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Diablo 2 Items Bringing Home the Bacon
||Plazm|| writes: "I read an update over at Diabloii.net that talks about how some items in the game are producing sizeable income for some people. It points to an article at the San Francisco Chronicle describing some of these money makers. One banker claims he's made $25000 since he started with Diablo 2 and Ultima Online! Who are the people paying real money for this stuff? A few bucks is one thing, but a few hundred? I believe this has been talked about on /. before, but is the 'problem' getting worse? Is it a 'problem' at all?"
Check this out. I'm dropping out of school now =).
I'm a signature virus. Please copy me to your signature so I can replicate.
Being a somewhat mediocre player of Ultima Online, I can get seriously annoyed over the ingame economics.
Some things in the game demand outrageous prices because people speculate in them and sell them on online auctions. It's one thing to have a runaway inflation of the ingame economics due to people exploiting bugs, but it does not help when people speculate in selling items for $500 or more. *sigh*
Venlig Hilsen / Regards
John Hinge - shayera /
"Buffy I love you... Please God No!" S
I don't see a problem with it. It's just the free market at work, supply and demand. This is the kind of thing we told the russians that they needed.
Buying this stuff is not for me, but I'm not one to stand in the way of capitalism.
the people that are buyign this stuff, at any price, are the same people that play Quake in god mode and look up all the cheat codes for a game before they even install it. It's sad but their will alwasy be an aspect of society that will want to cheat or get an advantage no matter what the cost. Look at the proliferation of scripts, pinging other players, etc. That occur in most games. People willing to pay for some advatantage, no matter how much it destroys the play ability of the game, are the script kiddies of the gaming world. 20 years ago they would have been using loaded dice to roll up their D&D characters.
At least this time it is costing them something in real money to get these kind of advantages. I tip my hat to blizzards work that they have locked their game down tight enough that people are going to extremes outside the game to get these kinds of advantages.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
It doesn't matter whether it's time spent playing Diablo or time spent writing free software. These people selling rare and hard to get items have put in the nessecary work to earn the real rewards. There are obviously people out there who want those items bad enough that they would rather pay for them than do the work them selves. Well, what's wrong with that, it happens everyday in the business world. So let's stop questioning this motive like it's something new.
If you like to buy Diablo 2 items, I have a great deal on a slightly used Bridge for you.....
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
I'll admit, it seems kind of weird to me at first glance. On the other hand...if people buy something frivolous in "real life" that enhances their enjoyment, we don't question that. It's really the same thing. They're just enhancing their enjoyment of a particular product by buying these items. Their priorities might be questionable, but that's another matter entirely...
I once paid 50 bucks for a hot Sorceress to ply me with libations all night.
www.bannination.com Two things float to the top he
I think Diablo 2 would be my summer job if I were in junior high. After all, I would be out of school, I couldn't drive yet, and what could be a cooler way to supplement my allowance than by playing Diablo 2 5-10 hours per day and selling items on eBay? I just missed my time by about 15 years.
...buying a copy of Microsoft Office!
To each, his own.
So doesn't it make sense?
As for whether or not this is a "problem": let people do as they please with their money, as long as they don't harm other people.
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
The Script Kiddies have to do _something_ with the credit card numbers they steal.
THERE'S an idea, people...
Now - suspend your disbelief for just a moment. This is income, of a sort. Now - what if there was a scheme to tax it? Imagine! Mobs coming around once a cycle and demanding money for the coffers!
Or more sinister - what if real life governments wanted to tax this? Impossible to track - but think. Its an interesting idea/problem.
OK, excusing the title, this is quite serious. My little brother and his friend showed me a while ago how to make money on Diablo II.
Get a Sorceress, put some diamonds in a helm, and wait. Your odds of finding magic items goes up.
As you fight on Battle.net, have a really good Telekenesis skill, so that you can steal every dropped item. Have a goodly stock of identify scrolls/books so that you don't need to Town Portal to check the items as you grab em.
Do this for 4 hours a day for 3 weeks and you'll have enough items to start eBaying. Happy hunting.
And, they want the uber-powerful items so bad, that they will spend their pocket change to get them. They play games for a living right? Its like a golfer getting better clubs. The players now get better items in which to play. Nothing wrong about that.
Long before games like Everquest or Ultima Online, players payed hard cash for items in Neverwinter Nights (the old SSI engine version on AOL). This was back when you couldn't just item hunt for the goodies, you had to win pearls by questing and participating in game-wide events hosted by the admins. Oh, the memories. ;)
At any rate, I don't think you could classify this as a problem. People pay real money for tangible items that are just as ridiculous. Things like, oh I dunno, MS Office (sorry, had to.) Truthfully, there is no more silliness to purchasing a +147 Ring of 1337n355 for some online RPG than say a print of some post-modern turned-up nose artist from Soho. It just all comes down to what someone wishes to burn money on.
It simply reminds me of the old adage, "A fool and his money..."
[McP]KAAOS
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
So people are spending money to get an advantage in a game, buying items that are essentially just bits on a server. A few years ago, people were spending about that much money buying items that were images on cardstock. It's not that different, except that the games of today weren't designed with the collectability and sale value of items in mind.
I wonder how selling of "virtual items" fits in with the idea of virtual property? Is it okay to sell something you didnt create? (If i were to plant a garden, is it (for lack of a better term) ethical for you to pick my flowers and sell them?)
I SURVIVED THE GREAT SLASHDOT BLACKOUT OF 2002!
...to the people doing the selling!
Gameing is a hobby, and like all hobbies can be taken to extream. But, if it brings you inner peace, and you can afford it. By all means...
This 'problem' will always exist, because it is bound to the basic principle of economics, the principle of supply and demand. As long as there are people willing to pay there will be people willing to sell.
Keeping in the spirit of things, I'll start taking bids on some slashdot logins with 50 Karma points each.
/. community (and who doesn't), you need to be able to post with the +1 bonus. Now you could go about the long and tedious process of posting insightful, informative, funny, or just plain underratted comments. But that takes time, and you're a busy person.
Yes, that's right. If you want to be influential in the
Leave the dirty work to us. We here at KarmaCo have the knowledge and experience to create YOUR perfect Slashdot ID. Our trained Karma Consultants know how to build Karma quickly. We post early, we can be funny, we say nice things about Linux and Open Software, and mean things about Microsoft. Once your ID has reached the magical 50 point Karma Level, and after we've received your payment, we turn the password over to you.
Once you take control of the ID you can troll all you'd like as you wait for your Karma level to slowly decrease. Alternatively, you can post non-troll messages without having to concern yourself with others' opinions of you. Remember, your new Slashdot ID makes you look important and smart. Because not only do you get the +1 bonus, but other people will recognize you as that-guy-who-said-that-cool-thing-last-month.
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Buy Hex-Rated Stuff, fight the DMCA!
I am more willing to bet it's because many of these people are too impatient to go try to aquire the item themselves. Why work your way up to big man on campus when for $200 you can be
there instantly and be the envy of all your friends. Because of this it has created a supply and demand, which made the market for these items. Too many people don't want to actually play the game on battle.net to increase their character, that takes time to get good, and to hang with the big boys, so for a small one time investment you can become pimp.
You know, if thats what makes someone happy, purchasing virtual items, then why shouldn't we let them purchase virtual items. I buy lots of Legos and I'm a big fish guy, I spend 1000's of dollars on these things a year. Lots of people think I'm stupid for it, but you know what, thats what I like in life, I enjoy it and it makes me happy, thats what its all about.
The only problem I see is the fact that you can win at something because you have lots of money. But you know what, isn't that what the real world is anyway? I think Microsoft used this tactic, and someone by the name of my favorite breakfast juice...
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
...Buying LOW ICQ numbers.
We've sunk to a WHOLE NEW LOW.
People sure do suck.
Go see ramdac
Yeah this has come up at least once before on Slashdot. On one of the prior occasions, someone had argued that the practise of selling game items was odd but legitimate. It comes down to use value. How is buying a magic sword in DiabloII any different than buying better cleats for softball? Things that are bought for large sums of money that have no use other than image (like $$$ Nikes) scare me far worse.
