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Perception of Linux Among IT Undergrads
iconian writes: "The Linux Journal has a story on IT students and their perception of Linux. One of the funnier myths perceived to be true is that 'Microsoft's technical support is the best in the industry and is superior to that offered by the Linux community.' It just goes to show how little real world experience students have. It's a bit disturbing considering they will be the next generation of technology workers."
I didn't finish my undergrad work yet, and took a job in the linux field. Love linux, hated learning crap MS propoganda in school, so I left... Will finish eventually, but not yet... Enjoying what I do way too much... :)
ps- First Post?
This is my Sig.
In my college it was exactly the oposite. Linux was everywhere espically amoung the computer students. And pictures of bill gates where burnt around the campus. ;-)
Cruise TT
Best tech support in the world? #debian and #linpeople on irc.openprojects.net. They correctly diagnosed my problem (use of windows) and helped me get a really nice solution (linux) running.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
At some level, it might make _some_ sence. As more and more newbie's come into the linx system, it becomes more and more difficult for newbies to ask for the famed linux support and community help. Even if you somewhat know what you are talking about, you risk going thru 2 to 10 emails telling you all the obvious things, and in less nicer words to not bother them, before you get even close to a real conversation. (i just went thru this for a few kernel bugs, which are finaly starting to get fixed).
;-)
Ofcource, when that fails, IBM, Redhat and other big companies can still offer top level support for linux
I'm hardly shocked. This is just the next generation of suits that I saw cranked out in the late 90s... mindless Visual Basic drones who couldn't program their way out of a paper bag, the schlocks who got all As but couldn't think on their toes to solve real problems.
;-)
For the most part, we wouldn't hire them to work at the on-campus computer labs. They could never debug problems unless they had the manuals open, and even then... fat chance.
These are the future ineffectual middle-managers, the guys who got into computers because 4 years ago, they were told dot.com was the way to go... oops, sorry kids, no jobs for you! (*)
(*) unless your frat buddies get them for you, but we'll know that's how you got in, and we'll make you pay for it
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
They only polled recipients of Bill Gates' "Millenium" scholarships.
Were these "day" students or "night" students? There is a difference. Most daytime students are younger and are more likely (if in CS) to already know and understand issues about Linux. Night students, on the other hand, are more likely to be older and less familiar with Linux.
Yes, if you are older you are more likely to already be comfortable with some other operating systems.
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no MS lover, but do you REALLY honestly feel Linux has better techsupport than MS products??
Basically, in the past when Ive had a NT/2000 or MSSQL issues I've paid my $200 bucks and got it worked out... everytime. Its not free or fun, but generally MS's paid corporate support is actually quite efficient.
Anytime I've had a Linux issue I have basically been told to RTFM.
The two rules for success are:
1) Never tell them everything you know.
Thus far in my exp in the IT world @ Fortune 500 companies I have worked for. EMC then MS have offered the best support for the buck that I have gotten out of a company
i love people who LIE about linux this and that in their school.... what school.. what program? what degree? liar..
Most of my professors generally start class off with a few minutes of Microsoft bashing. I wouldn't dare admit to my professors that I use Win2k... and I'm not joking.
One of my interns at work is a CS undergrad, and I think he's pretty typical of the breed. Talks about Linux all the time to be 'leet, but still gave me a resume done in Word on his pirated Win2K partition.
Schools are a tough nut to crack for OSS, because students have no moral qualms about piracy and a lot of professors demand closed file formats for assignments to be electronically filed.
--saint
If IT or IT-track college students are coming up with ideas like "Linux is too hard to use" or "it needs a common GUI", what hope does Joe Sixpack have of getting things sorted out?
Is there a quick answer? No, not really. It will take time for the *nix "mystique" and myths to die out...
I love LINUX. I hate Microsoft. People should stop using Microsoft and start using LINUX.
If microsoft's proposed settlement where they will provide 1 billion dollars of free software goes through, then really free software will suffer.
Imagine a scenario where a student only sees microsoft software throughout his/her k-12 education.
By the time they reach college where *nix has a stronger foothold they won't know what to do.
Better to get the cash from microsoft to buy modern pc or macs, instead of getting free MS software the old pcs.
Tomorrow's IT professionals don't understand this simple distinction? *That's* what we're dealing with?
Information Technology (IT) is for businessy type people, computer science (CS)use Unix and various clones of it.
>One of the funnier myths perceived to be true is that 'Microsoft's technical support is the best in the industry and is superior to that
>offered by the Linux community.'
While I can not speak to using the pay-per-use support of the Linux Vendors, if you use Microsoft's Incident based support system, It is really really damn good. I have not contacted any other Vendors where you can call w/ a technical support problem and speak to the developers of the application at 11:00 at night.
Please do not flame... I am not saying that the Linux community provides bad support. In terms of free support services, they kick M$ ass.... I am only speaking to my experience w/ Microsoft's Pay-per-incident support....
"It's a bit disturbing considering they will be
the next generation of technology workers.",
As well as the next generation of drones working
under a Cheney-Rumsfield administration.
Thanks and have an Afghan opium-filled day.
Isn't this a little bit of an overreaction? Of course people without any experience aren't going to have much insight.
Two year olds defecate in their pants and smile, but we don't go around complaining that "these are the future leaders of our country."
What concerns me more is the (subset of the) current generation of technology workers who think that Microsoft is a superior choice.
Dark Age of Camelot servers are fucking being patched AGAIN so I have some time to troll today.
Actually I have never seen good tech support outta open source companies. HOWEVER, Sun beats MS's punky little ass as far as support is concerned.
Don't mod me, bro'!!!!
Considering the development models of the two operating systems, asking which one is "better" doesn't make much sense. Well to me, anyway.
Blar.
You have a Windows PC with a subtle problem which is preventing it from running (possibly a trashed library or something similar). It contains several complex pieces of installed software such as Visual C++ that have had their configurations customized. Obtain a fix for the problem and return the PC to service with all configuration exactly as it was initially except for the broken bit now working. This is a pass/fail assignment, any discrepancy will result in you getting an F for the course.
Now do the same with a Linux box with a horked copy of bash preventing a boot.
Come on, guys .. I like Linux just as much as the next guy does, but I would hardly call it a "myth" to say that Microsoft's tech support is far better than anything you'll get with a Linux-based solution. Is it expensive? Sure. Is it cumbersome? Maybe. But at least it's there. Telling somebody to go out and read some FAQ or ask a question to a newsgroup isn't going to do much good, particularly if that person doesn't know what a FAQ or a newsgroup is.
/. reader went to school, we had a background with an Internet that had never heard of the "World Wide Web", we posted to USENET religiously, and many of us were subscribers to the venerable SF-LOVERS list. ;-)
.. this doesn't mean that Microsoft's solutions are any better, just that they're more established.
;-)
Most IT undergrads these days don't know a lot about the Internet (or at least, they don't know a lot about it yet.) These are kids that were born in the mid 1980s, for crying out loud. When the average
The kids these days don't know much beyond Internet Explorer and Visual Basic and all those sorts of things because by and large, they haven't been exposed to the real world yet. Now this doesn't mean they won't be eventually, but at the current time their experience is limited. That aside, I still think we need to consider that the point is valid. Microsoft's tech support is better than anything you'll get with Linux-based solutions
That's okay, it gives us something to work on.
don't need no stinkin tech support. =]
Actually I can see the point of the article. The Linux crowd is def. considered snooty and unapproachable. (just a perception from real world experiences) I know while I was an undergrad and had a linux question I would usually get scoffed at or the class techie would look down his nose at me and preach. If anything I learned how to be self reliant with regards to trouble shooting, like any good tech person should be..
'mmmmmmmmm.... forbidden donut'
Having just finished my BSc in Computer Science, I've found that those who want real world experience will go out and find it on their own. Formal education is there to assist your learning, not to spoon-feed you.
Alot of the students are at school for the piece of paper, not to learn and enjoy the subject matter. We attempt to filter job applicants based on a "geekiness" scale to help remove those who are not interested in the field.
Beware TPB
Do a search for a Microsoft problem and a Linux problem at groups.google.com and see which is more helpful!
I think you'll notice that Microsoft tech support is rather sub-par!
Im still unsure how people make money in linux. Its free and stuff. Only money lately i'v seen has been in venture capital and stock which really is nothing because that has to be paid back (or at least in stock just being a loan for how long the investor wants to keep it there.)
Use banner ads on your website?
I use MacOS X now and man thats good stuff(tm), Now i can see useing that as a platform to use your linux skills on and potentialy make money.
All honesty im not a beliver in opensource because i belive time *IS* money which means my time should be worth a return in cold hard cash. Yes i do understand most linux developers are doing it on their own free will and all that. But what do they do to feed them selvs? I know several people who develop linux applications (little things nothing ground breaking) but then work in factories. Seems like a waste of valuble skills.
When people graduate from an IT program they are expecting to make money because they have student loans and have spent so much money for their education. All i want to know is where this money comes from and if its stable enough to devote much time to. All i'v seen lately are startup linux companies hanging around for acouple months and then file Chapter 11.
In my eyes, the next generation is going to be a mix-up of those intellectuals who want everything to be open source and free, and those who just want to be able to pay for their software and use it fairly. It's going to be split between the immature script kiddies who think they're the l33test sysadmin in the city, and humble security experts who quietly update and patch their systems, not wanting to throw their weight around and get noticed by the wrong crowd. It all comes down to this. Microsoft, or Linux? Which one are you for?
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
At my campus, IT students were those too weak to hack it as CS/CE/EE majors. They studied how to give a powerpoint presentation, and how to handle a 3 martini lunch. I don't think they are representative of future techies.
grr.... KDE and GNOME are nearly the same. How could they think that? I installed Linux-Mandrake 8.0 with VERY LITTLE PRIOR LINUX KNOWLEDGE, and before that installed Caldera eDesktop 2.4, and before that RedHat 7.1 (tried out a bunch a distros, what can I say?). I find it extremly easy to use. The only thing that bugs me is the installation of non-distro-supplied software. This should be streamlined, so that the program automatically downloads all its dependancies when you tell it to. I don't understand. All these student sound like they've been brainwashed. Next they'll be telling us the virtues of AOL.
(sorry, no hyperlink for Caldera, couldn't remeber if they are still in business or not.)
Everything is mainstream now.
I don't know if Microsoft has the best tech support overall, but almost every development issue I've had questions on, they've been able to help me. M$'s shitty programming isn't synonomous with crappy tech support.
From what I've used of Linux, I've gotten some decent tech support, mainly from the community itself, but much of it has also been met with hostile responses since I am technically a "newbie" and I guess many don't want linux to be a trendy thing...
So to this I say, each person really has their own perceptions of how well these companies handle their tech support issues.
Dave
Well, this IS a fact. There is no number that you can call to help fix your comp, although MS does have a phone number. Best in the business is puhsing it, but there is a help line in place. For Linux help, you need to search the internet. Though you may get excellent support on certain websites, Linux help all depends on your box being 1: bootable, 2: having your modem set up properly, or 3: Having a seperate machine that can access the internet. With a Microsoft product, all you need is a working phone (and an infinite amount of patience).
I'm a repairman in an imperfect world.
I personally feel that IT students are taught the most standard subjects that they can learn. Perhaps Linux lacks this prospect to some of today's teachers. Many older people who actually teach this grew up on Microsoft and the "IBM standard." To them perhaps Linux is a new "fad" that they can safely ignore. This however is simply untrue, but does explain their student's lack of insight.
First of all, this article was written with some extreme bias. With the publisher of the article being a linux magazine and all, they know where their money is coming from, so obviously they're going to write another of the pro-linux/anti-microsoft articles that are so common these days. Just wanted to point that fact out there in case anyone doesn't look at where these stories actually come from. Now about how microsoft's actual tech support, most college students do not deal directly with microsoft's tech support, few people really do. Most people deal with a 3rd party IT firm or an MCSE of some sort. End users are just about the only ones (except the types that I mentioned before and related fields) who actually use microsoft's tech support directly. With a linux tech support line, anyone can call that and get decent help. Linux in IT work is becoming a lot bigger so eventually people will be talking to their IT person instead of the actual company. Things to keep in mind is all
where did yuo actually GET this data...although everyone on /. will OBVIOUSLY say this is wrong (this is clearly flamebait)
/. readers to rebuke mindlessly!
also, i wonder what school(s) were yuo speaking of?
in most high tech schools linux is not only known of , but used!
please stop posting flamebait for
QED
BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
Microsoft support can be good. It all depends...
One of the factors is if you're calling them at random, or you have a support aggrement. You ALWAYS pay for support from microsoft. It doesn't come with any product.
THe last place I worked at, we had a microsoft select agreement. Boy is that a deal. (Hahah). We got 150 incedents for $50,000. Sounds crazy, but, it was worth it... To bad we could never use 150 incedents, even if we tried. (150 people in the company, 5 IT people).
