Slashdot Mirror
Do You Like Your Job?
G-shock asks: "I've worked for the government (NASA), large public companies, and small startups as a software engineer. They all have something in common. It seems like management at this company is just winging it. I find myself putting all my energy, both mental and emotional, into a project only to be disappointed by decisions made by management. I really feel like management at my current employer is disconnected from what is actually going on. They manage a project, but not the people. They also seem to lack any real vision. Direction is constantly changing and proper time is not given to engineer these changes correctly. This leads to mandated quick and dirty solutions that end up being maintained with great pain for long periods of time. All this leads to me feeling cynical about the work I'm doing. What I want to know is, how can I feel good about the work I'm doing if I don't have confidence in my management? How many of you are happy with your management? Why? Why not? What can I do about this? Thanks in advance for your insight." Considering that this seems to be a common problem in technology companies, and seeing as we have been producing software for basically half a century, do you think that managing software projects is a different beast than the management of anything else? How many of you have had this problem in your career and what did you do to adjust?
...richie - It is a good day to code.
The gods created managers to keep our species from competing with them.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
i just got fired monday. they wanted a mission critical piece of an application. it was a protocol gateway, and one of the protocols was totally undocumented. i told them six weeks at best. they told me three i said no, they said you're fired.
so, yes, somtimes they are crazy, and *you* need to decide if you want to be absorbed into the madness or retain your sanity. and the outcome aint always pretty. you got to decide what its worth.
four-oh-four
... at this point, I wish I had a job.
Less Talk, More Beer.
You ask me if I like my job? I absolutely love it! Being a garbageman is the best profession in the world! You wouldn't believe all the wonderful things have discarded, and I get them all, _for free_!! Plus, I get to see cute little racoons and bacteria and greet them every day at work. It is really fun when I find a discarded banana, then I get an extra special snack.
Plus, being a garbageman gives me lots of time to think about the universe and discuss it with clients like Dilbert!
I don't have a job, so yes I like it. But if I did, I probably wouldn't, since they all tend to suck. Then again, you can't buy hardware with good looks, which I have suprisingly little of. (That goes for both good looks and hardware)
Please hire me. Unemployment is running out.
If I told you on slashdot I would probably get fired. ;)
I'm a technical writer for a relatively stable software company. I work with computers *and* get paid. In this economy, that's a rare and wonderful thing.
Got Rhinos?
because they understand what is needed.
When I started at my current job, I was not sure what to expect, being under the assumption that management knows nothing. But later finding out that most of the management here has done some programming before. In fact one of the main managers was the only programmer here when the business started up.
I believe this makes for the best workplace as a programmer because everyone above you knows how you are feeling. What to expect from you. What is hard/easy etc.
Atleast that's my view on it anyways.
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. -- Homer J. Simpson
Why does this apply to only tech companies?
During my short history on this planet, every single place I have worked seems to have this problem. Not just tech companies.
It seems to be human nature to not want to deal with the messy social part of management and handle only the relatively easy business part.
Just my 2 cents I guess.
"It's comin' back around again..." -RATM
1 year jobless San Jose.
Has anyone else noticed how Pro GWB the jerry springer show has become? Guess the only one's with jobs are strippers and trailer park trash.
not happy with my immediate manager :-(
Has anyone else just got a job lately after looking for a long time or still struggling to find one, reply here.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
In the end I've been fortunate to have good managers... what have they had in common? They've become my friends outside of work. That isn't to say managers and employees must or should spend time away from work but working with people you LIKE really helps. In practice manager's I've liked have worked hard, valued by input and been able to contructively criticize me in a way that has helped me grow.
Software development may be 50 years old... lots of things have changed and one could argue that the pace of change is only getting faster. What doesn't change is that development of any kind is a whole bunch of people individually developing themselves- the end result is (or isn't) some kind of product. Manager's that are technically-minded work best with software developers because developers are technically minded.
Seems obvious but has not been the norm as far as I can tell.
I worked at .Bombs .Coms and .Profitable Motor Companies and a lot of other places as everything from Technical contractor to a "Scientist" to Director of New Business... I now work at a non profit and I have to say I never felt better. I hate the tedium of some of the stuff I do but everyone seems to care here. As soon as you take good old fashion $$$$ from the equation (I still get paid, just not at market rate), everything seems to work better. Human Service organizations are just great to work at mainly because getting a project done has something very visual and positive in its outcome... just my few cents (literally)
Unless they have been promoted through the ranks and understand the position of the peons, they suck. New management fresh out of school is the worst!!!
I think, thoughm that now with the economic trend, we'll see more experienced and effective management as new hires. Certainly the existing clueless wonders should be shaping up or getting ready for the axe.
This sounds like the beginning of a dilbert cartoon. Dilbert is too close to reality to be funny.
Know what pisses me off most? It isn't my boss or my coworkers or the clients... it's the perception of the industry in general. Mod this as offtopic if you must, but what's killing me are those damn MCSE commercials that make people think that anyone can better their life by going to school for 6 months to learn MS products. Talk about scams... they promise outragiously high salaries and give the impression that if YOU possess the urge and desire to better your life, then YES, ANYONE can learn this stuff... just another make-money-quick scheme.
"Just tell him ya did it! That's what he wants to hear anyway..."
There is a problem with a program that has little to do with me. However, they are looking for a scapegoat and the general concensus that if it hits my area, then I am the sacrificial lamb.
The thing that sucks is that I am the most technically proficient and the best with dealing with the modern technical issues in my area.
I suppose this gives me reason to move on to bigger and better things now.
--
.sig seperator
--
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Everywhere I've ever been has been like this except for one, and that's the company that went belly-up this past May. I don't know if there's a connection there or not, but it does seem to be the rule rather than the exception.
The important thing to remember is that management personnel -- like everyone else -- do not get promoted because they do a good job. They get promoted because they managed to convince their superiors that it's to their advantage. Actually doing a good job is one way to do that, but so is ass-kissing, lying, intimidation, submission, being related to the boss, having good internal connections, making coffee and giving head. If you want to go far, you need to ignore the management propaganda that Arbeit macht frei and actually look around to see who gets promoted and why. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to give up your devotion to quality, but it does mean that you have to come to grips with the fact that you may be the only person concerned with the quality of your work and you need to figure out what your superiors are concerned with.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
Do I like my job? Well let's take a look. Do I like the phone the rings no stop? Do I like the customers on the other end? Do I like the bullshit policies I have to follow? Do I like working the off the wall hours every week? Do I like my co-worker who smells and is greasy using my work station? Do I like the vending machine that refuses to dispense my candy bar? Do I like my inept managers?
;)
No, but that's life and that's what pays the bills. Boo Hoo You don't like your job at NASA... Suck it up and deal with it, or move on, because there sure as hell is someone else out there that will do your job, and probably for lesser money.
I don't mean to sound angry, but if you don't like your job quit. Do something else. Otherwise suck it up and do your best and be happy with your paycheck. Find outside interests, take pride in what you do outside work. Get a girlfriend, fuck your wife, whatever. Just don't complain to 1/2 a million people about it.
I'll bash you in the face.
Work your way up to management and you too can spend your days on the golf course.
God I hate them^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hbless them.
Looks can be deceiving. Or CAN they?
That seems to be why many professional programmers work on open source projects. You get to spread your technical wings without managers.
I work for a company that practices draconian software at it's finest. I have to fight for weeks, nay months, to get some improvement on the tools available. And the list goes on.
Many hours are spent on something that is casually swept aside by some new marketing spin
What do I do about it? I don't care that much really. Call me apathetic, call me brilliant. But I do the work, learn some stuff and get paid for it. I am not interested in running the company and the company is not interested in what I see as important or useful. We co-exist in a symbiotic relationship with both sides agreeing not to have too many conversations. Management and Code do not easily mix. Especially in the typical management environment
I recent left a job however, that had one good manager that knew how to balance these projects out. The one's that he saw as important where prioritized, and the one's that had hype where given a somewhat longer schedule. That way, then the ship had to do an about turn, there wasn't as much mass to move.
I think it's a matter of following the important projects with more zeal than the hyped projects and leaving at all behind you, no matter what, when you walk out the door. I get paid so that I can run my own server at home and play PlayStation. I enjoy both -- but to think that my work is all that important that it won't get cast aside in a moment is folly.
Well, it's difficult to manage software development. There are so many invisibles. The world is changing during the project, so the goalposts are moving. You, and the business, and the competition, and everyone else is learning all the time, and as you learn your goals change.
Some bosses are alpha males. You try to get them to understand something and they get defensive. They will not back down an inch and even if you prove them wrong, they will make your life suck. I happen to have such a boss and I can tell you the only thing that works. THINK ABOUT YOUR PAY CHECK! Some people don't have jobs today. Be happy that you have one.
To like your job, you'd have to get a new job or find a way to get rid of your boss. You're not going to change and neither is your boss.
For the advice part:
Do exactly what your boss is telling you to do. If he asks for advice, give it. If he still tells you to do something else, he has no respect for you. Make a note of this, since you're the designated expert who will actually do the work. It will bear credence. Make sure that he orders you to do whatever you need to do, because then he is liable. He might try to turn it around on you, but just stand firm. Record all the incidents where your advice has been neglected and the result has been poor due to management decisions. Then take it above your boss. He'll at least be reprimanded, but most likely fired.
It sounds like Innovative Resource Group in Pittsburgh, PA.
My company seems to think that Dilbert is the ultimate authority on management style! I swear I saw Ratbert today in the coffee room (wait... actually I think that might have been a real rat...) Anyway, it sure is fun to work here and laugh at all of the incompetence.
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
Having been unemployed for a while, any job at this point would be nice. I understand not enjoying your job, but you gotta be happy that you have one. At least I was aware that I was going to lose my job long before it happened, I just couldn't find what I wanted at the time. Now, I'd be happing flipping burgers.
Peace!!
...and end up with a geek who got stuck in a management position. My boss was sitting in the lab today cussing out a stubborn dual-proc Sparc, up to his elbows in eviscerated parts.
:)
That's when you _know_ the guy upstairs is watching out for you
Skivvy Niner? Email me!
HEY! Look left just ONE MORE TIME!
Managers should provide the idea and what they want the produce to do. The can specify what the GUI should like like and how other UI parts may work. They should also manage the development team members and get what positions are needed (security, UI, scalability, general programming, etc). They can check up on the coders and make sure their progress is decent and try to get the dev team to work together in the best possible way.
Coders should manage how the code is structured and how things are implemented.
File formats, etc could be determined by either. Sometimes management wants their own proprietary format, while coders may have better suggestions which are easier to impliment and/or more efficient.
I find I work best when the pressure is low and management isn't trying to make all my decisions for me.
Best job search site around
I just got two jobs in the bay area one part time the other full time so it looks like the market is picking up, good luck.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
I'm going to come along and ask you shift yourself into positive mode, mmmkay?
If you could plow through those TPS reports, that'd be great... Yeah, okay, and I'm gonna need you to go ahead and come in on Saturday, mmmkay, greaaaaat...
Hell, I'm unemployed
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
Unfortunately, the longer I've worked, the more I've come to realize that *many* (too many) companies are run exactly like this.
Infact, I've not yet worked for one, or contracted for one, that wasn't.
It's frustrating to work for these places. Sometimes degrading, but most of all back breaking. Nothing's ever finished 100%, there's no time for proper design, nor implementation. And sometimes you just have to wonder what the fuck goes on behind the door in those management meetings!!
I think I'm slowly giving up. I'd always hoped that I'd find that "one place" where things were done *right*. Each job I take, I get a little closer. But I'm not there yet.
Luckily I'm approaching that middle-management-age, so at the right place, I may be able to change things for the better (for the developers). That'd be a huge accomplishment, because at most places all the other department's (publications, marketing) are hindered with similar management/policy/timeframe problems. Except they sometimes get a sense of finality - when a print publication is printed and sent - they can sigh in relief. Ours - well, there's always something that needs to be changed on one of the websites, the code, the network, security policy, servers, hardware... just add it to the to-do list. It's the neverending beast.
http://slashdot.org/~tf23/journal
I really enjoy my work at Xoxide Modifications. While I'm doing more technical stuff for them, the guys in managment and guys doing the physical work are all highly competent. I especially enjoy being able to help find better ways of doing things in all areas of the company, not just technical stuff since my input is always appreciated. Plus we have some kick ass modded cases =)
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
I've found that if you are in an engineering field, competent former engineers make the best managers. They have first hand experience about what it takes to do a job and do it correctly. Of course, not all engineers make good managers, but most good managers were at one point a good engineer. This applies equally well to other diciplines, of course.
The reason for this is because they have good working knowledge from both sides of the fence. They are aware of the buisiness concerns (time schedules, money, the competition) and engineering concerns. For instance, they can take the long view and recognize that putting a little more design and documentation work up front usually results in a better, more maintainable project. It also keeps the engineers happy (and by extention more productive) which is better for the company.
However, there are occasions where it does make better business sense to kill or rush a project. Former engineers are much more capable of conveying this to the workforce in a manner that they can accept.
--
.. but I don't like my life. I broke up with my long term girlfriend a couple of weeks ago 'cos I found out she's been cheating on me for the past couple of months while I've been away working.
I can't concentrate very easily at the moment and my boss, while happy to give me some leeway to begin with, is starting to get pissy as his boss demands that things get done!
Also I blame the job for what happened - if I hadn't have been away for so long, she probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to be unfaithful.
So, I sort of like my job, but the rest of my life is screwing it up. bah.
I've been out of college less than a year and I'm on my second Tech Job. Both have been professionally satisfying, but like many others will probably say, management seems to be constantly 10 or more steps behind. I'm too inexperienced to speculate why, but it seems to me that rather than let the specialists take 5 minutes to plan and prepare to tackle whatever the critical error of the moment is, management wants results NOW NOW NOW.
It's like I overheard the other day: do something now and apologize for it later. Even if it was a joke (which it was), I feel it's a rather good way to describe the situation--not only where I work but all over the place in IT. It seems everyone's just a bit crazy to me, but hey, they pay us to play with computers. I'm still trying to figure that one out.
Maybe I'm wrong.
...those who can't play, teach.... ...those who can't work (efficiently), manage.... ..I can understand his frustration. I have yet to work for any type of management team that I felt was even close to being competent. Maybe it is because they spend too much looking at the big picture and forget about everything else.
All I know now is that the way the management at my current company treats its employee's, there is no loyalty for this company. Once the economy gets back on its feet, a lot of people are going to leave and they will only have themselves to blame.
The only real upside is that I have a job and I feel for you guys that don't. I was unemployed for 5 months until I found this one. I wish you guys who are unemployed the best of luck finding a job.
A-freakin-men
Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
Those that can't teach, manage.
The problem often is that an orginization doesn't need more managers - they need leaders.
are ones where 1) you're the boss so since it's your livelihood on the line you can decide what's important 2) You make no freaking money but all your coworkers are excellent or 3) the Venture Capital is funding your job but your boss (in spite of warnings) doesn't notice he's on the Titanic.
Every good job I've had has been underpaid or short term. Every excellent paying job I've had to deal with morons at every turn. You learn to deal with it or put your money where your mouth is and start your own company.
Poor management plagues nearly every industry. Ever pay attention to Dilbert cartoons? Through some fluke of nature, the incompetent and less knowledgeable human beings somehow end up being in management.
The computer industry is exceptionally vulnerable to poor management. The industry moves quickly. A company is likely to go nowhere when under the leadership of incompetent individuals. In my case, I work at software company lead by old gray haired men that literally think DOS is the future. Think my career is going anywhere? And thats just the point. Its not just the company that suffers, but the careers of the individuals at the company that also suffer.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
Unfortunately, your comment on the commonality of "missed-management" is not limited to your experiences. This phenomenon is sadly common.
I used to know a retired Army Airborne Lt. Col. The words he used to describe both the problem and the solution were, "Managers manage things. Leaders lead people".
This inspired me, a Sr. Network Admin, to pursue my MBA just so I could speak the language of business. Luckily I was able to skip the class where they performed the labotomies, so I think I managed to hold on to my grip on reality (relatively speaking, of course).
In short (too late), my degree has given me some credibility to implement change. The old saying, "Wherever you go, there you are", doesn't exactly apply...you aren't the problem. You will, unfortunately, find the problem wherever you go...unless you take strides to make change where you can and learn to live with the areas where you can't.
Probably not very helpful, huh? Is it at least practical?
In answer to your original question: Yes, I love my job...but only since I started speaking my mind, nicely, of course (and in my MBA voice), and helping decision makers identify the bobbles.
Regards...
Did you ever stop to consider that maybe, just maybe, the reason that you disagree with the decisions managers make is because you simply don't have the same perspective on the issues surrounding the project and its context within the entire corporation?
That being said, you're probably right that most managers are just winging it. I often have the same kind of feelings about management where I've worked, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're not as dumb as I think. Maybe they are.
Every unemployed tech worker can sympathize with this guy
I do software QA and Process (No, I'm not a test weeny, been doing this a long time and used to write code myself). I have found that very few people (including programers) understand how to engineer things. And upper management often thinks it's the same as building tractors and it's not.
Because there is no 'physical' product with code, nothing you can 'hold in your hand' they just don't understand how hard it is. And because there are NO practices in the Programming field like there are in Hardware, they don't realize that so much has to be written from scratch each and every time.
Of course part of this is due to the fact that the computer programmers are in the science department and not the engineering department and views differ greatly between the two. IF people would stop coming up with new langauges constantly (for no good reason) and work with only a handful, then maybe we'd see more code reuse, and faster development times with less bugs. (Remember, you always spend more fixing bugs after it goes out the door, then you did developing it.)
In my opinion the major reason behind this is the tendency for large groups of people, all who believe that they need to put thier fingerprint on the project. Before long you have a lot of people making decisions, that really have no business even influencing the process. If the project is kept to a minimum number of needed people for each stage, I find that the projects are much more likely to be on time. The worst thing you can do for a design meeting is have more people than are needed. I find more than about four leads to a lot of wasted time.
I remember one project where I had to get a large group of people to agree to the design of the project and then when we would get it done(eventually), I would take it to management who would seem to make really abitrary changes merely to show that they had influenced the project. The really cool part was when one manager would totally contradict another.
My Weblog
If it always seems like management is out of touch with you, perhaps its you that are out of touch with management. I think that a lot of tech people are out of touch with management, and just think that Dilbet==Reality. In some cases, maybe it just SEEMS like Dilbert to you.
I don't mean that in a 'bad way'... I'm just saying that there are pressures on management that can be more varied and complex than the stuff you deal with... I mean, have you ever really considered WHERE those dollars in your paycheck come from? Really... I mean, WHERE do they COME FROM?
But, I have worked for the same company for over 6 years... a lifetime in this industry. I work with some people who have been here 15 years, even though my company is just 15 years old... We have a turnover rate of less than 6%, and EVERYONE loves working here. I am a software engineer (actually, I consider myself a craftsman), but management does not insulate us... they educate us.
I got me some crack, I want me some hoes!!!
It's not the rant you think.
When I was young, I looked down on politics, figured I didn't need to deal with it, etc.
By the time I finally started to understand it, most of my working life was gone.
The thing to know is that politics is more than a game: it is the essence of working with and through other people to get things done. You don't have to become Machiavelli and you don't have to stab backs. Learning what people -- even managers -- cherish, and understanding the real power subordinates have over their bosses will lead to a lot more "wins" and a lot more sensible decisions than doing the typical "I don't care about politics" schtick.
What's sad is that we don't have to be as good at it as the managers are, though some of us do have tremendous potential.
We just have to be smart enough to listen and get listened to.
Techies will never win them all, or even all of the ones we should. Nice to win some, though.
The whole blip is about management and how do the editors summarize that to the subject ... "Do you like your _job_?"
/. readers are managers?
The editors must think quite a percentage of the
(either that or illiterate)
((which is something I wouldn't mind being when browsing some of the stuff posted here, like this message for example))
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
Actually, I like my boss. He has no clue what I do and doesn't care either. He just asks me if I can get something done and how long it might take. No demands for getting it done in 3 days...yet.
And for this, I do what I feel is a good job at it. But it's my best guess.
No job will be perfect, unless maybe if you work for yourself, --but I wouldn't know. I've tried the huge money management stuff before and it sucked canal water like nobodies business. I got fired from that job and was grateful for it.
You have to like your job for what it is and for what you put into it. Not what comes out of it or the decisions others make. Everywhere is the same BS. My wife works in a special needs school and she has a dozen kids with severe mental handicaps every day. She has days where they literally fling turds around the room and in walks the principal... And she wouldn't miss a day of that job for the world! She puts into it exactly what she gets out of it. And if she can do that -- then I can certainly struggle through converting some vague management vision into something tangible. And so can you!
For the last 4 years I have been working as an accountant and sys admin at a small public acct. firm. I love being accountant. It is all I always expected it to be.
Sys admin side of my job I kinda dred but it has to be done and someone has to do it - and the best part of it is they pay me for doing it.
When looking for a job the money should not be an objective at least not the primary one. After all who would want to spend 8 10 or 12 hours working in a job he or she hates. I know I wouldn't
I absolutely agree with the fact that management makes horrible decisions most of the time. The only thing that keeps me going is the occasional time that I get to something new to me and to management. These are usually short projects that have to be done yesterday, but at least I get to learn something new, or at least do something old in a new way. It helps, but then again I don't work on many long term projects (> 6 months). -R
I've been doing the same basic thing for about 12 years now - writing software to administer retirement plans. Sounds boring, but it is my system and I ultimately have the say about what it does and how it works. If I choose poorly, then we lose clients (so I try not to choose poorly). For the first six years, the work was somewhat freelance, but in 1996 my father and I started a company around the using the software to serve as a backoffice for others. We now have about 15 people and service the entire country - all from a small town in Louisiana. I work with great people and look forward every day to going to work. It does take a lot of sweat equity to get things going, but the end result is entirely worth it. I would recommend trying to borrow as little as possible because it is better to grow slowly than to have a bunch of investors to answer to. Also the general rule of thumb is three years before you will make any sort of profit (if you are doing well).
I can totally relate to this description of management being detached. After trying to deal with this myself I came to an important personal conclusion. How detached am I from management? Am I asking the right questions at the right time? Am i spending too much time working on things that I'm not reasonably sure will be part of a final product? The point is that the communication channel must be 2 way. You can expect to have problems if you're not accepting feedback from management along the way.
Think of it as finishing a loop of code when you could break halfway through. The processing time is wasted in needless clock cycles because you're not checking to see if you should continue what you're doing. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but hopefully my you get my point.
Yes, there are times when I hate my job, but it's probably mostly due to the fact that I make things harder than they really are. Communicate, Respond accordingly as the project unfolds, and be happy because you're not doing monotonous work!
There's a skill you must have to enjoy investing yourself in a complicated, demanding, intellectual job - and I wish I had advice for developing this skill, but I don't - you have to be able to tell who's a competent, visionary administrator (yes, such people do exist, god bless them) and who is, to be frank, an idiot (lots of those, as I'm sure you've all noticed.)
So, before you take a job, go and meet the management. Even if it means taking a pay cut, my advice is to work for smart people, and enjoy your work.
If you don't have the luxury (I'm a computational biologist, so I do) of choosing your employer / PI (that's what a scientist's boss is called) / project manager / what have you, then, well, you can't expect to be happy at your job. Most people are in the position of taking whatever job they can get, and they're unhappy with what they end up with. So, if you're one of the few people with the luxury of choosing where to work, get your priorities straight and at least consider the competence (to say nothing of worthiness) of the prospective co-workers, in addition to the economics.
I'm happy at my job, by the way.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
... is that when my boss comes to me with some dulusion of grandure of a project i will sit there, maybe even take notes and nod and smile. Once he thinks he is done, he will go over stuff again, and add more stuff in the process. After it has become my job to complete it, i put my notes away, and go back to the actual problem i was working on before hand. Eventualy he realizes he was reinventing the wheel and tells me i dont have to do it anymore.
At one point i used to take his projects seriously, but after 5 or 6 of this huge undertakings, i stoped caring. The thing that i never understood was, I am a part time worker as i'm still in school and i was always given these huge projects and a deadline that even a full time worker couldn't meet.
So my advice would be to nod, smile, and get back to the real work you were doing beforehand.
A month and a week ago, I was laid off from here. I've been at my new job now for three weeks; I've had a little bit of time to get my bearings and I can already see striking differences.
At my old job, management (not my boss, but management) was abysmal. We were constantly being handed something that needed to be done yesterday, being told to get it done ASAP and drop everything else we were doing to come up with a solution given inadequate resources. We were always short on machines, manpower, time, budget, and respect. In the midst of the latest Hot Project, management would walk in and tell us there was something else we should be doing instead, and why the hell weren't we doing that?
At my new job, there are a few levels of management. I'm only really directly affected by the level directly above me. This is similar to my old job, but with one important difference: so far, my boss has sheltered us from most of the crap raining down from above (the raining of crap is to be expected anywhere, really.)
We actually have money to get our tasks done. We have the time to get them done in (more or less). We also aren't reassigned all over the fucking place because management fucked something up.
I like it so far. Plus I got free money from my old job, w00t!
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
That's what I did. Like most people here, I've been playing with computers most of my life. I knew I wanted to get into computer SOMETHING, and I did.
:)
I spent almost 5 years at an ok job, with crappy management, just like you're describing. BUT, the reason I stayed, was to learn as much on the job as possible (Just because they SAY they'll provide training, don't expect it).
What experience did I get?
Netware
General Networking
Cisco/CSU's/bridges
MORE OS/2 than I had previously (oh and REXX)
TCP/IP (only IPX when I started, migrated everyone)
C
Foxpro
PERL
PHP
Fujitsu PBX
wiring
Hell.. I've got a whole slew of stuff on my resume on my website - www.havokmon.com . No, I'm not an expert on all of them, I don't need to be. Just enough to be dangerous, as they say. The trick is being competant enough that you don't have to revisit what you've done to fix it
I bided my time. What did I get? I'm an "IT Manager" now, but I'M the ONLY IT person, at a smaller company. Suits me just fine. I STILL do everything from programming (much more Foxpro now) to Networking, and I've added EDI, and a Norstar (yuk!) PBX to my list. PLUS, I MAKE ALL THE DECISIONS. If I don't get something I want, I only have myself to blame. I only need to convince the VP of Finance.
Suggestion: Find out what you like to do, andq what you don't like, and just be patient. The job will come to you.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
You know the tech side you have seen all the bad and the good managers out there.
If you feel the way you do then you are ready..
Join them and teach them how it should be done.
Honest, what do you have to loose.
At the very least you'll see their side of the story if there is any and appreciate it or kick A** and trail blaze away.
Try it. You'll not be disappointed.
I've worked for serveral smaller companies. Most recently I worked at a semi-well known video game company that the employees had come from another lesser well known company. When I first started working there I was very excited, and I worked my ass off, but as time went on I knew that the company was doomed. They had programmers that would simply lie about what they knew and how much work was being completed. They made dead-lines that were impossible to hit, and when they were missed it was like, "Oh well we've got to do better next time." The biggest problem is that they still to this day don't realize that they have a problem.
Why is this? Because simply the people who managed the programmers did not have a clue about what the programmers were doing. If some one told them that a bug was caused by this or that, they had to trust them. They had no way of seeing how much was being produced by any individual. Programmers often took credit for those "below" them, and those who were being ripped off were seen as the slackers.
In most businesses there's a progression from the ground up. You work in a clothing store as a stocker or cashier, eventually you'll be the one who becomes the manager if you stick with it and are a good employee. In my experience no one want to let the programmers manage because they have "poor people skills" or whatever so outsiders with no relevant programming experience are brought in. While a lot of these people are doing their jobs to the best of their ablity, they just can't manage the development of software with out actually developing it.
So, I've taken the next step. I'm starting my own company. I'm a programmer and I know how to make software, and I know what causes bugs, what holds up production, and what keeps programmers happy. However, I will try to avoid the mistakes I've seen. For example, I will not be trying to manage a sales team, I will bring people who have relvant experience, and let them do that job.
BTW, these aren't just imagined problems at this company, their currently in Chapter 11, and the magic eight ball says "outlook not so good".
I find myself putting all my energy, both mental and emotional, into a project only to be disappointed by decisions made by management.
This Is The Story Of My Recent Life.
It's actually *pleasant* to hear that others have to put up with this. I switched to computer science from mechanical engineering so all of my friends are working in a completely different field and I have nobody to vent on.
Moving on...
[text deleted]... I had written a manifesto of my experience as it relates to this topic but removed it based on the fact that all was healed when I realized that nobody cared except me and I found myself pissing (literally) off of the top of a large building.
This actually helped set my mind at ease. I'm not sure why but I would recommend it.
The funny part is that I am serious...
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
I work for one of the largest startups ... even though we bought ZDNet the managers still like to call us that. Yes it's CNET. CNET is nothing more than a clustering of startups under one roof. They purchase small companies and add them, then give the person who started up the company a management role.
This does not work, simple because people who start up companies are used to doing things on their own time, by themself, by their own rules, without communicating. They arn't trained managers, they don't have MBAs, they can't plan a year in advance and they don't know what common practices are.
Winging it got them there and they don't plan on changing. Most of them, after the buyout, are rich. This makes them worst to deal with since they don't have the same motivation that normal workers do. For example, starving and being homeless. So improving themself is a waste of their time. They just don't want to be bothered while the golden handcuffs are on.
CNET has some good ideas, but the management is horrid. It's like an internet club for the rich and egocentric.
It's only a matter of time until smaller, better managed companies start to nibble away at them.
Everyone seems to have missed the second part of the question (much more fun to bitch I guess). I do believe that managing software is significantly different than managing other projects (say buildling an airplane or a bridge).
;)
Much of that I believe comes from the ever expanding nature of software itself. Yes we've been programming for half a century now, but the nature and size of the software we write is significantly larger and more complex than anything anyone had to deal with back then (we can thank the hardware companies for that). Then throw in the fact that software is a constantly moving target and things get really screwy. The laws of physics aren't constantly being updated every three years, so airplane builders can focus on improvments within a known environment (for the most part). Could you imagine if the laws of aerodynamics changed every few years with a major paradigm shift every 6 or 7 years (Cooeficient of Drag 7.0 has given way to cd2002 and all your old formula no longer work, sorry).
However, one thing that I really don't hear people talk about insofar as software being a bitch to manage, is the simple fact that it's generally accepted that software will feature creep, be buggy, and that market pressures win out over software robustness. Even those who think that they are not falling prey to this mentality, do it subconsciously. It's the mentality of almost everyone who writes/designs/manages software. It's a iterative process, versions and revs are an integral part of this world.
Oh, and my job sucks. Not really the job, just been doing this for too long
Is it April 1 yet?
Because only one thing counts in this business gents...get them to sign on the line which is dotted.
for geeks to realize that doing a project "right", doesn't matter worth a shit. Businesses have one ultimate goal, and that is to deliver a profit. Get in more in return than what is put in. When customer's attitude, the market, or any subset of infinite things cause direction to change; the delivered product must change as well. Take it from good ole' Bobby Shaftoe and "Display some adaptability".
The recurring theme throughout these posts seems to be a tough shit - suck it up - things are tough all over - it pays the bills. Maybe, I'm off the deep-end here, but I'm having the time of my life the last few years after spending my first few years out of school killing myself trying to make things work for the incompetent asses that manage so many of us. What did I do? I went out and freelanced and when things are tough I work at odd jobs (bartending), or I just keep my expenses low and don't work. I'm sure the first responce to this is going to be "well some of us have bills to pay." I can assure you that after 7 years of private college I do too, but I decided I really didn't need some things in my life that are the big recurring bills - cable tv, tv, books not from the library, a nice car (with nice payment), etc. I've focused on getting quality stuff, repairing things myself, and generally decided to take life in the slow lane. There is nothing quite so fulfilling as learning and doing something the right way because you can. As a result of this method I've consistently earned a little more per hour every year and while I don't make nearly the cash most of my salaried buddies do - I have half the bills, can live in a cheaper area, work from home, and in general have more time to enjoy MY interests in life. The only person keeping you a slave to management is yourself. Most of us earn quite a bit more than the average Joe. Instead of using it to buy new toys, use it to give yourself some more free time, flexibility, instead of a Jetta and X-box.
Boy am I glad this topic came up. This post might start a flame war, but I am sick and tired of this happening - poor management.
First, I would like to congratulate the poster for most eliquently describing a situation that is occuring everywhere in our culture.
Now, here is why this is happening:
Engineers are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
Libral Arts graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
Computer Science graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
History graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
Are we getting somewhere? So, you might now ask, who are supposed to manage the employees? Commerce Graduates. NOT MBAs. Very few MBA graduates have the required theory and experience to properly manage people. As a commerce graduate we have a clear understanding of what people need. We know how to motivate them. We can identify conflicting personallities quickly and know how to resolve them. We go through hundreds of case studies that cover many classical scenrios that come up in product development, manufacturing, HR, etc.
We are educated to manage people (4-5 years of education). Just because you have a degree saying you can code linux in your sleep or build a bridge over a mile-wide river does not mean you can manage people.
Now, there are some great exceptions. Many great managers are not Commerce grads at all. What they are able to do is respect their employees and identify their needs. By seeing what the employees need, they are now able to motivate them properly but fullfuling them to the best of there abilities. Everyone has needs. Fullfilling these needs leads them to happiness. Anyone can be placed in a management role, but very few have the patience (or are able) to identify the needs of their employees.
There are surveys that state needs on a general level. Many are inaccurate because the needs of an individual vary from nation to nation, city to city, job to job, or from time to time.
So, how do identify their needs? You communicate. Yes it is that easy. Few people are now thinking, "This is common sense." But what we learn in Commerce is that common sense is not so common.
Even communication needs to be defined. You have a sender who sends the message. There is the ether where the message travels and noise is added. The noise could be physical barriers, language, culture, speech dialec, idioms, preconceived notions, physical distance, non-verbal gestures etc. Then you have the receiver to whom the message is directed. But that's not it. You see, the biggest problem in commmunication is all that noise. How do you resolve that? Well, part of the communication model has a wonderful little component. It's called feedback.
So, poster, I again congratulate you for addressing this all important topic. But here is what you MUST do.
1) Go to you manager that is ineffective.
2) Communicate your needs clearly.
3) Listen carefully at the feedback you will receive.
4) Repeat steps 1 - 3 until you are satisfied.
Now, I am a geek like you. I just happen to have a Commerce degree. So I ask all geeks to never be afraid to communicate their needs. If you must, be careful when you do, try to assist you manager in clearly understanding what you need, and what the project needs for success. Now there are many times where they will not do what you want them to do. The reasons here are many:
1) The company is under tight constraints and needs to cut corners to get the project out the door and make some (any) money. The manager can't communicate this to you due to confidentiality.
2) The manager is not a good listener - these are the worst types of managers and they are very difficult to change. Some people actually have to LEARN to actively listen. There are many very good courses for these types of people. Check with your local colleges.
3)The mansger does not respect your judgement, advice, etc. In this situation to need to carefully analyse what caused it. Always look at your past actions first, then the manager, then external factors.
4) The manager is having problems balancing the needs of their employees vs. the needs of the organization. The best they can do here, is communicate what these barriers are to their employees. Remember the communication model here.
There are other reasons why they can't do what you want but these are some of the main ones I came accross so far. But always, always make sure they know and understand what you need to make you happy. Then you have done your job as an employee.
----
This
I'm workin in a 2 person partnership right now.. but hope to move on to something bigger. :)
Having only 2 ppl kinda kills some flexibility, either I have to do it or he does. But committee decisions are quick and easy
I've dealt alot with compaq and other larger corps.. VERY screwed up management systems.. and branches of the company might was well be different companies. Absolutly no communication.
I'd like to do something that has enough ppl that can cover/take over for a bit. But still keep enough communication and teamwork as possible
and OT.. 96 comments in thread.. NONE at -1 !!! wow either the -1 mod isnt working or ppl are finally able to have a positive, constructive discussion around here %-)
What you are seeing and feeling is typical. I've dealt with this to some degree with every company I have worked for. May I suggest the following?
First, change what you can; accept what you can't. You will shorten your life if you worry about the things you shouldn't along with the things you should.
You might consider contracting through a job shopper. You get paid a lot of money, do the best job you can and not care about the company's results. I've done this for 7 of the 15 years of my career.
Also, if you are looking for satisfaction, seek it elsewhere other than your job. Involve yourself in an open source project. Or, create a software application that you think should have been written by now. You can successfully sell it on the internet. I've done that with several projects that I did on my own, one JtoExe and another was Quilter's Pro for Macintosh.
And last, when you work as an employee, do not count your options as part of your compensation package. That is fluff that may or maynot pay off in the future. Don't work you a** off because of the options. Do your best, but keep yourself balanced by doing other things, meeting other people (preferably female). Don't sacrifice your life for a job. It's too short.
IMO, many complaints from designers are whiny bullshit (what's that noise? Could it be my Karma spilling away?...). Why would I say such a thing? Because most purely technical complaints ignore business reality, and ignore organizational concerns. If you don't like the way things are going - stop whining and get involved! Don't bitch, fix! Be persistant, make yourself heard, and, before you write off your management, actually listen to them. Just like you feel misunderstood, so do they. Most (yes - most!) managers are reasonable, overworked (just like you), and damn good developers in their own right. Before you write them off, try working with them.
Now, all that being said, there are some situations where there are real problems in management. If your honest, earnest attempts to fix and contribute don't work, apply your professional talents towards making some other company famous. Have the balls to move on.
In the end, any job is a balance between the company's needs and your own. Find a balance you can live with.
I'll post a reply, and I think my manager reads /.
:(
Work sucks. Managment is backstabbing and hiring unskilled employees for dirt-cheap. Layoffs are coming, they told us in our staff meeting "Most costs are fixed, only thing left is employment costs". No pressure.
The above post is not the opinion of ATTWS. You have an MLIFE?
Anyway, my management has always been direct, specific, and helpful. They haven't forgotten that their jobs, as managers, is to HELP the workers get their job done. While one manager did sometimes give you the overwhelming feeling of having been scolded by Miss Tightbun, the stereotypical harsh schoolmarm, she did give specific and relevant directions.
I'm sorry to hear that NASA isn't well-managed. I know that sometimes research takes a turn for the holistic, causing focus to scatter, but that's when a manager needs to set up special teams. Yeah, I know, sub-committees are no fun, but they can be useful.
Better luck and thanks for the question!
Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
It's doesn't hurt though.
You need someone who is proactive, understand risks, and can plan out a year. Most programmers don't want to sit down and write out a requirement and design documents, so planning the life of a project (roadmaps) wouldn't get done.
This is the biggest problem with management. Since they don't have a clear vision on where the project is going, it hard to plan out the day to day tasks. This is what make employees lose confidence in what they are doing.
Programmers who get a MBA, a year after enter the work force, would be perfect.
I work for a large financial company in London that is more heavily involved in IT than most and I must say that 90% of the management are very good. On the other hand my girlfriend works for an advertising company and the management there are all incompetent. Some of the stories I have heard are shocking, they think assertive is screaming and waving your arms about, and getting results seems to involve making female members of staff cry.
Management is a skill set all of its own, the problem is that most managers are very good at what they did, before they got promoted. Some people are good managers and others good programmers.
is that they are people too (well, sometimes). Managers are pretty much stuck in the middle... they get unreasonable and irrational demands from their bosses and they have to try and satisfy those that work for them. Good management is an art that many people are not well equiped to master and a capitalist system which weighs profit above everything else (necessarily) will never satisfy all parties completely.
Sometimes you just have to settle for doing the best you can with the rediculous constraints placed on you. Allow me to illustrate:
Customer wants web based training product to keep track of their students' progress. Use a cookie. They want the students to be able to use the training on multiple computers. Use a web server right? Uhmmm.. no. So I had to write an external program to copy cookies to/from a floppy diskette. It needs to be integrated into the training product itself. OOOOOOoookay.
Now I know why people lust for retirement.
Its time for a new poll anyways...
Do you like your job?
-Yes!
-No!
-What job?
--SONET
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. --Benjamin Franklin
See if you can go to work for a company that has an ISO certification. They may have the processes in place that will keep that kind of last minute hero crap from killing everyone. I am a software quality assurance "engineer" at a small company. After taking my first quality assurance class I realized how screwy the company actually is. I think you would be much happier in a company with a strong quality policy that goes completely through the whole company, from top to bottom. Do some reading on software quality assurance, you'll see what I mean.
Learn to bend the will of management. That seems to be the key. What I do is just slowly but surely work ideas into their head. When they finally realize what a great idea it is, then you credit them with it. This will serve a threefold purpose: 1) The Right Thing gets done 2) Management feels like a million dollars 3) They will come back to you for more
Trust me.
