.. don't take it personally but it's incredible how many people are getting brainwashed with with this credo . It's a standard printout of the american propaganda and really it's what I would prefer to believe too. (If it would be that simple and justified though)
The real problem is that there exists something like international law and UN and many counties are trying to work together and tradeofss are being made on a daily basis. The US is already for years a part of it but isn't a real democratic player since it abuses veto all the time to promote personal interrests (and much more than the other few countries having the same right). Now while veto isn't realy democratic it has been tollerated for decenia in order "to keep the peace" (more along the line like : if you play by the rules we're maybe willing to bend them a little bit towards your comfort).
What the US however just did with much arrogance was ignoring even this and the rest of the world and doing whatever fitted them best first.
Now the real danger is not comming for a small country like iraq having limited resources. The danger is comming from a big countries like america willing to abuse it's superior military power in order to gain more economical control over other countries (e.g. control over limited resourse like oil) and thus endagering world peace.
It's not because your an important player you have the right to do anything you like. Even If you have one of worlds most powerful weapons : media control
the phrasing is maybe not excellent but it surely touches the core of the problem.
The problem is indeed not the the workers and is for sure not only an american problem.
I work in a huge R&D department in europe and the last year I 've seen local workers being fired on a daily basis and being replaced by indian people (sometimes by multiple people iso 1 guy)
The real problem is indeed the CEO's which are almost always LOCAL people. In this bad economical climat they do whatever it takes in order to save THEIR jobs.
At this point, all of them ar going for cost reduction. Hiring foreign people is one method:
- no huge taxes being paid to the local government (less financial obligations)
- no complaining when they are asked to work more 12 hour's a day (less social obligations)
As a short term vision this makes sense. However most of them fail to see that this is a disaster in the long run for the compagny itself and mostly their jobs. Most foreigners won't stay for years and the compagny wil have to repay each time over the money they lose when one leaves with his collected knowledge and experience. After a while the compagny is an empty can with no in-house knowledge.
Fireing expensive, short term thinking CEO's and replacing them by less expesive ones would be a good thing but wouldn't realy matter.
I'm afraid we'll just have to wait until economics go that bad so that long term vision pays of better than short term stock market.
popups are effectivly requested and downloaded by you're browser and you allow you're browser to retrieve/execute them. Any decent browser alows you to turn them off. In other words you are explicitly allowing you're browser to let them pop-up.
>That's not surprising since the guys at those conventions are potential world-class criminals.
No, many of them are just a bunch trying to be 31337 , a minority are real techies which are to smart or to well payed to act real foolish. If you have any 'world-class' you don't showup there and try to show off.
>For about 3 years afterwards I would hear odd clicks on a lot of my phonecalls and I had all of my nuclear-related grant proposals denied on the basis of "security".
guess you live in the land of the free...:-( FWIW in the last 15 years, listening in on your phonecalls is 'click-less' or the tapping was done in a stone-age fashion
Duplicating the MAC on the network would for sure be causing troubles in the network and would give you just troubles and cause a witch-hunt for your box. The most stealhthy thing to do would be opening your interface in rawmode and do some sniff and packet spoofing.
It just depends on what you want to do with your box X. First you snif on the local lan for a machine A connecting to the outside world.
If you just want to get info to the outside you could spoof the packets srcip/mac as if they were comming from that machine A. Your machine B on the outside just takes these in and interpretes them without replying.
If you then want to control the box from outside hide your remote commands in packets which normaly would be discareded or considered harmless by machine A and send them to machine A. (icmp/udp or outdated tcp packets)Your box could sniff them on the way and interprete them like you intended.
Needless to say that machine B on the outside should not be your machine at home but rather a rooted box which relays the packets for you:-)
>Junk email or snail mail doesn't cost you anything..
what about business time ? sorting through a pile of junkmail each day would cost you quite some bit. Multiply this with the number of employees in your compagny (they probably all get the same junk) and i bet the 1junkfax would have cost you much less.
