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Distance Learning Recommendations?
Coventry asks: "I left college two years ago. At the time, I was actually on staff and going to class for free - working on the in-house network. I left for better money, but now I want to finish my degree. Now, I can`t go back to school full time, I need to work, so my questions is several fold: (more -->)
"What accredited colleges or universities offer a full Bachelors in Computer Science through Distance Learning? How much do they cost? What are the policies on transfered credits, and 'Challenge for Credit' (testing out of a course for full credit) ? Has anyone else looked into this? I know that I want to teach on the college level at some point, and I cant seem to get my foot in the door, reguardless of my other credentials, at certain big and blue company. Any ideas? I do NOT want a buy-a-degree type thing. I'm more then willing to put in the effort and go through the course load, but I need to do it remotely, and preferably at my pace (fairly fast!)"
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Try the Rochester Institute of Technology. They do lots of distance learning stuff. Pretty decent courses, too. http://www.rit.edu
Just thought I'd get two cents in early... :)
-c.
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Casey
More scratches on the cave wall, thanks be to anonymity.
Honest question to everyone: Is a degree necessairy in the business today?
I myself study and hope to have my master's degree "real soon", but different companies suggested to me to quit studying and start working already.
Of course, I don't want to quit when I am almost done, all those semesters I have done so far would instantly be wasted if I stop studying when it only takes a little bit of additional time to have the degree.
Then again, I meet former university students who started studying with me. They quit, some of them years ago, now run their own company (or work in high profile jobs) and it doesn't really seem to be a problem for them that they don't have a degree.
So what's the opinion?
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You may like my a cappella music
I was a chemistry major at a good technical university literally recruited right "out"---sold out---of school. Although I'd only a handful of credits left to finish, I have no regrets but share your wish to follow through for it's own sake.
The best program I've looked at is the University of Phoenix Online distance degree program. I intend to matriculate soon unless I see a better opportunity (thanks for asking this question for me).
See their main page, and also the Distance Education page.
Im in a similar situation, I use Athabasca University from Alberta (Canada eh!) They let you start courses anytime in the year, and they you can rip through them at your own speed.
their website is very extensive, and they respond to email in less than a day. course prices range a bit, but mine have averaged around $400CDn but that includes all materials, like text books and studyguides... at the current exchange rate, that isnt to shabby. =)
They have been reviewed as being one of the more credible distance education universities (i dont have the name of the last set of reviews that i read, sorry)
Many Universities and colleges offer their own distance education courses. Still more computer Science faculties are offering courses that are directed via the web.
Most Universities/colleges have a pre-approved transfer credit lists... ask the records services people or a course advisor. That might give you a good place to start from, especially if you want to attend a specific institute full-time at some point. (All the courses I take have been pre-approved for transfer credit with my od university, it really simplifies things)
An old sig
a bit drops in
Sound of ascii
That would be "...more than willing..."; don't skip the English courses :-)
Seriously, I dropped out too and have sometimes wondered what a good solution for the sheepskin might be. Not that I've had it matter since...
Unfortunately, this is a Masters program, but since you're in industry, they may be willing to allow you in. It can't hurt to ask.
I've also recently received a pamphlet in the mail from the University of Phoenix about their online BS degrees, of which CS was one. Sorry, I'm feeling too lazy to go downstairs and find the URL.
Good luck!
-Omar
I'm looking into the same thing. The University of Phoenix has a full CIS degree, and is completely web based. I have no clue about the quality of the course work. You can do the whole thing quickly with 6-8 week semesters. Classes are expensive: $1000+. I'm hoping to see a lot more competition in the next year so I'll procrastinate (like I've been doing for the last 10 years).
But, the percentage of the population who is self-lead does tend to do pretty well in this area. For that topic, may I suggest reading the textbook and trying to test out of as many classes as possible. Transfer credits are iffy, and you should check on their acceptability towards your degree OFTEN. Many of my friends have been bitten by taking classes that WERE good for transfer credits, but by the time they finished the transfer hours, were no longer accepted by their school.
Watch your ass, talk only to the people in the department who not only know but have authority, and make sure they remember you! If they told you that the credits would be valid and they remember that when you ask again and find out you can't transfer them, you have leeway.
Transfer credits sound easy, but be _very_ careful and persistant.
Good luck to you man.
--
Insanity Takes Its Toll. Please Have Exact Change
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
Try Charter Oak State College, CT Also check "John Bears Guide to Non-Traditional Education"
I think its cool that you want to go back to school. And it does seem as though distance learning programs in general (though I don't know of any great ones in specific) are advancing by leaps and bounds from well known universities down to small community colleges. However, you expressed an interest in teaching at the university level and stated that you were having trouble getting your foot in the door. If this is your end goal, I'm not sure if simply obtaining a degree or doing it via distance learning is the right path to take. It seems that most of the universities I have had experience with tend to be somewhat incestuous, and it seems logical that getting your degree in the manner you suggest might throw you out of the loop even more, while opportunities might go to less qualified, but better know students. I know that many doors have been opened for my at the university level because I've built a repoire with professors and admninsitrators. While I guess this is possible to do over the phone/via e-mail, in my mind nothing beats a good person to person chat as far as getting what you want out of people. Just wanted to give you something to consider... Best of luck with whatever route you take.
due to the newness of distance learning programs, it is very unlikely that you'll be able to get a teaching position at a college level. (I'm assuming a professorship or assistant professorship) For something like that, you need graduate work anyways and usually a Ph.D.
The Globewide Network Academy maintains a catalog of over 17,000 distance learning courses and programs. These are from both informal and accredited institutions. So, you can either learn about something that interests you or find a place to go to college remotely.
When I was in Sydney last year, I ran into some folks at an XML conference that were pushing the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology's then-new all-online certificate and degree programs. The program seems pretty solid, and the University is a hotbed of XML work. They have since been marketing to me pretty hard, and both my conversations with them and the materials portray it as a no-bullshit all-web-based program for BS, MS, and PhD in technical fields. Check it out the online program here.
While it seems all well and good, can anyone who has actually attended a program there comment on it? RMIT seems more serious than the current wave of schools using the shovelware method of developing online course offerings. Is it as good as it appears?
I think not...(*poof*)
I don't know your exact situation, but I went to school at night for 2-1/2 years, while working (enlisted scum in the U.S. Navy, actually.) This was late 1990 - early 1993. I got a BSCS. It's called National University. At the time, it was touted as being the third largest private educational institution in the country. They were in California and Arizona at the time, although I have no idea what they have done in the meanwhile.
Any major urban center should have something like this. It's not as good as MIT, (very light in the math department, for instance) but the classes are all taught by people working in the field, actually using the things they teach while at their day jobs.
If you're still reading: The schedule was two nights a week (M/W or T/Th) from 5:30 - 10:00pm, and every other Saturday for 8 hours. One class a month. Started off with Pascal, quickly switched to C, then classes on compiler design, databases, assembler, hardware design, and a 3-month long senior project at the end.
They gave me credit for just about every college level class I had ever taken, as long as I could provide a transcript, and I ended up needing 24 classes to graduate - with each class being somewhere between a 3 - 5 credit hour class at a regular university, I imagine. I seem to remember it was 7 elective and 17 'core' classes. The classes were $495 each at the time.
It may not have as much cachet as MIT, CalTech, U of Waterloo, etc. but I can talk the talk well enough that I don't think it's ever mattered.
Hope this helped.
