Slashdot Mirror
MTV Hacker Saga Gets Worse
weld writes "Now Shamrock, one of the MTV hackers portrayed as involved in some sort of criminal behavior, has posted a letter saying he made it all up. He now wants to come clean. He made it all up to dupe MTV because he knew all they wanted was criminal hacking stories. The journalistic integrity of this "special" is under serious question now. HNN has posted
Shamrock's letter to the hacking community. " Check out our original story on this to get the full details.
I think that /. and the rest of the online geek community should just move on from caring about what MTV thinks. As this sort of lifestyle moves farther into the limelight, this sort of thing is just going to get worse. We don't post enquirer articles that say computer programs predict the future, why should we post this junk? But maybe if the Enquirer was online....
-- Moondog
They're always trying to steal 'me lucky charms.
--Bernie
There is nothing here....database problems?
EverCode
Maybe not in the big scheme of things, but it will affect all those MTV drones. I was chatting in on an IRC channel when MTV was playing a rerun of it. And the people in there thought that guy was so cool, and what he was doing was real. They truly believed that's how real "hackers" acted and did there stuff. I had to help set them straight of course. But people belive this crap, that's what's scary.
or Posers... or Fakes.. or Morons...
Anyone else get left out? :)
The Anti-hacker: "See? The battle over the name 'hacker' is dead! Get over it!"
The Poll-dweller: "Rob sux!"
The Moderator wannabe: "Rob rulez!"
The Third-world country starving kid might have an insightful comment, but his underprivileged background forces him to remain in silence.
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
...`//|-|3|\| 14/v\0|~5p33|< `//i11 fi|\|411y |~3p14<3 3|\|91i5|-| ?
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Can anyone email the article to tuxedomask19@hotmail.com or point me to another site its on? Surf watch blocks it.
Too much Unix maybe... :-)
PBS? NPR? Too left wing. They were taken over by the communist conspiracy with transferrable power from the network ten turns ago. . .
.
And Slashdot? Run and censored by a secret cabal of "Meta Moderators". .
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Turn-On, Tune-In, Lose Brain.
Summary of the first metacomment of this thread:
- The metacomment: concise, and somewhat critical of pretty much the entire thread, without actually stating that "this does not belong on slashdot" because it arguably has to do with a topic some nerds may be interested in.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
In the end you could probably write it off as either laziness (doesn't care) or ignorance (really doesn't care or ESL).
He really didn't say anything useful except that "MTV is bullshit" in more ways than I can count. I guess the critical issue is this: he never really gave me a clear indication of what he thinks a hacker is. Maybe there's something I'm just not drawing a conclusion from based on the fact that I didn't watch the MTV thing and don't really consider HNN to be a hacker resource by any means (mainly because aside from looking at cracked pages and trivial things like this link, there's nothing tangile I ever see on there that I don't see on Slashdot first.. and how is cracking a hacker thing? maybe I just haven't stared at HNN long enough to get it.. but then, my time is already monopolized by "other" things). I think he'd get more credibility points if a) he defined what he thinks a hacker is and b) he spelled better/used proper English (sorry, low blow I know, but hey..).
~ Kish
The journalistic integrity of this "special" is under serious question now.
"Now"? Is there ANYONE, in or out of the hacker community, who takes ANYTHING MTV says seriously?
---
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
So, after making sure MTV really only wanted some sordid story about a massive criminal underground, this guy gave it to them, and now is pointing the journalistic integrity finger at MTV. I don't know who's worse.
I also doubt this will make everyone believe the media conspiracy of convenience this guy espouses. No doubt it exists, as he just proved, but I'm not sure if the form of the proof is all that helpful to the general public. I doubt anyone outside the cracker and hacker communities will ever hear about the tale this guy spun, and they'll end up believing what they see on MTV.
Oh, well.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
the people at MTV should gather all these so called Hackers and create a RealWorld.
Shamrock got a lot of flak on HNN if i remember correctly.. I wonder if he saw that, or if his friends started giving him trouble for it, as well. There's no one the underground community dislikes more than a bragging cracker.
Regards,
-efisher
---
this
I could only manage to read a few paragraphs of this before I had to stop. The spelling was terrible, the grammar was terrible. In short, it looked as if he didn't bother to read what he had wrote before submitting this.
I know I am off topic with this, but this is just one example of low standards of grammar and spelling endemic throughout this community. At the very least, can't people run spell checkers? Why are geeks so bad at this?
By the way, loose != lose. I left a couple of errors in this post, because everyone knows the rules of spelling and grammar flames, but the question still remains. How can people be so good with code, where the smallest errors can make the biggest difference, and still write so poorly?
Well, I guess we already knew MTV sucked, and now they're going to have to issue a statement about how the whole thing was staged. I'll bet about 90% of the MTV viewers will be like "Whoa, fake hax0rez? Dood, wheres my KGB, its almost 420" and get on with their lives. However, Hopefully this will lead the more mainstream media to uncloak fakes such as Se7en and CPM more often. This incident reminds me of Jericho's talk on "Fakes Walk Among Us" where the media attending the event concluded that experts were experts because they had been in so many magazine articles. MTV didn't even really go after a purported expert to be on their show, they went after a bucha kiddiez. Serves them right :) How much do you wanna bet that MTV thought they were 31337 because they had a Linux box somewhere?
Since when has MTV been accused of being serious journalism?~ ~^~~^~
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^^^~^^~~^~
That's possibly the worst attitude towards journalism I've ever seen. Are you serious?
So what about after you've played with them? What then? I'll tell you - then everyone who reads or sees this media that you've faked is lead to believe that it's true. This MTV special wasn't meant to be a joke for hackers, it was meant to be a story to give outsiders insight into what the life of a hacker is like. I don't have any pity for MTV for bungling it, but for you to place all of the blame on them is ridiculous. This kid lied. You can't blame the victim for being a victim.
It's the same argument over and over again: Who's fault is it when a cracker breaks into your system? Your's for leaving it insecure? Or his for breaking the law and trespassing in a private network? Only now it's "Who's fault is it when a crappy broadcast goes over? The networks for believing the people they interview? Or the interviewees for lying through their teeth and making a mockery of the whole issue?"