>So I doubt they'd ever make spammers pay you for receiving that
I doubt this too but more because it would almost requiere a law which makes all unwanted addvertising illegal. Since advertising is a major revenue for many compagnies (like tv,magazines,..) they'' never pass that one:-(
> XSun is based on the X-server from X11 and thus contains all problems/bugs that one has.
you forget about all the problems you introduce by addapting the original code:-)
> So if something is an open standard, it sucks by definition?
eeuhm that's not what the parent claimed. He just said that the hardware provided by sun ain't better than those from other manifactures because the hardware is standarized.
> My main interest in Sun and Solaris is the nice technology Linux still cannot compare to. From the few things I've heared from the upcoming Solaris 9, it's going to be great...(examples)...
eeuh and now you state solaris is superior because all of the things that will be in there in the next release.....
really if you try to make a point give some decent examples.
..Whatever job you do, one of the greatest abillities you can have is that you can admit where you 're missing the needed knowledge. That way people will teach you the most and you can still show your master capabillities when they enter your terretory.
For tech people it's maybe a bit easier to conform to this because they are more confronted with hard facts. Many managers however try to get away by bluffing to their superiors and colleges because they tend to get away with it.(many of them lack the nessecarry knowledge)
Ok, i'll bite:
allow me...
#1) Sun's support organization. It is second to none. period, end of story. You have a problem, they fix it. I had a failed disk earlier this week, the support rep's first response was to send a tech on site that day.
Let me guess, you have a multimilion contract and they had a newbey which could use some training:-)...
#2) When they boast about binary compatibility frSo, as you can see, there is more to the decision than just cost. In the world that i work in, time is money, and the hardware cost is a very small percentage of the TCO.om $1,000 to $10,000,000, they are not kidding. I can give the developers a low end box and know that the app will still work on a mid to high end box
eeuh, 2 posibilities here : a) you're talking hw, and i don't understand you at all. The only one which did care for downward campatibilit was INTEL (also only reason why it stayed popular) b) you're talking about software and then it's just stupid. Just recompiling you're app for newer hardware gives you a better performing app. Binary compatibility is just a stinky way to be able to hide theire source.
#3) It just works. I dont get the "what glib are you using", "is that rev XYZ of that nic?" or any of that other crap.
... eeuh do you ever actualy USE their stuff ? It doesn't work any better then any open source stuff I've seen up till know. You have a SUN-solve- account ? Even the most basic stuff doesn't work and you can beg for weeks to get somthing done in a decent way. "is that rev XYZ of that nic?" is exactly the crap that half of SUN's legal department will try to nail you with if you don't stop complaining fast enough
#4) the hardware seems to last forever and ever and ever. And sun supports the stuff for a long time. Every try and get dell to support a six year old box? yeah, good luck.
Right, but for SUN's 1x price I can get a a newer box each year.
#5) did i mention the support?
Euch you mean the part where you get forwarded from helpdesk to helpdesk and finaly get a ticketnumber saying you're in their problem database ???
#6) it was built to be managed from a serial port and live on a network from day 1. I love the fact that i can put all of my servers in a colo, walk out, and do the OS install from home. I know that PC's are now beginning to get to the point where you can hook a serial cable up and get them to boot from the net and do an os install. lets face it, there are whole books on how to use jumpstart in the sun environment and do 100% hands off installs. It just works, and it is fully supported.
Correct yourself here too.. you are talking about the UNIX way, not about the SUN way. The same can easily and much cheaper be achieved on PC hw with
a free unix like bsd or linux.
So, as you can see, there is more to the decision than just cost. In the world that i work in, time is money, and the hardware cost is a very small percentage of the TCO.
Please stop glorifying SUN, the only reason you need them is because they have an IT department with a legal department to back them up. (which is the key for most of their businesses) For the rest it's just a big corp not much diffrent from M$ : some brilliant guys and lot's of morron's acting important
"'m so tired of having to decide which featureset I want to use today. For C++ development I use Kdevelop, because...."
Basicly you're saying that any choice is confusing so it's better to give up the freedom of choice...
In the same lines your say you're using both because you prefer some features of each...
Seems like the problem is you can't make up your mind and blame it on the choice.
"The GNOME/KDE choice is annoying. Honestly I don't care which one goes away, I just wish one of them would."
The solution you then offer is throw away the choices and live with what's imposed
.
