The problems with the Plan9 licence generally do not bother much of the developers, even though occasionaly flamefests erupt on the plan9 mailing lists.
According to the people at Bell Labs, if the Lucent lawyers agree, Plan9's licence could immediately be changed to something more in terms with RMS' revolution.
Unfortunately those same lawyers have been petitioned quite so many times already.
sometimes it is impossible to switch abruptly to a new technology (in this case ssh). mostly due to inertia and inability (or lack of resources) to educate all users on the matter.
at our university (3000+ employees, 15000+ students) some of the servers still have telnet open -- it's much more cost effective to _not_ have to teach all of them how to use putty...
can you imagine how expensive would be to switch the entire administration from openvms to unix? the bigger the body the more inertia it has.. and sometimes a sysadmin's desire to use new technology is simply not enough to move it...
--
flame on
Re:/. needs a "Hype" topic with a picture of segwa
on
This is IT?
·
· Score: 1
to be completely correct,/. needs a 'hype' topic with the transmeta logo on it.
the story so far -- transmeta picks up linus, slashdot picks up transmeta. thousands of useless articles later transmeta is almost gone and/. has moved on to the next hype.
(granted, not much about IT has passed the portals of/. lately.. so i think the next hype may be umm.. sex-box vs gametube?)
> BTW, why so many Plan 9 clones? Is Plan 9 development so closed that enthusiasts can't help?
plan 9 used to be closed source up until release 3 of last year. now that is fixed and everyone is welcome to it.
p9 also has a very interesting design, which could and has influenced other operating systems.
no, not 'disruptive' but 'innovative'.. in a certain non-microsoft way..
btw, plan9 is not microkernel and does not try to be 'minimalistic'.. it just attempts to solve some on unix' problems, as viewed by the people who wrote it...
anyway, by now slashdot has moved onward, so our discussion is pretty much off-topic:)
unix needs to go.. it's what, 30+ years old.. the ideas behind it are still viable, but need to be reincarnated in something new, not only add-ons to existing operating systems (same goes for microsoft)...
take a look at plan 9, to see what the only research in operating systems design is developing...
http://plan9.bell-labs.com
Ed is the standard editor!
on
VIM 6.0 is Out
·
· Score: 0
(reprinted without permission)
When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi
*and* Emacs are just too damn slow. They print useless messages like,
'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'. So I use the editor
that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time.
Ed, man! !man ed
ED(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual ED(1)
NAME
ed - text editor
SYNOPSIS
ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ]
DESCRIPTION
Ed is the standard text editor.
---
Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first
alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed
because it's ED!
"Ed is the standard text editor."
And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look:
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929/bin/ed
-rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970/usr/ucb/vi
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990/usr/bin/emacs
Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed.
Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog
message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K;
and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!
"Ed is the standard text editor."
Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed:
---
Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is
generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm
the novice with verbosity.
"Ed is the standard text editor."
Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all.
ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA! ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF EDUCATED
AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES! ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR PRECIOUS
BODILY FLUIDS!! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! ED MAKES THE SUN
SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!!
When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless
help screens and cursor positioning code! I just want an EDitor!!
Not a "viitor". Not a "emacsitor". Those aren't even WORDS!!!! ED!
ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!!
TEXT EDITOR.
When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their
"edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi? No. Emacs? Surely
you jest. They chose the most karmic editor of all. The standard.
Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on. If you
are an idiot, you should use Emacs. If you are an Emacs, you should
not be vi. If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION. THE
SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO TEMPT THE
FAITHLESS. DO NOT GIVE IN!!! THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
well, p9 does still exist, and now will probably get even more attention, since everyone will try to rip it in order to 'get in line' with MS.. at least the ppl who think about OS development.. af far as p9 is concerned, unix is dead:)
i have perl ported to p9, others have python.. what, you can't port something like that yourself?:P
heck, somebody is even working on java (kaffe) ported... IMHO, they're not needed -- not once have i had to use perl on my p9 machines. my port was just an exercise in futility.
the book '2001, a space odissey' was created after the movie. the original idea for this movie came from Kubrick, who later invited Clarke and worked together with him in creating the screenplay.
