I am interested in seeing the GUI argument end, as I've just read all of the postings in it and didn't learn much during those several hours.
That's what happens when you make up your mind before you even start the conversation. It's common in people who think they're smarter then everyone else and believe they know what's best.
But the most ludicrous aspect of the Fedora project is that with Fedora, Red Hat seeks to achieve what Debian did long ago.
Fedora is a fellow Linux distribution, worked on by people like you and me, hackers with ideas. There's no reason to call them ludicrous. It's rude and uncalled for.
The goals of UserLinux are compatible with Debian's Social Contract, which I created.
I'm starting to get numb to you tooting your own horn. Your achievements are impressive, but they're soured by all your boasting. Yeah, yeah.. you're great... blah blah blah
Mandrake sent an inquiry and we don't yet know how they'd fit..... There are a number of Debian-derivative distributions that are naturals for this project.
This is interesting, as you're basing merit on whether or not a distro is Debian based. The initial mention of Mandrake could possibly have been from a corporate standpoint, but it's followed allmost immediately by the Debian reference, which assumes their worth simple because of their distro heritage. Clearly, being a Linux advocate/hacker isn't good enough unless you're a Debian advocate/hacker. This attitude is given more weight by the following line.
There have been suggestions regarding Linux platforms other than Red Hat and Debian, which I have classified as partisan.
Considering the previous, I guess this is no suprise.
You've got good goals Bruce. I don't think you'll find an arguement concerning you're overall idea. But you've got to stop being so self-centered and treat your fellow community with a little more respect, else you'll be dancing alone with your ego. Even if you do help to construct "billion dollar contracts", money can't buy you love, happiness, or my respect.
Whatever my opinion of Mr. Perens was before, it is now solidly based on his consistant trend to view whether or not a decision is profitable, and to to-quickly judge something for its monitary value. He has displayed an attitude and series of actions that I cannot accept as best intentions for the community, but only for his personal agenda.
Hmm.. I just screened my copy of Shaolin Soccer for a bunch of friends at a party this weekend. It must have played at least 4 times in a row. I invite you to ask anyone that was there exactly how many times they "break into song and dance periodically for reasons unknown". One of the lead characters sings a brief serenade, which would only classify this movie as "musical-like" as much as any other movie that has anyone singing for longer then 3 seconds. Also, it's not "about a bunch of losers who use magic powers to win local soccer matches". It's a group of brothers who studied kung-fu as children and now live in modern society, one brother having the dream of finding an effective way to teach other the wonders of kung-fu. Did you pay attention when you watched this movie? You sound like a highschool jock describing opera.
Hero is perhaps visually similar to Crouching Tiger becuase they share the same producer, Bill Kong. Tony Ching Siu Tung even directed the action, the same action director from Shaolin Soccer. And saying "the entire movie consists solely of amazing battle scenes" is crap. The action is incredible, but it stands second to the communication of personal relationships between the characters. It's a shame you weren't able to emotionaly relate to the characters at all, else it would have been an even better experience.
No, Sony boasted that the PS2 was capable of spitting 75 Million Polygons / second. Now they boast that the PSP is capable of 33 MPS. Considering that the max resolution of the PSP is 480*272, I'd say the PS2 is roughly 3 times more powerful than the upcoming PSP.
Maybe their intention was to state the PSP is proportionaly comparrable to the PS2. *Shrug*. Don't let pure numbers guide you. You can't make a direct comparison between G5 and P4 processors running at the same clock because they use different architecture. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, only exploring another avenue of thought. Also, this is a handheld device with a smaller screen. There aren't as many reasons to push pollys on a screen that small.
It's also interesting to note that they compare the cost of this UMD format to ROMs instead of mini-dvds (which would be considerably cheaper to manufacture).
They compare them to roms because that's what are on the market now. The've chosen a format and are comparing it to current practices, not to another format they could have chosen that isn't in wide use.