The cool thing about the select agreement, is you get a TAM (Technical account manager) that can esclate your call. Plus, he has like 10 customers, so he pays close attention to every case. Its kinda cool when he checks in to see if you were happy with a case.
With a select agreement, you get access to subscriber downloads, which rocks. You can download anything microsoft ever released (Well almost). Wanted to try BOB? go for it. MSDOS 5 in chinese, its there.
Some of thier best support people are in thier exchange support group. The reason being, exchange is a POS that needs alot of attention, and fixing database curruption is a bitch.
-Tripp
Professional Linux support provided by Redhat et al. is OK, but there is the aspect of having to pay extra for the boxed Redhat distributions that include support. Your average poor CS undergrad isn't going to pay $59 for "free software", and is more likely to either stick with what he knows (Windows) or ask for Linux help in public fora such as IRC or Slashdot (and potentially be verbally abused). This is where the perception of Microsoft's superior technical support comes from.
Loneliness is a power that we possess to give or take away forever
Here's a review of how well MS's tech support really works: http://www.bmug.org/news/articles/MSvsPF.html
"Warning: Too many connections in /N5/html/maindb.php on line 44
/N5/html/maindb.php on line 44
Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in
Unable to select database"
Time to get MS SQL Server or Oracle, you know, a REAL database, instead of mySQL?
A lot of these 'myths' seem to be subjective. For instance, he disagrees with a statement about Microsoft making excellent software. While many people would agree with him, this seems less a case of misinformed kids and more a case of a biased teacher.
How much of this lack of understanding is due to poor curriculum at colleges and universities? When I wanted to study CS, they were offering classes in COBOL, Fortran, and RPG3. I was doing stuff in Pascal and learning C back then. Even then I kew which way the wind was blowing, so I held out and saved my money instead of going to college.
I'd scream like a schoolgirl if I was that age today and saw classes such as GNU C++, Open Architecture Development, Perl, PHP, and Network and Systems Administration courses being offered. And NOT the dime-a-dozen MCSE (Minesweeper Certified Solitaire Expert) night schools, either.
Maybe I'll go get a teaching certificate and save the human race.
Mmmm... Pistol Whip...
Yes, MSDN is better than someone telling you to RTFM when you ask a question. While there are many very nice people in the linux community, there are also a lot of assholes.
Ugh.. sanity is doomed! I worked with a company which sells multi million automatic test equipment (ATE), for years this equipment was Sun based. About 18 months ago I was at an off site office location setting up an off line workstation. A new hire was watching me setup the /etc/printcap file and some dummy
user accounts so users could use this new machine
on the network without YP running.
His comment was... why don't we just use Windows
wouldn't it be easier? I had to hold back my
reply... who hired this guy?
Now I work at a compnay which produces lower end
test equipment. We have a Windows NT box, which
uses MS C++. Although I hate it, once I got over
the handcuffed GUI, it actually works (sort-of),
this of course, means I will never be able to
sell internally a superior Linux based solution.
I was at DeVry about a year ago recruiting for
my old company. It turns out that 99% of their
courses are MS Windows based. They were CONSIDERING offering a UNIX class. This is terrible!
What it means is that there are lots of talented folks who think MS Windows is the
way to go. Kind of like religion.
I've actually found people who like 'vi'
over emacs too!
I believe that primary computer training should
begin with a semester of loading up Star Trek
via paper tape into a 110 baud Teletype, then
playing the game. The highest scoring players
get 'A's. After this, users would realize that
you can load and play an entire game of Star Trek
on a Teletype over a coupler in the time it takes
to boot windows ME.
-- Regards
Ross
Ross Youngblood
One of these days I'll be able to actually read an article that get's /.ed without getting a connection threshold error.
Maybe there needs to be a Cached version of the page posted along with the link.
One of the funnier myths perceived to be true is that 'Microsoft's technical support is the best in the industry and is superior to that offered by the Linux community.' It just goes to show how little real world experience students have.
This is a myth? I'm sorry, but it's only recently that Linux distributors stopped trying to sell us on the bloody stupid idea that one of the great things about support for Linux is that you have all of USENET available to help you out.
Don't get me wrong, that works fine for me, but being able to phone a 1-800 number works way better for others. I LOVE Linux, but let's not get unrealistic about its strengths. It may be the best OS out there, but if we're going to get all smug about what we think is better about it than Windows then we're turning a blind eye to those things that Windows DOES do better than Linux.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
This article raised an interesting point that most computer manufacturers (or VAR) would bundle Windows OS as well. There is really no benefit to opt out and refuse to accept Windows in the bundle.
Since most average new computer user would prefer to buy a brand name computer that has Windows comes with it, even if they are willing to try another OS (Linux), if they get into the slightest problem they will be re-installing Windows and get on with Life. This may also come from the fear that they will somehow void the warranty (I have not seen any stickers that tells you installing another OS will not void warranty but too many times have I seen something about touching or tempering with something that will void my warranty).
This would be a huge resistance in pushing Linux forward as a major desktop OS. Unless enough manufacturers get upset with MS and they start pushing Linux, the chances of Linux getting popular on desktop is still remote.
As somebody that supports a product that runs on both MS and UNIX, I've run into so many techs for whom Microsoft is a religion. They'd rather stretch the limits of running the product on MS, instead of sticking it on a Sun box where it'll crank along, because MS is the only system they know in-house. So the product runs slow... and I look bad. But you can't fault them too much: it's all they know. I blame their CIO for not being more aware of what's going on in the world.
And don't get me started on what a useless certification an MCSE is. It was time wasted for me to get one, and I would maybe pay it passing glance on a candidate's resume if I were hiring someone.
They have the Internet on computers now?
I think that it is ok that we let everyone know that MS has the best customer support. In my experience the companies that get rave reviews on their tech/customer support are the ones who have people using their tech/customer support all the time, because things are always broken. Great customer support generally can be directly translated into "crappy product".
The students felt that "The KDE/GNOME choice confuses most newcomers to Linux."
This is listed by the author as a "clanger", or repeatedly offered mistruth. I wholehartedly agree with him. As an experienced Linux user, I feel that the KDE/GNOME choice does not confuse most newcomers to Linux, it confuses nearly all of them, as well as experienced users. What the students should have said was "the KDE/GNOME choice confuses everybody".
I'm so tired of having to decide which featureset I want to use today. For C++ development I use Kdevelop, because of the nice C++ features like picklists for virtual functions. However I can't stand KDE's tendency to map its' own colors onto my X applications, nor can I take it desktop switching mode, so for casual web browsing I restart in Gnome. This means that I've had to memorize two control panels, two ways of resizing Xterms (I hate both their Xterm replacements), two ways of virtual desktop switching, etc. If there's anything that's important about the desktop metaphor it is that the metaphor must be intuitive. The problem with choice is that it requires you to gain knowledge in order to make an informed decision. To gain knowledge you have to spend time learning. When I pick up a lab instrument I don't want to spend time learning how to use it's desktop; I don't freaking care how it works. I want to use the instrument.
The GNOME/KDE choice is annoying. Honestly I don't care which one goes away, I just wish one of them would.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
The big problem with this is the new stock of future IT professionals in schools is watered down. They are a mass of people who came running during the .dotboom to get the $$. I am sure the same number of people are going into it because they love it as there was before. Problem is the number of newbies who want to do it as a job and make a decent check aren't _into_ it and outnumber the 1337. They don't know how to go onto IRC and ask for help. They don't know what a newsgroup is. They don't know what FAQ stands for and why they have to read that. Etc. etc.
The Linux Journal has a story on IT students... too bad you can't read it because the Linux Journal hired incompetant IT staff.
Of course IT students are going to have a lack of real world experience because they are just starting out just like everyone who reads and maintains this website once was when they were starting out. Give the students a little bit of time and they will be right at the level all of you are at. Plus, alot of students are very pro-microsoft because they've been humping their MOC books for the past year or so. When i was in school linux was barely mentioned and when it was talked about it was put down by our MOC.
This is not too surprising. Like a few of the posters already, it's absolutely true: most younger CS students have a vague notion about linux and expound on how "great" it is like there's no tomorrow; unfortunately, most have difficult saying exactly /what/ the difference is, or why the differences are substantial/interesting. It's like media hype, except from students.
/.'ers realize that (without raising such a big kerfuffle). Even amongst geeks, we are a /unique/ bunch of them.
Many of these students have never intimately touched a unix prompt (e.g. scripting), let alone play around with a linux box. It's an extraordinarily small portion of CS students that actually venture out and play with the various unices, and it's high time that
You need to know where to look.
A few weeks ago the Exchange 2000 server decided it was going to roll over and die and to corrupt the mailbox stores with it. We tried restoring (which took 30 minutes to pull off of tape) but it was a no go. When the system state backups didn't fly, we realized we might need to rebuild the server from scratch...
Instead of wasting 2 hours pulling off a stock Win2K Server image and reconfiguring everything, MS support actually referenced a few obscure cases and we had it resolved in about 25 minutes.
A few months before a power surge sporked out a rackmount running Samba on Linux 2.4.x. Fsck laughed at us and we had a LOT of data to pull off too. It was going to take about 3 hours to restore the data from tapes. So we gave IBM a call while we were restoring. Only took about 20 or so minutes to get an answer and back up and running.
Verdict? I don't see any problem with Linux support as long as you have a contract of sorts. I wouldn't dare leave big messes or small disasters to usenet or forums -- for ANY OS. That's fine for configuration quirks, or trying something new on a test server, but when something needs to be fixed and you've tried everything in the run book, you need someone you can rely on.
And for the record, with the exception of a burp each, both the Linux and Windows 2000 servers are humming along without a problem. I have no real preference -- they each do their job and do it well.
What is the support that Linux gives that Microsoft does n't. They provide a patch,A person can call their support line and ask them anything about their product. Linux however you have to surf through endles mailing lists. When you report a bug the developer(s) often ignore it..instead of providing you with the basic information. Which is the better? hands down microsoft
The Slashdot community really needs shit like that in our forums. I'd love to see you arrested for posting links to that stuff.
MSCE
Microsoft
System
Certified
Engineer
Took me a bit to figure this. I guess this training is primarily on how to set your alarm clock so that you wake up early enough daily to reboot your employerrs NT servers. I understand that NT servers need this daily.
Ross Youngblood
I agree. At my old school (mid-sized public school) senior classmates couldn't use the console version of emacs (no mouse manipulatable menu). I have to admit, I'm not a superior emacs user, but I am quite familiar with my editor of choice (vi, well make that vim)
instead of taking this, and saying "How can we fix it", you shout "Stupid Users!"
I attend the Univ. of RI and I am a CE major. Its nauseaing to see all the incoming freshmen, even sophmores and juniors that have no clue about Unix based OSs in general. The only thing these kids know is AOL, MS and all the other mai-stream, shoved in there faces crap. Thier gonna get a big slap in the face when they graduate and start looking for jobs. I use everything and have no preference. I believe that the big 3, Unix, Linux, and Windows, are good in some areas and founder in others. I don't know about the tech support hting though. I usually just RTFM! :)
x/0=x
I work for a corporation doing production support for large scale internet systems based on M$ technology. I absolutely agree with the statement "Microsoft technical support is superior". Why?
1) Whenever I have a SERIOUS problem with the guts of something run by microsoft. I have actually had them custom write a fix for me for the OS.
2) At the end of the day, I need someone to strangle. Am I going to go tell the CIO of a Fortune 500 company that some hack coder added something to the kernel that screwed us?
3) I know EXACTLY who to call. Who do I call for a Linux issue? Redhat? IBM? Who did I buy it from? Who is supporting it?
Redhat has done wonders for the industry. But I need ONE vendor to contact for ALL my issues who has deep expertise in all aspects of the software. I can't go to Linuxcare or any third party. I want to be on Linux...but I am running these systems on Sun and M$ for just this reason
Microsoft is increasing prices, the IT sector is having a hard time, but coding and improving opensource software hasn't stopped (Gnome 2.0, KDE 3, Open Office, all major distributions have released or are planning to release new distro's, Mozilla becoming better than sex(r), Evolution 1.0, PostgreSQL (and Mysql, kinda) being a condender to all major databases, and not to forget 2.4.* becoming more stable everyday (okay, it doesn't go okay EVERYday...), and the list goes on and on )
And, besides all these really nice goodies, more and more people are trying out Linux and opensource software. It's becoming more and more mainstream everyday. A whole army of teenagers are experimenting with Linux on a day to day basis. Don't worry about the next generation(r), just wait and see. By the time all you 1-st generation hackers are retiered, Open Source software will be used and known by everyone one on a day to day basis. Server, workstation, embedded, mobile or wearable. ;)
Have a bit of faith
greets, :)
the next generation
This sig is intentionally left blank
I like Java because I won't be a part of "Windoze Sux!" or "Unix blowz" people. You know. you have to end this idiotic competition. OS is not, NOT a religion, it is just software. You're going to die when you become old. The OS you used won't give you a place in heaven. Surely I love Java, but I don't go around screaming "Java rox! sucks!". You know what really matters? No, not what OS you use or what language you use. All the time people lived, the most important thing was MONEY. You're good with Linux, the company wil pay you money. Good with windows, you'll get paid too.