The project is long term and is business stuff and basically putting a new front end on a legacy system. The technology is interesting (Java, servlets, jdbc. database access), but the problem domain is boring to the tenth power.
Management is good though.
a lot of people claim the managers are people who know a lot about the product, and engineering specifics, etc...my experience has not been that way.
if anything, i've found experienced software people/engineers make less than ideal managers...often digging into details, making errant decisions that take months to fix, etc.
my best software manager (previous job) got his masters degree in mnagement from a small, private technical school in california. he was one of those guys who has a somewhat priveleged childhood, but you would never know it from working with him.
primary focus : "what do you need to get the job done?" He know more about software design and programming than he ever let on, and rarely got involved in techinical details unless our design group was missing something obvious.
very big on communication; no secrets allowed. get problems in the open, etc. absolute gem of a guy...no problems, only solutions, very positive attitude, etc.
at the current job i have two managers that are former military and one is okay but the other is a bleeding, incompetent idiot. complains, yells, makes stupid decisions and won't reneg on them, wasting much time and money.
left the previous manager because i felt the dot-com bust coming...but they are still in business and have projects...probably because of him.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
My father just recently was awarded his PhD thesis on the organisation of an academic department and the effects of management on staff morale and the ability of the depatment to perform its function (teaching engineering to students). (Sorry, it's not on the web, but it was done through RMIT, melbourne, australia, which should help finding it.)
... listen to them! At least think about the concept before dismissing it - it may even have merit!
:)
Every so often, while he was writing it, I would send a Dilbert cartoon. His reaction was usually something along the lines of 'but that's the conclusion of chapter 3!'. Spooky.
Seriously, his findings were that his management almost systematically ignored all sugestions of the staff, and implemented their own hare-brained idiot schemes, which didn't work. When they didn't succeed, who was blamed? The staff! Management played their political games and got their bonuses, staff got angry (and left in droves), the students got shafted and everything went to hell in a handbasket.
Of course, his thesis was of a particular situation, but human nature is the same everywhere. The conclusions are general: if your business is of an intellectual nature (such as education, or software development), then you have (hopefully) hired your staff for a reason: they are not stupid. If they come to you with an idea of how to do something better, or why something should not be done at all
And if you do reject it, then tell them why. No-one likes being treated like an idiot or a child. Especially those who have been especially hired because they can think for themselves.
Oh, and most politics is petty, stupid, and stops any actual work getting done. But then, we knew that!
There are probably major themes in dad's thesis I've left out or misrepresented slightly, but that was the gist of it.
"This is a Hollywood movie: when it comes to the Laws of Physics, they're lucky if they get Gravity!" --- my wife
(and if you are actually interested in anything - I got Ph.D, nice cushy job that pays a lot, and I do not give a flying fuck about what I post. But you do, you little moron.. ;)
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Research in situations such as mine in academic institutions is very different from work elsewhere... you work usually by yourself and just with the higher ups (really, only the professor) and get a lot of work done, by yourself. Thus, there is a self achievement factor involved that motivates you, and a "I must do this so I can figure out if this works and I discover this" driving you to work. You are not slowed down because you are not dependant on other's (directly that is) so you know everything that is happening on your part of the project. Such factors motivate me and even allows me to not even worry about money, but just the work. Setting your hours is another plus, it is a very flexible environment really, and I would not mind research in my future (though, in a slightly more engineering field for myself).
Also, everyone in these workplaces, like academic instututions, are all smart (at least at Yale University); "management" is good and everyone is happy and is willing. What one can do about poor management is something I'm not sure about, without getting yourself fired that is. A new job in a different place/field may help, or getting the courage to do something radically differrent (be creative) may also help. Really, you need to find a job that you will like with management you will like and not move out of it once you find it... little idealistic, but it is possible. Maybe a company is simply not the workplace for you.
I also could have made the subject of this post, "Why I've been fired from every job I've ever had except my current one, but the day ain't over yet." I'm pretty young (23) and have been working mostly in the tech sector since the age of 18. I have come to the conclusion that most peope in power got there by knowing someone, not knowing something...I'm not knocking it, more power to you if you are willing to kiss some ass but it's just not for me. I could usually tell the end was near when a boss would make a suggestion and I would use less than ample tact in responding to his suggestion by saying that "that would make no sense" or "I don't really think you understand the problem that we are dealing with if that is the solution you are proposing." Anyway, your choice is, voice your opinion! There are basically three possibilities: 1) you sound like an ass when you confront your boss on something because you are more of a moron than he is. 2) you make a good point and your boss feels threatened by your better grasp of the situation. 3) you make a good point and your boss supports you. The first two are what is going to happen more often than not and that's how it goes. If you are willing to roll the dice you might one day land a job where your input actually matters and it makes a world of difference. I've never been unhappy with any job I've ever had, just because I always voiced my opinion and if they had a problem with it, go ahead and fire me. Obviously if you have obligations (kids/wife/mortgage/credit cards) you don't have the luxury of gambling with food money, but hopefully you don't have any of these anchors. Okay, this is more than I wanted to type...
As a student, I find a lot of the people that study to manage are not technical, and the technical students have a weak idea on how to manage. The solution to this issue is for tech workers to study management. I see a few ways to do this, such as dual degrees, going back to school, etc. But, I see, and hear, that it works most often like this: Tech worker is good, he becomes a manager. Or, good manager is told to manage high tech project. Either way, you have people doing something that they are really suited to do.
The software industry is very immature, and given that, the quality of management varies greatly because there are not enough people who have gone through both the engineering route and the management route to make effective middle and upper managers. That said, it will get better in the long run when engineers (yes - even slashdotters) have gone through the system and the small percentage of them decide that they want to manage and deal on a higher level.
This is a double edged sword however, since as the industry matures, the "fun" level of the projects will slowly bleed away as upper and middle managers (who are becoming more and more technically savvy) become more capable of creating tightly specified and scoped software. It will partially end the hacking mentality that we have today, for good or bad.
I had exactly the same problem at my last job (which I quit partly because of exactly this).
In that job, I ended up being the jack of all trades, running around and patching things up (not so much code, but design decisions, manager awareness, team skills, etc). And even though I put in a considerable amount of effort, the project still ended up slipping the dead line by a long shot (which was waaaaay too tight in the first place).
All throughout I constantly tried to look ahead and warn the project manager of dangers and difficulties that lay ahead that could endanger the project. Only to not be taken seriously, or simply being too late for management to be able to do something about.
To me it appears that management doesn't know the software development process very well. They expect things to be easy, quick, and impactless. Documentation is required, but no real time set aside for it. Design before coding is of course mandatory, but if we get any time at all that's a real surprise (in my experience). Getting the development environment set up with daily builds, automated regression test (and integration tests where possible) is given no attention. In my last project we were four weeks into the coding before we got a semi-working development environment. Go figure.
So well, my experience is that most project managers simply lack awareness of what is involved in a software development project.
One of my goals is to get around to writing a book; "The software development process explained" (or something) targeted directly at managers to help them get an understanding of what's involved and how it all interacts. And no, it won't be a tome, I'm hoping to keeping it to 2-300 pages, so a manager doesn't feel too intimidated by it.
As a bottom note, I am now employed doing second line global technical support, and while dealing with some customers can be quite frustrating and painful, the management here has a good idea of what they are doing. It makes a world of a difference. Even though I'm more or less on call 24/7, the stress levels are nowhere near what I had in my last development position.
I think that when you really look at the situation, the world around us changes so frequently, that the stuff we create rarely lasts more than a couple of years. So by the time you are finished thinking about a problem, the question has changed.
So hack away. The chances of any one of us writing something that will actually make a difference for any significant period of time is practically zero.
That might sound pessimistic, but I look at the software projects I've been on over the last seven years, and while all of them were the rage for about a year or two, something better came along and that was that.
I think this has more to do with the fact that the real players in this world (MS, Sun, IBM, Oracle etc...) neeed things to change often so they can continue the revenue stream. We are stuck following and never really leading.
Worse off is the fact that even if you wanted your stuff to work for more than a couple of years, the chances of support if soemthing is wrong with the infrastructure you depend on is not that good.
For example, I have in my office Installshield 2000. I upgraded my work PC to Windows 2000 about six months ago....I needed to load a Installshield project and guess what...Installshield 2000, purchased just 18 months ago, no longer works. I call support and they say it will cost me $250 for custom support because...and here is the kicker....my version of Installshield is sooo old! Its only 18 months old!!!
My advice is roll with it.
I'm still working on a clever footer.
I've been working for myself since 1989.
I always found it incredibly difficult to suffer the incompetence of "managers" who, more often than not, get paid far too much money to do far too little work -- at least that's what I thought.
Since becoming self-employed however, I have a much greater respect for the time, effort and skill required to "manage" a business.
In fact, I've deliberately kept my own operations small whenever possible so as to avoid getting caught in the inevitable drift towards management that occurs when you start expanding and employing others. I'd rather remain down and dirty at the coalface.
One unfortunate side-effect of being self-employed in a fast-moving and highly competitive industry is that you can find yourself working 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week.
I haven't had a vacation for over a decade and most years Christmas passed by almost without me noticing.
This type of thing is okay when you're young and you can survive on 4 hours sleep a night with a constant diet of Coke and pizza -- but I'm knocking on 50 now and it's getting bloody hard.
Sometimes I dream of retiring to become just another employee. Let someone else worry about paying my salary, keeping the overdraft topped up and filing endless government forms -- I'll just pop in for 8-9 hours a day and go fishing on the weekends.
If you're thinking of bitching about management, don't forget the old saying "never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
There are some real asshole managers out there -- but then again, there are also some real asshole employees.
If you're really ticked off -- break away and start your own corporation.
The problem with IT is there are two completely distinct types of manager.
Type 1 are the people who are trained to be managers. The problem with them is that they have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to the technology.
Type 2 are the techies who have been promoted up. They may have been forced, kicking and screaming, to go to an afternoon management seminar or two, but they ignored it anyway. The problem with them is that they have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to the management.
The Type 1s get employed because the Type 2s are so bad at managing. The Type 2s get employed because the Type 1s are so bad at understanding the issues.
In most other careers it is accepted that while you work your way up the ranks, you also go and get MBAs, take management classes, are judged on your demonstrated managerial abilities, etc. In IT it is accepted that you are one or the other and that's just the way the world is.
Fortunately there are a few Type 1s who at least try to learn and can also accept that there are some things that they don't understand and they ask the opinions of those who do. There are also a few Type 2s that realize IT management is screwed up and want to make it better so actually buy and, more amazingly, read books like the One Minute Manager, talk to other people from other industries about improving their abilities, etc. Unfortunately there aren't that many of either sub-group. Fortunately, that does seem to be changing.
Don't get me wrong, I largely agree with the comments that say, "You don't understand - management is a whole lot more complicated than you realize, you just don't see it all." But, while that is also true, it doesn't make the two "Types" issue any less real.
I have to agree; I work for a non-profit and while it doesn't solve everything, in general they _are_ better to work for. The managers are more humane, and there is more emphasis on solving the problem rather just slapping something together to hit a deadline. They are in it for the long haul and that makes a big difference.
But... there is a noticable reduction in the rate of pay. Can't have everything.
The major reason I've been able to contribute (along with our tech. coordinator) is because our administration is willing to let us take some risks and try some new things that we're excited about just to see how they work out. Usually we don't suggest anything we don't think we can't accomplish, and usually they don't let us do anything that's too risky or too expensive, but they've given us lots of room to explore. There's a level of trust involved at their level to make sure we don't completely screw things up, but they know there's a strong level of committment at our level to make sure those things don't screw up and continue to work.
Because of this, I've found my best experiences with administration (managment) have been with those who trust their subordinates because their subordinates can deliver. As soon as you have a breakdown on either side - where a manager doesn't trust you and won't listen to your suggestions because they've been burned before, or a subordinate gets more responsibility or trust than they can handle or deserver - the seed of doubt is planted and, in most cases, neither side will fully recover. Managers will always be more cautious, and oftentimes overly so, and employees will be less likely to contribute to something since they're just expecting to be disappointed anyway. It's a vicious cycle that requires true vision and leadership to break out of, and that's rare in any job.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. --Ghandi
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
Or at least that's my personal fantasy.
Anyway, my point is that if by "politics" you mean the fact that you have to deal with other people, some of whom are very different from you, and that it pays to be friends with as many of them as possible, and that it pays to understand the business imperatives of your company aside from just your narrow world of code, then you are very much correct.
When politics expands to include empty suits kissing each others asses and jerking each other off as they drive a company into the ground with nepotism and promoting their friends until the organization goes out of business at the expense of the truly competent, hardworking people who were there, then I disagree. That just shouldn't happen, in a company that is properly managed at the top levels and has accountability throughout the organization. This unfortunately seems rare.
Anyway, I'm doing contracting now because I *don't* like having a job.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
bad times.
I've become a big fan lately of Employee Stock Option Programs (ESOP). To quote:
An employee stock ownership plan (ESOP) is a type of tax-qualified employee benefit plan in which most or all of the assets are invested in stock of the employer. Like profit sharing and 401(k) plans, which are governed by many of the same laws, an ESOP generally must include at least all full-time employees meeting certain age and service requirements. Employees do not actually buy shares in an ESOP. Instead, the company contributes its own shares to the plan, contributes cash to buy its own stock (often from an existing owner), or, most commonly, has the plan borrow money to buy stock, with the company repaying the loan. All of these uses have significant tax benefits for the company, the employees, and the sellers. Employees gradually vest in their accounts and receive their benefits when they leave the company (although there may be distributions prior to that). Over 8 million employees in over 11,000 companies, mostly closely held, participate in ESOPs.
(From : http://www.nceo.org/library/how_to_choose.html)
The employees benefit through the growth of their company, the founders can leave without having to sell the whole thing at once to a large company, and the company itself gets a sizable tax break -- everyone wins.
"...you can steal my woman, but you ain't done nuthin' smart."
I think maybe you need to manage your anger or aggression a little better. There is nothing wrong with writing a post asking whether folks like their jobs.
I'll see you tomorrow at the office =)
What I really hate about jobs -- especially those in the IT field and especially those where product development is involved, is managers who are more procedure oriented than they are concerned about our project. They're the "can't see the forest for the trees" type people.
Most of the time they're so preoccupied with doing things by what the 'book' says, even when it's horribly inefficient and not suited for the specific task.
Most of the time managers who don't know what they're doing and those who come from managing non-IT backgrounds. Beleive it or not, HR in some companies will hire managers who have simply been trained to manage in any type of business -- be that retail, industrial, even restraunt! They have no clue what it takes to manage a group of programmers, how to descpline them, hire & fire, etc. Most don't even have a firm grasp of what it is the project is doing.
When faced in these types of situations, I have found you can do three things. The first would be to gradually take the place of the manager. Start to pick up things that the specific manager is doing rather poorly, out a "special respect" toward that manager. They'll think it's flattering -- while you'll be moving in on their turf. Pretty soon you can plead your case to HR once you have eliminated them completly, and they'll get fired while you move up a position and take command once and for all. Unfortunatly, many managers can sense this, although not all, so I would be cautious, as when they since their job is in jeopardy, yours will be soon.
The second is to ride the boat. If you don't care about your resume for this position or intend to simply blame it on management, here is a good option to relax and enjoy personal projects while realizing you're working on a project that will never come to be. It's a bit dishonest, but it pays.
The third is simply to find some place else to work. Do a combination of #2 while you look for a job.
Those here who say change your attitude simply have never worked with a really bad project manager. One who seemingly makes arbitrary decisions in development, and calls meetings to discuss the thing they heard about on the news called "P2P" and wonder how we can integrate it into our word processor. These managers need to have their position pulled right out from under them and put where their only concern is managing people, not a living project (e.g. a retail environment).
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
It's yet another chance for 33% of slashdot readers to brag about their awesome jobs and Aeron chairs, while 33% will post lamely Dilbert©-derived tripe about their not-so-awesome jobs and how management Just Doesn't Get It(TM), while the other remaining 34% will simply complain about not having a job to complain about.
~jeff
I doubt any of you are in big a quandary as I am. I am a nerd at heart and skills, but my career is one of a lawyer's.
I have had over three years of experience in law firms of various sorts (firstly in a small law firm, then for a large law firm, now as inhouse legal counsel kinda role) but I still keep in strong touch with technology.
What am I aiming for and how do I sell myself?
I am trying to sell myself to law firms who have large investments in technology. A lot of law firms here in Australia are very focused on technology and what competitive advantages they can offer.
I can also try to get a job with an IT firm that sell to law firms. Companies such as Keystone will be on my radar screen.
I have found that most employers have viewed my experience as very marketable and strong. The problem however is that with law firms, this is partly all talk and no action - so law firms don't necessarily want to hire someone like me and setup a separate role.
Anyway, back to your situation, surely you must have accrued some skills which will allow you to put your foot in the door of another career path? Think about that and how your skills as a software person can complement it well. Then sell it!
I didn't used to. But, I discovered that I didn't like any job I had. Never liked the managers, the work was always rushed, the hours were always too long, etc, etc, etc. Then I just chose to give up being resentful, frustrated, anxious and over-worked.
Now I'm satisfied with whatever I do. I stopped relating to the managers as morons (and foud out not all of them were), I stopped worrying about having priority or schedule changes (I just do the work as it comes), and I stopped working over time for them (now they appreciate me and I have a life).
If you go to work and expect to enjoy it, you probably will. If you go to work and expect to hate it, you definitely will. The choice is all yours!
To know that you know what you know, and that you do not know what you do not know, that is true wisdom. --Scooby Doo
>They manage a project, but not the people
You know, I wish I had it this good. The management where I work seems incapable of leading, they refuse to follow, and they just won't get out of the way.
They won't do the work (specifications, schedules) actually needed for project management, and they get offended if anyone else does it. You'd think they'd want the project to succeed, but they're too busy trying to make themselves not look superfluous to actually do anything.
It's tough, but these days we're all beggars and have to take what we can get.
After hating college, and leaving it for my first job, which turned out to be a near-total disaster (see my journal for more info), in October 2001 I got a job which I love. I'm doing PHP, Apache, sysadmin, all kinds of fun (to me, anyway) stuff for a very small company. The starting salary was, well, crappy, but last week I got a raise. It's still not quite where I'd like to be in terms of salary, but I don't think there's anything that can equal the feeling of wanting to get up in the morning, take the bus to the train and walk the 5 blocks to the office. My girlfriend had been harping on me about the pay, but gave up because I really enjoy the job. My boss is the CEO, and is a very shrewd businessman and also a very good boss. When I took the job I told him I already had U2 tickets so I'd need a day off to stand in line to get the good seats (I was inside the heart at the 2nd MSG show for anybody who saw this past tour) and he was totally understanding. More recently, my girlfriend's mother was diagnosed with lung cancer and he let me take 3 days off so we could fly down to Florida to visit her and bring her back to NY.
On anything technical, I am basically in charge. Everything from moving our server from one datacenter to another, to fixing the exchange server, to figuring out why Oracle is crashing, to redesigning the website for fastest download speed, my word is law basically. Despite my somewhat young age he treats me like an equal and a friend -- when I mentioned that the Dreamcast was now selling for $50 and I'd like to get one, he gave me his, complete with game and the gun thing.
The company is financially sound, the management (basically my boss) is more than competent, the benefits are great, and the pay will increase over time. So yeah, I love my job.
rooooar
I also have seen that in several companies now, and I've come to a conclusion that one major reason for it are mutually conflicting goals.
For a manager, the daily job is about profits and looking after ones career.
For a software engineer, it's actually more about self expression. Creative problem solving that is, or can be, closer to art than work.
There is a clear conflict there, and it's not easy at all to fit together such distant mentalities.
I don't know sure way how exactly to handle this, but I think one step to right direction is to abandon strict management-dictated specifications and accept more like an evolutionary approach for software design.
Open in-company genuine two-way communication might also help.
There are of course other reasons that I have witnessed that have contributed to unpleasant working environment, like egos too big to admit that there might be someone, like the customer, that actually might know better about the field in question. But overall I think the major reasons for unpleasant working conditions for software engineers are caused by too distant mentalities between the management and software engineers.
Have you been on those things lately? I figure close to 75 percent of all the jobs listed on Monster and Dice are body shops trying to fill their skills databases, and the other 25 percent are the same old job listings that have been there for MONTHS.
A clueless friend of mine keeps me "updated" on all of these great jobs that he keeps seeing on the boards, yet he fails to make the connection that the reason the same ones keep showing up is that the companies who post are either
- clueless on how to attract/retain quality employees,
- sold on this cool, new thing call the "web", or
- have no idea what they want and are fishing for answers
Either way, they're losers; why waste time with losers?Yeah, right.
I've had great bosses who've done nothing, bad bosses who live by the seat of their pants.
I LOVE my management team above me right now. They look at the short and long-term, they bide their time for the right opportunities and throw us all behind them and it pays off constantly.
They take responsibility for screwups, and work to make the team below them better at the same time. All in all, they're amazing. They deserve every penny they get paid and so do the rest of us.
How did we get to this point? Trial and error, lots of work, using our heads. Also that the management above my management makes things simple, they ask us to meet our numbers by any means necessary and leave our department to use our heads to figure out how.
I'm not saying we're invincible, I'm sure one of these days the company could go under, it happens. But right now we run a clean shop and almost everyone's happy.
These places do exist, but you generally have to use your own head and want to be part of a team instead of the cowboy (instead we all takes turns at being one).
Maybe it's that we're in Canada that helps this system, you be the judge.
I work for Microsoft. Unlike a lot of my peers in the same industry out there, I do not have to worry about whether there will be a job for me tomorrow or next year or 5 years from now.
Say what you will about MS, bash me if you want, but I'm laughing all the way to the bank with a brand new truck and about to purchase a $300,000 home.
God i love this company and I'm perfectly willing to devote 80 hour work weeks (much to my wife's dismay!) to it because the benefits are great.
"How many of you have had this problem in your career..."
I've had it at hardware companies.
"...and what did you do to adjust?"
I quit.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
People don't quit jobs -- they quit managers.
Can I borrow your soapbox for a minute? Thanks.
Fro the past 2 years I've had the opportunity to work for a "technical" manager. My boss can code right next to me in the office and hold his on with all the projects we work on. (Even though his office has a window) The real plus is he also knows how to handle both his technical and non-technical subordinates as a real manager should. He makes all the interactions between other groups in my company, and does it without sharpening his teeth on anyone's spine. So, any techie other there who feels smothered by their incompetent boss... make a run for the position yourself if you feel up to it.
I do love my job.
But I have learned to detach myself from the managers and the results that my work "should" produce.
I have programmed for over 13 years in a professional sense and come to realize that the work that I do, although I do very diligent work, much of what I program will never come to fruition or even be seen by more then me and my co-workers. I have lost sight of making a killer-app or even making an impact on any of the many industries that I have worked in. Most of my great work has been lost in miss-funded, under-funded projects, mismanaged projects, companies that go under before the product comes to market.... etc, etc.
I have not lost faith in my abilities by other's problems or misfortunes, I know that I can make a decent piece of code if needed, and meet deadlines, without sacrificing code quality, if needed, my work is still my own. Hell, toss off other's problems as their own and not yours, poor management is not a fault of the people below the managers, DUH!
Just work your ass off, like your job (or get another if you don't like programming) and in the meantime, do your own projects that you can at least have a REAL impact upon, and stop complaining about business, you can't change it (unless, of course you become...URG! a manager!)
heh.
http://www.codewolf.com - Just good stuff to waste time
You betcha. I'm about to do some paid work for a library net. Firwall config. Yippee. Not really detailed work, but it's amazing how far they are willing to go.
1) Free dinner and drinks and get acquainted with the project and my skills
2) More dinner and drinks to formalize a plan for the two hour config.
3) $100/hr (Canadian) on-site to deal with the actual syntax.
Gotta love those that don't move at the speed of stupidity.
I have a job working at a small private college. Sure, the pay is less than industry, but the environment is amazing. Actually enjoying your education might be a prereq however. ;)
In the first of my last two jobs, my direct report manager was excellent. Always on top of the situation, fully aware of what, why and how, never crowding but always there to lend a hand to get some issue moved out of my way (You rule Russ!
In my last job, the situation was considerably worse. None of my managers had a clue, no matter how goddamned often we'd explain it to them. Constant changes in focus caused by a dying business made it just about impossible to get any real projects done. I'd finish one project, then be told we would no longer need it and could I get started on this new thing right away?
In both cases, it is my opinion that the problems were always caused by management not taking software engineering seriously. These managers need to understand that the engineers and programmers are trying to do their jobs with diligence and focus, and that the success or failure of a project can control the fate of the entire company. It's that serious. It's never taken that seriously, at least so far in my experience.
"Avast! Prepare for the rodgering!" THWACK! "Arrr.. me nards.."
Is your job work? yes. and it sucks.
feints within feints, wheels within wheels
This only really applies to free software developers, but say you have a day job doing one thing, and by night (or weekend or what have you) you put time into a free programming project. Since you actually work two jobs, you could say either one is your "true" job.
It doesn't matter what your day job is. You could be a waiter or a pr0nstar or a programmer in a cubicle. If you enjoy your night job more, then consider that your true job. After all, your "job" is nothing more than simply doing your part in society. If you consider free software to be more of a calling than your day job, then so be it. It is even possible that your free software project is better for society. The downside is that it may not be the job that is bringing in the money, but it is your job nonetheless. Think about it this way: if you had to choose between losing your job or losing your free software project (the latter is sort of impossible, so lets just say that it disappears in a puff of smoke), which would you choose? Which is more important?
So before you tell your friend that your job sucks, or tell your uncle at the family party that you work at a dead-end computer job, why don't you say you work on free software instead? It's a much more enjoyable job, isn't it? It also reflects what you truly want to do, and because of the impact it makes, is a much better candidate to represent your place in society.
Anyway, I got into this discussion with one of my friends the other day. I am a free software developer, but I have not finished college, and my day job sucks. He said something along the lines of: "What do your parents think about this? Are they angry you have not aspired to more? What greater plans do you have?" And to that I answer: "Greater plans? I'm doing exactly what I want to do _right now_. How can it get any better? Maybe I can improve my day job, but my night job is where the fun is."
-Justin
A company's vision might boil down to this: Let's make product X, earn some good money in the process, and be happy. However, I learned the hard way that there are subtle but important differences in visions. In other words, a manager and a programmer might have similar but different visions and yet believe they actually do have the same. A manager's view *may* be tilted more towards money-making and will probably make decisions that might sacrifice a number of other things. A programmer *may* be tilted more towards the experience of creating a well-polished product in such a way that it might not be fully compatible with the boss' expectations. You may think that you both have the same vision, but are actually incompatible in the background.
So, yes, I did quit my job. I am both working on creating my own for-profit web site (something quite simple, actually), and looking to find a *complementary* job in the process. I've considered working for non-profit organizations, earn a bit of decent complementary money, and put my energies for good use in the process. Hell, let's do that.
I would say now is not the time to be asking questions like this. Be thankful you even have a job.
I have also worked at various government and commercial companies. It's the same everywhere. The worst problem seems to be lack of direction. I don't know how to fix it.
I am freaking sick and tired of all the "team training" BS that goes on. Management has had team training sessions at every single damn company I've worked at, usually they do it on some big "new wave" project. And the training is the same every time. Let me tell you, it doesn't do crap. It's the management that needs the training, not the peons. Man, that one thing pisses me off so much...
I think one major difference between managers at tech companies and those elsewhere is that at the tech companies they don't understand their domain. You can be an effective manager at Ford or Chrysler without knowing any automotive engineering, but same does not hold for a software company. The reason for this is that software is a new and evolving field. It needs to settle out before the managers can get a grasp on it, but in the meantime the domain keeps changing on a yearly basis.
The stereotypical software manager will want to use Windows, because that's all he knows. For some applications that's an appropriate choice, but for a great many is certainly is not. Where we work we build embedded realtime invasive medical diagnostic equipment. Management made the braindead decision to base all of our new products on a piece of medical workstation software developed at another division.
Another problem, whose source I haven't discovered, is the strange idea that you can create a quality software product in one or two years. Go look at any other industry and you'll see that it takes around five years to get a product from initial idea to the sales floor. Everyone in the automotive industry knows that new designs don't magically appear, but I've seen too many managers in software that think I can magically pull a feature out of my ass on a moment's notice.
These problems will go away, but I don't expect them to for another ten years at least. But there are companies that are on the ball. Some listen to their engineers. Some send their managers to software engineering classes. Some are in niches where the industry has settled down somewhat.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I won't be there for longer than a couple years. I work as a software technician for a company that develops wireless paging software. I'm currently at $11 an hour, but that's not enough for me to support my current lifesytle. I'm in the process of becoming A+ certified, and will be looking at picking up a couple other certifications as well. My purpose of the certifications is to gain some leverage come annual review time. My employer must decide if I get another raise, or if I stay at my current rate, or if they let me go because I'm too expensive.
I'm also getting the impression that my employer needs to find another direction to take the company in the wireless communications industry. Paging is on its way out and it appears that the next big thing in wireless is broadband wireless communications. Only thing that I can say is that I hope the company has a couple good ideas to capitalize on so it can stay alive.
You describe "management" as an issue, but you aren't specific. I can think of at least three things that the managerment should be doing that can be problems.
1) Process management - there's no excuse for a problem here. If the manager(s) don't understand the software development cycle, it's bad news.
2) People management - this is very much a personality issue. Some people are great at personal interaction, keeping up team morale, recognized personnel problems before they happen, etc. Others aren't. Depending on the situation, it can range from heaven to hell, with all variations in between.
3) Product management - this is the one where you have to give the most leeway. Yes, direction will change, after all, you are trying to sell something, and you've got to provide what the customers want and to do so, you're either anticipating their needs in advance, or trying to interpret them. If #1 and #2 are solid, you can live with some uncertainty here.
All that said, someone who's truly horrible in any of the categories above can do a lot of damage. If you're lucky, you get someone who's excellent in one category and can get by in the other two. Mostly, however, you get people who are just muddling along in all three.
...make the best of your own situation.
I've had serval jobs, with varying degrees of satisfaction. Sometimes the managers are very competant, sometimes they are clueless. Sometimes they realize that they are just cogs, and that nothing they do really matters. Sometimes they party with you after work.
What I've come to realize is that as long as you have a job in which you can get up in the morning and not DREAD going to work, you've pretty much got it made. If you like what you do, and can live comfortably on what you make, you're probably doing better than 90% of the rest of the world.
Some personal observations:
The larger the company, the greater the potential for lazy, incompetant, content individuals (right or wrong) that are just happy to go home at 5. Smaller companies, in my experience, lend themselves to more dedicated, enthusiastic employees.
Of course, your mileage might vary.
-J
I feel the same exact way as the person who posted this.
The reason most technology folks feel this way is because management folks are dumbasses. They may be smart when it comes to managing the billing department or the marketing department or shipping/recieving but they almost always fail when it comes to techies.
Here is why. Techies are smart people that know more then management does about technology. Management can't take the pressure from techies pushing them one way while their boss pushes another, and will lean toward whatever their boss wants. Or they are truly stupid and feel they know more about what direction technology should go, and the result is techies getting randomized. The only way to really solve this dilema is to have a CTO who really does know what he's talking about who can push and pull on the same level as everyone else in the company, that can work - I think.
It wouldn't be a problem if tech folks were dumb and didn't care about what they do. The fact that most of us really care about what we do and truly do know what is best for both ourselves and the company, is a real problem for management. I feel that I truly make decisions based upon the best interests of the company, but they never ever never do anything that I propose and always want to implement some stupid ass "solution" that will have to be tossed in 6 months.
It all boils down to management has to know when to just let the technology people make the decisions and they just worry about whether they can afford to do what they are asking for. If not, say so and let the trained professionals come up with another realistic solution, not just some stupid shit that doesn't make sense.
For these reasons I am returning to my role as a consultant. It's not a perfect career, but it allows me to distance myself from management. That's not true I still have to work with management types, just not directly for them. They call me up and say they need this that and the other, I deliver, they pay and I go on my merry way. You still have to deal with stupidity at some level, but at least you aren't totally enthralled in it and can just move on to the next customer.
I love consulting, it's the only way I can work in IT or software development. I tried everything else, and it's just apparent that I can't be happy working fulltime for one company. I like being called in to act like the hero or the expert and people actually listen to what I have to say and take me seriously, because they see my bill and go, "See, he's smart because he has letterhead." It's just a different role and allows you to approach the same problem, but from a different perspective and a totally different attitude.
The only problem is now I have to market myself and sell my services, life's little challenges are what makes things interesting.
LoRider
I have had the exact same experiences, and I have set out to start my own company. This and about two years of consulting have insulated me from the apathy and disdain that made technology the thing I hated most. Now, it is fun again, because my mistakes are mine, as are my successes.
In my 8 years in silicon valley, I decided that about 50% of the people there were coasting through on their friends or connections and got money for a smile and a hand shake. Another 25% were non-technical, but really knew what was going on, and the other 25% were those of us who were doing the heavy lifting, so to speak. I was lucky here and there and worked for people in that capable 50% (with technical and non-technical, capable people) here and there, and it definitely makes a difference.
As for managing software projects, I submit (especially after seeing parts of Project Greenlight on HBO) that software (and to some extent, hardware) development and project management are not far from trying to make a movie. You have a difficult schedule, lots of things have to line up when they don't necessarily want to, sometimes not everyone is on the same page, the director has to deal with various personalities which all don't mesh well, and in the end an awful lot of movies flop miserably when they come out, possibly because these and other factors were not brought together correctly (make the script equal the spec and the marketing plan)... they rarely do point releases, though, while we do.
The impossible, but useful bridge is the so-called "working manager," where the person in charge of stuff actually sits down and codes, or at least builds code, while mired in other tasks, so that the process is understood from within, not without. I say impossible because people who want to "work" and manage and who do it well are difficult to find, and those that can do it have a short lifespan. I don't think the movie analogy carries over that far, but maybe it does.
So how would a software project run by James Cameron come out? Would a project run by M. Night Shyamalan be going along fine and suddenly freak everybody out at the end? Would George Lucas make action figures out of the developers?
Politics is just good common sense.
Imagine walking into a computer store with no idea of what you want or what the different technologies are. You walk up the salesman and say, "I want a good computer." You'll walk out paying twice as much as you need to, and probably not getting what you need, right?
Same goes for dealing with people. If you don't know what they want, what they value, and what you can get away with, you're likely to get screwed. I've seen perfectly intelligent techies blatantly insult their bosses (and bosses' boss) because they didn't understand who stood where on the issues. And other stupid mistakes just as bad.
And politics, irritating as it might be, is the way to not make stupid mistakes when dealing with people. To negotiate from a position of knowledge rather than a position of ignorance.
-Esme
Someone actually has a job, i got laid off in September, I would take just about anything now. Maybe even tech support.
it's a sig, wtf?
I've been working for twenty five years for people that I wouldn't trust to know which end of a [expletive deleted] to suck.
I have come to the realization that the ONLY people I ever worked for who had a clue as to what management is about, what projects are about and what the deliverable was supposed to be were in the military.
Not that they were all that great but you could count on them not to try to 'fix' the steering on truck while its careening around a curve and heading for a cliff.
That's why a military toilet seat costs six hundred bucks. Because you can at least be sure that your ass will fit, that its over a latrine and that it will have a hole in it.
With civilian (mis-)management, they'd skip cutting out the hole and justify it as cutting out the cost. And there'd be shit everywhere.
Read "systemantics." It'll clue you in on why things are so screwed up. It won't help a damn but at least you'll know why you're getting reamed.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I often find myself scanning the want ads for Long Haul Trucking positions, and getting out of this crazy software business...
While I cannot begin to comprehend your individual situation here are some of the lessons I have learned in my rather limited experiences.
First of all, remember that what you see your manager doing is not all that he does. One of the best flinstones episodes is the one where Fred has a dream that he becomes Mr. Slate for the day and realizes that the boss doesn't have it easier. While it doesn't seem like he cares, he probably has his boss breathing down his neck to cut costs and increase output.
Next, it is important to realize that good managment is one of the most difficult things to do. Especially in technology, where a balance between technical knowledge, and people skills are both crucial to getting the job done. Most people are good at one or the other but not both. While niether of these tips can make your bosses better, they might make you feel better about it. Additionally, technical people are generally very sure of their own correctness, which turns off most non-technical people.
On a final note, it might pay to learn a little psycology. Next time you are at the bookstore, look at some of the titles that cover relationships. These can be very useful, whether or not they are specifically written for business relationships. A good one will help you recognise how to better communicate with your manager, understand why they do what they do, and might even improve your relationship with wife/significant other (which certainly makes all of your life more rewarding. Hope some of the tips help.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Both teams provided visibility on what they were doing to the execs, so the execs only had to step into the details when they thought that there was a problem. This way, the execs could treat the various departments more like black box units, and deal more with steering the ship.
It helped that the engineers were all good friends and the head of marketing for the project was smart AND reasonable....
Why is Grand Theft Auto a much more serious crime than Reckless Driving?
All computer jobs are like this. Having worked in nearly every aspect of computing, I have come to the conclusion that for me, simply working the job and getting paid is not enough. I need the satisfaction of at least knowing that if something gets thrown out, it's because I threw it out, not because management is "bad" (and by bad I mean terrible).
stuff |
"I find myself putting all my energy, both mental and emotional, into a project only to be disappointed by decisions made by management."
I have a little saying I like to use in meetings or with co-workers who are taking things too seriously: "we're not curing cancer here". (needless to say, I'm not working in cancer research). Work is work - it's something I do to pay my rent, keep food on the table, and support my other interests. If you find yourself putting all your emotional energy into work, you should seriously re-evaluate the priorities in your life. I am fortunate in that I generally like what I do, but I will not drain myself emotionally for any job - the sum of money required to turn me into an emotional wreck far exceeds the market's willingness to compensate me.
--Gus
"You don't have to become Machiavelli and you don't have to stab backs."
Machiavelli has nothing to do with stabbing backs or being an asshole. If anybody ever takes the time to read and understand "The Prince", they would understand that it outlines common archtypes(sp) of people, how they can be dealt with, and how to switch power from them to you. It's to politics (personal and otherwise) what "The Ancient Art of War" is to battle (both physical, mental, and emotional).
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I hunker down and code most of the time, plan stuff, and handle inevitable admin tasks. I have another IT guy I've worked with before coming on board soon to handle networking and tech support. My budget is whatever I need, within reason. I'm a tightwad - most-bang-for-the-buck kinda guy, but if I need to spend $20,000 I can. It's nice.
While I made a good living for rural Louisiana, I'm not driving a Porsche or anything. I make about half of what I could make in a major metro. But I work 45 minutes from my home town, telecommute a day a week, have deep local roots, and get to hang out with my friends and have a life. Don't mean to rub it in, but life is great.
God don't let me fuck this up!
Be glad you have a job that pays reasonably well.
If you're a man, you do what you gotta do to provide for your family.
Quit your bitching, suck it up, and try to make things better yourself instead of complaining like a little baby about stuff that doesn't even matter.
The first order of Business is Communication. If you haven't or can't institute a forum for solving the problems with your co-employees then no amount of outside information is going to help. Solve for the Syntax and open the necessary lines of communication, then identify everyone's perogatives and obligations. Figure out who, if anyone holds the trump cards and see if their amenable to an acceptable solution. Get on with it.
heuristic algorithm seeks stochastic relationship
I'm in college in MO (3rd year there) and work for a local Catholic School maintaining their computers. There are lot's of computer problems to deal with, but I really look forward to going to work because of the people.
People really make or break a job (and life), in my little pursuit of happiness my family, girlfriend, friends and co-workers all make life a joy. Without them things wouldn't be nearly so bright. Working with good people can turn a bad job into a fun experience, and not-so-good people can turn a great job into something you dread.
The next time your bummed at work, be thankful and please appreciate the good folks and try to help the other folks see the bright side of things. I have to say the absolute best part of my job is helping kids, they are so amazing! I was showing a class the inside of a PC and answering their questions, before long we were talking about supercomputers and Deep Blue. Next I had a sweet little kid ask me, "are there brother-boards in computers?" after I had told them about the motherboard. I am astounded by people and the potential we all have.
We are all very fortunate to be alive in this amazing world, let's try to appreciate it and do our best to keep it wonderful for our future generations.
What's your story?
There has been a paradigm shift that has taken place the past few years. Most companies now consider employees liabilities instead of assets. Automation has replaced many jobs. Many companies simply do with fewer employees by making the ones left work harder and longer and having them do multiple jobs. People are commodities now. What's really amazing is that companies demand loyalty from their employees, but it's seldom returned by them. The irony is that most employees are now against unions...yet it was unions that got many employees a decent living wage and better working conditions..and now both are dropping at an alarming rate.