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Check out the alt.education.distance FAQ - pretty much everything is in there. Make sure your course is from a Regionally Accredited institution. The rest are merely degree mills in disguise. At all costs avoid any 'degree' from a xtian / baptist college! Hope this helps. Treval
In the workplace, it's true that performance is more important than degrees, but in academia it is exactly the opposite.
If you want to teach, I would recommend taking courses at a well-known University. If you have an idea of where you would like to teach, take courses there so you can get your foot further in the door by developing personal relationships with the local people in power.
To get a teaching job, anything you can do to improve your image as someone who appreciates traditionl learning is well worth it. Taking distance learning courses will only help you get a job teaching in a distance learning center.
Good Luck,
Sandy
Really.. I picked up C++ in about 4 months (the basics now, people) and went on to write a 1500 line program (mp3db - get it @ freshmeat). How'd I do that? Simple .. I bugged the crap out of all my programmer friends for algorithm books, I literally inhaled C++ Primer Plus, etc.
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Is a Canadian(?) organization specializing in distance learning. I had to take one or two courses online to get the required credits for my degree (~2 years ago). This was done in Canada at a local university college and IIRC there were people from all over the province in the courses.
I don't suspect that OLA is available in your area, but they might have associations elsewhere. The University I went to is called UCFV (check www.ucfv.bc.ca) and is able to transfer a lot of courses to major universities - ie. do your basic courses for cheap at a local college, then go do your remaining higher level ones somewhere "important".
As far as Online courses go however, I found it difficult to stay on top of the course with those things. There weren't any formal meeting times organized, just get online and d/l your grades and new homework, and don't forget to check the message board type idea. I found it difficult to motivate myself to recognize it as a "real" course while I also had 4 other courses per semester. I also found there wasn't a lot of info in the course material as such - lots of air, 'course that could have been due to the instructor preping the thing too...
Anywho, you might try to find a local university and go for transferable credits or alternatively a 'brand name' one which has a distance learning program in place. If you go the Distance learning route, be sure to thoroughly check out their program, and try to talk to some people who've been through it. It seems there are a lot of fly-by-night techy colleges springing up these days - be careful of them, some don't have the financial backing to deliver even a full year of their program (as a few of my friends found out).
Anywho, best of luck
I used to have a cool sig.
Based in Athabasca, Alberta, Canada, Athabasca University is an accredited, correspondence based University and offers (among other things) a Bachelor of Science in Computing and Information Systems degree.
Courses have a six month (maximum) length and no minimum. If required, you can purchase extensions to the courses as well.
Transfer credits are examined on a course by course basis. You'll need to send in a transcript of your previous college experience. I believe most of the courses can be challenged.
There are a few rumors floating around that Athabasca U may be starting a Master's Degree program in Comp Sci as well, but nothing official has come out to confirm that yet.
Main site is located at http://www.athabascau.ca, and here's a direct link to the Bachelor of Comp Sci page.
You may also want to browse this page at a 0 threshold, as an AC pointed out another possibility. (I'd moderate him up, but then I wouldn't be able to post this.)
Kwil
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Very good question, I am in a similar situation. I am working full time, and the only education I have been doing is working on my Certifications by my self, I have been interested for some time now about going back and finishing my 3 years of CS. I just don't feel right spending the time and money I did for something I still want to do, but not doing it.
If you really want to teach you will have to actually go to the university just so the people there can see you. And you would probably have to start as a teaching assistant which means you will do all the leg work for some other professor. It doesn't sound like you have the time to do this if you wan to keep your full time job. IMO the BS is worth it only if you cann't take the upper level classes without it. I learned a lot in my upper level classes but I probably could have taken them day 1 and done just as well. As for the industry it depends on the company you will see people who post that you don't need the degree and people who post that you need the degree, at the end the issue is what you want. Getting a Masters just for $$$ is not worth it and again IMO if you want to learn more you can always buy books so the Masters in only usefull if you don't think you can learn on your own or if you want someone to explain concepts to you.
Vidi, vici, veni. (I saw, I conquered, I came)
You have asked, in your "Ask Slashdot" piece,
"What accredited colleges or universities offer
a full Bachelors in Computer Science through
Distance Learning?"
"How much do they cost?"
"What are the policies on transfered credits?"
While I agree that what you have asked are important, I feel that you haven't asked the MOST important question of all -
"Which university offers the BEST COMPUTER SCIENCE COURSE which teaches not the MUNDANE, but the UP-TO-THE-MINUTE stuffs that can be truly useful in REAL WORLD, with the teachers who can REALLY TEACH?"
You see, you can go to the cheapest university and get a piece of paper, but you may not get ANYTHING useful for the TIME (remember, TIME _IS_ MONEY !!) you have invested there.
You can go to the MOST EXPENSIVE college and still GET NOTHING.
You can go to a university where you can transfer ALL YOUR PREVIOUS CREDITS, but then, you may end up LEARNING NOTHING out of this experience.
I am in a position of hiring, and most often, the newly minted college grads often have NO IDEA what the REAL WORLD OF COMPUTING is all about.
I rather hire HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS who do know their way in and out of the systems that I want them to work on, rather than the college grads who have to RELEARN EVERYTHING.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I'm sure it's pretty expensive, but it certainly isn't some hokey Buy-A-Degree!
Here's a link to the Spring Quarter course offerings: Continuing Education
Athabasca University
1 University Drive
Athabasca, Alberta
Canada
T9S 3A3
(800) 788 9401 (US and Canada)
(780) 675 6100
www.athabascau.ca
Comprehensive, flexible, but maybe not well known or respected enough...
This thread will sooner or later arrive at the big question ..... Is a degree necessary for IT professionals? Don't we learn it on the job, and not in the classroom?
... tough it out, finish the degree. You'll still learn the skills in or out of school, and be that much more marketable.
Most of the people who say skip school, and get the experience have a valid point. Most employers would rather have the skills than the degree. In fact, they even tend to try and talk you out of finishing school to come work for them.
Why?? Because they don't have to pay you as much as they would have to if you had a degree. Think about it... Salaries rise exponentially with the type of degree (bachelors, masters, phd's). Employers know that people with degrees and skills cost more than those lacking the degree (I know this for a fact, my company is going through this right now).
My advice
-Pika
I have been thinking a lot about the education system and it's structure lately after I had an interesting experience. I was majoring in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering here at the University of Minnesota, and now that the semester is more than half over I decided to peruse the web pages of the Computer Science courses that I would be taking later. I looked through their homework, their midterms, the notes, etc. and over all was not very impressed.
Day after day I skip about 80% of my classes as the exact same thing that is taught in lecture is almost word for word in the book.
What's to stop us, the Open Source community, from creating these very same textbooks (which could be written much better as often times these $100+ textbooks are written to supplement lecture material, therefore being clumsy in many areas)? Once they're online not only would students save thousands of dollars, but it would be a great step in the direction of making education available to everyone regardless of economic class.
At South Dakota State their lectures are broadcast on the dorm's cable network. Why not tape these lectures? It's not like in today's generic university there is any "interaction" in a 300+ student lecture hall. Now that bandwidth is getting cheaper and cheaper, these could be online as well for those that "need" to see someone doing and saying the material.
It seems extremely inefficient for professors to teach the same thing semester after semester if not several times a day. The same material, over and over. A bit inefficient by today's technological advances, no?
I want to create a whole new model of schooling, free schools, so bad! So, why not?
From my expirience, it's a good option if and when ...
1) You have already gone through a BS degree in person (!remotely). So I would say it's good for Masters (what I'm doing now) or maybe some extra classes here and there but no degree (continuing education).
2) You work well by yourself. It seems obvious, but if you're the type that needs to study/do homeworks in groups, asks a lot of questions in class, talks to the professor a lot in his office, distance learning might be a problem.