The addiction aspect is what trips me out though. 12 hours a day. Yeesh.
>I believe this has been talked about on /. before, but is the 'problem' getting worse? Is it a 'problem' at all?"
The only problen of d2 is that is doesn't run on linux!
D'oh jet another ac.
I used to play EQ where 'farming' items was a problem. Eventually I got sick of it and stopped playing (but not just because of the farming). I think if other people can get ahead by purchasing digital items with real cash on the side, I need to find a different game to play. I know that modern gaming is supposed to support exchanging "things" but I guess I'm too old fashioned. I'd rather play a game where the determining difference is how much skill I have in the game, and when you can swap badges of these skill or (as is often the case now days) SELL them, there's really no way you can tell if someone really has the skill/dedication, or just shelled out some money to look cooler.
A few years back, a programmer working on Ultima Online was fired for selling in game items on e-bay. He would create the accounts on the server, stack in a few of the requested items, and then sell them.
It could turn into an extra revenue stream for the developers if used very carefully, but such a thing would eventually destroy the game for average players. And here is another question for you to consider. Is it illegal for a hacker to create these items using a bug or hack, and then sell them for cash? And of course, I mean outside of the legality issues of hacking onto the servers in the first place.
END COMMUNICATION
Several people have posted complaining that these gamers are trading "real money" for "flipping a few bits inside a machine".
Wake up guys, MONEY IS NO MORE REAL THAN THESE GAME ITEMS.
What is the value of a $20 bill? The paper and ink (and metal threads, and whatever else they throw in these days) aren't worth very much. The value of a $20 bill is *whatever people will give you for it*.
I think the people who are trading hundreds of dollars for these game items are paying far too much, but there is no inherent reason why such transactions are wrong.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
People take there high level characters and kill things at a much lower level just for the items. This is called farming.
When this happens it takes away from the people who need that item for game play. There are whole guilds that just farm, and camp the monster with the items and don't allow anyone else to fight that monster, even if its neccesary for the continuation of the game.
of course I have no sympathy for the makers of these game since they insist on not solving these problems programatically.
Its really not that hard.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'd better jump on the ball and become the IRS of Diablo II then. I'll make a fortune! Muhahaha!
Its actually kind of funny, the "coin" of the Diablo 2 world (for in game trades at least) is a ring called the Stone of Jordan. Since it is rather good equipment, and only takes up one slot in the inventory, it made sense to be the standard monetary unit. Then everyone figured out ways to either dupe them (a way that you could trick the game into giving you two of them if you only had one to start) or ways to get them through gamboling for items. Now, one would expect that since there were so many fake ones out there, or that since there are so many of them, that the value of them would plummet. Oddly enough that hasn't happened, and most people who trade in game will start out by listing the item they have, and how many SOJ's they want for it. Now if only the US economy could work like that I wouldn't have to worry about getting laid off any time soon.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Just the idea of being able to go back to my parents and saying "See, you were wrong! I *can* make a living playing video games!" would be worth it.
What the hell -- people auction off domain names. Isn't that the same thing? It isn't "real", either.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Sorry, Jeff, you'd rather it come from me than Adrian.
A buddy of mine played Everquest every night for months. His wife constantly told him what a waste of time it was. Then, one day, he got tired of the game and sold his high level character on EBay for $1500. She hasn't bothered him about playing games since.
This sort of thing is no worse than the Beanie Baby craze. If you can make good money playing games (or buying and selling stuffed dolls for hundreds more than the 50 cents worth of material they're made of), more power to you. I'm not into gaming as much as I used to be, but if I was I'd be more than happy to harvest items and sell them for cash. Talk about the ultimate job.
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
Buy from me! You have an account that was in effect before there was the Karma Kap! Get an account where you can troll for much longer than the 50 karma ones!
...is that when these items get sold for real $$, those of us who don't want to spend out hard-earned dollars of intangible computer game items end up having to pay HUGE in-game money for the same item. Alot of the "uber" items in EverQuest are like this, and it does not surprise me to see it happen in D2. It really feks up the in-game economy.
But, this is old news.
Awhell, I play EQ for fun, not for a power trip. Hell, if I was in it for a power trip, I'd have to camp for hours on end, and basically give up my life. (But, that's EverCamp for ya.) As it stands, I'm happy with my non-uber items, and my non-uber character. Makes him that much more unique to me. I'm not going to pay money that is better spent on my bills, or on a toy for my truck than for a toy inside a game that I'll eventually lose interest in, anyways. (No matter how cool I feel after the fact.)
Just my $.02.
--
No sig here, nothing to see, go about your business.
Ok, so you've got $25,000 eating a hole in your pocket and you want to buy that extra-special Sword of Sudden Doom (and tomato slicing) in Evercrack, DiabloII, .
/is/ the suffering and stress and paranoia of the lower levels. It's the effort and intrigue it takes to survive at those lower levels and work you way up. Once you get up high and don't have to worry any more, the game's over. So throw away your character and start a new one from scratch.
Sure, you can probably find someone to sell it to you. Sure, you can pick it up and start using it in game. Sure, it'll help you survive (probably by a large margin). But then where's the fun?
The game
If you leapfrog that whole phase and jump right into the uber-powered elite, then you've just skipped over all the enjoyment. It's just like when I was playing AD&D all the time and constantly encountering players who didn't want to play mages below 5th level "because it was just too hard". Phtt. Rodents.
Sure, I'll accept that the overwhelming majority of players out there don't appreciate the pleasure of struggling at the low power levels. These guys just hate that low level crap and want to get over to wailing on critters so large that only its ankle appears on their monitors.
Let these guys waste their money robbing themselves of the true pleasure of the game. It doesn't do anything to reduce my pleasure, and it removes these weenies from my immediate surroundings.
They're doing what they want and giving me a reason to call them lamers. I like that. Everyone wins.
-- Nolite audere delere orbiculum rigidum meum.
The one problem I can see with having virtual items being sold for real currency is that ultimately the market for items in the on-line world is very malleable. The value of items is ultimately dependent on their scarcity and when the scarcity of an item is as simple as a changed parameter in a computer system, I can see real problems developing.
A couple examples of what could go wrong:
1) Somebody buys an item for $1000 figuring that it's going to go up in value. A few days later, the game designers decide to make that item very common. Can the game designers be held liable for financial losses incurred by that person's failed speculation?
2) In a permutation on item 1, what if the developers had made that change intentionally to destroy the market for those items?
3) What if a game designer adds a powerful item so that they can corner the market, selling them off for a handsome profit?
4) What if a bug in the system accidentally causes a fluctuation in the scarcity of a particular item (making it much easier to come by)?
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
faraway server, be worth thousands of dollars in the real world?
Isn't the software industry moving towards that with .NET anyway?
I don't understand. Why would people pay so much money for a diablo 2 item, when they could just use a save game editor and create what ever item they wanted to.
This Just In...
.com age. Global economies that lessen the spread between the haves and the have nots.
IMF endorses Everquest as economic development platform for emerging nations.
Think about it. MMORPG's have succeeded in creating one of the only virtual economic systems that has established trade & currency rates against the world's established economies.
You could take a computer and satellite net access nearly anywhere, teach someone who currently makes US $0.35 a day how to play the game, and make back the investment of computer and net access withing a few months. After that, an adapted player might be able to make $2/hr-$100/hr. Most of these sales might not support an american in the lifestyle they have become accustomed to, but nearly all of these reported bounties might go a long way towards (as mentioned) funding a college tuition or even the development of a whole community.
It might be far fetched, but it also might be the leading edge of some of the things the net promised and never delivered in the
Since I'm way out on a ledge predicting things that will probably never happen let me continue.
2004: After launching a mostly unsuccessful MMORPG company XYZCorp slowly begins selling rare items via ebay on the sly. Discovered and villified by the press and fans, this company's game is soon abandoned. However, it plants the seed in a few heads.
2007: Company ABCCorp launches an MMORPG that includes various features, items and abilities that can be augmented by paying ABCCorp directly.