Those who can't do tend to teach/lead. A corollary to this fact is that if we follow too close, we all fall into the ditch together. I don't mind the work I'm given. The processes we are measured by (ie SLAs, projected dates met for projects, etc) doesn't accomodate for team members measurement making them appear as though they are lazy bums. We lose one person to a competitor, they give the complimentary 2-week notice and my management takes 4 to 6 months to justify even having the position the individual held. Meanwhile, the SLA is going to hell in hand-basket with only a few people left in the team. They are stressed out from going to "pep- talk" meetings about working smarter . . . requested to work at 200% with fully documentable work performed . . . the ever tightening budget forces us to abandon even the most rudamentary office supplies: pens and paper. I have become a clepto stealing pens without even knowing I'm doing it. My co-worker hordes his supplies in a 1962 filing cabinet with a makeshift padlock system (I think I know where he hides the key). The entire building got recarpeted except . . you guessed it . . the I.T. dept. Tiles are coming loose from the floor and our storage area has the relative temperature of the outdoors. I swear the critters that share the wonderful space we call "The Hell Hole" aren't paying rent. I believe we have some pigeons in the area by the frequent disgruntled blanket of poo covering the boxes. I guess that would be the lack of REAL windows barring the elements and wild from coming in. Oh, did I fail to mention that our little storage room houses the only fire extinguisher for that building? Also, it has the only access to the breaker panels. It was a wonderful time to get written up for several safety violations. Who could miss the boxes stacked to the ceiling in the hall causing the fire marshal to frown? I can't complain, I still got my hair I suppose. We have complained, written requests and it just falls on deaf ears. You know, I should ask the earlier poster about a job with the garbage crew.
I do the best I know how, and try to please the people that do that in return...all with a constant and thick coat of CYA.
Remember, when you leave any job, whether it's milking cows or bilking investors, the only one that will tell you 'good job' and mean it, is you, and the only thing you take with you that counts is your self-esteem. Fight as needed to keep that much intact.
I've worked in a couple industries and the jobs sucked. I work for a large IT consulting company and I must say its the best job I've ever had. The priorities of the company are to grow, yet there are many considerations given to taking care of the consultants. Sure, it doesn't pay as well as being independent, but they help me plan my goals better than I could myself and they've actually reacted to some concerns that I've had.
The complaint you have is exactly what _most_ management is like. Mangagers are there to make sure things go well today. They are great at getting things done their way quickly (this is a why they are managers). Im not a programmer, but i realise that programmers have to make a complex operation (ever try explaining _each_ detail of *why* you were late to work?;) into a coherent picture _and_ get a non slack jawed response? I'd say the best solution is to become a consultant/contractual business owner. YOU can take the projects that suit you best AND tell companies YOUR schedule. Please dont whine and cry about how hard it is to run a business, cause its just as hard to go to work:) May your fingers be strong, and your code ever vigilant.
Companies seem to be getting worse, they employ only positive thinking managers ie yes men (or women) the result is no real thought process takes place.......
enjoy
:]
Thing
Part of of the philosophy if (mis-)management is to ONLY give you as much information as some ignorant fool thinks you need to do your job.
Since they don't have to do it, they feel that things like knowing WTF you're supposed to be doing and how you're supposed to be doing it is not important. You don't need to know that.
Of course they then get pissed off that you couldn't read their minds afterwards.
But NEVER quit! NEVER! Even if they offer to let you or get really disagreeable at a meeting.
Quit and you're kissing your unemployment cheques goodbye. That's something they DON'T tell you while they're berating you. That's a lesson for experience. And a fuckin' bitter one at that.
Get nasty. Go Postal on their asses. Get fired for being a total prick but DON'T EFFIN' QUIT.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
... you manager doesnt fill a high end DBA position with someone who's first question to you is "What's a database?"
you cant be a troll when talking about tech management. its like a m$oft discussion only even more personal...
four-oh-four
Libral Arts graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
Computer Science graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
History graduates are not supposed to manage people, nor do they have the proper education to do so.
These are ridiculous generalizations that have absolutely no bearing in the "real world". Check out the backgrounds of the great corporate leaders of the last half-century. Read "Good to Great" or another book that describes their qualities.
Where they all "commerce graduates"? Was there an engineer in there? An arts grad? How did that happen? They weren't "supposed" to be there?
You are taking a deterministic approach that says the degree you choose when you are seventeen determines if you ever have the capacity to lead. How absurd.
I was in the same boat so I know what you are going through. I was doing everything from determining how things are buing built from getting the freeking Finance and HR dept to do their job and get their crap together.
I now am managing and not coding so at least I was in the pits and understand and try to convay this to the other managers. The biggest thing we have done, is create Core teams around our projects and there are members from Test, OPS, and devel so that everyone can discuss and plan new versions, bug fixes, etc. It helped to see all the views from the effected areas.
This really has helped because we were out of control and just waiting to burn up. If we didn't setup these Core Teams, the company would have probably bellied up by now. Software Development/Managing it is a beast, especially if you try to win customers by doing everything they ask. Things get dumped and new things arrive yesterday, it is just the nature and it sucks. You have to move and move quickly or you are done.
Anyway, it is tough. If you don't have some strong managers in other dept or groups, you should move on. Eventually, you are going to go nuts trying to do everything because you can't. There is way too much to think and take care of and if you try, more holes will surface.
Good luck.
Of course I love my job. Where else could I spend so much time on Slashdot?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I have worked for 2 companies now that exhibit those same symptoms. The first one was started during the .com boom by two "programmers" (I really doubt that one of them ever wrote a good line of code in his life) that thought they could run a business. It failed miserably due to obvious violations of the Peter principle.
My current employer seems to be run by smarter individuals who are (apparently) trying to do the right thing and deliver quality products to their clients. However they seem to have the same problems described in the original post. The managers are disconnected, end up putting out a Q&D product that you support (for free of course) for many months after delivery, yadda^3.
I think a lot of the "agile software development practices" are being tossed about to explain how software REALLY gets written. I've also seen a lot of the "processes will save us" syndrome exhibited by managers. Once things start going bad, the cry goes up "we need a process to manage our software development". They think that by labeling certain stages as "requirement gathering" and "testing" that this will somehow prevent the client from trying to squeeze every ounce of use out of us for their dollar that they can. They don't know what the devs are doing, so they try to label points of the process to help them understand, and convey to the client, what the devs are doing exactly in the hope that this will make the client happy (and coincidentally justify their jobs).
You have to remember that most of the managers didn't get to be managers because of their excellent management processes, but by being the best ass-kisser at the company or by hanging on long enough to require the company to either promote them or fire them.
Often it's not the manager directly above you that's to blame, mis-management starts at the top.
"For a successful technology, honesty must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled." -Feynman
It's also hard to manage people, work with customers and even when you do all the right things it doesn't always come out right (Apple vs. Microsoft vs. Amiga).
It' also hard to stay current e.g., buggy whips and wooden airplanes.
Plus basically most people have some level of disfunction (mentally) all minor stuff for the most part, but when you put all of that together in a single company letting their disfunction hang out...
That's my two cents...
http://www.hawknest.com/
Hi there.
Your post has all the classic elements of the "I have no power, the world is spinning out of control and I'm along for the ride" complaint which people seem to enjoy.
Perhaps the best thing you can do is to understand that you are in control of your own destiny, and to take charge of it.
To give you a work-related example, I tend to do the same basic job day-in, day-out. I used to have to code for each specific case, and it was a royal PITA. Eventually, I got so fed up with that, I decided that I would throw a solution together which didn't require me to do custom coding; instead, I would simply reconfigure the one program to suit the problem.
Nobody told me to do that; nobody really expected me to do that. However, now I've shared that little tool with others in my company, and everyone loves it because it reduces their tedious workload too.
Self-empowerment is a good thing.
I worked at a company for seven years, and in that time I knew who to call for help without going through a chain of command. I also knew the systems better than management, usually because I wrote them, and so managers generally trusted my work. Mostly I did whatever development I thought was important without consulting management too much. Management would tell me what they wanted the systems to do, and I would make it happen when it was reasonable and talk them out of it when it was not. I got a lot of really good work done.
I also argued with management many times, butting heads with people who wanted things done poorly. Sometimes I acquiesced and later fixed the system, and other times I kept at it until we found a good compromise. I was eventually laid off when the company was acquired, and I am sure I was selected for lay off because I was contentious with management.
But I have no regrets.
I propose that most managers didn't set out to be managers. They were probably geeks just like the rest of us who wish they could do more geeking on a daily basis.
If not geeking, they most likely had other interests that != managing.
Disatisfaction w/ job requirements inevitably turns into poor job performance.
Become a manager and discover why they make the decisions they do. You will also learn they are saying the same thing about the management above them. Also the joy of managing people like yourself who know it all from the view from their cube. Not all managers are good, but in general most are okay, and few are really good. Maybe you should just ask nicely why decision was made the way it was. If lucky you'll learn when decisons are made on merit or for politics.
I read a Cutter article the other day that said something like the following:
>
> approaches. For example, it may be necessary
> to tell the business that IT cannot meet all of
> the commitments it has made, but it wants to
> meet the top three or four. If -- and this can
> be a big "if" -- the business will at least
> identify its top three or four needs, then IT
> must meet its commitments. As the first
> commitments are met, the next most important
> are addressed, and they too must be met. This
> is the only way to build a record of success
> that can anchor a better business-IT
> relationship
Interestingly, this is similar to the approach taken by XP in matching requirements to functionality over a fixed release cycle.
This observation has lead me to a new idea that I am tossing around which I am calling "Extreme Management".
XM Key Features:
- "Extreme(ly) Testing"
The patience of engineering staff is tested
time and time again as clueless techno-
philistine managers argue the toss over such
business-critical issues as:
- "Is my data interchange format XML?"
- "You should be using Sybase tables as a
persistent message store!"
- "That's easy - it's just a matter of
turning on replication."
- "Messaging! Rubbish, what's wrong with
FTP?"
- "You Aren't Going to Need It (YAGTNI-tm)"
Strategy? What strategy? We don't need no
stinkin' strategy!"
- "Continuous Reorganisation"
Bored? Have a meeting? Better still,
reorganise your team, group or even division!
It's easy if you follow these 4 simple steps:
Step 1: Create new, sexy acronyms for your
team, group or division
Step 2: Move people around, preferably
between buildings and floors
Step 3: Reduce available employee desk space,
particularly for support and
infrastructure staff (ie those with
the most kit)
Step 4: Watch that bonus figure climb!
So, get an XM programme working in your team today!
You should go around your office with a piece of paper and pen and get everyone to sign up for your good management petition. Make sure to get everyone to sign including your boss, because ... hey, everyone likes good management!
... q-u-i-t
After you got everyone to sign it hand it into HR and notifiy them of your requests. Then they can place a job posting on monster.com looking for "really good managers". Surely all the world's top execs will be lining up to land a sweet position managing a whiny sod such as yourself.
seriously
Start your own software company or go sell hemp necklaces down by the beach.
- Do your part to help conserve disk space, shorten your si
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that--its called Everybody and they meet at the bar." --Drew Carey
You probably say "Duh! Tell me something I don't know!", but the important thing in this statement is to define what office politics is. My definition:
Office Politics: Occurs when a portion of a company, be it a division, team, or single individual, competes actively against another portion of the same company instead of working for the good of the company.
Think about it. You and the people you work with are supposed to be on the same team, working towards the same goal. As long as this is the case (the situation with my currect job), work is great, exciting, and productive. When this is not the case (e.g., divisional infighting, backstabbing, etc...) things start to unravel. Why? Because now people have to waste their time defending themselves against the people they work with, efficiency drops and production shrinks to next to nothing.
How does this happen? I've witnessed the following reasons, in no particular order (there may be other reasons I have not witnessed):
This happened where I currently work. Team A decided that it would secretly create software exactly like what Team B (my team) was working on. They decided they could do it better. Team A got away with it for a few months (that's a few months of wasted resources), until the VP noticed and said "what the hell do you think you are doing?" Team A no longer works for the company. This also happened at my previous employer, except that Team A was not kept under control. The resulting conflict led to the mass resignation of most of the developers in Team B.
These are all related. If left long enough (1) becomes (2), which will eventually lead to (3). I personally am lucky enough to work for a company which does not suffer from (2) or (3), and is taking steps to correct (1).
OK, I've rambled for long enough. Thanks for reading this far.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
Are you serious? Get a grip. Upper management doesn't care about technology; they care about winning, and the only reason you have a job is because your work supports (in some small or large way, more or less directly) the strategic objectives of the owners of your company. It's very possible that upper management likes you personally, but that's irrelevant -- if they could succeed as a business without having to pay your salary, they would.
"I'm shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on in here." - Capt. Louis Renault, _Casablanca_ Ummm...sorry, that's life. I recommend drinking and memorizing the movie "Office Space" (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0151804). Also "Swimming with Sharks" (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0114594) and "A Shock to the System" (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0100602). Quite seriously, I often recommend these movies to the younger folks in our groups in the hope that each succeeding generation will be somewhat less clueless and creepy. No joy so far, but hope springs eternal. Check 'em out. After all, it's not like we lives. -"Bob #2"
is to prevent the over accumilation of profit, the overuse of efficient processes and methods and the escape from any sort of results oriented approach at business. Work ethic was not seen as a major threat here, since it would automatically go out with efficiency and desire to have good results. Don't feel bad. They simply have no job skills (nor any other skills that make them usefull) so be proud that you support them with your intra-organizational welfare state. After all, if they actually performed a vital task, then they might be seen as unnecesary by THEIR management.
OK unlike most here, I'm just an old fart now. Where I once thought my job was so fantastic, I would have payed my employer for the opportunity of my job and work environment. Now I've seen so many reorganizations, mergers, upper management visions (Do they seriously expect me to yet again convert to they're latest religion?), that I wish instead of my current career, I had become a pirate, or maybe a fire engine.
The fact of the matter is that there are some great processes and methodologies out there for managing software projects that have been PROVEN repeatedly to deliver good software. The problem isn't the management process, its the complete MORONS we usually end up have doing the managing.
In EVERY company I've worked at (including some of the BIG name consulting ones) we are always told to follow the standard company methodology for software delivery. You know what the first thing that goes out the window when the client sees the time/cost projections for doing it the standard methodology based way is? You got it! Bye-bye methodology, do it seat of the pants, no planning, get it the F out the door yesterday... And in EVERY case, the project has ended up being late, over budget and in several cases completely useless to the client due to horrible client expectation management, lack of signoffs and no proper documented and signed off requirements.
The vast majority of the time, marketing people with no understanding of how software is built become the driving force behind software projects. The managers simply are front men and in-betweens to keep us engineers from choking the life out of the marketing guys.
Also, consider that the vast majority of the people who manage software projects have NEVER written a line of code, or if they have, it was so long ago that their experience is useless. They don't understand nor believe in the proven software engineering methodologies. They don't understand why we need time to design upfront and stick to the design.
The BEST project manager I ever had was a lady who very bluntly stated upfront that she knew absolutely nothing about software development. Whenever she was in a meeting and she was asked for a time/cost estimate for part of a project, she would (WISELY) say "I'll get that from the engineering team." She would then take whatever number we gave her, even if it was already padded, and pad it with an additional 20%. She knew not to get into design discussions without the engineers there to provide input and problem solving skills backed up with product knowledge.
Not enough managers do this. They all see "I have to deliver this project and why aren't my people coding?" The sales guys all think "I have to make my quota, why the heck aren't these guys playing ball and coding?"
Basically, until software engineering is made a true engineering discipline and clients require that a certified software engineer signs off on any project/product that is delivered, we're going to continue to work like dogs, be treated like dogs, and have management let us down.
--Mike
When I got out of college I had a hard time transitioning to the real world. Sure I was technically doing a job I liked and was good at, but I hated my job. I realized it was because I didn't really get along with the people I worked with, either because of attitude, management style, ineptness, etc. No matter how much I liked the actual work, the people I worked with somehow turned me off.
Then I realized why it was so hard for me at first. When I was in school, I spent most of my time w/ my friends. I chose my friends. We could do anything and have fun. When I joined the real world, I spent most of my time w/ people that I would never become friends with, nor want to even associate with outside of work.
I also remember thinking back to a time in High School when I worked at a major resort in the laundry room. The job itself was crap, but the reason I took it was because a few of my friends worked in the same place. I did this for two summers and it was a total blast.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that people tend to put a lot of emphasis on "what" they're doing and not as much on "who" they're doing it with. I've come to realize over the years it's really the "who" that matters more (at least to me anyway). I'd pretty much take any job if I could work with a lot of people I get along with and actually want to hang out with, both in and out of work.
But then again, different people have different priorities in their jobs. Mine is just to have fun, and that usually starts with the people I interact with every single day, moreso than it is what I'm actually doing that day.
>Machiavelli has nothing to do with stabbing backs or being an asshole.
You are correct.
Looks like I wasn't very clear. A better way to put it:
We don't need to be as insightful as Machiavelli nor as ruthless as the back-stabbers.
But I start a new job next week!
I work as what's commonly called a "cage monkey" at Exodus Communications (Oh, I'm sorry, I mean "Exodus, a Service of Cable & Wireless"). The second greatest day of my employment there was when I turned in my resignation. The best day will be tomorrow when I leave for good.
My job is so boring that it practically kills me. Me and my coworkers get no respect. The management chain is like a barrel of monkeys. The list goes on, but I am just glad to say that it's almost over!
I've moved on to do tech work for a company that is not a tech company. I hope it works out.
"The only way to learn a new programming language is by writing programs in it." - Brian Kernighan
of course you hate your job. of course you hate your managers. of course you'd rather be doing something else.
now shut up and get back to work!
-- the management
The blame game is a sign of deep problems. I've never understood why it's better to blame someone than solve the problem at hand. Sure, you can't fix everything. But the ones who are always pointing fingers are usually the root of the problem at hand.
That is all that there is to it. That is natural selection. If you are encouraged to not care, then do it, or go elsewhere.
That hurts, but it is what I have had to do in many instances. Even if it is temporary while you can find a new job, it is necessary. Otherwise, you are just going to end up hurting instead of the project that is being badly mismanaged.
You are not being paid to be a martyr, are you?
Is it the stress? Is it the interpersonal conflicts? Is it the impotent feeling when you're halted at every turn? Is it perhaps that you don't feel you are contributing or even allowed to contribute to the Good of Humanity?
Now that you've identified exactly what your main beef is, and what specific event is causing you unhappiness, you decide your course appropriately... Since life's never perfect, with every relationship you get into (business, personal, etc) you have to decide what you're willing to put up with for what you get out of it. Then, how you deal with any given situation is entirely up to your limits.
I mean, when you get right down to it, you really only have three options:
So, for example, say that you make a perfectly valid and technically sound solution to an old problem at work. Management tells you that they don't want to expend the effort, so they tell you to just concentrate on maintaining the old, buggy, solution. You realize this effective dissing is your main problem with work because it makes you feel underappreciated. Whether management is right or not is not the issue... they could be dead wrong, or there could be external circumstances which make them 'right' -- it doesn't matter. All that matters is if you are willing to put up with this on a consistent basis. Like I said, it all comes down to what you are willing to put up with.
The really nice thing about this sort of introspection is that it can often illuminate flaws in your thinking, and flaws in how you emotionally react to events in your life. You might think you're miserable at your job for one reason, when it turns out it's an entirely different thing that's causing your unhappiness.
If this sort of thinking lifestyle appeals to you, check out Feeling Good , by Dr. David Burns. It's kind of a handbook for cognitive behavioral therapy which is based on these types of concepts. Really interesting stuff.
Anyway, hope this helps.
- Jonathan
Firs off, I'm assuming that this is a software development project. If not then I'm sure the same questions will apply.
Is the direction constantly changing because the problem that you are trying to solve was not completely defined?
Are you developing solution and looking for the problem?
Are the "Quick and Dirty" solutions a result of a design change (you do have a design.. right)?
Does "it seem like management at this company is just winging it" because they are trying to do anything they can to keep the contract so they can keep you and others employed?
The best managers I've had are ex-techies that get the big picture. They know the difficulties of building a solution. But sometimes things change and they are forced to make decisions that may seem stupid to people that don't have the information that they do. A good manager will let the team in on the information and at times say "this may seem stupid but here is why we are doing this". I'm lucky that I work in an environment where the whole team can provide input to the project. Don't jump to the conclusion that the managers are clueless.
Zoid.com
To me, this sentence is quite telling. What's going on here is two mistaken assumptions. Your manager incorrectly assumes that you are not a thinking, feeling being who cares about anything. You incorrectly assume that your manager does perceive you as a thinking, feeling being.
At NASA, you probably ran into some fine managers. They probably acted as mentors to less experienced folks, and could interact with almost anybody with a high degree of compassion. You'll probably find that, uniformly, these were people with strong technical backgrounds, which inclined them to connect in a human way with their subordinates, who also had technical backgrounds.
Non-technical managers come to the engineering world not for intellectual stimulation, but because there is money to be made. To them, you are a means to an end, and a necessary evil they'd prefer to do without. They are uncomfortable with technology, and they resent you for being comfortable with it. They would prefer to think of you as an appliance. They don't want your thoughts, input, or passion. They want your behavior to be predictable, and ideally controllable.
What do you get in compensation? You get to avoid a bunch of activities that you would probably not enjoy. You don't need to put together a sales pitch for the technology you make, and you don't need to entertain and suck up to a bunch of potential customers, most of whom will disappear without providing a dime of revenue. You don't need to keep the supply cabinet stocked, or make sure everybody has their medical benefits and their W2 form.
What compensation do the managers get for the unpleasant world they live in? They stand close to the portal whereby money enters the company. When money comes in, they're the ones who get to decide how much goes to whom.
how can I feel good about the work I'm doing if I don't have confidence in my management?
Start by being objective about your situation. I've described some unpleasant experiences I've had in the past, but discard whatever doesn't apply to your own situation. Discriminate between the situation itself, and your own wishes and thoughts about it: your curiosity, your urge to contribute and be recognized, your craving for a sense of belonging, all that stuff. There isn't a magic formula for happiness, but if you can recognize the mechanisms at work, you have a better shot at it.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
my best manager ever:
total business vision
no code/implementation vision
knew it
trusted me
kept my grounded
told me "good job," or "try again."
I'm currently an intern at a telecommunications that competes with MaBell. I must say, it is a great opportunity!
I get to format computer HDDs and stick Linux on them to be set up as Linux servers for useful things like SIP (VoIP stuff) and creating web servers. I've learn a ton of stuff about Linux and what's better is I get paid $9/hr! It's like paid training! Of course I do administer Windows2k Servers, but it's still good to learn other OSes. Also I get other benefits like free 2.7mbit DSL with 5 static IPs, and two domain names.
I have only four complaints. First of all, I take it for granted all the time, and I need to realize that I'm truly lucky. Second, things can be a bit disorganized and the boss just wants things done, fast. Third, security isn't really big deal to them, but I think it is, of course this goes back to them just wanting things done. Finally, since it's a telecommunications company I have dealt with many co-workers getting laid off and it sucks. It sucks seeing hard working adults with families having to leave their jobs, while I'm still here and I don't *need* the job. What's worse, is that I've also gotten a job offer from another company (that I now also work with) that deals with wireless internet access.
It's crazy having all these opportunities at 17, I just hope they're still here in the future. Of course I'm careful with my money (cheap) and I've saved most of my money that I've made. Unfortunately because of this (at least I think so) I don't have a girlfriend or a car (I'll wait.)
So to keep this post ontopic, I would say I love my job (internship) and I agree management can be a pain in the ass if they don't know what they're doing, don't take input from workers, and become nazis. Basically, you should have the proper qualifications for the job.
Read a book called "Who moved my Cheese?"
Very insightful.
second place?
second place is a set of steak knives.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
I have to say that I like my job... then again, my boss/supervisor and the guy I really answer to aren't the same person. When I was interviewed my first boss at the company asked if I would rather work on my own or as part of a team... I crossed my fingers and gave an honest answer. (Ever have a mechanical engineering lab course? "Where does the thermocouple go? It would be so much easier if you just did it for me") Give me a problem, give me a challenge, then assume I'm able to realize that a solution is the goal and let me rip. Double check my math/coding, but don't ask me to redo it because you or another department head would rather do it another way for no reason other than to have it your way, especially if there's a deadline. Good managers bring in people that they can trust to get the job done, in my opinion... the rest bring in people to kiss their ass and sit in on meetings where even if something gets accomplished, it was a hamstrung decision by other managers. A manager really can't be expected to keep up to date on every new piece of technology, but they can be expected to trust the people they hire to do that for them. If they can't do that, you're in meeting hell and it's time to find a new job. NO SIG
Sometimes it's not the managers, sometimes it's life that sucks. The managers are trying to make business run in a chaotic world. Economies, the competitors, the shareholders, the investors, the ceos etc are constantly throwing curveballs at you. The engineers and the rest of the geeks would like to be shielded from all that but it's just not possible.
War is necrophilia.
... I personally like my job. I work for a medium sized non-profit residential treatment center for abused children as their network admin. Its not the largest data center I've worked with, but I do manage 4 different locations connected through T1s and DSLs so I get to have some fun. My manager is a total human being, and so is my director. I had trouble at first understanding them, as people in this environment have a far different body language/vocabulary-slang and a completely different focus than anyone I've worked with in 9 years in the software industry. It's not about corporate deadlines, it's simply about getting the job done the best way we know how. I love that part.
While being a network admin isn't quite as challenging to my intellect as coding, It's for a good cause and I have my life back. I check in at 8:30, leave at 4:30, and enjoy my evenings with my woman. The pay is half of what I used to get, but I've never been happier. You want to chase the dollar, I say knock yourself out. You enjoy your money, and your expensive car as you're stuck in traffic for an hour on your way home at 8. While you're sitting in traffic, just remember that I've been home for 3 hours working on my own projects, having a beer, and loving my woman.
:)
Some things money just doesn't buy.
Well, thats not quite true, I move to managment, then ran like the wind to tech support...
;), anyway the boss liked it, and it was used natation wide, the Project manager was _still_ nowhare to be seen, so we othered to expand the training system to become gerneric with a fancy GUI builder, so we worked on that untill TWO WEEKS before project ended, then (and only then) we actually MET the Project Manager (*MS TaaaDaaaa*), and was told that this cool sounding-buzzword-compatable system we are suppost to develop was some web pages, and a little drop of java. Poo! Two weeks, and the pages are done (baddly, we were developers, not fscking artists!) and we were and we ran away from that job, never to speak of it again. :)
:)
Well, heres my story...
First Job (code monkey (3) & part time DBA(we had a full time DBA who doubled as Project Manager, but his time was limited)): At a uni, developing a Java based student regrestation system. This was good, we got the project done, but it was far from perfect.
Code Monkey's Team Leader kept scrapping the code base every few weeks (in the end, I moved my stuff to very generic code, that could be placed anywhere).
The TL & CM#2 throw chairs at each other.
The last week of the project the project manager when off home, and the TL was talking about scrapping the code base and moving on, we (the other CM's) were dead against it (and backed up our code), TL had just completed the GUI we'd even seen, scrapped the code, and developed one half as good, then (2 days before project end) scrapped the code again (rm -rf jreg!) and said he was off to see his mum for a week!!!
so off we went to see our SA, who, as luck would have it was on hols, and (as it was the summer holiday, no one else thought of making backups!!!).
So, two days, we throw together a GUI, and russed it out the door (thank [the] [g|G]od[dess][[es]s] for the back up's of our code we made)!
Job Number Two, Code Monkey again, but this time in a team of two code monkeys.
I went to the interview, went, yeah that sounds cool, i'll do it! This was at a Hospital
Came to work, was given a laptop, told you can work from home as there is no room here, Ohh the Project Manager is on holiday! We'll start the project next week, but in the min time, could you create an "Online Nurse Training System for [some long medical term]" Here is the pamplet, a week later, we have the basics out (needed a lot of working, but basicly worked, they had to hire a Java programmer to change it
It had some plusses thou, knowing that your work (both the shitty web pages and funky online testing system) were being used by people all over the medical community, and the work-from-home == lots_of_halflife.
Job Three: IT Manager
This was cool to begin with, I had POWER and a company credit card.
But with abolute power, comes abolute responcability, any problems, the MD's shout at ME! Dam it, I can't even rm -rf ~md, and I'd just get it in the neck! Well, a year and a half latter, and I can't stand it any more, also the project I which sold me on this job gets canned, I move from project to project (ranging from Web to Access to VB (uck)) which was fun, as when yr get board of PERL so move to VB
So, my contract is running out (it was only for 1.5 yrs) and I say "good bye, thanks for the drinks", do some interviews for my replacement, say "she would be Great!, what you need down to a T" (and bloody sexy too). So they hire some bloke that, well could do the current project, I guess... just...
So off I move again. Pissed of people blaming me when it all goes tit's up, pissed of at people scrapping code i've worked hard on, just pissed of really, work is not for me...
Well I get othered a job as "On-site IT Support Executive (Night)" At first I though, Hmmm night, no cuddling my g/f (which is still a BIG problem) but then the magic words were spoken... More Money and only work four nights a week.
Sold me.
It must be near 6 months now, and it's great. Don't do much work. Something goes wrong, we (me, and the "users") blame the day staff. It's great.
Even better sence I've downloaded NTEmacs, Cygwin and ProxyTunnnel (woo, SSL (and more importently CVS.sf.net) access!)
So there you have it, managers are a PITA for developers, (I've not had a problem with my current IT Manager, Project Leader, or EVEN CTO), but then it's a crap job at the top, people you can't fire blame you), so be kind your manager, say "I Quit", and find a nice cusshy job like Systems Support and some SF projects that sound like fun
mlk
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
I quit/got fired from my last job six years ago. Every project that I worked on, or was part of, was trashed, in some way, by every management team that I suffered under. And... I wasn't making that much money... So.. I quit and became a consultant, and life has been much better. yeah yeah.. times are pretty rough right now, but I am still living off the soaking that I inflicted on other companies for Y2K projects.. You can be who you wanna be.. don't bow to the scum of management forever.
But there are plenty more cases where management is bad. That's why there's such a rise in chain and franchise operations in retailing - there's such a shortage of people with real management skills at the local level that a cookie-cutter approximation of a solution can actually perform better on average than a solution based on intimate knowledge of a particular market - the franchise operation retains the cookie-cutter while cutting down on peer-level conflicts between managers. If management talent were thick on the ground local ownership would do best, followed by larger organizations with good internal communications and local autonomy, and franchises would be dead last.
Bad management is also rife in non-profits and educational settings - it's not just the profit motive that brings it out.
Is there an "as above, so below" aspect to it? Are so many people bad managers of other people because they are not doing so well at "managing" themselves? In my experience, the best managers are the least neurotic; and we're in a society, as Freud noted, in which most everyone is neurotic (although there's a shift to borderline disorder since his time). Can our culture increase the numbers of capable managers without somehow finding a way to increase the incidence of psychological roundedness that's required to be a capable person, period?
And would shifting the culture out of the prevalence of neurotic incapability threaten social systems which somewhat depend on neurosis as a point-of-leverage for social control?
____
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
< turn sarcastic voice on :-) >
.... many (most?) commerce grads make very poor managers especially in the tech industry. Being non-technical they have little appreciation for what really drives tech people (no, reading case studies does not count) and hence they have no real clue how to handle or motivate techies.
... which we all know as the PHB.
Typical of a commerce student to write screenful after screenful of text without getting to the point!
Let's put it simply: The best manager is someone who understands people, who understands the business, and who understands what happens in the business.
That's it - no other description or explanation required.
Now for the record
Worst, having read all these wonderful case studies, these commerce grads think they know how to handle tech people and just come across as these pompous arrogant know-it-alls
i'm out of work less than a week, and had 3 weeks notice. 1.5 years ago, i would have offers to choose from right now, currently i'm just starting to schedule the few interviews that i can pull off.
ok, so it's pretty obvious, there's a lack of work in IT right now, and a lot of good people out of work. 5+ years ago, the H1-B program was started because corporates lobbied congress (afaik) claiming lack of workers in a growing field. this may have been the case then, but not now. now, we've got tons of highly qualified people available for work, and corporations can choose to employ an H1-B at a lower rate and probably for more work (maybe even higher quality).
would it be unethical for the government to rescind, effective rather quickly, a bulk load of h1-b work permits? would it be ethical for the government to allow any new h1-b work permits in this field at this time? i guess it's better than off shore development, but that can only go so far.
now, i'm not too familiar with the whole h1-b process and arrangements, so if i've misrepresented anything, please feel free to correct me. i also realize that probably most of the people using this program for work in the US are highly motivated and highly talented individuals. the fact still remains that lots of american IT professionals are out of work, and there are still lots of h1-b participants from what i can tell.
Yet Steve Ballmer is a loudmouth with a temper who berates employees and not only leads the world's most powerful tech company, but he is also one of the wealthiest people in the world.
For every "communicator" I can show you a goose-stepper who gets results (and vice versa).
It sounds like you might depend a little too much on management. What they really want to see is people who can take chunks of work and get it done to spec. People that are begging to be managed on a personal level are a pain to manage. No one wants a pet monkey on their back all of the time. A lot of people in management positions, especially middle management, are just the people in the trenches that can do their jobs really well. Go do your job really well and see if they put you in charge (some day). Then you'll feel the sting on the other end of your barb--the one that goes, "Why can't I get qualified, trained and enthusiastic help?" or "Kids, today, I oughta.."
Just one viewpoint from the non-managerial mind of,
AntiChristX
Daring to remain below 5 karma indefinitely
We've been trying to solve this problem since the days of Fred Brooks, and we probably never will.
A more difficult problem for job seekers is the phase shift that is happening in the industry right now. i.e. the wholesale move from infrastructure (OS's and applications) to services (support, training, script glue work, etc).
I pride myself on being a "Hacker of the Old School" (HOTOS). But there simply aren't any jobs for HOTOS'es any more. It's all gone to MCSE's, sysadmins, and PHP/Perl/SQL script monkeys.
A few days ago, I hired a career consultant to help me find a new career away from programming. It's either that or slowly go mad in the declining IT industry.
I love programming, but the industry doesn't love the kind of programming I do anymore. :-(
Anyone else find it funny that these are the people that end up managing the CS and CPE graduates when they get a job after college? Maybe this is the reason why management sucks so much.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
Your point, on the other hand, sums it up well.
Well, I must say that this is very common in the ranks as these people are out of their depth for the most part. Having been writing software and dealing with corporate hassle for 12 years I became the manager. You wouldn't believe it but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Another thing to remember (at least for me) is that these managers and executives are not in any way, shape, or form techies. You gotta remember that they fought technology in business for years and now with the web they have no choice. As I am sure you have seen... It is awful funny listening to them try and put things in technical terms. Imagine them trying to explain what you are doing to their bosses...lol No wonder things are so screwed up.
The hope is that soon a whole new bunch of IT managers and Directors will emerge. As seen in startups and some forward thinking companies this really does reduce the levels of stress on management and team members alike. Yet, it takes a strong stomach to listen to the idiots... I know. Imagine having to say what you do in simple enough terms to explain it to Board Level Directors. You can imagine the patience that takes... Sometimes I think I was blessed by Jobe or Solomon or something.
My advice would be to apply for management level positions. If that is unlikely with your company, look elsewhere. However... DO NOT QUIT your job until you have found a new one. The market is very tight... especially in Backwards Assed Alabama.
Good luck!
Chase
ADMIRAL BAMADAWG --- TECHNICAL EXCELLENCE in the face of TECHNICAL ABSURDITY
I have no idea what they are teaching people in business school, but it sure as hell isn't logic. In my last ten jobs (as a contract worker, I get to see a LOT of different managment techniques), I have seen one theme that never seems to go away. Short term gains are always prefered over long term gains. This is basically the problem with the business world. This is the reason why a slapped together 5 minute patch that solves the problem for a week is almost universally preferred by managment to a wll thought out 5 day patch that will solve the problem permanatly.
I call it the "100% tax rate" syndrome. If you are looking at the super short term, a 100% tax rate would balace the budget, remove the deficit, and give us trillions and trillions in surplus. We would be the most powerful and prosperous America ever. Look rosy and wonderful to you? Well of course not, becuase you know that the end result will be that everyone will be dead of starvation after the first year. But the kind of thinking that management uses today convieniently ignores the second year, and just presents the first year as a utopia.
That's why a time consuming code review is never done, becuase the *short-term* gain of code review is negative. That's why you are forced to maintain shoddy, spaghetti code, becuase a formal rewrite would not buy you anything fast enough. That's why business ethics and integrity are a thing of the past...those kind of assets are viable for companies that have thier eyes set on the future, not the now.
The end result of all this is that to us engineers, who are ALWAYS thinking about the bigger picture, is that we view out management as completely incompetent. We don't realize that they are actually doing a *wonderful* job at accomplishing thier goals: realizing meaningless short-term gains.
The *other* end result is that we see things like the dot-com boom-to-bust cycle, where a new startup seems to take off like a rocket, causing everyone to jump on board, and then swiftly take a nose-dive.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
I also told them I was going to do it my way (the right way) or they weren't going to get ANY solution.
After them telling me to 'get out' they called me back and now I get to tell them what's going to happen to get done what they want done.
(I'm the web dev/admin/tech officer for a school)
Find a manager, or even a company, who goes by that philosophy and being subservient actually becomes somewhat pleasant. Managing should be about facilitating communication between team members, not drowning it in process. Good managers filter 98% of the crap dripping down from the layers above. If you start hearing sentences like "I just got out of a meeting with our VP, and I want you to...", head for the hills. You've just encountered the infamous "shit rolls downhill" principle of management. And, like most poor slobs, you're at the bottom of the hill with your mouth hanging open.
If you're working for a large corporation the single biggest mistake to make is to derive your job satisfaction from your "accomplishments". Very few companies develop cures for cancer and despite what your company says, if they are not in this field then chances are they're still stalled at the "find uses for opposable thumbs" stage.
I always recommend people consider whether they are being paid well, and whether they have the opportunity to be promoted. If they pay you well, shut up and get to work. If there is REAL opportunity to advance then ignore the current situation.
However never stay if your career path is compromised, and don't think your great performance will turn crappy pay into awesome pay. If they don't appreciate you at a low salary then they are GUARANTEED not to appreciate you for twice the price...
Management is damn hard and takes genuine real work and genuine talent. Good management is hard and expensive to come by. (So are good employees). It seems to me one of the most important aspects is for the company to be pro employee and to encourage friendly critique of management.
I'm not in the tech industry, but you guys ain't exactly famous for having good communications skills. This is management: communications. It means finding people who understand not only your particular project, but are professional managers! They study how to improve their departments output and keep employees productive and happy.
On as side note, my grandfather was an engineer who owned a major part of Parsons Brinckerhoff. He made every engineer under his command take a course in public speaking. He had lots of brilliant people with brilliant ideas, but they couldn't express it to the people that mattered. This I imagine is still needed desperately in tech programs.
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
My friends, sex is the answer. I find when having tons and tons of sex nothing really seems to matter:)
Is your girlfriend not at work? Have sex with the boss! or a co-worker!
Having a bad day? fuck something!
Just speaking from my heart guys... as a last resort you can pay for sex, or masturbate quietly in the bathroom.
Count yourself lucky that you _have_ management!
I work for a small newspaper and the owner/manager really doesn't do any "managing" at all, he just wants to be one of the journalists. He does some strategic stuff, sure, but the day-to-day management he ignores. So there is no communication, no clear deliniation of responsibilities, and a lot of confusion. *arrgghh*.
I love most of the job (login: root) as IT mgr but it is more maddening not having management than having bad management in my experience.
how can I feel good about the work I'm doing if I don't have confidence in my management?
First ask your self these questions?
1 -- Who the Hell am I to judge Management? As brilliant as I am did I have the fortitude and cash to start a company that employs enough people to have managers?
2 -- Why do I need to _feel good_ about my work in a non quantifable way? Why can't I simply be satisfied in the work I accomplish? Do I honestly believe that that every person who has a job _feels good_ about their work? Do taxi drivers; warehousemen; burger flippers; lumberjacks; DCMA lawyers; Senators; sys admins need to _feel good_ about their work or can they just get it done? Can knowing you're good be enough satisfaction? Can doing your job to the best of your abilities be the bronze ring?
3 -- Other than the deadline and some parameters; what do I really need to know?
4 -- When the economy totally tanks and no one is wiling to pay me to manipulate text in a way that a computer can understand it; will I care about _feeling good_ about my work or will the fact that i haven't had to sell any organs this week to make my mortgage be enough?
5 -- Am I insane to be caring about how I feel about managers in this economy?
See how those five questions get answered and then Q-Tip the shit out of your brain and get a job.