You're sitting comfortably in front of the console of your server happily clickity-clicking away, the syslog quietly printing its timestamps every 5 minutes, load is normal, users are quiet and the world seems to be in place.
Suddenly alarm rings, your syslog becomes all red and the security specialist comes storming through the door shouting "someone executed 'rm -rf/&' as root"...
At this point, would you prefer to have a filesystem that is *sooo* fast deleting that it's already gone through/bin and moved on to/home/, or would you like to have one that has barely just started?:)
Of course that is all just hypothetical, not that anyone has ever had to recover a system from a deleted/bin:)
Yes, it has -- the beginning of the century some people tried to explain math with the language of logic. Their mylestone book was called "Principia Mathematica" and it took them two pages to prove that 1 + 1 = 2...
Of course, they managed to do so only at page 56 (or so) in the book. Let's see how this metalanguage will measure up to that:)
cheers: f2f
ps: i'm sure someone will be able to give more detail about the people who wrote the principia
Slashdot Mirror
should read the entire release. names of arbitrary length can already be handled by p9
The problems with the Plan9 licence generally do not bother much of the developers, even though occasionaly flamefests erupt on the plan9 mailing lists.
According to the people at Bell Labs, if the Lucent lawyers agree, Plan9's licence could immediately be changed to something more in terms with RMS' revolution.
Unfortunately those same lawyers have been petitioned quite so many times already.
i'd mod you up, but i gave up my moderation points a year ago :)
:)
like third point...
you like my id?
i've heard of regression testing before -- sun has to do this for all their patches.. sometimes it takes up to a week...
:)
or they can simply release something that's broken and then patch the patch (linux-type release schedule
sometimes it is impossible to switch abruptly to a new technology (in this case ssh). mostly due to inertia and inability (or lack of resources) to educate all users on the matter.
at our university (3000+ employees, 15000+ students) some of the servers still have telnet open -- it's much more cost effective to _not_ have to teach all of them how to use putty...
can you imagine how expensive would be to switch the entire administration from openvms to unix? the bigger the body the more inertia it has.. and sometimes a sysadmin's desire to use new technology is simply not enough to move it...
--
flame on
to be completely correct, /. needs a 'hype' topic with the transmeta logo on it.
/. has moved on to the next hype.
/. lately.. so i think the next hype may be umm.. sex-box vs gametube?)
the story so far -- transmeta picks up linus, slashdot picks up transmeta. thousands of useless articles later transmeta is almost gone and
(granted, not much about IT has passed the portals of
I concur!
Nostalgia was better when I was young too, I might add.
microsoft had it's own unix version -- xenix
check it out on google.com
bash-2.03$ uname -a
:)
OpenBSD sucky 2.6 GENERIC#696 i386
bash-2.03$ uptime
8:28PM up 485 days, 20:12, 2 users, load averages: 0.08, 0.08, 0.08
bash-2.03$ ifconfig -A | grep inet | wc -l
37
that machine does nothing but firewall and redirect to internal hosts, it has something like 8 megs of ram and no hard drive
despite the obvious bragging value, this box clearly shows that using a free software solution does _not_ result in extraneous maintenance costs
:)
funny thing is, i'm wearing this shirt right now :)
> BTW, why so many Plan 9 clones? Is Plan 9 development so closed that enthusiasts can't help?
plan 9 used to be closed source up until release 3 of last year. now that is fixed and everyone is welcome to it.
p9 also has a very interesting design, which could and has influenced other operating systems.
no, not 'disruptive' but 'innovative'.. in a certain non-microsoft way..
:)
btw, plan9 is not microkernel and does not try to be 'minimalistic'.. it just attempts to solve some on unix' problems, as viewed by the people who wrote it...
anyway, by now slashdot has moved onward, so our discussion is pretty much off-topic
cheers
'operating system research is dead' by rob pike is a paper you need to read to understand my point.
unix needs to go.. it's what, 30+ years old.. the ideas behind it are still viable, but need to be reincarnated in something new, not only add-ons to existing operating systems (same goes for microsoft)...
take a look at plan 9, to see what the only research in operating systems design is developing...
http://plan9.bell-labs.com
(reprinted without permission)
/bin/ed
/usr/ucb/vi
/usr/bin/emacs
When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi
*and* Emacs are just too damn slow. They print useless messages like,
'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'. So I use the editor
that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time.