2013: A "lottery" MMORPG is created that includes a complex form of gambling that involves paying for the opportunity to enter areas, receive quests and conduct raids. HAlf of this money is returned to the game in the form of prize pools that reward the luckiest and most dedicated players with cash prizes for completing very hard tests & adventures. Incredible feats and new discoveries could pay out "lottery" style winning of tens of thousands of dollars.
sleeper
(OK, I am putting down the crack pipe now)
I don't think it's a problem in the sense that it's spoiling the fun of the game for others, in the sense that it's cheating, or anything. It's just like buying and selling Magic cards or something like that. It doesn't spoil everything for the people who just like to play from time to time.
It can be a problem for those who spend more money than they have, and end up going into debt or denying themselves food and the like for weapons.
It's the same as any other hobby, y'know? Why single it out as a "problem" because it's with video games instead of baseball cards or something?
If you gain an advantage from something you did not work for, could it be said that you have gained an unfair advantage?
I don't play these online roleplaying games, but let me give you a real-life example...
Let us say I am beating the snot out of Mike Tyson (hey this is my example, I can beat up Mike Tyson in my exmples) and I'm up by several points. Don King comes over to my corner, hands me some cash and I take a enough hits to give Mike some more points.
Money for a score, where as this Ebaying is money for an item in a game without scores. Either way you're taking a dive.
Yeah ok buddy.
in Half-Life it is only my skill which changes my ability to get a weapon. And if it is gone, I just wait for a while and it will be back. And if not I just kill the next sucker standing by and get it. But now for the serious comment. Besides playing stupid online shooters I still play MUDs (Multi-User-Dungeons), the good ol' text based ones. We are definitely not as massive as these new Ecoquest, Ultima Online, and whatever but we see the same problems. People offering (virtual) money for swords, to kill somebody, a quest or whatever you can achieve in the game. We don't carry it out on ebay, though. If virtual money (which belongs to the game) is offered, I do not see any problems with that. You earn the money in the game and everybody has basically the same chance to do so. In the real-world (and please no "that's capitalism" replies now) not everyone has the same chance. And some people might get incredible powerful in a very short time. And that kills the fun in the game (IMHO). In those MUDs I play, you have admins that take care of it. You even have a player council that might take care of it. I am looking forward to play Neverwinter Nights, an RPG that will allow 64 simultaneous players. I can run my own server and if people wreck the game, they get banned (/evil grin).
How would you feel if you were playing online chess and discovered that the opponent that beat you 10 straight games had done so with a chess program he purchased? I know that I would feel cheated because I was playing against him to test my skill against his. I don't care if he bought the chess program on "the free market."
The idea of a game is to pit players against one another and let the best player win, not to sell the victory to the player with the most disposable income and least scruples.
I've seen AOL screen names for sale on Ebay. It wouldn't surprise me to start seeing three-character AIM screen names; someone stole all of them with an exploit (that AOL still hasn't patched, after about a year and a half from what I understand) and the script kiddies have been trading them as commodities. If you have a three-character AIM screen name, you should be able to use it to sign up for AOL as well, and I'm sure there must be a demand for names like "ibm" and "foo" (among those who actually use AOL).
Just a thought.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Judging from your user ID#, I suspect you weren't around when this was tried.
/. management (well, Rob and at least one other) described the whole thing.
Somebody with a high-hundreds/low thousands karma (i.e. a student with *far* too much time on their hands) (was it FascDotKilledMyPR? apologies if I'm wrong.) tried to flog their account on ebay. Apparently, there were some ridiculously high bids (some valued karma more than dollars)
In one of his rare moments of creative lucidity, Rob 'CmdrTaco' Malda aranged for the karma for this individual to vary (at random) between a cap value and zero, with the cap value reducing at a rate that would bring it to zero at the moment the ebay auction closed.
The whole debacle is best recorded in an IRC log where the
This ends your "Boring And Useless" slashdot history lesson.
{ps - no URLs, because I have better things to do than look them up}
wasn't this the dream? The day we could make a living from playing video games? Where's the problem?
It used to be about 40,000. Now it's more than 2*10^6. Way to go Rob! No more trading of low-numbered accounts. Hell, success must hurt. Let me know when I can have some.
In Diablo 2's expansion, we now have a choice of 7 character types. Since getting one up to a level where you can enjoy the game to it's fullest, with the most difficult monsters and best item drops takes 100 hours or more of play, most players don't have the time to play each character type to this level. Therefore items found along the character's development which are not suited to that character type, and may be excellent, can be made available for others to use.
Personally I am now a member of a guild (Knights of the Sacred) that emphasizes sharing and trading of items amongst guild members. Prior to joining this guild, I had made about $600 from selling items. I have probably purchased $200 worth of items as well.
What I needed I was able to find from those people that didn't need it and vice-versa.
There are just too many items, too many character classes, and too much time required to invest to play each character type to use up the great items one will find getting just one character up to high levels.
I applaud Blizzard in not interfering with player's methods of sharing items.
See for yourself. Recently closed items w/ "Diablo II" in the title, sorted by closing price.
Playing a game as your job sounds ideal, but these are young kids we're talking about. What begins as fun for them (powerleveling characters, finding "phat lewt") won't stay that way for long.
Traders call the shot about where they can play and what they do with their time. The kids probably only see a small fraction of the enormous profits being generated from their virtual loot. And the online communities in which they play usually hold them in contempt, no matter how high their level or sweet their loot, because they are known as loot farmers. Doesn't sound like their life is quite so hot when I think about it this way.
ancarett, historian and zombie gamer
So..
since things in the virtual world have value does this mean that if I
I did some hunting around on e-bay to see how viable this really is. I found that of the 5227 items that popped up in a search for "diablo 2":
4397 of the items were priced less than $10.
456 of the items were priced between $11-25.
227 of the items were priced between $26-$50.
95 items were priced between $51-$100.
38 items were priced between $101-$200.
and 14 were priced higher than $201 (and one of those 14 isn't related to the game, it's a windsurfing sail).
Eyeballing the lists, it appears that more than half of the auctions at all level have no bids. This is just a guesstimate (I don't have time to count up the number of bids on the 5,080 items less than $50, it is true for the items over $51)
I'm highly skeptical that anyone could routinely make >$5000 month, easy, as is claimed by the guy in the article.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
In D2, item drops are completely random - if I find a stone of jordan, your chances of finding an SOJ are exactly the same. And anyway, item hunters aren't going to hang out anywhere but Act 4/5 Hell difficulty, where there are no newbies.
Have you ever sold a car? Did you design the car?Gimme a break.
It almost makes me want to get some of the auto leveler scripts out there and combine them into a marketing tool, for the express purpose of collecting items for later sale on E-Bay.
If people want to pay, great -- they just open up the incentive for anyone else with a bit of greed to squeeze the game for every cent its worth, screw actual gameplay.
This is almost like paying people to spam you. I bet that they'll regret allowing this "market" to flourish in the long run.
Hotblack_Desiato
** By reading this post, you've agreed to my EULA - which includes not modding-down due to difference in opinion. **
My ID# is where it should be - 41002. Like I give a fuck. (on the other hand, is that worth $5 on ebay...)
... when he said "There's a sucker born every minute."
In real life lots of people buy their way into positions they don't deserve. I don't know why a virtual world would be different. But since it's really your character in the virtual world, not you, I don't see what difference it makes where the other characters come from, whether they bought or earned their stuff, or even whether they are played by real people or AI. It's just a game.
They all run on Linux properly, unlike Diablo1. Diablo2 runs flawlessly on Linux via WINE. Diablo2, in all its stages of release, runs excellent in Direct3D and even better, GLIDE, a Direct3D-to-openGL wrapper, and even a GLIDE-to-openGL wrapper. You must find the win32 wrapper software and install it on your pseudo Windows filetree. The only problem people have in running Diablo2 on Linux is Blizzard Inc's video detection software hangs for some people.
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
... you can make money with the Internet :)
are soon parted. Hey, where'd my money go? ;)
To each their own I guess, but it sounds pretty goofy to me.