This
Sometimes the problems with the workers. Not everyone on a "project" can see the big picture. Everyone is quick to dis management. The worst places I have worked have always been "undermanaged".
Harder.. Better.. Faster.. Stronger
well, in the tech world at best buy, i know it crappy, but that's what i'm doing. anyways, it sucks, the regional people command the district people and neither know what they are doing... but i can get paid more then i expect...so i'll keep doing it
180 mbits of bandwidth. 'nuff said.
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
Looking at the statistics it appears that most of us have no basis to give relevant replies. We're a bunch of bums.
It's good to test management, just like in the movies:
Leave the rules to your Fight Club in the photocopier.
Pretend to work in the mail room, but really be an executive who has to comically change clothes in the elevators.
Make up sexual harrasment charges, then get stoned and pump iron.
Make certain that you got the memo, then don't follow new procedures.
Let your boss find out that you are really the prince of a country in Africa, and date his daughter.
Trade bodies with your teenage son, and have him fill your shoes for a few days, just to spice up the office.
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
This is a really great question, and one I can relate to personally. Up until a year and a half ago, I was a die-hard software engineer. As my company grew, it became necessary to put a management structure in place. My boss asked me if I wanted to be a manager. I said "no," and he said, "good, you're hired." So I've lived both sides. Anyway, here are my first-hand observations:
The reason there are so many bad managers around is very simple. Being a good manager is very, very difficult, and most people who wind up with the job are not qualified for it. There are many reasons for this. Managers in software companies come from two possible places: either they have a background in software or they don't. If they do, then they probably weren't trained in management and don't know the first thing about it. (This is the fault of our schools for assuming that someone working on a CS degree doesn't need/want to learn something as unrelated as management.) The other category are the managers who don't have a technical background, in which case they don't understand the decisions they make, they don't understand how to relate to engineers, and the engineers don't respect them.
So the first two things a good manager needs are both a technical background _and_ some sort of training in management. This is already a problem since management requires good people skills, an interest in psychology, a willingness to be hands-off, etc...all qualities that most engineers have trouble with.
In any case, let's assume we can find an engineer who has (or can learn) enough of the qualities above. This engineer now needs management training to be a good manager. The best way to learn management is from another good manager and, sadly, there are very few around. As a distant second choice, there are also some good books you can read. I recommend "High Output Management" by Andy Grove and "The Goal" by Eli Goldratt as good places to start.
So that's reason #1 why good managers are rare...it's rare to find someone qualified. Reasons #2 is that most people don't have a clue what managers actually do, or why they are necessary. This (sadly!) includes most managers.
Here, in a nutshell, is what a manager does: Let's assume you start a company by yourself and do everything yourself. Great! No problem. Now, let's assume that the company grows to the point where there's too much work for you to do by yourself. You hire someone to help you. Invariably, this person is either not as good at the job as you are, or just does things differently enough to make you uncomfortable. (This is inevitable since all people are different, so this person can not be a drop-in replacement for you.) Now you, as a manager of this person, have a choice: you can either do the guy's work for him (micro-management) which annoys him and keeps you from getting the rest of the work done, limiting the growth of your company...or you can relax, let the guy do his job, and over time, train him to do it better. The latter is good management. It's really an optimization problem: given more work than you can do yourself and insufficient resources, how do you get as much done as well as possible? And the answer is: by being even more inefficient...by taking time to organize and train instead of just doing the work yourself! Believe me, this is a very difficult thing to learn how to do!
But a manager's end goal must be efficiency. This brings us to the ultimate paradox of management: AN IDEAL MANAGER MUST DO EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO MAKE HIMSELF UNNECESSARY...that is, to train, coordinate, delegate, etc...get the organization to the point where it can thrive without his help. When the ideal manager reaches this point, his job is done and he can return to engineering full-time...and this is the ultimate reward of management. A good manager will always have "returning to engineering" as his ultimate goal, otherwise the system doesn't work. (How many managers do you know who have this goal?)
So...to summarize: Good managers are rare because there's a very wide cross-section of skills required, and because most people don't have the necessary background. They're also rare because even the ones with the necessary skills don't usually understand the concepts I explained above.
As for me...I'm really lucky. My boss has been an excellent mentor. I'm a manager who yearns for engineering (and still writes code as often as I can!) I love my job. The people who work for me trust me because I give them as much freedom as possible, yet I give them nudges every now and again to keep the organization on track. And finally, I feel that it's my personal responsibility to pass on what I've learned so that maybe this crazy industry that we all love so much will someday start working a little more smoothly.
Best of luck...
-Steve G
(steven at foo dot net)
I'm fortunate right now in that my manager is very good -- although everyone above him are idiots....
But in the past I've had some amazingly dumb people manage my projects. I was working for a company a few years ago as a web designer. We were trying to attract this one client (on the other side of the country) by setting up a homepage for them, as a sample of the complete site they would get later.
My job was to create the page, but also to create their branding. Including business cards, company colors, and their logo design. But...the company was very new and they hadn't completely decided on a name yet. My manager told me to do what I could with the web page and we'd hear from them later after they set their name.
But when I emailed in the design (I telecommuted) my manager's first comment was "where's the logo?" I retorted with, "what's their name?" My manager said, "they still haven't decided on it yet, but we need a logo! can you have one by this evening?"
To compound my confusion, my manager starts YELLING at me, furious that I hadn't created the logo yet! "Just make the design, or you'll loose your job! We'll plug the name into it later!"
they have no clue....
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
No physical product is created save for a cd. Many plans for cars and the like are finished years before they finish the physical production of them.
Take a good look at the highly succesful leaders in history, and you will notice one thing. As a leader, it is absolutely imperative to take care of your people. The quote goes something like this, "Take care of your people and your people will take care of your project". But sadly most people are not great leaders, and don't abide by this. As a leader it is impossible to know everything about the project (this makes micromanagement impossible), but the people on your team know their sections of the project inside and out. As a leader, it is your task to keep your people happy. Let them take care of the project.
Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thraktuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
i like my job but I wish it wasn't so redundant.
:
I wish they wouldn't have so many sysadmins listed as 'competent' while because I started 3 months later and the industry died down right after that I am now stuck asking some idiot every 30 seconds to implement a patch for a series of servers. And the 'procedures' [paper and database] takes a hundred-fold of the time needed to patch things up.
I hate that it takes 1 hour meetings everyday to justify our positions.
I just wished they actually give me something really important to do. I really work for 15 minutes a week. Rest of the time
1. On the phone. [clients, end-users]
2. Explaining myself, [paper, voice, database]
3. meetings
I wish the boss came in one day and surprised me with a worthy task.
Now a lot of the rants posted suggest a 'night' passion where your real endeavours shine through... But 8 hours a day spent in dire straits kinda bums me out anyhow. Even if i do all of my real computing at home... It's all a matter of perspective of time-lost.
YOu can never get those hours back.
do. Those who can't, manage. Seriously. It's pretty hard to get fired (NOT layed off). It's cheaper to be promoted away from the people who have problems with u. Thus s*!t floats to the top.
"Never trust a computer you can't throw." -- The Mac
I worked at Microsoft for over a decade, and have to say it was a very pleasant experience, not described by the authors complaint at all.
I think its pretty damn funny that people piss and moan about Microsoft, about their job, and about the government. Maybe you should stop moaning and get busy?
Now I am happily retired, joining in the fray here. But to be clear, I think a symptom of happy employees is success, and Microsoft has it in spades. So go on, bash the hell out of them. I'll sit back drinking my daquiris compliments of Mr G.
It seems like management at this company is just winging it.
They are. That is to say, we are. I recently was promoted from senior engineering to management. It's a different perspective, to say the least. But your basic impression is the right one: we're making this up as we go along.
The people in management aren't smarter than you. They're just people, like everybody else. They make some good choices and some bad ones. They go home at the end of the day and complain about you to their wives and neighbors. They feel bad when the company is doing badly, and they feel good when things are going well.
In other words, they're just like you.
I find myself putting all my energy, both mental and emotional, into a project only to be disappointed by decisions made by management.
I think that's kind of the point. Way back in high school, us American kids were taught that our government is basically, and deliberately, adversarial. The various parts of government argue and bicker all the time for a reason: out of the arguing and bickering comes a consensus that is the vector sum of all the separate factors that went into the decision. At least, that's the idea.
Companies work the same way. Marketing says, "Deliver all features, immediately!" Engineering says, "We need six months for quality assurance testing." This isn't a symptom of something wrong with the system. This is, in fact, a sign that everything is as it should be.
If we all put our egos away for a minute, we could admit that a company run solely by engineers probably wouldn't do very well. Either it would go out of business before it could ship a product (if the engineers were anal retentive about QC and testing) or it would fail because its products were shabby (if your engineers were mavericks who aren't interested in QC and testing).
Engineers and managers, like cats and dogs, will always be at cross purposes. If you're disappointed by management's decisions, that may not necessarily be a bad thing.
Of course, it you take it too seriously, and find yourself believing that you could do things better than your management could, then maybe it's not the right job for you. Or, more accurately, maybe you're not the right person for that job.
OK. I'll start with a disclaimer that my techniques to adapt to management are bases on the fact that I'm not afraid of my boss and that I'm never afraid that he'd fire me because my time estimate was too long. That said, how I deal with any given manager varies by the individual and typically includes many different tactics.
For one, I almost always base my time estimates on how long it will take to do the job the "right way" (the time usually works out to double my gut reaction to the question, "how long will it take you to do this?"). If I'm dealing with a manager who doesn't want it done the right way, I add another 50% to the estimate then I take it off when he "forces" me to get the job done sooner. Oh, and I should mention that the preceding flies in the face of what comes naturally to software engineers - the urge to give an optimistic estimate. Because, for some reason, it makes the engineer feel good to say that "I can do it in *this* short of time". Well, you're boss will be more impressed if you can meet your deadline, even if it was padded to meet with reality.
Another thing that I do is pad my estimates to make time for refactoring. I pretty much stick to rewriting modules that communicate with the new code. The rewrite typically involves design improvements and removing dependences that crept into places hey shouldn't have. In my 11 years of software engineering, this over-engineering has always resulted in SHORTER development cycles. Sure it doesn't feel that way early on, but by time your done with bug fixing and last minute feature changes, you'll be glad that you over-engineered the crap out of it. BTW, don't ever tell your manager that you're over-engineering, tell your manager what he/she wants to hear, work a few extra hours each week and watch him kiss your feet when you're able to incorporate those last minute changes w/out destabilizing the software and without pushing the release date back even further.
I could go on-and-on... oh, too late...
As a famous engineer once said, "you can't gain the reputation as a miracle worker if you tell him how long it actually takes."
"The Master in the art of living makes little distinction between his work and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his education and his recreation, his love and his religion. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence in whatever he does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing. To him he is always doing both." - Zen Buddhist Text
Ha...! All the same. They got an MBA and think that they know everything about the world.
It's a problem of all those business studies at the Universities themselves. You aren't teached how to work together with people, you are teached to see all your employees as a part of the problem, not the solution.
An example: One day, I visited a business studies class in my University in Munich, just to have a try.
What they were actually told in this class was that there existed a formula to determine the ideal (read: minimum) number of employees in a given firm. The variables were along the line of "how much is sold" and "how much do we spend", also being the only ones.
MBA-Students are taking this stuff for serious and assume that it's "scientific" somehow. IMHO, it's time that people who know that they aren't doing theoretical physics take over management. Maybe Psychologians, or Historians, Linguists, Archeologoists, or god-knows-what.
If such a person would take a three day course about economy, they'd be much, much better qualiefied to lead a business than all these dumb-asses from the MBA-faction - if only because they'd in any given case judge the situation as a whole (and know that they're not doing hard science) and not try to reduce everything to a silly formula.
This is an Ask Slashdot? What's the next pressing question that requires the attention and careful consideration of tens of thousands of IT professionals: A/S/L?
Kevin
I recently quit my job and joined a startup that is trying to secure their first round of financing. No money, therefore no management, so I'm having a blast. There is just a small group of engineers that know what has to be done and work hard to deliver. Hopefully we won't end up like the underwear gnomes
Phase 1) collect underwear
Phase 3) profit
Also, the last time I checked, CompUSA payed about as much as the fast food places.
------ Work is so much easier when you don't
> .and I have enough Karma for a dozen of stupid moronic fucks like you.
Wow! Congratulations! You've found your place in life - modding down posts on Slashdot and jerking off behind a computer. You must be quite proud of yourself!
But isn't this whole game what makes life interesting? Keep the managers in sales and finance. Leave the technology to the geeks who run it. :)
today is spelling optional day.
i hate this "up to mannagement" thing. i know too manny people who love doing the techinical work but can't get any higher pay because they can't mannage people. mannagement is a skill however it isn't something that makes you more valueable to a company, espshally if you can't accomplish the companies main objective. managers should get paid less than the skilled workers
also why the hell would anyone want to pull your best people off a project and tell them to go do something that they aren't good at, i don't get it. if people are good at a thing then you want them doing that thing and not something completely different.
just a thought
I've been working in the software engineering industry since I was a Freshman in High School. I must admit that when I started, I was totally enthusiastic about it - it was the greatest thing ever. Once after winning a programming contest I was offered a job in a promising startup company. For all of their promises, all of the work they went through to recruit me, and all of the Tandem-ish toys (Too many startups think that giving programmers toys makes morale go up. Unfortunately, they fail to realize that Tandem gave a whole lot of autonomy to the programmers), the unrealistic VP of engineering changed specs every single day and wondered why nothing got done so I quit. Since then, at least 5 other people who used to work at that place quit too. Thing is, I didn't feel even a little bad about the stock options - they'll never be worth anything at that rate. They even put my plea to management in the "Letters to the Editor" section of Engineered Systems (September 2001). I'm good at what I do. I've got a long list of people I've worked for who are very satisfied. I contract for $50 an hour. I hate my job. I swiched my major away from software engineering based on the bad management and influx of cheap labor from the East (look at www.elance.com). It's safe to say, I hate computers too. I see them as a tool by which I can play with math and physics in a way that I couldn't without them. Programming? It's been done.
Management, please read The Deadline and The Cathedral and the Bazaar.
Thanks,
~Ben
I'm a sysadmin at a still struggling, but funded, start-up (which makes me better off than most people), and I've just about decided to leave. The (chancy) prospect that there's going to be a pay off on my options no longer outweighs the hassle of 24x7x365 on call. A phone call or page in the middle of the night used to mean someone died - now it means that the latest rev from the developers wasn't tested completely before installation. And we laid off our QA department.
We have a large population of MIS majors at my school..... having no concept of why anyone would want to be in a management position iask them at every oppurtunity to explain to me, why they want the job.
Answer is always, MONEY.
Fact is, it pays well. MIS majors don't go into it because they want to lead, norbecause they have the capacity to lead, they want the fast cash. Most MIS majors that have taken some classes with me are disagreeable, standofish, and very disrespectful of other's opinions. It reminds me of two kinds of people:
1) people who want lots of money.
2) managers
Quite frankly, I don't even think MIS should exist as a major ANYWHERE, in my own, humble, few years of work as a part time contractor, the best managers, with the happiest staff, and the best results, are former programmers themselves. They can cod, which earsn them respect from their team members, plus they know what is reasonable and what is not. They have been pulled into the position because someone with a brain above them saw that they had a flair for taking charge. So you get a guy who can motivate, and get in the dirt and lend a hand on the task at hand.
Your average manager unfortunately, is like a stereotypical 90 day wonder in the army. The Lt from Good morning Vietnam is a classic example, thinsk because he outranks you, and makes more money than you that he commands respect and is better than you. very few people command respect, and when a person thinks they are better than you, they usually aren't commanding respect.
but again.... management.
not spell checking cause its late, sue me.....
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
Have you ever notice how high the taxes are on employment? Of course, employees are a liability. If I were an employer, I would fire my entire IT staff, hire back new one's at half the rate...just so I could cut that damn tax bill.
The way taxes work, is a country should tax the things they want to discourage. The US government puts its highest taxes on employment. That means it doesn't want people employed.
Do I like my job? I honestly can't say that. It has its challenges, yes (I'm a Unix SysAdmin at a large aerospace company in the Pacific Northwest), but our corporate "leadership" is a joke, and the resultant lack of clue seems to flow down the pipe through all the levels of management we've got.
Why do I stay? Because, at least for now, one of the benefits is that they pay the full cost of my college tuition towards my EE degree. If that benefit went away, I would do everything I could to move on inside of a month.
So, I think I will stick around long enough to get my degree. Once that happens, I'll be out of there so fast that there'll be a soft 'boom!' from the imploding air left in my wake.
And you know what? I think that sucks. I think it sucks that any company big enough to be both engineer and factory just doesn't seem to want to do either one any more. I think it sucks that they don't seem to want to do much more than assemble parts that other companies build, just like a giant Heathkit (remember those?)
Then again, that's me. I'm not a high-(over?)paid corporate exec, so maybe it's not my place to understand these things. Maybe there's nothing to understand, and it just comes down to short-sighted greed.
Enough ranting. Good luck to the fellow at NASA. I hope things are at least better there than they are at my spot.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
this is slashdot. you're a network admin. the real reason is you don't want your pager to go off, telling you in shrill tones that every router you own has just gone Tits Up due to inbound traffic... ;-) You can be honest here, you're among friends.
(And yeah, I agree with you, working in a casual atmosphere rules. It's worth the pay cut if you have to take it, to show up wearing what you want and know that you have a good chance of making it through the day without getting screamed at.)
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
In my case our company has been searching for a strategy for the last three years. We have been struggling at times and have been doing pretty decent at times too. But I'm far from saying that my manager lacks vision. In fact I respect him for this very reason. He isn't afraid to make mistakes, admit that he made them and try some new idea. Just like we -- the programmers -- weren't born with the source code for each and every program that we ever write in the course of our lives, managers also weren't born with every 'vision' from the get-go. It's a work in progress. We expect end-users to tolerate beta type software just because we've declared that it's the first revision but we don't seem to have any patience with new ideas in management. I guess I've been luckier than most in the sense that my manager respects my opinions when he considers new ideas. But I think you get that kind of respect only when you give it too.
On second thoughts, I hope he doesn't can me in the next round of the 'cutting-expenses' vision ;)
Well, I hate to say it, but even being focused on the project and mandating quick-and-dirty fixes is ahead of the game for most non-technical managers. I never understood why software had more non-technical managers than EE or Mech E. Whoever heard of a project manager for a fighter aircraft who didn't know what an aileron was? Software also seems to attract managers who feel the yardstick of success is how stressful the project is. I've seen incompetent, unethical, and even criminal actions from managers in my career.
I once created a project from the ground up, fought for its existence, built it with a fraction of the staff that it should have had, delivered it, and blew people away with its outstanding performance, only to have the project taken over the moment it was successful by a raving idiot who lasted less than a year and was replaced by an even more raving idiot. At least it was 80-100 hour week nirvana for two years.
A couple of recommendations (if you're looking for a new position)
1: Never work for a non-technical manager.
2: Work for someone who's actually delivered a product (at least once), and not entirely worked on aborted projects.
3: Make sure (s)he does at least some of the software.
4: Make sure (s)he has a spine, and is capable of forming relationships with other human beings.
Unfortunately it seems to be the nature of the game. Of the organizations I've worked for and consulted for I've yet to run into a management team that was more than barely competent, at best. Most of the time management at all levels was truly pathetic. The larger the corporation, the more likely I was to discover an army of brain-dead morons at the rudder of the corporate ship.
Of course, nothing beat government. Even Symantec wasn't as bad as government. I learned over time that government is where management went when they were too stupid to hack it in the real world. The corporate world often reflects Dilbert to a startling, and disheartening, degree; the government world makes Dilbert look *reasonable*.
(Aside: vast personal experience with management has convinced me that conspiracy theories a la X-Files are a complete crock of shit. You add one managerial-type to your conspiracy and you might as well shoot yourself.)
What I've noticed about management is that it tends to attract people interested in wielding power over others. People like this get into a managerial position because they're willing to do the things that professionals find annoying (e.g., coordinate schedules, do payroll, sell to clients, etc.). Once one of these boys has his foot in the door he works overtime to get more of his kind into the company; after a certain critical mass is reached you no longer have a prayer of reversing the trend. The PHB's outnumber the normal folks who originally took up the position because no one else wanted it, and they maneuver to get rid of competence in favor of people who're more like them.
And then, of course, they sit around playing power games with one another and with their employees, wasting valuable resources trying to impress themselves and everyone else with just how important they are.
In my experience - and this is completely, utterly anecdotal - a corporation is always somewhat inefficient. This inefficiency grows with size. But the inefficiency is *compounded* by managerial fools whose primary role is to gather resources around them like one massive penis enlargement pill, so that when they whip it out in meetings everyone else will say "ah!". In effect, these 'managers' are nothing more than balding frat boys, counting budgets and personnel for prestige points rather than the number of women they've bedded during the last semester.
I'm sure there are exceptions. There has to be, somewhere. I've just never run into them in the for-profit or government arenas. The only time I've seen something in management approaching an actual concern with the efficiency of the organization is in non-profits. The most efficient organizations I've ever seen have all been open-source projects with project leaders who do their best *not* to manage. But the latter are hobbies and money has been taken out of the equation, so they don't qualify as models for business.
Having painted that depressing picture, what do you do? Not a whole lot. That's just the way things are and if you want to keep a job playing 'outraged revolutionary' is an incredibly naive thing to do. The people who tell you "if you don't like it then quit" are the ones who've never gone hungry in their lives, or don't have families to support - generally the young and stupid who've yet to be bitch-slapped by life, or who can run home to mommy and daddy if they think the world is treating them unfairly.
For the rest of us, who know what it's like to miss a meal or three, or who've had times in a bad economy when the checking account is low and the panic over the rent starts to set in, being young and stupid isn't an option. You kick back and make the best of a poor situation because the alternative is much, much worse than the shitheads you have to put up with at work.
In an effort to end this rambling rant, your job is pretty typical. What you're experiencing is the norm. Cultivate cynicism now and avoid the rush.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
One scary moment that everybody should experience before they consider themselves an adult is the final realization that everybody is just winging it. People like Bill Gates or Thomas Jefferson or [insert your hero here] are simply better then winging it then others.
It's scary. Your government is winging it. Your doctor is winging it. The CIA, FBI, FDA, FCC, the Supreme Court, the Russian Government, Al-Qaeda, they're all winging it. Some a little less then others, but don't kid yourself; how often does the Supreme Court decide based largely on logic, versus based largely on their gut feelings (a.k.a. "political philosophy")?
Your managers, being human, are winging it. They have no more bandwidth then you in life. You can barely keep up with your projects and the industry. They have their own problems, and they aren't keeping up with your projects or the state of your industry.
Everybody's winging that. Carry that around with you. I wish everybody realized that; the world would be somewhat safer if everybody acted with this knowlege.
(Boy, it's scary. Really scary. But there's no compelling evidence to the contrary, only isolated counter examples.)
This does not mean that you should have zero confidence, but I would say low levels of confidence are in order. (Boy, I hope my future employer(s) don't see this, or if they do, I hope they understand what I'm saying here.)
You can't fight this, so don't. Roll with it. Don't commit your soul to your job. You must cultivate the ability to detach from your job, so if one VP's decision wipes out your last six years of coding, try not to be too upset.
Like all good advice about managing one's inner self, this is impossible to apply fully, and I'll be the last to claim I have. But like all good advice, at least trying helps more then not trying at all.
This is one of the many reasons I hobby program. Nobody can do that to me, except myself.
I unfortunatly resent my job. It's not that it's such a bad job, its actually alright because there isn't really a manager here to complain about. It's sort of a flat hirarchy where everybody has equal say (well made to feel that way anyway, even though there are deffinatly those with real say and those without). And I enjoy the company of all my co-workers.
:/
:/ Its kind of heart breaking putting in extra unpaid work when you've been told our customer is the publisher who wants a title delivered on time regardless of quality, and not the poor kid who ends up getting our game for christmas instead of the one he wanted. Oh well, if people were dumb enough to get tricked into buying the Xfl-box because of it's power hype then I guess they deserve our games...
;)) how crappy the job actually is we move on to other fields..
The biggest problem is the low pay and unpaid overtime. We recently finished a game, and us coders, as expected, came in for a hell of a lot of unpaid overtime. But it's not just when we go final-every month we have to show our publisher a milestone so they know we're actually getting stuff done and they pay us, so every month there is this fake urgency to get stuff done.
The problem is, like it or not, the game takes x number of man hours. Whether we work 9-5 five days a week or 9-9 six days a week it takes the same amount of hours (well with those long days you get burned out and are FAR less effecient), it's just that the management manages to get a game out of us in 11 months instead of 12. They save themselves a month of payroll for developing a game when in reality there are laws saying if they want us to work extra like this we need to get paid extra (that's what overtime pay is all about!!)
I find it funny how some of the dumbest people in the world who end up operating a drill at a factory are so much smarter than all us geeky coders. They're smart enough to form unions and stand up for themselves and get paid for their work. We all just take it..
I wouldn't mind it so much, but my salary is under $30K/year. With my wife attending a private college we can't even afford to get cable TV next month (she works part time too, as much as possible while leaving time to study).
I have one other pet peave about my job. I care deeply about games. Forget this Xbox nonsense about having 10% more polygons per frame than the competition or whatever they think makes them cool, I'm talking about the therory behind play, what defines interactivity, etc. Kind of Chris Crawford stuff. I would more than anything like to make games that matter. The games that our company makes unfortunatly suck. But as long as there are uninformed casual console players that buy sports games our company will remain in business
So working at a game company is pretty good if you don't mind low pay and lots of expected "volenteer" overtime. I guess that's why the industry is full of single, young males. Once we get married we realize (or have our wives tell us!
I agree with many of the posters who say management is clueless and I agree. I also find most of "business" side of any organization often is just buzz word followers at best and at worst people who have no clue whats going on in the real world.
I have done a lot of thinking about this and other aspects of employment in this world and come to the conclusion that it doesnt matter where you are best or worst situation, if you feel your doing something worthwhile its all worth it. If your not or feel like your doing nothing to benefit either yourself or society or your dog or whoever you want to help in this world, you wont like the best of jobs.
In someways this is why i long for the days where we goto Mars or something other then just earning money because i believe thats what most of us want, to make a difference in one way or another and that reflects itself in our unhappyness in our day jobs. Whether that be unhappyness with peers or employeers or management.
Sorry bout the rambling but just my $.2.
I'm not a manager. I don't like the meetings, the arcane processes and forms, the politics... But I've seen a lot of bad decisions get made + good projects get cancelled, and I think I have some insight into this.
The people who make the seemingly arbitrary decisions that determine a company's future are not trained in math and statistics, even if they use metrics and formulas to assess projects.
Problem 1: All statistics come with a confidence interval.
- Programmers get asked for schedules. Most of the time, these schedules are accurate to within 300%. Management computes a critical path flowchart from these results and actually trusts the results.
- Someone does a very accurate (down to the penny) analysis of how much a widget will cost to build. 2 years later, when the product is actually ready, this data is obsolete and the design decisions look very foolish.
Problem 2: Every decision has an opportunity cost.
- Someone does a business case analysis and this results in the project being cancelled. 6 months later, the project is resurrected, at considerable expense. It's a bad idea to make big decisions when the rationale is borderline.
Pop quiz: You're playing Who Wants to be a Millionaire and you're stuck on the $16,000 question. You've used up all your lifelines, and you're 40% certain that the answer is A. Do you take the money or take a guess? Answer: You take your chances, because even though you have a 60% chance of losing the $16k, you need to factor in the possibility that the $32k question might be easy.
Problem 3: Calculations don't include the intangibles.
- Switching from tool A to tool B will save the company $50,000 per year. This will recoup the initial investment in only 3 years. (This one is particularly prevalent among politicians.)
Meanwhile, all of the employee's are slightly peeved at having to switch. Plus, there are unforseen problems with the new software. And the kicker is that after only 2 years, management replaces tool B with tool C, which promises a similar ROI.
Statistics and metrics can be useful, but the danger is in letting them overrule common sense.
-a
How to rationalize theft.
Seeing as my previous job was working at a popular fast food place, this job (working at a PC repair shop) is pretty cool. I sit around all day and build/repair computers and laptops, and I can take a break whenever to surf the web on a very nice high speed line that puts my cable modem to shame. My boss is great, has never once gotten pissy with me and always speaks highly of me, and the customers respect me (unlike at my last job). It's rather nice when you have them by the balls. ;) The best part is the fact that every day I'm given the chance to learn new things that actually interest me. When I see something that I want to play with (such as a dualie Xeon server), he orders it, we play with it, and then it sits there along with all the previous toys. Now that we're working on setting up a Linux/FreeBSD domain for web hosting and remote backup, I'm learning even more about networking, *nix's, security, etc. I get paid decent (enough to get me by for now) and I get great discounts on fun toys like my Panasonic PrivateID Iris scanner. :) So I'd have to say yes, I really do like my job, and I realize how lucky I am to be among the few folks who can honestly say that.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
When i was a teen, i thought that coding was what i was meant to do. that it was in my blood.
i tested out of high school early (the CA public school system is trash.), as a junior, and promptly got a job and moved out of my parent's place, who discouraged all things involving 'that damned computer', and wanted me to become a lawyer or doctor.
The job lasted a year and a half... 75% of which was hell. My CEO seemed cool... then he introduced me to my manager, arney.
i asked arney what i was supposed to code. he said 'a client'. i said, 'what kind of a client?'
he looked at me with the vacant stare a cow gives anything other than hay or other cows and said in a preprogrammed voice, 'the web will connect to the client.'
'surely you mean the other way around? that the client will connect to the web? that you want me to write a web browser?'...
'nope! the web will connect to the client!'.
i began to panic. 'you mean you actually want me to get the hundreds of thousands of computers that comprise the web to mysteriously connect to my client?'
'exactly.'
i bit my tongue, and sought out the other coders, hoping they knew what was going on. one was programming a subroutine that split arrays in c and returned two smaller arrays of the same one.
there are easier ways to get the same effect, but arney had specified this one.
arney eventually got fired, but the insanity continued. the boss coming in drunk and ranting about his sex life, showing us his masterpiece, a > 40K line visual basic program that ran like methuselah frozen in carbonite in the winter, maintained by man whose lack of skill in english was only surpassed by his lack of skill in everything else. a man who openned infected email attachments on our main server in outlook...
the server with > 60 thousand e-mail addresses in it.
good thing script kiddies haven't figured out sql yet.
the year and a 1/2 went almost entirely along these lines, a frantic race to complete and reverse engineer useless programs on computers with pentiums while the sales department rattled away on brand new athlons.
i was right in that i was born to code...
i just wasn't meant to code for other ppl.
i joined the navy, enlisted, not officer. a decent package where i fix stuff, but never build.
life still sucks, but at least i get a new boss every month or so, and when somebody orders me to do something stupid... *shrugs* it's not like i actually care about what i'm doing anymore.
purrhaps some would say the cure was worse than the illness... and they might be right, but i still have my laptop... i still have no formal schooling... and i'm stil coding, and in that, at least, i can find satisfaction again.
--ShrikeFeather
PS: to the web dev dude at the forementioned company, if he's reading...
you'd better not still be working for those idiots, if they're even still around... you had serious skills, especially for your age. get out and work for something other than peanuts and stop dealing with retarded suggestions for the color scheme, just get out!
oh yeah, and don't join the navy either.
I was in your position about nine months ago. I had worked at a university for about 10 years, in IT. Dilbert applies there as much as it does anywhere. I was paid relatively well, but it wasn't enough to make up for the amazingly shallow human drama that our management was hellbent on creating. I felt that my soul was being siphoned out of my existence, one tedious day at a time.
After spending way too much time (years) pondering what to do, I quit. I gave them a generous notice, then left. I don't miss it and I feel like a relevant human being again.
Now that I've had time to reflect, I've come to believe that:
- while it is a noble and romantic notion, attempting to find meaning in one's IT work is really hard and potentially dangerous for your mental stability, because
- the IT work force is filled with people who occupy the middle of the bell curve and who just don't give a hoot.
If you want to make a difference in the world, don't figure on doing it through your employment. I think our generation has been brought up with the idea that the road to happiness is found by loving your work and doing work you love. That's a pretty picture, but the real world doesn't make that a goal that one can really achieve.Today's work place, probably any work place actually, it's like playing on your grade school class' PE kickball team. You don't have a team of the best players; you have a team with every player of every skill level and interest. What's the point of being concerned about the quality of your work when you're just one of a few people who could give a shit? Now, if you're playing on a team/working in a job where everyone wants to do their personal best, solving problems and kicking ass, it would be different (kind of like Star Trek...).
You asked how can you feel good about your work when you don't have confidence in management? That's the wrong question. How you feel about your work doesn't hinge on what you think of management? They're probably not qualified to really judge your work anyway. Your management is as smart as they're ever going to be. They're doing the best that they can. It may not be the best possible job; it probably isn't what you would do, if you were the manager. But that's not the point of the exercise. You're not supposed to do the best work that you're capable of; nor are you supposed to expect that management wants you to do this! Rarely is one rewarded for being smart or clever. Getting from point A to point B in the shortest or most efficient way? Not relevant.
You'll have a hell of a time changing the people in your work place. It's a lot easier to change yourself. If you think your management is clueless, they probably are. If it is important to you that you work with people who aren't clueless and actually share your values about work, you'll probably have to bail on this job eventually and seek out an employer who better fits your idea of reality. Or, you can change your own point of view about work. Yield and conquer. Let work be the place that supplies you with cash so that you can live life with people who actually care about the things that you do. It's definitely easier to find a group of people who'll share your passion about something outside of work than within it. Especially IT work.
I've learned that the best use for employment is as a spigot for cash to fuel a stylish, mysterious, and dangerous life. Fill a position, show up, cash the paycheck. Use the cash to go out and build a fulfilling life. Don't look for meaning or personal fulfillment at the work place. It's not there to be found.
I quit my soul-reaping IT job to write my own software, on my own terms. That makes me happy, but hasn't made me rich yet. I also started playing music and discovered a community of people that I really enjoy spending time, some of whom also equally share my passion. Now that's cool and fulfilling. That's the hokey-pokey. You probably won't find the hokey-pokey in the workplace. Work is work and life is something different. If I ever go back to employee situation again, especially in IT, I'm going to keep this foremost in mind.
Do the best work that the situation permits. You'll not be able to do any better and wasting cycles worrying about it is futile. It may not be spiritually satisfying, but you'll earn the same pay in any case. When the day's over, go off and live your real life.
Let's see..
:)
1. I work for a large, national bank.
2. I do computer security for said bank. (firewalls, proxy servers, and DNS)
3. I work 99% from home.
4. My boss is in a different state.
5. We have a conference call for a staff meeting every week.
Yeah.. I think life is good.
A lot of insightful materials about managers running companies:
h tm
http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/bully/serial.
Enjoy!
There are times that suck. The first time I ever had to tell a woman (at 2AM) that her fifteen-year-old daughter snuck out, got drunk, wrapped the family car around a telephone pole, and would never be coming home...yeah, that blew goats. And the first time I got suspended because of a chief who does nothing but politics and is using us as a stepping stone to the chief's office at a "prestige" department. And I HATED being sued or shot at.And let's not get started on being overseen by a review board with no knowledge of my profession, no experience, staffed by self-appointed "community activists" who are in it mainly to play the politics and be state senators some day.
They warn us in the academy that we're not going to be able to save the world. Maybe so. And it's easy to be cynical-I've gotten pretty good at it. But even if you can't protect the entire world you can still help keep your own corner of it from getting too much worse. I'm satisfied enough with a holding action.
So a couple of years back I also wondered about this phenomenon. I've been around the block now, and I've seen managers who hide, managers who pray, managers who try to be buddy-buddy, managers who use Microsoft Project, managers with small and large amounts of tech experience, managers who wage wars, managers who defend territory, managers who protect their "people"....
If you want my guess, I believe that the #1 quality lacking in managers is humility. There is a belief that management responsibility is a reward for good service, and also a tradeoff of making a higher salary. There are few smart companies that will continuously increase a top employee's pay without making him or her into a manager. They are so few that they are almost mythical.
What this has created is a situation where those who express the most interest in becoming managers are the ones who make the most money, and those who want to be managers are usually lesser-qualified employees for managing a creative group than the ones who want to stick around and be creative.
This is a problem, and I don't like it. When I started at my current company, I had a mixture of client and internal management, and the client manager was absolutely the worst. Total climber, no ability, no concern for the team, and quick to blame others when things went wrong. The internal management was not so much better.
Shortly thereafter, I was put on a project where we were asked to fix the problem for our client. I had a nascent set of ideas about the solution, and I got an opportunity to put them into practice.
First off, if you make "manager" mean "administrator" and not "leader", then you empower any member of the team, at any time, to take the leadership role. You also allow any current leader the ability to lay down the role when it no longer suits him or her. The manager can still continue to manage the team, which means trying to get stuff, doing the internal PR campaign, being ultimately responsible for hire/fire/reviews but not the initiator thereof, etc. The manager of a team is in a tough position: no obvious deliverable like an executable program.
Management is also not the same as sponsorship. If there is a stakeholder in the project, that person should play the customer, not the manager. The customer is the one who specifies what is to be done, in what priority. The creative members of the team describe how it is to be done. The manager should not be in between any stakeholder and the team, although it is often a good idea for a small number of stakeholders (i.e. one) to funnel the opinions of all the other stakeholders into a consistent program.
At this point, it should be mentioned that the idea of a "Program Management Office" is generally flawed. If your customer wants to be called that, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he or she should stay on the customer side of the fence.
If you don't have a structure like this, your managers will run in place a lot in order to show that they're sweating. Remember: there is no deliverable, so they get judged on other things. Managers without structure will agree to silly deadlines, exhort the team about performance, tell team members to do stuff, and eventually they will fail. If you're on the outside, it can be fun to watch in a disturbing way, like that scene in "Project X" where they killed the apes.
If you're on the inside, it'll suck like a Hoover.
Can programmers live without management? Yep, we sure can. I do like having them around, though. If a manager appears on your project, send them to meetings in place of the team. Have them informally relate the results. Make sure he or she doesn't make decisions for the team. Make sure you have prepared the manager with the right words to say and a list of things to not discuss. A good manager requires no management, but you often have to handhold ones that are not used to actually doing useful work.
After that, a good manager will be seen and not heard.
So, to answer your question, no, that's not how it should be, but it's how it is 92% of the time. 5% of the time there is a good manager, and 3% there is no manager.
Cheers,
John
1985
Bailed out of NASA/DOD job (6 years test engineer) because I said SOMEBODY would blow up if it went on. (Jan '86 it did. Exactly.)
1989
Bailed out (10 years reporter, yes these years overlap: I do many things) NPR control after no reports of Amazon desertification, while my own local bank owned the largest soybean farm in Brazil...)
1991
Fired as Research Scientist for State Research Laboratory while cleaning up NJ Top-ten Superfund site for USN, after reporting that my entire salary and my car was trashed for housing on base and project use...
1992
Fired after reporting being asked to dump low-level nuclear waste into local dumpster, instead of bagging-and-tagging as required by law (boss pocketed $75,000, +I might go to jail)
And then I went out on my own. I could build anything: I did build part of the Space Shuttle, and other things in space. And the only plant-scale facilities which can safely remove dioxins and other really nasties. But I digress.
If you can build decent computing machines: do so, and spread them around.
(For that Chem-e cleanup I built a 396SX-16 machine from chips and kept it hidden in the budget... Even added Turbo Pascal, in the day... the bosses never knew, until the virus acquired fron the local PC distributor smeared the drive.)
And then I went to NY. Never, ever, ever quit
Look at all the sad, unemployed bastards.
I don't feel so alone anymore!
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
Oooh, i like it like that
Well the good news is that you can learn from this to always get everything in writing first, and always read the fine print...
Seriously though, are you SURE that it says ALL your code (intellectual property) belongs to them? If so, wow that's pretty draconian. If you're willing to lose $5k to get rid of the stipulation, then maybe you'd also be willing to go find a lawyer (BTW IANAL). They'll probably either tell you a) that it's unenforcable in court unless your company can prove that you've been reusing proprietary knowledge from work, or work computers, software, etc., or b) they'll draw up a proposal for a different agreement and help you try to get your company to change their policy for you.
I don't know where you work but at most places this kind of crap is general gobbledygook they make everybody sign and you'd probably be able to work there anyways if you'd just initialled beside it and crossed it out (they'd probably not even notice), or you work at a small company where they'll probably work with you anyways if you have "special needs" and can provide them piece of mind.