I'am sure you'll be the first one complaining about the fact they threw out the wrong one
...
go away troll
Your missing the point... The guy is telling you that unix is a giant toolbox. The tools are already there for decenia and allow you to do almost anything.
>Riiight, but can they read or write email?
...oh you are trolling, of course they can... it's text... it can even be read to you if you want too
>How about Gnome? How disability friendly is the >latest build of StarOffice? Mozilla?
Eeuh do you think any blind man would care how flashy StarOffice or Mozilla is ??? Lynx combind with with text2speech on the otherhand could make is day
>So fine, lets say that 1 in 25 computer users rely entirely on the CLI - lets so that 1 in 5 of those have a type of disability, and lets say that 1 in 10 of those are blind. I am sure that all six of them will be reassured that grep is braille compatible.
The point is that CLI is a much better interface and that GUI's just complicat things because of the need of sight en good motorics. Unix is just better equiped to redirect input from any device towards any application with standard tools. This also doesn't mean that the disabled needs to learn CLi. Any device input can easyly generate any CLI
which then does whathere is wanted. The power recides in the fact that the GUI & application are 2 different things an that you don't even need the GUI to get things done.
You can publish all the user posts but you're not obliged to publish those you don't want to. From that point web owners are not any diferent than normal publishers. All risk are avoided if you stick to the publishing part, since you only publish what you want too. Messing with people's post will nowhere be accepted. Deletion is not a problem since it's surely your right not to publish things you don't want. For the rest, your visitors will decide wether they feel you do an honnest job. If you'don't they won't come back:-)
That said, I do largely agree with you. As much as I dislike Microsoft and Win9x (and NT for that matter; not used 2k, ME or XP), it is nice to be able to walk into a shop and barely even have to worry about system requirements, let alone exact matching of OS and hardware.
Uhum You didn't buy a game for a long time since in that case you would know that for any game you buy you have to tripple check the hw requirements (Pentium2/3/4, Mhz, 3D Accel...) and software requirements (DirectX 5/6/7 win95/98 not win31...)
P.S.... don't worry about this glitch in you're thought's... you're not the only one. The MS marketing department spent billions in making people think this way...:-)
The problem isn't the locking but the environment.that the users are used too.
... really. In a decent configured unix environment you're used that everything is locked down. Developers have :
* their homedirs where they can mess with whatever they want,
* some cvs/clearcase to manage all their development stuff
* whatever tools they need will be available through network mounted dirs only handled by the IT department. (You still want this fancy tool you like ? No problem, IT-can install it and it will be availlable to all your co-developer on all machines.)
So I can't see why something simillar wouldn't work for a windows environment.You could consider installing also some less workrelated stuff on the network (which wouldn't realy harm. e.g. mp3players,...) Many people will actualy be pleased that they get all the stuff without having to mess around themselves.
If you 're looking for arguments against open source an alternative way to find them is looking for arguments in favour of patents (not only software patents) Many of the arguments will be reusable.
However I can't promise they will make more sense of course:-)
The Good : a new os project is still alive and kicking
The Bad : it emulates binaries, which ain't new and is just important for closed source stuff
The ugly : timotroll making lame remarks concerning licence violations without having a clue
At least kudoz to the guy(s) building SkyOS. Even if this OS doesn't suite your needs, they're not the ones doing nothing and complaining:
-- red.
1) don't tell anybody of the problem
2) If you must tell them, don't prove it
It wories me that some people in the security comunity already seem to accept that the prove should be hidden. I wonder how long it will take untill they think the facts should be hidden too.
Ok what the hell is going on ? I enter this url without a space between the o and c and used old/plain text mode. Verified it twice but it
reappears back each time... grrr . (so its proc04-reed.html at the end of the url for those who didn't notice the gap)
Slashdot Mirror
.. don't take it personally but it's incredible how many people are getting brainwashed with with this credo . It's a standard printout of the american propaganda and really it's what I would prefer to believe too. (If it would be that simple and justified though)
The real problem is that there exists something like international law and UN and many counties are trying to work together and tradeofss are being made on a daily basis. The US is already for years a part of it but isn't a real democratic player since it abuses veto all the time to promote personal interrests (and much more than the other few countries having the same right). Now while veto isn't realy democratic it has been tollerated for decenia in order "to keep the peace" (more along the line like : if you play by the rules we're maybe willing to bend them a little bit towards your comfort).