So get a good paid job and stop wasting your energy.
You're comparing Microsoft corporate support offerings to random hobbyist support offerings.
Wait, wait, for my next trick, I think I'll compare the support you can get from your 20-year-old son for Windows to a Red Hat corporate support plan.
It would be wiser to compare the support from an actual Linux company, such as Red Hat or IBM, to that of Microsoft.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
How is this a myth? Linux technical support is nonexistant. Unless, of course, this is to imply that Microsoft's technical support is worse than none at all.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I'm just starting to do UK AS Level Computing (don't know what US equivelent is) and I know which OS is the future...
I've been using Linux since I was about 14 and even at that age I recognised its potential. How can IT students not see it? Microsoft propoganda wins again.
I just finished my ugrad degree a year ago, from what I have seen, the university made a lot of effort to stay away from Windows and mantain a Solaris only lab to promote Unix.
Too many times have I heard different professors mention about Unix (or Linux) design being better in certain ways (especially in courses related to OS designs). All of these should promote Unix usage in general.
Afterall, it would be pretty lame to get out of university and not have any exprosure to both Windows and Unix platforms.
Of 150 freshmen I had regular contact with in college, there were 3 (including myself) who were really interested in computers. I bet a similar ratio groks Linux (Maybe it'll say in the story once their poor server recovers from its harsh slashdotting.)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I believe this to be a major contributor to the sense that Linux support is lacking. It's an article from The Register suggesting that Linux support scares away newbies. As a Linux newbie myself, I couldn't agree with the article more. If you know what you're doing, then yes, Linux support is excellent. This isn't the case for a lot of people though. Most HOWTOs assume the reader knows how to do stuff that many don't. I know that's what has kept me from migrating to Linux for my main box. It seems to me that many Linux users are ignorant of this... Just a fresh perspective from a non-typical slashdotter. -Yoweigh
MS bashing can be a bad habit as a sort-of "bandwagon"/"troll" mode people use - even when less than adequately informed. There is criticism warranted, but not every article about MS is an open chance to bash.
.Net mags and white papers galore, but in the end, their solutions are proprietary.
.Net newbie will also find a job! Trust me, they will be slapping up ActiveX charts onto MS-laden pages for businesses for a long time. The internals of development will remain a mystery to them. Is this a bad thing? I'm not sure, can any of you tune up your car engine?
.sig
Linux as desktop OS is a model that can be used to study every aspect of computer science, hands on. This is its origin, after all! MS can publish
This difference comes to knowing the machine versus pressing the buttons. For some development, people don't need to know the guts. Frankly, some of them are best kept away from it. Conversely, systems programmers can sometimes over-utitilize low level toolsets and prematuely reject wrapper tools that get the job done. Specialization has to occur.
So more students come out knowing how to put their baseball card colleciton on the web in 15 minutes with VB. Whoopie! They will immediately sick to the bottom of the skillset pool when compared to a Linux network hacker that runs a web site in the dorm room - once they both get to the job market place AND the task is right.
But the MS
mug
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
capitalist
When I try to hit this story I get this:
/N5/html/maindb.php on line 44
/N5/html/maindb.php on line 44
Warning: Too many connections in
Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in
Unable to select database
I think Linuxjournal needs some tech support right now. Lucky thing Linux tech support is the best in the world.
Jeez, that's the third mysql based site I've seen die today.
... is no one. Not Microsoft, not Sun, not IBM or CA or anybody else. Support for the IT industry from major software vendors is still enourmously lacking in all respects (don't get me started on the hardware folks, who it seems have 1 asshole for every 10 good people and I always get the asshole).
Now, many people will tell you that the reason support sucks is because of the profit "thing". The idea of "1 phone call in and there goes the profit for the shrinkwrap version" is ridiculous given the price of software, but still bandied about by everyone, including Microsoft. The hardware guys of course *can* make this argument since a few calls from granny and her brand new Gateway seriously cuts into the company's already strenuously thin margin.
Having said that, I can't agree with the assertions made by the distinguished submitter of this article (never mind that I don't really care what IT undergrads think). Microsoft's tech support, at the consumer level, sucks. But then so does IBM's and Oracle's and, for that matter, RedHat.
At the more advanced (and expensive) level, Microsoft support changes dramatically and becomes actually very good. Surprisingly good, even. My experience with 2nd and 3rd tier Oracle and IBM (software) support also confirms this. I only have consumer-level experience with RedHat (the first and last box I ever bought from them before I started downloading ISOs myself), and it sucked. Can anybody comment on the quality of high-level support from them or some other "we don't sell but we service" Linux/OSS companies?
I'm sure there are as many "he told me to RTFM" stories from users in both sides of the fence.
I know of one Govt department that hires an MCSE full time to literally wander round the site, rebooting NT boxes... Ive always said, the smart IT grads, are the ones that realise they dont know shit....
This is one more reason people turn to Windows instead of Linux: The uber-geek egotistical superiority complex of the loudest Linux users. And unfortunately, the loudest are the ones who get heard.
Do you even realize what you just wrote? You completely discounted about about 7 years worth of students (assuming "late 90s" includes 1995 forward). Well guess what? I graduated in the "late 90s" and I was in love with UNIX. And it was taught to me by others who would also graduate in the "late 90s". They taught me about all kinds of flavors (FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, HP-UX, and Ultrix to name a few). And yes, even Linux (I popped my cherry on Slackware).
I think we can all agree, each class has those who exceed, those who do just enough to pass, and those who suck. Those who suck are probably too lazy to learn Visual Basic, so screw them. Those who do just enough to pass might not be "Uber-Geeks", but they'll get jobs doing the easier work, and get paid handsomely for it. Good for them. They probably don't want to work in your on-campus lab anyway, since you sound about as friendly and willing to teach as the BOFH.
As for those who exceed... let's just hope they can work their magic without being as jaded and biased as you seem to be.
-FF
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
Earlier this year I terminated a girl who was a year out of a fancy 30k/year East Coast uni with a degree in IT. Someone had hired her based on her brand-name degree without finding out what she knew. Proficient in MS Office with a smattering of VB, she struggled hand-coding HTML and was completely mystified by ColdFusion. She lasted a year as a $50/hour consultant and had accomplished and learned nothing.
Fucking depressing. Now she's working as a waitress. It'll be a while 'till she pays off the $100k in loans she took out to get the degree.
(I had no sympathy. She wasn't hard to replace.)
What the hell isn't running? Possibly a trashed library? What the hell is that?
How about: You have a computer, it didn't do what you want. Possibly there is some problem inside the case. OK, fix it!
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
COuple of times we were working under NT trying to get a web application out the door and called per-incident support. I was told in one case 'we don't support that' and in another 'it'll be fixed in the next service pack', the service pack being months down the road. We had customers hounding us to get the product shipped and MS left us twisting in the wind. I would much rather have to RTFM or hack a code base, because it will be done as a *high* priority project.
That's when I really started to dislike billg.
my $.02
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I get this error when trying to go to the site:
/N5/html/maindb.php on line 44
/N5/html/maindb.php on line 44
Warning: Too many connections in
Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in
Unable to select database
---------
I got that error from another site last week too (it wasn't slashdotted though). Might that indicate a performance problem with MySQL?
Cause we _know_ the OS. Dang, I'm about 9% of the way through a personal Linux kernel code audit, all by myself. Then I'll start on "lilo" and then I think I'll hit "init". Before I'm dead I might get to "ls". I don't even have the time to call any support. And to think, Windows, that Intuitive User Experience, requires tech suppport? Ha!
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I agree completely with this statement:
Information Technology (IT) is for businessy type people, computer science (CS)use Unix and various clones of it.
In addition to this distinction, I must also say that many people that try to get degrees in CS or even IT are doing it for the wrong reasons. Usually they enroll in the curriculum with no concept of the necessary skills of Mathematics or Logic. They think that they can get a degree and will make lots of money as soon as they leave college.
This has lead to weakening of course requirements in colleges everywhere. Colleges want students, so they let them get their degrees without demand enough of them, as long as the tuition gets paid. Generally where I went to college, about 5% of an original freshmen CS group would graduate in that discipline with a functional knowledge. The others would copy/cheat/steal to get the grade. When I took a class in assembly language, that is when I found the true differences. There were 4 in my class that *liked* programming in ASM. I am just glad to know that as soon as these idiots hit the real world, they found out they would have to get off their lazy asses to keep their jobs.
Next they'll be telling us the virtues of AOL
Hey, don't bash AOL! After all, "AOL *IS* the Internet!" They said it on their commercials, so it *must* be true!
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
I'm so tired of having to decide which featureset I want to use today. For development I use Linux, because of the nice features like emacs/vi/gcc/perl. However I can't stand linux's tendency to map its own key accelerators onto my X applications, nor can I take it desktop switching mode, so for casual web browsing I restart in WinXP. This means that I've had to memorize two control panels, two ways of virtual desktop switching, etc. If there's anything that's important about the desktop metaphor it is that the metaphor must be intuitive. The problem with choice is that it requires you to gain knowledge in order to make an informed decision. To gain knowledge you have to spend time learning. When I pick up a lab instrument I don't want to spend time learning how to use it's desktop; I don't freaking care how it works. I want to use the instrument.
The Linux/WinXP choice is annoying. Honestly I don't care which one goes away, I just wish one of them would.
I'd have to say SUN support followed very closely by Digital (a compaq co.). M$ onsite contractors are really good as well, but the MSDN support we get while it does usually find the answer is rife with administrative roadblocks and hoops that M$ makes you jump thru to get support you've already payed for. The absolute WORST support I've had is COMPAQ desktop support, the tech's showing up had no clue about the problem we'd reported, showed up with wrong parts more than half the time. STK has a good service staff as well....
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
at gerogia tech unix/linux skills are taught in the introduction CS classes. windows* is shunned upon as the weak-mans operating system.
I'm a senior at MSU... not IT or TC or even CSE... i'm in the Psychology program and I work tech support for the entire campus. Of those that I work with that are CSE majors I can name only 2 (out of about 60 employees and 25 CSE/IT/TC majors) that know or care to know anything beyond what their classes require (which is how to open telnet, open vi, write code with good intents/comments) and then run g++... When a customer asks them to explain what the DNS server does they draw blanks, when a customer asks how to dialup using minicom on an old Linux distro they pass the call. Hell, some can't even walk a user through email client setup.
What scares me more is the fact that no matter what job i end up in i _will_ be the technical supporter for all the computers. This just reenforces my belief that you should study what you love and love what you study. If you don't have the desire to learn something drop out, fight the "real world" and find something to love and learn more about.
While I don't have any experience with dealing with actual companies when I have technical problems, I have a lot of experience fixing things myself. I've found that if I do a search on the specific error that I get, I'll find several other people with the same errors and quite often there are solutions there too. Granted, you can do this with Microsoft products too, but I've always had much better luck finding solutions for Linux problems.
I can't comment on the article yet because it's been slashdotted.
I'm mostly a Windowz man myself but I reported two faults to them about ISA Server with respect to Group Policy settings and...got one reply, inviting me to pay $200 to log a fault with them...nice...I live in the UK as well :)
Btw, I cant program, my scripting is pretty basic...does that make me unsuited to IT...No!!
But don't complain about having to release the source code to the customer under the GPL. If the customer paid you, they have a right to have someone else work on the code. And if they decide to hand "your" work (which they paid for) back to the world, tough noogies: you got your starting material from someone who gave it to you for essentially nothing (in cash) under the GPL, so giving back to the world is how you compensate the community which gave you that leg-up to your goal. Capisce?
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
I know exactly where they are; exactly why everybody else's tech support blows chunks.
All of the good tech support people work at either Oracle or IBM.
My at my first job out of college, part of our project involved Oracle running on this big IBM beheamoth. By virtue of being the most junior engineer in the group, I got the added assignment of being the guy to call support whenever something went wrong.
My previous experiences with tech support people were with the likes of microsoft:
"It's not out fault. Talk to $applicationVendor or $hardwareVendor"
or
"Maybe we'll get around to fixing it in the next service pack. Get it when we get around to releasing, and install. Until then, fuck off and die"
So it was with a bit of dread that I prepared to call Oracle support that one day, when it actually MATTERED, and I was working on production hardware, rathar than dicking around on my home boxen.
Calling Oracle support would run more along the lines of:
"Good afternoon sir, Oracle support center"
"Ah, yes, hello sir, could you please read us the number from your purchase order?"
"Thank you sir, could you please describe the problem?"