Well guys, hasn't it always been this way in one shape or another? In -almost- every single game I've played, the man with the wallet is the winner. Let me give you a few examples:
Counter-strike: I can afford a DSL line. I snipe you because you're too lagged to move. I win. -point and laugh-
Magic: The Gathering: I can buy a bigger better deck than you. I'm going to win! I think I'm taking all the fun out of the game but I really am not. Haha. -point and laugh-
Diablo 2: I can buy a Stone of Jordan because I have a better job. Nya nya nya nya nya. I'm going to make the game horrible for all of you because I have a great advantage...
These people can be ignored, are ignored, and simply don't have the pride of earning an item. Now is your turn to -point and laugh- at them.
--Z;)Bu911
PayPal $$ if you sign up for free offers (eBay, cred cards, e
I am a Sysadmin. I do not work cheap. My services run a minimum of $25 an hour, which is not cheap (Although if I wanted a much more intense job I could get double that.).
I play EverQuest in my free time. In EverQuest, there is a very cool item I wanted called A Flowing Black Silk Sash. The sash is a rather powerful item, is always in demand, and is somewhat rare. This has created conditions that make getting the sash take anywhere from a few hours with help from some friends, to a few days with a bit of luck. Given my character's status on her server, it probably would have taken me six to twelve hours to get this item. That works out to $150-$300 US of my time.
Instead, I tracked down someone selling his EverQuest account on ebay. I emailed him to see if he had said sash for sale on one of his characters, and sure enough he did. Within 24 hours we had exchanged the money via paypal and the item in game. Total cost to me = $100 and about ten minutes of free time, and I actually did the work while on the job. I was then able to use those extra hours study new things to do as a sysadmin, thus increasing my marketability, and in the long run, my overall salary.
Some people call me a cheater, I think of myself as economically minded.
While the purchasing of online game items may not seem so bad, it can have a definite negative impact on the online gaming community.
Imagine a game where on the back of the box it says earn valuable items and sell them for a profit on Ebay. I can easily imagine where the future of gaming is devoted to earning these "uber" items to make a profit in real life.
This practice should not be allowed. After all how can u sell something that belongs on someone elses server. You pay your monthly fee for the right to play on that server. not sell off items that exist on that server.
This practice also ruins the game for those that try to advance there characters the way the designers intended. If a lvl 50+ uber god is camping that item that u need to sell it, your chances of getting it are very small.
Ultima Online unfortunetly promotes this practice. Ive played UO for 3 years. Cheats and exploits are used to create online items, such as purple armor or receiving more vet awards then alloted. I have even seen people standing around the bank and advertise 100k online money for 10.00 real cash. obviously the people working for ultima online know about it and could care less. Lame way to promote the continuation of a game
This is exactly what happened with Magic-The-Gathering cards a few years back.
For those who don't know, Magic cards used to be extremely valuable as collector's items. I spent over $300 dollars at one point on them. Then I sold them for over $1000. Then the bottom dropped out.
My speculator friends and I did fine, as we saw the crash coming (or guessed right), but the kids who were betting the bank on some few "ultra-powerful" early-edition cards were in for a surprise when they came back (Serra Angel, for one) in the 4th (3rd? I forget) edition.
Yep, collecting anything with "dubious" value is just insane. That's why I keep all my money in bars of gold! (posting anonymously to preserve precious karma)
Uhhh, exactly $20 in the USA.
Any questions?
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
My own Mother! She isnt aggresive or obsessed enough to hang waiting for houses on UO, so she bought one from a "virtual realtor". This guy makes about 10 sales a day. Making good money too.
Seems NUTS to me, since I like to earn my booty, but she would rather play 'house' and decorate her new tower.
People paying real money for virtual items is simply nature's way of leveling the brains to money ratio.
"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
As long as you have lamers who want to ruin the fun of actually playing the game for themselves, this'll continue to happen. Just let them. Image is everything in america, and people like to flaunt a good image. Whether it's a flashy looking car, a hot chick, a huge mansion, or an ultra-powerful char on diablo ii. It's good old american values at work, so not really a problem per se. Can't really do anything about it anyway. If you ban that stuff on ebay, they'll just go through other means to sell their chars/items. Just play the game, have fun, and ignore the lamers.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
A couple of friends of mine made some serious amounts of money selling/buying/trading Asheron's Call characters and items last year. You'd be surprised how close to 'real world' markets some of these deals went...Often they would buy a character with decent items cheap on eBay, hold it for a week, and then just split the character up and sell the items and character seperately making a profit on the whole deal..Somewhat similar to robber barons buying up companies, spliting them up and selling off the pieces. Pay Pal and eBay both acted as great facilitators, with electronic money changing hands back and forth fludily between parties.
Having said that, no, I really don't understand the mindset of someone who pays $500 or more for 'uberloot' or a very high level character.
In order to find the items that sell for hundreds of dollars on eBay, you're going to have to spend hundreds of manhours looking for them. Gee, hundreds of hours to find something that sells for only hundreds of dollars... wouldn't that mean that you're only making at most a few dollars an hour? And when you play Diablo II that much, it really stops becoming fun. There are much more fulfilling (and sometimes much more profitable) ways of spending one's time.
Besides, everyone knows Baldur's Gate II 0wns Diablo in the go-around-and-kill-stuff-and-get-phat-l00t category.
Those who pay obscene amounts are newbies to the game. Those items are probably far from their reach as they start the game.
Those mmorpgs (whatever) have no sense of balance at all. They are all about abuse, the fastest way to power.
Thing is, it isn't possible to create a balanced mmorpg at the first try. Probably not in a hundred tries. But I'm not sure if they can tune things in the game at will as they are commercial games.
Many comments posted go into great detail about how stupid these people are for purchasing; but really, although I don't condone it in anyway (if the primary servers go down, you got screwed for umm, what, 5000$? You can't go and get that back on those grounds), but, if people want to spend their savings on a ring of +10(or -20 in this case) intelligence (grin :), then that is their option.
Trust me, I can do more, way more, than I spend on a virtual item than I would invest in my time to get it. Not that I would ever buy some, but I have played virtual games a lot and I know what kind of killer it is!
And to be honest, I rather pay $25 for a virtual sword that I for a DVD, because I will have way more fun with it. People have just no idea about what the real value of money is, when they complain about these purchases or sound like its any good living.
Oh, my so two skilled computer wizards got $2000 cash each in two weeks. Is this anything special? There are people paid way more for computer support and its as virtual as these items. :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
It used to be that people would write into contracts that a certain portion of debt had to be repaid in gold, as protection against devaluation of the dollar. By making the greenback legal tender, these sorts of contracts were made unenforcable. Furthermore, in the options and futures markets, one does not necessarily have to pay in shares of stock or barrels of oil, or whatever. One may instead delviver the fair market value of those goods. Finally, if you were to offer in trade a car in exchange for (for example) two cows, then you would be legally obligated to accept the dollar value of two cows.
Basically what I'm driving at is this: it is illegal to refuse to accept US dollars within the borders of the US. You are right that hyperinflation could devalue currency very quickly, however as long as the police and, push come to shove, the armed forces, have enough power to keep the population in line, the value of a dollar cannot hit zero.
That being said, I agree with your point that if people will give you money for your Diablo stuff, it has value. It is certainly a highly unstable investment, but that doesn't mean its necessarily worthless.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Some people (like me) love to play DiabloII alot, so we sell our best items found on the highest levels. Some people (like the buyers who lurk on ebay) don't like to play very much or don't have alot of extra time but still want cool items to use when they do play.
It's simple economics, supply and demand. What's hard to understand about that?
And quite often when I raze Hell in someone elses game I will drop the stuff that is better than they can get but not worth selling or trading, works for both parties. I love hearing "WOW, I just found a glorious XXXXX on the ground", knowing I dropped it there while raiding ahead of the other occupants.
$500 for an item in a game? Uhm... Losers?
Interesting that you would refer to MS Office as a tangible item. Goes to show how well Microsoft has succeeded in taking software from something ethereal to a box you buy in the store.
...i thought they were adding bacon as a new item in Diablo 2!
I have a fairly high-level Diablo II character, a level 70 barbarian who has completed all quests to include the newly-added Act 5 quests from the expansion pack, all in Hell difficulty.