What the US however just did with much arrogance was ignoring even this and the rest of the world and doing whatever fitted them best first.
Now the real danger is not comming for a small country like iraq having limited resources. The danger is comming from a big countries like america willing to abuse it's superior military power in order to gain more economical control over other countries (e.g. control over limited resourse like oil) and thus endagering world peace.
It's not because your an important player you have the right to do anything you like. Even If you have one of worlds most powerful weapons : media control
the phrasing is maybe not excellent but it surely touches the core of the problem.
:
The problem is indeed not the the workers and is for sure not only an american problem.
I work in a huge R&D department in europe and the last year I 've seen local workers being fired on a daily basis and being replaced by indian people (sometimes by multiple people iso 1 guy)
The real problem is indeed the CEO's which are almost always LOCAL people. In this bad economical climat they do whatever it takes in order to save THEIR jobs.
At this point, all of them ar going for cost reduction. Hiring foreign people is one method
- no huge taxes being paid to the local government (less financial obligations)
- no complaining when they are asked to work more 12 hour's a day (less social obligations)
As a short term vision this makes sense. However most of them fail to see that this is a disaster in the long run for the compagny itself and mostly their jobs. Most foreigners won't stay for years and the compagny wil have to repay each time over the money they lose when one leaves with his collected knowledge and experience. After a while the compagny is an empty can with no in-house knowledge.
Fireing expensive, short term thinking CEO's and replacing them by less expesive ones would be a good thing but wouldn't realy matter.
I'm afraid we'll just have to wait until economics go that bad so that long term vision pays of better than short term stock market.
popups are effectivly requested and downloaded by you're browser and you allow you're browser to retrieve/execute them. Any decent browser alows you to turn them off. In other words you are explicitly allowing you're browser to let them pop-up.
red.
>That's not surprising since the guys at those conventions are potential world-class criminals.
... :-(
:-)
No, many of them are just a bunch trying to be 31337 , a minority are real techies which are to smart or to well payed to act real foolish. If you have any 'world-class' you don't showup there and try to show off.
>For about 3 years afterwards I would hear odd clicks on a lot of my phonecalls and I had all of my nuclear-related grant proposals denied on the basis of "security".
guess you live in the land of the free
FWIW in the last 15 years, listening in on your phonecalls is 'click-less' or the tapping was done in a stone-age fashion
hope you feel more at ease now
--red.
Duplicating the MAC on the network would for sure
.
:-)
be causing troubles in the network and would give you just troubles and cause a witch-hunt for your box. The most stealhthy thing to do would be opening your interface in rawmode and do some sniff and packet spoofing.
It just depends on what you want to do with your box X. First you snif on the local lan for a machine A connecting to the outside world
If you just want to get info to the outside you could spoof the packets srcip/mac as if they were comming from that machine A. Your machine B on the outside just takes these in and interpretes them without replying.
If you then want to control the box from outside hide your remote commands in packets which normaly would be discareded or considered harmless by machine A and send them to machine A. (icmp/udp or outdated tcp packets)Your box could sniff them on the way and interprete them like you intended.
Needless to say that machine B on the outside should not be your machine at home but rather
a rooted box which relays the packets for you
-- red.
>Junk email or snail mail doesn't cost you anything..
:-(
what about business time ? sorting through a pile of junkmail each day would cost you quite some bit. Multiply this with the number of employees in your compagny (they probably all get the same junk) and i bet the 1junkfax would have cost you much less.
>So I doubt they'd ever make spammers pay you for receiving that
I doubt this too but more because it would almost requiere a law which makes all unwanted addvertising illegal. Since advertising is a major revenue for many compagnies (like tv,magazines,..)
they'' never pass that one
but you sure don't make a decent argument....
:-)
...(examples)...
.....
> XSun is based on the X-server from X11 and thus contains all problems/bugs that one has.
you forget about all the problems you introduce by addapting the original code
> So if something is an open standard, it sucks by definition?
eeuhm that's not what the parent claimed. He just said that the hardware provided by sun ain't better than those from other manifactures because
the hardware is standarized.