Bring up your favorite distro. The important bits of immediate concern are Squid and syslog. Prevent direct access to the net from the client machines and force them to go through the proxy using a GPO in ActiveDirectory. Configure Squid how you like, but best to at least add the capability to block certain sites and prevent certain file types from being downloaded: acl hosts_deny dstdomain "/etc/squid/blocked_sites.txt" acl filetypes urlpath_regex -i "/etc/squid/filetypes.txt"
List the domains to block in/etc/squid/blocked_sites.txt. List the file extentions to block in/etc/squid/filetypes.txt in regex fashion (something like \.(exe)$ to block.exe files). Not a complete fix, but a good quick way to safeguard web access.
Now run over to sourceforge and grab ntsyslog. This handy tool exports your Event Viewer logs to a remote syslog server. It installs as a service and it's a cinche to setup. Stick is on your domain controller. On your Linux box add a line like the following to syslog.conf (for sysklogd): user.alert -/var/log/domain.log
By default, ntsyslog uses user.alert, but you can change that to whatever you like. Also make sure your syslog is configured to receive messages from remote clients. Now, in your default domain policy on the domain controller configure it to audit logon events as well as account logon events, successes and failures for both.
Now you've got web access managed by a central proxy with full logging and minimal blocking abilities and all logon success/failures being reported to Event Viewer on the DC and forwarded to the syslog. If you want to see who is logged into a machine at any given time you can either quickly parse the logs or use something like NetUsers or LoggedOn.
Popular local opinion says that you're likely to have more problems/attacks with/against your Windows server. Having your Event Viewer messages forwarded means you can diagnose problems in the event something happanes to that server. You'll probably want to at least MRTG the Linux box to get an idea of bandwidth usage too. Then enjoy whippin' up your own set of shell scripts to play with your logs (hint: real-time monitoring)!
But in two sentences it appears you've demonstrated that your zealotry for Debain can outweigh your vision for what could be best for the community.
s/Debian/yourself/
I'm not sure if I should be happy or upset that you're helping to prove that point. I'd like to thank the AC for his contribution to this thread which hit it on the mark and was about as good of a re-reply that I could have made. The heart of the post was not about you, Bruce Perens the individual, it was about you, the individual fronting the UserLinux project who also happens to be Bruce Perens. It's notable that your reaction was to focus in on yourself instead of the greater project. What really gets me is that you're a respectable and intelligent person, and if you're having trouble understanding that viewpoint then there is a lot to worry about.
If I were the one who stood up and announced I was developing a new Linux initiative with the same forward looking and positive goals as UserLinux nobody would listen to me (well, my mother maybe, but she's obligated, no?). But being who you are you've got street cred which nobody can deny you. This needs no explanation though, as you were quick to beat your own chest and list your accomplishments (which I promptly skipped over) in your reply. It seems the longer the list of accomplishments, the greater the lack of modesty.
You have so far given many reasons to respect your large scale, early work with Debian, and in turn have earned respect for yourself. But my original point still stands that there is so far no reason to hold UserLinux itself in higher regard then any other Debian based distrobution or even Fedora as the thread originator suggested. Frankly, your curriculum vitae is moot in the sense that it is yours and not that of UserLinux, a so far nonexistant, hypothetical product. It gives you the community standing and experience needed to lead the project, but those are still descriptors of singular you, not future efforts.
You have become a strange loop in your efforts in that: Bruce Perens does not need to prove himself, UserLinux itself does need to prove itself, currently UserLinux is Bruce Perens, Bruce Perens needs to prove himself.
My father is an axe murderer. As his son, I am based on my father. I would like the chance to be my own person, and don't enjoy meeting people who hold me in a certain light because of my fathers image.
I base all my financial decisions on what I believe Warren Buffet would do. Since my decisions are based on his, I should expect to soon gain millions of dollars.
You cannot hype UserLinux simply because it's based on Debian. While there's weight in where you came from, you have no choice but to prove yourself. We've all had plenty of time to become familiar with Debian. We've all had plenty of time to become familiar with the horde of other distributions based on Debian. We know what's been done and what's possible.