3) The Distance Learning program is "good". Where I work (and in Florida) there's a program called FEEDS (Florida Enginnering E(something) Distance Learning). It's a program that lets you do masters for most engineering type degrees. The classes are provided live via satellite (the optimal case) or delayed by tape (my case). This is a good program , and I would recommend it to anyone in Florida. (I'm sure there's something like this elsewhere).
4) You have a real job (and they pay for it). If you're flipping burgers at McDonalds, get off your lazy butt and go to school in person ! 'Nuff said.
- sigs are for wimps.
I ended up signing up with AICS.
http://www.aics.edu. Of course I did it when I was 18, and I took the BS/MS combined program. I'm still working on it, and it's a few years later. The books are ancient now, but the coursework is still relevant (C/C++/Java). I don't know, I think looking back on it, it was a mistake. I could have gone onto a real school, and I did. I just had this nagging thing in the back of my mind. At the time it seemed like a good idea, but I understand now, that the sacrifice you make to get to college, and going to a real school, is worth it. Professionally, spiritually, and educationally.
I always wondered, and never got around to asking. How real is the degree? If you say it's a distance learning thing, does it automatically invalidate whatever you learned? Does it mean much at all? I hate to confess, but I'd rather graduate from a real school, so as I have time, I work on this degree, while going to classes at a real college. (read, a building with real computers, obnoxious teachers, and the occasional babe).
My only negative encounter so far? I wouldn't try to get a Doctorate out of this, because that Master's isn't going to be worth very much, trying to apply to a Post-Graduate program.
Someone else (several someone else's) have mentioned the issue of requiring a degree. It's true, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Once the Internet boom dries up, and those webmasters who can command a 6 figure salary, have a hard time getting contracts. Things are going to have to change. Industry trends look good, but it's almost stupid to not get a degree, as that puts you in the position to work in management (with the suits), where the money really is. (Of course, you could do it the dot com way, and found your own company and make 20 Million, and screw the degree, but that's somewhat rare).
What you need to get into a good company is a full, real education and real experience. Technical traning won't cut it because real programming and real projects aren't just about techncial expertise. Being able to communicate well verbally and in writing is one of the single most important parts of software development, and good managers know that. Other important things are working within an institutional culture, dealing with different kinds of people at different skill levels, juggling different responsibilities and projects, etc.. Distance learning doesn't teach you or expose you to any of these things.
Most CS classes, in and of themselves don't either, but going through a full degree program (and all those damn core classes do have a purpose!) at a major university will expose you to all these things, as will working in the real world on difficult projects.
Truthfully, if I were a boss looking for a programmer to join my team, a philosophy or music major from a top school looks better than somebody with technical credentials from a third rate school, and experience looks even better still.
plus we have a dope irc channel!! #rit in the y2k.
Check out this website. It's headed up by a friend of mine. It gives some pretty good info about distance education.
----- this is my sig, do you like it?
It seems to me that the most indispensable undergrad degree is an engineering degree, as it is one requirement in many places to legally call yourself an engineer (which has special legal advantages).
Does anyone know how to get an engineering/AppSci degree by distance ed?
I quit school 2 years ago. I was pursuing a MIS degree. I went into UNIX admin work. I found that not going to school does give you a disadvantage and Im going back part-time in the spring semester. The main thing that I lost by not going was organizational skills. This is possibly the best thing that College teaches people as I have seen. It took me about two years of working to finally get some of those organizational skills together. Now I am still behind but almost near full organization in work related things, the social side is all over the place :).
After now being caught up I wonder why I still have to take all of those classes that dont teach me much but give me organizational skills. I want a business degree now since I have the techie side down pretty well. It sucks to go through these classes but to move up to a director level you usually need one, at least where I live in Massachusetts!
I wish I could say that I think a degree is not necessary but what it gives you also is a piece of paper, or a reward for 4 years of work and something that says, "Hey I can actually work and work well!"
One thing you have to remember is the difference between credits and classes.
I took a couple semesters off of my current school(University of Pittsburgh) and decided to take a couple community college classes in the mean time.
The community college advertised until they were blue in the face that their credits tranfer over to Pitt. They do. But their classes didn't.
I took a calculus course at the community college. So when I went back to Pitt, they said that they would take the credits BUT, you still have to take our calculus class because the class doesn't transfer over and you need it for the other math classes.
So, basicly, the class was useless. So even though I took a calculus class at the CC, and Pitt took the credits, I still had to take a calculus class because they didn't take the CLASS as the prereq. to get into Calc. 2
So, your best bet would be to go to where you want to finnish, and see what distance learning courses they take, and choose the best from them. You may even find out they may not take ANYTHING that wasn't learned in a classroom enviroment. Transfering credits and classes differs GREATLY from school to school.
I know that if I would have went to Pitt and got the full information BEFORE I went to the CC, I would have saved a couple hundred bucks and more then a few hours of work.
Deakin University http://www.deakin.edu.au/ is really big on off-campus. I am off-campus myself, doing the Bachelor of Computing (Computer Science/Software Development). The school of Computing and Mathematics is here: http://www.cm.deakin.edu.au/.
They offer off-campus all over the world, and I know of one person last semester that was in California. Check them out...
-Fascist
The Open University in the UK: http://www.open.ac.uk/ Do all sorts of distance learning degree's including Computer Science. Jamie.
for your advice.
I have heard opinions both ways. It's interesting how passionate they are in either direction. One grain of salt keeps coming up that I do not see mentioned here. I'm told that distance education is a hot coffee-klatch topic with traditional academe. Many professors are paranoid and administrators livid with the revenue and census these programs generate. They will abet a "whorehouse" reputation at any opportunity. (I don't know personally, yet.)
I'm certainly reconsidering U o' Phoenix and will be sure to sample course materials.
I have a PhD in another engineering field (chemical) from a well-known university, and am getting tired of the lack of opportunities and shrinking R&D organizations in the industry I work in, even though I've been pretty successful overall. I've done a lot of hacking, running small networks and so on, sold some software as shareware etc. but don't have any formal CS coursework to point even though many of my ChE course required some programming. I would like to change fields even though I know for the first few years I would probably take a pay cut. My own field is just rehashing 20-30 year old technologies, and you can see the field drying up. What would /. folks recommend that I do? I've looked at CS curricula, and from what I see it looks like I've got more of the maths, numerical analysis, etc. in my background than any MS CS graduate would have (My PhD minor was in math, which gives me an equivalent to a MS in Math) - what I don't have are the formal software engineering methods. Would certifications help? Or are there crossover training programs that would be useful?
I don't agree with this comment, I think your level of success will hinge both on the quality of the implementation the University/Institution is offering and your own motivation and temperament. I am the type who can quite easily sit down with a text and pore over the examples and learn on my own. Others have difficulty with not being in a classroom style environment. I think you have to ask yourself which type you are to know if that style of education will work for you. I would also like to bump up to a Msc CompSci and am shopping around for a suitable providor. Of course I would also like to get an MBA too....! but there is only so much time in a week.
-A.
Those who don't study history are doomed to hear this stupid saying.
.... and it is a really good program if it is executed right.
I've been told by some people that out West, UoP's requtation is better since they have been around for 25 years there...
The main problem is not the program or the course content, or even the faculty, who is required to work full-time in the fields they teach, but with the administration...it is impossible to get a hold of people sometimes and there are far too few counselors available as compared to the number of students. Faculty and students quit on a fairly regular basis because the administration is so bad...I'm likely to get my BS from UoP and then move to Central Michigan, which offers a Masters program for information technology in a similar format....