> My main interest in Sun and Solaris is the nice technology Linux still cannot compare to. From the few things I've heared from the upcoming Solaris 9, it's going to be great
eeuh and now you state solaris is superior because all of the things
that will be in there in the next release
really if you try to make a point give some decent examples.
nope ..
[redzebra@claw]# echo Beige | od -t x1
0000000 42 65 69 67 65 0a
0000006
note the 0a is the newline
-- red.
Beige spelled out in hex would be 42 65 69 67 65
...
... so a mere correction would be that the answer to
the universe is basicly 42 hex...
... just some deep thoughts
--red
..Whatever job you do, one of the greatest abillities you can have is that you can admit where you 're missing the needed knowledge. That way people will teach you the most and you can still show your master capabillities when they enter your terretory.
For tech people it's maybe a bit easier to conform to this because they are more confronted with hard facts. Many managers however try to get away by bluffing to their superiors and colleges because they tend to get away with it.(many of them lack the nessecarry knowledge)
--red.
Let me guess, you have a multimilion contract and they had a newbey which could use some training :-)...
#2) When they boast about binary compatibility frSo, as you can see, there is more to the decision than just cost. In the world that i work in, time is money, and the hardware cost is a very small percentage of the TCO.om $1,000 to $10,000,000, they are not kidding. I can give the developers a low end box and know that the app will still work on a mid to high end box
eeuh, 2 posibilities here : a) you're talking hw, and i don't understand you at all. The only one which did care for downward campatibilit was INTEL (also only reason why it stayed popular) b) you're talking about software and then it's just stupid. Just recompiling you're app for newer hardware gives you a better performing app. Binary compatibility is just a stinky way to be able to hide theire source.
#3) It just works. I dont get the "what glib are you using", "is that rev XYZ of that nic?" or any of that other crap.
#4) the hardware seems to last forever and ever and ever. And sun supports the stuff for a long time. Every try and get dell to support a six year old box? yeah, good luck.
Right, but for SUN's 1x price I can get a a newer box each year.
#5) did i mention the support?
Euch you mean the part where you get forwarded from helpdesk to helpdesk and finaly get a ticketnumber saying you're in their problem database ???
#6) it was built to be managed from a serial port and live on a network from day 1. I love the fact that i can put all of my servers in a colo, walk out, and do the OS install from home. I know that PC's are now beginning to get to the point where you can hook a serial cable up and get them to boot from the net and do an os install. lets face it, there are whole books on how to use jumpstart in the sun environment and do 100% hands off installs. It just works, and it is fully supported.
Correct yourself here too.. you are talking about the UNIX way, not about the SUN way. The same can easily and much cheaper be achieved on PC hw with a free unix like bsd or linux.
So, as you can see, there is more to the decision than just cost. In the world that i work in, time is money, and the hardware cost is a very small percentage of the TCO.
Please stop glorifying SUN, the only reason you need them is because they have an IT department with a legal department to back them up. (which is the key for most of their businesses) For the rest it's just a big corp not much diffrent from M$ : some brilliant guys and lot's of morron's acting important
--red
"'m so tired of having to decide which featureset I want to use today. For C++ development I use Kdevelop, because ...."
Basicly you're saying that any choice is confusing so it's better to give up the freedom of choice...
In the same lines your say you're using both because you prefer some features of each...
Seems like the problem is you can't make up your mind and blame it on the choice.
"The GNOME/KDE choice is annoying. Honestly I don't care which one goes away, I just wish one of them would."
The solution you then offer is throw away the choices and live with what's imposed
.
I'am sure you'll be the first one complaining about the fact they threw out the wrong one
...
go away troll
Your missing the point... The guy is telling you that unix is a giant toolbox. The tools are already there for decenia and allow you to do almost anything.
... it's text... it can even be read to you if you want too
>Riiight, but can they read or write email?
...oh you are trolling, of course they can
>How about Gnome? How disability friendly is the >latest build of StarOffice? Mozilla?
Eeuh do you think any blind man would care how flashy StarOffice or Mozilla is ??? Lynx combind with with text2speech on the otherhand could make is day
>So fine, lets say that 1 in 25 computer users rely entirely on the CLI - lets so that 1 in 5 of those have a type of disability, and lets say that 1 in 10 of those are blind. I am sure that all six of them will be reassured that grep is braille compatible.