He's already got some real kick-ass gear, chief among those a war club capable of basically insta-gibbing Andariel on normal difficulty and a set of ancient plate providing 700+ in defense.
Now, I've had some folks lambast my character due to the fact that he uses this big old hammer without the use of a shield, but I figure that's okay: It's within his character to get hit a bunch by the boogerheads, and I accept that outcome during a normal gaming session.
Now, with the expansion pack, I see on Diabloii.net that there is this new item set that seems for all intents and purposes to be genetically designed for my character: big honkin' hammer, plate, belt, boots, gauntlets, and helmet -- all way more better than what he's currently packing.
Now that he's passed all the trials before him, I see no better way for him as a character to wile away the days than to search for that complete item set.
However, in all honesty, it would me/him YEARS to collect them.
I myself would pay a premium for the complete set from some other D2 player, but certainly not in triple-digits. I would do so because the D2 character I run in question is ready to ascend to NPC status, I have no interest whatsoever in playing him other than to have him help out other folks finish the necessary quests.
Maybe I might be interested in getting him to clvl 99, but not nearly as much as I'd like to see him get that set.
I'm ready to retire him to being a secondary character to someone else's adventure, I'd just like to get him 100% complete in the process.
If the game itself would only drop *one* of those items, I'd forego the monetary route, but in all sad honesty, it's not gonna happen.
Does this make sense?
IF.cmg
This was a story in PC Gamer a year ago.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Its quite obviously not just UO and Diablo 2, its Everquest as well...
...
I made 775 bucks for selling my everquest account, which I calculated as making 25 cents per hour (after costs) for playing a game
Theres no problem for me, quite obviously...
they forgot to cover user accounts, thats some good moneymaking shit right there. Imagine, having an account thats a Hardcore Lvl 99. There are lots of dumb people out there
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
Which specifically points out that in Diablo II, this is NOT the case.
Buckets,
pompomtom
"There's an exception to every rule. Except for some rules"
The value of a $20 bill is ..... nothing, in once sence. Its value is what you can buy with it. Did you know that in one year that $20 bill will be able to buy $19.40 worth of stuff, assuming 3% inflation?
I really don't see a difference between purchasing a $150 rod and reel to enhance you fishing experience, a $1500 TV to enjoy the game in digital quality, and purchasing a better sword for your online character. Why do so many people see video game playing as a vice and "useful" hobbies like golf or knitting as a life building experience? Just because I don't collect comic books, doesn't mean I have the right to pass it off as a childish, time consuming, expensive waster of time... The exact description I've heard when discussing almost any passtime related to computers.
Many MMORP companies now include a clause in the user license agreement that says something to the effect of:
"we reserver the right to ban your account(s) or revoke item(s) without prior notice if you are caught selling items outside of the game."
This phenomenon has given rise to new terms such as "item farmers" and "rare-drop campers". These groups of unprincipled players make it nearly impossible for a small party or individual to "win" the item(s) through proper gameplay and skill. This has a deleterious effect on the gameplay and reduces the overal value of the game experience for all the other players. What economists call a negative externality, that is to say a negative result for a third party to the original transaction. In this case other players being unable to acquire rare items in the ways that the game designers originally intended because people are greedy and take them to sell offline. If you play these games (Ultima, Everquest, et al) and you participate in the selling of game items outside of the game then I respectfully ask you to consider the harm that you are doing to the game. In the same way that parasistes are not beneficial to the host so you too are not beneficial to the growth and continued enjoyment of the industry or the game. If you get your account baned for selling items outside of the game believe me when I say that nobody will sympathise with your plight in the least. In conclusion, Please do not sell game items outside of the game (eBay, BidBay, whatever). If you are a player who buys from these people then you are just as much a part of the problem. Remember that as long as people demand these kinds of transactions somebody will supply them. If you care about the game and its continued growth then you will not engage in these kinds of purchases. Thank you for reading.
http://www.mmorpgbid.com/
A new auction site that caters to MMORPG players is nearing completion. Check it out to be the first users and get freebies!
I've spent about $200 cumulatively on Diablo 2 LoD equipment.
The way I see it-- I can either spend 40-100 hours trying to find really good stuff (which, at my income level comes out to about $1000-$2500 worth of my time), or I can just buy the good stuff on ebay for much less and waste far fewer hours playing the game.
I still get to build a high level charectar by killing stuff for exp, I still do the quests, and I still have fun... More so than the traditional way even. So why not?
I sold my Ultima online account two years ago for six hundred and ten dollars. That was after a year and a half of playing three hours or so a day. Eventually I got two large houses and three small ones, and a boat, which means i had basically maxed out on the material wealth you can have in the game.
The guy who bought it was a bartender in florida somewhere. I guess the appeal seemed to be that he could resell it if he ever got bored, and he would be able to play and be influential right away and be able to start a guild.
But as with any economic system, people will only buy items in the long run if they believe they can resell them for more. That said, if you do that math I was making only a fraction of a dollar an hour for playing this game. All in all, seemed like a fair trade and I got a spiffy new graphics card and a watch for my efforts.
What, are you the Fresh Prince, pre-BelAir?
"Hey! I paid $300 for this armor, it said it gives you plus +300 to life, but everyone tells me I still have no life. I don't get it."
I sold my UO account for a bit over $1200, and if the game hadn't taken a nose-dive into the toilet just shortly before, it would have gone for closer to $2000.
:>
You can't buy fame and power in real-life, but you can in games.
Being a die-hard Diablo II fan, I would like to give praise to Blizzard with making a game that is so good, it's still the subject of heated debate after being out for over a year, an eternity in the computer gaming world. I think, however, that the people who buy D2 items on e-bay are only ruining the game for themselves. Most of the time, it doesn't matter what other people have equiped, the game is the same for me. However, finding good items is one of the best parts of the game, along with spending hours and hours leveling your character. Even if someone gave me an account with a lvl 99 char in it, and a whole bunch of great items, I wouldn't play it. Getting there is half the fun, right?
I should note that if I wanted to, I could easily sell my account for a couple hundred bucks. I might do it too, if I ever lose interest in the game.
that this is very real. I know someone who definately makes very good money off selling diablo-2 equipment online.
Contrary to what people think...most of the sales are NOT for large money. They are from a couple bucks to about $20, that's it. You make the money on volume.
It's not like it takes no effort either. The time taken to acquire the gear, complete the auctions, devlier items, post new auctions, etc, can be considerable.
Some say it's rediculous; I say, it's great. Some people can play D2 for 6 hours a day or more. Some have jobs, and can only play a couple hours.. so they have the option of going online, and reliably buying a few cool items to play with, rather than spending the time (time is money).
Cheers.
First, you won't see a game that says this. Why? Because their has to be DEMAND in order to get money. And there is never demand without a reason.
How can you sell things that belong on someone elses server? You aren't 'selling' an item. You are simply giving someone the benefit of the results of your own work in exchange for money.
Why do you have a problem with people selling the items to others who wish to buy them?
How does it ruin the game? and what game are you referring to? It certainly doesn't ruin diablo2....
Games where you get people camping out to sell stuff online.. I can see your point. But banning the online sale is not the answer; modifying the game to prevent camping is the answer, whether by not having items spawn on the same character all the time, or other anti-camping features.
Why should people care what happens outside their game? Sorry.. welcome to the real world. If something has value to someone else, then cash can be exchanged for it.
...so you might as well maximize your satisfaction and that of those around you whilest ya can.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
The reason there is a problem in some games, like EQ, where guilds will camp out and lock down areas of the game to get the items to sell them....is because the real-world value of the items creates a demand for the items in-game that was not forseen by the developers. But it is the players who create this demand, by buying the items in the first place.
The problem, of course, is there are some players with jobs/money to burn, and others who don't, and it would seem unfair to those who don't.
However.. I know full well that people also monopolize areas of a game for OTHER reasons besides e-bay... in-game reasons... so really, it's an overall game-design problem.
If the people at Blizzard have ways of logging these things (the purchase would be logged by ebay, etc, but the game mechanics would pretty much have to be logged on battle net), it could make for a very interesting court case / slashdot article someday in the future.