(At this point, I described the problem, to CLUEFUL tech people who did NOT try to get me to go through any FSCK-ing "support call scripts"!)
"Thank you sir, could you please <execute some commands>, and read the results back to us?" (sometimes, it was email the results back to them, but you get the point)
Before long, one of three things would happen:
1)
"Okay sir, this is your problem, and this is how you fix it:" (and fix the problem, it did)
2)
"I'm sorry sir, we can't fix this over the phone, we'll have someone on-site in four hours." (And have someone on site in four hours, they did)
or, as happened twice:
3)
"I'm sorry sir, but that is a problem on the hardware side. If you call Mr. XXX at the IBM support center, and tell him $this, and $this2, and $this3; he'll have you fixed right up"
(And calling IBM's support people resulted in a similarly EXCELLENT tech support experience, with an equally fast response time.)
Now, I have no idea how the support offered by the varoius Linux vendors measures up. Whenever *I* have needed linux help, I've used newsgroups, or any of a number of gurus among my friends.
But since IBM in now a Linux vendor, I know of ONE place where you can get badass Linux tech support. Certianly more support than you'll EVER get from those (un)trained monkeys in redmond.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
I like it when I ask a question (almost any question), and I get "RTFM" in response (sometimes with "luser" appended).
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Also there is the problem of inconsistency. Many times the search for the answer to a problem will lead to finding tons of questions related to it on various forums and lists, but yet the answer is either static (no one knows) or some well intentioned but incorrect advice (often just out of scope, not incorrect) I think the main thing is for there to be a road map for each distro and each application (In also include libs in here). From here it would be easier to see how things have deviated and those would stick out like a sore thumb, both notifying users of the differences and also letting the world know there needs to be some documenting.
As for MS, well the one good thing about them is how easy it is to install most programs. It doesn't require tweaking, but unfortunately that comes with the price that it is less configurable. If only you could get the best of both
---
A look at the themes, myths and clangers reported by the next crop of system administrators.
At the start of this academic year (September 2001), I was asked to teach a new module in my Institute's B.Sc. degree program in Information Technology. This final-year undergraduate module, entitled "Network and Systems Management", covers a wide range of system administration technologies, practices and principles. In effect, students of the module are the system administrators of the future.
As is probably the theme at the majority of third-level educational establishments, student's exposure to OS technology at the Institute of Technology, Carlow is Microsoft-focused and desktop-based. This is easy to understand, for the desktop is very much a Microsoft stronghold, and if an institution can use the same PCs to teach business undergrads Excel and science undergrads programming, then they will. However, what many of my students often fail to recognize is that, as system administrators, they will find themselves managing servers running OS technology other than Microsoft's.
So in an attempt to expose my students to a more realistic view of the technologies in use in the real world, I try to deemphasize Microsoft's technologies in favor of the alternatives. As you can imagine, Linux features quite heavily.
At the start of this academic year, I informally surveyed the 31 students enrolled in the module about their exposure to Linux. Most (if not all) had some exposure to the OS. I probed further and asked how many students had used Linux as the basis of their third-year project (the previous year). One or two hands were raised. Then the first shock came: someone blurted out, "nearly everyone who used Linux last year went on to fail their project". It came out that a number of individuals were missing from the final year due to failing the project element in year three. When I probed for the root cause of the project-failing problem, I got my second shock: "Linux is too hard to install". I was shocked not because these two statements were necessarily false but because these 31 students had pretty much convinced themselves that success was tied to Microsoft and failure to Linux.
While I covered Windows 2000 and Linux as case studies, pointing out the advantages and disadvantages of each OS, I gave the class an assignment that would require them to do some simple research and, as a consequence, allow them to learn a little more about Linux. The task was simple enough. I stated: "Despite considerable success as a server platform, Linux will never threaten Microsoft Windows as a desktop operating system." I asked the students to research the subject area, form an opinion as to whether they agreed or disagreed with the statement, and then present their case in no more than three A4 pages of typed text. As I marked their assignments, a number of themes recurred. Additionally, numerous myths became evident, and--perhaps not unexpectedly--a number of blatant untruths presented themselves. These I classified as clangers. In the remainder of this article, I present the themes, myths and clangers uncovered, in addition to my own personal commentary.
Note: for this purpose, I define a theme as something that is generally agreed to be true. If a comment occurred repeatedly throughout the students submissions, and it was true, it became a theme. A myth is defined as something generally held to be true but is, in fact, not true. Even if a myth occurred repeatedly throughout the submissions (and many did), it can't be a theme as it isn't true. A clanger is a statement that is just blatantly wrong.
Themes
The majority of my students felt that "more desktop applications are required for Linux". No argument here, the more the merrier. And, Microsoft obviously has a distinct advantage in this regard. This theme appeared in many different forms in the student submissions. The most depressing (but still true) form was: "The average user does not care what operating system they are using, just so long as it runs Microsoft Office." And Microsoft knows this. The real crown jewel in the Microsoft arsenal is the Office Suite. The fact that Redmond and Cupertino engineers have already ported (most of) the Office technology to Mac OS X indicates that a port to the X Window System would not be too difficult. But let's face it, porting to Mac OS X on the PowerPC-based Macintosh will never directly threaten the Windows monopoly. Porting to Linux on x86 is an entirely different matter. Were this to occur, the implications would be huge. This theme was further generalized by one student as follows: "The desktop operating system with the most third-party software wins."
The students felt that "The KDE/GNOME choice confuses most newcomers to Linux." This frustration was also expressed as follows: "A commonly-agreed upon GUI environment is needed." Most felt Microsoft has a definite edge here, as Windows 9x/ME/NT/2000 and now XP look essentially the same. There's an argument that the choice of GUI (or desktop environment) is a good thing in the Linux world. However, I'd have to side with my students on this one, as I'd really like to see one single, coherent GUI environment combining the best features of both KDE and GNOME. There is nothing inherently wrong with all Linux desktop GUIs looking the same, is there? And I suspect such an environment would be welcomed by the vast majority of Linux GUI trainers.
The students had plenty to say about the (lack of) reliability in Windows. An eyebrow raising comment said, "for the sake of convenience and familiarity, most users will put up with Windows crashing on a regular basis. In fact, everyone knows it's quite normal for PCs to crash." A more general observation, along the same lines, was, "People like predictability, and they don't like change, so they will put up with Windows' shortcomings." This is a shame but it is true: it has become okay for a PC (running Windows) to crash once a day (or more often). One student referred to this as "normal" behavior. Like it or not, the average user expects their PC to crash and are trained to switch it off then back on again.
Compared to the infamous reliability of Windows, Linux did well: "Linux is technically superior to Windows: it runs longer and consumes fewer resources. Linux also has better security, stability and scalability." No argument on this front from me, either. Unfortunately, the PC world is littered with dead technologies that were technically superior to the alternatives available at the time of their launch. Or perhaps I should have said "dead companies". Of course, it is not a company (like Netscape) that Microsoft is trying to kill with its attacks on Linux, it's a community (which is a little harder to kill). So, Microsoft's past tactics may not (hopefully, will not) work.
A number of students highlighted the market perception of Linux as a problem to be overcome: "How can Linux really threaten Windows on the desktop when the vast majority of PC users haven't even heard of it?". Another slant on this was, "The Windows brandname is too strong to threaten", and "The Linux community are no match for the marketing machine that is Microsoft." This visibility problem isn't helped by the fact that the mainstream computing press have all but stopped covering Linux since the dot-com bubble burst. The Windows brandname is as strong as Coca-Cola, but the Coca-Cola brandname didn't stop Pepsi from having a go (and doing quite well, too). Again, I think the strength of the Linux community has bearing here, despite the fact that a lot of my students thought that "which desktop OS dominates has more to do with marketing than technical expertise". Nearly every student agreed that "Linux needs to shake its image as the techie/programmer's OS", and that "Linux is seen as a geek's OS. Programmers love it and that puts everyone else off." Yes, image (market perception) is everything, and Microsoft knows this. This helps explains the anti-Linux FUD campaign coming out of Redmond these days.
The fact that Linux tends to run well on any old PC came in for praise, typically as follows: "Newer versions of Windows tend to obsolete todays hardware. Linux, on the other hand, runs quite well on older PCs." Yes, the new version of your chosen operating system shouldn't require a major upgrade (or replacement) to the hardware it runs on. If only more people would realize this, and act on it.
More than one student had this warning for Microsoft: "The new XP licensing arrangements may result in many IT shops reassessing their allegiance to Microsoft. Coming on the heels of the recent economic downturn, this may hurt Microsoft to the benefit of Linux." Yes, we should all be screaming this from the tallest buildings we can find: users (i.e., IT managers) need to resist Microsoft's attempts to "lock 'em in" as much as possible!
Myths
A common misconception was "The fact that Linux is open-source is of no real consequence or benefit to the average desktop user." Well, yes, the fact that the average desktop user may never build a kernel from source (or change a line of code) may mean that it is of no consequence to that individual desktop user that the source is freely available. However, it is a huge benefit to the average user to be able to leverage the excellent work that others put into Linux (on their behalf) in order to improve the core source code to the OS, and this benefit should never be underestimated.
Knowing my GUI history, I tried not to let this next comment upset me, "Microsoft has more experience building Desktop OS and GUI technology, so they should be better at it than anyone else. After all, Microsoft invented the GUI." The good folks in Cupertino will probably jump up and down in their seats if they read this, not to mention the XFree86 and BeOS people. And we mustn't forget Xerox PARC, where it all began. The last part of this myth really should be a clanger.
A recurring complaint was that "there are too many different versions of Linux". No, not so. There's only one version of the current Linux kernel. There may be too many distributions of Linux, and I think it is safe to say their differences cause confusion to Linux newcomers. (For example, "Why can't Debian load my Red Hat RPMs, after all, they're both Linux, aren't they?").
Evidence that some of the Microsoft spin-doctoring is working presented itself. Look at this comment: "Linux isn't free. The various distributors charge for their distributions, just like Microsoft charges for its OS." True, if you attempt to acquire Red Hat Linux at your local computer superstore, you won't get it for free. But you can download Red Hat for free over the Internet. Try that with Windows XP (legally, that is).
After shaking my head at that last comment, I came upon this (from more than one student): "Windows is essentially free. After all, it's included with a new PC when you buy it." Well, anyone that buys a PC from a PC manufacturer and asks for a blank hard-drive, as opposed to one with Windows ME preinstalled, would be a fool to pay the same amount for a PC with ME installed, wouldn't they? So, Microsoft certainly gets its share when the manufacturer sells you a PC with a Microsoft OS preinstalled. It may be convenient for desktop users, but it is not free.
Some students think Microsoft has nothing to worry about, because "Linux's success has been at the expense of the proprietary UNIX systems." If this were a true statement, Microsoft really would have nothing to worry about. Thing is, it is not a true statement. Yes, there are some people replacing aging AIX boxes (and the like) with Linux PCs, but to think that's the only use for Linux is somewhat blinkered. And then there's Samba, which--in my view--is a piece of software that Microsoft would dearly love to see go away.
In addition to the usual "Linux is too hard to install" rubbish, this was a common complaint, "The Linux command line is hard to learn and use." No, it simply is not. The Linux user-interface came in for further unwarranted bashing (no pun intended), "Linux GUIs are slow." Well, this really depends on the hardware you're running on, doesn't it? To put Linux on an old PC (which can no longer run the latest Microsoft OS) and then complain when the Linux GUI runs slowly is just not comparing apples with apples, no matter what way you look at it.
Remarkably, many students stated the following as gospel: "Microsoft produce high quality software products." Which helps explain why the Windows OS never crashes, doesn't it? Let's face it, if Microsoft produced cars, and their brakes failed once a day without warning, there would be no Microsoft. Some went as far as to say that "Microsoft are the trendsetters in the desktop OS arena, so they will always come out on top." The truth is Microsoft has made a fortune out of copying and popularizing the ideas of others, but this doesn't make Redmond the trendsetters.
Then came the following contentious statements (from the majority of my students): "Linux offers no customer support, unlike Microsoft, which has a great support system", and "Microsoft's technical support is the best in the industry and is superior to that offered by the Linux community." I asked my 31 students how many had called Microsoft's customer support. Only one had, and he went on to say that Microsoft had put him on hold for "a few hours" before even talking to him. He didn't seem to see the problem with this! Again, it was seen as "normal".
Clangers
There's not much to say by way of commentary here, as these statements speak for themselves.
Clanger #1: "Linux will never threaten Windows on the desktop because it is command line driven and doesn't even have a GUI". What can I say?
Clanger #2: "Linux has poor device-driver support and doesn't even support USB". Not so, officially, as of the 2.4 kernel (regarding USB). And driver support with Linux gets better every single day.