The entire thing makes me sick.
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Badly *spelled*, even.
I have not seen the MTV show, sorry to say, although after this they'll probably just pull it out of embarassment. But I have seen several episodes of ParseTV, those surrounding DefCon. These guys seemed not to know much about actual tech details, but were really really into the 'culture'. They made a mistake in allowing phone in callers asking technical questions. I'm in NO way saying the show doesn't have value, it does, as like, and Entertainment Tonight of the scene. I thought it was sort of alright, just overlooked the technical mistakes. They all did seem to drop right out of Hackers (r)(tm) though. Actually, maybe if they did RTM it would be a more valuable show.
I like music
http://www.antionline.com/cgi-bin/News?type=antion line&date=10-18-1999&story=mtv.news
Reality is like a Suitcase, we only take it out of storage when needed. -penfold
ROTFL..
Was there ever a doubt that this 'kid' was making it up? You could TELL he really, REALLY wasn't the real thing.. I just wrote it off as me steroetyping the kid, but apperently my first guess was right..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
LOL.. If I had watched it, this would have prolly
;)
been obvious too, but...
Heh, serves the morons right.
MTV is NOT a news station anyways - they're entertainment (tho the same could be said about most 'news' stations too.. hah) !
So... thats what you get when you don't check your sources
No, no legal recourse can be taken, I think. Unless they signed a legal document or something promising they were telling the truth. You're allowed to lie to MTV in this country. :)
go read a book....know your role and shut your hole
In the first sentence, he apologises. For the rest of the paragraph he blames MTV. Wow.
This reads like one huge, badly-spelt, ass-covering exercise. However true it (or most, or some of) it is, it does no credit to hackers or crackers. Script kiddies, maybe.
MTV were to blame in the manner he suggests; they're just interested in sensationalist crap. For our hacking chum to pretend he wasn't aware of this is, let's say, interesting.
Maybe I jsut won't watch TV anymore...
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
So does that make it okay for Shamrock to give them false sensationalism?
Shocking. I can see no good reason why MTV can't make up it's own false sensationalism -- just like the rest of the media sewer--err, outlets.
No.
It used to be Music Television, a long time ago in a galaxy far away.
as a viewer of ParseTV and a semi-friend of Shamrock and Mantis, I know how he views the hacker/cracker thing, and the stuff he said in the "special" go against stuff I've heard him say before, so I'm sure he made all the stuff up to give MTV what they wanted. Until the whole world becomes geeks like us, any non geek will view a hacker/cracker as the way this special, and others portray them... you need to be a nerd to realize what's true and what's not.
Do not take this dangerous piece of advice seriously.
Many people will tell you to think when you watch television. These people will also tell you to eat while you're swimming and run the hair dryer in the shower. This stuff just doesn't mix, people.
Do you wonder why people think The King of Queens is funny? Do you ask yourself what engineering know-how Lincoln brings to the design of sport-utility vehicles? Was your favorite new show cancelled after two episodes? These are all warning signs.
High-level thought while watching television is the number one cause of TV tuneout today. Don't become a statistic -- stay on the couch, where it's safe.
This message brought to you by the National Association of Broadcasters, the Ad Council, and the guys who make those little green drool cups.
phil
This reminds me a little of the anecdote about Time magazine when the "grunge" thing was just starting to become a fad.
They wanted a big story on it, and interviewed a few bands, who fed them all sorts of crap they made up off the top of their heads. Of course the article had nothing to do with reality. That was hilarious.
We can't beat 'em, we may as well play with them.
If they interviewed me, I would have them take pictures of me using an ancient DOS AT-286, talking about how many banks I'd hacked and how I regularly break into government computers.
support gun control: take guns from cops
A few thoughts on hackers and spelling:
./ and newsgroups and such. Why is it that proper spelling is considered of such low importance that we can't even run our stuff through ispell? Maybe I am just getting older (late 20's) but no matter what the content, the apparent childishness of a writing seems to be linear with the amount of misspellings.
Like most people who are reading this I never thought spelling mattered at all. I have never had any trouble getting any jobs that I wanted due to my lake of English know how. I remember overhearing the hr people at my company talking about the atrocious spelling on some of the resumes that we get. This has never stopped us from hiring anyone and I agree that it shouldn't.
However, as of late I have been increasingly aware of the terrible spelling from most of the posts I read on
Do you understand the difference between "your" and "you're"? How about "smiths", "smith's", and "smiths'"? Do you know when to use "to" and when to use "too"?
Is it "responsible" or "responsable"?
Yes, it is cool that we work in a field where your logic ability is all that really counts, but maybe we should begin to take some pride in our written communication skills for their own sake?
my 00000010 cents.
His random spelling of any polysyllabic word must have assured them he had street cred.
Do we have any reason to believe this retraction?
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
It shouldn't be surprising that MTV is not interested in the true story of hackers, which is usually only interesting to other hackers. They can get much better ratings from the Hollywood-inspired bull. I honestly wonder if our response to this should be to simply ignore it.
----
----
"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he hid Piglet's mangled corpse.
Is this telling us anything we didn't already know? I mean c'mon, getting a disk before the Police? Hacking in windoze? Ping -f 60110?!? Maybe were the gullable ones.
/]#' somewhere in the thing. Or maybe a Perl script being edited in Emacs (instead of Notepad). Or.................maybe..............they could have printed up little skulls (like in Independence Day) on NASA's computers and showed a flash of light falling to earth that was the Space Shuttle. Then again....
Anyway, I guess it was nice of him to come clean. Actually, I think it would have been cool if their `prank' had actually worked. How many people get to write their own script and have it put on MTV?
However, I think it would have been really cool if I had actually seen a `[root@nasa.gov
That's my $(2^4*3+1/7%3*2/100)
--Justin Mitchell
"2nd Place is a fancy word for losing" --Bender (Futurama)
IANALNDIPOOTV, but I have a feeling MTV could sue these people for "misrepresentation" or something like that. If this story gets beyond slashdot and out into popular media, I don't think MTV is going to be able to ignore the issue. I see two possible responses from MTV:
1) Ignore the problem, shrug it off
2) Sue.