The sessions are 5-8 weeks long, 4 hours a week (one session per week). You also are required to be in a study group, which meets for a couple hours a week to complete group assignments (this is how you get the minimum # of hours and still be accredited)
It qualifies for loan purposes as "full time" enrollment status, too.
My journal has hot
Learning is a fine thing.Learn something new
daily.Learn till the day you die.
You want to teach at a college level.The
answer is obvious.Give up.
You are appearantly very busy,too busy to
attend regular classes.Your language skills are
sadly lacking and as such you have no business
teaching anyone.
As the consumer of a higher education I
already have to contend with absentee professors,
tenured morons and liberals pushing agendas as
fact.I don't need anyone lecturing me who is unable to appropriatly express themselves.I the
consumer deserve better.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Columbia has a good program. It's a real university, which means its a lot of real work. It's definately going to require some time and effort on your part. It's also pretty hard to get in.
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
I actually work for a university as the webmaster responsible for our online distance learning department. We don't offer any kind of CS degree, so my opinion is only biased by my own prejudices. These are also just my personal opinions. Now, to the questions I may be able to help you answer...
> What are the policies on transfered credits, and 'Challenge for Credit' (testing out of a course for full credit) ?
Every program is accredited by one or more accrediting bodies. There is no such thing as "fully accredited". There are only agreements between colleges and accrediting agencies on what a course or program is *worth*. Therefore, if you plan on transferring credits between institutions you will need to contact the destination institution to find out if that course (and be specific that it is a DL course) will transfer and how the credits will be treated (i.e. if and how they can be applied toward the degree).
>I do NOT want a buy-a-degree type thing. I'm more then willing to put in the effort and go through the course load...
I would not recommend Phoenix. They are the most together, have the most courses, the most degrees, the best marketing, and are pretty high on customer service. However, they are also the most expensive, most commercial (as in for-profit-mercenary), and least interested in providing a good education. They can get you your degree - though not an education - and they will make sure you pay for it.
In the *realm* of distance learning Maryland and Colorado are good schools. (I'd like to think we are too, but I'm biased and we don't offer CS anyhow.)
Also, watch out for programs that make you use *special* software to access their classrooms or that outsource their online materials. A lot of this software is terrible. If the university doesn't have or is not willing to commit the resources to develop their own online classrooms then they probably aren't ready to deliver at a distance. Think about it: do would you outsource your core business functions?
<rant>This software/outsourcing course creation thing chaps my beans... it's whole purpose is to allow the instructors to create courses on their own, so the university doesn't have to make a large investment in actually supporting the development, the faculty, or the students. Don't get me wrong, the instructors are always experts in their fields, but is it really reasonable to expect them to be experts in multimedia development and online delivery as well? They don't even write books without a team of editors and graphic designers to support them! How can you expect them to be experts at web and media design and the tools they require? Is it reasonable to think we can *dumb* the process down that far and still produce a quality product? I don't think so either... no wonder DL is getting a bad name. A good course can only be created by a team that includes experts in design, programming, and GUI as well as experts on the subject matter.</rant>
-Computers hate being anthropomorphized.
Others have thrown universities out there, so here's another, Illinois Tech. Here's what I know:
1. Top ranking as an engineering school. When I checked out schools for CS, it was #17 in the nation (forget who ranked).
2. Has distance learning centers in various countries. I believe Africa and Brazil are two, but I don't remember. Increasing. Only university expanding in this way.
3. Has IIT TV, which lets others watch the classes and call in questions to the teacher. This is during class - realtime. These students must take the same exams, quizzes, and labs. They can also come to classes if they wish.
I don't know much... but its better than ZD University or what ever garbage is out there.
"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue
First, I ranted on another post. You may want to check that.
;-)
As for the differing views:
Administration- They see online courses as a huge revenue generator. They *think* they'll be able to have one instructor teach hundreds (thousands?) of students simultaneously, without having to spend a lot of money on buildings, equipment, etc. This is (of course) totally false. It has been my impression that the amount of work it takes to teach a course (properly) online is directly proportional to the number of students. Unlike a traditional classroom, where most interaction is in plain view, online courses require a lot of one on one communication between the faculty and the student. If you have 100 students, you have 100x as much email than if you have 1 student.
Faculty (camp #1)- They fear online classrooms for the same reason administration likes it; they think it will take their jobs. These are the luddites. They know what they are doing, they've always done it this way, and the new way is worse! (yeah, right... and the Internet is a fad - soon we'll go back to mimeographs because that was so much better.)
Faculty (camp #2)- These are the people that *think* they know how to do all this. They'll use some POS software and create a message board, maybe a chatroom and a Real video clip, then post their syllabus online and think they've just re-invented education. These are the zealots. They don't realize what they don't know about the technology, or the frankenstien they've just created.
Students- Hey, anything to get out of class. Seriously though, DL is really best for *adult* students who *can't* make it to a traditional classroom because of careers, families, location, etc. Adults are best because it takes a LOT of intiative to take an online course... there is no (IMHO shouldn't be) *set* class time. Without that constant, regular, and scheduled face time that a traditional class brings it can be easy to fall behind. You really have to take reasponsibility for your own learning.
Of course the truth to all this is somewhere in the middle. What is the web all about? Information... Communication. It is inevitable that *class* will be taught online - but the final form will not be any of these views.
Right now there is a lot of snake oil. Everyone wants to be first, but not many are trying to be the best, but give it time. As someone who reads slashdot, and probably is familiar with opensource, you know that the cream will rise to the top. The best ideas, the best programs, and the best implementations will prevail. That's what you are looking for now, isn't it?
-Computers hate being anthropomorphized.
Try Berkeley Extension, they have a good Comp/Sci program and offer quite a few distance learning courses over the web.
You want a tv-dinner degree so that you can start
teaching on the collegiate level?
The first thing you have to realize is that to teach anything
interesting in college i.e. other than CS-1, you need a PhD.
To get a PhD, you need to spend on the average of 5 full years
of your life doing classwork and research. To get a respectable
teaching position, the university that you study at has to be highly
accredited.
To get into a PhD program at an accredited university, you need
to have a BS degree with kick-ass grades, GRE scores, and usually
research experience.
You will not get a kick-ass BS degree from a distance education program.
Plug those axioms into your builtin grey-matter theorem prover and
you will reach the conclusion that you will probably not be teaching
if you get a distance education degree.
Furthermore, you do not sound like the kind of person I would like
to have as a teacher. You do not sound very committed to your
education. Computer Science is not a technical trade, it is a
science. To teach it, you need to be a scientist in every sense
of the word!
If you are interested in teaching a bleeding edge, industry
orientated, trivial application of new software app courses
(as what so many people here think Computer Science should be
about) then get your distance education and then get a quick masters.
Tuition is going to be higher for "foreign nationals residing outside of Canada". My 1997/98 calendar shows about $200 CDN per course difference, so of course that's equivalent to about a couple of dollars for all you Americans...
There is a web site dedicated to this problem, electroniccampus.org. They allow accredited colleges and universities to post imformation about courses and degree programs. They have a nice search engine for the database too. Check it out.
I am 25 with 7 years of experience under my belt in the IT field. Network admin and that sort of stuff. I have begun learning perl on my own, and its coming along fairly well. I have NO college whatsover, would you folks think its worth it for me to begin going to school now?
Of course it's a profession, but that's no reason you can't get the required degrees by distance learning.
Here in Canada, you also have to spend two years as an apprentice and pass certain tests to become an engineer. This is a much more effective system for weeding out incompetents than a university.
