on
I just got a Psion 5mx last week
:-) seeing as I'm just a masters student in manchester...) were to get on to them, they'd change their mind. It seems silly to tie in epoc development to an MS product...
AFAIK, The psion EPOC32 SDK, is now free to download, £10 on CD... Hardly exorbitant,
althought a 100MB+ download ( for C++, java and OPL SDKS) can be painful.
The only problem is it is tied into MS Visual C -d'oh ! I emailed psion about this, and got told
that they had no plans to port their SDK to linux in the immediate future - but their SDK includes a complete EPOC implementation "WINS" that runs as a process under Win32. A similar "LINS" system would certainly be possible, but non-trivial for them to port, which is probably their main worry, apart from the fact that linux may become an epoc competitor.
However, the standard compiler for EPOC in the SDK is gcc, and their SDK includes other custom command line tools which run under MSDOS, but which look like they'd be a recompile-job for linux. The emulator is not absolutely necessary for development, so I suggested an initial release of their command line tools compiled for linux, which would be just about enough to ease epoc development on linux.
You could, I suppose, get by (ish) with wine and dosemu, but I'd prefer to have native tools,
Perhaps if more people/ people who carry more industry clout than me (
check out www.epocworld.com for dev. info
Voice imput would be cool. There's was a package called voiceshell on the amiga that used to run acceptably, with a 255-word vocab (one or more of which could be "load new vocab bank" - thus making the vocab practically infinite, but segmented...) on my (overclocked to!) 42MHz 68030 amiga, back in the good old days, so I suspect it would be possible on a 36MHz ARM...
There are several versions of tetris for free download on psion-related websites. Most are "freeware", some "shareware"
I can't comment on the java vm on the Psion 5mx, but I've successfully run the java vncviewer on my psion - it's slow (though I did manage to use netscape on it over a (null-modem) ppp link), so I'm looking into a port to native code...
Choice of masters is not freedom.
> 255-word vocab (one or more of which could be "load new vocab bank"- thus making the vocab practically infinite, but segmented...)
255-word vocab (one or more of the words could be "load new vocab bank xyz" - thus making the vocab practically infinite, but segmented...)
It could run ARexx commands, which meant that integration into the Amiga OS was trivial.
So, let the psion voiceshell run OPL/Macro5 stuff...
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Although, AFAIK, epoc is not open-source, it is designed to be cross-platform, like the linux kernel - i.e. psion can recompile epoc for different cpus and system architectures. There are currently the ARM 7100 and WINS (x86, running under windows) ports, but they are porting to some motorola arch. (not sure if it is 680x0).
Epoc C++ programs are supposed to be source compatible across epoc supported architectures.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Oh yeah, Sun did.
Its kind of amusing that my little 8meg winCE box can do all of the things listed on that wish list... Granted the free development kit is NOT in C, but its still a nice language. I am normally as down as anyone is about microsoft, but I have been a big proponent of hardwired OS's for a long time, and microsoft has the first *GOOD* implementation of this that I have seen in a while. I wish I could run CE on my win Box.
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
I am not a big fan of the windows 9x operating systems, mainly due to their lack of stability, and that fact that you cant do nearly as much with them as you can with linux. However, I really love my Philips Nino. Being able to read news on the fly, write mail, etc is a very nifty thing. Granted a palm can do pretty much anthing a nino can, but the impressive screen resolution on the nino lets me do minimalistic graphics design, then sync the file over to my windows box to do the real work in photoshop.
More on topic, I don't necessarily thing the cooperation will be a good thing. In trying to defeat one 'evil' (i.e. microsoft) Psion and 3com may be creating another evil. It is important to remember that all corporations are fundumentally out to make money, so an agreement between the two corporations is not going to be about bringing a better product to the user, its going to be about combining technologies to make a more attractive, and therefore more expensive one.
In the long run this may prove to be a good thing if it does provide more competition for either side, but I would be unhappy if either winCE or palm/psion continue to have an unequal share of the handheld market for the simple fact that compeption DOES force companies to implement better products.
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
Once again: ouch!
Then again, not being WinCE has merits too ...
wince is one of microsoft's less bad products, but it is still sucky compared to epoc's design. To call wince "good" is a little over the top, when it's still very inefficient and bloated compared to epoc.
/recognition/, not voice recording...)
I would never say I was a propenent of harwired OSes - I'd much rather my PDA's OS was on flash ram, so I could upgrade it/replace it with something else. (n.b. this is _not_ possible with my psion, AFAIK)
For a given processor power, I'd prefer epoc to wince - but most wince PDAs have faster CPUs than epoc ones, mainly to compensate for wince's overhead, but some include a margin over and above. The psion series 7, however, pretty much puts paid to that, given it runs at 133 MHz.