Do you think Shamrock really has worse spelling and grammar than Hemos, or did he Hemosize his article to get Hemos to post it?
/. it sounded exactly like entertainment, not a documentary. When was the last time someone turned to MTV for their journalistic capabilities?
/. but the server isn't serving up the other replies for the moment. The best thing slashdotters could do is ignore this, or at least name and shame MTV.
So, the guy hacks MTV, pulls one over on them, and now is trying to explain himself to the hacking community. Something is fishy.
Shamrock and his coworkers need to get together and present every fact of their side of the story. Dates, places, names of MTV flacks, what got said, what got rejected. If they do that, then I will have more confidence this was a real media hack, and not some snotty wannabe script-kiddie who pulled a fast one and found himself in shit.
But given the shallowness of MTV, it is not surprising some illiterate kid could take them for a ride. Didn't see the show myself, but from descriptions here on
I expect a lot of "told you so" here on
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
He's now trying to save face after his ego trip blew up in it.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
MTV has lost its touch with specific users who found rock music to be tastefull. Since MTV because more about soft rock, R&B, and dance, I can understand how the Metallica lovin', TOOL listenin', and Nirvana worshpin' folks left as soon as Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, and N'SYNC sucks the mighty beach house tikki god off. MTV doesn't care about the viewer. They just got for the hip hot shite (Yes, shite). They got rid of Kennedy (The best female VJ on MTV) and Head Bangers Ball (The greatest show BESIDES "The State") which was a another great show.
He should have ran his letter through a spell checker once before sending it off... though I have to admit, those are the most comical spelling errors I've seen in a while...
... except on a popular culture outlet rather than on academia.
(For those who don't know, Alan Sokal is the professor who managed to get an article arguing that gravity is an arbitrary social construct accepted to a peer-reviewed journal, and promptly revealed that he had written it to see if they really would publish such a piece of obvious nonsense. The Editors Were Not Amused.)
They wanted a big story on it, and interviewed a few bands, who fed them all sorts of crap they made up off the top of their heads. Of course the article had nothing to do with reality. That was hilarious.
;-)
We can't beat 'em, we may as well play with them.
Indeed.
But what I'm intrigued by is the effect that this lying, this proliferation of falsehood just to get attention, has on the large floundering-around-pathetically part of society. Just think of all the people who'll read this kind of stuff and believe it. And not only that, they'll quote it to others and remember key phrases in the backs of their minds, mulling over it intensely periodically for brief periods of time, spout some jibberish out, and continue with their thoughtless lives. Fish! They're all fish!
Let the flames begin....
Insert mind here.
Perhaps there's a relative lack of reading? It's easier to develop -- and use, on a daily basis, without conscious effort -- better language skills if reading literature happens to be a primary diversion, or if academic training has included such as a major component. Quasi-formal writing, such as a high school-level paper on the historical encroachment of the Roman Catholic Church into matters temporal during the Middle Ages, usually explicitly demands good writing, while reading authors who strive for quality rather than mass-market appeal provide interesting examples.
Alternately, one can spend time in front of an N64 developing twitch skills.
It also does not help if high schools feel compelled to reduce the difficulty of coursework in a bizarre attempt to raise students' self-esteem.
Of course, many of us -- including yours truly -- arguably should not complain about lax standards, likely not being able ourselves to pass the exams of, say, a century ago...
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
And, of course, you've been moderated up as `Insightful'.
/. community at large feels that this is a colossal waste of time and energy, and therefore do not bother to use brainpower to moderate or post (probable. note that I'm not replying to the actual article myself)
I have to agree with what I hope is the moderator's intent. It's obvoius that you have brought to light a point that I (for one) missed: This article is not worth moderating. Why the moderators are not using points on this article is another thing, however.
Some thoughts...
-- There is a shortage of moderators (unlikely)
-- There is a shortage of moderator points (again, unlikely)
-- Most moderators hate MTV, and will therefore not bother to read the artice (one can hope)
-- The
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
Actually, you're wrong. It's just that the music on MTV, radio, and the in the stores happens to suck. There's some excellent music being made out there, you just have to actively seek it: listen to 100 MP3s, and buy the top 10% CDs through the mail.
--
Let's not all suck at the same time please
Let's not all suck at the same time please
Here I am, in my apartment, with my TV next to the computer. It's a nice TV, really it is. It's a Sony 25 inch with MTS stereo, the whole nine yards. It's a really nice TV to watch music videos with, especially back when MTV used to actually play music videos. Remember those?
The power switch has been broken on it for 8 months, because I haven't been motivated enough to spend _20_ minutes to actually open the beast up and resolder the switch.
500 channels and nothing on.
*Shrug*, in the next 10 years, the TV networks will be nonexistent as you know them today, simply because it can't compete with the *content* of the 'Net, as the rest of us out here already know.
For sale, cheap, one Sony 25 inch Trinitron.
..that I shouldn't watch the upcoming VH-1 special on Phreaks? I hear it's going to feature an interview with the illustrious Toucan Sam...
Online gaming for motivated, sportsmanlike players: www.steelmaelstrom.org.
I watch Parse: hack/phreak each week and I've talked to him on irc plenty of times. I can positively say Shammy's not a clueless script kiddie or whatever else you've come up with. Also, I'd have to say this was a great stunt he pulled, and I trust that the letter he wrote was just because as someone stated earlier, his plan didn't totally work out as he intended. Now Mantis, that's another story... That 'ps aux' crap he pulled was just lame. Of course you know MTV was dropping a load in their pants. "Oh look! He just listed every program that everyone on this computer is running!" Wow. Also, how hard was it to tell it was fake... He had important information on a diskette, but he couldn't say what was on it. Secondly, it was a 3.5in floppy. If it was anything super important, there would probably be a lot of it, or maybe a program. A zipdisk would have been more appropriate, or maybe a burned CD. Also, am I the only one that thought the parts with Shammy in the City looked obviously planned and acted out. I found this all amusing. By the way, mexican circus midgets with machine guns are funny.
If you pretend to be a hijacker on a plane you get your butt thrown in Jail...