Anyway, I think the whole "profession" thing is overblown. I've met incompetent, lazy engineers and ones that cut corners. Damn few of them seem to respect their ethical obligations to the end-users, accepting whatever management says is okay (they act more from fear of litigation than from any code of ethics). Same with doctors and lawyers.
In fact 90% of the engineers I met (I worked for 2 years in a co-op engineering program before giving up in disgust) didn't deserve the title as it is represented by the professional organizations. I wouldn't trust them to build me a flashlight, let alone a jet engine. The truth is that the reason important things aren't usually clumsily built is not that professional engineers were involved, but simply that they are important, so the human beings involved in the design and construction take care to do the job right.
Everyone should do their work ethically. Everyone should be competent at their job. A short-order cook is every bit as ethically obligated not to poison his customers or spit in the food as a professional chef.
The difference between a "professional" and a skilled laborer is approval by an old bureaucracy; often one which has gained a government-enforced monopoly. Like any group which is profitable to belong to, they set up complex initiations and other barriers to entry, which they use to ensure that the current members continue to profit and that the new members are thoroughly indoctrinated to become useful tools of the group in return for a share in the profit. These are the true purposes for the degree requirement and the fixed-term apprenticeship.
Well, it seems that now adays many college students like to start working because of the money that can be made now. But this is not a good idea for a few reasons;
1) While you can make good money with out a degree it has quite a large opportunity cost. With a BS or a masters you could make a lot more money andyou would find it easier to land jobs.
2) The job market for programmers is not going to be as needy as it is now forever. The computer software boom cannot last forever. When the industry cools, degrees will become very importan.
Just my $0.02
What accredited colleges or universities offer a full Bachelors in Computer Science through Distance Learning? After reading this, you've piqued my interest.
Does anyone have similar info on Distance Learning for a MSCS? I was planning on doing some night school after work, but then had to change jobs which increased my commute time. This made night classes impossible. I do NOT want a buy-a-degree type thing. Ditto.
My answer is more in question form. You say you were working and going to College for free but yet you left it to get a higher paying job. Now is the job actually higher paying looking back on the fact that you now want to get your degree? I also left school for a good paying job (consulting job for that matter now I work for myself but I make a min of 70k a year or I was) but I don't have a need for a degree. I could easily stop everything right now and go back to school fulltime to finish up the rest of my schooling with the money I have saved but my question is if its that much better pay why can't you just stop everything and go back and get your degree like it seams you want to? It looks like its really not that much better in the pay area considering then eh?
--MD--
--MD--
Just had to chime in here. Distance Learning is just a format - like classrooms are just a format - for a learning experience. You don't get a distance learning degree - you get it through and using distance learning. They say by 2003, 85% of U.S. colleges will be offering distance learning courses and that 15% of all college students will be taking distance learning courses. That's quite a trend for traditional colleges and universities. And it means lots of flexibility for busy, working students (usually adults). RIT (distancelearning.rit.edu) for one, has been offering some of its on-campus degree programs through various forms of distance learning since 1991 -- including an M.S. in IT and one in Software Development. It's the same faculty, the same 11-week courses, the same course numbers, and the same degree programs as the on-campus format. And..you can take the courses when you can fit the work (and there's alot of it) around your life. For example, right now, my work day is done, my kids are in bed, and I'm in my "virtual classroom" in the PhD program in Education from the University of Nebraska.
You should check about local degree completion programs. These offer
flexible schedules and liberal acceptance of transfer credits.
For example, in Illinois (were I currently live) there is a Board of
Governor's Degree Program that I am currently enrolled in. Although I've
taken course at about half a dozen schools, I only have to take a total of 15
more hours to get my degree.
http://www.neiu.edu/Nontrad.htm
Check out the "Bears Guide to Earning Degrees Non-Traditionally", which
offers many options for getting a degree. It is available at most libraries.
I considered getting a degree by distance learning but decided that the
classroom was a better option. Of the distance degrees I checked out, the
University of Maryland looked the best. They were reputable, had a lot of
distance classes and were reasonably priced.
www.umaryland.edu
For an online reference, this page is just about the best.
http://www.ryeko.com/distance_learning.htm
Good luck in getting your degree. I have 12 hours to go.
In a world that is Free and Open, who needs Windows and Gates?
This quarter at a local community college, I have been taking an online class in report writing as one of three classes (the other two are conventional classroom fare) and I've found that the online class has been pretty well useless. For one thing, the system (known as WebCT) used in the class is, despite appearances, essentially non-interactive in nature. The class consists of a few documents in PDF and HTML providing the information for the class, a message board and an internal e-mail system. There is also a chatroom component, but in the times I have visited it, it has been completely empty.
If you have the time to sort through all the information (made especially difficult by the poor interface on Acrobat as well as the inherent difficulties of reading large amounts of text on a computer screen) you might be able to get the information required. (Some classes also use RealAudio lectures, but those are another can of worms entirely.) It would also be an effective solution if used as a self-paced class, but the way the class I'm in works, you still have deadlines... As it stands, I will most likely be retaking the class as a standard instructor-led class next quarter.
Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something.
I know that stanford, has a really good distance learning program. They offer their full line of courses remotely, though either videos fedexed to you, or you can watch them from your computer. Also, tests are sent to a center near you for you to take, and you gain full credit, and can get a BS. I think its rather exepnsive, as it is aimed at large corporations, but I'm not sure.
Without starting a flamewar (I suspect my next comment will hit nationalist nerves), the education systems are essentially the same, with variations from school to school and province/state to province/state being perhaps more significant than variation between US and Canada. If I understand correctly, education is a provincial/state responsibility in both countries.
But I am not an expert, so I stand to be corrected.
Do keep in mind, you have military service, which is NOT insignificant. There is an extreme amount of respect for that.
The other thing to consider with your military service is that it compensates for the other fear of hiring someone without a college degree.
If nothing else, a college degree (even in something useless like Art History) demonstrates that you can complete a task once you start it. Twelve years of military service will convince anyone that you aren't a slacker.
Also, those with degrees are immediately biased against those that aren't. Fair or not, there is an assumption that intelligence and education are correlated. While that is true in general, I know a lot of bright people without degrees and a lot of morons at top schools. However, you immediately rule out any decent job in a large company without the degree, they'll have policies.
If you want to sysadmin/C code your whole life, you can get by without a degree, however, I think that you'll run into problems.
For example, experienced coders (age 30+) are having SERIOUS employment problems because companies are stupid (you didn't work with Java?) or their managers (usually in their 20s) would be uncomfortable. Because of the age discrimination in this industry, later in life you're going to be hurting without the degree.
When you are in your 30s or 40s, you may have difficulty obtaining work in these positions. Unless you aquired some management experience, you're limited.
With a solid undergrad degree, you have many more options. 10-15 years down the road, if you are having trouble finding work or bored with your work, you always have the MBA option. Without a degree, good luck getting into an MBA program. With that MBA in hand and years of experience, you can land a nice, cushy, management job in the industry, probably paying twice what you're all excited about now.
There is also a HUGE social status issue with degrees. People without them lose respect in the eyes of most people with degrees. Before ignoring that fact, consider meeting a prospective spouse's family, maybe swapping stories about life, and they ask where you went to school. Want to tell people you didn't go to college?
For entry level programming/sysadmining jobs, you can easily get by without the degree. If you want to move up, you're going to have REAL difficulty without the degree. Your job mobility is going to be severely impacted. Even if you can land another job, think that you'll have as easy a time getting that senior level position? The one that HR insists needs a Masters degree? You can probably get it with a bachelors, but not a Masters.