Clanger #3: "Linux lacks good software development tools, unlike Windows which has plenty." It's hard to comment on this without imagining the good folk at the Free Software Foundation blowing their collective tops at the very idea that someone could think (let alone say or print) such a thing. Also, despite the fact that Visual C++ is the "industry leader" when it comes to C++ development on PCs, my experience with final year software engineering undergraduates indicates that Visual C++ is a dog of an environment to work with.
And the final clanger was that many of my students thought Linux was a company!
Now, I'm the first to admit that my informal survey of these 31 students may be flawed (from a statistical sampling point-of-view). However, I'd bet that the views and opinions expressed by my students are typical and representative. My original goal in setting the assignment was realized: my students now have a better understanding and appreciation of what Linux is.
Of course, I was shocked by some of the views of my students. However, on reflection, I'm not surprised that some of the views were voiced. Microsoft can afford to throw a lot of money into its "Linux Myth Campaign". And, as everyone knows, if you throw enough of something, some of it is bound to stick. Education is a, if not the, key defense mechanism.
And, what about my own view? I feel that although Linux may never threaten Windows as a desktop OS, increasingly it is becoming a viable alternative.
Paul Barry lectures at the Institute of Technology, Carlow in Ireland. He is the author of Programming the Network with Perl, to be published by John Wiley and Sons in early 2002. He thanks the 2001/2002 students of CW084-4 for inadvertently providing the raw material for this article.
That the folks who the real developers will be depending on for infrastructure would support a buggy, expensive OS? They'd be making themselves obsolete otherwise.
I'd be curious to see a similar study among actual computer science students.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
being snooty regarding a valid LINUX question from a concerned user they would find them selves looking for a new part time job. I'd love to think it doesn't happen but I am sure it does. While we have, use, and Yes support M$ solutions, I stand behind OSS and Linux and encourage any student to pursue it. I am convinced that if you take the time to learn the linux environment you will LEARN about the system. If you take the time to learn M$ system, you will learn the GUI.
MCSE = Minesweeper Consultant / Solitare Expert
Here at Iowa State University, linux is perceived as the god of all operating systems. More students are fed up with Microsoft and their holes, and even more faculty and staff, as well as departments, are following right along. Unfortunately, ISU signed off on a Microsoft campus agreement making linux on the average desktop a no-go, but most students who work in IT-related fields are installing linux. The Ames Area Free Unix Group for Information Technology (AAFUGIT) is rapidly growing and there is an increase in newby questions.
I think the sample for this census should've been expanded to more Universities/colleges. Perhaps the places where this is really a problem is places like Vatterott and DeVry and what not, where people are trained to do a particular thing and not the science behind it. Anyway with a decent background in computer hardware and software can't deny the power of linux. As I've told many people I've converted, "if you really want to learn networking and what-not, you can't learn by clicking a few buttons (like in Windows) - you have to go to the source...in a matter of speaking."
Does it mean 'fix it for meeeeee! wah!'? If so, Microsoft stomps the hell out of Linux. Their whole _concept_, including for developers (see Visual Basic), is for there to be inner circles and outer circles, in a centralised authority structure. You can have teams of Microsoft insiders working themselves into ulcers for you if you need it- you do NOT get control, ownership of the product, or the final say. Guys like Ballmer expend HUGE effort into making sure the MS insiders ARE still willing to sweat blood to assist J. Random Developer (i.e. hold their hand, wipe their nose, fix their problem). If not for this huge effort ('developers developers developers developers!'), you would be unimaginably screwed dealing with them. The dependency relationship is based on an immense effort on Microsoft's behalf to be the caretaker.
They could stop at any time (Ballmer dies, new CEO is bean counter or something) and it's worth considering just HOW hard Ballmer tries to keep the monolith centered on the needs of certain customers. HE knows that the natural reaction is to screw the customer, get lazy and stop providing good service since you've got them locked down anyhow.
By comparison, if 'technical support' means 'give me the power to do it myself', it's tough to beat Linux, simply because you can get ownership of so much (for all practical coding purposes). For many projects it's easy to get full disclosure of source code. You get to fork off versions if you have a need- you get to incorporate other people's stuff into yours if you follow the licensing rules- there's no 'inner circle' to it at all, and so people get snippy if asked to behave like they are an inner circle. It's 'RTFM' because they know you have just as much capacity to fully acquaint yourself with the situation as they have- and they are not hired to help you, they produce things and you can TAKE them and HAVE them to do with as you will, again with full disclosure. The idea is to take advantage of that.
The interesting comparison here is that this time, if anything drastic happens to Linux, your ownership of your parts of it, and your access to information and your effectiveness, are quite unchanged. It's not a dependency relationship, more like a forced self-sufficiency relationship. You get no support in dependency, but you get resources for self-sufficiency (including legal ones- the licensing) that you flat cannot get from Microsoft.
The question becomes, what sorts of programmers are more relevant and useful to the world? Ones that seek dependency relationships, or ones that seek self-sufficiency relationships? I think there's something to be said for each, but you're a hell of a lot more likely to find cutting edge stuff in the latter camp- which will be pretty unpolished, but that's normal for innovation.
You'll find less innovative software coming out of the dependency camp.
Is the faculty? If so, Microsoft's foray into educational computing (higher education in this case) must be more successful than is commonly perceived. Is it the media? Dont think so, college kids aren't big news watchers (dont follow up with stories about how you and your hallmates watched Dan Rather every night and all the Sunday Morning shows every weekend, I'm painting with a very large brush here). Is it the youthful lack of experience and tendency to buy into hype? Nail on the head. These kids haven't had to deal with a network full of chattering Windoze boxes. But why ask about Linux? Why not ask about UNIXes as a whole? I wonder if "Linux" isn't a turnoff to some. Is Linux perceived more as a lifestyle than a legitimate business operating system? Go ask the rest of these college type sporting tux stickers who couldn't tell you what a swap partition even does much less estimate how big it should be. They may be part of the reason Linux isn't viewed in a favorable light amoung "IT" graduates (see other posts on the light-years differences between CS and "IT" degrees and students).
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Looks like they need to take advantage of the wide Linux support community, eh? ;-)
I wasn't aware they offered degrees in computer services. I am a 3rd year CS student. To be honest, I really don't care about Windows or Linux. I have been a user and developer and both platforms for years. Windows is everywhere, easy to use, and relatively stable with the latest versions. Linux is fast, reliable, rock solid, fun and secure. To say nothing of M$ horrid security. If I end up writing code for windows, unix or just plain old X86 ASM when I graduate, I will be happy. Just as long as im not playing computer B$tch and troubleshooting email and network issues.
The range of ages in many classes is 17 - 40 and includes students from many majors. They are being taught programming strategy and the programming knowledge companies are looking for. If they aren't being taught Linux and other OS's, its because industry doesn't yet demand such knowledge. Give the students a break.
Stop the Slashdot Effect! Don't read the articles!
Huh. A few years ago I had a problem with Windows NT 4 where it was sometimes having trouble exchanging packets with other machines on the local network. Finally broke down and called the Microsoft pay-per-incident line, and after an hour or so of trying things, the guy had me remove and reinstall the TCP/IP stack, which solved the problem. I asked what he thought might have been the issue, and he said " Oh, it does that sometimes. "
Now, in all fairness, they may have gotten better since then, and I've heard good things technically (leaving aside ethically and morally) about their more modern offerings. But I've always thought "Windows: it does that sometimes" made a pretty good slogan.
On behalf of the Employment Development Department of Network Associates, I, Bob Ankist, have notified Microsoft Corp of your recent post on the "Slashdot forums" as being most unusual and of great risk to Microsoft and its current market share of Embeded Software. Your message placed upon the "Slashdot forums" has implied Microsoft and its Commercial Marketing team in a state of panic due to your aggregate Anti-Linux document you placed on microsoft.com; a risk on Microsoft's technical support and service division. We understand your opinion stated in the "Slashdot forums" was placed in essence of free speech and in hopes of marketing to these constitutional peasants, we find it peculiar of your development position at Microsoft and you to participate in such a way without Microsoft Corp's and Network Associate Inc's consent. Therefore it is my duty to assist Microsoft in reviewing your state of employment at Microsoft Corp because you have violated our don't-ask-don't-tell-customer policy of Linux' having any such status and market share in the Embeded Software market and of you implying a most unwarranted concern by stating Linux is "...crap." You have been notified and we urge you to reconsider your current stance of Linux not being a threat and ascertain that Linux must be discouraged in the market using the most sincere and most unchallenging methods. My heart goes out to you in light of your actions and I pray to the God of Healthiness that you seek and find a cure for your disease.
Sincerely,
Bob Ankist
The PAID MS support I've had is every bit as good as the PAID Linux support I've had - knowledgable people getting paid a wage to support customers in both cases. Free support is ALWAYS unreliable from EITHER camps - as one would expect. College students are NOT likely to have had experience with paid MS support professionals - much more likely their PC/ISP supplier has been their main source of support. Since MS is the main USER platform the view that MS support is better is unsurprising. Be nice to read the article to form a better opinion on it.....so Ill shut up.
Catch a clue. Suits don't want to see you on newsgroups or IRC waiting for someone that MIGHT know whats going on with your issue. Lateley the issues that i've run into with the *nix's have NOT been fixed through newsgroups/IRC/net places. I can say that everytime i've been forced to call MS, i've gotten a definate answer, at any time of day and or night.
And don't try throwing "Redhat offers support!!!" around either. They're cluebies. When i'm pointing shit out to THEIR developers, I don't feel like i'm getting my monies worth.
Face it, for anything more than "this module won't compile right under apache." Linux support lacks greatly.
Documentation projects cannot replace real life call centers, it just cannot be done. And the current scene for "linux support" sucks.
begin the flames i guess for having a NON-LINUX friendly opinoin.
My university (one of the top in the US, supposedly) just started teaching the intro CS class (for non-coders) using C#. Why? God only knows. They used to teach it in Java- they switched from Pascal very early on, which was probably a bad choice. But now Java is superbly well-documented, and becoming an industry standard. C# may become an industry standard, but only because MS is behind it. So now that course is essentially Windows-only. (The standard data structures and systems programming courses are, of course, still done on Unix- by now, of course, in the form of RedHat 7)
There are quite a few people who push Linux as the best and only solution. These people are dorks. However, most of us react more strongly to MS products being pushed as the best and only solutions because:
- MS software pricing is an obscenity.
- Linux companies haven't used illegal coercion to make their products the market leaders.
- Until recently, people did not choose Linux-based solutions simply because they had the word "Linux" in them.
- the possibility of single-vendor lock-in is virtually nonexistent for Linux.
I work part-time in tech support here, and I cannot tell you how annoying it is to have to deal with all the Microsoft fanboys who think Windows is the final point in computing evolution. These are techincally astute students, among the brightest in the world, and incapable of dealing with anything that doesn't have the Start menu and Explorer. For my part, I'm glad I'm studying computational biology, where MS products are by and large recognized as utter garbage. If Windows ever becomes the platform of choice for serious scientific computing, I'm going to law school instead.
IT is probably the only industry where people who didn't go to school for it know more than the people who did. IT undergrads generally know next to nothing about real computing... They might have had a class in Visual Basic, but they forgot everything a semester later... What they really learned was how to force all of us self taught people to fill out a million useless forms.
with any computer. The computer science "gurus" are basically just programmers with some basic troubleshooting or sysadmin skills. If you were truly being taught computer science then it wouldn't matter if you were handed vi, Microsoft Word, or Wordstar, you'd still be able to program. It wouldn't matter if you were on unix, windows, or a mac, you'd still be able to program. You might have to do some research first, but you'd probably know how to accumulate the information you needed.
Let's be honest most CS classes are akin to a wood working vocational class. They teach "real world" skills at the expense of things like "planning", "how to fix mistakes", and "what to do when it doesn't work the way you think it should."
I shouldn't have to give you a basic computer class so that you can find the spot in your code where I've noticed your mistake.
I'm done ranting.
Only people who have never dealt with microsoft support would ever call it "the best in the industry".
;) their support is also excellent.
I've had experience with several vendors support, and here's how I would rate them:
1) HP - outstanding, even their most obscure legacy hardware and software has well documented support databases miles deep, and knowledgeable people are always available. No matter how arcane the problem was, I always got an answer, and it was always the correct one.
2) IBM - if you can stomach AIX
3) Sun - reasonably knowledgeable, even though they are incredibly arrogant at times.
...
995,109) Microsoft - utterly worthless. If you can't find the answer on their search engine, it's virtually guaranteed their support won't be able to help you either. Forget MSDN for developer support. The only thing it's good for is getting regular M$ software distributions. The developer tech support it gets you is utterly worthless. Case in point -- in NT3.1 days I wrote an win32 OCX which easily repeatably bluescreened the whole OS. Something which M$ said couldn't happen. M$ able to reproduce the crash on their end, but were unable to find a solution. In the end they dropped the issue without any resolution and refused to pursue the bug any further. For all I know, my win32 OCX probably still bluescreens NT. So much for MSDN developer support. You are better off with usenet newsgroups and web message boards, than microsoft's so-called developer support. Hell, you are better off getting calling miss cleo's psychic hotline -- you're more likely to get a usable answer from them than you will from M$.