I think the cops should go around to the chaps house and anything which looks remotely like a computer, jail him indefinatly and give him the computer back the stuff in 20 years time. See how cool he feels then.
Hahahah. I hate the morons at MTV. It is great that they were fooled by this bullshit. I watched about ten minutes of it. The part about his buddy getting arrested and then them actually able to go to his apartment and take something from it. Yeah right. No cop is that stupid. HAHAHHA
Gov't is looking HARD to hang a cracker. Mitnick. That Melissa virus guy. They want a whipping boy to scare others away from the "glamouous cracking" that Hollywood continues to portray. And this guy probably got scared that he could become that whipping boy. It's like why cDc calls Back Orifice a "remote administration" tool. After all, it's now illegal to write viruses and trojan horse programs. Do YOU want to become the fed's test case for this new law?
We waited for months to see if they would be realistic and after it was obvious that they wouldn't we figured the only option would be to discredit them with as much fiction as possible).
This is the most immature thing I have ever heard about journalism. If MTV's getting it wrong, then why couldn't Shamrock et al. help them out? Or if you see that the show is going to be bad, and there is no way they're going to get it right, then the mature thing to do is get out of the show, and let MTV do their stupid thing without you involved. It's just plain dumb to be part of a badly-executed project and then apologize for it. Why be involved with it in the first place?
The only reason I can see Shamrock stayed with it is to be on MTV. Sure, I want to be on MTV too, but I'm not gonna spread misinformation to gullible preteens to get there.
Sometimes they are smart, but make lots of mistakes.
as a viewer of ParseTV and a semi-friend of Shamrock and Mantis, I know how he views the hacker/cracker thing, and the stuff he said in the
"special" go against stuff I've heard him say before, so I'm sure he made all the stuff up to give MTV what they wanted. Until the whole world
becomes geeks like us, any non geek will view a hacker/cracker as the way this special, and others portray them... you need to be a nerd to realize
what's true and what's not.
Derf!!
MTV acknowledges the fact that they dont play music...witness M2...where they promise that this time they'll really actually be Music Television. From what I've heard there's some pretty eclectic (read: good) music on there, not all Top 40 boom boom boobie pop. Problem is, I can't get it here...can anyone? What's the poop?
LOGIN: BClinton pass: XXXXXXX
It is very much a research book. Basically, the book is the summary of the authors' research in this subject and is at times kind of dry. I have also not found this book in English, so you'll have to get it in German or find a transation or traslator.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
shamrock wrote:
Do you really think that we are some kind of "information security resource"? or "hacker culture outlet"? No. We're entertainment. We use the web as a form of free speech to do whatever the hell we want in an effort to entertain the people that watch us.
Golly! Substitute the word "television" where the above sentence has "the web", and that's pretty much what MTV does. Not reporting the news, not presenting facts, just entertaining the gullible masses. If the truth about hackers isn't flashy enough (it isn't), we'll make something up. Or find someone who at least looks like the youthful telegenic hacker image we want to present.
Only MTV gets pilloried for their efforts, while shamrock expects... I don't know what shamrock expects. Sympathy? Kudos? Yeah, I suppose he pulled a prank on MTV. But MTV pulled a prank on him (and all the boring code-crunching not-so-telegenic hackers out there) first. MTV wanted something flashier than 2600 and HNN had to offer. So what does shamrock do? Shows them what they want to see, even though it's a hoax.
Would it have been more responsible to tell them "Sorry, that's as flashy as it gets. If you don't like it well... it's a hacker thing. You wouldn't understand."? Probably. Would it have been as much fun as hoaxing them? No.
The State was the greatest show ever made. Sorry, I just had to say that.
Ever see that movie called Hackers?
(**anti-flame protection activate** No, I do not think hackers is an accurate portrayal of anything to do with "hacking")
The guys on MTV were running around trying to get the "disk" before the cops found it because it had some kind of data on it... sound familiar?
I was just waiting for one of them to say "He hacked the Gibson and now he's in jail."
this is where the party ends, i can't sit here listening to you and your racist friend.. i know politics bore you, but i feel like a hypocrite talking to you and your racist friend... sorry, i had to finish that. :) ziffie might be a giant.
Should this tip us off that this isn't worth front page on Slashdot? Most of the posts are about how stupid MTV or this "hacker" is. Hemos, take Foogle's advice and move on to "more serious news". (Resist the temptation to moderate this up :)
This is a hack in the most classic sence of the word. If I had thought of this and thought I could get MTV to produce my own production I'd have jumped on it in a heartbeat, the only thing I'm angry about it that I didn't think of it first. Obviously his vision didn't come across and that's probably why the tone is so apologetic, it was something of a failure but I love the concept, reality hacking is the best :) :)
I produce video and it's frustrating, any independent film maker will tell you that starting out, you lie, cheat and steal to get the actors, props, editing equipment, you'll spend hours playing rope a dope with police sending them back and forth between people who "have the permit" and try and get your shot in one take before they kick you out. This was almost slick
This man should be commended and held up for the world to see! He pulled a media hack that got a whole cable network show devoted to it. Only Joey Skaggs has done better at this than I know of, and that is because Joey has been pulling these media hacks for years!
3 9489139584959 7980465063
94141592651829395028512312356878594818483935819
8012456989047663620151201231566801865112556408748
Out of curiosity, did any of you actually think this was real? If so, what kind of smoke are you cracking?
If you think you know what the hell is going on you're probably full of shit. -- Robert Anton Wilson
jdube is who
All code and no slashdot makes meersan a dull gal, you know.
We want endless gardens of data, where the bits can flower, flourish and reproduce. -- Andy Mueller-Maguhn
True Life: Sex RX ER meets the Real World as MTV goes behind the scenes at a sexual health clinic.
HA
I faked the whole thing! That was a stunt penis! The stuff on it was a piece of olive loaf.
I watched the MTV special with a critical eye. I had some questions about who was taking themselves seriously.
I've read the follow up letter.
I still have no idea which parts I'm supposed to believe and which I'm supposed to disbelieve.
The statements from the L0pht guys and JP were very short. I'm a fan of the L0pht, and would have liked to have seen more. I'm no fan of JP, but honestly he wasn't on long enough to make himself look bad.