Ed, man! !man ed
ED(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual ED(1)
NAME
ed - text editor
SYNOPSIS
ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ]
DESCRIPTION
Ed is the standard text editor.
---
Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first
alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed
because it's ED!
"Ed is the standard text editor."
And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look:
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929
-rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990
Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed.
Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog
message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K;
and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!
"Ed is the standard text editor."
Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed:
golem> ed
?
help
?
?
?
quit
?
exit
?
bye
?
hello?
?
eat flaming death
?
^C
?
^C
?
^D
?
---
Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is
generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm
the novice with verbosity.
"Ed is the standard text editor."
Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all.
ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA! ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF EDUCATED
AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES! ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR PRECIOUS
BODILY FLUIDS!! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! ED MAKES THE SUN
SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!!
When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless
help screens and cursor positioning code! I just want an EDitor!!
Not a "viitor". Not a "emacsitor". Those aren't even WORDS!!!! ED!
ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!!
TEXT EDITOR.
When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their
"edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi? No. Emacs? Surely
you jest. They chose the most karmic editor of all. The standard.
Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on. If you
are an idiot, you should use Emacs. If you are an Emacs, you should
not be vi. If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION. THE
SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO TEMPT THE
FAITHLESS. DO NOT GIVE IN!!! THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
well, p9 does still exist, and now will probably get even more attention, since everyone will try to rip it in order to 'get in line' with MS.. at least the ppl who think about OS development.. af far as p9 is concerned, unix is dead :)
effnet #c?
tons of stuff is happening with plan9.. visit comp.os.plan9 or subscribe to 9fans@cse.psu.edu for more info... plan9.bell-labs.com is open too :)
:)
maybe it's not as much hype as any of the other 'new' OS's around, but at least the people you meet there are great
i have perl ported to p9, others have python.. what, you can't port something like that yourself? :P
heck, somebody is even working on java (kaffe) ported... IMHO, they're not needed -- not once have i had to use perl on my p9 machines. my port was just an exercise in futility.
mmm.. /. youngsters.. sweet..
/. wasn't even about linux.. others remember when /. wasn't even about computers :)
i remember when
could someone explain? do you mean 'inferno' as the plan9-based OS from bell-labs?
the original fortune cookie says:
:) hope the same happens with its evil spawn -- visual basic
''real programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN''
GOSUB and RETURN are two reserved words in BASIC which are/were used to emulate a function call.
sample program:
10 HOME
20 GOSUB 1000
30 END
1000 PRINT HELLO
1010 RETURN
i do believe the ancient art of BASIC programming has been lost forever
the book '2001, a space odissey' was created after the movie. the original idea for this movie came from Kubrick, who later invited Clarke and worked together with him in creating the screenplay.
:)
;)
Clarke himself acknowledges that
or maybe you're just trolling
You're sitting comfortably in front of the console of your server happily clickity-clicking away, the syslog quietly printing its timestamps every 5 minutes, load is normal, users are quiet and the world seems to be in place.
/&' as root"...
/bin and moved on to /home/, or would you like to have one that has barely just started? :)
/bin :)
Suddenly alarm rings, your syslog becomes all red and the security specialist comes storming through the door shouting "someone executed 'rm -rf
At this point, would you prefer to have a filesystem that is *sooo* fast deleting that it's already gone through
Of course that is all just hypothetical, not that anyone has ever had to recover a system from a deleted
regards: andrey
no, a port scan would take about 21 hours and some minutes to complete...
:)
portscanning is not pinging -- you can do it in paralel
Yes, it has -- the beginning of the century some people tried to explain math with the language of logic. Their mylestone book was called "Principia Mathematica" and it took them two pages to prove that 1 + 1 = 2...
:)
Of course, they managed to do so only at page 56 (or so) in the book. Let's see how this metalanguage will measure up to that
cheers: f2f
ps: i'm sure someone will be able to give more detail about the people who wrote the principia