Seeing someone sucessfully prosecuted for selling a fraudulent item would also be an interesting way of discouraging duping, etc.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
If any part of the game is a "waste", then why play it at all? At their base, all 'games' are 'wastes of time', after all.
-bZj
.sig
if the people want to blow their money, than who am I to stop them. I just wish I could convince someone that my uber-charged pocket lint of quantum wonder really is as good as advertised. (It keeps albino frogs from falling on your head... because since I have noticed the lint, I have yet to have any albino frogs nail me in the nogg'n.)
I seek not only to follow in the footsteps of the men of old, I seek the things they sought.
Brings to mind a situation that happened in the UO community a while back. An Origin employee at the time used his job's status as a Game Master to create thousands of dollars worth of items and fence them off on eBay.
As a seller of items, I see no problems with people buying them. Like a few previous posters have stated: if it makes you happy, more power too it. So.. I sell these items. Now will you judge me with what I do with my money? Why don't you just judge everyone who doesn't spend money like you do-- what about smokers? Not only are they spending lots of money yearly, they are spending it on something that could kill them.
People spend their money for two things: survival and enjoyment. And as long as people can buy their way to happiness (however short lived it may be) they will do so.
Now, if you will excuse me, I need to go buy a sack of dank weed with the money I made formerly selling Towers in UO, and the money I continue to make with my high level sorceress on Diablo II.
heyitsme
Sound like my ex girlfriend...
"Bloody hell josh, it's a car, you'll never get your money back"
"You're gonna do WHAT to your car now!!?!??!?"
Same sort of thing... To me, it's money well spent (I don't expect it back, I expect increased enjoyment driving my car), but she just couldn't understand it.
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
I'm the game designer for Genetic Anomalies, the online arm of THQ. We've been doing online virtual game collectibles since 1997. Chron X, a post apoc/gritty science fiction collectible card game, went on sale in May of 1997. We have had 5 card sets released and some cards from the first set fetch between $10 and $14. Why? Because they are useful.
[/ad content]
Why is this OK? Because the expensive, rare cards in Chron X aren't signifigantly more powerful than the other cards in the game... or if they are more powerful they come with a hefty in-game cost. In Everquest, Ashron's Call, Ultima Online or Diablo II there is no in-game cost to using a very rare item or spell or whatever. And since many of the games have a direct head-to-head component, it quickly turns into whoever-spend-the-most-wins. A horrible game mechanic if there ever was one.
We actively encourage the secondary market of our products (Chron X, Star Trek Conquest Online, and WWF With Authority). We do this because we think it gives people a way out if they dislike the game -- their money isn't wrapped up into something they can't cash out of. IF they like the game and stay in it and win (or buy) extra cards, they can sell the cards they don't want or can't use.
The idea that you should restrict the sale of virtual components to a game is a fallacy. You can't prevent it. So embrace it instead. Give users good tools to use like secure trading online, offline trading (where the two characters don't need to be in the same virtual space at the same time to trade goods), and trading histories. Then make sure that the rare items have a gameplay cost and you're all set.
A Diablo II example: You could have this great, all-powerful sword but make it take up almost all of the spots you get to carry items. Now the rarer items are great but require real thought to use. Isn't this a more fair way to do it?
Online wrestling as a trading card game? WWF With Authority.
"Legal tender" only applies to "payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal law mandating that a person or organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services."
read the full explanation
"The game /is/ the suffering and stress and paranoia of the lower levels"
That couldn't be farther from the truth.
Diablo 2 (with expansion, since that's what most people on the Closed Battle.net realms* use these days) has 3 difficulty levels and 5 acts. The difficulty levels are normal, nightmare and hell. You must beat each act in sequence progress to the next difficulty level.
Normal is easy. Normal is *ridiculously* easy. The ONLY way to make normal SLIGHTLY difficult is to play a sick variant character (like a sorceress that doesn't use spells and tries to compete in melee combat).
Normal is also boring. There's no fear of dying. The first act plays the same every single time, and it's damn slow.
Never mind that each character class will generally play the same way through normal. It normally isn't until you reach mid nightmare or hell that a specific character is developed enough (with skill distribution and equipment) for you to start being able to use strategies you've developed or had in mind for the character.
"Sure, I'll accept that the overwhelming majority of players out there don't appreciate the pleasure of struggling at the low power levels. These guys just hate that low level crap and want to get over to wailing on critters so large that only its ankle appears on their monitors."
Perhaps there's a reason for this? Why do people play video games. In most cases it's to have fun, right? What would most people consider to be more fun, tromping around a small grassy field with a disk of wood strapped to one forearm and a small pointy piece of metal strapped to the other, poking zombies that are so slow they routinely die before they can even take a swing at you...or running (or teleporting) around wearing a powerful set of armor you wrested from the cold body of some vile demon, wielding a magical weapon you had to work long and hard to acquire, fighting hordes of demons that *will* kill you if you falter? There are reasons most people like the mid-to-end-game more than the early game. What's wrong with that?
"Let these guys waste their money robbing themselves of the true pleasure of the game. It doesn't do anything to reduce my pleasure, and it removes these weenies from my immediate surroundings."
Obviously you think something is wrong with that. They're "weenies" and "robbing themselves of the true pleasure of the game." This is the "true pleasure" defined by you, right? Where no one else could really be enjoying the game as much as you are because they aren't playing the game the way that gives you the most enjoyment?
"They're doing what they want and giving me a reason to call them lamers. I like that. Everyone wins."
What reason is that? The fact that they:
a. don't enjoy playing the game the way you do
b. do what they want and not what you want
I'm not convinced those are reasons enough to call people lamers. Sorry, take your rant elsewhere.
~Moller
"Um, that's perfect topazes, not diamonds. Current reports suggest that a magic find percentage over 200 doesn't do much good, so there's no need to go overboard."
In the most recent patch (v1.09) Blizzard implemented a Diminishing returns formula for items that added a % chance to find magic items (magic find). A full explanation of magic find is here at Blizzard's official strategy site. Items can drop normal (white colored), magical (blue), rare (yellow), part of an item set (green) or unique (gold). The diminishing returns formula is not posted on that site, but basically diminishing returns kick in bigtime for unique items around 200% increased MF, kick in later for set items and even later for rare items. If you're wearing items that give you a 400% increased chance to find a magical item, you only get like, a 220-230% increased chance of getting a unique.
Blizzard probably implemented this because with the previous patch (1.08), magic find worked on all monsters, including bosses (who always drop at least magical items), so characters were loading themselves down with MF gear and "farming" the bosses over and over to get rares, sets and uniques to drop. (Normal monsters don't always drop, so it's simply more reliable to farm bosses for drops). So since people were abusing magic find, it was decreased in potency ("nerfed").
"And they 'balanced' telekenesis so that you can only pick up minor items (like potions). This is very annoying in single player mode, where there is no one to steal drops from..."
Actually, telekinesis (TK) was changed because someone (or a group of someones) wrote an "item-grabber" hack. The hack basically was a packet sniffer/sender, and when it registered that a rare, set, or unique item had dropped on the ground, it send a packet to the server saying "I picked that item up." Of course, the program could be configured to also grab gold, potions, scrolls, runes, anything. I don't recall if Blizzard broke the functionality of the hack in a patch before deciding to kill Telekinesis to solve the problem...but if they did it most likely took about two days for the people writing the hack to figure out the new packets and re-write the program. The program still works, but since TK is broken it only lets characters pick items up if they are right next to it (I think, there were rumors that players could send packets to make the server think they walked over to an item and picked it up when they didn't move, but that sounds fishy).
"Some moderately valuable items (like the Stone of Jordan ring or perfect skulls) became the new currency for a while. SoJs have become much more rare these days, and aren't used as currency as much."
The Stone of Jordan (SOJ) became a currency because it was a useful item, took up one inventory slot, and was relatively easy to get if you had enough gold (prior to patch 1.08 you could "gamble" for items. The Stone of Jordan is a unique ring. There are two other unique rings, but since before 1.08 uniques couldn't generate if one was already in the game, you could hold the other two rings and spend lots of easily obtainable gold gambling on rings and makes lots of SOJ's).