Just some thoughts, if you're serious about getting out of your situation.
www.clarke.ca
Geeks (sys admins, code warriors, techs, me, etc) are the hardest group of people to deal with in a corporation because we're SMARTER than everyone else. Yeah, lots of things seem obvious to you and me, but others struggle to grasp the problem itself, let alone provide some direction towards a solution. We all know the Alpha Geek type: amazing system/networking/coding skills, but is a lousy manager. Then there's the classic manager: sales/marketing/prod dev/factory management experience, but has never worked with people who are capable of working without supervision. This is the dichotomy that we all live with.
At first I thought it was a generation gap, but soon I began to realize that I had more in common with 50 year-old programmers (I'm 24) than many of the "drones" who were about my age. In short, a good tech manager knows what his/her people are capable of and lets them get the job done with minimal supervision. On occasion they offer advice towards producing a solution, but in general they provide support when the shit goes down. The idea manager doesn't route flack from upper mgt down, he/she takes it and turns to their team for a solution.
--G Barr
Sapere Aude - Homer
I love my job, when I have it. I have, for the last two summers (the rest of the year is reserved for school) worked for the Forest Service as an archaeologist. Plenty of time out in the field, surrounded by sage brush and Great Basin wild rye with no one else for miles. Vistas that go on forever. Warm sun and cool breezes. And a legacy at least 7,000 years of history and culture at my feet.
Then, of course, the hours in the office to report on field findings, but even that has its highlights. Deranged locals complaining about the latest actions of the Feds (some of the rants are really quite enjoyable). The company of several fellow archaeologists. Books detailing every kind of bottle, can, or plate known to man. Information of thousands of sites at my finger tips.
Really, I have a great love of the work that I have had the opportunity to do. It is quite lucky that I have fallen in love with a field that is so open and accepting to undergraduates. Not only do I have a chance to work at a proffesional level, helping to make decisions that acctually affect policy, but I get to prove myself before the people whose jobs I would very much like to have. Verily, I love the work that I do!
Rhapsody in Numbers
Honestly, it doesn't matter... CowboyNeal's job, My job, your job, hand job *cough*...
/.
As long as you can still come to
A Job without the internet... my God, please, mommy make the bad men go away! No mommy, No!! I don't want to go to school today!!
See you space cowboy...
After working four years for a corporate media whore (read: newspaper), then aquiring a job at a small, independent web application (+-7 employees) company, I've noticed a substantial difference in mangement styles, and how things get done. Management at the newspaper was just like it sounded like at Cliff's - the management didn't care about managing employees, they were more interested in revenue and attempting to look good to the community then making the employees happy with appropriate deadlines and the like. Even when faced with the impossibility of something, we were still forced to do what they wanted or face the wrath of back-stabbing upper management automatons. Too much to do, too few people to do an adequate job. Someone would quit, but they wouldn't fill the position; it would just go dark so they could attempt to save money and not implement other cost-saving measures (recycling, reduction on paper, efficency in general). But with the smaller work enviroment, it's a comppletely different story. Everyone works as a team, and there is no backstabbing. The manager is on the same level as we are, and there is a complete sense of well being amongst everyone. They know what it takes for success, and they don't skimp on just getting by. They thrive on getting things done right, and with the right tools. I think the smaller the work place and more tight knit everyone is, the better. When management can be on the same level (and tell better fart jokes than I can), it really makes good for the motivation and pride amongst employees.
Just go about your business and when things seem to be too much to take, blurt out "Serenity now!" at the top of your lungs.
After spending a few years working my way up in a large company, starting at the bottom (fixing every imaginable PC problem), all the way to head office sitting in meetings and doing 70+ hours a week. I decided it was time to do my own thing. I went into contracting/consulting(with a big cut in pay), while in the evening working on my own website, I am making enough money to live on and save quite a lot, while I am working on something that I want to do. The growth of the site is slow to begin with, but in about three years I should have something. Anyway I have seen all sorts of managers, and all manner of decisions, but the biggest problem I see if the total lack of communication, especially from technical people. So the thing I recommend you do is learn how to communicate a hell of a lot better. Technical managers are also just as bad, if not worse than the people working for them. but remember the name of the game is power. My power as a consultant is to make more money than the people that I work for (which I do). They pay me the money to the work, so I couldn't care less if they made me play solitaire all day long, they can make whatever decision they want as long as I get paid. Also hanging around India for a year doing very little, made me take a good long look at myself and what I wanted. This doesn't seem to be the big thing in america, but a year out would really help.
I hate my boss. Aargh! I used to like him, he was a distant friend. Then I started to work for him. Always a mistake. Now I can deal with him if I must, I just dont want to. Passive-agressive behaviour is a defence mechanism for stress ("What happens when you supress the desire to choke the living shit out of someone").
He may be a good engineer, but he is a manager in the same sense that a woodpecker is carpenter. He is charge of some people, that's about the extent of his managerial abilites.
One week before I am sheduled to leave, a fact that he has known for months, still I have no replacement, but he has asked me to implement a metric ton of changes, most of them off-the-cuff.
Yes, he wants value for his money, but darn it, management is about planning and timing. This is like a paniced seagull.
On an inspiration, he also asked me to move all the strings returned to the user in the program into a resource file or database where he can edit them without messing with the program. This is not a Win32/C program with a resource table, it is a website in PHP and Java. I should have laughed out loud, but all I did was mentally move it to the bottom of the priority list, which is already too long.
I didn't tell him that the new 1.4 version of java is finally out of beta, for fear that I'd be asked to "just quickly" roll it out on Friday before I leave.
What really boggles my mind is the complete lack of any conception of the need for a shakedown period. I finish all these changes on next friday and then walk away, and it all works perfectly. Never mind that it's never done that yet, not on this project, any other that this company has been involved with, or come to think of it, any other software in history.
But being proactive is not one of this office's virtues. Patching the patches is the first order of business.
But he is not a person to whom it is easy to tell things that he doesn't already know. Not easy to disagree with.
I am taking pride in making this program, this site work. Out users like us, and I get off on that. I'd gladly hand it over to someone else, but my boss is determined to mess it up and he doesn't have the faintest clue that he's doing that. If I do tell him he wouldn't understand.
I'll do what he says, it's the path of least resistance but I don't like it. It's unprofessional.
Two other employees are leaving in the near future, one with a personality clash with my boss. This would be OK, except he many years of hard-to-replace operational knowledge. This was supposed to be an easy six-month contract, don't get too involved, don't commit long-term. Sadly, all I can hope for is that I am far away when things do go wrong. Work is like that. You do all you can, and when it's over you never look back.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Maybe not. But if you get on the personal level with your managers... what happens when you have personal issues? You are equal after work as friends, but during work they are above you. This means that conflicts after hours translates into you getting nailed during hours. Trust me on this one, not a good idea. Not saying you can't have a good work relationship.
Note: I've seen a few posts that mention managers who are geeks/coders/techies and while that would seem to be ideal I can tell you that two guys they moved out of my department and into management both have skills/knowledge that I respect. But they've completly lost the will to live and I'm certain their skills are destined to atrophy.
We really need your help
http://www.gofundme.com/help-sherry
As a CS major at Rutgers University, I can say reading shit like this makes me wonder if I'd be able to take on such agrivations.....
Viva La Revolucion! Buy a Mac!
I'm a computer programmer. And I used to like my job. But then I got a project which turned out to be a fiasco.
First, my boss ordered me too tight dead-lines despite all my arguments. Then our company was merged to another company and now I'm working in a quite large corporation (which is itself a really bad thing, trust me). Then the contact person and the specialist at the client side, who had all required information for the project, left the company. Time past by and the project was more or less in coma. Few months ago things changed and the client got a new specialist and the project started to make progress.
So, for a year, I hated my job. I was doing my project and at the same time attending to smaller projects to keep myself employed and sane. But now I kind of like my job again. The project is almost finished and new challenging tasks are waiting for me.
So, what is the moral of this story: patience will pay off. Sooner or later. Or the alternative will be unemployment (because there is no such thing as a job which is good and enjoyable all the time, as far as I know).
If it's one thing I have learned from the IT industry... it's that your attitude rules your life and how it goes.. your job is money.. money's great when you have obligations to make or even to buy toys. If you have obligations in the way, work your arse off for money to get rid of 'em and choose a lifestyle which will promote happiness, health, and family & friends. You are here once.. it's your road.. steer the damn car already. And don't think this direction is any easier!!
(1st sig) If this were a snappy sig, you'd be reading it right now. (2nd sig) I'm a karma whore. >Insert FUD here
All of you were trolled!!
Moderators: MOD PARENT UP! Common sense has struck this discussion.
Actually, around here most lottery winners keep their jobs. A job gives an identity.
Most Engineers leave school expecting the world to operate in a relatively optimal fashion.
They believe that business problems should be solved by sitting down, itemizing the possible solutions and their pros and cons, and making the best choice. Developing software should simply be a matter of clearly writting out the requirements, and creating a program that satisfies them.
In practice there are almost no organizations bigger than 4 or 5 people that able to operate in such a logical manner.
No organization is immune to sudden changes in direction, arbitrary decision making, poor internal communication and politics. Successful organizations understand that entropy always wins, and cultivate cultures and processes that can be successful despite the chaos that infiltrates all organizations.
Don't let the inefficiency of the world irritate you. Its like getting upset at gravity. Besides, if it were possible to run the world efficiently, there would be far less need for IT professionals.
Find a job with people you like working with, and you can be happy in spite of the chaos. You may even start to enjoy the constant challenges it creates. Just don't try to fight it. Entropy always wins.
Dilbert?
From the posting it really looks like you either is Dilbert or atleast work with him.
.haeger
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
In college I worked at a bus company. This was
good old 1999 and we were converting there
old bus parts system over to baan, which in turn could keep track of everything.. or something like that. So for $11 an hour I got to have conversations like this:
Manager: I need you to look at this printout
from the database and change all of the ones to
zeros in this column using this old text based
app running on a mainframe in Kentucky.
Me: Couldn't the same query generated that report
be used to modify the correct columns.
Manager: huh? Just get to work, shouldn't take
more than 2-3 weeks, its about 80,000 records.
Me: Your fucking kidding me right? Your paying
3 people $11 an hour for days to do something that could be done by one person in 5 minutes.
Manager wonders off, mutters something about
putting this in my file. Interesting prologue,
the term program we used had some kinda funky
VB like script language, so I had it happily
punching stuff into the database while I slept,
read, listened to books on tape etc.. I
stopped the program whenever I had my
strictly supervised 5 minute breaks, 30 minutes
lunch or bathroom breaks.
Seems like I would have been able to move up from
the data entry position to something more fitting. Guess I don't fit in. aww shucks.
I'm not surprised at all that so many /. junkies don't have jobs. Thanks to Clintonomics. That's what happens when you let pinko liberals run the show. I'm lucky enough to still have a job unlike the majority of you lamers.
While I'm walking into the bar to spend a few fat bills on me and a couple of fine honeys, you losers are sitting on the pavement out front with a cup in your hands begging for my change. Guess what? You ain't gettin' shit from me. Loser fucks. That's what you get for wasting all that time and money on becoming an MCSE.
Grow up, you need managers, you want managers so you don't have to get your hands dirty.
i love my job. karma whoring is a great field to be in.
I'm not sure I agree with your statement. Ex-programmers certainly would seem to be great managers for current programmers, but are they really good managers? We give them high marks because they understand us and speak our language. They may even be a bit more reasonable about delivery dates and all.
The problem is, that's not really what makes a good manager. A good manager is someone who motivates you, listens to you, fights for you, and is occasionally willing to tell you to go get stuffed. Management isn't just making your work day more fun, it's hopefully about making the company a little bit better.
Probably the toughest thing a manager has to do is to kill ideas and projects. Especially ones that they find interesting. How many of us will willingly stop work on something that we are enjoying because it won't turn out how we originally planned?
So, yeah, it's great to have a boss who understands you and even understands Dilbert. But in the end, that boss also has to be willing to go out there and fight for the department and the company and make the tough decisions.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
all this is to say that it is better (for the species, for the state, for the municipality, for the business, for the bowling club, for the house, for the bedmates) to invest in yourself and if you become a good manager, well lucky you! maybe you can repay society for helping you attain the right fruit.
thi
Think of all of the people that you know who don't work in IT (exempt any doctors, lawyers, accountants or self-employed people -- these professions are similar to IT in regards to the necessary knowledge base). How many of them have to regularly spend their personal time in order to stay up to date in their profession?
Well, it all depends on what they do. If you're talking about family-practice doctors, divorce lawyers, or small business accounts, well, they don't have to do all that much to stay current. (My father works in ligitation on construction contracts for the state government. Not much changes.) However, if they're on the cutting edge of the field, they probably spend a lot of time keeping up to date.
I'm sure that a lot of intellectual property lawyers are working quite hard these days to keep on top of changing legislation. Doctors at research hospitals often work very hard keeping up-to-date on the latest changes in medicine. And I think a fair number of accounts for consulting firms are working really hard to change practices now in the wake of Enron.
As for me, I'm not an "IT" person, per se. I've moved into the realm of a project manager. However, I read four or five magazines a month, buy big thick tomes to read all the time, and yes, most of it is directly related to my work.
Basically, it all comes down to whether or not your work is a commodity. IT isn't yet, but when it is, things won't change as quickly. The real question is one of why people who do routine crap all the time get paid big bucks just because they're doctors, lawyers, or accountants?
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
Yes yes and yes again. I've never worked anywhere where the management have been thought of highly by the ground troops - or other managers. The porblem is, I believe, that the ability to manage is seen as an innate ability - in reality, of course, it is something that can be learned and doing it well, like programming, takes a long time.
The ISO9001:2000 management system framework goes some way to addressing these things. It demands that managers manage processes and people. You can't get thois accreditation unless external auditors come in and check it for themselves. This kind of management system works pretty well, because it adds value to the company's workings.
But at the end of the day, a company that promotes sales reps on the basis of the amount of money they generate, rather than their ability to be managers, is going to end up spending more time chasing its tail trying to solve internal problems than it is working hard for the customer.
Like others more wise than myself have said..You have a job, take a deep breath and keep working. For silly advice...1) try to change things 2) try to find another job (believe me, these problems are at most companies...)
I work (in Ireland) for a big, evil American multi-national that suffers from the all the symptoms mentioned above. I've also worked startups and governments with the same problems. Big companies seems to think, "we're so big we can make a big decision and go anyway we please". Often going the wrong way with all the geeks shouting "what are doing?". Then geeks get together, start an organisation and think, "we're so geeky we can make a geeky decision and go anyway we please". Often the wrong way as well with no one shouting. I do admire the folks who work for sane organisations and hope one day to be apart of one. One can get quite wound up over these things but I've developed a morbid sense of curiousity to see how horribly wrong it could all go :)
I'm hearing a lot of the same complaints here, and the bottom line is it's easy to be a bad manager.
:-)
I'd recommend reading Peopleware
and asking your manager/team/direct reports to read it too.
It's not a magic bullet for making good managers, but it helps gradually improve things in the workplace, and makes people aware of what works and what doesn't in software development.
Also read the excellent www.joelonsoftware.com for more excellent tips on making software development a fun place to be. Plans, Spec, Schedules and a good bug tracking system...s'all you need
Helps bring a little stability to the consulting career.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
Working for someone else is basically a slave mentality. The whole Dilbert cartoon is founded on this, and it wouldn't be funny if it weren't largely true. Employment offers only the illusion of security -- not actual security, just the illusion. In order to get that illusion, you are treated like chattel, squeezed into cubeland, placed under the supervision of total idiots, given tasks that make no sense and that you don't want to do, expected to kiss ass, handed long lists of ridiculous rules...every kind of demeaning and petty indignity you can think of. Probably every poster on this thread has experienced this. Ask yourself if employment has ever really been a wonderful experience for you in all ways. Did you learn and grow as much as you wanted to? Did you feel in control of what you were doing? Were you doing work you loved? Were you appreciated and respected? Was your boss someone who inspired you, someone you respected and liked? Did management have a powerful vision, which they were executing expertly? Did the company go out of its way in deed, not just word, to show employees they were loved? And of course, did you come out of the experience with financial independence? Hardly anybody can say yes to all these things. Even the best of companies only get half of the above as clear yesses. There is something fundamentally wrong with employment as we know it, and this is evidenced by the bad employment experiences we've all had. Yet we continue to try to fix this thing that is always falling apart. I say it's time to dump the whole miserable mess. Feeling dependent financially on anyone -- any person or any company -- is a slave mentality, and it leads /inevitably/ to being treated poorly and taken advantage of.
You are in business for yourself, whether you are technically working for someone else or not. You want vision? Don't ask someone else for this. Resenting and trying to change your employer is a waste of time. Create your own vision, make something that improves the world and sell it. Bottom line: break out of prison before it kills your spirit. Do whatever it takes to live the way you want to live. Don't accept that this pathetic state we call employment is necessary.
i'm one of these IT managers (started as engineer), working for one of these big "evil" companies, i've got a chance to have at least a bit better life than before. Here around is a small developing country in midEurope. We started here a small office nearly 6 years ago, 2 pplz. The golden time was when the office had 5-7 ppl, all friends from the past, a real team, this was great. Now we are 20 and even in a g00d position i start to dislike the job very hard. Why ? -> 1.strange new employees came, which have NO idea, what's going on, 2. stress and no chance to stop it, 3. "submarine" illness, 4. less and less time for my private life 5.i hate sales which one day sell highend systems and another day Durex condoms and 6. i hate the "distance" which another peoples developed to me as a manager, even though i did not changed the relationsship to them
Where to change ? Not to another big IT company. Probably switch from the "seller" side, to the "buyer" side, maybe out of the IT world. Or even start own small company, more decent conditions but time for my own life. Did anybody of you make a change like this ?
Most management I've come up against has a basic problem. They are trained in management. They are trained to manage a problem exactly one (1) way. It could be a scientific research project, economics research problem, programming project, network infrustructure installation, etc. There is just one way to do it.
Engineers (construction and other allied fields) seem to do it right. You can be management, but you have to be a engineer first.
My best bosses have always been those that are technically qualified (either formally or University of Life, School or Hard Knocks or Kindergarten of getting the shit kicked out of you: Thanks Blackadder) AND Management qualified. Then they know (a) what you're talking about and (b) will generally accept sound technical advice. They will also talk to you before saying yes to their PHB.
Three weeks at a project management couse does not make a manager. Nor does an MBA. I'll have something in between thanks. The 3 weeks is never enough and an MBA obviously sucks whatever you've learnt in real life out you and fill you full of shit.
Doing what you like is great. But management can make it or break it for you. I've had shit jobs propped up by good management and a great team and great, cushy jobs f'dup by total turkeys.
In summary: Consider every job interview a two way street. They're interviewing you. You also sus out everything you can about your potential boss. They (generally) give you the opportunity to ask questions. Find out what experience they have also. If it's only management and accounting qualifications forget it (unless it's an accounting job, DUH!).
Q:I was listening to a CD in Grip and it sounded horrible! What's up? A:Perhaps you are listening to country music
--
You seem to be missing one of the fundamental qualities of life: everyone learns all of the time. There are things that are extremely difficult to learn on one's own: the in depth knowledge, which must often be learned in the classroom.
Other things can be obtained with a less in-depth analysis, often based upon a more simplistic understanding of the hard stuff.
For example, once you understand statistical analysis of Neural Networks, economic formulas can just be light reading from the library; you've got all the needed skills.
As far as managing people, that's certianly not something you need to train for in that manner.
When I got to college, I took a program called L.E.A.D., which teaches basic leadership and management skills. I felt like I was learning rudimentary psych stuff - stuff you could teach a 10 year old.
So, whats the difference between a driven Computer Scientist, or a driven Communication Theorist, or a driven Mathematician, and someone trained as management or in Commerce? The commerce guy doesn't know anything that is difficult to learn by simply reading.
Why do you even need a college degree for that?
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
The best Project manager I ever had was a Guy whose previous experience was Project Managing the construction Oil Refineries. He listened to me, made me justify my estimates, both phases where completed on time to a high standard and with the minimum of stress. The worst was an ex-carpet shop manager, (Yes I know absurd). In my experience to many PM's from an IT background are failed Technical Staff.
So rather than selecting a job, I now try to select my PM.
I've worked in a number of different industries, in capacities from grunt to general manager, and my take on this is that *every* business project goes through multiple changes, last-minute "fill the gaps," SWAG, misdirected and incomplete thinking, and all the management problems that software engineers love to hate.
The difference between software and most other types of projects, is that usually there is no empirical test of the outcome of the project vs. its intended outcome, as there almost always is with a piece of code.
Did the marketing project achieve its objectives? Was it functionally complete? Does it have bugs? Does it break under stress? Who the heck knows? It's simply impossible to measure the results of most other business projects, because they don't have the defined inputs/processing/outputs of software.
Consequently, bluffing at the micro- and macro- level is inserted into almost every business project, from prepping for the meeting with the boss, to buying the competitor. And far from this ever being revealed, most people don't even realize they're doing it themselves. It's just human nature.
When you apply that sort of mentality to software, and technical project management in general (does the 777 fly or not?) you almost invariably a) run over time and over budget b) de-scope the project or c) end up with an unholy mess on your hands, because your fuzzy thinking has been exposed by the rigors of the product.
So you blame technology, blame the technologists, and never examine the root of the problem -- the fact that you've been, consciously or unconsciously, half-assing it all your business career, just like everyone else in business.
If business people in general applied to business processes 1/10 the conceptual and practical thinking, constant learning, and focus that software engineers put into their code, the entire enterprise would collapse in a heap of disbelief and self-loathing, and then re-emerge like a phoenix, unrecognizably well-run.
Look for it about 2110, at the earliest.
Hell, no one can be so stupid as you say your managers are! how can you be so negative? C'mon, be a team player and stop posting crap. Wait a minute...oh gawd, the drugs They give me are affecting my thinking once again. I'll start anew... I work for a multinational (european) corp. I'd rather not name and my daily job is surviving the incompetence of my bosses, starting from the guy I have sitting on top (yeah, I did say sitting, not working or managing) upwards to our CEO and board of directors. And if you add stupidity, laziness, greed, bad manners, disrespect for workers and lack of common sense, you'll get a fine idea of what management in this company is. Ah, did I mention the top mgrs. are grabbing 80% salary raises and larcenous kickbacks while 25000-30000 of us are being fired? (I'm not saying there are not good managers...of course they are, only they *never* work in your corp...Murphy's Law again) Solutions? Either start your own job -pretty hard to do, believe me -- commit suicide or mass murder -- again hard, someone has to clean up after you're done -- or become a manager yourself -- that's easy, start licking asses and sayin' "yes, master" and leave your conscience at home. Talkin' seriously, my only advice is survive, enjoy your life outside the office and try to start something on your own that's more rewarding. good luck. P.S. Yes, I did try to change jobs. They blocked me twice when trying to move inside the company and I have found nothing better outside. It seems that stupidity and lack of good thinking are more widespread than I thought.
I am still in high school but work as a technication for a local computer store. They send me on mostly house calls or give me any job involving unix, mac or networking. For the most part I only work when I feel like. My boss is never rude to me and understands I know more than him. It sure as hell beats what my friends do. They all work at a grocery store or something like that. I bet all you out there wish you had my job when you were my age, so I just want to rub it in all your faces.
They wouldn't *be* middle managers if they had drive, vision and talent.
Leave. Become a consultant and read Dilbert.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Do you have a lisp? or did you mean "myth". Learn to spell.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
Did you get that memo on the TPS Reports? ... No?.... I will email it to you again... Riiiight.....
I couldn't fail to disagree with you any less.
Just like any professional cert, it is a vehicle and not the destination.
I know this is about the tenth time I've said this on Slashdot, but it's true. Japan is so desperate for IT people, the government is considering "importing" about 700,000 foreigners per year to fill these jobs.
'Course at present time you need to be able to read and speak Japanese and handle your own visa, but I have yet to be turned down for a technical job here.
Heck, my department just hired a kid to work in the networking department who barely knows how to work a mouse. He'll be configuring our Cisco routers. We're desperate I tell you!
Come to think of it, in both jobs I had here no one ever asked if I could read and write before giving me the job (most Americans can't), and were suprised afterwards when I could.
See for yourself on the Japanese national job database (Hello Work).
I just did a national search for general IT jobs and turned up 294724 hits.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
This type of behaviour from management is pretty typical no matter what kind of work you do. I think they're just generally out of touch with reality.
If you had agreed to three weeks, and then taken six weeks anyway, would you have kept your job? Sometimes, an "aggressive" schedule + schedule overrun is easier to sell to managers/customers than a realistic initial estimate.
I'm not saying that you should exploit this - you shouldn't. But its a common anti-pattern to watch out for if you are a manager/customer yourself.
Stupidity is mis-underestimated.
College is for suckers.
..mostly because of the original idea(s) at the right time, or because of a new/semi-new spin to an old idea( i cannot discount the power of Sales& Marketing) ;)
As long as you are working in a company, in matters of vision and strategy, dont misalign yourself with the management.Iits a practical advice!
If your ideas are powerful and accurate enough go try and make your own company. If you succeed it would prove(among other few million things) that you were right and the old sods sucked. If you fail, well!!!
Anyways the people who are running the company are responsible for its health. If they cannot "optimally" nurture, manage and channelize their core competencies(technological or otherwise) then sooner or later they will go down.
I recall doing the technical interview of one guy who in my opinion was very hirable but to my surprise the manager above me didnot hire him!! His explanation was that the said person far exceeded the "average-chain" of the company and would soon be frustrated and disgruntled with his work!!! So maybe you, my dear friend, beat the "average-chain" and maybe you "should" make your company!
Voltaire: God is dead.
God: Voltaire is dead!
And that my friends is why I quit my job and started my own company.
I agree totally. That's why I really don't want to work for anyone any longer. But I figure, the more you understand these issues, that they really are actual issues, you become very skilled, so skilled that you are paid to be frustrated, not to hack up some code that works because they constantly change their minds at the last minute, or even worse, their direction - like you pointed out.
Now tell me again that programmers make good managers, and I will laugh in your general direction. The best managers I've had knew nothing about programming, but they knew how to ask the right questions (when will it be done, what do you need to do it faster, how can I help you achieve your goals) and leave the programming to the experts.
The interactive way to Go -- http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/
Is this fun?
How does this contribute to my resume?
What is the difference between what I am being paid currently and what I am worth/could get elsewhere?
No company has or ever will look out for my personal interests as well as I can. There is no job security, in fact there never was such. In the long run only your own professionalism and competence really counts
These three factors juggle - If it's not fun, then money becomes more important and comes up in priority. If it is fun and contributing to a long term future (is adding to the resume in impressive ways) then money becomes third as in the list. Stupid mindless tasks demand more money and more fun either in the tasks themselves or somewhere else.
Also part of what I will put up with is what other possibilities exist. So far I have found another job first before resigning, I always keep my resume up to date, and I think looking to see what you are really worth and who will really hire you is vital to managing your profession - makes negotiating for a real market valued increase much easier when you do not feel trapped - plus interviewing is its own skill and worth keeping on top of anyway. If you are really unhappy (i.e., it's not fun) go see what else is out there, then decide whether or not it is worth putting up with (resume?, money?) You may have to stay where you are and try to bring up two of the three factors without changing jobs.
I created my current job, basically network guru at an engineering company. I work on the fun, hard interesting projects, then turn over the implementation and day to day operations. Right now the priorities align as above, it is FUN, it is contributing rapidly to a cutting edge resume, and I am paid well. I still look at other jobs and postings, but only as a matter of principle right now.
I also have the occasional nightmare where I dream I came into work and was locked out... Again, the only true assurance of any security is your personal competence and value
Every once in a while you really have to be able to look up and wonder, "And they pay me to do this?", and have that be a good thing, 'cause you would probably do it for fun and the challenge anyway.
* I did
gotta love
+----------- - - - . auximage
My manager is a psychologist gone programmer. He reads a lot about anything that has to with management and new technologies, I often find him knowing more about a subject than me (computation science major).
These kinds of people are the ideal managers, they know about people and they know about the work that has to be done.
Remember that he wrote "The Prince" when he had just been brutally tortured and then exciled. He starts out chapter XIX on "How to avoid being despised or hated" by saying something to the meaning of "I'll deal with this very quickly" and then goes on to write what is the longest chapter of the book. It deals with conspiracies and has tips on how a ruler can avoid or defeat them. Which of course can also be read as "what to avoid when conspiring". Also, every single ruler he takes up as an example in that chapter ends up dead. Go figure.
Been living in a bubble or something? Welcome to the real world, the only way you'll like mgmnt is if you are it - so start your own company.
I work as a "system administrator" (this title is misleading, it's really just help desk support, plus some administrative tasks) on a contract for the military. The management style here could be described as "winging it," on a good day. There are only two people on the contract, with a user base of 400 people, and a single government employee in the office with us, but the "task leader" for the project insists on all tasks being shuttled through him. You can imagine the absurdity of it.
.
GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE: Say, task leader, we need to get these computers deployed.
TASK LEADER: Well, *technically* we can't do that because that contract that I'm not supposed to have access to says , and even though my job description doesn't list contract negotiation, I think we need to see about including in the next contract. However, I think for today, we can go ahead and do that. Hey, I need you to
I've worked for some doozies, but this guy takes the cake as far as management goes. The contracting company allows for this kind of situation, though, since they seem to encourage keeping things quiet, so as not to upset the "customer" (i.e. the government). I don't know that any of the contract leaders I've worked with since I've been contracting for the military have had any training in managing people, and the tasks suffer for it. The work gets performed, but management ends up alienating the employees. I guess if the task is performed, it doesn't really matter how it gets done, right?
- jmm
The client is quite different from the corporate system. Granted, I could get paid more in a corporation, but working at a University has several benefits.
1. There is no real pressure to *make money* when directing a project. In the technology sections, the point is generally to make things more efficient, more stable, and more cost-effective. This means upper management decisions are slightly less inane.
2. Easy access to education. I'm one of those people who think when you stop learning, you're dead. Now, this doesn't require formal education, but 3 free credit hours doesn't hurt.
3. Easy job mobility. If I get tired of my job, I can just move to another position, another department, or another line of work entirely. All of this, while still keeping the same health,retirement,etc benefits.
Part 1
An organisation is like a tree full of monkeys - all on different levels, some climbing up. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes.
Part 2
All the time, the monkeys on the top will get the fruits first, and most of the time, they will eventually produce SHIT for all the monkeys below. And all the time, that's what the monkeys below will get.
Part 3
For those monkeys who are climbing up, they have to first kiss plenty of ass in order to move up. How high they climb, will have to depend on how good they kiss. And always if the one on top will not kiss any ass, his ass will get KICKED !!!
Part 4
During times of great difficulties and hardship, the monkeys on the top may fall a few branches down and hit the monkeys below. The monkeys below will be fallen upon and eventually some will fall off the tree, as in retrenched. As compensation these monkeys that fell off get to keep the fruits that were shaken off the tree during the commotion. The tree becomes lighter and life slowly returns to normal.
And that my friends is what we call a corporate lifecycle.
You should have asked how much time it would add to the project, having to find or hire someone else to do it. But, yeah, if someone's like that, you're probably better off elsewhere. Good luck.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
No, I hate my fucking job to be honest! It's because I have to deal with Windows crap every now and then. I've been using computers since I was 11 (and that was in 1985) and everytime I need to fix Windows related problems I go nuts because NO MATTER HOW EXPERIENCED YOU ARE, Windows's gonna make you look like a holodummy! A simple task of program installation can sometimes be a nightmare because of corrupted registry and such. It's not very nice to explain to a corporate CEO why you, who's supposed to be an expert, can not install a single program on his laptop while he's looking over your shoulder!!! Situations like that eventually KILL ME! They don't understand tech-talk, it's no use to try to explain them why something seemingly simple task can not be done because Windows has corrupted this or that. It's time for me to move on, get the fucking rid of Windows environments and get a job (..and GET A LIFE!) where I will administrate Linux only.
Thank Gawd for bad management. It's the reason the IT 'industry' needs contractors like myself.
I was out of work for 7 mos after a long-term consulting contract ran out in 2000. New consulting opportunities didn't materialize and last summer I was laid off from the consulting company I had worked at for 6 years. New work was non-existant (contract or W-2). My old contract employer, whom I was so glad to leave for just the reasons you describe, made me an offer and I jumped at it. And you know, it's working out. Nothin' like poverty to change your attitude. The same old bozos are in charge, decisions are even less coherent, but that paycheck makes up for it :-)
Heck yes I like my job.
A couple of recommendations (if you're looking for a new position)
1: Never work for a non-technical manager.
Rather: never work for a manager who doesn't know that your tech abilities are more up to date than his.
3: Make sure (s)he does at least some of the software.
No no no! A manager does not have to do software. In fact, it's almost better if he doesn't do it. He needs to trust you and your estimates, he needs to spend his time talking to the customer with your estimates in hand, educate the customer with respect to the risks, and manage the expectations when the customer decides that other aspects than the technical ones have a higher priority.
4: Make sure (s)he has a spine, and is capable of forming relationships with other human beings.
This one is very important. He needs to work on a level of mutual respect with the customer. Sure, try and be friendly, but when he stoops to kissing ass, respect will be lost and the customer will not accept any negative reports, estimates or risk analysis.
It's just about enough to make you scream.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Isn't the best thing that people have to have some sort of technical / management qualification to even be considered for jobs like these. One thing I've noticed over the years as a software engineer is that management is just ignored and tolerated and you tend to manage yourselves. Which is ridiculous.
I quit five jobs until I found one where IT is given high credibility. Of course, I'm a VP now, so actually part of the problem I suppose. Over to the Dark Side and all that...
Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
Start venting.....
I'm in a similar position! Management change their minds every hour almost! Projects are patched together in the messiest way due to managements idea of keeping clients happy....
The developers quote 4 weeks to do a job, management divide it by two and then take off an extra couple of days to make the clients happy. The result? Tired, stressed coders and sloppy code!
To make matters worse...
Development team = 2
Management team = 3!!!
That is the result of management knowing nothing about the development cycle and in reality being nothing more than overpaid salesmen with a dictionary full of acronyms!
Venting complete!
Not sure I agree with that one. While the l337 hax0r crowd might have poor social skills and be very proud of what they can achieve single-handed, real projects are rarely the domain of a single person any more. I'd rather have a team of five competent programmers with good interpersonal skills than a team of five top hackers who didn't speak to each other, and it's a very easy decision to make.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I wouldn't say I've been liking work, Bob!
-nd
No, the only ones with jobs are the ones that didn't migrate from being burger flippers one day, move to San Jose during the dot-com boom, and become Senior Web Architects after reading a book on html or "Network Engineers" after getting their CCNA. ;-) Those people are now astonished that they can't get a job making $150k a year anymore in San Jose! Well duh, no shit. Those jobs were all artificially created by a boom of clueless companies that needed warm bodies to fill jobs. If your major skills are flipping burgers and writing html code then it's time to fill out that Jack-in-the-Box application and pray you're good enough. This isn't meant as a flame, just an honest opinion of someone who didn't leave the midwest and get sucked into that mess. I still have a fine job. :-)
I work in a small (40-ish) company that's still having trouble growing as far as management skill and style goes. Life tends to be cyclical, some up some down.
Our customers are old-world big capital manufacturers. They have been going through so many 're-structuring' phases that the people at the bottom end of the company feel rather beaten. Nobody cares about making the company better, innovating, or even trying their best. The bottom line is survive without taking the rap.
In the last 3 years I've seen one company go through 4 CEO's, each bringing a mindset from a different industry. They 'streamline' (read rape and pillage on behalf of the stock holders) while the people with real industry knowledge (this is a complex chemical related process) disappear.
The bottom line... If there's somebody out there in industry who's happy in their job, takes pride in their work and their employer, and wakes up every morning excited about a day at work, Speak Up Now!
It's scary how well the story captured my own feelings about work.
I thing the major reason tech companies are like this is the environment they "grew up" in. Consider:
Most tech companies started in the 1960's to 1980's. While there were some downturns during this time, the overall pattern was growth growth growth. So, no matter how incompetent the company management, many companies survived just because the environment wouldn't let them fail.
Now, your typical manager will feel that all successes were due to his decisions (and, by the way, so will the average tech, or indeed the average human). So, consider a company that is still around today - the manager will feel that he must be doing something right.
Now, consider the rate of change in the tech field. It is almost impossible to have any foresight in this biz without a GREAT DEAL of technical knowledge. Being able to see the 3-5 years down the road to be able to make good plans is just about beyond the average manager. Instead, they focus on making plans 6-12 months down the road.
When times are good, this is enough.
Times are less than good now.
So, companies that have been able to survive are starting to die off. The managers are frantic - get me something NOW, OR ELSE!
It's like animals - when times are good, even the sick, lame and stupid can survive, can get enough to eat and avoid being eaten in turn.
Then the drought hits. The animals ALL get frantic about finding food.
Wait until after the drought, then look for the survivors that are healthy. Work for them.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I started a journal tonight for thinking out loud my woes about work. It's a bit preachy and rambling, doesn't make a huge amount of sense and worded in case my boss sees it - but there you go http://www.livejournal.com/users/ferris_oxide/
I've vote for mostly. I work "mostly" as a programmer, but this is not the reason for my vote. I read the post after voting and realized why I didn't vote yes. I've also noticed the high score in mostly.
In my job (nuke plant) the promotional procession has always been that the long serving engineers get promoted to Managers. In general, this leads to a bunch of micromanagers who want to solve everything, but don't have much for management skills and fail to see the overall picture.
I think this is changing somewhat -- they are trying to bring in management types, rather than automatically promote engineers. I'm not sure which is worse!
A post here mentioned the satisfaction of a non-profit job, where people really seemed to "care". I've been loosely following the whole indymedia phenomenon, and I figure that that would be one of the most interesting types of situations to work in. You know - showing up The Man (tm), giving people a voice, revealing the truth, hacking together ad-hoc information networks from donated/scrounged hardware. You know, actually doing "Stuff that Matters".
Anyway, does anybody have any other reports from the non-profit trenches, or from indymedia itself. Is life sustainable, or do you just do it as a hobby/volunteerism?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Your damn right I love my job.
END COMMUNICATION
Being as I watch pr0n most of the day, I'd say I love my job.
Well, there are times when I help out the 90 year old lady getting her Mac LC II with 4 megs of ram to work on her DSL.
But looking at pr0n while helping them helps so much!
http://www.xpurple.com
I was a graphic artist/web designer/creative director. I got fired/laid off, which was a good thing because I did not like my job. After several months of looking for jobs that weren't there -- I went back into my old profession.
Nursing.
And I am loving it. The work is much harder, now if I make a mistake I kill someone! There is no restart button on a person. I get paid hourly so I get lots of overtime pay, I work 12 hour days so I only work 3 days a week so I can do freelance graphics -- if I want to. I have lots of job security, there is a huge nursing shortage. And, I am helping people (that is pretty nice).
Oh yeah, I also get to poke people with needles!!! Woo hoo!!!
Management must require some sort of lobotomization of its subjects, is all I can figure. Where I work we recently underwent some "dumbsizing", leaving the job of engineering manager to - get this - the head of the quoting group (seldom competent to correctly implement even that task). I'm left in a position where a review would be completely pointless, as there isn't anyone left qualified to review my work. The only decent manager I've had here was formerly an engineer as well, and could understand what the real roadblocks were. They let him go early on, though. Apparently upper management could'nt stomach his assessment of their planning (or lack thereof). The Manager's Philosophy: We don't understand it, therefore it can't be that difficult.
Mmmmm... Instant Karma! Now with Tantric Marshmallows!
Yeah right, wasn't that what people used to think in the 80ies hacking away at Cobol and not thinking too much about the Year 2000 issue?
Hurricane Application Group, Dept of Meteorology Control, Ministry of Proactive Defense
But I also just quit today! :)
Peace, Love, Games
The VP of IS where I work, use to be a lower-level manager for us. But he knew how to work the system. He quit from here and was hired back as the VP. (I guess he had some sort of Business degree). What's nice is that we got to now him on a relaxed level, before he had power. So now it's still very easy to talk to him, and he knows our abilities. So unreasonable demands just don't come up. But since he is the one who signs our paychecks we definitly give him the respect he deserves. It's kind of weird, but all of us in my dept (we're not at headquarters), look foward to seeing him visit. It's a nice feeling.
This is of course because he's naturally a nice guy.
But I could definitly see that if a BOFH became head. uhg...
Sean D.
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
Sql's Sig: "There is an attitude amongst self-proclaimed "geeks" than anyone who isn't a "geek" is automatically stupid. Let me give you a clue: one good manager is worth more to a company than 10 programmers that only know code and not business."
..."
Sql's User Bio: "I am a software engineer working in the financial services sector with AVT Technologies [avt.co.uk]. Previously, I was a management/technology consultant at AGENCY
You ultra right libertarians sure like to stroke your egos!
the term "pecking order" does not come from humans...