I was suspicious about the "disk thing" having seen Hackers, the movie. I expected that the guys were putting Serena on to some degree, as most hackers (at least the ones who would appear on MTV) love attention. They will put on a show if you give them a chance. Don't forget that at least 2 of the guys allready went to the trouble of getting their own TV show of sorts.
What I want to know is how much was Serena acting and sensationalizing? Was she really shocked that someone knew that she had 2 VM boxes? Was her e-mail really hacked, or did she just screw up her password, or was it all staged?
Hey. Now that's kind of elitist isn't it?
I enjoy an afternoon of American Football and the ESPN recap, and I also love the A&E/History Channel/Sci-FI.
Try not to stereotype people that enjoy televised sports as being dunderheads that won't watch "educational" programing. One can always get around channels you don't want to watch by programing the TV to by-pass them.
If you are getting channels you don't want, contact your cable provider. I know that here in Portland OR it took alot to get some of the channels we wanted (Sci-Fi) so fight to get things taken off the cable.
Bah, I always knew those guys on MTV never had the 31337 LAN kickbanning sk1llZ that I had. :P
Real quote from the show: "I'm gonna kickban your LAN because I can."
emufreak
www.kontek.net/pp
I know. It hurt to read it. My inner spellmeister was apoplectic. However...
His head was obviously exceeding his pinkys' ability to follow. The thought was cogent, even if his delivery was wanting.
He's obviously young, and his response to an intensely bogus situation is what he thought was appropriate. Counter bogosity with even more bogosity. Burst the balloon. Show some truth by blowing the gaskets of the facade machine.
He didn't, however count on the truly astounding stupidity of those who run MTV. (Jesse Camp? HUH? *Real World??* HHUUHH!! WTF!)
He got burned, like so many who venture into the mtv universe. It's all about bucks, sensationalism, perpetuating idiocy in every way possible. Stupid people piss their money away at a faster rate than smart people do.
Simple.
They're gaining, man.
RUN!
Brak: What's THAT?
Thundercleese: A light switch.. of TOTAL DEVASTATION!
I think we should start calling our cable operators and complain about the lack of quality programming on MTV, and demand that they remove MTV from the standard package so we don't have to pay for that crap. I don't want your MTV!
ok..cause of this MTV's jounrnalistic integrity is being questioned...wait a minute WHAT INTEGRITY..from the peeps that brought you the "real world" (7 dumbasses getting free rent who fyte all the time)...and who contuniously play backstreet fags and britny ("make my boobies one more size") spears...what did you expect.?
But - we he really isn't a clueless script kid trying to become famous or something (hey - it gets more press coverage that defacing web sites) then he would have known the difference between a hacker and a cracker and would have used the terms correctly in his article.
--
-- Kernel Panic: Error reading
This is an important, perhaps even landmark event. We all know that the mainstream media doesn't "get it" but now I think it's pretty clear that they simply have no interest in the world as we experience it.
Usually, when these things happen, we just whine about how alternative and non-mainstream our culture is. But I think it's time to seriously consider whether or not the mainstream is actually worth interacting with.
If so, then I think we need to organize a concerted campaign to combat the kind of superficial and distorting content that MTV is pushing.
If not, then we need to seriously think about ways that we can insulate ourselves from the negative impact of things like this MTV "special." Is it time to defend ourselves and our "culture?"
I don't claim to know the answer to this question, but I think it's something important to discuss and consider carefully.
E
Can your IM do this?
I'd love for that to happen, but their target demographic is only interested in cute boys and watching drunken co-eds **paaaaarrttyyyy** on spring break. They aren't interested in such difficult pursuits as listening to good music or thinking.
..you'd avoid the word "spelt" at all costs. Now I have a bad taste in my mouth.. Ugh..
~ Kish
Unfortunately, with the way cable systems are set up, this is next to impossible. There is no picking and choosing of channels (except the premium ones anyway). I am really paying for stuff like ESPN*, MTV*, and PAX, when I never had any interest in their programming. However, I'm required to have those channels to get the ones that I am interested in seeing.
This means that a good portion of my cable bill is spent going to pay for channels I don't want (Golf channel? c'mon!).
All that aside, I'm sure someone spending the enitre day watching ESPN* would say the same thing about A&E, TLC, and SCI-FI.
-- Ever notice that fast-burning fuse looks exactly the same as slow-burning fuse? I didn't... (Edgar Montrose)
I had the misfortune to catch the Hacker show on MTV in a vain attempt at finding some music videos. I could not believe what I saw. I didn't think that there would be anyone, labeling themselves as a hacker, dumb enough to blurt out on national TV that they committed 'computer fraud'. I thought, man this has to be like those Faces of Death flicks. 80% fake and 20% real.
After I read Shamrock's letter I realized that I wasn't far off the mark. Except the 20% real part. This whole special was a farce. It's slander. If this is their idea of journalism how many other stories covering important issues were skewed for the sake of sensationalism?
BTW, I almost busted a gut during the end credits. They showed Sarena Alshults(sp?) being the apparent victim of evil hackers and she stated how violated she felt. Hmm, from what I saw it looked as though she just didn't type in her password correctly, due to the fact she seemed to finally get on her account after repeated attempts. Obviously it's those nosey hacker kids. Damn them.
-- They can have my Mac when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers --
Shamrock simply asserts without corroborative evidence that, "We faked it."
If you were a lame-brained criminal and realized you had been caught on camera, isn't it possible that one of your alibis might be, "Hey, I was just foolin' ya, to make y'all look stupid."
Personally, I would like to believe Shamrock's story. Any organization that would retain someone like Jesse -- a person so amazingly annoying that he can cause nose bleeds at 300 yards -- is, without question, in serious need of reality adjustment (not to mention attitude adjustment). But until I see some corroborative evidence (such as a detailed timeline or affidavits from the police officers), I'm going to take this story with a grain of salt.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
have fun
"Shamrock" makes a good point in his letter: How much of what presented as fact in the media is actually totally fabricated? How much of the daily news is fiction? We really have no way of knowing unless we are really at the scene and know everyone involved.