I think its more down to the motivation of todays students. In the old days people were forced to use command lines and if you came across a problem you used any reference material you could find to get the problem solved. Now days most windows faults can be solved by just a few clicks of a mouse and if that doesn't work, in goes the remaster cd. If they can do the job without having to learn very much then why bother learning dos. Its not very suprising that most students don't use linux....they is indeed a GUI but to get it working perfectly you need to start tinkering under the bonet.
;-)
IMHO
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
I am currently a senior undergrad studying computer science. At my school, CS majors have their own computer lab, which consists of lots of windows 98 machines that use exceed to run an xwindows session off of the main cs server(sgi origin). This is a problem and I have been trying to get the lab manager to put linux on tsome of he machines, but I keep getting some lame excuse about not being able to ghost the computers if they have linux on them. However, as far as us learning unix, all of our programming classes beyond the intro class require us to use unix. Moreover, there is a required semester long unix course that we have to take the beginning of our sophomore year. I can't imagine this structure being much different at any other schools.
Regardless of all that, I do not see any problem here, and to be quite honest, I beleive this discussion is rather silly. There will always exist true unix geeks no matter platform they are taught on in college. Furthermore, a student who is capable of studying assembler language and designing integrated circuits while an undergraduate should have no problem learning whatever operating system he/she needs to once they are in the industry.
The accounting department was creating some huge Excel spreadsheets, on the order of 50M files with pivot tables, cross references, innumerable worksheet links, etc.. It would crash about half the time when working with it. After spending some time chatting with a friendly rep (who mentioned that he was buying a ranch in the Caribbean when he retired), we sent a sanitized version of the file to them and had it fixed within a couple hours. It was due to a coding problem in the spreadsheet itself. This was not an Excel bug, but one the company had created. We did go through the upgrade and reinstall routine first, but that was OK, considering that it was needed anyway. They pointed out the coding errors, offered suggestions, and fixed the code.
The other problem didn't have such a rosy outcome. Every two weeks our Oracle/NT4 server would crash. After speaking to Oracle and MS for about a month, both of them pointing fingers at the other, the "solution" provided was that the server must be rebooted every two weeks to prevent the problem. So we tried using the other supported configuration, namely a SQL Server backend. That was a mistake. Resource needs ballooned and response time was doubled. From numerous chats with their tech support, it appears that the only supported configuration was the state just right after the install. They were not responsible if other applications were loaded. Imagine that! I suppose that's why they've decided to bundle everything -- too many people were pissed off that third-party applications were not supported. I.e., the OS could not be held responsible if anything else but it was installed.
Of course, we had an enterprise support contract so had dedicate MS resources. Forget trying to get the same treatment with your home Windows machine. I've tried. I have a Toshiba laptop and was bounced back and forth between their support desks when the modem wouldn't work. Each desk blamed the other. The funny thing is, even though this is a Lucent WinModem (i.e., needs special drivers to work), I was able to get it running under Linux before Windows.
As for Linux, support is usually pretty good. I frequent the comp.os.linux.misc groups and see that most questions are quickly answered, including the daily "how do I telnet as root" stuff that's answered in every FAQ. There are even answers for the bizarre usages of Linux in bizarre situations. The *main* problem is that sometimes legitimate questions are not answered because no one knows how to answer them. With *paid* enterprise support (i.e., redhat, caldera) even the questions that don't interest the tech/help desk staff will ultimately get answered as the ticket gets elevated. There's no such mechanism on the newsgroups though.
My conclusions? Linux and Microsoft home/desktop users can expect about the same level of response, except that Linux support is free. For the enterprise customer, Microsoft can be great or can be poor, but you pay a lot of money regardless. My one RedHat problem (a Compaq Prosignia related issue with RAID) was answered pretty quickly.
How very interesting. It really shows the /. crowd's bias when things like this come up. That's ok, while the rest of you are our button-mashing sysadmin monkeys, we (the computer scientists) are actually providing the tools for everyone's future.
It's hilarious how much the OSS crowd will lambast CS-educated programmers, but fail to recognize that Linus T carries a B.S. in CS. And as for all the people who ruffle their feathers in 'the real world': The most useless coworkers I've ever had were college dropouts who had the arrogance to believe they knew better than their PhD'ed professors. The most useful coworkers I've ever had were CS grads. It's not a coincidence either, and in the future I will refuse to deal with primadonna assholes who think that just because they read a few manuals they think they know how shit -actually- works.
I know many CS & IS students who LOVE linux. They don't know why the love it.. ask them and they say its free. Thats the only reason you get.
I on the other hand HATE linux... so just becasuse im not going to kiss and suck Linus ass makes me... well it means i have the ability to think and reason. It means I am able to take a look and see what exist whats around etc. Just because the story talks about IT undergrads who are not exactly on the Linux bandwagon dosn't isn't a sad day/story. It means the late gen x'ers don't buy the bull* that we are spoon feed.
From the slashdot story i get the feeling it is wrong to have an personal feelings about linux that is bad (well on slashdot that is bad granted)... but after awhile it starts to sound like third grades telling on each other for taking cuts in the water line. Let people have personal feels and don't run around like a chicken with its head chooped off stressing that the world will end. A little change is awlays good. (I hate MS too)
Each OS has a purpose... when people realize that and are able to deal with it then the world will be a better place. Now grow up people.
(mod down 1 point for not liking linux, mod up 1 point for not liking MS, mod down a point for having a personal feeling... net result -1)
I love that he put as a theme and not a myth that Microsoft OS needs to be rebooted at least once a day. I can tell you of a few hundred WIndows 2000 machines that get rebooted once a month at most. While most of these are at work we do give each user admin rights to their own machine (don't ask - it has to do with a software product that I would rather not discuss) and theoretically they could install whatever they want.
At home, I know my girlfriend has restarted her computer once in the last month and that was because I installed a new burner. Last time I checked, even Linux requires you to shut down before working inside the case (hot-swappable excluded).
Now I may come across as Pro-Microsoft in this rant (and in others on slashdot) but my point is actually quite different. I do use Linux. The email address you see above is thanks to a qmail server running on Slackware. If you are going to rant against Microsoft than take something like security. By ranting on something that is outright wrong only makes you look like a fool and a professor stating it is a black eye for the open-source community.
"It take 9 months to bear a child, no matter how many women you assign to the job."
I attend Shippensburg Univeristy, part of Pennsylvania's state system of higher education. At Ship, there are many of us that are quite active with Linux and other open source software. Our computer science department even funds a student run linux server. And this is not a small machine, the new one ordered this year, was a $6,000 machine. On the other side of the coin, our rivals at Indianna University of Pennsylvania, another state school, has in recent years prided themsleves on being a "Microsoft School" were they teach students the MS way of life.
So, when you get down to it, I'm not sure anything is different than the way we find the indeustry now. There are a lot of youg people into linux and a lot of them not. Likewise, there are a lot of older people into linux and not. The war has not and will not be won or lost in a single generation of CS grads. Like everything else, both sides are represented and the fight will go on.
This looks to be unfair. I would expect for far greater tech support from microsoft. If I pay $100+ for the software and then pay for tech support it better be dam good. As for linux. I love linux and when I have had a question someone has helped me out. Sometimes it took some time but Someone did help.
Also, From my little experiance with linux cummunity support is not ment for the newbie but for somone who has taken the time to lean and love linux. IF your a newbe read LDP, linux.com, linuxnewbie.org. then ask for help. If your not willing to do this stick with windows or buy a distro and call their techsupport(I hear redhat has great support)
the way I see it their are two choices with any OS to learn or pay for tech support.
As much as the Linux zealots dont want to admit it, there are some very serious usablity, support and attitude changes that need to be made before Linux goes anywhere.
1) Support
Still not good enough. The fact is I can still solve problems faster using MS resources that with Linux ones. MS resources are also dumbed down a degree, with a fair bit of hand holding. This is opposed to Linux where you need to be technically proficent.still overall. Not good enough. Support and documentaion does need to be clearer because the point is, MOST of the users will take one look and scrap Linux.
2) Attitude.
Drop the 1337 crap. Half the Linux zealots know fuck all about computers. STFU becuase your an embarrassment. And the true elites, maybe a dose of reality might help bring yourself down to a level where your approachable to the newbies. The fact is somethign like XP is much easier to use than Linux. It's your attitudes that drive newbies away "RTFM!!" PAH! Hand hold the newbies once and they wont fucking EVER go back to MS.
3) Usability.
Here is an example. Ask a newish computer user to add a network printer then connect to it. Firstly in Windows, then in Linux. Now see the confused looks first, then with a touch of do this, they can. Then ask them to do it again without help. Windows, they will guess their way. Linux will be NO FUCKING WAY. Simple shit like that is not dumb enough to do in Linux yet!
Unless I have those three issues solved, Linux aint going anywhere. Wake up and see it for yourself.
Microsoft's support is good because they have the money to do it. Where as Redhat and other Linux companies don't have the money to have a comparable support System.
The author somehow assumes that windows users don't use IRC, usenet, nor do they read books. There is no way that the linux community can claim that Linux is superior in the support department. "Support" is rarely ever what it's cracked up to be anyway, especially since a clued-in end user is far preferable. But you Linux zealots out there need to unplug occassionally and find better uses for your time than worrying about this rubbish.
I dont want to start a big pissing match over this, but in general people who get Information Systems degrees are exposed to Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Development tools (ie VB), while people who get a Computer Science degree are exposed more to Unix and almost not at all to Windows.
Maybe if they had serveyed Computer Science graduates instead of Information Systems graduates the answer would have been different.
I Heart Sorting Networks
1) Any skills you learn in college is 80% obsolete when you graduate.
2) You better be prepared to learn for the rest of your career. Technology changes too often. I know people who got into the career just to say they are in IT. Trust me, those people should be at your local Best Buy trying to sell you stuff today.
I'm not a programmer (yes, I learned VB). My networking classes held my attention the most, so guess what I'm doing today? And with my experiences with MS's support, they shouldn't be ragged on. Of course, I am talking about corporate accounts
Linux this and that, but you can never face the true commercial realities which present itself. Now that there is not a growing following of Linux users you have to bad mouth the IT Grads. Well let's face it, if the IT grads don't like Linux then Linux will always remain the minority, its a simple as that. So stop whinging and either make it more appealing or better or just whimper away like the sorry GNU sods you are.
I bet none of you were born Linux gurus, were you?
I, for one, learned the skills in school that have given me the ability to solve problems in the real world...without having to be specifically trained for each and every situation.
I wasn't born knowing how to install and run software....but when the time came to know how how to do it I learned.
The article is already /.ed so I couldn't read it.
I have seen a lot of bashing taking place in the forums, and I take exception to it as an undergrad CS student. My school offers no courses in VB, and I have actually never used it (I have seen the code though, and understand why it maybe appropriate for prototyping - I still wouldnt use it though).
Likewise, my school generally uses VA products, although we generally can submit code that was developed on any platform (with some restrictions obviously).
In short, I don't know how "IT Students" was generalized, but it clearly doewn't apply across the board.
Take this with a grain of salt as it is coming from a senior "IT" undergrad. Ok actually a CS undergrad.
My experience has been that Linux is highly respected in acadamia. My acquaintences at UIC, MIT, and Marquette all seem to have similar feelings.
Our program (at Concordia University) strongly emphasizes the general theory and foundations of Computer Science, and Linux/Unix are OSs that lend themselves to that task. The problem is HR departments see things like MCSE as a golden egg. They ask questions like, "Do you know Visual Basic 5.0?" or "What certifications do you have." Which baffles me as learning new languages is not a hard task after the first few.
So who's to blame, not acadamia, but business demanding the lowest common denominator from colleges. --Enough of my long rant.
I was really disappointed with this article. I was hoping that the author would explain some ways that Linux could fight the "only-for-geeks" perception. Perhaps he would even have a suggestion for how we could introduce Linux more easily to junior system administrators!
But no, he lists the (common, cliched) reasons that Linux isn't fit for the desktop, and then goes on to deny them, point by point. He then throws in a little Microsoft-bashing, which makes the article seem less like a helpful "Where do we go from here?" and more like a "Linux rocks; I don't understand why everyone isn't using it" rant.
Case in point: He cites the "infamous reliability" of Windows, then says: "it has become okay for a PC (running Windows) to crash once a day (or more often)." Since when? And since when does a non-9x OS from Microsoft crash more than once a day? I run Windows 2000, and it doesn't crash. If it crashes, it's a hardware problem. Applications crash, sure. But no one has yet solved the application crash problem. Windows NT and XP have about the same reliability. Uptimes of 5-100 days (which I have seen with Windows 2000) are perfectly fine for workstations, most of which get turned off at the end of the day, regardless. As much as I hate some of the features in Windows XP, I am still encouraging people to upgrade to it if they use a 9x-based OS. Folks, no computer should crash more than once a week, and you don't have to run around saying "Use Linux" if you want that type of reliability.