Besides the job opportunities, undergraduate years are a blast. Why you would pass up the prolonged American adolescence is beyond me. Pick a school, have a blast. You can work part-time/summers to aquire work experience, and later on in life, you'll be glad that you did.
I think in a lot of ways, you get out what you put into something. I'm not sure programming is something you want to tackle online if you don't know much about it to begin with.
Florida State University offers a full CS degree online. It is offered with a concentration in software engineering, I believe.
You could try the UK Open University. They have a sister branch in the US (http://www.open.edu) and many of their courses are highly rated by the UK govt. assessment agencies.
I *completely* understand your frustration and agree with you that something along the lines of what you propose *must* be done.
As an electrical engineer with minors in mathematics and physics, I had a whole heck of a lot of university courses to attend. In addition to this workload, I also completed all the premedical requirements. After graduating with an EE, I started medical school and completed the first two years. I then completed a two-year information technology MBA program and have since returned back to medical school as a third year medical student and am currently working in the hospital. I plan on combining my technical background with medicine and business to start a high-tech medical firm.
Along the course of my education, I have had probably a hundred university courses spread out over nearly 11 years. I must say that the amount of information presented in all of those lectures could probably be condensed into about 15 classes spread over 3 years. What an incredibly inefficient use of resources, energy, and money!
What I have found is that it is a rare professor who actually takes the time to *hone* their lectures and edit them until they are concise, clear, and *optimized* for learning. Usually, they simply reuse lectures from previous years without even attempting to update them and improve them because it is such a time consuming task. Should we require them to do so? Is it efficient to require them to do so? I don't believe it is.
It seems that, while there may be a million different ways to present a lecture on "muscles of the eye" or "binary tree algorithms", it's probably not the most efficient use of time/money/resources to require a thousand different professors/lecturers across the country to produce a thousand different lectures on the same topics. To then require them to repeat this information year after year, day after day, or even several times a day seems like an incredible inefficiency in the educational system.
An "open source" methodology might very well be applicable. Can the energy and resources of so many geographically separated professors, students, and colleages be pooled to produce organized, concise, and clear lectures freely available and accessible to all? Can such order be produced from such chaos?
With the incredible rise to prominence of "open source", and in the larger scale "open collaboration", such a system is at least a possibility...
Anyways, I have begun to try and continue with finishing my degree, though i find it tough to actually find time to do the course material, I'm attending Athabasca University which I seem to enjoy cause it's pretty much self teaching from an textbook (yes i interact better with a book). I haven't had to write a test but the only thing i had to do was get a transcript from my old university, everything else I have done online. You can even pay for course via credit card online (sweet, get airmiles on those courses along with a tax deduction!). This university is the only one to offer distance education which is credited at the same level as all other University Institutions in Canada. Course are around $400 each (about 300usd) with a $100 enrollement fee. The online site is pretty good.
I have been satisfied with it so far. I have looked into the online student chat areas and have found that there are others in the area who might not really be quailified to take courses (i'm doing java right now). I was expecting the java course to be a breeze but it's more a lesson in OOP then 'java' as they are teaching the fundimentals of OOP with java. There are students taking this who expected it to be a bird course, sort of like 'chips for dips' or 'dos for dummies'. If the level of education for the rest of the course are comparable then it would actually give a person a good foundation in CS, which is after all what they are suppose to be doing right?
good luck.
Yes, I agree that the #1 main use of getting a college degree is to impress other people with college degrees. The Dilbert pointy-headed-boss types (that show no signs of disappearing anytime soon) think that there has to be something horribly wrong with anyone who values knowlege and personal performance rather than conformity and writing research papers about dead writers. It'll change when we start getting managers with no degrees.
It's word play but bear with me...
;-)
;-)
Imagine a construct, whether it's a web page, a book, or even an AI program. It contains large amounts of information indexed on a particular topic. (Ok.. not just a paper book but...)
Say a Volkswagen Bug (I love them myself)
A knexus on a Volkswagen Bug could contain the history of the Volkswagen Bug, Schematics, Driver testimonials, views of the bug with emphasis on aerodynamics, fuel flow, energy distribution, engine design, repair stories, tips, common breakdowns, engineer notes translated from German... etc...
Now if to that, you can add an AI that asks questions, tests answers, and based on deficiencies or curiosities offers more content.
A pedagogue in a box...
And one of the tunable parameters is the more you work with it, the more you know..
If you can go through say 60-70% of the content..
You need to get out more... But if you make it through 20% of the content you have good knowledge, 40-50% you are absorbed enough information via interaction to be well rounded..
I just know the things I remember and retain have real life examples attached or good breadth and scope. Just facts don't hold. But if the content is an exploration it holds better...
Now if I could just find a knexus on Electrical Engineering cross ref'd with a knexus on Mathematics and Physics... *SIGH*
With one of those I wouldn't want to go to college... Actually...
But a degree and the knowledge it will grant me is currently my only path...
"Don't fear death... fear not living..." -me
I don't know if any of you are familiar with the co-op program that many universities in Ontario offer, but I'm loving it. Not only do I get 16 months of practical work experience before I leave school, I also get to experience working in 4 totally different environments if I so choose. This kind of "sampling" could take years otherwise. Plus, it helps me pay for school during school.
Besides that, I'm afraid most of you are out to lunch with this "school is useless" routine. I'm taking many courses with content I wouldn't even know where to look to learn otherwise. The reason most first jobs want to know about school is so they know you have the background info. Once you work a couple of years at a specific job, the stuff you've learned in school may be irrelevant to your career path or you may have forgetten it completely! Recruiters know this, and therefore don't care.
A little anecdote: In the co-op program, you compete directly with students in your classes. I have a (somewhat) modest B+ average and I'm an (almost) expert ASP/javascript/vbscript programmer and I got 14 interviews. The kids with A+ averages and no work experience got 0-3 interviews. Now that's something to chew on.
rL
----- rL
I cannot say how much i learned from a theoretical standpoint from my degree. It did not make me a better programmer, or teach me anything that will get me a better job, only real experience will give you that, but it did give me a fundamental edge in understanding of concepts that i would not have gotten otherwise. I use Perl on linux at work as well as a few contract VB projects for ectra cash, and c for real serious performance apps, and I could do the job just as effectively without the college experience, but when I contemplate the issues of performance and stability, the theory i and concepts I learned in college come in real handy. Thanks Dr. D and Dr. C (shameless plugs)
Well, I'm usually not much for shameless promotions, but I really think this may be something you might be interested in.
I work for the Southern Regional Education Board and we run a web site called the Electronic Campus which is a basically a collection of many courses and degree programs that are offered by various universities and colleges in the southern region. Visit this page for a list of the participating universities.
We don't actually run the courses ourself. If you had to descibe the purpose of the site, think of it as a search engine for distance learning courses offered by universities in the southern region.
All courses and programs are accredited, and go through a pretty rigourous (sp?) check to make sure that they are quality courses.
Although I only run the technical side of things I know many of the people in the administrative side of it, and am fairly knowledegable of the program. So if you have any questions feel free to send me a message.
Eric Anderson
Apparently you're affiliated in some way with MSU.
Your Bias is showing d00d!
I not sure if this is relevant, since I don't live in the US but I'll give it a try. Learning Tree International at http://www.learningtree.com offers college credit in the US for doing their courses, they also give University Credit here in England.
It requires quite a lot of courses (Average 9-10 but can be less) plus 3 supervised work related projects.
And after all that you walk out with a Masters Degree in Professional Computing.