"Pskulls are an interesting currency, because they are constantly being generated, but also constantly being used up"
PSkulls used to be currency before patch 1.08. PSkulls could be used to "re-roll" the stats on a rare item (rare items have up to 6 modifiers, magic items only 2), and this reroll could produce ANY stat available, with better stats possible than any drop you could get from a monster. PSkulls were also rare, since gems dropped *very* infrequently from monsters, and the highest quality gem that could drop was a normal (3 normals make a flawless, 3 flawless make a perfect, or a gem shrine makes 1 normal go to 1 flawless, etc. there are also chipped and flawed under normal). Now, in 1.09, flawless gems (skulls are gems, technically) can drop, and do drop quite frequently, so they are much more common. Also, the main reason PSkulls plummeted in price was that the way to use 6 PSkulls and a Rare to reroll the rare had it's power decreased GREATLY. It can now produce items with stats 40% as powerful as the previous max (item level of 100 previously possible, max level of 40 available now).
Interestingly, gold (the currency inside the game) isn't often used for trading, because it isn't valuable enough!
That's because you lose a set percentage of your gold when you die, and you can only carry a certain amount of gold. There are other smaller reasons, but those are the main ones.
All in all, it's not too easy to base your economy on factors (like rarity) that can be changed at the whim of some programmers.
Then the programmers deliberately try to affect the economy. Right now new SOJ's are going up because no new ones are coming into the game, and all other items are being produced at an alarming rate. A few more weeks of this and the SOJ currency *might* break, but I doubt it, it's too ingrained in people's minds.
That's about all I can think of about the subject. Hope it helped.
~Moller
Momma told me to use preview. But did I? Noooo....
Earth to Hemos: that's for real.
(This line is added to get around the stupid postercomment compression filter.)
This is only a problem if you're a fucking idiot. Who else would pay so much for the right to RENT an IMAGINARY gee-gaw from a company that could delete all traces of said trinket from the game at a moments notice?
That's right kids: Read your terms of service! Not only do you NOT own you own any of that shit you spent months of game time collecting but it could go away at any time for any (or no) reason. Best thing about this scenario: You suckers are so stupid you'll actually come back for more after such an apocolypse!
Sneer all you want at twitch games, but when was the last time you played a FPS that required a monthly fee and relied on the grace of Sony to continue to function?
I mean, come on. A fool and his money? These people are clearly idiots, and they're going to waste their money on SOMEthing. So why not bilk them for items? That's how I would feel about it.
;-). The only part about it that really annoys me is people "buying their way to power" and gaining godly suits of equipment without having to gain the tiniest bit of skill in whatever game it is. So in a sense it ruins the challenge factor of the game, but twinking is certainly nothing new and there is no argument that will make them stop. ;-)
Sadly, the only game I have godly items for is Diablo 1, and those don't sell too well (plus there's that whole sentimental value thing
Just learn to live with it, and to laugh at the cretins who paid 100 bucks for a Stone of Jordan.
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
Currently in phase 2 beta, this game will have a virtual economy that will be tied to the real world. Players will be able to exchange the game currency for real cash and vice-versa. As well, the client will be free with no monthly charges. A virtual stock exchange is among many of the things planned for this game; whether or not it actually sees the light of day is another question, but it has been in development for quite some time now. I'm hoping to get in on beta 3.
My cat's breath smells like cat food.--R. Wiggums
I have a troll account on Ebay. I seek out sales of gaming items, bid massive ammounts on it.. then when the bidding is over, I give negative feedback.
Works like a charm.
Yep, there's a sword up for $700 right now.
I'd imagine a similar real sword would fetch less than that.
Yah, and some of us enjoy the game of hacking and selling illegitimate items. We find our game more challenging and exciting than the game that the rest of the people are playing. Hackers are the real players. Everyone else is playing a game that is designed for you to win. Hackers are playing a game that has been set up for them to lose. When a hacker wins, it is real. When a 69th level sorc kills Diablo with static/orb- haha.
In the distance you hear an ominous moo.
I suppose they might have to take it, but the bill says nothing about them being required to give you change. Do you think you can consume $100 worth of Burger King before it goes bad?
Hey!!! the parentheses are good for something
At any point in time a $20 bill is worth $20 in those day's dollars. That is of course, until the US government goes bankrupt.
Until then, you can decompose a bill into its constituent atoms and price each one, but that is missing the point. It is worth $20 because the US government guarantees to pay the amount printed on the face.
This is not gold we are talking about here dudes.
Gold is more like the commodities being sold in these games. There is no value printed on them backed up by an institution. Commodities, unlike currency, are worth whatever people are willing to pay.
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
They should make it so that the higher your level is the worse an item an enemy will drop (maybe determined by the level of monster to level of player or something like that). Basically making it so that a lvl 50 can't go around farming early creatures to get decent things to sell, instead he gets less goodthings out of this. As I see it, this should kill off most of the farming that goes on, and make it easier for newer people to get the stuff they need.
thks
$1, payable through paypal. Also doing portals ($5), and can tailor up to reinforced leather ($20), bring your own pelts ($10).
:(
I need to reread the terms of service. I could have sworn they mentioned E-bay, but nothing else.
Darn terms of service.
Damn them to hell!
*sob*
Damn Verant for patching the servers. Those bastards, why can't they be like Sonic Team/PSO and never do anything constructive to the game?
I NEED TO FEED MY ADDICTION!
the game companies will start selling items on their websites. That'll fix'em.
Microsoft Aquires Blizzard Entertainment
Microsoft Gains Rights to All Magic Items
WillyGates Wins Diablo!
Hardly the case these days. I don't know about the rest of you, but here's the path my "real money" takes, from the time I get it, to the time I pay for a CD:
I do my share of work for the pay period, and at the end, I get an e-mail from my bank stating that my employer has transferred funds from their account to mine.
Translation: Bits have been shifted on a disk somewhere, and a few notes might have been scribbled.
I head down to CD World, and hunt for a few CDs that will carry me through the next pay period. I plop down my credit card, which the clerk swipes across the machine, and gives me my CDs, along with a few stamps on my bonus card.
Translation: Bits have been changed on a disk somewhere, in exchange for my receiving the intangible rights to hear this music, along with a bit of plastic, paper, and possibly metal.
Some weeks later, I receive a statement telling me that I need to pay them for these things. At this point, I will either write them a check, or march down to the bank and transfer the funds directly.
Translation: A piece of paper is printed, and carried to me by a postal official. I reply by either writing a check which tells them to withdraw the funds from the account, or by driving down and talking to a teller, who writes a few things, types a few other things, and that's that.
At no point in this entire transaction have I touched a single dollar bill. My employer did not touch a single dollar bill. My bank has the dollar bills, but for purposes of this transaction did not actually touch them.
This same process applies for buying books, gas, meals, groceries, and practically anything else. These merchants seem to be happy to trade their goods for bits on a hard disk somewhere -- Why should we damn people trading bits for bits?
If we do that, you may as well fire me. I work as a programmer -- My job is making bits move the way my employer wants them to move. I get paid hundreds upon hundreds of real dollars to write programs, which are stored as bits on a machine somewhere!
Demented and sad. It's only a computer game, for fuck's sake! Why don't you spend your money on something which will enrich your lives instead of keeping you stuck in front of a computer screen all the livelong day!
"Information wants to be paid"
If someone is stupid enough to pay for it, then I say go for it :)
:)
Sure, there's people who whine about fairness etc, but at least the positions are acheived fairly to start with - plus, powerful positions are more likely to be unstable once a poor player takes over.
my two cents worth
Nevrar
You're right; I don't play Diablo II. I played the demo and was sufficiently turned off that I didn't even try the full version.
You don't talk about how a game plays if you've only played the demo. Honestly, I would say you shouldn't talk about how Diablo 2: LOD *works* unless you've gotten characters to level 70+. Pre-LOD I would have said 50+, but you can get to that point now without ever leaving normal difficulty. You're simply not going to understand the overall picture without having invested enough time into the game to do so, or had someone who *has* invested that much time distill down the relevant points for you.