You could have made mention that you believe you have strong potential because you're based off a distribution with a longstanding reputation. But in two sentences it appears you've demonstrated that your zealotry for Debain can outweigh your vision for what could be best for the community.
Debian exists. UserLinux does not. At this moment anything and everything related to Debian has nothing to do with UserLinux until you stop writing theory and start producing product.
...all Gentoo users deserve information about how this box, running Gentoo, got cracked remotely.
I'm not argueing one side or the other, just mentioning this for the sake of completeness. The post makes no specific mention that the compromised machine was itself running Gentoo. It may have been, it just wasn't stated one way or the other. And there's the possibility that the rootkit was installed locally and taken advantage of remotely.
I suggest immediate full-disclosure of the whole incident.
Your feelings about how devs handle security issues are yours to raise, and potentially rightly so. But take another look at the posting. It states that the purpose of the box was not solely to act as an rsync server. It's a donated service by a sponser that also hosts other services on that same machine. After reading that post it's hard to even know for sure if it was rooted because it was a Gentoo rsync server or for some other unrelated reason:
The box provides other services not related to Gentoo Linux as well and the sponsor has requested that we not publicly identify the box at this time. Because the Gentoo part of this box appears to be unaffected by this exploit, we are currently honoring the sponsor's request. That said, if at any point, we determine that any file in the portage tree was inappropriately modified, we will release full details about the compromised server.
We don't like "security through obscurity"
I don't see any unneeded obscurity surrounding this. It sounds more like you're just unhappy with whatever happened in IRC today.
Re:So, what is the expected data speed limit?
on
DVD-Rs go 8x
·
· Score: 1
Base speeds: 1x CD speed = 150 KB/sec. 1x DVD speed = 1350 KB/sec.
Current speeds: 52x CD speed = 7800 KB/sec. 8x DVD speed = 10800 KB/sec.
If 8x DVD thruput is possible at the speed above then you might think that thruput would be possible with CDRs as well. After all, 10800/150 = 72. Why aren't there 72x CD-Rs? DVDs use a finer focused laser, packing the information tighter on the disc and requiring lower rpms. For a CD-R to be written at a comparable speed (thruput) it must run at a faster speed (rpm).
Just observing.
Re:Always "a couple years away"
on
Linux in 2004?
·
· Score: 1
"...to program my PBX at home, and most of the time with Linux to simulate certain customer configurations and experiment with RAID and cluster setups."
I guess we can stop looking for the perfect example of the average user.
Opinion and choice are not the problem. The problems begin when people hold opinions so militantly they put more focus into enforcing the idea of their opinion then the idea behind their opinion.
Why do you fear law abiding citizens with guns? It seems that you are the paranoid one.
To me, remarks like these show that you're not the type that is interested in an honest resolution, but rather only interested in beating the oposition into agreement or submission. Perhaps by coincidence, many pro-gun activists have a similar attitude. This might be a good starting point in asking why anti-gun activists could feel a little uneasy.
OK. So you watched Bowling for Columbine and fell for the editing. Think for yourself and quite blindly believing a single source. I'm no fan of the NRA, or guns in general, but there are a few things you need to learn.
"If you need that much CPU power, you presumably have some compute-intensive app to run with it."
Says who? Now, if you were benchmarking something like an AS/400 with Quake III then you would have a point. But the A64 is introduced as a desktop proc, not a server or dedicated workstation proc. As such, it seems only natural to bench it with common, every-day applications. This is the next generation of desktop CPUs and it is benefitial to seem them compared to current hardware.
When the Athlons and P4s came out nobody asked why they were being benched with regular applications. Just because it's 64-bit and nicely fast doesn't mean it's not just another desktop proc.
Slashdot Mirror
Some quick quotes:
.... There are a number of Debian-derivative distributions that are naturals for this project.
I am interested in seeing the GUI argument end, as I've just read all of the postings in it and didn't learn much during those several hours.
That's what happens when you make up your mind before you even start the conversation. It's common in people who think they're smarter then everyone else and believe they know what's best.