I haven't seen wince voice recognition, myself.
How powerful is it - is it like the level I'm suggesting, where you say "word" and the wordprocessor opens, or what? (i.e. voice
Choice of masters is not freedom.
My Touchpoint phone has an accessory listed
for a cable that plugs it into a DB9 serial
port. Supposedly, this allows it to be used
as a modem for data and fax.
In addition to that capability, it has a
web browser built in, which I've actually
used to get driving directions from maps.yahoo.com. It does an RSA key exchange, and
an ecrypted link. That's quite cool, but I'd rather just use the phone as an external for my
notebook.
Which of you geeks has tried this? (Which of you
developed it?) I've heard conflicting reports that a pcs phone is fast as a modem, and is slow.
Which is it?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
blow it out yer ass
This news is excellent! Psion's are great, and some kind of interoperability between the Palm and the Psion will mean a lot in fighting Windows CE's advances on the market.
:) (first post hehehe)
Cant wait!
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
I mean, I like it as much as the next Linux geek when M$ gets bashed. But let's look at the facts. When the major corporations (Intel, IBM etc.) have gotten Microsoft out of their way and another OS (f.ex. Linux) has become dominant in the market what insures that the giants wont turn on us then. I mean, I would expect that their main mission is to become OS independant, wheather it's Windows OR Linux.
---
Killroy Woz Here
Note all those options specified in the link? With a little tinkering, you can make an ordinary article just a little more eye-catching.
For more information, click here.
IMHO WinCE is already losing. It isn't like WinCE is capturing more of the market. Everyone likes the PalmOS, and now that more companies are seeing that it is the direction to go (and some even dropped their WinCE handhelds) we may see a continuing trend in this area. We can always hope at least.
Looks like microsoft has yet another thing to worry about (create a 3compsionmyths page about?). Nice to see people teaming up to make quality software against redmond.
Is is just me, or does this article not really say that much? What, exactly, are the two parties going to be doing?
I'm *really* not convinced that apps can be made portable between the two - the EPOC SDK is extremely complicated, and although I haven't seen the PalmOS one I wouldn't have thought that they were at all similar. Perhaps the app engines could be made portable, but things like user interfaces would still be a problem.
Unless they use Java, which EPOC supports - does PalmOS?
Jon
http://www.epoczone.com/
All I can say to that is, Don't make me puke!
it reads: buy a new machine every time the alliances are changin. and they often change.
* a merry live and a short one
Then, Microsoft is beginning to pick up on the embedded & hand-held markets, again. And they have some serious resources they can throw at things. If they break into the market, then it won't matter how good the alternatives are, they'll fail.
On the flip-side, if 3Com and Psion can pull this off, and deliver a coup de grace to Windows SE, that might deliver some HUGE shock-waves to the market, way beyond merely who controls that one sector. For Microsoft to admit defeat, even in an area they've never done well in, their image will be seriously damaged in -every- market. Once someone has been beaten, they lose the aura of invincibility, not just with that opponent, but with everyone. There would be a real danger of competitors in other markets taking the battle to Microsoft, rather than allowing themselves to be controlled and dominated.
Depending on how this turns out, it could be the end of 3Com & Psion, or the end of Microsoft domination in computing in general. In business, image is EVERYTHING. Who wins, wins big. Who looses, looses it all.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This is really nice, and will help developers alot.
I work for Corporate Software & Technologies where we do software for these two platforms (as well as WinCE) to complement our corporate scheduling software. (In fact, I just finished work on the Mac conduits for Palm.) We work in collaboration with Lexacom to share the pain that it is to support all 3 platforms.
This new collaboration between Psion and 3Com will certainly help in delivering new products to these platforms dur to the projected interoperability, and certainly give one more incentive for shareware and freeware developers to widen the selection of available add-ons to these platforms.
Isn't it interesting that when a company such as Palm with 40+ percent of the market alone and Psion with about 10-13 percent of the market team up, nobody makes any noise about them practically OWNING the market?
Let's be a tad realistic here: have you people tried actually using a WinCE device lately?? They SUCK compared to any PALM device.
Doesn't this count, by US laws, as a monopoly? Remember how they made laws that said that Ma Bell couldn't have more than 40-some-odd percent of the market? What gives?
--
rJames.org - illustration
For one, I'm not even interested in wireless mail &c for as along as there's a per-message charge.
Pagers and cell phones were the same way. They never entered mainstream culture until economically priced calling packs are available with more messages or minutes than anyone would use.
The imposition of having to consider the charge of each and every communication, or of having to select which friends 'deserve' your number or e-mail simply keeps it from blending into comfortable, everyday use.