To keep you motivated along the way every 5 courses you pass in a particular range gives you a learning tree certification e.g. Unix Systems Certified Professional (USCP) , System and Network Certified Professional (S&NCP),etc.
The course can be applied to multiple certifications as well, so it may be possible to do 6 or 7 courses and get out with 2 certification as in the case of USCP and S&NCP since the Unix portion crosses over.
I'm not sure if any other Training Providers offer this in the US but it may be worth looking.
As an aside and I may be wrong, but Doesn't IBM have a University of it's own? I heard that they did but that may be just in the UK.
-Action Jackson
It seems that anything web gets a lot of buzz. The idea of recieving an education via 1000mi. away on a network gets people excited. It seems to implicitly get people to think, "Oh neat! We are now able to do some of the things we only dreamed of on Star Trek (for example)". However, I think logic should replace the excitement if people want to see the reality of online education. It is by far still only in its infancy. A benefit of online ed which I see is that, sure, the obvious distance benefit. But what makes online learning MORE beneficial than current education? I think if you list a pro, it will be outwieghed with a con, more than likely anyhow.
You should pay a visit to Thomas Edison State College. They are fully regionally accredited, BSCS provided, give credit for previous learning and even work experience, and are very reasonably priced. You also probably want to visit Peterson's Guide (www.petersons.com ?) and alt.education.distance
If you leave, and things go wrong, you have nothing. If you leave with a piece of paper and things go wrong, then your better covered. You dont always need a degree. But it helps. I've a mate thats taken now two years of working for shitty PC sales firms but now hes broken into Sys Admin with a lucky break. And it was very lucky and he even admits it. If you havent got the piece of paper, it sometimes comes down to who you know , not what you know. Half to time you apply you only send in a CV. If the CV is devoid of qualifications then it starts alarm bells with some employers. Unless your 40 years old they will want to know why you dropped out of school. And some firms dont like quitters. I think a degree most says about a person is that they were determined enough to put up with all the poverty, long nights and stress to get it. I was stupid enough to do it twice! Brad
I did one because I also wanted to learn. Though some warning. Some firms wouldnt consider me much with an Masters, I guess they thought I'd ask for too much money? Show them up? All ridiculous really. Still glad I did it though and it has payed of in the end. If you think you dont need to be qualified then think about this extremely exagerated case. If you went under sugery, do you want : a) A trained surgeon b) A guy who has been dabbling in surgery and is fairly good at some operations. c) A surgeon who your are not sure is trained or not. Id always go for A everytime, so you can't expect much from other professions. Brad
And some of the old Maths programs from the seventies still appear from time to time (I mean maths doesnt change all that much really now does it). You can spot some truly wild hair styles, lapels, flares and kipper ties. Brad
Regards, Ralph.
I've been struggling with the subject of college for the last few years, and am currently facing some difficult issues. I am a completely self-educated 21-year-old programmer/graphic designer, but I been reluctantly forcing myself to find time for school just so I can get that piece of paper. I hate every second of it. I just recently dropped out of my community college for the 2nd time in 4 years. I applied to Rutgers a few months ago, and last night I received an acceptance letter. I'm throwing it in the trash. I'm tired of trying to learn "their way" when I can learn far more efficiently in my own way, and without the anger and stress that school brings.
I sense that there are alot of people out there in the CS field who are like me. I love learning but I hate school! I want the security of a degree, but what I really want is the ability to learn what interests me in my own way. I earn $60k a year based on skills that I developed on my own. I would like to make more than that, but my top priority, and I think this is common in the Slashdot world, is not to hoard money, but to have the freedom to work on the things that I love. I only want to make enough money to be comfortable.
Enslaving myself to a university for another 2-4 years doesn't suit me... I feel it would be detrimental to my integrity to make any such sacrifices. I continue to work on fun projects at work, and fun projects on the side, and I love every second of it. I love my work alot more than the myriad of college-learned people I have worked with over the years who've come to depend on institutions for knowledge. The computer science field is moving too fast for traditional education. I realize I may not get paid as much in the long run without a degree, but I will be far more educated in the long run than those lacking the ability to educate themselves.
I had a lot of varying problems, too...I just got my BS in '95...at 46. What I wound up doing was using Regents' College (which is *NOT* that POS that the funnymentalists started in one of the Carolinas), which is part of SUNY (the real thing, not a diploma mill). What they do is accept credits from *accredited* schools and tests (like CLEP, or CCP), though they may ask for a syllabus, eventually, when you get the right number of credits, with the right course spread, you get the degree. They do *NOT* have campus classes...I think they've only recently added onlline courses. They also do *not* play this, "you've got to take your last 30/60/whatever credits here" game - if you've passed accredited courses, with a C or better, it's a good credit.
As I understand it, they were invented in '72, during 'Nam, primarily for folks in the military ("we know you're 3 mos from your degree, sorry,
you're going to Dusseldorf for the next year...."), and functioned as a "credit bank". It's gotten a lot bigger, and not just for the military any more, what with the way we all move around. Check it out. I think they're a good deal.
mark roth-whitworth
Harvard Extension has some distance education courses, although no distance-only degree. I'm taking one of these courses now as a local student. Lectures are video taped and published on a web site two days later. As a local student, I've used the web-based lectures for two purposes: to catch a lecture I missed due to traveling for work, and to re-watch some lecture snippets while studying for an exam. In both cases, everything was great. In fact, for studying, watching the important parts of one of the lectures saved my skin.
Bottom line: They don't have a distance-only degree, but this course and others are very good and are available to distance learners.
Righto. So you want to Open Source Academia. Here's some important clues to use, from someone already at work on that project, and derived from watching the OSS Movement:
Always carefully differentiate between the OSA Movement (the Cause, the desire to bring Open Source to the Academe in general) and specific OSA Projects . Keep firmly fixed in the front of your mind that until you have viable OSA projects - OS materials ready for use - going on about an OSA Movement is oh so much hot air.
You can't build an entire University by yourself. At the very least you're going to need the help of some other OSA developers. So pick a project of a scale you can actually do something on. Closed Source Academia is a mountain; don't try to move it all at once, pick up the biggest rock you can handle and work on it. If you manage to move it out of the way, go get another rock. This will help keep you from getting demoralized by the scope of the Cause, and provide validation for it.
Example:
However one of the things I have discovered is that once you start doing this, it begs the question "Why have Universities at all?" I will not go into the history of Universities here, but suffice it to say: they were originally nothing more than physical convergences of independent scholars putting out their shingles and charging by the lecture (no kidding). Since we are discussing virtual academia, physical convergence is no longer necessary. Degrees were awarded by examination. There is nothing to stop some entrepenurial souls from putting together their own accrediting firm, which examines applicants, and then certifies their level of attainment. We can "unbundle" the selling of the education from the evaluation of the education. (Why does it not strike anyone else as an egregious conflict of interest that Universities award degrees to the same people they taught?? Should not a disinterested objective external party be the one to say whether or not the University was successful in teaching a student??) There are many other affordances of the university as modernly construed, but all of them bear revisiting.
If recreating the monolithic institution of the modern university, only on-line, is no longer your aim, the project gets vastly easier.
Academia is more than a venue for teaching, it is a bastion of research. It is popular to consider these two things to be pitted against one another, but once you actually start trying to do OSA, you find that teaching and research are two sides of a single coin. Unless you own that research, you can't GPL it. This generally means if you want to have GPL teaching materials you have to do your own research - where "research" here means all the leg work necessary. You might not have to reproduce every experiment, but you have to make yourself sufficient expertly that your work is useful. Even small errors will scuttle your credibility, and credibility is the sine qua non of education.