Mass-media is produced for the 90% of the world's consumers: spoon-fed to these room-temperature IQs who have never had an original thought in their entire lives. It is truly freightening how much of an impact modern media has on public opinion.
He's right though. Well-researched journalism and factual reporting doesn't sell soft drinks.
This person, Shamrock, doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground (yeah I know I am lacking originality but hey - it works). He is covering his ass because he realized he made a mistake. Look at the damn facts:
Shamrock doesn't even know what a hacker is, all of the references made allude towards crackers not hackers. Why was there no effort made to inform MTV from the start that they were actually looking for crackers?
This idiot tried to be someone he was not and as a result managed to f'k up an already badly damaged image, hell, most crackers have somewhat good intentions as well - to share exploits and learn how to stop them. Without crackers how would we know if there is a hole to be breached?
It all boils down to the fact that Shamrock never gives any correct definitions and vaguely states what really happened the same way I blind my boss with bullshit after accidentally nuking a user process I didn't mean to (okay - I probably meant to) with some crap like the ipcs table spilled over into vacuum space.
The guy is covering his ass because he is an idiot and realized he made a mistake - period.
" -- ow my brain hurts again -- "
this was a GREAT mindfuck!
-- your knees hurt, don't they?
that *real* people in various walks of life are not portayed accurately in any media - this goes not only for computer professionals of various degrees but doctors, lawyers, policemen, cooks, etc. I'm sure most police officers go thru each day dealing with at lease one person with TV/Movie inspired misconceptions and takes it in stride. It's gets DRAMATIZED for your entertainment enjoyment, exaggerated, caricaturized beyond recognition. In return I like to imagine all Hollywood producers as something like a Mel Brooks but not as clever. :))
I Think the cliche' media types are trying to promote w/ 'hackerz' is something like an updated plain ol' espianoge spy thriller, cloak and dagger intrigue stuff, smuggling messages thru enemy lines, etc, etc, etc.
Chuck
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Gee, somebody faked hacking for MTV's fake special on hacking so that people with a fake understanding of technology could fake comprehension of the hacker culture. I'm sensing a trend.
kill -9 mtv
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
I applaud Shamrock's actions, just like I applaud the guys who call into news shows with phoney stories. The "media" is so obsessed with sensationalism that they fail to verify anything. They deserve to be taken advantage of. I have basically lost all respect for most "journalists", of course MTV is far from being a serious source of news and information, however, they are behaving in exactly the same way as shows like 60 minutes, 20/20, and virtually all newspapers and news magazines. They take themselves far too seriously. I'm glad that Shamrock did what he did... maybe it will teach MTV (and the rest of the "media") a lesson... but I doubt if it will.
Just to clarify, I also don't think we should glorify him for what he has done. But I can't say I would damn him. I don't have any ethical opinions watching this whole thing. It was a deal between him and MTV. He cheated, MTV lost, but they lost more or less conscious. MTV had every chance to avoid this, it would have been so easy to uncover the truth. This outcome is better IMO than a 14 year old boy ruining his live by breaking into bank computer in front of a running camera.
I believe the media just want to make sure (more or less) that they cannot found guilty for lying. If he had told them the truth, they later wouldn't have been able to present themselves unknowing. If you don't explicitly tell it, they're save.
I don't know whether you have heard about the scandal with the false Hitler's diaries and the german newspaper "Stern", but this story illustrates perfectly what I think about mass media.
This reminds me of a story of some trashy talk show, that's apparantly well known (I don't watch tv, the name of the show didn't stick), that was doing a feature of "one night stands". The story is more or less from the horse's mouth, so to speak, since it was related from my girlfriend's workmate, and the participants were her cousin and a friend.
The story is simple, they were friends and knew each other, but when they heard that this trashy talk show was looking for people who'd had a one-night stand, they called in with a juicy story, which had not even one grain of truth. They were probably selected partly because one was white and the other black, partly based on the story itself, which I didn't hear in detail. When they got on the show, she claimed to have gotten pregnent (he hadn't heard that was part of the plan). Apparantly their "performance" was par for the course on this show, which has a strong reputation for being quite trashy. I am told that people who watch the show know its trash, and watch it more or less because it's trash, but they tend to believe the stories about the people featured on the show.
Their reward... a free plane trip, an all-expenses paid party at a hotel, and they got to be on TV. Apparantly they didn't get anything of value for appearing on the show, such as money, gifts, etc.
Of course, I get the strong impression that Shamrock may be in a bit of trouble from his TV exposure, and wants to make a (legal) explaination for it all. The lack of details about the "plan" don't make the story compelling, as others have mentioned. I read his entire (poorly written) letter, and somewhere I missed the punchline. What was the joke (on MTV) supposed to be??
Rather, I suspect that there's a lot of people who, for one reason or another, really want to be on national TV. Being dishonest and even being represented in a negative light don't seem to be barriers to entry for these poor souls who seem to be willing to do anything to be seem in front of millions of TV viewers.
Paul (AC, I know...)
paul@pjrc.com
The whole special was a joke, and now that the show has been "cracked" by one of its subjects, all I can say is "Ha Ha!". :-P
As for journalistic integrity, when has MTV, MTV news, or any of the other Real World (TM) stuff had integrity? Everything on that network is made up for teeney-boppers.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
"The journalistic integrity of this "special" is under serious question now."
As if it wasn't before?
LDAA #$80 BITA 0x40 BNE END
MTV has been a terrible channel ever since they stopped doing what the original goal was, to play music. I hope that everyone realizes how terrible of a channel MTV is these days and stops watching it. If everyone continues to watch MTV, even though it sucks then everything will continue going the way it is and it'll get even worse(if that is possible). If it took this latest "True Life" special about hacking to make you all realize that kind of shit MTV puts on the air, then something is wrong.. real wrong. MTV will put anything on the air that will draw more people to watching them, without even checking out anything on that show to see if it is *true*. Look at shows like the Real World and Road Rules, do you think any of the shit that happens on there is what REALLY happens? do you think that is all that happens on there, or are there times when everything is fine that they cut out so the viewers don't get bored watching their shit? if everyone keeps giving attention to MTV in ANY FORM, MTV will continue getting worse. I hope one of these days MTV will be back to its original format, music and just music!
i hate Empty-V (MTV) more and more for its lack of originality and thoughtfulness (and lack of cluefulness)
;) )
Kinda like the M$ of the TV universe...not an original bone in their collective bodies (MTV stopped being cool when Headbangers Ball got cancelled
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
As if we didn't know: a kid with a scanner and no clue about computers He's just a media whore. And MTV payed for it.