The author then goes on to quote students who say "Linux is seen as a geek's OS. Programmers love it and that puts everyone else off." But instead of explaining how Linux can be more friendly to non-technical users, he cites the "anti-Linux FUD campaign coming out of Redmond". Microsoft or no Microsoft, Linux vendors and programmers are just now realizing that ease-of-use matters, even to technical professionals. Instead of addressing this need in his article, he points fingers at Microsoft, which isn't productive.
One final comment which really irked me was his response to the following complaint: "The Linux command line is hard to learn and use." He responds with "No, it simply is not." How does this comment address the real issue? If your students feel that the command line is hard to use, give them a training manual. Better yet, sit down with them and explain that the command line may have a steeper learning curve, but show them how much more powerful it is!
Let's be honest: there is a lot of FUD in the computer world, made worse by those who think they know what they are talking about. "Windoze crashes constantly. Linux is too hard to use." Instead of regurgitating the same old excuses, let's figure out how to work with these problems. Fight FUD with education, not with more mindless flaming of the supposed "enemy". If your friend says that the command line is too hard to use, don't blow him or her off and say "No it isn't! See, all you have to do is pipe it to wc -g." Instead, sit down, start from the beginning, and explain the benefits of your method of working!
That is what the author should have done with his students.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
The Windows brandname is as strong as Coca-Cola, but the Coca-Cola brandname didn't stop Pepsi from having a go (and doing quite well, too).
Erm. I think you're thinking of RC Cola, which isn't doing quite so hot. Pepsi is more like the MacOS of the soda world.
LOL!!! This is the SAME exact reason why I laugh at those who say we need to listen to the politics of students and campus groups. They are almost always radical, left leaning nuts... the kind that burn dumpsters durring WTO and hand out flyers talking about the evils of meat. If we are to believe that students are somehow enlighted about society and politcs then they must also be right when it comes to Microsoft being better.
I'm a norwegian IT undergraduate (doing msc now though) and allthough there where a lot of windows zealots in collage NONE of them would have made any of the clangers comments. I mean come on, how can you say linux lacks development tools or that it doesn't even have a GUI?
In norway we had several courses given in a UNIX (linux) environment. Classes about operating systems used linux and BSD code as examples. We actually used a lot of time to explore the various commonOS's (not mac though, sadly).
Souns to me like the american IT education as a few BIG holes in it and that the children beeing interviewed in this article should be set back to point zero.
i am a sophmore IT major and a linux user for only 6 months. i havent even looked back at windows. there is not too much i can do on windows i cant with linux. although the trends barry writes about are true for many of my classmates. they are willing to except the fact that their computers reboot for no reason. they look at linux as something too hard and too confusing. yes its a fact, M$ is a big bad company, but students should be learning about linux if they expect to work on servers at any time. is M$ going to be out of business in 5 years? not likely? but will linux still be used by tens of thousands? how many upgrades of windows of 5 years? in linux? and i do think that linux actually has a better support than M$. if i ever have a problem, it usually takes me about 10 minutes of searching until i find a solution. bottom line IT majors should be exposed to linux.
Both MS software and OS/GNU/Free software has the option of pay support. The support you get from the higher-end MS support contracts is very good, but so is the pay support you can get from companies like Red-Hat.
Selling support/services and selling software licenses are two seperate activities. The business that work in the OSS community are banking that services can be profitable without needing to sell licenses.
I have been working as an IT-geek for some time now and I have never made a dime off selling a license for anything, but I make a good living selling my services.
That is so true.
_One_ of the things you learn by taking a CS degree, is that you don't really know anything.
These are not the system administrators or NASA programmers of tomorrow. They're getting a 2-year tech degree and then they'll be on the news bitching about how there are no good jobs in IT.
I realize this is an open scource site, but Jesus Christ, could you at least try to have a little bit of credibility, There is a big difference between RTFM and paid support. Go squeeze your pimples you little cretins.
I see a lot of posts here claiming new students only know about AOL, MSN, Office XP, etc. Can you blame them? When Mom and Dad by them their new Dell Optiplex GX150 with a TFT display, does it come with Linux on it? Of course not.
.doc files). If other colleges start creating policies like this, that might just cut down on the Microsoft-centric atmosphere.
When I first came to MIT, I knew about Windows and MS Office. That was it. Was I criticized for running Windows? Was I sneered at by zekr1t n1Nj@ Haxxor dudez who were running Linux or NetBSD? No. Instead, someone suggested (nicely; not by saying "Try running a _real_ OS") that I give Linux a try - If I didn't like it, I didn't have to boot into it, and I would only have lost 300MB of hard drive space (those were the days). I was given a RedHat 4.0 network boot disk and the IP address of an NFS server, and I installed Linux. My friends were willing to help me learn things, and give me pointers. There is a community mailing list that people who use Linux can subscribe to and get their questions answered by other members of the community who've been using Linux for much longer. The people on this list didn't get annoyed or flame if you asked dumb questions, nor did they gve you snide "MS sux" remarks if you inquired how to mount a Windows partition in Linux. Because of that environment, I am now a competent Linux user, administrator, and halfway decent developer. You can't expect students to rise to that level if you only offer criticism.
And can you blame students for using MS Office formats to exchange files? The media rarely mentions Linux without saying "hackers" and "computer crime" in the same sentence. Ignorant website developers and system adminsitrators think Microsoft Office is the only answer. I've even encountered people here at MIT who refuse to accept PDF documents, saying that they don't want to deal with the extra effort required to open them. (Who hasn't heard of Acrobat Reader?) In order for this bias to change, colleges need to foster an environment in which Microsoft Office is not the only format for exhanging documents. The campus computing environment here runs on a variety of platforms, including Solaris, IRIX, and Linux, so by default all course-related documents have to be in a format accessible from all platforms. This is accepted for the most part, and materials appear in HTML, PDF, and PostScript (though StarOffice has given some people an excuse to distribute
Education is a key point in this topic, and colleges are a good place to start. I would venture to say that the majority of college students who only use Windows do so not because of choice, but because they are unaware of the alternatives, or because the alternatives seem daunting and unnecessary. These perceptions have to change before more college students will start using Linux.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
I think that may change in time as teachers are faced with paying licence charges to keep current or moving to open source. On the other hand, MS probably values the education sector enough to continue to cut a lot of slack.
Given the sort of Campus Agreements MS is willing to give, I find that unlikely. Sure, it costs the college I work for slightly less than my salary to handle all of the licensing for MS products. But it would take more than one entry-level employee to convert the entire campus to another platform.
My boss is continually reminding us that Lotus used to have really severe licensing like this, and look what happened to them. Sort of a Moses vibe to those rants, really.
--saint
I done read about 4 linear feet of books, took about 3 months' worth of classes, and as of Thursday, I'll have my MCSE. Does that make me the be-all, end-all, uber-hacker? No. But it qualifies me to design and implement Windows 2000 in a corporate environment, lock it down, and make sure it's available 24/7. And it qualifies me to detect your linux box screwing around on my firewall and alert your ISP. I'm not stupid, and your stipulation that MCSE candidates are stupid, not to mention the fact that you're too afraid to back it up with your nick, upsets me more than you know. I love Slashdot, but if I see more tripe like this modded up, I'm going to have to love something else. Like *shudder* activewin.com. Don't make me do it!
Synergy is your friend
This just goes to show how idiotic and bigoted some of the /. editors can be.... And shows the glaring bias "anything but Microsoft" that some people have. Grow the fuck up, timothy. Maybe one day when you learn to become a real administrator, you'll learn that each OS has its own strengths and learn to build networks on those. Tim: have you even called MS Tech, or are you just tooting the same tired old ant-MS line again? Does it ever get old, tim?
I've had to call MS support 3 times this year. And each time, I've had my answer resolved. Twice my money was refunded to me. MS Tech Support even followed up each time to make sure that the issue was actually resolved so they could close the incident ticket out. The techs were friendly, knowledgeable and more importantly, they got the job done in an efficient manner.
I've had to call RedHat's support line once. Thank the Gods it was only once. The support guy couldn't even answer a basic X-Win problem, and I never did get a promised followup call that would hold the answer I was seeking. I'm also thankful that I didn't have to pay for that call...
The only thing that even comes close to Microsoft is Cisco's support service, and only then if you buy into one of their support contracts.
gay porn link
But are you aware that some guys here are insisting linux's support is better?
Why would anyone go to school for IT? To learn about the OS's and technologies of today, that will be obsolete in five years? I don't get it. Study EE or CS or a hard science like Chem/Physics. That will give you a disciplined and flexible mind. OS's and platforms are better learned on your own initiative, not least because they will continue to change throughout your life, and you must consequently continue to learn.
I guess I find it unsurprising that people going to school for IT would worship Microsoft.
while 90% of the students arguments where false it is important to note that they:
1 - Don't have any exposure to non-MS technology
2 - Beleive everything they read in MS PR
3 - Beleive that crashes and unreliability is a fact of life and unavoidable.
4 - Are unaware of goings on in the rest of the computer world.
And these are the people who are supposed to be our future computer experts and are more knowledgable than the common joes. God help us all.
'Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson...'
Hi, In my Institute, students and faculty in the Computer Science and Automation dept. exclusively use GNU/Linux based systems. Non-technical staff use M$ based systems. One of my friends project was based on GNU/Linux! When I asked some student in that dept. why they use GNU/Linux, they laughed and said "Window$ crashed every now and then and GNU/Linux is very stable and hardly requires reboot"(direct speech). More over, most of the web/mail servers are running on GNU/Linux. I used to use M$ Window$ until I got hooked up to Linux three years back. I used M$ simply because most of the scientific programs required for my research in crystallography were running under Windose(More software for GNU/Linux is coming up now, good sign!). Now, I am extermely happy that I am working on the GNU/Linux platform. I thank all the developers around the world who contributed to such a wonderful OS! -mdpras
Most of Microsoft's support is outsourced to companies like "Stream". You have to get past the initial levels of support to get to anyone who actually works for Microsoft.
Stream has a VERY bad reputation. Unless the customer demands it, they hire and train just about anyone. They are kept to very strict call times, which insures the customer has to call back if the solution did not work.
Most of the times I have dealt with Microsoft support, the standard "solution" is to reinstall the OS. (So much for all your system settings and preferences! If you use Kai texture explorer, you lose all your saved textures as well.)
I ask anyone who thinks that Microsoft has good support just how many times they had to call them and why.
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
i just took an entry level computer class at the local university that i attend full-time. we covered ms office, basic html, and basic computer concepts and components. what really got my attention was how the text book really did not do linux or unix any justice. not only was the information in the book wrong, it was outdated. btw the book was a 2001 edition, and it had everything MS up to date. one of the questions on a test was: "what is the major weakness of linux?" the correct answer was "linux does not have a gui". we really cant blame college it students for being so ignorant when the text books dont know truth about linux. after all, its the information in the books that matters when it comes down to passing the class.
Use StarOffice to print to a PostScript file. Most Linux programs can print to PS (on Windows, you can install a PS printer driver). Then run ps2pdf on the file (it's included with Ghostscript), or use ps2pdf.com. Take the PDF file to Kinkos. They shouldn't have any trouble printing it.
What? I thought it stood for My Crappy Software Expertise?
I got that one too... when I set the number of the connections allowed in MySQL to 10 and then tried to connect 11 clients.
Those numbers are unforgiving bitches, I swear on it.
Well I just couldn't resist. Feed the flame boyz.
I don't know where they get their data from but alot of the comments I see are way off base too. Microsoft does suck in my opinion but it does fill a void, one that Linux can't fill yet I regret to say (can your mom get her burner working under linux?) I'm an undergrad at Northern Michigan University and all of our serious CS classes are done under linux. Yea, the boxes in the labs dual boot but I have yet to have a single class use the windows side for anything. As far as all of us being inept and only worried about making the almighty dollar that is just weak. It seems to be a point of view older people like to take on younger people (oh they dont know, its not like the old days), I've seen it in the Marine Corps, in the workplace, and now I'm hearing it about my chosen career path and education; and no I'm not that young. Lighten up and take people at who they are and don't generalize, you might just run into someone with talent.
im so pissed by that story i dont know where to start. this is my first post to ./ ive been lurking about for a year. i usually get P.O'd be reading the stuff here on the rare occasion i get some usefull info. but i like slashdot. but this shit takes the cake. since when is linux hard to install? ive done about 30 installs no problems windows is another story take the last 10 or so i did the network programs like the ping tracert and a load of other stuff didnt install the first time and dont get me started on XP. i dont own a copy but my brother does nothing but problems. i havent used windows in a long time and have recently destroyed all my windows software i feel very liberated. ive been using Linux for about 5 years dual booting for a while the totally dumping it. and if you get confused by the different distros.... i cant comprehend how stupid you would have to be. and the kde vs gnome argument i have a feeling thats going to be like vi vs emacs competitions good. pick what feels good to you. kde 1x made me physically sick to use now its pretty good. im going to cut this short and close with that idiot statement about linux and the lack of development software anyone in software development that really belives that has to have been living under a rock for the past several years. when i first discovered linux i creamed my jeans when i saw what all it has in the way of dev tools... aw fuck it i need a beer
Hi! I'm a CS student at a college in Brussels(Belgium). Every student here knows about *nix and has experience with it: it's one of the prerequisites for a few courses.