But the most ludicrous aspect of the Fedora project is that with Fedora, Red Hat seeks to achieve what Debian did long ago.
Fedora is a fellow Linux distribution, worked on by people like you and me, hackers with ideas. There's no reason to call them ludicrous. It's rude and uncalled for.
The goals of UserLinux are compatible with Debian's Social Contract, which I created.
I'm starting to get numb to you tooting your own horn. Your achievements are impressive, but they're soured by all your boasting. Yeah, yeah.. you're great... blah blah blah
Mandrake sent an inquiry and we don't yet know how they'd fit.
This is interesting, as you're basing merit on whether or not a distro is Debian based. The initial mention of Mandrake could possibly have been from a corporate standpoint, but it's followed allmost immediately by the Debian reference, which assumes their worth simple because of their distro heritage. Clearly, being a Linux advocate/hacker isn't good enough unless you're a Debian advocate/hacker. This attitude is given more weight by the following line.
There have been suggestions regarding Linux platforms other than Red Hat and Debian, which I have classified as partisan.
Considering the previous, I guess this is no suprise.
You've got good goals Bruce. I don't think you'll find an arguement concerning you're overall idea. But you've got to stop being so self-centered and treat your fellow community with a little more respect, else you'll be dancing alone with your ego. Even if you do help to construct "billion dollar contracts", money can't buy you love, happiness, or my respect.
financial interest... consulting customer... billion-dollar project...
Whatever my opinion of Mr. Perens was before, it is now solidly based on his consistant trend to view whether or not a decision is profitable, and to to-quickly judge something for its monitary value. He has displayed an attitude and series of actions that I cannot accept as best intentions for the community, but only for his personal agenda.
Tried these?
cpufreqd
autospeedstep
cpudyn
I tried an alpha version quite a while ago. In a word, it sucked.
Hmm.. I just screened my copy of Shaolin Soccer for a bunch of friends at a party this weekend. It must have played at least 4 times in a row. I invite you to ask anyone that was there exactly how many times they "break into song and dance periodically for reasons unknown". One of the lead characters sings a brief serenade, which would only classify this movie as "musical-like" as much as any other movie that has anyone singing for longer then 3 seconds. Also, it's not "about a bunch of losers who use magic powers to win local soccer matches". It's a group of brothers who studied kung-fu as children and now live in modern society, one brother having the dream of finding an effective way to teach other the wonders of kung-fu. Did you pay attention when you watched this movie? You sound like a highschool jock describing opera.
Hero is perhaps visually similar to Crouching Tiger becuase they share the same producer, Bill Kong. Tony Ching Siu Tung even directed the action, the same action director from Shaolin Soccer. And saying "the entire movie consists solely of amazing battle scenes" is crap. The action is incredible, but it stands second to the communication of personal relationships between the characters. It's a shame you weren't able to emotionaly relate to the characters at all, else it would have been an even better experience.
Please:
Check out the product before asking so many damn questions. You haven't even been to the website or you wouldn't be asking some of these.
No, Sony boasted that the PS2 was capable of spitting 75 Million Polygons / second. Now they boast that the PSP is capable of 33 MPS. Considering that the max resolution of the PSP is 480*272, I'd say the PS2 is roughly 3 times more powerful than the upcoming PSP.
Maybe their intention was to state the PSP is proportionaly comparrable to the PS2. *Shrug*. Don't let pure numbers guide you. You can't make a direct comparison between G5 and P4 processors running at the same clock because they use different architecture. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, only exploring another avenue of thought. Also, this is a handheld device with a smaller screen. There aren't as many reasons to push pollys on a screen that small.
It's also interesting to note that they compare the cost of this UMD format to ROMs instead of mini-dvds (which would be considerably cheaper to manufacture).
They compare them to roms because that's what are on the market now. The've chosen a format and are comparing it to current practices, not to another format they could have chosen that isn't in wide use.
http://www.globalgadgetuk.com/detector.htm
No, seriously...