-vert-
love the penguin
MTV didn't just fail to see that someone was lying, they didn't just cheat on their research. They actively pursued a lie. The people from MTV refused to accept the truth they were presented with until it was changed to conform to their expectations.
There is no difference between this and pure fiction.
These sorts of shows deserve no more credibility than that Blair Witch News thing on the Sci-Fi channel. It's my opinion that the presentation of this type of show, in a context that implies respectability and truthfulness, is a great disservice to the world.
*Sigh. Our innocence and our trust of the authoritative nature of the media will never recover from "The War of the Worlds".
Remember, it's not whether you're cynical or not, it's whether you're cynical enough.
Ben (I hate logging in) Bay
As if MTV's journalistic integrity wasn't in question enough, now this. Perhaps at least it will convince other "mainstream" journalists to verify everything and get some background before they post or write a story like this again.
While by and large MTV programming sucks rocks, a few of their shows are at least genuinely entertaining (unlike the continous Road Rules runs over the Real World specials). For example Daria and Downtown. Hell, Beavis & Butthead were funny in a rather juvenile way - much the same as the Tom Green Show. Am I noticing a trend that only their animated shows are any good here? :P
C'mon folks. We're criticizing MTV for having low journalistic standards. Is this for real? IT'S MUSIC TELEVISION for crying out loud. I don't care how "polished" the programs are, nobody in their right mind should take anything on TV (much less MTV) at face value. People keep complaining about how the media "brainwashes" people or frames the range of discussion along safe lines or whatever Chomsky'esque criticism happens to be in vogue these days. Well how about this: when you watch TV - THINK a little bit. It's not that hard. But I'm preaching to the converted. Victor "silence - I'm watching television" Ng
Seems like they should stick to showing more of 'Beach MTV' ... sorry I'd rather watch bikini clad women than a news piece on hackers any day!
MTV has lost its touch with specific users who found rock music to be tastefull.
uh... users??
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
. . . and I'll say it again. What the hell were you expecting from MTV?
If you want good, thorough, intelligent, unbiased journalism, you don't go to MTV, you go to. . . um. . . any ideas?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The bottom line is that Shamrock intentionally misrepresented himself in order to get on national TV. That's so utterly pathetic, that I can't even believe anyone would go to bat for him. I'm no fan of MTV - not at all - I just think that this script-kiddie is trash and shouldn't be treated as if he had some sort of lofty goal in doing all of this.
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
This is a member of the prestigus ACM? what has the world come to.
next we'll have "You SUX" posts from members @IEEE.org sigh
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
MTV is, of course, greatly at fault. They obvisously didn't take the time to check the credibility of their sources, which is something every journalist should do for everything.
But I can't help but get a sense that MTV and/or some media outlets can't do right by anyone's eyes around here. I have my gripes with both, but they're not evil incarnate. Imagine for a second if they were given factual, accurate information by these people instead of lies. Maybe it wouldn't have been "interesting" enough for MTV to air, but then again, maybe MTV would have aired the truth.
Except then, with the hacker community being represented accurately, nobody would have anything to complain about, and we just can't have that.
"...the police (which we had paid off) showed up and arrested our counterparts ..."
While IANAL (but I watch them played on tv), I would be willing to bet that this is against the law in all municipalities in the US (except perhaps Chicago where there is a longstanding tradition (a joke folks!)).
NT is based on the premise that anyone who can manipulate a mouse can administer a system. Huh?!?
MTV was not about this type of BS. They represented something they are not.. Music Television. Oh well. They used to rock to. Playing that 'music' stuff all the time. Chalk another one up to greed.
It's nice to see that someone stood up to fool MTV and show that you really can't believe what the media says anymore.
;)
Wouldn't it have been interesting if MTV had actually done their homework and had a good special on hacking? (Let's not hope that someone from MTV notices this comment and tries to make another show).
emufreak
www.kontek.net/pp
MTV hackers do not suck. All the 31337 h4x0rs have acutally make my life easier. I was bored one night sitting on IRC and some loser came in spouting 13370 talk about how he was going to "0w|\| 0|_|r 80x3z" (own our boxes), and I got to thinking... nobody in thier right minds can even read this twisted crap they call english. Then it hit me. This is the ultimate encrypted language. I went to work immediatly. I created an encryption program that converts real english into h4x0r-ese. I use it all the time. Especially when I write e-mail to my buddies at work talking about my boss or how incompetent some people are. I love 31337 h4x0rz. They are pioneers in cryptology. They also cure boredom
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
This is the sort of thing you come to expect from MTV. Like I said before, they should just go back to showing music videos, what the channel was originally created for.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Since I did not actually see the MTV "special" on hackers, I cannot declare that half-hour a total waste. ;-) After moderating some replies here on /. however, it became clear that the show was nothing more than any other MTV "special"-- wasted airtime. (Yep, I'm taking a leap in believing in the majority's opinion.)
Shamrock does have a point about television being hollow, etc. I have to inspect the news with a critical eye (even what I screen on the 'net, too), since there exists no unbiased news source. The lengths that reporters will go to is astonishing. =/
On a side note, I'm happy to see that HNN is powered by OpenBSD. Keep those script kiddies busy!
Now, aint that a suprise ?
This isn't a big surprise, is it? The mainstream (ala MTV) simply don't get us. This will NEVER change. FP
Once again MTV seems to prove it is only interested in promoting FUD.
Gee...why do I even get my hopes up?!?
Way to go. This is culture jamming at its best, and I think that Shamrock went about this in a very fair manner. As his letter points out, he first tried to inform the MTV people, but when they wanted sentationalism, he just gave it to them.
The result is, MTV is being slammed for their research, and people are getting a bit more suspicious of what they see on television. That's wonderful, and I don't see anything criminal in that.