- Java for PalmOS
- More Java
- SSH and other crypto stuff for Palm Pilot
- There are free development tools for Linux
- One alternative to Grafitti (There are many)
- Tetris clone
Voice Reconition will come along when they make a mic input for the Palm.- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
Interestingly enough, the screen on a Psion handheld is either 640x240 or 640x480 (colour) ... they're not quite pocket sized anymore, but with them attached to (not part of) a cell phone, the Internet would be very usable. I'd expecially love to have one in a holder on my dash board to use mapquest from :).
...
... all hardware evolves slowly until its supported by Linux
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
>MS did some bad and ugly things to push their >non-standards against WAP and have, quite simply >put, annoyed a lot of people here. MS proved >again to be full of sh*t, in every respect. could you quote some examples ?
Could you cite some examples?
Its basically just for opening programs and doing simple tasks. To be perfectly honest I dont know how good it is, cause I haven't trained it. I am already a big enough geek without talking to my PDA ;)
As far as processor goes, why are you even concerned about a processor on a PDA? The only thing that I do that is even remotely processor intensive is the ocassional browsing of those nifty little mobile channels. It would appear that microsoft *GASP* didn't write very efficient code for interpreting the page layout. The Mobibook reader for CE does a much nicer job of it, but it also ignores the table layouts and neater parts of HTML that the Mobile channel does cover.
mov ax, 13h
int 10h
As you can imagine, I have signed a non-disclosure agreement with momma-Nokia. However, I have found this excerpt from an article. It's not directly related to WAP, but it shows MS's attitude:
:o)
In significant contrast to recent mega deals,
Microsoft has just acquired STNC, a small 40 strong
British software company founded in 1993, based in
Bury St. Edmunds. No purchase price has been
announced.
Perhaps just a small deal on the side?
Not according to industry commentator
'Peter PDAntic'. He interprets the move, along with
the previous acquisition of Swedish company
Sendit as part of a deliberate strategy to control
the related middleware and pivotal enablers for
the Symbian Alliance's EPOC operating system,
which Gates has already declared to be one of
Microsoft's biggest threats.
PDAntic says Gates probably argues that if
Microsoft can't (yet) control or own the major
players of the Symbian alliance such as Nokia,
Ericsson, Motorola and Matsushits, then perhaps
they can buy as many as possible of the
middleware enablers. "Money, after all, does
talk", he says.
Davis Haskin of Allnet says STNC's products
(already available or under development) include
key parts of the EPOC operating system, especially
EPOC communications and browser code, as well
as WinCE software. STNC's Hitchhiker smart phone
platform includes a TCP/IP stack, a microbrowser,
e-mail support and other tools. Symbian has
recently licensed STNC's web browsing software.
MS got them just to piss off those who want to make WAP-based clients, including Nokia. However, Microsoft was very late and feet-dragging to join the WAP Forum (www.wapforum.org). It was not long ago when on our meetings we spoke about MS as "noticeably missing" from the WAP Forum. No wonder, they were pushing some proprietary protocols, and I have completely forgotten by now what they were. MS made some partnerships, but as we know, whoever is in bed with MS gets screwed. For MS partners, not to adopt WAP would be really screwy; WAP is taking the industry by storm and everyone and their dog is adopting and developing on it.
Another excerpt, this one a bit OT, but sweet:
According to Bloomberg, market consideration
of the Motorola results boosted optimism for
Nokia whose shares rose Euros 0.75 to
Euros 90.7.
But meanwhile, Finland's industry minister,
Erkki Tuomioja, is reportedly worried about Nokia.
According to Digital Strategies Europe, the
minister believes that Nokia may be a takeover
target for Microsoft.
The minister is said to be concerned that such a
move by Microsoft 'would be impossible for Nokia
and the Finnish government to resist' and any
such deal would seriously undermine the
Symbian alliance and Europe's chances of
overtaking the US in the ICT field.
Microsoft is said to be known to be increasingly
interested in Nokia's market, especially in the
WAP-enabled smart phones business.
MS's strategy: if you can't beat them, buy them
No wonder, since WAP is a very nice, open protocol suite modeled upon the Internet protocol stack.
Sigged!
You're probably right about talking to the PDA. It's bad enough seeing people with hands-free mobile phone sets, walking down the street apparently talking to themselves, without people yelling "sheet!" and "word!" and "mail!" at random... :-)
As for processor power, it's always nicer to have more rather than less. Apps like voice recog. do require power, as do things like Encore (A work-in-progress Psion doom port...)
Choice of masters is not freedom.