/etc/squid/blocked_sites.txt. List the file extentions to block in /etc/squid/filetypes.txt in regex fashion (something like \.(exe)$ to block .exe files). Not a complete fix, but a good quick way to safeguard web access.
Bring up your favorite distro. The important bits of immediate concern are Squid and syslog. Prevent direct access to the net from the client machines and force them to go through the proxy using a GPO in ActiveDirectory. Configure Squid how you like, but best to at least add the capability to block certain sites and prevent certain file types from being downloaded:
acl hosts_deny dstdomain "/etc/squid/blocked_sites.txt"
acl filetypes urlpath_regex -i "/etc/squid/filetypes.txt"
http_access deny filetypes
http_access deny hosts_deny
List the domains to block in
Now run over to sourceforge and grab ntsyslog. This handy tool exports your Event Viewer logs to a remote syslog server. It installs as a service and it's a cinche to setup. Stick is on your domain controller. On your Linux box add a line like the following to syslog.conf (for sysklogd):
user.alert -/var/log/domain.log
By default, ntsyslog uses user.alert, but you can change that to whatever you like. Also make sure your syslog is configured to receive messages from remote clients. Now, in your default domain policy on the domain controller configure it to audit logon events as well as account logon events, successes and failures for both.
Now you've got web access managed by a central proxy with full logging and minimal blocking abilities and all logon success/failures being reported to Event Viewer on the DC and forwarded to the syslog. If you want to see who is logged into a machine at any given time you can either quickly parse the logs or use something like NetUsers or LoggedOn.
Popular local opinion says that you're likely to have more problems/attacks with/against your Windows server. Having your Event Viewer messages forwarded means you can diagnose problems in the event something happanes to that server. You'll probably want to at least MRTG the Linux box to get an idea of bandwidth usage too. Then enjoy whippin' up your own set of shell scripts to play with your logs (hint: real-time monitoring)!
Horrible, but to quote myself:
But in two sentences it appears you've demonstrated that your zealotry for Debain can outweigh your vision for what could be best for the community.
s/Debian/yourself/
I'm not sure if I should be happy or upset that you're helping to prove that point. I'd like to thank the AC for his contribution to this thread which hit it on the mark and was about as good of a re-reply that I could have made. The heart of the post was not about you, Bruce Perens the individual, it was about you, the individual fronting the UserLinux project who also happens to be Bruce Perens. It's notable that your reaction was to focus in on yourself instead of the greater project. What really gets me is that you're a respectable and intelligent person, and if you're having trouble understanding that viewpoint then there is a lot to worry about.
If I were the one who stood up and announced I was developing a new Linux initiative with the same forward looking and positive goals as UserLinux nobody would listen to me (well, my mother maybe, but she's obligated, no?). But being who you are you've got street cred which nobody can deny you. This needs no explanation though, as you were quick to beat your own chest and list your accomplishments (which I promptly skipped over) in your reply. It seems the longer the list of accomplishments, the greater the lack of modesty.
You have so far given many reasons to respect your large scale, early work with Debian, and in turn have earned respect for yourself. But my original point still stands that there is so far no reason to hold UserLinux itself in higher regard then any other Debian based distrobution or even Fedora as the thread originator suggested. Frankly, your curriculum vitae is moot in the sense that it is yours and not that of UserLinux, a so far nonexistant, hypothetical product. It gives you the community standing and experience needed to lead the project, but those are still descriptors of singular you, not future efforts.
You have become a strange loop in your efforts in that: Bruce Perens does not need to prove himself, UserLinux itself does need to prove itself, currently UserLinux is Bruce Perens, Bruce Perens needs to prove himself.
You cannot hype UserLinux simply because it's based on Debian. While there's weight in where you came from, you have no choice but to prove yourself. We've all had plenty of time to become familiar with Debian. We've all had plenty of time to become familiar with the horde of other distributions based on Debian. We know what's been done and what's possible.
You could have made mention that you believe you have strong potential because you're based off a distribution with a longstanding reputation. But in two sentences it appears you've demonstrated that your zealotry for Debain can outweigh your vision for what could be best for the community.