"Alpha Male" is a term from ape societies.
a company is usually just an adaptation of ancient structures, and guess what ? in animal societies there is also a constant testing of the leader's authority, or in other words, the animal "vasals" are constantly disatisfied:
"no animal is comfortable in its place in society"
the best thing evolutionary seems to me to be able to work in hirarchies, but have some measure of discontent.
Working for necessity's mother.
I work at Xtramart, it's a gas station/convinience store in New England.
:P
I left college (umass) mostly because of depression.
It's alright for a toilet job, I don't have to do much. I get paid $9/hr at night for staying awake basically.
I'm applying at some of the local PDs for a civilian dispatch job. That is slightly more stressful, but 15-25/hr.
I can get by on 9/hr, but how am I supposed to buy toys with that?
--- Do you believe in the day?
Couldn't agree more. I'm working on a State's child support system project. Same problems as any complex organization and project, but very satisfying. Most people actually care!
I worked my way through school by cooking at various restaurants and ski resorts. After college I was offered a chance to open my own restaurant with my fiancee. We tried to no avail for a haute cuisine establishment to survive in the rural area that we lived in. I left that to find work in Boston, the money was ok, but the work hours (100+ hrs/week) wasn't commensurate to the quality of life I wanted for my new family. I returned back to the rural area I grew up in, and got a job at the upstart ISP's helldesk doing tech support taking a BIG pay cut.
Over the past 5 years I've risen through the company to network/systems administration.
(yeah the stress is about the same, but finally the hours allow me to actually have a semblance of a life)
The important thing I learned is that very few people can have a career in their former "hobbies" and I truly believe that if you can make a living doing something that you really enjoy it can make up for a lot. Sure I could make more money in a larger environment, but you really have to look beyond the dollar signs to things that make it beneficial.
Remember folks as a former sous chef told me a long time ago "We work for our time off with ourselves and our families, not the other way around"... just something to keep in mind.
Not everyone is fortunate to have work that they truly enjoy and when I start to doubt my job, I just remember the lack of life I had when I was a chef, and that really helps me out.
-- Life: Hate the Game... Love the cereal
They pay you for time and effort you most likely wouldn't give otherwise. Your number 1 goal financially and at work should be retirement, my friend. Or you will just have to keep selling that booty....
a couple of weeks ago. Next week is my last here.
Hazzah!
If you don't like your job, get a new one!!
Allan
I hear alot of you are complaining about your jobs, well here at Rice University we are looking for top-notch linux admins who have at least 1 year linux clustering experience. Its a great environment and you meet some very smart people. If your interested, please contact me at bclem@rice.edu
A big part of the problem, in a lot of organizations, is that people make it into management positions based on tenure rather than ability. Too often these are people who themselves recognize that they couldn't cut it in the subordinate position so they focus their energy on moving into a managerial position. Take a sales organization, the people who are doing well in sales have a good set of skills, they're being compensated well, so they stay put or move to a company that has more to offer (often a company with better management.) Those who are struggling focus their efforts at climbing up the food chain by moving into a management position frequently managing those who out performed them in the previous position. The best managers are those with the ability to teach others how to manage themselves. These people are few and far between.
PegQuin--I've got a sneakin' suspicion
If you don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half assed.
=================
Unix is very user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are.
It seems cliche, but at my job all of the responsibility for driving the project is placed on me. I perform the initial interviews, draft requirements, design, code, and roll the product out. It's great from an experience perspective, but it also means that I am responsible for identifying potential issues, making those issues known to a large group of coworkers and managers, managing a resolution for those issues, and followups/escalation. It doesn't sound like much at first, but as a simple developer it's very hard to make a V.P. prioritize your needs.
In the end my manager really only gathers status reports and takes them to board meetings. Which is all I can expect, give my manager's technical experience and expertise. And some things have gotten better--the company is beginning to realize that project failures are not my fault--but no steps have been made to fix the situation.
I'm not unhappy, just dissappointed. Disillusioned, if you will. It would be nice to work for a company like Sun or IBM, with the experience, vision, and organization they have, but not everyone can.
I note two things for this discussion: 1. Correct assumption is that most "managers" don't know about or care about technology, they want it to work - and elegant, proper code is not a concept they understand because... 2. A public company is tied into equity markets RULED by quarterly and annual results, and even private firms design compensation schemes for management based on quarterly / annual results. If you are the calendars' whipped bee-yotch, even where it makes NO sense (most busines cycles do NOT correspond to hard and fast calendar dates), you will drag all your people down the everything-is-a-firedrill wormhole with you - but they get a different bonus plan. A well-executed plan / project takes time to plan, execute and follow through on. Find a good manager who is allowed and incentivised to plan past the next 90 days and you have found a boss to grab and hold. You will also have to insert another $1.00 to play again.
But..mmm..but..I just....umm...But...oo...don't take my....but please....not my red stapler....i can shoot you all...mmm...
Tim Dorr
Owner/Manger
A Small Orange
> That's why a military toilet seat costs six hundred bucks.
:^)
> Because you can at least be sure that your ass will fit, that its
> over a latrine and that it will have a hole in it.
>
> With civilian (mis-)management, they'd skip cutting out the hole
> and justify it as cutting out the cost. And there'd be shit
> everywhere.
Believe me, as an employee of a gov't contractor the reason a toilet seat costs $600 isn't because it's going to work, it's because the military/gov't will pay that amount. Cash heavy, expertise shy; that's been my second-hand experience of the people that award government contracts.
Naturally we don't make nearly enough where I work.
I envy the order that exists in the military, but they seem to have only [perhaps knowingly] shifted, rather than eliminated, their mismangement from the work that gets done to the amount they're willing to pay for it. In an "economy" that doesn't measure success from the bottom line but also from ensuring every dollar gets spent in order to get funding the next year, "worth" is a very weirded bit of langauge.
To briefly tie back in to the original topic, this is what makes working at a gov't installation so difficult. We can go two years and hundreds of thousands over budget (ie, extra years of funding) if it makes everyone "happy". Form over function. There is no bottom line for the customer [wrt dollars].
The fact that people can deliver a [proverbial] low-bid toilet seat for $300 with no hole shows just how skewed the economics of gov't contracts have become. I hate it when economists say that "the market will sort it out", but the open market is certainly a more efficient, if ultimately horribly more confusing, method of determining worth.
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
I was a temp for 6 months. Now I'm permanent and in charge of IT. Next Month I start Migrating the Servers to Linux. In two months Work should be pretty good. When all the business apps are available to move the desktops over to Linux, I will be truly happy. In the meantime Crossover for VB and Crystal Reports where are you?
Need help finding the flow? http://www.myspace.com/naturalismandbalance
I work for a restuarant co., support about 100 users, many of them just type orders at a terminal tho. Most of my work is done in the corporate offices. My boss understands (and agrees) that they are third in importance to me behind my fiance and school. Durning the job interview --"can you fix our network?" I told them I felt it was more important to know how to find the solution than to know it off the top of your head. I was hired, on the spot, based upon this line!
As it happens, I'm giving my boss one month's notice today. I'm a Systems Engineer at a large office document corporation (some people call us The Document Company) and while I like the work, I hate the culture. It's like time warping back to 1960. Anyone know of any good software firms in the Boston/Providence area that could use a Systems Engineer? My one weakness is that while I can program, I have little direct experience doing so and I'm not sure I want to develop for a living. But Systems Engineering is rare in most small companies. Am I screwed?
Was that out loud?
Honestly, guys/gals, out of the 5 software companies I have worked for - only 2 have had clear visions. That resulted from program managers (some might call them producers) who (a)knew the area of software we were dealing with from the user side and (b)were capable of producing a spec that didn't change once it had been approved (occasional change control requests happened but they were few and far between.) That was it, that was the key. People who knew their field. They weren't necessarily good managers; however, because they were confident in their desires for the product, they found it easy to communicate their desires and their enthusiasm was infectious. They didn't need to read '14 points' or other dumbass management books to supervise the outcome, or micro-manage us. They simply gave us a clear vision and let us engineer a solution to their needs. The other 3 places, they had no real idea what they wanted except to be a software company... LOL!
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Now that I'm done with the flamebait, a little advice. Re-read you post. Take an employer's point of view. Would you hire that person?
Do I like my job? Well, yeah, I guess... But, actually, I've been so focused on getting my business up and running that it's hard to give 100% to my job, which actually pays the bills.
This is difficult because of the many inquiries we receive for our services but we simply don't have enough customers yet to allow me to leave my current job to devote myself full-time to my business.
I'm truly grateful to be employed. I feel for those who are currently not.
I simply need to reprioritize what's important to me, what puts food on the table and what could be an excellent opportunity down the road.
Did the (non-goverment) companies you worked for make money? If yes, then the managers were doing their job. If no, then they weren't. Your personal job satisfaction isn't important to the company, despite what you think. The bottom line is.
From my own personal experience, I can tell you that there are a lot of perfectionists out there, who would prefer to spend every resource a company has making a product exactly right before releasing it. That kind of thinking will drive a company under in the long term (as will the opposite end of the spectrum). At some point you have to accept an inferior solution, because it needs to be accomplished in the short term to acheive longer term goals, despite the cost.
Spoken like a true Perl programmer, eh?
I got fired for crossing my manager. He wisely chose to run Apache on Windows NT. I vigorously recommended Apache on Linux. Within a few days, I was called into an insidious sounding meeting, whereupon I was told I was dismissed because "my skills were not...".
I didn't stick around to listen. I walked out, yelling "I've been f***ing sacked!" I told my manager that the sales staff wanted to hit him, because of frustration with their lousy laptop computers. At the door he said "Goodbye" in a superior way, I put my finger up at him and said, "F*** you."
I work for a company just like the one you describe. The programmers are miserable.
I, however, am a system administrator. My job consists of keeping servers running, and then when something breaks, I figure out whose code broke, page them, and go back to bed.
Thus, the bad decisions management makes about the programming projects result in greater need for my services, but don't really frustate me directly that much on a daily basis, with an occasional exception.
This is an interesting topic - one that I've heard from software engineers quite a few times before this. Regardless, I'm not sure that this complaint is unique to the software industry. Ostensibly, managers have had some exposure to the engineering that they're managing; in other worsd, they have an IDEA of what their people are doing. Yet, how often have engineers had ANY exposure whatsoever to the responsibilities/expectations of a manager? I'm educated as both an engineer and a "manager," and switching between the two personas is difficult. But what I find most often is my engineering mind saying "...I know this works. It's got everything we'd ever need, and is better than anything we've done before." While that happens, my management mind says "This is not financially justifiable, and if unsuccessful, will result in blah blah.." Bottom line: we need ENGINEERING MANAGERS - engineers with exposure to financial/program management mindsets. Similarly, we engineers need to make an effort to understand WHY decisions are made above us. After all, if the company goes belly up on account of a bad management decision, the manager's out of a job too - right?
Chicks dig my good /. karma.
Where I work, The management actually has a clue! Most former developers (some were even good developers!!), they understand the line between getting the job done right and getting the job done on time and under budget.
But it's the customer demands that get in the way. We have years of metrics to back up our productivity. Yet, the customer decides "we don't like those numbers, make your lines of code estimate smaller."
So what does one do? You document your original estimate, say "fine, we'll try for this new estimate" and when you fail to meet it you are already 80% done (no sense in cancelling) and you are, oddly enough, on track with your original estimate. Funny how that works!
Can your management can handle a shizophrenic customer who's needs change on a whim? Bad management will propagate the insanity down to the developers. Good management will bear (bare? Bayer?) the stress themselves and insulate the developer. That is the mark of good management.
And yes, my manager is da bomb!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I'm actually giving my boss notice today, because we're moving out of the area, but I won't be sorry to get out of here. Everything described in this post is true for me as well - no vision, no creativity, no organizational skills, and no attention paid to the quality employees who make this place work. As my father-in-law is fond of saying, "Mediocrity is incapable of recognizing excellence," and it's very, very true.
Anyone in the Boston/Providence area want to hire a Systems Engineer with CMM and embedded software design experience? Worth a try. :)
Was that out loud?
Hey,
You can start your own business. Or like, you can punch a clock, and when those stupid decisions get made just smile and implement them and leave at five and never work weekends. Also, let them know that you won't play ball when it comes time to figure who di what wrong.
It's all very seedy and gross, you shoul just quit altogether and become a drunk.
Paraphrasing: You don't have to enjoy your job. That's why they call it work. The idea that work is supposed to be fulfilling is a new idea that's basically hogwash. I thought it made sense. It has made my job a lot more bearable now that I look at it that way.
The biggest problem in my dept (& company) is its failure to lay the smackdown on its prima donna coders. Unfortunately our prima donnas have greatly inflated opinions of themselves and their skills, and when the time comes to produce there's more talk than walk. Many times we less vocal coders (who are more than equal in skill) wind up picking up the pieces of their failed attempts at providing a product. While management tends to get less-than-gently informed about these incidents (often by me), I rarely witness any repercussions to our smack-talking "code cowboys".
-----------------------
To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
The ITLAB rocks! :)
Can you see Iron City here?
My dream is to own my own business. That is currently a reality, but I do not make enough money from the business to bring home the bacon, in fact, I make nothing because all of our profit is rolled right back into the biz for supplies, advertising, etc. So, for the time being, I am working full time, which takes away from time I could be using to generate sales. For now, this is a "Catch 22". However, someday I think I will be able to break free of my current position and be self sustaining. Unfortunately, part of the problem is that we picked the "worst" time economically to start our business, which is computer sales and service. So, to make a long story short, I voted "Yes", but someday, I really want to be my own boss.
The bottom line is that as a developer/sa/whatever, you do not have the "big picture" and unfortunately, you can't. Upper mgt doesn't have the "small picture" and unfortunately they can't.
The bottom line is that business decisions drive the business, not programing decisions.
Having moved from grunt into middle (yuk!) management, I am beginning to see these things. What looks like stupid or misguided upper management decisions are usually due to some constraints you don't know about and should not know about for many different reasons.
/g
I would have to tend to agree with you. I spent 9 years in the Navy and got out last summer where I took on the position w/ a start-up ISP/Software firm that I had been consulting for. I figured that a small company would be a good place to start after my transition into civilian life. Boy, was I wrong. Not only was there no direction, but there was a complete lack of responsibility from anyone. I was miserable. So what did I do? I quit and started consulting for a larger company until they finally hired me in full time. This place does have a lot of misdirection from management, but it's a heck of a lot easier to try change the minds of management. They, for the most part, seem willing to listen, even tho our CFO has no clue about what we're talking about, but likes everyone to think he does.
Although I miss the structure of the military, I have adjusted to this type of environment.
In short, you're never going to completely happy with your job, but if you're miserable, do everyone a favor and find something new.
I'm on a project where the management isn't necessarily always the problem. At times our project's direction seems foggy at best, but other times the path we're on seems clear.
Co-Workers can often times be a bigger problem. If you don't believe in the abilities of your coworkers (because they hard code things like user ids into regression tests) then you've got a bigger problem. No amount of management is going to fix incompetence. Layoffs fix incompetence...
However, there is another aspect to his. A double whammy if you will. If your team is poor, and your management doesn't stand up to them, you have a much bigger problem. I'm on a team where a small group of people carry 80% of the load. Yet in meetings, when the people who pull 12 - 14 hour days consistently argue with those pulling 6 - 8 hour days, management doesn't back us. Too democratic of a management style can lead to worker frustration and eventually to resignation.
And losing a 12 - 14 hour a day worker isn't a good thing from a business standpoint.
Heh. Oh well, let 'em sink they own ship!
Do it for da shorties
I have only a couple of observations to add here... they don't match neatly into any running thread so here goes. (BTW I answered "yes" in the current "do you like your job poll".)
/etc/asdfasdf.conf file and remove the # in front of the the line that says '# do enable feature they didn't know they wanted'." Second to that is being able to say, "I've got most of the pieces, give me a few days to assemble and test." Pull off things like that a couple of times and then when you do get the request for something really hard, you'll be believed.
1) If you are really frustrated by management, find a smaller firm. Look for small tech firms that existed before the 90's tech boom. I worked at a firm that was born in the 80's. It had remained small (30 or so people), was financially rock solid, and dominated its niche market. Smaller companies typically have flatter org charts (if they have org charts at all). It's not a bed of roses, money tends to be less and if you don't produce it's obvious. But if you like to wear many hats (for example sys/net admin, architect, developer, testing, dev tool evaluation, service calls) it can be great. The other nice part was that I got to spend about 20% of my time in Information Gathering mode -- what's new, who's got stuff that would be useful etc. When I left the company I was chatting with the founder/president and he asked me what I liked most/least about being there: "Least was some of the bickering amongst the small secretarial pool, most was the fact that nobody impeded my learning/information gathering."
A tip, however, pay attention to everything that goes on in as many parts of the business as possible. If you can build in what you think people will need in 6 months without wrecking the schedule you'll be golden. There's nothing better than responding to a request for what is perceived as a difficult mod with, "Sure. Edit the
2)My current job is providing IS support to a small research-based part of a large organization. The "IS support" designation is basically a way to create research position that is not funded directly by grants. If the grants go away, I'd be shuffled around to some other part of IS. The cool part, is working on things that nobody (well at least very few) people fundamentally understand -- it's here that mental wonderings are appreciated. In contrast, I can't understand how straight-up coders do it. If it came down to being a code-monkey I think I'd look into forestry.
SUMMARY: Do things you find interesting. Find places where people don't know quite how to ask the questions they really want to know the answers to.
The fundamental problem with companies that reach a certain size, they need to add a layer of people on top to make sure that the folks doing all the work are kept in sync.
This creates an entire group of people who's job is not directly related to the actual work being done. It is often very difficult to measure how well a manager is doing his or her job without talking to the employees -- but who is going to talk to them? The point of a manager is to communicate info from their bosses on down... so the manager can filter any information. This creates a little fiefdom under a manager... they run the show. Thus, it is virtually impossible to rate manager performance.
Because managers are not directly in contact with the actual work being done, they have no appreciation for what actually goes on. Thus, when they get bored, they decide to "change things" with little consideration for all the time and effort that will be wasted trying to follow their every whim.
Let me tell you about my month:
First off, let me tell you I work for a chain of flooring retailers, who don't know anything about anything except the difference between plush and saxony carpet. I started as an accountant using an all-paper system, then was appointed "MIS"-(whatever title they have for me this week), which included network admin for 5 seperate LANs (NT - yeah, I know), and some development to make up for what our shrinkwrapped software can't do. These people are salemen. Do they know management? No. Do they know the internals of a business(accounting, etc)? No. Do they even know how to use a computer? No.
As I said before I've spent the past few years building applications which the package we bought cannot accomplish. Last month I ran an update of this package. All my applications died. They completely changed the database(run on Btrieve, no less).
The last month I have been blitzing through my code, modifying all my sql strings, allowing for NULL's - which weren't in the database before, etc. I finally had almost everything re-built.
Monday, to my delight, I was visited by the owner who said he was going to ship all of my app's to our software vendor and see how much it would cost for them to re-build them all.
And to top it all off, yesterday I got a call from within a managers' meeting asking if an app that I had built to export certain reports to (*.txt) text files, could be rebuilt so they could export them to ascii text files.
These people are the people who are in charge, ladies and gentlemen. They provide me with a paycheck. I rely on them to keep their business open so I can feed my family. Instead of me hating my job, I really should be hating myself for relying on these people. Who should I be blaming, my boss for being incompetent, or myself for allowing him to be my boss?
Who are you blaming?
Kiss my bass.
Idaho has a system like that except you set up the interview yourself. I was only employed once using the system (was unemployed 3 times in ID and used temp agencies to get jobs the other 2 times), but it worked great for my wife.
For me it hasn't been a question of liking my job. I have bills to pay. I'm happy to collect my paycheck at the end of the week and live with a bit of dissatisfaction.
I believe he once said "Hate your job? There's a support group for you. It's called EVERYBODY and they meet at the local bar."
I'm currently enjoying my job but being an entry level personnel, I feel that being in the bottom does suck but since I've only graduated from my university close to 2 years that you have to start somewhere.
My questions to those people who have a longer job experience, let's say more than 5 years or experience and are above entry-level status.
Let's say hypothethically you work for a company for 1 year and they feel that they don't like your work progress, and get fired. The reason, let's say is that the company feels you are too slow. Would you as the person, include that company on your resume when looking for a new job or what do you all suggest? In addition, let's say this job you got fired from was your first job and your only previous work experience is some part-time jobs in college related to your job field.
I'm just curious what you people would do in this situation. Thanks in advance.
I'm a college student. That's my job. I love being a college student because despite all the work for class, most of my time is spent in my kick ass apartment with all my cool stuff doing whatever I damn well please. And when I'm not at home or in class I'm out with my friends doing cool stuff.
When I get out of college (CS Major) I plan to get a job. Actually I'll be required to go on co-op before then. Co-op is a paid internship at a real company. You actually get a real job for 10 weeks, I need to do it 4 times to graduate. No matter where I work I know one thing. My job in some way will involve writing code in some computer language. Therefore I will always like my job.
You people complain about stupid management decisions, stress, all this other bullshit. I just don't let it get to me. If I'm given an assignment I do it, and I have fun doing it, because I like writing code. If someone comes up to me and says yeah, we're cancelling your project, or we're changing it, or whatever, I don't care. I tell them all the true and relevant information and continue to do whatever is necessary to get paid. The only things that can possibly happen are me writing more code, or me writing less code. Either is fine with me.
Yes I know my job wont be ALL writing code. But that's what I will spend the majority of my time doing. The other stuff is just sauce on the spaghetti.
If I'm doing something I like to do, and I get money for it everything else just doesn't matter.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Most people who become interested in technical fields in the first place usually do so because they are more comfortable dealing with abstract cerebral things than they are in dealing with people. Acquiring insight and understanding of human nature and the ability to obtain/maintain influence over others is an acquired skill, and most techies never get started developing along these lines because they were more interested in other things (and so often never even notice). The reason most managers are middle aged is because they have slowly acqquired some measure of people skills (usually from getting along with a spouse, raising kids, etc.--looking after people they valued).
If you are aware there is more to life than good code, or beautiful mathematics or (supply your own geeky interest here)... then you will become more aware of what is going on from a human perspective-and people are far more complicated, both individually and in their collective dynamics than any geeky project. The people who promoted or hired your supervisors (large organization) are usually making compromises, hoping for the best. They recognize that a given individual has the potential to develop into something valuable-an insightful manager. The better tech managers tend to come up from the ranks--somebody with an MBA probably doesn't know anything about the technical aspects of what is going on (just look at how the "world class CEOs" almost destroyed Apple, and so pissed off many software makers they still won't do business with Apple). So you look for someone who has the technical experience to know the theory (not just the schoolbook stuff either), how the work is done by people, how the business cycle in the industry operates, etc. When you go to management, your job changes, and you have to start developing different skills. Some develop into paragons, some become the subject for Dilbert cartoons, some become evil Machiavellian manipulators, etc. Just as there is the fullnes of humanity in the workplace at the grunt level, there is almost as full an expression of human variety in the management ranks--the unwashed wierdo in the next cubicle probably won't make it to management (unless his uncle owns the company), so there is some diminuation of the richness of human variety at the management level.
My point is, you have noticed that just dealing with the tech stuff is not as full and rewarding an experience as you had hoped it would be. Understand that we are social animals, and that the things we esteem most arise from social contexts--love and affection of family, peer approval, work that seems socially useful, etc. It is less interesting to work where things are rule driven and scapegoating is the order of the day (places like Dilbert's world). At some point, you have responsibilities to others than yourself, and then compromise becomes a major factor: do you keep your job at Motorola or go live in a teepee in Idaho? THe teepee in Idaho really catch your eye? Your are probably spending too much time in Dilbert's World. Maybe it is time to move on to a different tech job, and keep your fantasies, keep buying lottery tickets, etc. And understand that a flawed workplace is usually the product of flawed people--your managers aren't as fully developed as they might be, because they didn't understand people (which is very complex) and focused on geeky things in their development (which are much simpler than people).
There's a term for companies that have rock-solid, long-term, unswerving development plans: bankrupt.
I'm a techie-turned-manager with a half-dozen programmers under me. Yes, we end up putting projects on the back burner in favor of other projects, then moving them back to the front burner. It's life.
Our customer base is changing, the market is changing, OSes are changing, etc. That means that you change, or die.
If you don't like it, go back to government and find a nice stable 20-year old contract doing software maintenance. It's nice and safe and unchanging.
Picking up my ass....
I've worked in high tech (qa) for four years now.
Before I was in QA, I was in accounting, and all I wanted was a high tech job...it was my dream.
It came true, and it sucked for me.
I've worked at like 6 different software companies & dotcoms over the past 4 years; all but one has had lousy 'management.' Projects get dropped right before completion; 25 year old "managers" make ridiculous promises about meeting absurd schedules.
I've had it. I'm trying to get an accounting job again (and I'm back in school for an MS degree in it), but I've found the going rough 'cuz I've been in tech for four years.
It's been hard for me to justify my work, to find any value in it, while I've been in high tech. At lease with accounting, I can feel good about helping people with their taxes, or running their business.
Lots of people graduate with MBAs and other management degrees and believe that they can run a development project, a shoe store, or a nuclear power plant because they've been given the skills (which they're told are exactly the same for all businesses). But I've learned over the years that the best managers are those who know what is expected of their workers because they've done it themselves. I'm not a middle-level manager now (than damn dot-com blow-out) but I honestly believe that my workers liked me and appreciated how I handed-out projects and tracked their progress because I'd done it myself, both under great management (which I try to emulate) and disasterous management (which still makes me weep).
I work for AOL.... need say no more... ggghhhhh
Cruise TT
Way too often, experience at a job is misguided into management. Just because someone knows how to do their job well doesn't mean they make good management. Simple. And the worst part of this are the smaller companies who have the "buddy system" in place-- they're all friends and their judgement is affected.
I think it comes down to your ability to make a stand and say "no" to obsurd management decisions, because here is what happens: You do all of the work, they make all of the money. Sound fair? Nope. Don't jump ship because your job is just hard, jump ship when the management starts doing one of these:
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
As a consultant I'm in a ton of environments and I hear this same thing over and over from the technical people I encounter. "Management sucks." "They are constantly ruining the project." "They are clueless."
These things may all be true, but what I also see is technical people who aren't willing to step up to the challenges of management nor the making of tough decisions. I see brilliant technical people getting bent out of shape over things they can't control without even the slightest bit of effort to change the way things work.
Don't get cynical and whiny, get motivated! Build consensus among the technical leaders of your organization and build a smart, united technical voice in your company. Become leaders!
Why would I want to kill myself when there are so many other people that deserve it so much more?
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I'm a systems and network administrator in the Engineering Department of a university in New Mexico (New Mexico State University, to give a plug).
First of all, let me say I'm glad I'm employed in a (current) rollercoaster job market for IT people, although I admit it's tough keeping up with the latest in technologies, and even harder to implement them under a budget.
Secondly, I work for people who are not only technically inclined, but are actually interested in the things I do for the department, and are not afraid -- they actually look forward to it -- to roll up their sleeves and help with tackling a tough problem. It's been great working for the University and these people.
Just to let you know there are good working conditions, and good bosses out there. I was exceptionally lucky to stumble across both when I got this job.
Because that sounds like a perfect description of the company I worked for until last summer. When I began working there in '97 the company had a great software product that sold well. Unfortunately, they decided to jump on the Internet bandwagon in late '98 because it was The Next Big Thing.
We programmers saw our fun, profitable work disappearing due to a whim of management, and we were not happy. So we went to work on the salespeople. We gave them demos of the cool stuff we could do. It reminded them that there was something other than Web site redesigns they could sell, and gave them something snazzy to show potential customers. The theory being that as long as the money was coming in, the "visionaries" in management need not worry about the source.
It almost worked, but there was too much turnover in sales and management for our strategy to get a foothold, and then the company ran out of money and almost everyone got laid off. Oh well.
Your fantasies contain the seeds of important concepts.
I work for a company that contracts with the government, and it has been my experience that software development in the government tends to suffer from some basic problems, especially in organizations which don't have a long history of software development:
- Overdesign. Spending far too long designing systems.
- No milestones. Setting due dates measured in years, rather than "partial solution" milestones measured in weeks.
- Treating software development as a large, resource intensive project.
These problems stem, by and large, from the nature of government itself. First, the government has a habit of requiring detailed documentation and approval for the use of all resources, because of accountability. Therefore, things that could normally take a couple of weeks to implement can take a year. You have to write a proposal and submit that for approval. When that finally gets back to you, you have to design the system, and submit that for approval. When that finally gets back to you, you can begin development. If you require any changes in the system, or support from any other unit, you have to document that and submit that for approval. That will probably never get back to you.While this happens to some degree in private industry, IME it is much worse in government.
A side effect of this is that, delays which are damaging in private industry, are deadly in government. You get administration changes, congressional budget changes, and so on, which can affect a project without the project even being a consideration. Normally, in industry, somebody's actually made a conscious decision that the project is unneccessary.
In private industry, you have organizations built around marketting. In the government, the organizations are built around beaurocracy. I think that software development in these organizations tends to reflect this.
I'm still studying and I used to work summers and even part time while in school but I was always deceived by what happened with the projects I was involved in. So one day, me and a friend decided we would just start up something of our own and even though it's hard sometimes and quite insecure most of the time, being your own boss beats any other job. Of course, you still have to deal with your clients, who replace the boss you had before, but once you built a good network of contact, you can simply let it go and work on stuff you really are into while making a living out of your business. I guess you are not disgusted enough of your present job if you don't make that kind of move :)
Sounds like you and I work at the same place.
"Times may change, but standards must remain the same." - George Carlin.
BITD (1999), I was responsible for the construction and maintenance of the back end for a startup. My theory of management went like this:
The people that worked for/with me (I remained hands-on) liked that because they
The people that I worked for (the CEO and CTO)
What happened after I was gone is that it took about one month for the CEO and CTO to realize that
Bottom line, managing maverick engineers is like herding cats or, more accurately, about building a corral big enough that the mavericks will come up to a fence, only see that one fence, and not be tempted to jump out of the corral (remember this is BITD when you *could* hop from one job to another and likely increase your pay in the process. I maintain that the philosophy still applies. Good engineers are creative people who want and deserve to be heard. Using titles (MANAGER) and metrics (DUE DATE) to stifle their input rather than fostering their cooperation is why I don't work in this industry anymore. Work that ain't no fun ain't worth doing.
Granted some managers try, and some have just plain forgotten what the thrill of building something feels like. Time to market sucks, but this *is* a capitalist country. Those who cannot stand the heat (and I include myself therein) should get out of the kitchen and leave the mess for the over achievers to clean. 'nuf said.
In all my experience I have learned one thing about manager: I owuld rather have a good manager who has never programmed then a mediocore manager with programming experience.
A good manager knows how to manage. knowing how to manage means listening and understanding what your people need, and being able to tell there boss it ain't going to happen when they ask for unreasonable goals.
I have also learned that the "layer" above my managers have been far more reseptive to input about reasonable timelines then my imediate boss.
The best manager is one with good managment skills who did programming for a while and hated it. They seem to respect the programmers skill set more.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I used to love my job unfortunatesly things have changed rather recently. I now dread going to work and have had work ruin my otherwise cheerful mode in less than fifteen minutes. I must say that much of the problem stems from management. It runs the full chain of command from my immediate management and up. I really do not know where begin, but I will just start now. Immediate manager is to scared to stand up for the IT department and let others now that we are over-worked, under-paid, and not give the respect many of us deserve. Instead, we a blammed for the poor perception other areas of the company have for us. I have worked in other IT shops and know first hand that we treat our users much better than other companys. Our CIPO (Chief Information and Planning Officer) can't even get the windows & office versions correct much less manage a group of sysadmins and programmers.
I could go on and on, but I won't. Yes, I do believe that management and a overall lack of computer skills by end-users can make IT jobs rather horrible.
No. I never settled in this profession for the money. I love technology, and I wanted to get paid to play with it. Now if only I could dole out a little training.
Stop caring! Worked for me. I love knowing that my job is not my life. I do believe that you should do the best job possible and keep your morals and standards were they may be, however it is not your company, if they want to sink the boat let them. By the way in regards to NASA, we have a good president in the White house and yes Marine is in charge of NASA, so just give it time and you will start feeling like you are in the right place, we'll unless you are a liberal, then life is going to suck, so you best get out of there!
In this tough times? I am quite happy to have a job, liking it is optional.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
As a software development manager and programmer, I'll throw in some ideas:
1. Your real "job" is to feed, clothe, and shelter yourself and your family the best way you can. This is most often done by working for a company.
2. Your real "job" at the company is to do whatever it takes to maintain the short and long term growth and profitability of the organization. Sometimes this means hacking together some crap to close a deal which will make enough money to keep you and your coworkers employed a bit longer.
3. Your real "job" as a programmer is to put together the absolute best product you can given the constraints of time and money. Don't assume you understand all of the constraints, or the implications of the constraints.
Finally, while you are doing the best job you can, it is in your and the company's best interests to always try and make your manager aware of the downsides of his decisions in a polite and intelligent way.
Thanks god or whatever you believe in that you still have a paying job.
Fucking whiners. "Oh my manager sucks cock." "He doesn't understand what's really happening." Why don't you whinny motherfuckers take the promotion as a manager and do it yourself. You'll soon see that a manager has an even harder time dealing with fuck-wit whining pussy bitches.
Cash your
Let's start with the root of the evil here: lazyness.
.bombs and huge IS budget wasting during the last decade.
Way back when programmers were gods and people begged us to come to an interview and if we sounded smart they threw money and toys at us word got around. Many many people started memorizing a lot of terms and then going to interviews and walking out with high-dollar jobs. The problem was when they sat down to do the work they realized that these terms were nowhere near as complicated as figuring out how to understand, expand, fix, or write the code those terms referred to.
Many of these blowhards knew enough about the corporate BS game (read: Dilbert) to keep their jobs for months or even longer by shoveling BS ("The API doesn't clearly specify the implementation of the state machine we need to implement in our [insert name] solution. For this reason I am waiting on an email from the [insert vendor] tech support.") I think that this fact alone caused 80% of the
During the time they spent doing all of this they took courses in management paid for by the education fund of their respective company. Once people started feeling the budget give way with no stable product ready they knew their butts would get chopped quick: so they bailed. Now they go out into the marketplace with even more knowledge of bs terminology and no skills and get jobs as managers.
Now I go to interviews and get asked what [insert any term coined by Rational (tm)] means and to duplicate and example on the whiteboard. (There is a place for that stuff, out of the scope of this post) But if you were lucky enough to be one of the people from the start writing corporate code and picking up the slack of the BSers and didn't have time to memorize UML for dummies: KEEP YOUR JOB FOR ALL YOU ARE WORTH. If you leave you will need a new BS degree (no, that's not Bachelor of Science) in Technical Jargon.
It's a new market: you get paid well for shoveling huge buckets of terminology and knowing how to draw pretty picutres or paid crap to actually take the pictures and turn them into functioning applications.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
I'm a manager, first level. I have 6 folks who report to me. I'm right in the middle of the sandwich! The people below me hate their jobs because of the nonsense of changing priorities and inconsistent values.
I get the complaints from both those below me AND those above. One thing I've learned is that there is a tricky dynamic in the relationships of skip level ranks. What I mean is, you may have a good working relationship with your boss, but the relationship of you and your bosses boss is much more subtle. Regardless of my rank in the past and present, I have always faced great challenges with my bosses boss.
These days I try to work extra hard on that relationship as it seems to improve the overall work experience.
Job: Software Engineer
Years: 10+
In a perfect world I would be highly compensated, work on exciting projects that have some social merit, and enjoy a mutually beneficial relationship with my peers and managers. Alas, it is not a perfect world. I have been on too many projects that were cancelled mid-stream without any efforts by the decision makers to recognize the hard work and dedication that went into it and to therefore allow for some sort of "grieving process" to take place. If I have been asked to develop a 100 line script and it turns out that it isn't needed, well that is just noise on the radar. But when you have worked for months or even years on a project and it is cancelled - well that is something different. I usually just try to shrug it off and focus on the fact that I was paid, my labor is "owned" by others, and that ultimately my financial goals were met...But still there is the sinking feeling that my hard work and efforts did not completely pay off. Imagine if you commissioned an artist and you paid him 100K's to paint a picture and then when he was half way finished you told him it really isn't what you wanted and that he should roll up his canvas and put it in a tube. I doubt that artist would be very motivated to do it again. Yet that is what managers ask software engineers to do everyday. We can argue about whether software is an art form - but the fact is all of us, no matter what occupation we are in, derive a good part of our self worth from the products of our labor and when those "products" are tossed aside like a dirty rag - well your self-worth will take a hit.
the problem with my job is I got involved with my boss romaticly. That is a big problem since when we fight it affects my job so now I have a great job but a shitty relationship
http://Lenny.com
fuck work.
Ive worked for myself and still hated my boss. I just can't win
http://Lenny.com
I like my job, but I have seen the same "pointy-haired" execs make stupid decisions. (Enron for instance.) It's a wide spread phenomenon, probably because intelligence is considered less important than charm when it comes to dealing with people. I'm sick of it, and I am doing something about it. After the years I've spent getting lots of "certs" and an MIS degree, I've decided to cross over: I'm getting an MBA. Although I might sound a little like Jimmy Carter, "Ah shall restore morality to gummint", I have worked with enough bad managers to know that I can do better. Techies relate better to other techies, and we have a better idea of what it takes to make technology work, and a greater ability to make sensible decisions about technical issues.
I'm an engineer and have the same frustrations but I think most of the bitching I hear is from technocrats with who refuse to understand the business world.
If you miss a market window you might as well not have a product at all. Design and development of interesting products is a very hard thing to schedule. Usually by the time you know what the project really entails your half way through it. If after spending months of work you come out and try to say that developement will take twice as long as planned what the management is rightfully hearing is "We've just wasted x dollars for a product that will be useless".
Managing technical projects is not easy.
One should not theorize before one has data. -Sherlock Holmes-
In the end, my best leads came from a contact I had at Apple, an online newspaper ad, and a new job opening at my former employer. I ended up at the latter and, I have to admit, I'm one of the ones who voted "Yes" up above.
I just hired one of those kids and he ROCKS.
The arguments you give are correct, but they are cynical / destructive and, I think, not how you should think. You actually sound a bit like Alfred Hitchcock but without his humor; look at his quotes about managing actors.
I think that what the original author should think about is his own attitude. That's the one thing that you can control over totally about yourself. If your attitude is that you are the victim, then you surely will be the victim. If your attitude is that you will be professional (technically and ethically), then you will be professional. Of course, you have to work with your attitude - nothing comes for free - but that just makes it more worthwhile.
I think this touches on a fundamental truth here somewhere. Managing s/w projects is a difficult task. People get PhDs thinking about this stuff.
Development is a risky business. Most projects fail. Often one must predict future needs/requirements/demands. Decisions made early in the game have a profound effect on the final result.
A manager of mine once characterized the process as "Shoot first, then aim."
I started my current round of torture (otherwise known as graduate school) back in January of 1998. In that time I have actually come to respect some of the thinkers in the business management community. Right now I'm enrolled in a class that (so far) deals with "discontinuous change". Comparisons have been made between this type of change and incremental change.
I'm sure we all would love to have stability and be able to plan out our projects to their proper conclusion - some small changes along the way wouldn't necessarily hurt. So far this class has shown me that we no longer live in that kind of world. That world passed about 100 years ago. Now we face challenges from people we didn't know existed and change occurs faster than ever. Sometimes these managers don't cut off development because they want to screw people over or because they're incompetent. Sometimes they do it because they see threats or opportunities out there and want to take action to deal with it. That can mean they would ask technical people like us to make major adjustments or take a whole different path altogether. It's not necessarily the case management puts up with quick and dirty solutions - it's because they need something to deal with any urgent issues that arise.
I hate this kind of change as much as the next person. But would you want to deal with this change yourself? Someone else posted earlier that he'd rather have others deal with policy, research and management and he'll deal with the "coalface".
I think that, on top of being frustrated with projects being cut off at the knees, people are frustrated with not knowing what is the overall reality they have to deal with. That's part of my reason for going for my MS degree - so I'd be better clued in as to what is happening with me and my org and be able to possibly do something about it.
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Some jobs are great, while others are down right awful. However, no matter how great your job is, there're going to be bad days, and some aspects of the job that you don't like.
I'm pretty happy with my current job. There are some people and situations that I have trouble with, but I've decided that I can cope with them because I enjoy what I'm doing.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
Managing a sotware project is hard (Slashdot).