But this brings up one of the most fundamental (and fascinating) aspects of the idea of "Open Source Academia". What does it mean for Academia to be "Open Source"? It means the primary sources of your research must be available to the users of your Academic product. That means: no textbooks without heavy footnotes (ideally links!) to the actual research/evidence/examples. No unsupported assertions, no reliance on links to other secondary sources (i.e. other textbooks!).
The field in which I am doing OSA work is the history of music. In my field, that means making available to the user of my scholarship the actual manuscript pages I worked from. In CSA, there are, of course, cites, but often to extremely hard-to-get-a-hold-of works. To my mind, OSA means publishing OS facimiles of the work; it means preparing "facing page" transcriptions and translations.
Open Source is about putting the tools in the users hands, not just getting the job done for them. It is not enough for an academic product/project to inform the student. It must also put the sources into their hands so they can make their own scholarship from scratch. Only then is it Open Source.
Museums are usually not Open Source. Until I got very involved in OSA, I didn't realize this. But then I had occasion to see a special exhibit at my favorite science museum. In the special exhibit there were ascertions made about the history of science which contradicted ascertions made in the permanent history of mathematics section of the museum. Neither had any kind of citation or evidence - what science museum does? It was only when I began to try to find someone who could tell me "What is the evidence for this? What historical sources were used for this exhibit? Why do you believe this is true?" that I truly began to realize how Closed Source this science museum is. But then I reflected; I had worked for a science museum in another city, and it had been just as closed source. Meanwhile the local fine arts museum also presents historical artifacts with no discussion of how or why things are classified ("How do you know this jar held perfume?" "Why do you think this is a picture of his mother?" etc.)
Open Source Academia is a completely different way of thinking about education - of others, and of oneself. Traditional "Education" is like the Classic Mac; you're supposed to think of it as an appliance, and not to try to get into the case without special authorization. Once you've stepped into Open Source Academia, you realize you've got the CLI for studying anything no matter how "academic", and you want the source for everything: "Show me the Source!"
Back to the practicalities: Just like in OSS, you need fanatics. Linux is built by people who are willing to make it their primary project, their primary intellectual passion. You are not going to build OSA products with OSS geeks in their spare time. You need real OSA geeks. You need people who are fanatics about their "academic" area of scholarship, and who believe in Open Source.
You need peer review. I can't stress this enough. The project I've been working on has been going on (off and on) for ~30 years. I can't begin tell you how much it's been damaged by lack of peer review. Crappy work got propagated decades ago, and people who relied on it got seriously screwed. We're still cleaning up the mess, trying to rebuild the reputation of the project. The only way not to have this problem is vigorous peer review. (Heck, the whole point of Open Source, from certain standpoints anyway, is that Open Source accelerates the finding and fixing of bugs. Yet to academics, their papers are their babies; this also has to change in OSA.)
OSA could revolutionize the world as much as OSS - but like OSS, only if it is fruitful. So don't talk about it: do it!
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-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
You may want to checkout http://www.ecollege.com I don't know much about how to register with them but I do know that they are a legitimate organization.
@vSpid Like, Whatever
Problem is, about one year and a half ago, I got contacted for a start-up company to a promising job in IBM products. I got this job, I am a sort of support person/installer/implementor/do-it-all. It is a good job and the company more than doubled throughout this time, and is about to double again.
I was very frustrated with college at the time I was contacted, and I don't regret it. This job taught me more than a few great lessons.
But, now, apart from unwilling to get back to that ugly chairs and desks and seeing the face of a teacher who knows less than me on several subjects, I can't reserve the time to *finish* these 5 disciplines. I have already postponed my year 2 times - and I can't do it anymore, subject to expulsion.
How do I handle this situation? I don't know. At one side, there is my job - and my future lies within it (it is a full-time job, I work almost 14 hours a day, most times even in holiday) - and at the other side, there's college - I can't step on to that same future without getting that rolled paper which certifies me as being 'capable' of doing what I do WELL for one year and a half.
I have already tried to attend college while studying. My college is about 130 km far from my work, so I take about two hours driving (apart that my job puts me traveling to distant places most of my time). Fortunately it was a discipline which was taught only once every two weeks, but even then I couldn't succeed to accompany it and I failed.
Any suggestions? I hope there was a magic recipe for succeeding in this kind of situation, which I believe to being highly parallel to yours, yet in a different context.
BTW - I don't think it would be easy to get a transfer to where I live, and even then, I would lose a whole set of disciplines and the big status of the college I attend to.
Patola
Patola (Claudio Sampaio)
Unix System Administrator
...at least here in Canada.
Engineers must follow a code of ethics and here they take an oath called the "Obligation of the Engineer" at the "Ritual of the Calling of the Engineer" in which the engineer receives his iron ring which is worn on the little finger of the working hand as a symbol of the oath.
Anyway, use of an oath isn't the definition of a profession, a profession is "a self-selected, self-disciplined group of individuals who hold themselves out of the public as possessing a special skilll in the interests of others."
...at least here in Canada.
Engineers must follow a code of ethics and here they take an oath called the "Obligation of the Engineer" at the "Ritual of the Calling of the Engineer" in which the engineer receives his iron ring which is worn on the little finger of the working hand as a symbol of the oath.
Anyway, use of an oath isn't the definition of a profession, a profession is "a self-selected, self-disciplined group of individuals who hold themselves out of the public as possessing a special skilll in the interests of others." All provinces of Canada officially consider engineering a profession, and enforce a monopoly for one engineering association.
BTW, I've just learned that the bastards have stretched the apprenticeship (as in experience under the direct supervision of a professional engineer) period out to four years. So you're looking at a minimum 8 year commitment of time to become a professional engineer.
There are some initiatives moving forward toward "course banks", such as the New York Regents college, etc., but as far as I know, there is not truly an "Open Source Academia" that we could all contribute to (as yet).
Finally, there's the scope problem: assume I put a really great (and fully accredited) "Engineering 101" course (for example) on the web, and that instead of $100 per credit hour, it's either (preferably) free or a modest cost (say $10.00 per credit hour). And any student anywhere can transfer that course to their own institution/degree program of choice, saving $270 for the course. Heck-ov-a server load, wouldn't you agree?
Anyway, that's not going to stop inexpensive online education from happening for much longer. The web and even non-exotic HTML are just too damn powerful to leave the lousy status quo alone.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
The Connecticut Distance Learning Center (www.ctdlc.org) offers a huge number of courses for anyone (not just CT residents). The fees aren't that bad, and the courses are real classes taught be instructors who teach at real colleges
Make me laugh! So what! I guess that's why these so called top not companies are constantly looking for programmers etc. I am laughing because a major company is scrapping a project because it was screwed up, guess who designed it, people from top notch schools and Andersen Consulting.
Once you are somewhat older -- in your early 30's, say -- you will probably face a period of diminished demand for your services as a coder. This happens in part because of stereotyping, but also because of changing work patterns (there's so much job-hopping most managers are no longer promoted from within in technical departments).
I always stress to young coders that they MUST make the jump from lower-level, highly technical, quickly obsolescent skills to higher-level skills (analysis, "management" -- which I agree is mostly nonsense and no distinct set of knowledge, or hi-level accounting... something!) in order to remain employable. My dear readers, consider the demographics and make up your mind to identify your own path out of low-level coding-type expertise to higher-level jobs as soon as you get your first jobs. College can be one such path, partly because of "networking" (the soft, making-contacts kind). Oftener than you think, instructors place outstanding students into corporations with which they have previously had contact.