I joined Nokia at the time they invested in Symbian, together with Ericsson and Motorola. (Note: Nokia, Motorola and Ericsson are the three biggest players in mobile phone market, and otherwise there is bloody competition between them.) I was/am a fan of Palm and so was a bit disappointed, believing Nokia would have been better off to invest in the Palm OS. OTOH, Nokia, Ericsson and Motorola (and now Matsushita and Philips and who else..) know well where they put their money. They certainly wouldn't cooperate on a project if they weren't sure it's going to be turbogood, and strategially important.
Also, please note how Nokia has really *huge* know-how of embedded and special purpose OSs. I don't mean only the GSM (and nordic) phones, but also the multiprocessor/modular DX-200 switching platform.
So in the end Nokia decided to use Epoc *and* Palm OS. Why not? They are both great embedded OSs, efficient and well designed, and as such it's easily possible to find synergies.
I would also like to add that Nokia as a corporation doesn't like Microsoft. MS did some bad and ugly things to push their non-standards against WAP and have, quite simply put, annoyed a lot of people here. MS proved again to be full of sh*t, in every respect. That's (probably) one of the reasons Nokia chose Linux for it's multimedia set-top/wireless Internet access device.
And, just as another example, Linux and *BSD are meeting with less and less resistence in the corporation, you can see these boxes everywhere now! A good place to work for a nerd (which I am not (fingers crossed)).
Sigged!
CNET has a similar article here.
T.
Palm has a 680x0 family CPU, while Psion is ARM CPU.
Psion does have it's interpted OPL language, which could be used to write cross-platform software, but it's a little limited for writing advanced applications.
I think the main point here is not about dominating the PDA field, it is about which operating system gets chosen for the mobile multimedia terminals. Face it, mobile wide-band technologies are here in 2-3 years. First there will be GPRS (GSM Packet Radio Service), which provides connectionless data transmission through GSM networks with a reasonable bandwidth. A couple of year from that, 3rd gen. mobile networks will be emerging, and they will provide 256 Kb/s - 2 Mb/s of bandwidth. Think about it, that will make continuous real-time multimedia streaming feasible. Streaming Mp3 or even MPEG4 to your mobile terminal! Now when you think that in the most advanced countries (Finland, that is), already 85% of the active population have cellular phones, and current mobile phones will be gradually upgraded to mobile multimedia terminals, dominance on that market begins to look pretty important. The PDA, or even the desktop market, seems almost insignificant in comparison. Since ALL of the major mobile players are with Symbian, and none (AFAIK) with Microsoft, it -- at the moment, at least -- seems like MS is missing their launch window to the major market of the future! Interesting, isn't it?
Though I'm always glad to see someone fight M$, I haven't been as impressed with the progress of the Palm platform. Aside from the recent addition of wireless access (admittedly a big change), the OS and apps really haven't changed much. Some people say the simplicity is good, but I think the simplicity can be maintained with advances in the platform. It would be nice to see higher resolution, more bit depth, sound input (now on some Handspring models), etc.
infobhan
Piss off, you bloody Microsoft plant...
1) Real TCP/IP stack (winsock).
2) Based on a subset of the Win32 API.
3) Excellent C++, Java, VB tools.
4) Excellent emulation environment.
I have REAL wireless Internet access on my CE device, not some bastardized PalmVII version.
Try again Palm.
Or complete strangers leaning over and declaring "Delete all .. confirm .."
Which reminds me that in films, the robot always has a name, so that it knows when it's being spoken to. Sort of like my 1972 Chevelle. And in robot tradition, the name of the robot is its creator's name, backwards.
"D'nomder! Delete all! No, I don't want to see this dialog next time dammit!"
>is awesome technology now. Yeah, it's >microsoftand yeah it's wince, but I vote for >better technology anyday. I think this is complete vapourware. MS has lost it's vision. They had to get together some trendy vision about wireless systems. Truth is that big companies like Siemens, Bosch etc. spent YEARS for developing decent 'simple' GSM phones. I mean many GSM phones that were introduced before 1998 [In Europe] had either problems with hardware (battery, size, display etc) or with software (lack of options, idiotic features) when compared to Ericsson and especially Nokia. Some of them can't STILL get them right (for example Motorola) IMHO. I wonder how well a company like Microsoft with virtually no experience in this field succeeds developing a SMART phone. Even Nokia has obvious problems with it's new 7110 WAP Phone. It should have reached market already, but haven't seen them yet.. MS has lot's of money but buying know-how seems to be quite difficult..
"Mr. Gates added that the phone would have an amazing one hour battery life (standby: 5 minutes talk time). The screen will be 640x480 resolution, five inches across and three down, thus fitting comfortably in the palm of two hands."