And again, it shows that hackers are not to be trifled with. That was better than any web page cracking anyone could have done.
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
"I think it would be very hard for anyone with a brain to take MTV seriously now and I hope noone does."
Anyone who takes anything on TV seriously needs counceling or a couple dozen IQ points. It's also interesting to not that he says this after pointing out that MTV caters to the lowest common denominator - which, IMO, is not someone with "brains".
Our mass media is just the obvious outcome of supply and demand. Vote with your pocketbook.
Think of it this way. If all MTV did all day was play music, then we'd be subjected to hearing Puff Daddy, Jennifer Lopez, Britney friggin' Spears, and those damned Boy Bands over and over and over again. Simple fact is that their programming is crap, and what little music that they actually play is total crap. In general music nowadays sucks. I don't need to be reminded of that by having it programmed 24 hours a day. On the other hand, this season of the Real World is almost as good as the first season and Tom Green's kinda funny. Ah, screw it! DOWN WITH MTV!
C'mon, are we that surprised? When was the last time your saw or read a report produced by the media, about which, you knew a thing or two that was not terribly distorted. I am truly astonished sometimes at how wrongly they can reassemble a few buzz words and images to produce a Frankenstein parody of what they are reporting on. A good chunk of slashdot is devoted to the extra goofy constructions of the media. One of you nerds has to come up with a good fact gathering bot that constructs unbiased news for its users. Until then I will continue to watch MTV news for its extra creative, plastic virtual reality which has higher production values than 60 minutes.
With my poor abilities to pretent being a common criminal, if faced with a problem, "Shamrock" described -- a bunch of MTV journalists who can't go away without something outrageous even after being pointed to all decent sources of information -- I would rather make something like:
"In underground I am known as Blue Sucker, and this room is where I do all my hacking. This is my five computers that I have stolen from companies -- it's very easy to do by pretending to be a janitor. Oh, sorry, only two of them, most expensive ones, with K6-2-475, are stolen, and these two I have found in a dumpster -- see, this one has two fans because it has two processors, and this one has a big hole because someone came there before me and taken a CD drive. And this one I have bought at some garage sale, paid $25 for it, however it's garbage, can't be used to break into anything more than 50 miles away.
I live here alone, and have to pay rent for the whole place -- it's dangerous to have roommates when you have that much sensitive information around. Some my friends say that it's a waste of money, and it's easier to break into the records of some real estate company and make something disappear, but the problem is, I don't want to have a place where no one does repairs, phone lines can be cut at any moment, and neighbors can become suspicious.
I don't have a job, but I don't need it because I can always get enough money by breaking into banks. It's simple -- see: first you need to find their web site. You just go into the bank, take their booklet, and they have the address there. This is a booklet, this is the address, now I take from the address part between slashes, and give it into nslookup. nslookup is an 31337 hacker's tool, it gives four numbers that allow to access that bank's computer. You know, there are four digits in PINs for bank's ATM -- but banks don't rely on just four digits, they use four numbers between 0 and 255 to get more security. Then you feed those four numbers to traceroute, another hacker's tool. traceroute is even more 31337 than nslookup, it allows you to trace everything that comes into that computer. See those numbers and times? And on the last line, there is the number I have asked, and one time mark is replaced by a star. This is because they use Solaris, see -- sun is a star, so star in this line means Solaris. This means, we now can access the computer. To do that we don't need any special programs, just telnet. See, telnet to the same number that was in traceroute, port 80. It doesn't answer by itself, so we need to send first command blindly -- "GET /". Now it answered, but disconnected me immediately. This is bad, they could detect me, but if I'll erase logs soon enough, noone will notice. It looks like they use HTTP -- see how many time it said "http" in the reply , so trying again, now asking "GET / HTTP/1.0". Now computer didn't disconnect me, so I was right, but it didn't answer anything either. "User-Agent: Blue Sucker" -- still nothing. It's safe to use "Blue Sucker" there -- they have no idea who I am, and everybody already knows that someone called Blue Sucker exists. "Connection: Keep-Alive" -- nothing. Umm... what about sending nothing? Pressing "enter" again -- it answered, and didn't disconnect me. Now I can request transactions to accounts in another already cracked bank, call that bank from a payphone, and after four or five transfers send money to my account.
This thing probably won't work anymore after I'll try it two or three times, but for now I don't have to worry about the rent.
No, I don't want to buy a new box and replace these two stolen computers, it's impossible to buy a good box now in a store. However I will trade them for one Solaris box, I want to use Solaris box to break into other Solaris boxes, so those boxes will think that it's just another Solaris box on their network. You know, when I use PC I pretend to be a PC in their office, and PCs aren't allowed to make transactions as large as other Solaris boxes in other banks."
Then if they will show that it will at least make a statement that won't require an excuse.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
AntiOnline, who apparently acted as consultants for the MTV Special, Posted A Story about Shamrock's statement.
It comes as no surprise to me that the media skews stories. What is a shock is just how bad this guy's spelling is. Atrocious.
Did he 'hack' MTV?
The article re-iterates what we've known all along.
If you can actually imagine how much they've screwed up the stuff that we know about, just think of how much stuff MTV (and other media orginisations) screw up that we don't even enough about to confirm they are lying!
ugh, the translation from my brain to english didn't quite work to well.
Sosumi. just kidding. DONT!
No, no, and no.
So it was all made up. So what? Jerry Springer's been doing that for years.
After all the bad press here last week flaming MTV for their protrayal of hackers a "punk kids" etc etc... We are now told that the whole thing was staged by hackers who tried to discredit MTV. Are we believing this? Is this letter for real ( or just an attempt to cover their asses)? Did it really discredit MTV? Is anyone who believed the "hacker" story going to find out about the hoax? Sadly I think the answer to all of these is no. I realize this post will likely attract flame, but was I the only one who got kinda a sick feeling reading the article? I'm not sure if what was done (assuming the article's validity) was any better than what was shown on TV. So now, instead of "hackers" breaking the law and cracking boxes, we have "hackers" who are providing false information and deceiving the media. Which is worse... the fake message of MTV... or the fact that "Shamrock" not only discredited MTV, but himself and other "hackers" -Ion