Debian exists. UserLinux does not. At this moment anything and everything related to Debian has nothing to do with UserLinux until you stop writing theory and start producing product.
...all Gentoo users deserve information about how this box, running Gentoo, got cracked remotely.
I'm not argueing one side or the other, just mentioning this for the sake of completeness. The post makes no specific mention that the compromised machine was itself running Gentoo. It may have been, it just wasn't stated one way or the other. And there's the possibility that the rootkit was installed locally and taken advantage of remotely.
I suggest immediate full-disclosure of the whole incident.
Your feelings about how devs handle security issues are yours to raise, and potentially rightly so. But take another look at the posting. It states that the purpose of the box was not solely to act as an rsync server. It's a donated service by a sponser that also hosts other services on that same machine. After reading that post it's hard to even know for sure if it was rooted because it was a Gentoo rsync server or for some other unrelated reason:
The box provides other services not related to Gentoo Linux as well and the sponsor has requested that we not publicly identify the box at this time. Because the Gentoo part of this box appears to be unaffected by this exploit, we are currently honoring the sponsor's request. That said, if at any point, we determine that any file in the portage tree was inappropriately modified, we will release full details about the compromised server.
We don't like "security through obscurity"
I don't see any unneeded obscurity surrounding this. It sounds more like you're just unhappy with whatever happened in IRC today.
grep -Hirn "shit" /usr/src/linux/*
Base speeds:
1x CD speed = 150 KB/sec.
1x DVD speed = 1350 KB/sec.
Current speeds:
52x CD speed = 7800 KB/sec.
8x DVD speed = 10800 KB/sec.
If 8x DVD thruput is possible at the speed above then you might think that thruput would be possible with CDRs as well. After all, 10800/150 = 72. Why aren't there 72x CD-Rs? DVDs use a finer focused laser, packing the information tighter on the disc and requiring lower rpms. For a CD-R to be written at a comparable speed (thruput) it must run at a faster speed (rpm).
Just observing.
"...to program my PBX at home, and most of the time with Linux to simulate certain customer configurations and experiment with RAID and cluster setups."
I guess we can stop looking for the perfect example of the average user.
Ximian Connector: $69 personal use license.
http://www.ximian.com/products/connector/
Of course, I'll sell you one for $100 and pocket the $31 if it makes you feel better.
Sounds like you want DFS with shadowcopy. These are only buzzwords I hear on the T.V. sound I could be horribly wrong.
He may not mean Gentoo, but I think at the moment it's the best example of what he just described.
Opinion and choice are not the problem. The problems begin when people hold opinions so militantly they put more focus into enforcing the idea of their opinion then the idea behind their opinion.
Why do you fear law abiding citizens with guns? It seems that you are the paranoid one.
To me, remarks like these show that you're not the type that is interested in an honest resolution, but rather only interested in beating the oposition into agreement or submission. Perhaps by coincidence, many pro-gun activists have a similar attitude. This might be a good starting point in asking why anti-gun activists could feel a little uneasy.
OK. So you watched Bowling for Columbine and fell for the editing. Think for yourself and quite blindly believing a single source. I'm no fan of the NRA, or guns in general, but there are a few things you need to learn.
I AM different, you insensitive clod! Just like everyone else.
I hope you're looking at some fast lines to put between those boxen. Even at 100Mb/sec, doing RAID across a LAN could get slow.
"If you need that much CPU power, you presumably have some compute-intensive app to run with it."
Says who? Now, if you were benchmarking something like an AS/400 with Quake III then you would have a point. But the A64 is introduced as a desktop proc, not a server or dedicated workstation proc. As such, it seems only natural to bench it with common, every-day applications. This is the next generation of desktop CPUs and it is benefitial to seem them compared to current hardware.
When the Athlons and P4s came out nobody asked why they were being benched with regular applications. Just because it's 64-bit and nicely fast doesn't mean it's not just another desktop proc.
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Ahh, the joys of the useless, single choice confirm box.
How exactly does this solve anything?