"If we didn't have PHP, it would cost us six to seven times as much to operate [our] IT environment," says Kevin Crothers, head of corporate Web systems at WorldCom Inc. WorldCom has used PHP for several major Web projects, both internal and external, including the front end to a searchable database of employees and contractors that contains more than 100,000 records. "It's all LDAP-based," he says, noting that PHP had "the strongest LDAP integration we've been able to find."
Then you have to ask some hard questions. Can you get what you want working for someone else? For real? Are there decisions that are typically or likely going to be made that will ruin your dream?
Lastly, what's it worth? Do you have the tools to do it?
I worked at IBM. It's a great company. You can very easily get in to a nice routine there, never need to work a lot of overtime. Put your 40 in, get a decent raise every year, pick up your spec and churn out the code, show up to some meetings, go home raise some kids and a dog, buy that house with the picket fence.. It's safe and tame. You won't get fired but you probably won't work on really sexy stuff either. At age 23, after 5 years as a regular employee there (yes, I was a salaried software engineer for them) I wanted something more exciting.
I went to a medium sized company with hands off managment. It's awesome in ways. We have a goal and some deadlines and complete freedom to build the product. And it's linux based. It's a dream come true, or is it? It takes radically different skills to work in that environment, you can't have team member who simply want a spec and a dark office with no interaction, team dynamics are critical. You need people who take initiative. You need bold people who are good communicators. With just a few "roll players" who want that 40 hours, pick-up-spec-drop-off-code-never-talk-to-anyone job, it becomes nearly impossible to make it work. Likewise, you can't work 40 hours a week, it's not enough time to "do it the right way" you find yourself working 50-60 hours a week and still not having enough time becuase you've got complete engineering freedom and you want to make it perfect as you see it. It's hard, it has it's rewards, but it takes a lot way from life also.
After 2 years of that I walked away from that and started my own business.
Running your own gig is different. There is a lot of work that has to get done before you can do the work. It's a lot of work. It has its moments and rewards, there are also times when I'd love to be back at IBM working my safe little 40 every week watching the stock options earn value. Is it worth it? I can't say yet. I can say that if I go back in to the corporate world it will be a safe and tame 40 so that I can easily put 10-15 in to something else outside of that.
You'll never be completely fullfilled building someone else's dream or vision. Remember that. There will always be decisions and tough choices to make and ultimately they are going to want some return on their investment in you and the dream they have. As cool as the product may be, if you're not calling the shots then there are probably going to be times when things are going to upset you. It's also supposed to be work and you're supposed to have a life outside of that.
I highly recommend the porn business to any of the geeks out there - quit wasting time coding for stock options!
I've worked for other companies where the expectation is to just do your job and that's it. When one asks for additional job resposibility, the request is promptly shot down because you're expected to "just do the job you have." Personally, that's a very dangerous method of running a business (or any other organization for that matter); no organization will ever be successfull using that strategy. Challenging employees with new responsibilities keeps them interested, motivated and productive thereby increasing employee retention. If employees aren't productive, they get bored and that's leads to lazyness, goofing off and other problems. My current employer challenges me daily (if not hourly!). Each day has new challenges to keep me interested and content, but not erratically out of control due to lack of foresight or pre-planning, which can also kill an organization.
Some people will be good, others (at all levels) will be damn near retarded.
No. I don't like my job. I don't remember the last job I liked. But, like the subject says, who cares? "Work" by definition is generally something that you do for money. "Like" doesn't come into the equation. So what if your project is stupid? Do the paychecks bounce? If no, then shut up. Do your job however they tell you to do it, and be happy to have a job right now.
I don't understand IT people expecting to like their jobs. Do you think that 99% of the people on the planet "like" their jobs? No. Of course not. They do it to pay the bills. That's life. Grow up and deal with it.
Hence, job I don't like.
Maybe when the tech around portland picks back up, I'll go back into my feild, but at this point, I inspect buildings. There is no more boring job.
The only tax the employer is required to pay is the matching FICA tax, which is about 7% of wages. The employee gets stuck with the rest of them. Of course, many employers also offer fringe benefits such as health insurance, etc. But as I said, this is dropping at an alarming rate. The company I work for (an NYSE stock company) not only has doubled the number of facilities I'm responsible for (thus forcing me to work over 60 hours a week with no increase in salary), they also reduced the number of holidays by two this year (down to 7), reduced their contribution to my health insurance, forced me to pay for my own disability insurance, and reduced company paid life insurance from two times salary to one. The net result is that I now have almost 200 bucks more per month in deductions. So, I'm working more days per year and more hours per day in 2002 for about $2000 LESS take home pay then I made in 2001! My friend, this ain't progress... It's greed. Pure and simple.
While the jobs I used to have were OK, I never really felt motivated to work extra hard just to maybe see the benefits trickle down to me, the lowly employee.
Having just started my own computer consulting firm, I can say that at least for now it's been a blast. You make your own hours, you can turn away clients that are too stupid to work with, and you basically work to make your life better--direct feedback between what you deliver and how it affects you.
Risks? Sure, there are risks, but ask all of the dot commies who were just laid off about risk. There's also this myth that businesses are all about luck and most people will try to discourage you from starting one. It's bullshit. If you're smart and clever you can get by just fine. Haven't you ever come across complete idiots who run successful businesses? That's an insult to you if someone tells you that you can't do better.
It's more work than I ever thought would be involved, but in the long run I think it's /so/ worth it.
I became an out of work computer programmer a couple months ago. I became broke, and started collecting unemployment. I moved back home with Mommy and Daddy to save money. I took a few bucks from my unemployment check to the local casino, and won. Went 3 more times (the last time was this morning), and won each time. That's 4 visits in 6 days now. I've won $900 this week. Not too shabby for someone with no job. I now refer to going to the casino as "going to work"
No laws really. They can fire you for the silliest things. Other employees can get you fired easy too. Just cry sexual harassment.
What if this doesn't work, even after a year? What if you swear at your director constantly during your quarterly review telling him exactly what you think of him and nothing happens? (Come to think of it, I actually got rated above average on that review - sick.)
I finally quit (hitting that magic 100%-turnover-in-three-months number for our department), was unemployed for 10 weeks, and now make more and am much happier. Of course, I had great references from my previous managers who got tired of the place before I did, and I had enough saved up to take the risk.
As a kindergarten teacher, I would imagine I enjoy my job far more than 90% of the people who posted here. I'm not one to judge whether what I do is more responsible, useful - it is certainly not as appreciated, nor nearly as well-paid.
Sounds like you and I work for the same company. :)
My biggest problem is that management makes technical decisions without consulting with technical people. *shrug*
I used to work for a large telecom equipment company.
One of my projects was the development of a large
scale project tracking system. This is similar in purpose to project management systems except it also
kept detailed info on how the project was doing, who was assigned to what and such.
We couldn't use commercial tools due to the scale
(1000's of users scattered across the planet) and
the fact that we had dozens of variations on the development process to track. The stuff we had built
was rather beyond the commercial tools anyway.
But, our 3rd or 4th level management read a book
about project management (a novel, really a 250
page advertising brochure) and came to the conclusion that they knew far more about the problem and the solution than did the people who
actually did the work.
So they spent millions (several times the cost of the existing system)
to buy the advertised system that wasn't designed to work either internationally or with more than 40-50
users. Oh and it didn't do the tracking part or
generate the reports people needed.
They went out of there way to exclude the technical experts thay had, mostly because we
would disgree with them. After firing one person and trying
to fire another, we finally realized our doom and the rest of us transferred to other projects.
We called this phenomenon 'management by magazine'.
For some reason, once they got beyond first level management, they stopped thinking critically and started believing everything they read.
My final project with the company had much saner management who just stuck to doing management things and left the engineers to do the engineering.
I've never quite understood what value most management added anyway and this just reinforced that. Maybe the problem is that management was promoted from engineering and realized their mistake only after they had lost their engineering skills.
**kent
You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. -- Super Chicken
I am a manager for a Texas State Agency and have a backround as a Sys Admin for over 5 years. I manage a staff of 5 and have some insight into this. Wheather you are trained in IT or management doesnt mean you are gonna excel in either (My excellent Network Admin is a pre-med graduate). Good people skills and resource management skills make good managers, and good tech skills make good tech people. If you are lucky to have both then you can do both. But one doenst follow the other.
Being a manager isnt the panacea that some think it is. I now have a whole new set of problems. You are always gonna have to deal with a unique set of problems wherever you work. Hopefully you have the mental faculties to deal with them.
Management is nothing but politics on a micro scale. It's not how good you are technically, it's really not about how nice you are, it's all about how well you play the game. Everything in the game boils down to people who are good at being people they are not for reasons that only appeal to themselves. There are exceptions, managers with integrity and a true love of their job and their trade and their staff. The rest of management tends to be a) very selfish, and b) very good at hiding that fact when it's in their best interest to do so.
Disclaimer: I was promoted-to & briefly held a supervisor-type tech position once. It was enough. I'm happily back as a regular employee. Most of below is from my observation of friends & loved ones in positions from CIO to entry-level helpdesk.
IMHO, much of management is done by the seat of one's pants. Especially when it comes to technology. Artificially tight deadlines leave little time for thinking through projects, and few of us are trained to plan or test critically. So we cross our fingers, read the trade mags looking for direction that other companies are taking (while they're flying blind as well), and make decisions by SWAG (scientific wild-@ssed guessing) while trying to make sure we can see the big picture & long-term ramifications.
Then, we pull on the asbestos underwear, because middle-management has to "take the heat" from both upper-management and the regular employees. Upper-management wants productivity & profits, regardless of employee impact -- mostly because they just don't understand the ramifications. Employees react with anger & resentment, not suprisingly, because the reasons behind the decisions aren't always communicated clearly... and "kill the messenger" is a time-honored stress release. As a manager, if you can't keep your mind agile & flexible (to see, persuade/argue all points of view to above & below), you end up resentful, bitter, and an unreasonable person to work for.
It would take a near-miracle for me to take a management-type position again... it's incredibly thankless, no matter how good or bad your ability. I offer the above in hopes it can bring about some understanding or compassion for why management seems so clueless... not to say that one should "put up" with it, but to have a better handle on why it might be happening, and what might be done to help or get around it. In closing, I concur with the other posters, in that you can best salvage your work needs by working for a company or cause or project that you really care about. Feeling like you're "making a difference" can make the annoying crap much easier to deal with, no matter where you rest in the company hierarchy. Good luck.
start a porn site. no boss, great money. unless you have morals.... /plug/
There's no "I" in Linux.. err..
A couple of years ago, after being extremely disapointed with what an 8-5 corporation job entails, I made a decision to move to a university town and pursue my Creative Writing masters degree while working part-time jobs. Unfortunately, I got side tracked with a new IT job and dropped that lifestyle.
This thread, along with my desire to move closer to my girlfriend, has begun to make me seriously ponder what I'm doing in life. I don't NEED most of the stuff I have. The library supplies most of what I find enjoyable. My car is about paid off, and I'm really considering jumping out of this hamster wheel and forging ahead with MY dreams and My vision statement. My dream is to become a writer...and I don't care if I make half of what I make now....I want to be satisfied with what I do for a living.
I'm 26...no kids, and a wonderfully understanding girlfriend. If I'm ever going to do this...now would be that time.
I'm putting some thought into this....serious thought. Thanks again.
I'm through with even thinking management could do anything to my benefit.. I'm a senior systems engineer/admin and i just do my job... If management wants to try to change what I do, they will have to do so with force. I keep thier shit running and that's all that matters, how I do it is my business... I'm paid for my knowledge and experience, after all.
If I listened to them, I'd get fired because they'd blame ME for thier dumb ideas.
Last boss that tried to push me around got threatened with a tire iron. then I got him fired.
Of course, this only addresses part of the problem. It would probably help out managers who deal with workers directly, but it kinda neglects the "upper management" who are often blamed for bad decisions. I don't know if that can be fixed ...
As for the points of the original inquisitor, I think penny-wise, pound-foolish corporate cultures can be influenced from below. (I'll use the software industry ... apply it as you can to other industries.) If you can get into a place where the programmers refuse to do the quick fix, things turn around pretty quick. I've been one to fall into that trap, but I always end up feeling better, looking better, and not being fired if I buck up and refuse to do the quick fix. It gets to be kinda fun too.
--- Jason Olshefsky
Karma: Poser (mostly affected by adding this line long after everyone else did)
In my last job I worked at a Drug company making drugs. My manager had previously had my job before. Infact he was supposed to be the resident "expert" and was frequently consulted by upper managment. He had no idea what he was doing and no expirence or training as a manager. I was on labor loan to another department who had a manager (an older woman w/o any managment training) who was known to be a man hater. (all woman department) She would complain up a storm about the newest person in her department and a helluva lot if it was a man. After her bad reviews to my manager that were total BS, since I was on loan his quote was "you made me look really bad so I am going to try to do everything I can to get you out of this department or fired." Of course this was in a closed door meeting w/o anybody else around. So next month when I get put back into my regular job he "notices" how wrong I am doing things and makes me get "retrained." This is basicly an excuse to watch me 24/7 and have a power trip. He would also then try to convert me. I am not religous but he was. He would say that he "wasent religous but he had a personal relationship with JC." Now I dont care about that but he would throw that in your face all the time and say how I was a sinner since I didnt go to church.
.gov job after that. It's alot worse to deal with some things but at least I'm union and I dont have to worry about nutty religous managers.
Needless to say I got a
Vote early. Vote often. Vote CowboyNeal.
My job isn't so bad, I manage a small UNIX network and a small MS network, and do general fix this fix that PC work. I also do some networking for various clients, nothing too heavy and I am generally unsupervised.
The bitch of it is, the one guy who I have the most contact besides my boss is a jerk. He's a copier tech, and he knows where to get drivers and such if I need to network a copier or fax machine for a client. All I ever hear out of this guy is how my job is the easiest job ever and how he could do it blindfolded with one hand behind his back. My job isn't exactly rough, but this guy screwed up installing his CD-ROM drive and had to bring it in to me. He views opening up a folder on another PC on the network to be the extent of managing a network. I hate this guy. If it weren't for him, and the whole "You have to wear a tie" bit, this job would be great. 15 minutes of this dude and I'm on dice.com looking for prospects.
Just Over Broke.
First off: management is just as difficult as coding. There are lots of people writing code who are just 'winging it', you likely know a few where you are right now. The consequence of their mistakes is usually visible only to them or a handful of people on the development team (they or someone has to fix the bug, rework the code). Mistakes or poor choices at the management level are often visible throughout the organization.
You want to feel that you are contributing towards a greater good, i.e. the successful completion of a useful application/system/product. That's a pretty normal desire. It looks like you're not getting this desire, or expectation, fulfilled at your present job. You never (or too rarely) get the sense of satisfaction and pride of finishing a project that's well designed and coded. What to do?
One solution is to find a company where you can get those expectations met. Use your network of friends, find out who's working for "clueful" management.
Another solution is to revise your expectations at your current job. If you are constantly disappointed by management decisions, quit expecting management to make decisions you like. Find another focus where you can derive satisfaction. Maybe you can become a mentor to those around you. Maybe you can find a project outside work to focus on, or a hobby. Maybe you can get satisfaction out of the code you write, and ignore whether it actually goes to production.
These are just suggestions to get you thinking. Your answer will come from introspecting, thinking about what really satisfies you and motivates you. And then you have to figure out how to get it, in spite of your present situation at work, or again, by finding a new job.
I do wish you good fortune in finding a place/way to be happier. It's difficult to do something when you aren't feeling motivated or rewarded.
Regards,
Thomas
From reading the posts here, it's clear that (nearly) all managers are idiots and (nearly) all companies are mismanaged. Therefore, to make a bazillion bucks, all you need to do is put together a business with smart managers instead of dumb ones, so that all the techs will be tickled pink to go to work, and product quality will soar. Right?
Well, basically that's true, but if this were easy to do, everybody would be doing it. Companies don't deliberately make themselves inefficient. As a few posts have reminded us, management is not a precise science. Training can help but only to a certain extent (and the best training is probably running a Boy Scout troop rather than going to B-school). It's hard to be a good manager, hard to measure management performance, hard to balance the competing priorities that most managers face, and hard not to wind up shooting yourself in the foot.
Which is not to excuse stupidity nor to discourage you from ridiculing morons; but just remember that if YOU were doing that job, you'd probably screw it up just as much, and maybe more.
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
Does CowboyNeal do anything besides lend his name to these polls?
I have found that the solution to the problem you describe, and it is pervasive in ALL fields not just programming or engineering, is to do what you love to do. That way you have the opportunity to refine (or complete) projects to your liking long after they were 'done' at work. As a bonus you don't feel like your employer is stealing your free time if you do take some work home because 'hey, its not work, this is what I do.' That said, I know many of us are not lucky enough to find that special niche in life, but keep looking, it IS the solution you seek.
"Waitress I need two more boat-drinks..."
Its too bad you had to lose your job there...
:) Go back to your desk and make a calculated estimation, and return to him with a report on how you made the estimation. Even if your estimations are off, which most likely they are by at least 15 to 20 percent, its the right way to do things. Its formal and will show that you have a good idea how software should be done. They may or probably wont even understand it, and will skip to the bottom line summary. Count on that. This is a perspective from a development manager.
Its the development managers job to correctly determine the time requirements. I dont know what your position was there.
Good advice says that anytime management or a higher up calls you in his office, presents a need for development, and documentation IS included in development, then asks how long it will take to get done, there is a definate correct response. "Let me examine the situation and ill come back to you in a few days with a solid estimate." If you tell your boss a number immediately, he will know that you are shooting from the hip. And even if you have many years experience, and knowing that real time estimations arent an exact science, your response is a guess. Executives and directors want hard facts, or at least presented as such.
When working "right-to-left", given a deadline up front, Do your report and figure out the time really needed to do the job. If they dont budge on the deadline, ask them which things would they like to leave out because of the limited time table. If that is not an option, after you make your argument. Then start looking for another company.
My view on your situation is that any company needing a mission critical component in 6 weeks is managed by a bunch of retards. And that your we're working at a company that was clearly already fucked.
Best wishes to your future!
Roland Kopecky
So here is some crap that appearently gets taught in most business schools: "Good quality isn't what sells, we just need to be slightly better than the competition." and "Good quality isn't what sells -- our customers liked our so-and-so product so they will buy the rest of our products."
Take for instance, MyComputer.com. I worked there once. The management had this great idea that we should quit targeting our niche (Superstats) and build all these other e-commerce products that everyone would want because they liked Superstats. Except that our e-commerce products were way over simplified (from the "wizard" school of management) and, hence, sucked, and nobody was impressed. And then one day they fired 100 people who were working on e-commerce junk.
Been there, done that, have the t-shirt...
My last job, I was on a cutting edge project, something that would change the industry. Then managment got the "Let's give our software a web interface" bug.
So instead of core features, which the project I was on was, we all went scampering after Java/J2EE.
Then I had to takeover some other project to integrate a piece of software into our system and build system.
Then I was switched between about a dozen projects in 10 months.
Oh, and get this, I never got any formal real training on our core software internals. Course the newbies hired after me did. I always felt like I didn't quite grok the massive server, or the tools. But now we were to busy for me to even consider taking the classes.
After about 18 months, I was browbeatten and depressed. I got 'layoff' warnings from my superiors.
So I busted my butt, I closed more bugs in the last month than anyone else in the group. I was on fire. Course, this apparently wasn't enough. So when the dot com bust came, and a buyout-reorg, I was let go.
I went from a project I loved to being a code monkey, requiring no design work. I had to fix other people's broken code, which I was now official maintainer of. I wasn't given a choice in the handoffs either. And it was far from even usable when I got it...
Oh well, still job hunting.
-=Crusoe=-
I get to come in late, I have semi-flexible hours, they buy us lunch on Fridays, they pay me reasonably well, and they let us keep a couple of ferrets. The only thing that would make it better is if they got that ex-stripper to come back and work for us again....
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
I work for the college I attend, as the webmaster for one of the departments. I just got a raise to $7/hour, and I work about 15 hour weeks. I like my job because I work with a bunch of good people who are fun to be around, my boss is really fair (even if she doesn't always know what she's talking about), and I get pretty flexible hours (since they change each semester)
While I admit that getting paid $7/hour for doing the php programming and stuff I do is really damn cheap, they appreciate my work, and it gets my name out... building for a career once I graduate (CS major)
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
Yes, and the thing that all your jobs have in common is you.
If you continue to look outward at your situation and wonder why things aren't getting better with each new job, then maybe looking outward isn't the solution.
Repeating the same behavior and expecting different results = insanity. It isn't management's fault you feel disappointed, is it?
I feel for ya here, as people management isn't something you can really teach; either you've got it or you don't, like good customer service. And if you don't have it, it takes a lot of stumbling and trudging (and desire, for that matter) to get good at it. But, regardless of that, people management doesn't occur in a vacuum; if you want your boss to be more mindful of you as a person, don't wait for them to take interest and then kvetch when they don't notice you. That is a setup. You can choose a different, more healthy attitude instead of waiting for the perfect management team to arrive at your door.
I'm curious, what happened recently that brought this submission about?
This sounds like you're intolerant of imperfection and change. (Gee why would I notice that?
LOL - if I were coaching you, I would ask you that same question. You have the answer. There is no magic recipe to this; if you don't have confidence in your management, why would you expect to feel good about your work?
Let's put it this way: If your boss walked up to you right now and asked how you felt about your work, what would you say? What would you want to say? If you were your boss, what would be easy to hear? What would piss you off?
My point is: I've been where you are right now (and I've worked for my dad, small agencies, private companies, large non-profits, higher-ed and now the federal government). You sound like you're stuck, and when I get stuck I tend to get adversarial and blame "them" instead of looking within and being constructive. I'm sorry this all may sound like gloppy encounter-group bull-hockey, but it's worked for me. I'm really happy with my job, and I know that part of that has to do with me communicating a lot with my boss, trusting his direction, forgiving his mistakes (and owning up to mine
And don't take yourself so damn seriously
"The cup... the drop... it's a YES!"
The problem with job postings on company web sites is that a lot of them are bogus too. The company might have the posting up but not really be hiring because:
:)
o required for HR reasons but they already have somebody internal that they want
o nobody is maintaining the page anymore (maybe the guy who did it was fired
o the company wants to give the impression to investors/journalists/etc who are reading the site that the company is still growing. So they put up an job description, collect the resumes, but never have any interviews ("We're always interested in hiring excellent people!" yeah, right)
Be thankful you have a job. Six months of unemployment here and counting.
dilbert is subversive twaddle. as you laugh your shackles rattle merrily, the ball-gag muffles any noise which might be heard outside your cubicle.
Last month I was laid-off. I had been (repeatedly) telling my boss that it was next to impossible to transfer data from a VAX database to Oracle, as I didn't have the propriatary data forms from the original database. After 4 weeks of (patiently) explaining why it couldn't be done, I viewed the evidence that my boss, whom I had never met in person, had little if any knowledge of programming or computer operations outside of their desktop PC. And this person is in charge of 25+ programmer-types nationwide!
I am always curious why a person with no knowledge of what we do and how we do it, can manage us -- AND ignore us when we say "NO, IT CAN'T BE DONE!"
After 30+ years in the field, I've only encountered these so-called managers twice in the last 10 years. In both cases, I was the one who got "laid-off".
Then again, maybe it's me. I have always expected my boss/manager to not only know what I do, but has had real experience doing it.
back to looking for work...
No
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
Thank you, bush economy! I have no job!
Don't feel bad when code is thrown away. Embrace change. Sometimes deleting a thousand lines of overly-complicated code can be the best thing for the project.
If you arrange to deliver value every week or month, your project is less likely to get canned.
Don't feel bad if the first version of the code is a mess. You can fix it when it becomes important. When you find yourself facing painful maintenance, inform the manager that resources need to be spent to fix the problem for real.
Quit designing for tomorrow. Solve today's problem today, and tomorrow's problem if and ONLY IF tomorrow comes. Designing for tomorrow complicates the code, and does not pay off in an uncertain environment. YAGNI (You Ain't Gonna Need It).
Keeping a paper trail of recommendations can come in handy when it is time to convince your boss to allocate resources to maintenance: "we've spent an average of 4 hours every week for the past 10 weeks to cleaning up behind this buggy tool. 12 weeks ago I told you it would be a problem. It's time to spend 16 hours fixing/replacing the tool".
As Cliff (the poster) pointed out, we've been doing software development for over fifty years now. So why aren't things perfect yet?
I think that one of the reasons is that managers are unwilling to look to the literature of the industry. Over those fifty years a huge about of good stuff has been written about how to manage software projects and software companies. But very few managers read any of it.
As a rough-and-ready indicator of a manager's skills, I'll often have a look at the bookshelf in their office and see how interested they are in learning how to do their job better.
We could have a whole discussion about what are good and bad books for software project management (I usually start them off with "Peopleware" and go from there), but the first step is finding some managers who actually want to learn.
As an aside, this is also one of my pet peeves about programmers. Sure, lots of people have oracle DBA or java threads books on their shelf, but few people seem to read books about generally-being-a-better-programmer.
It's: "I wouldn't say I've been missing work, Bob." PC Load Letter??!? WTF does that mean?!
Over a year ago, I got hired at a Lone Star Steakhouse in Louisiana. I knew it was going to be a pretty bad job from the start, as the only reason I was hired was because our waiter quit and left my family high and dry - leaving the manager to deal with us. Well everything was just spiffy when I first started, but then the manager was replaced with a guy I humbily call "Ruthless Toothless", also known as Ruben Delany.
Ruben, could at most, be considered the king of the asshole managers. He considered himself to be perfect, higher up in the scale of life than his employees. But in fact, he was actually a 40-year old fatass who was kicked out of his house when he was in the 9th grade, hence he didn't even complete high school.
Well, I took advantage of this fact and used my phreaking skillz to monitor his phone calls, and I stumbled upon something. I caught Ruben talking to a chick, kinda sexy talk ya know. Turned out he was cheating on his wife. Well, I exposed that I knew this fact to him.... and got myself a considerable raise. When I left the location, I was the highest paid hourly employee in the entire DISTRICT.
After a year, I finally quit. But it was indeed the best revenge against a horrible boss.
The fact is that software development is plagued by business people who persist in considering it as an industry when it is nothing more than a handicraft. These people must learn that despite the high level of the technologies involved, it is still not possible to produce software as we do produce cars. We lack tools for that. Assembly lines for software development do not exist. Software engineers are craftsmen, not workmen, and must be considered as such. By disregarding the true nature of our activity, business people tend to enforce methodologies inspired by the industry, instead of taking the responsibility of coming up with new methodologies that are more suitable to the management of highly skilled craftsmen. These methodologies have proven unable to manage change, and therefore failed. You should have a look at the agile methods, such as XP.
They mostly come out at night....mostly.
(Oops, sorry, wrong poll!)
You're using her as bait, Master!
I contract @ a *.gov. Although my hourly rate is the same as I've been making for the last few years; there is no overtime, or even the option of making every week a 40 hr one [like Presidents day was a 32 hr work week; but past places of employment I could make up to the base 40/week, not here].
/.
But that's the whinner in me, in fact, with all my CC bills, Im just glad to be employed.
OTOH - management is a god-damn nightmare here; we now have two managers who don't talk to each other. I just lay low in my cube, do the minimum work, and count the moments until 4pm....
oh, and cruise
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Now that the dust has settled from my employers' restructuring last May, things are looking pretty good. I'm having fun. I'm doing new things. They're taking pretty good care of me, and paying me lots. That's what happens when too many people they were counting on walk. :-)
The net result is that what's left isn't much of a show. But it's my show, and I now find myself in the most senior position I've ever had. True, it's largely by attrition. But no matter how I got here, I'll take it.
Do I like it? Yes, for the most part. I qualify the answer because while I have no plans to leave any time soon, I do know, in some detail, what circumstances would cause me to do so.
...laura
Unfortunately, Radio Shack is really blowing a prime opportunity for their stores to excel.
... but the other *big* reason I kept coming back was one particular salesperson. This guy was a big ham radio and electronics buff, with seemingly endless knowledge. He'd suggest parts I could buy to build circuits/projects to accomplish a task, and kept me motivated by asking how the projects were working out when I came back later.
Why? Because they're small stores, with only one or two salespeople working there at a given time. This makes them prime candidates for keeping only the most knowledgeable people, and impressing customers with that knowledge.
Instead, Tandy Corp. seems to believe that they're better off economically to hire at a very low pay-rate and encourage sales with "spiffs" and commissions. Commissioned sales and "spiffs" don't at all motivate a true electronics geek. They only motivate a true "salesman", who wants to sell as much of anything as possible, and cares very little what it is he/she is selling.
A long time ago, I bought *loads* of items at my local Radio Shack. For starters, this was back before IBM became dominant, and so I did a lot of my Tandy computer purchasing there
He didn't care if what I needed was a 5 cent resistor -- it got the same level of attention as a big product, and that wasn't lost on me.
I quit buying at RS not long after he left (got hired at Chrysler as an electrical engineer, last I remember). The other sales drones I ran into at RS drove me away with their lack of knowledge and flat out wrong information.
Most business schools teach that 'product focus', as opposed to 'customer focus', is damaging to a company. If you consider that the company's technical and engineering staff are concentrated upon product matters then it is clear that many (bad) managers see this as justification for trivialising their employees.
It's yet another example of faulty New Economy business-think. Particularly when applied to IT and technological industries.
I think you put too much faith in companies, all in all. I'd love to believe they understand this fact - but I think only a minority of them really do.
What happens, more often, is the actual manager of the programming dept. and his/her staff grasp this idea, but the other people doing the interviewing (H.R., etc.) don't. They're trained to serve as a "screen", filtering out the undesirables before they waste anyone else's interviewing time. Lack of a college degree is a prime reason to get "filtered out" after the initial interview.
Believe me, I know. I don't code for a living, but I do system administration and PC support - and I fought for a *long* time before finding a (small) company that cared about what I could do instead of what credentials I walked in with.
I've still not been able to break into employement with a large company, and I really believe the lack of a degree is the primary reason.
Nonetheless, I refuse to put myself thousands in debt and expend all the time/effort to get that piece of paper, just to satisfy those who aren't enlightened.
Before it is too late. Your job wont bring you what your genes are calling for.
The job is great, PHP programmer yay. But I don't know about the pay, the bastards haven't given me a raise in a year and they tell me to wait til June to ask again (due to poor economy), how sucky.
Go see Office Space.
what does CowboyNeal do for his job? I wouldn't want it if it was this job that's for sure.
In the next 5 to 10 years all of the coding jobs in the US will be history. The work is all going to be sent overseas. It's already starting to happen.
*exchanging cape of lurking for cape of Flame resistance* In the defense of some (hopefully good) supervisors that are getting a bad rap. I have recently been promoted to supervisor from a technical position. In wanting to fix a lot of the problems at my company (many of which are mentioned here). As I began working on these problems I came to a simple realization.
;p
Most companies are large enough that it is often difficult to communicate/think of all of the problems that will come up in a project. Plans change, as does the market in field, and this requires flexibility. Unfortunately companies are run by profits. If they don't make the profits, they can't put food on your table.
Perhaps looking at it from your manager's/supervisor's point of view can help you to understand what is going on and therefore make you "happier". Mentioned above, getting to know your manager/supervisor outside of the work place, also helps you to gain perspective on their personal goals, failures, and successes of that individual. This may explain defensive attitudes, or sudden changes.
Certainly, this is not a blanket disclaimer for all poor management decisions. But I'd like to believe that most people don't try to do their jobs poorly.
*Lurk Mode = ON*
> You have got to be kidding - have you ever HAD a manager who was a COMPLETE tech from a CS background?
> They are the worst of the worst
There are a number of opensource groups that are far more productive and responsive than anything you'll ever see in business. They seem to get along pretty well with their complete tech backgrounds. And no, I'm obviously not talking about skills with money and politics, but their ability to solve problems, cooperate, and meet customers (end user) needs. Yes, there's a lot of yelling and screaming, and other things "management" wouldn't approve of, and yet they still get there.
It's frustrating for me, as a problem solver, to be unable to crack this nut.
Maybe CowboyNeal's job would be acceptable though.
How right you are!
My wife decided she wanted to go back to school, and got suckered in to attending ITT for their 2-year EE degree. What a scam!
After her first semester, they changed their curriculum, eliminating the old track to their EE degree and replacing it with some sort of "computers and electrical engineering" degree. Of course, they said those students who already started out on the old EE program could finish it up - but here's the kicker! If you missed too many days, you had to re-take that semester later, and in this case, you had to start over with the new degree program.
My wife has problems with getting sick quite often (she has an immune system deficiency, called IDD), and so she was very concerned she might need to take off a semester before her EE was finished. Therefore, she thought it safest to just start over on the new degree track from the get-go.
Here's where all the B.S. really begins. They made her take several classes over which she'd already taken (same textbook even), but said her other credits didn't count for the new degree program, because the courses she was taking over were called slightly different things.
I told her to bail out of ITT and cut her losses, but they refunded her grant money to the state as soon as she quit, and are now trying to bill us for the amount of the whole 2nd. semester, in full. No way we can afford to pay that, nor do I think we really owe that much anyway. (She was only a couple weeks into her 2nd. semester when she quit. Why isn't it pro-rated?)
And don't you think there's a pretty hefty level of this "accountability" in I.T. too?
Oh, sure - you're not cutting somebody open, but you are responsible for pretty much all of the company's important documents. (A sysadmin can pretty much access anyone's email and personal documents at will, after all, and controls security to who sees what on the systems.) If your server goes down, productivity at most businesses comes to a screeching halt. Therefore, the I.T. people maintaining it are ensuring all the other workers can keep doing their jobs.
I think it will be a sad day when this is overlooked or forgotten, just because some management-types and business owners decide that "computers are now a commodity".
I work for a small technology consulting firm, and the peons in my company recently got together for a b*tch-session about management. It certainly helped clear the air, but I was amazed by some of the things my colleagues were saying.
:) Sure, I'd love some more independence, and to get out from underneath management's thumb, but I also think that independence, and the responsibility that goes with it, is earned over time. They call this work, people, not recess.
The biggest issue people seemed to have was about management breathing down their necks and questioning their every move. Interestingly enough, the biggest complaints came from the people who have screwed up the most recently. They didn't seem to grasp the concept that if you and your work are consistently reliable, management leaves you alone more.
At least our managers are techies and understand what it is that we're doing out in the field. Of course, that means that they know enough to be dangerous.
I agree - 100%. That's why I work at a company that is the embodiment of managing by politics, and treasures the colleagues who try things they aren't qualified to do (we call this an 'entrepreurial spirit').
The true genious is this: I think we run the company this way so that when we work w/ our clients we have a huge base of experience to draw from. Spotting weak managers and incompetents is second nature to us!
Weird, huh? I know it sounds tongue-in-cheek but it's actually all true!
I'm a 2000 man.
if you consider being at school a job... which i don't, but if it was i'd mostly like it, all of it other than that work, which is most of it
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
It's not so much management. I've accepted that upper management never has a clue and have learned to deal with them.
My problem is just that I have little interest in the product or the company. I took this job largely because I needed to get out of my previous job (where management was truly clueless and the product was obviously never, ever going to ship). But when it comes down to it, I'm just not interested in the industry that this company is in.
I've been here for more than 5 years now. The entire time has been spent making changes to one product, a product that is built on a code base that is now about 12 years old. It has been cycle after cycle of "add this kind of support" here, and "change it so it works with that device" there. It's been the programming equivalent of putting lug nuts on wheels in an automobile plant.
Add to this that this company is a hardware company - it sells hardware and considers software to be the free toy surprise inside the package. We (software) get treated like the red-headed stepchild and must beg for time on the target systems to test our software. All of their documentation systems and procedures are geared toward supporting hardware. e.g. they can't understand why we don't release our software before testing it.
There was a project to rewrite our product, which was mismanaged. (A contractor was hired to lead it - turned out he talked a good game but couldn't discipline himself to focus on the real job and suffered badly from NIH syndrome.) So now we (the captive employees) have had to support this abortion.
Yeah, I need to get off my behind and get a new job, but I need to find a company I believe in, in an industry that interests me, that sees software as part of the product, rather than a side-effect of producing hardware.
-- I have monkeys in my pants.
From an earlier post in this thread:
You're right in that responsibility is finding the problem, tracking it down, fixing it, and making sure it doesn't recur. You're obligated to take responsibility for your actions.
But you are not obligated to take the blame for someone else's mess - to be the "sacrificial lamb" so someone else can duck responsibility. That's bullshit.
I make a big distinction between blame and responsibility. Blame is the BS "it's not my fault" finger pointing that goes on, often before a problem has been diagnosed. I know of LOT of management-types who are far more interested in crushing someone (sometimes anyone) underfoot than they are in finding out what went wrong and why. Only AFTER you've gone through that process can you find out who screwed up.
Talking with the person who screwed up so they don't repeat the error should be enough. That depends on how serious the error was, of course. Sometimes canning the offender is necessary, but that's rarely necessary except in the case of constant screwups. However, demeaning or berating someone is never appropriate. It's childish, unproductive, and turns good people into disgruntled employees.
> My premise is that no job will be perfect forever.
I don't diagree with your premise. What I disagree with is the statement that all jobs suck because at some point, they won't be perfect.
> At the very best, your job will suck sometimes.
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but at the very best, your entire life will suck sometimes. To ascribe this only to work for money is more than a little foolish. To wit, if you were handed all the money you needed to pay for the things you want, and you quit your job and never worked for money again, do you truly think your life would be perfect from that point on? If you do, you need to think about it a little harder. Simply put, a life spent in pursuit of nothing will get boring in a hurry, which will suck. A life spent pursuing something, but not for money, will still put you in the situation of having to do something you don't like, or not do something when you want to do it.
In short, expecting to be happy all the time is unrealistic whether or not you do work for pay. Jobs do suck sometimes, but then, life sucks sometimes. Saying that this means all jobs suck is overarching pessimism.
Virg
I work for a non-profit organization, and I must say, the quality of the workplace is top notch. I've worked for startups and .com's before and they can't begin to touch the feel of the .orgs. Perhaps it's the do-good nature of the organization, perhaps not, but the people are great and management is open to suggestions. :)
Big surprise - this is why ppl with MBAs get paid so damn much.
my job sucks so bad...i've got nothing to say about it.
to get new mangers that are equally inept.
Its a sad sad state of affairs.
Im a lowley monkey at a biotech company in Seattle. You would think that because of the ever increasing regulations imposed on this indutry that quality management is desirable. Ha Ha Ha, You IT guys think its bad, try dealing with nothing but PHD's of all types of disciplines, most of whom have little or no management experience or formal training in management. Most biotech companies are started by scientists, not businessmen/women so in any startup biotech, there is a very noticible and lacking skill base in project management. I'm am a lucky monkey, because my boss who is a very brilliant scientist, also happens to be good with people, but it took her 30 or so years in the field to get there. However, my company wastes inordinant amounts of time in innefective and poorly planned meetings. The founders of the company are just starting to catch on to the idea of agenda's and time limits for meetings. What we,(The Monkey's who write code, split DNA, and make the bench work happen) always complain about is one simple thing, well laid plans. To many managers in biotech try to start out by planning every experiment that is going to happen in a project. Pure waste, the reason why it's called science is because we don't know if it is going to work until we try it. It is imperative to do very simplistic experiments first as to not waste time and money. Poor management in this industry can literally cost billions on multiple projects and loss of IP rights, but it still persists because of the GOB/GIRL network. Nepatism rules the roost and scientists take politics to new heights. Just my 2, uh 10 cent's worth
I worked in the tech industry for four years with three different shops: two years doing systems admin and help desk, one year doing system admin and helpdesk, and another year doing systems and network admin and helpdesk.
Offhand, I'd say that all three jobs generally sucked rocks.
There were good things. I had some good managers/bosses in my first job. But the hard part in that job was dealing with the implementation of a new order fulfillment system. When you get rollouts or implementations, the best advice I can give is RUN. They're unpleasant at best, because you have not only your IT department working on it, but EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT working on it. And it's never a matter of your own department taking up the reins and saying 'We'll handle it!' Oh, no, nobody wants that. Finance, Marketing, Operations, EVERYBODY wants a say in the new system. It's like feeding time at the shark tank! And guess who's the halibut....
I can't say I've been very happy with any tech job I've been in. Most have had very depressing instances, frustrations, and the like. You have to be a very special kind of person to enjoy working in IT. (And if you are one of those people who say, "I thrive on stress!" I'd like to see you after two years of doing helpdesk and answering the phone with, 'How may I help you?' and discovering that it's ANOTHER person who can't print or turn on their computer.)
Ironically, I was glad I was downsized from my latest job; nothing like a kick in the keister to go and do what you feel more comfortable doing, what you WANT to do. Of course, it's sink or swim, but you have to always believe that it's worth it.
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
What better than to work from home, provided with two computers, and allowed to choose my own hours.
Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
One of the key things is this: there is always a trade-off between cost, time and functionality (including quality). Furthermore in most cases it is better to be 50% over budget or missing 50% of your functionality than 10% over schedule. This varies according to situation of course, and there are plenty of counter-examples (e.g. air traffic control). But most project managers know that the success of their project rests in getting it in on time regardless of cost and quality.
And they are right.
If you miss a market window your potential market share starts to drop exponentially as competitors take the lead. But of course all your competitors know that too, and are desperately trying to hit the market window defined by your launch date.
So when the PM comes down and tells you to get it shipped by Friday no matter how buggy it is, its not because he doesn't know his business, its because he does.
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
It's good hear that good companies DO exist!
Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
Would you use Superstats for your e-biz?
What is your Slash Rating?
I think that many people feel that a technical manager is better, but I disagree. I don't totally disagree, but I do to some degree.
A technical manager is good iff they know the limit to their knowledge. They shouldn't make decisions outside of their knowledge.
A manager is good iff they support their employees to do their job (aka run interference).
There are many qualities that make for a bad manager so we should best leave those alone.
int main() {
while (Manager_EMPLOYED) {
for (int i=0; iDIRECT_REPORTS; i++) {
if (employee[i] != HAPPY) {
root = findRootProblem();
correctProblem(root);
}
for (int i=0; iDIRECT_REPORTS; i++) {
if (employee[i] == jobComplete) {
giveRaise(employee[i]);
}
else {
if (employee[i] == blocked) {
runInterference(employee[i]);
}
else if (employee[i] == resourceStrapped) {
realignProjectPlan();
}
}
}
doProjectPlan();
doBudget();
hire();
fire();
}
}
Probably needs some work but it is at least better than most I've worked with.
rev
i work at a co-op. im the boss along wiht everyone else.
works great.
I left a perfectly good job, that otherwise I loved simply because I couldn't see eye to eye with my direct manager(Who had no real IT experiance herself and didn't know how to manage IT). Everytime I would complete a scheduled project she would cut the time estimated for completion on the next project by half. Her thinking was I could just re-use the scripts already created (yeah right like cut and paste, good grief!) I then would then have to argue till I was blue in the face to get the time back into the schedule that was cut. She would create unrealistic deadline which I would alway manange to meet and then get this...she accused me in a job evaluation of not meeting a deadline (which was untrue/ I was given an extension by the ower who realized I was killing myself to meet the stupid deadline). I flipped and quit!!! I have been manager phobic ever since. BTW I really love my new job now. But I'm afraid I'm going to lose it to a merger at the end of march, such a tragedy. kooks
Politics is about people screwing over people. Doesn't matter if it's government or corporate, local or national. It's about one group of people banding together to fuck over another group of people. It's about taking credit for someone else's work, or making another group look bad, or taking the good parts of the project and leaving the bad parts for another group, or making a mess and getting someone else to clean it up, or getting another group to do some of your work for you without compensating that group. It's looking for #1, without being obvious about it. It's about being sneaky - saying one thing and doing another.
"the essence of working with other people" isn't politics - that's called teamwork, or cooperation and is a good thing. BUT IT ISN'T POLITICS. The essence of politics is coercion and subjugation.
For those of you still wet behind the ears, big companies tend to have more politics than small companies. Understand you don't have to play politics if you don't want to, but don't be surprised if you keep getting fucked over. If you job isn't your life, who cares? Companies that don't have politics are generally too busy working to bother having some. Nothing breeds politics like a bunch of incompetent morons with too much time on their hands. Stupidity, incompetence and politics go hand-in-hand.
... period
But then again, I am probably repeating whatever anyone else is saying.
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
I can't believe how much of whine factory Slashdot has become. Seems like a bunch of really young Gen-X'ers just come to this site to ask dumb questions. Of course people hate their jobs. Most people do. But you do it every day because you have a mortgage, a wife and a baby at home, and you want to maintain some semblance of a stable lifestyle. Of course management has different ideals than you do. They're managers. They understand the business/accounting/bottom-line part of things and you don't, although you think you do. Just do your job to the best of your ability and worry about what YOU have to do. And if you don't like it, go somewhere else. The next place has a high possibility of being very similar to the last place you worked. Flame on.
When millions disappear from earth, it's not aliens, it's the rapture.
I would suspect you to be Matt Yarema of NuNet, Inc..
Evidence:
An embarrassing homepage hosted on small looking ISP NuNet, Inc..
The content seems consistent with a Slashdot users. Going to the profile on the band's page gives the proper background. The profile say he is working part time for Penn College computer services, but he may have changed jobs and the website has not been updated. It is a similar line of work.
I had a choice a few years ago to either get a job at Priceline.com or join a Fortune 10 company. With all the dot com hype a few years ago, I almost picked Priceline. The idea of working for a young company, lots of young people, great stock options, Capt Kirk almost lured me over.
In the end, I went with the Fortune 10 job and am I ever glad I did! I consider myself lucky that I work for stable company and still have a home life. They let me work one day a week from home, which allows me to spend the day with my daughter.
Some people thing that big corporations are evil, but I find them to be very stable with deep pockets. Plus, if you do a good job, exhibit a professional manner and act normal [you be surprised how many people I seen who got turned down for a job because we thought they were a little flakey] you'll excel.
Live web cams
Just be thankful you no longer work for idiots like that. I remember one of the software engineering manuals where the author had sat in on a manager and a tech expert. The expert said that the task would take X number of months. And the manager started to haggle. And the consultant sitting in started to laugh at him.
...) and programing, that most intricate software development involves.
This is always going to happen, because mostly the "business manager" is used to haggling with customers, not the intractable, imutable laws of physics (Yer cannae change the
Having said that, as a tech architect, knowing that every software development is a brand new challenge, how could anyone give you anything but a pretty wooly estimate. But having done the manager thing, I can pretty much say that most programmers are pretty agressive with estimates - you should always double them. Halving them for political expediency as a manager leads you to embarassment, or slopey shoulders syndrome and a lack of trust in your ability to manage from below in either case.
Good luck with your next job.
Fuck, i am unemployed
I apply for about 26 job, interview for 5 of them and none of them hire me.
Fuck fuck fuck.
And now I still live in my parent's basemet.
Fuck fuck fuck.
This is a little long winded so read on if you like, my main point is presented in the first two paragraphs.
There is a concept we have called science, call it education if you will, whose penchant is for understanding. Science attempts to label describe and explain our world. There is a concept we have called faith, call it ignorance if you will, but whose penchant is not for depriving us as a society of it's intelligence but rather granting us piece of mind. Please understand that I am in no way attempting to characterize RELIGION or make any statements about such, though RELIGION has it's place within the concept of faith.
If managers are to ever work for programmers and vica versa there needs to be an all encompasing truth and truce to be settled upon by the particular programmers and their respective managers. If you can understand that THIS moment, as you are reading this page, is your life and learn to live with it rather than desire a different existence RIGHT NOW you will make your life much easier. This is not to say you should give up hope or passion and become passive, but to realize that all those worries you have in your head and deadlines you have to meet are just matters of Faith. Little bits and pieces of concepts made up to make our world move. Start to learn to move with them rather than fight against them, and you managers out there start to learn to make as much of that movement as painless to follow as possible for your employees. Our lives are ultimately one big story, a big movie plot. Anything in the past is in the past and remaining is only a vague imprint of electricity in our, and perhaps others', brains. When you understant that this moment is all you'll ever have and accept the moment you have without scientific questioning and reasoning and explanation... a simple non judgemental observation of. "Hey, I exist. Hey, that's cool." is all it takes... then you can begin to truly focus on what does matter. For all you coders out there, at least I feel this way, what matters is the code, its design its goals, its form, its power and its elegance, and NOT the latest hype about synergistic team work, whether you have enough sick hours left to join that LAN party next weekend, and whether you're being paid enough - though I do admittedly find myself obsessing over that last one fart too often
By science we understand that which we can gather with our senses and compute with our brain, the so attributed "left hemisphere" types of processes. Just as a baby will drop an object to observe it fall so too do Programmers follow syntax, read, research, and experiment with different methodologies. Managers as all people also follow principles which they hold, gather new ideas and often attempt to implement them. With what frequency these personal scientific adventures are undertaken and in concern with what subject I belive is relegated to the realm of personal preference - personality.
By faith we understand the "unwritten" rules of life. The idea of common sense is an oxymoron because the common sense of a "head cheese" company president is almost sure to differ from a "starving artist" undergraduate. Faith is what allows us to understand terms such as starving artist. It is inextricably linked to our emotions. Faith is the instincts we posses, the feelings we have about a situation. Every person all the time has a state of mind that consists not only of their current thoughts, but current emotional state. To demonstrate this concept of faith to yourself try to explain the exact process by which - and granted you may have to take much liberty here if you can't even envision yourself dancing in the first place - you determine what movement you will make next while dancing. Try precisely explaining whether you believe in God to a non religious person and why, or vica versa. By faith we can both understand and accept that which we cannont rightly by the methods of science understand.
Some people just seem to have a better knack for doing things than others. Some people have an innate understanding of how to move his or her body to peak performance, some have an innate understaning of what notes sound best when played after other notes. The key to understanding management and for management the key to understanding programmers is to first understand ourselves and then attempt, even if for only momments at a time to understand the other person in the sitation. We may not be able to change the situation, the mind or the outcome of any given quagmire but we can at least understand ourselves and our relation to that quagmire. As many people on this post have pointed out already, if the job just isn't worth it it just isn't worth it and you'll be better of quitting and making less money for the sake of sanity and happiness. Pretending you are faced with a situation of that severity, the final decision, though it seems obvious to point out, lies entirely within your control and your existence, within the experiences that you've had, and the outcomes you've already encountered. Within the scientific evidence you've gathered and the validation of those hypothese you've expereienced or not experienced.
ramblin by
- entheon
Right on man!
In my experiences most managers don't have a clue, with one exception where the grand-poobah had a great business sense but had all the technical knowledge of his managed employees.
I think our problems lie in a situation where someone may have traditional business management skills, but has not started at the bottom of the food chain and earned their way up the ladder. As a result these managers don't know what is really going on. They can produce results on a silver platter, but at the cost of demoralizing the employees. On the other hand, folks who are skilled as programmers, for example, but lack organizational and people skills will have difficulty being promoted (or demoted depending on your preference) to managment levels. Personality and politics is a requirement for effective management, and not just geek knowledge.
Not saying your case of getting fired was right. Probably wasn't, but I'm not going to say it was wrong either. Could be (Just COULD) that someone had already told him _they_ could get it done in 3 weeks, and he gave you first chance at it, and you said you couldn't hack it... COULD BE, probably not, but could be...
As for the main post, "Managers Lack Vision" I would have to say, well, 75% completely lack vision, and the other 25% had vision once, but lost it. How many projects can you love, make great, and pour your heart and vision into, only to have it bastardized by either 1) Bad Marketing 2) Bad Upper Management Decision (managers have managers too!) or 3) Complete failure of the people working under you to deliver your visions. When you have vision, and never see it materialize, eventually you just give up.
Realize, there are TWO sides to most stories.
I mean I would really want his job. All you /. people (as in the head folks) get to sit around and work on your website and code whatever you want. Sounds good to me.
Spilled.net
I work in an entry level technical position. Even though my expertise and experience is much greater than that which is required for my job, I took it because hey, the market sucked and I have a family to feed.
The company I work for is very large and very stable. It's a bank, and even when the tech market "adjusted", the overall impact on my company was negligible.
So I do my job to the best of my ability, which is far better than most in my department, and for the most part I am recognized by being granted more responsibility and more say in the things that happen in the organization. I was even given the opportunity to coordinate the largest, fastest rollout the company has ever seen.
3600 Windows 2000 PCs across 120 locations, installed and configured by out-sourced techs who have no idea what our systems or proprietary applications are like, all completed in less than 8 weeks and me as the only single point of contact for all of the techs. I put out about 50 fires per night ranging from Server issues to Network outages and not once did a location have to fall back...not once.
I was told that it would be my ticket, my way out of my current boring, mindless position as a first-level support person.
I did well, better than anyone expected. I rarely escalated any problems past the point of a phone call. The entire project was called, "the most successful project in the company's history." One week later the company went through a massive re-org and where am I now?
Still changing passwords and asking retards to reboot when an application hangs on them. I attend the occasional meeting where my valued input counts towards the benefit of other departments and still sees me in the same place I have been for over 2 years.
So why do I hate my job?
Because no matter how many times I am commended for my excellent work, how many times my manager receives emails from our users that I went "above and beyond", no matter how many times my suggestion in a meeting gets implemented in the next production release, etc...
I am still in the same entry level position. I give this company everything it needs and more, and I get sweet fuck all. That's why I hate my job...
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake."...Tyler Durden
The moral of this story, only half told, is "fulfillment comes from within".
But morals, when condensed into pithy sayings never quite have the impact of a story unfolding.
Perhaps the author may find someday that even the community of people who share his passion is not really a necessary ingredient to happiness, more like frosting on the cake.
I work for managers who were programmer/hackers.
They still wanna be programmers and hackers, and when you encounter a problem comes along, they wanna do your work.
They want to know it all, and remember it all, and be involved in it all, but they just can't do it.
ARGH!!!!
I am a recent Computer Science grad!
I've always seen myself as a technical guy. I know about a rather wide range of technologies, languages, coding practices, designs etc. But where I lack is in depth. I know I'm not good at doing the "perfect" algorithm nor able to come up with a new cipher for cryptography.
Over the last few years a dreaded realization has come over me. The technical aspect which I love, really isn't my primary strength! Most all feedback I get on those yearly "employee evaluations", written by managers, PMs as well as customer project evaluations are all saying that I have "enough technical skills" and should really focus on management / project management.
The reason given, is that I am supposed to have the ability to talk, coordinate and enhance the performance of the team's I'm working with.
This is like a big punch on my ego. _I_ want to be part of teams creating all these new cool technologies, not a "paper shuffler"!
Point is, some people obviously have some qualities / strengths, which might not be in line with what one desires to do for a living.
Some people are good at certain stuff, some are not, regardless of their background.
As a side note.
The way I'm currently handling this "crisis" is by entering projects or organizations and proposing changes (organizational or process wise), help planning these while making sure that everyone knows that IANAM (I Am Not A Manager) but only there for advising managers and helping / listening to the techies and assist getting their points across.
(It's often a lot easier to cross the border of "management levels" / "management jurisdiction" in order to get changes through if one comes from the outside).
Perhaps this is just a "cowardly" result of not wanting to grasp the manager role as a whole?
I wonder, has anyone else been in a situation as this, where your strengths have not been in line with your internal image, and how have you handled it?
In a society that believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda ~ Bill Durodié
For once in my long career I actually like my manager and even his manager and (egad!) even the CEO. Maybe I am getting soft in my old age (well for a software nerd anyway). However, I think the entire commercial software industry has very serious problems that make the life of developers in their organization suck almost as much as the majority of the software they put out. I think that the mixture of proprietary code, software patents, and what passes for capitalism result in a lot of duplicated effort, landmines galore and products pushed out as quickly as possible without infuriating the customers too badly. Under the standard proprietary software company model there is not much else you can do and be successful. As an industry we sell a lot of sizzle and very little steak. We can't build good tools for ourselves because there is always some emergency catch-up mode either fixing our existing buggy mess or writing more slap-dash code to be competitive or slogging through "process" that doesn't help really produce anything except busywork and documents that are forgotten soon after they are finally approved. Also, tools companies can't generate enough revenue for the effort and money invested generally speaking. So our development tools haven't improved significantly in over a decade and a half! Software methodologies are used more as panaceas than with some wisdom. Turning software into a manufacturing process simply does not work as the analogy is totally bogus. Often managers will act in stupid ways because they are responding to the emergency of the moment and because they are constrained to do something cost-effective right now even if the problem is not of the type that can be addressed in such a manner. Companies are also constrained by industry hype to satisfy even quite bogus and inapplicable "requirements" before potential customers will even let them in the door. The entire industry keeps getting caught in brain-dead standards (not that all standards are brain-dead) that totally screw the creation of real viable solutions to the actual problems. One such idiotic "standard" is the notion that everything for business users must be done server side and the server side should build web-pages to tell the dumb client web browser to draw something. Huge amounts of the industry are perverted to do everything in this manner even where it makes absolutely no real sense because this is "what sells". Real effective GUIs and efficient division of work over available resources are almost toally absent in this "standard". Personally I think that Open Source is the only type of software that stands a chance of getting beyond some of the current evils. But I am not holding my breath as currently very little is being done there either to actually make software development, reusue, design, design extraction and so on stronger. Without that the wheel gets reinvented over and over again still and the process is just as buggy and inefficient as in closed-source projects.
..Whatever job you do, one of the greatest abillities you can have is that you can admit where you 're missing the needed knowledge. That way people will teach you the most and you can still show your master capabillities when they enter your terretory.
For tech people it's maybe a bit easier to conform to this because they are more confronted with hard facts. Many managers however try to get away by bluffing to their superiors and colleges because they tend to get away with it.(many of them lack the nessecarry knowledge)
--red.
That's all folks!
My girlfriend had been pushing me to go to Hello Work this summer and I was damn reluctant.
Being unemployed is depressing enough without having to go to some dreary government beaurocracy and staring at a green terminal or flipping through grimy printouts of manual labor positions.
Boy was I wrong - I went to the Iidabashi branch and found it to be clean, well-lit and running modern computers. The staff was helpful and the job listings well-organized.
I was truly impressed.
This is how this sort of thing should be done. The US should have this sort of system.
Before you say "well, Japan is so much more technologically advanced", take a look over here - In most areas, Japanese business is technologically 20 years behind the US. They are famous for making computers, not particularly for *using* them.
Thanks for the link, I didn't know they had a website.
Cheers,
Jim
-- My Weblog.
Title says all.
As a "subordinate", it's your job to keep your manager informed. It's your job to suppliment your supervisors' knowledge in your area of expertise. It's YOUR job to use YOUR skills to support your manager in any way that you can.
When your managers don't understand something, inform them but always in terms of what it means to them, and what it means to the company.
Contrary to popular slashdot-ish opinion, your managers are not babysitters. Their job is to give your work direction and to handle administrative things that might be preventing you from following that direction. Your job is to make their dreams become reality, or to guide them to more realistic dreams.
Grow up.
Your managers and you are co-workers with totally different areas of expertise and vastly different responsibilities. It's thier job to know what they need you to do, and it's your job to know how to do it, or to let them know if their expectations are unrealistic.
If your managers are clueless, it's only because you haven't spent enough time feeding them clues!
I've seen many, many managers without a clue. When they try to help, they usually just get in the way. Thank God I am now self-employed. Its been a smart move for me. No longer do I worry if I am going to get laid off, or have to take a cut in pay, or clean up the mess caused by a fellow co-worker.
I am not a manager, but I have worked for a few of them in my time. From what I can tell, there are two separate tasks that any manager must perform.
First, they must handle all of the administrative/business stuff. This means doing things like schedules, purchasing, calculating ROI, budgets, etc. From talking to people that have gotten their MBA's, this is the sort of thing that they learn about in their "management" classes. Most managers that have gone through some sort of formal management training seem to have this part of the job down pat.
The second aspect of managing is motivating and leading the people who work for you. This doesn't seem to be taught in any sort of formal way (note that MBA stands for Masters of Business ADMINISTRATION, not Business Leadership). It seems that most managers fail at this aspect of the job, and failing seems to be at the heart of most complaints that we technical people have about our managers. Most of the complaints on this topic are the result of managers who either don't know how to motivate their techies, or who do things that actually DE-motivate their techies.
Apparently, this is a subject that isn't taught in those management classes.
Steven McConnell's book _Rapid Development_ devotes several chapters to the subject of motivating developers. He makes the case that developer motivation is the number one most important factor in determining whether or not a project succeeds. He then goes on to discuss ways in which developers can be motivated, and ways in which they can be de-motivated.
One of the the more interesting things that he mentions is that surveys have shown that managers and developers are motivated by different things. He suggests that this may be one of the reasons why there is often a disconnected between managers and developers. For example, while managers are often motivated by "rah-rah" speeches, technical people are put off by these sorts of things because they seem phony. On the other hand, developers are often motivated by working on interesting projects where there is the possibility for growth, while managers are less concerned with this sort of thing. The trick is to motivating developers is understand what motivates them, and then to deliver.
Also, he mentions that developers are often motivated by the work itself, meaning they want to feel "good" about the work that they are doing. Developers derive a lot of satisfaction from a job well done. However, managers often undermine this by demanding that developers cut corners, that they do not get to use the latest tools and techniques, that they do not have any control over the techical decisions, etc. There is nothing more de-motivating than when you do not feel good about the work that you are doing. Nobody ever felt a sense of accomplishment over a mass of spaghetti code that was thrown out the door.
Anyway, if you are looking for a good read about motivating developers and technical management in general, I suggest you read _Rapid Development_. In my opinion, it should be required reading for all technical managers!
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www.moneybythenumbers.com
I've been a software engineer for about 6 years now and worked on about 10 different project managers. Some were really good, some awful. I've actually found the quality of the project manager to be one of the most important factors in determining whether a project will be successful.
The good managers were usually either:-
- Good management guys who knew little about development, and thus relied upon their programmers to tell them how something should be done and how long it would take.
OR
- Good and experienced developers who have become project managers, and fully understand the development process and how to manage a programming team (which again, often tends to be to take a step back and not micromanage).
The bad managers were always, without exception:-
- Guys who are themselves very good developers, were forced into management for business reasons, but never worked closely as part of a team. Often guys who set their own companies up without prior experience. About 30% of my bad managers were like this. They tend to exhibit micromanagement, bad social skills as they don't know how to deal with a team, and expectations that everyone in the world should program their way and at their speed.
- Guys working in medium to large companies who are mediocre programmers, and never had the ambition or talent to move around between jobs, and thus got stuck in the same job for 5+ years. The senior management then needs a new project manager, and doesn't promote the skilled programmer because he's too valuable as a programmer, and instead promotes the mediocre programmer who's been there for a while. This has accounted for 70% or so of my bad managers. They tend to exhibit an inferiority complex regarding their programming skills (will often try to do a core programming task in their 'spare time' and screw it up), bad social skills and a conservative, funless attitude.
Good managers tend to be relatively hands-off, work with the team, get estimates from the team rather than dictating to them, back their team up with upper management and learn how to say 'no' to overeager users, sales officers and management. They tend to be easygoing, pro-casual attitude, pro-homeworking, pro-Quake-after-hours, etc.
Bad managers tend to be looking over your shoulder all the time, micromanagers, agree deadlines with users, sales officers and management without consulting development staff or even trying to think what is reasonable, always agree to user features without consulting the dev team and back management up over their team. They tend to be strict, dislike casual clothes at work, games at work, music at work or working at home.
I wish I could say there were exceptions, but really there aren't. 6 years is not a great deal of time, but it's enough for me to feel like a grizzled veteran and be able to easily isolate the properties of a good project manager.
1. You need to have a source of income. Do just start something without having at least a few contacts.
.COM by hiring a dozen people at the start. Start out small, learn the ropes before you start hiring.
2. You got to manage your priorities. Priority 1 is being able to collect income. If you selling a service you need to generate invoices and follow up to make sure they get paid! If you ignore your invoices, your customers aren't going to either. Expect to spend 2-5 hours a week managing billing!
3. Accounting. As a corporation or a consultant you'll have to submit quarter returns and payments to pay your taxes.
4. Sales: If you can't sell don't bother trying to start a business. It so important to know how to generate leads and follow them through to getting a project.
5. Think small! Don't go the way of a
I'm supprised that Cowboy Neal is not winning this poll...
I mean what can beat sitting on your @$$ all day pretending to pretend to do nothing..
(sidenote to CN: Hey, I tease because I love... I'm ur biggest fan)
CoyboyNeal is God
What businesses need to understand their is a position called software Engineer. A person who has an engineering background that can program too. If you engineer the program before you begin to code you save yourself a lot of time. It really sucks to write a few thousand lines a code only to find out you've coded yourself into corner because you didn't think things out.
I'll agree with you on the few languages thing.
After half a decade of IT work, somebody out there would have half a clue as to what they're doing.
:)
You would think somebody out there would say, "Hey! I wonder what would happen if we, like, promoted someone who knew what they were doing, or something?"
Wouldn't that be more intelligent, from a company's standpoint? Promote them, before they get so fed up and leave to start their own company--and become your competitor.
Hell, it's been working for TI for about a hundred years (hmm, TI = IT backwards...).
miyax
If you're shrewd enough, you can get them to release their ownership on selected projects that might overlap with your own. I got 10 of my projects specifically stated in my NDA/NC agreement that deny my current employer any claims on the work done, even if it's overlapping with stuff they're doing. Since they're all open source projects (or they're going to be...) they had little issues with allowing me those consessions in IP ownership.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
You need lower marks to get into ITM (Info tech management) than to get into CS, So why are these people going to be my boss? My friend dropped out of CS and went into ITM. And everyones shocked by all these tech companies going under ;)
"You're not satisfied with your job? Kate, why didn't you tell me? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone. They meet at the bar." - Drew Carey
"Anonymous cowards are just K-whores afraid of their accounts being modded down." - Bob the O (me)
Up until now, this was a great job.
Now it just sucks.
I unfortunataly got a new boss recently. He is pro Linux, yet he confinscated all our Mp3s due to them being in violation of the DCMA. And, for some reason he thinks Win2000 is the _worst_ of all the microsoft products, under the "I looked at it long enough to know it's bad." Gaah!
Management is a necessary evil. One recent experience made that ultimately clear when I started working for a newly opened branch of [company name]. Upper management told us to find our own work then yelled at us for not being billable. They finally hired (suckered?) an ex-military R&D manager for us (a very cool guy) who made me realize just how good he was -- he had vision, knew how to use the employees, and fought upper management when they made bone-headed decisions. In the end, they closed the branch just before out options matured.
Customers are very often like bad management -- they have no clearly defined vision, and they tell you how to do your job when they have no (or worse, little) clue -- so I will lump them together.
Here's my Cliff's Notes(TM) Guide to Happiness in the Workplace:Interpersonal skills are a must. Anyone who says they want to program in isolation is a moron. Management is not a one-way street. You have to be able to clearly (if simply) describe to management what you are doing so they can make the appropriate decisions. Is most cases I find that when I can get management/customers to understand what I am doing and why I made certain design decisions they end up agreeing with me 100%.
Perhaps the hardest thing to do is what I call Requirements Mining. It's a dirty, hard, labor- and mental-intensive process whereby you extract the vision from management/clients. This process can take lots of time and meetings. You have to be able to listen to what management says and, more importantly, to listen to what they're not saying. After mining, you have to cut and polish the gems to present back to management for further review.
Permit me a brief example:
Boss come to you and says "build me X". You have no idea what "X" is, so you schedule a meeting to find out: 1) what is the status quo, 2) what is the problem, and 3) what is the proposed solution. You write up a report with rough sketches and schedule another meeting. More people attend, the vision is further refined. You ask direct and pointed questions. Repeat two or three times till you can come up with a solid understanding and schedule. Present your proposal (design, schedule, estimated cost (if applicable)) to management. Include some options in there to make management feel important but try to convince them that they should pick the one you already decided was the correct one. (After all, you should know your job better than they, no?)
The project is proceeding smoothly with regularly scheduled meetings to display progress. Suddenly, a boss (not your immediate manager) comes to you and says he needs "feature Y because it was promised by sales, so we have to have it." First, redirect him to your immediate supervior. Second, come up with the cost (schedule slip) and inform your manager of the consequences of his choice. Document (even if it's via e-mail) that you told him what would happen when the choice was made and do whatever it is that is decided.
It doesn't matter that the project is now four months late due to feeping creaturism. Why? Because you've already documented the consequences of other people's poor decisions on choices that were never your to make in the first place. You can go home at the end of the day with a clear conscience.
It's only a job.
As a non-manager (and never want to be), my theory is the scum of any organization floats to the top.
Or, you are promoted to your highest level of incompetance (but I know that concept has already been around for a long time).
HP tried the "dual ladder" approach a few years ago. Idea was that engineers could rise just as high as management (including pay), but still do mostly techical and/or design work.
In reality, the tech side of the ladder simply doesn't go as high as the manager side, even today. And engineers that try to start moving up that tech ladder basically get saddled with managerial duties.
More non-technical responsibility with no commensurate increase in decision making power. NO THANKS.
My job consists of testing new portable systems that won't be sold for months. I get to rip them apart, use them, and just have a lot of fun. I also get to be the wired and wireless networking guy. I wouldn't want to work anywhere else.
Fuck no.
It is easy to label managers as PHBs and start muttering "clueless" behind their backs. It is easy to denigrate them when they make silly decisions.
However, just s'pose, having done the grunt job for years, along you come with an idea, and
WHAMMO.
You are now "da man".
Ok. Do you act like a putz and force the thing through over the sweat and blood stained worker-bees? Do you cow-tow to the primadonnas and ignore your management at your peril?
No.
You do something very hard. You manage your bosses expectations, by working with your team to understand the goals and objectives, the timeline, and the plan to get there. You make sure the goals are realistic. You show the downside of rushing. You show the upside of doing things the right way (this is for your bosses). You discuss and implement a triage on features, functionality. You do not let egos get in the way of doing the right thing.
I read somewhere once that as a boss, "no accomplishment should escape your eye, no matter the size" as in at least giving an "ata-boy/girl" when good things happen. When bad things happen, you need to manage the impact of the badness. Limit the damage, understand the issues (dont need to understand the technical side, just the consequences).
This means as a manager, you need to be engaged with your team. You need to speak with them often. It also means you need to speak with your bosses often.
I view my role as running interference for my team. Keep the higher ups from promising silly things and times. I also see my role as working with my team to help them establish the priorities, and make sure that we are on target to achieve our objectives.
Remember the trick is management of expectations.
This means that you the guy/gal doing the work need to make sure you communicate clearly to your manager. Not all managers know their projects technically inside and out. It sometimes helps, but sometimes it gets in the way.
Remember when communicating with a non-technical manager that they need help understanding. Dont use jargon. Use simple explainations. Use simple examples. Make sure they understand. If they dont, how can they run interference for you? They are not stupid (or if they are, then sorry). They may not understand the issues, or the terminology.
Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to learn how to communicate with them. If you have a boss with a clue, but no technical experience, they can help you achieve your goals. You need as a team not to jargon them to death, or get into all manner of technical detail that makes their eyes glaze over and see little puppies playing in the meadow...
Well you get the picture.
I encourage my team to develop skills, ideas, and so forth. I have a deadline established by my boss, but if my team cannot deliver that deadline then I am not doing my job. That deadline is set in part because my team and I talk regularly (every day, several times) about where we are, what they need, and so forth. The deadline is agreed upon, and realistic. My job is to sell this to management, and to temper the teams desire to do everything... some features/functionality will need to wait, but everyone needs to agree that we are doing the right thing.
I dont ask my team to do anything that I wouldnt do.
Being a manager is hard work. Doing it right is difficult. You wear many hats. If senior management is making bad decisions, well they could have an agenda, they could be stupid, or they could have bad information and incorrect expectations. Most of the time it is the bad expectations. Though one companuy I worked at watched an EVP ride us down from 3 B$/year to under 1 B$/year, based in large part upon his incredibly stupid decisions. That is rare though, stupid people generally do not survive on top. The smart ones will learn what they need to do to sit on top.
What they do is, learn how to manage expectations, promise what they are sure they can deliver (usually a little less if they are really smart).
Sound familiar?
Who would have thought it!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
i like my job in the air and space division. I breathe air and take up space.
Thank god for the karma bonus system, which makes it possible for an insightful poster such as yourself to make your voice heard above the noise and rancor of /.
That just reminded me of a scene in Excalibur toward the end of the movie. A knight is wounded, with the sword stuck in him. He grasps the hilt, and plunges inward, embracing death. I feel as though we resist change and attempt to find our nirvana, but maybe embracing (change) is the best way.
I've also heard a great line, "Often the thing men (and of course women) are most afraid of is success." It's what stops us from leaving the boring or excruciating jobs, and striking out on our own... or somesuch. (obscure DFW sport talkradio reference)
"Oh? You hate your job? Why didn't you say so. There's a support group for that. It's called everyone and they meet at the bar."
But seriously.. I work at a ski resort. I've got about 40 days of skiing in so far. So while you might have been sitting at your desk working on Thursday morning, I was busting through 2 feet of powder in Vail's China Bowl. How can I hate a job like this?
----- obSig
I get to work in porno... and I gotta say, it is all it's cracked up to be. Love doesn't quite cover my deep emotional bond with my employment.
My idea was to reduce the number of applicants for a position.
Firstly, I have a staff of employment consultants in the office. When an application for a job comes in over the web, one email is sent to the person who entered the job, and one to the account manager of the company that offers the job. The candidate (if new) is allocated to a "primary contact" who then becomes a sort of case manager for that candidate. My idea was that the primary contact would immediately call the candidate on the phone (whoah, radical) and asses their chance of getting the positions they asked for.
(On a side note, have you ever worked at a company where a position has opened up? Have you seen the giant pile of CVs that magically appears? So many of them a pure junk or pure fiction.)
Disclaimer: I wrote myjob.ie for a commercial company, but I get just as much money for sitting on my hands doing nothing as I would get if myjob.ie got ten thousand applicants a day. In fact, this comment will probably mean more work for me [D'oh! ] so take this comment as biased advice, not commercial advertising. Or something.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
This is a book project: "Unrealistic schedules, unstable releases, continual overtime, and skyrocketing stress levels are legendary in the software development industry." Here, you can submit your own experiences in the software development world. I don't know the book, but it might be interesting.
peace, love, respect
Some people have a natural talent for this, and they can become good managers without education -- but in most cases I would prefer to get someone with some credentials (other than being a former programmer)...
The interactive way to Go -- http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/
This seems like an appropriate time to mention the Slackers Guild.
.sig doesn't mention it for me.
Not that my
Do you want to understand why your manager has no clue how to make you proud of your work? Read "Out of the Crisis" a book written by Edward Deming in the 60s about US Management. It still applies today, I am sorry to say. After reading it, send it anonymously to your CEO as a present.
Whether technical people are better at management or not does not affect the job experience. I feel it is the process of selection of the role, rather than how closely the core skill matches it, that makes the difference.
A friend's page, describing the same idea :
http://voux.tripod.com/dwg/dwg.htm
My Manager (former co-worker) became the manager because she had relations with the Managing Directors. She does not have the skills required to do the job she has and is consistently getting involved in other projects company wide that she has no clue about but makes a big stink and people think that she knows what she is doing. The problem with this is - that she makes life a living hell for me. Work was ok when the old boss was around and I was able to do a lot for the advancement of the Firm ( things that other could not do I got done!) but now - I could not give a rats ass about the work or the company because of all the hoops they made me go through and the consistent promoting of morons to higher positions. I work with 3 others in my group (1) is the Boss - and you know what she can and cannot do, (2) Is a Temp - She is just the Boss's pet and a Spy for her ( she will find out later on that people you work with do not like it when you spy on them and then tell the boss... Not a choice career move), (3) Is The Gopher - She is always coming out of her hole and in everyone's business - she always has to be "RIGHT" even when she is wrong - all the time. She has no skills to speak of and really should go back to the Mid-west and help her daddy out with the farm because she is really good the maintenance of SHIT. I think I am going to get a monkey from one of the animal colleges to do my job - as it is simple enough to have one do. This way I can get out and see the finer thigs in life because I am losing oxygen fast in this oxygen grabing firm. Just keep getting the pellet pay and look for another place - Better yet - Start your own company because No one became a billionaire by working for someone else
I noticed this poll right after a presentation on "restructuring" and after we were invited to apply for voluntary redundancy... I'm sitting thinking "how much do I REALLY like this job..?", learning new phrases such as "displaced employees", and then I flip to slashdot... how poignant.
Also, it's interesting to note how many people say no, they hate their job. How sad!
Personally I love the _role_, or I wouldnt be a geek. I even like making customers happy - but don't tell anyone >:) Whether I am happy _where I work_ really comes down to the organisation and management. In the worst cases, they dont manage - they just try to control. That's when you know it's time to go.
;-)
I haven't read that in 20 years. I guess I should find read it again, although finding it after 6 or 8 moves might be a problem.
you should leave a shithole state like texas.
My structure is everyone gets paid low. When the company meets our targets we pay huge quarterly bonuses. This gives the employees incentive to make the company successful. It also gets rid of the what's in it for me mentality. Also if 3/4 the team is busting their ass and the other 1/4 is slacking then payback is a bitch because we do quarterly peer/boss reviews along with the bonuses. I don't always hire qualified individuals I hire people with fire in their eyes that can be empowered to enjoy their job and work their ass off when they are at work. But I always want someone who says their family/life comes first. When I interview someone and ask them about their previous jobs, I always gauge their response to how did working that many hours affect your family/social life. If they come from a job that they worked 12 hour days and they say it didn't, they are out the door. I find getting college students with drive is far more effective than just hiring someone on experience. Because technology changes so quickly I want someone who can learn and quickly adapt without the fear of change. The two most difficult things I've encountered is reigning in "Experienced Persons" attitudes, and limiting scope for the "Excited Newbie" who wants to implement every new thing in the world without real justification to the bottom line or customer satisfaction....
Sorry to be picky but the quote goes more like. "Well, looks like you have been missing a lot of work lately Peter." "Well I would say I've been missing it."
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Pla
When my money-bleeding company stiffed me.
So I softened it by expensining some goodies at http://wwww.softpro.com. So maybe it isn't so bad.
I suppose this poll doesn't bode well for Slashdot's demographics. When a huge percentage of the readership is unemployed I'd venture to say that ad customers might raise an eyebrow or two.
I like my job, but I hate the company I work for.
Not bad really, but I was very disappointed when I tried to sleep my way to the top and found out it doesn't seem to work well for pasty white male engineers.
The job itself is ok, I like what I do, but its the management and atmosphere I don't enjoy. I work for a small college in charge of all web design and development. The catch is I work in the department alongside fundraisers and other such positions, not in the IT department. That means nobody knows what I do really, we don't have much in common at all except the same boss, and most of them are quite a bit older than I. The boss doesn't understand much about my position either, just knows that it fits into our strategic plan. For the most part that's ok, but my biggest gripe is that I could easily do this all from home (and with a nicer machine) and even if there's a blizzard, I am expected to come in just because that's what everbody else has to do. I am also required to dress up and come in early because that's what they all do. Atmosphere at a college is so different from that at a business.
I guess I shouldn't complain because I do have a job, but I feltlike contributing to the discussion.
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
I work for small (and rapidly shrinking) company still hanging on from the dot-com era. Our management is nothing short of terrible. We've been told that it's the *management* team that gives the company value. Our management actually believes this!
So, when it comes time for layoffs, we pick and choose among the developers and other worker bees, instead of the bloated executive staff. As if laying off an underpaid developer who actually creates the product we sell will save more money than getting rid of an exec who doesn't turn a buck for the company. Incredible!
We're now so top heavy, if our company was a weeble we'd be standing on our heads. In a company of approximately 25 people, 6 are executives, but we only have 3 developers left! Do the math there.
Is there a well managed SW company out there?
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2 + 2 = 5 (for sufficiently high values of 2)
management considers us to be interchangable peices. just a little while ago they moved our project to another location, for inept people to try and work on. Managment thought, "hey, now we have 5 more people to do other stuff!" In the end the ineptness of the other group wa found out. The project came back and we were all allowed to continue where we left off. Meanwhile we lost a month of time. The deadline was not moved, So we had to work our butts off to finish the release on time. All because of managements stupidity.
I wish they would learn something. People are not interchangable. They are working there because they like what they do. Don't alienate them by shifting their work out from under them. That's just asking for them to quit out of the company.
Nevertheless, we still assume managment will do something again to screw us over sometime this year...perhaps in the fall...as always.
they have been promoted beyond usefulness, as if they were ever useful...
why do they make any money at all?!
The amount of time "wasted" in college could be better spent on reading books and getting computer certification IMHO.
:P
Most of the people I know going to college DON'T KNOW what they wan't to be when they get out in the workforce, I do. I want to be a System Administrator. Instead of being anything and everything, I'm concentrating on one goal.
Also I don't think college is right for me. CS degree seems more directed towards programming. And I don't want to be a software programmer since those jobs will be most likey sent to other countries like India and Malaysia. My dad even admitting that having a college degree doesn't help one bit, and why would having a degree in French Poetry + my experience be better than having CCNA + MCP + MCSE + RHCE + CCNP + many more certifications + my experience?
Sorry buddy, college is not right for me. Plus I'd probably be distracted by all the college girls and parties, and never get any work done
"The Airforce - because college is for homos" --SNL