The point is that CLI is a much better interface and that GUI's just complicat things because of the need of sight en good motorics. Unix is just better equiped to redirect input from any device towards any application with standard tools. This also doesn't mean that the disabled needs to learn CLi. Any device input can easyly generate any CLI
which then does whathere is wanted. The power recides in the fact that the GUI & application are 2 different things an that you don't even need the GUI to get things done.
You can publish all the user posts but you're not obliged to publish those you don't want to. From that point web owners are not any diferent than normal publishers. All risk are avoided if you stick to the publishing part, since you only publish what you want too. Messing with people's post will nowhere be accepted. Deletion is not a problem since it's surely your right not to publish things you don't want. For the rest, your visitors will decide wether they feel you do an honnest job. If you'don't they won't come back :-)
That said, I do largely agree with you. As much as I dislike Microsoft and Win9x (and NT for that matter; not used 2k, ME or XP), it is nice to be able to walk into a shop and barely even have to worry about system requirements, let alone exact matching of OS and hardware.
...)
...:-)
Uhum You didn't buy a game for a long time since in that case you would know that for any game you buy you have to tripple check the hw requirements (Pentium2/3/4, Mhz, 3D Accel...) and software requirements (DirectX 5/6/7 win95/98 not win31
P.S.... don't worry about this glitch in you're thought's... you're not the only one. The MS marketing department spent billions in making people think this way
... it has graphics,windows,mouse support
so let's just boot applications iso of operating systems...
( who needs those anyway ??? )
red ---
The problem isn't the locking but the environment.that the users are used too.
... really. In a decent configured unix environment you're used that everything is locked down. Developers have :
* their homedirs where they can mess with whatever they want,
* some cvs/clearcase to manage all their development stuff
* whatever tools they need will be available through network mounted dirs only handled by the IT department. (You still want this fancy tool you like ? No problem, IT-can install it and it will be availlable to all your co-developer on all machines.)
So I can't see why something simillar wouldn't work for a windows environment.You could consider installing also some less workrelated stuff on the network (which wouldn't realy harm. e.g. mp3players,...) Many people will actualy be pleased that they get all the stuff without having to mess around themselves.
Really moderators, giving a troll +3 interresting while his comments are completly offtoppic is realy sad.
It's offtopic because this is just a linux/windows troll. All of the arguments/examples have nothing to do with opensource.
OS:
Just give me 1 example of a commericial unix which beats it opensource counterpart (none of them will even match half your arguments)
APPLICATIONS:
Mozilla is named as example. But tell me, was the code somuch better when it was still closed source and called netscape ?
stop trolling, compare apples and apples,
If you 're looking for arguments against open source an alternative way to find them is looking for arguments in favour of patents (not only software patents) Many of the arguments will be reusable.
:-)
However I can't promise they will make more sense of course
--red.
MS is just (like so may lobbies/groups) trying to get all kinds of bills passed in the afterheat of the wtc dissaster.
The correct description for this behaviour is : industrial profeteering from terroristic attacks.
Compared to that, virusses are just child play... sad enough.
-- red.
The Bad : it emulates binaries, which ain't new and is just important for closed source stuff
The ugly : timotroll making lame remarks concerning licence violations without having a clue At least kudoz to the guy(s) building SkyOS. Even if this OS doesn't suite your needs, they're not the ones doing nothing and complaining: -- red.Basicly what is being asked for is :
1) don't tell anybody of the problem
2) If you must tell them, don't prove it
It wories me that some people in the security comunity already seem to accept that the prove should be hidden. I wonder how long it will take untill they think the facts should be hidden too.
--red.
Ok what the hell is going on ? I enter this url without a space between the o and c and used old/plain text mode. Verified it twice but it ... grrr . (so its proc04-reed.html at the end of the url for those who didn't notice the gap)
reappears back each time
oop's a space popped up in the middle, sorry
p ro c04-reed.html
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/pubs/trans/9904/87
-- red.
Here's the reference :-)
p ro c04-reed.html
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/pubs/trans/9904/87
-- red.