But the argument that you present here isn't an argument in favor of buying those neato magic toys to leapfrog over the lower levels. Instead, you've presented an argument to avoid Diablo II entirely.
No, the main argument I was presenting was that you shouldn't classify a huge group of people as "lamers" because they enjoy things that you don't.
The reason that your second scenario is more fun is because there's challenge. It's not that you're playing at a higher level. Your first scenario has no challenge. What possible source of enjoyment could that have?
Simply because something isn't challenging doesn't mean it provides no enjoyment. It does not logically hold, nor is it backed up by any facts.
A properly designed game maintains the same level of challenge regardless of a player's level. Different level characters merely encounter different types of situations. But relative to the characters' own skills, the challenge is the same. Any game that falls short of that is faulty.
That would make EverQuest faulty, right? The game is ridiculously easy at the low levels, and insanely hard in the end game. Unless you're going to tell me that 70 person raids of 60th (or near 60) level characters to kill one mob is the same level of challenge that a 1st level character has trying to kill things?
And I'm doubtful that a "properly designed game" would have the same challenge level regardless of a player's experience level or position in the game. I'm having trouble thinking of a game that follows such a challenge curve, every game I can think of starts off easy to allow you to become accustomed to the game environment and typically pushes all of your skills to the utmost during the endgame (while still remaining beatable).
Then again, I'm not a game designer, so I really shouldn't be commenting too much on what a "properly designed game" is, since I don't know that much about it. Imagine that, refraining from commenting on something I don't know much about.
~Moller
The diminishing returns formula is not posted on that site, but basically diminishing returns kick in bigtime for unique items around 200% increased MF, kick in later for set items and even later for rare items. If you're wearing items that give you a 400% increased chance to find a magical item, you only get like, a 220-230% increased chance of getting a unique.
:(
It is true they implemented a diminishing returns formula, but at the same time they improved the drops for a lot of monsters, and if you know where to look it evens out in the end. My character with an MF (Magic find increase) of 450 generally has to play about 10-15 minutes before finding at least one item worth selling on eBay. Sadly I no longer have the time to play 24/7
/Smuffe
I haven't seen that, I must be in the wrong areas. Or I have colossally bad luck ;-)
But yea, that explains why the economy suddenly went to hell over the past week. A huge influx of new, powerful items with no increase in the amount of currency. That easily makes the currency unit skyrocket in value, or makes everything else drop drastically in value. Probably mostly the value of everything else dropping, since the rate of SOJ's coming into the game since the expansion came out has been effectively constant (at a rate relatively tiny to the previous rate).
~Moller
There has been several issues about bnet hacking. I have no information about the successful ones (duh!) but at least the script kiddies are hard at work. The most common variant is to log on, create an account that could possibly be interpreted as an official Blizzard account and then shout in every channel that all accounts are going to be backuped and you have to whisper youre username and paasword to me, right now please, or your character will be removed. This has died down a bit now, but for a while different people tried it at least once every 5 minutes :D
/Smuffe
Since Telekinesis is the only way for the sorceress to grab dropped items in a multiplayer game with other players competing for the drops, she has gone from "uber" (grabbing every item via telekinesis before other players can pick them up) to nothingness. Now she has to walk over to the item and click on them, which is nearly impossible to do - the sorceress is the "stand back and fire spells" character, while most of the other ones are "walk up to the monster and clobber it" characters. And when the monster dies, the items drop where it falls down. Now guess who will be first to grab the items, considering the egoistical "me first" behaviour of most gamers ...
This is why most of the hardcore treasure hunters don't look for loot in MP games. They make password games (or limit the # of people in a game to 1) and do repeated Mephisto/High Council/Baal runs on Nightmare or Hell. So you don't have the inflated hit points from multiple people in the game and Boss drops are not affected by the number of people in the game.
Besides, the problem you described also applies to bowazons and necros. None of them are close enough to the action to pick up the drops before the tanks. Sorcs have an advantage over zons and necros because they can teleport in...but in the end it's still impractical to treasure-hunt in games with other people.
Unless you're lucky enough to play with people you know and trust. If you are, I envy you.
~Moller
I can see where your AD&D analogy is coming from, but it's flawed on certain levels. In a pen and paper RPG, player characters have a far greater range of options than they do in a hack-and-slash exercise like Diablo. There's no way to really avoid battle in most CRPGs, for one thing. A puny first-level mage with the gift of the gab might be able to con a tribe of goblins into believing him to be more powerful than Gandalf on crack, thus bypassing them with no combat. In Diablo, that same mage's only option is to do battle, which he is woefully unprepared for unless he loads up on items, via eBay if need be.
Diablo's more like Quake than it is like AD&D. I can't blame people for wanting the big guns if the entire game revolves around killing things.
'nuff said.
A new game, shattered galaxy, came out a while back. I pre-ordered 2 copies, and got 2 of the "Special bonus" cards that lets you buy a special unit in the game. So I did what any red-blooded geek would do... put it on ebay. Last I checked this card I got for free, that only give you the ability to buy a special unit, was up to $51!
e m& item=1635716579
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt
"A fool and his money are soon parted" I don't know who said it originally, but it fits here nicely.
yeah, I play diablo II, but the only trading I do for items is in a multiplayer game with the other characters for "in-game" money (ie. not real money). I've never understood bidding real cash for items in a computer game.
I've camped that spawn for 35 hours, and not gotten the item in question. If I really wanted it, a hundred bucks sounds like a bargain.
-Zaphod
Will trade for Windforce :)
I am an avid Diablo 2 player. Many of the items going for any amount of serious money are very hard to find. It literally takes hundreds of hours of gameplay to complete an elite/exceptional set of items in the traditional manner. These items require not only a high character level to even have a chance to find them, but a very low chance of actually finding the items. Tal Rasha's Wrappings, an elite/exceptional set, goes consistently for over $150 on eBay.
Trading items can consume a lot of time, too. One may find a unique or exceptional/elite set item, but it may be one from a set you don't care about.
Buying these items is the quickest, surest way of getting them; this is a simple case of immediate gratification. Many people who want to enjoy the game, do not have the time it takes to invest to get the set items that they would like. This game is a hobby to them, and some people have items that they want.
And as far as the banker who says he earned $25,000 off Diablo 2 items goes - well, he probably deserved it, because it must have taken many, many hours of his time. My advice - don't quit your day job, unless of course, you are 14 and work in fast food.
I don't understand why someone would pay for 40 SOJS (Stone of Jordan, a ring which has become a form of currency among D2 players). If someone has 40 SOJs, it makes me suspicious that at least some of them are duped items made by hackers. At the next update, the duped items will most likely disappear.
It's a guilty pleasure, but I do like the diablos. As has been noted before, it is rogue on steroids, and about 20 (19?18? yes, that many) I used to love playing rogue on the vax running BSD.
At any rate, I played the expansion pack through all three difficulty levels, and on the very last monster I got a truly uber sword. Sold it yesterday for $185. It is so absurd, I just had to do it.
Oh yeah, back to the point. If you look, you'll see that the prices for items are going down, down, down. That is, with the exception of the v1.08 items that were nerfed with the 1.09 patch; some of those actually went up.
I think the D2 market for the higher priced items is pretty much saturated. The expansion pack has been out long enough that given the literally millions of games that have been played, there are only more and more of these uber items being traded around. At this point, almost everything is down to a few dollars, with a few hitting $15-20. A little bit further, and it will revert to the former currency of SOJs (Stones of Jordan,
which became the medium of exchange.)
go OT enough ;-)
The main thing is that bosses (like Mephisto/High Council/Baal) have the same drops in a 1 person game as they do in an 8 person game. You lose drops on the way there with fewer people in the game, but with the High Council it's not a huge issues, nor is it that much of an issue with Mephisto (since it's so easy to get to both of them).
But you're right, repeated runs of say, the Bloody Foothills looking for items is FAR more profitable in an 8 person game than in a 1 person game, but doing Mephisto runs or high Council runs are better in a 1 person game because you can go faster since the bosses have fewer hit points.
~Moller