...
If students aren't interested in computer science and all aspects concerning it, it is probably the fault of the college where they are studying. It's very important to get a lot of hands-on experience that can be translated to the "real world" and I must admit that at a lot of places, this is left out in the courses.
But saying that anybody who can code and is interested in computers can replace computer scientists is wrong: there are a lot of things that a decent education provides like formal languages, computability theory, algorithmical complexity, good design, clean coding, etc
> What? I thought it stood for My Crappy Software Expertise?
no.. I'm pretty sure that it stands for Must Consult Someone with Experience.
I think I have an idea why that is thought to be true . . .
Here at the Damian Conway Memorial University, Computer Science is just one part of the bigger IT Faculty. While we have a focus on Linux (Red Hat 6 is what's installed) we're severely among minority. Pretty much the rest of the University uses Windows, because it's good enough for their needs.
So why the perception I quoted above, which runs rife among CS students who "have to" use Linux? Because their perception of tech support comes from Helpdesk, which I've seen manned by second-year students, whom I teach and thus know can't debug their way out of a paper bag (and certainly can't solve someone else's computer problem). (*) Anything more difficult than "I need to change my password" and you're largely on your own.
Naturally, Helpdesk is far more interested in supporting Windows than they are in supporting Linux, because that's what their customers (most of the University) want. Thus almost everything about the Univeristy's computer networks is optimized for Windows. It's no surprise that the computers work better running Windows than they do running Linux.
As a result, students get more problems running Linux than they do with Windows. And they go to Helpdesk with the problem, get no appreciable help, and come away with the notion that their problem is that they're running Linux, and if they just switched to Windows everything would work fine and dandy.
This attitude is rampant among my students (not the ones here who read slashdot, but many of the others, who complain to me about being made to use Linux). It's not surprising that they take their Helpdesk experience away with them and extrapolate it to Linux support in general.
I realize that there's a circular argument there. But logic isn't a prerequisite for justifying a University department's choices.
(*) Yes, not all of Helpdesk is like that. I happen to know that some very talented people support Linux on a measly University salary here. But they're far removed from Helpdesk, so students don't see them.
The same is true for development environment. To a beginning C++ programmer, VC++ may be the best thing since sliced bread, and it may be popular with a bread-and-butter industry of Windows developers (as well as a few big companies), but a lot, if not most, real-world, heavy-duty development does not take place in that kind of environment.
In fact, I think it is unacceptable for any IT professional to know only one platform. UNIX IT professionals must be intimately familiar with Windows, and Windows IT professionals must be intimately familiar with UNIX. And both should have knowledge of other platforms and software development environments as well.
There is nothing inherently wrong with all Linux desktop GUIs looking the same, is there?
Well, hell yes there is! More is better. Don't like to think too much about things, just pick one you like and use it. If you don't want to confuse your poor delicate users, pick one for them. I like window maker. Is he telling me that I to use Enlightenment, configured just so by Red Hat?
As is probably the theme at the majority of third-level educational establishments, student's exposure to OS technology at the Institute of Technology, Carlow is Microsoft-focused and desktop-based. ...
"nearly everyone who used Linux last year went on to fail their project". It came out that a number of individuals were missing from the final year due to failing the project element in year three. When I probed for the root cause of the project-failing problem, I got my second shock: "Linux is too hard to install". I was shocked not because these two statements were necessarily false but because these 31 students had pretty much convinced themselves that success was tied to Microsoft and failure to Linux.
Sounds like Carlo is cramming stuff down on their students. Even the author has his own load to cram, as cited above, despite his own awareness. I can imagine those students who failed did so because their project was not Wine, or could not write to NTFS, or make appointments on an Exchange server. It's hard to believe that students going to extra effort would all fail if the teachers had useful projects that taught real computer science concepts rather than procuct familiarization.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
AAAAAAAAAAAAARGHH!!!!!!!!!!
;)
Yeah, those corporate dumbasses. They don't understand a thing.
i'm studying cs in the university of dortmund (www.uni-dortmund.de). almost all mashines there are suns on solaris (of cource). linux is widely supported, too. at least 2/3 of all cs students here have linux expirience, many of them use it regularely and keep windoze for games or so. the most popular distribution here is of cource suse - i prefer mandrake (don't lart plz)
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
There is quite a problem with the active linux users thinking that they are almighty and superior. Personally I use both windows and linux and I have no problem answering questions for either OS. Both are a complete pain in the ass to use.
If you have a problem with windows, you can call up your neighborhood 14 year old and get the problem fixed with a pepsi, if you have a problem with linux ... you can _try_ to get a support package or find a local lug to help you out, but that's not as conforting.
The only thing keeping Linux alive right now is LUG's and their support for newbies. I have found that even inside LUG's you will find the egotistical types who want the user to "Learn on their own". My only problem with telling them to learn on their own is the simple fact that if they're question is "I don't have man pages installed what do I do" ... and you answer RTFM ... you just lost another linux user and their influence on other users.
For every one user you convert to linux ... they will convert three more ... it works for drugs and religions ... so be it ... it will work for linux.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
At first I thought this should be under the "It's Funny, Laugh" category. Then, I read the article. Now I'm positive it should be under the "It's Sad, Cry" category.
Part of me is glad I didn't go to a 4-year school.
havinbf been a student for 3 years, then giving it up dues to
;o)
a) no money
b) it wasshite
uni teaches you absolute crap about real world IT, its all microsoft and office...why bother? doesnt anyone do cisco or solaris courses? teach the greatness of GPL and open source?
its a damn disgrace, thats what it is?
ben
network admin, unix/.cisco
no degree
lots of experiance
The fact that Redmond and Cupertino engineers have already ported (most of) the Office technology to Mac OS X indicates that a port to the X Window System would not be too difficult.
He should add this to his 'clanger' section.
The ease of porting Office to OS X has nothing to do with the ease of porting Office to X Windows. Microsoft has had a version of Office on Mac for years. The OS X environment has two sets of APIs for programmers: Carbon and Cocoa. Cocoa is the native OS X set of APIs. Carbon is a translation layer that maps the APIs from Mac OS 9 and below to the correct function calls on OS X.
The ease of porting Office to OS X is due to the engineers at Apple who created OS X.
Fight FUD with FUD!
J.J.
The last time I had a terrible dilemma with the choice of a user interface was when I chose bash over ksh.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Don't people slove problems by learning anymore? Chance are that what ever problem you are having has been experienced by someone else, and they wrote a webpage about it. If not, put those analytical skills to use and figure out a solution and write your own webpage.
I only use tech support as a very last option... and that's usually when a PHB is on my case.
I't's been my observation that most IS majors at my school realize that MS sucks but feel that linux is too complicated for them to learn. And people wonder why the CS majors make fun of them.
My perception is somewhat similar. But, from what I've seen of the students with these amoral views, trying to look 1337, is that they generally mature, or they crack and become business majors or MCSE's.
Closed file formats are a big problem, and I don't think some profs realize what they are doing. Generally there are way's around this type of crap if you want to put forth the effort: My CS prof asked that all projects be turned in as Window's EXE's. My solution was to install linux mingw32 and setup wine, but I could have just as easily borrowed someone's W2K setup disks, and got a copy VC++. Need a .doc file? Use staroffice. Unsure of the results? Check it in the lab.
------ 24.5% slashdot pure
No, No, No.
It's Mentally Challenged Slave of the Empire
Wow. News to me.
Funny is their lack of knowlege.
Scary is that they might soon be working for your ISP.
Sad is that all that MS training will soon be moot.
Pro-Linux publication finds Pro-Microsoft bias! Inconceivable!
"'m so tired of having to decide which featureset I want to use today. For C++ development I use Kdevelop, because ...."
Basicly you're saying that any choice is confusing so it's better to give up the freedom of choice...
In the same lines your say you're using both because you prefer some features of each...
Seems like the problem is you can't make up your mind and blame it on the choice.
"The GNOME/KDE choice is annoying. Honestly I don't care which one goes away, I just wish one of them would."
The solution you then offer is throw away the choices and live with what's imposed
.
I'am sure you'll be the first one complaining about the fact they threw out the wrong one
...
go away troll
When I first went to college in the early 90s I was a Mac zealot on a then-Mac-dominated campus (no longer, sadly). I had a number of friends who were serious DOS junkies and considered things like "customizeable memory managers" (not that you would want to, but HAD to) a good thing.
This just brings back such memories...
/Brian
Um, no, it's MCSE: Microsoft Certified System Engineer.
"Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try."
Commercial software (even Microsoft tools) are not released with obscure bugs for the purpose of billing back Tech Support fees.
The reason Incident based Tech Suport is so costly is that you get quality support from very knowledgable people.
Why do you think MS SQL Server cost $250 and Outlook only $95 for support? It's a highly technical product that requires a certain level of skill to support.
I doubt MS counts on Incident based TS as a revenue stream. In fact I am pretty sure TS is costly for them.
what? what I thought we were in the trust tree in the nest, were we not?
2 things
1. Performance
Windows is faster. I run win2k on my Athlon 700 and it runs like a dream, speed wise. Feels fast for desktop duty, not as fast as BeOS, but fast enough to discourage me from upgrading my hardware. I don't play games, though.
I dual boot RH7.2. It's really slow. I know that I could pare down the install and get a fast version of linux on there. But come on, people who think Linux will catch on should understand that a lot of the new stuff out there is slow. Really slow. I can't imagine running the default RH7 install on a pentium II or less. I think the performance aspect of Linux is currently overblown on the desktop. On the server, I have no doubt Linux does great.
2. Stability
Win2k doesn't crash. I have crappy hardware and my RH7.2 goes down occasionally. Even though I run ext3 I often must fsck when it comes back up. And a lot of the files get corrupted so I constantly have to replace lost system files.
People can say what they want about my sys admin abilities, I'd say I'm above average and have a pretty good background.
Final note: I'm not complaining. I think Linux is just fine. But let's be realistic as a community. I've been using Linux for 5 years now and the closer it gets to becoming a solid desktop system the more it picks up the disadvantages of Win3.1. People may want to knock me personally, but I am a tad more experienced than the average desktop user, and there is a great deal to go before the average user should even think about playing with linux. I like to tool around with it, but it's certainly not ready for most people I know. Probably including myself. For those who wan't to tinker with their system and continuously upgrade software, go ahead.
Yes, it is pretty funny what college students don't know, isn't it?
Yeah. I'm still one. But, though it makes me seem immodest, I'd like to think that, yes, I actually have a clue.
I left a rabidly expensive university to attend a local community college. Why? For $2k a year, I'm now getting thirty times the education I was at the rate of $20+k a year.
Sad, but true. My local community college is stacked with teachers who hold real life jobs. Most large 'big name' schools are filled with people who have been out of the industry for decades.
RIT was funny. Our CS1 professor kept insisting Java was the future, and everyone would be using Java for everything. Now, I dislike Java, but I can see it has uses. But everything?
Right. That's like saying C is the language to use for everything. Or Perl. Or any other language.
C'mon.
Most of my friends who've attended other large schools report the same thing: Their professors are out of touch with reality, and the only thing they do teach is buzzword compliance. That is, "This is the latest thing from X Company! We'll start pushing that, so X Company sends us a big fat check!"
I like my tiny, under-respected community college. Sure, they're teaching us Cobol. They have a clue though - Cobol may be 40+ years old, however, a quick search on dice/monster/the newspaper reveals *hordes* of Cobol positions, ripe for the taking.
Are they doing something wrong? Will we be stuck in dead-end jobs, only to be terminated if/when Cobol is damned to rot?
No, because they're teaching us *technique* first, syntax second.
I didn't get that for $20k a year.
Wow. So you can jerk around in User Manager, and you can properly calculate subnets 6 times out of 10. If you think that qualifies you to call yourself and Engineer you're quite confused. An engineer is someone who understands the fundementals and principles of the solution he is devising. Knowing what buttons to mash to properly sucure IIS does NOT make you qualified to handle any corporate firewall, it just makes you a monkey.
It's people like you that helped MS Websites get hacked and lose 1 million credit cards each year.
Just need to bitch here, mostly about the current IT training offerings out there...
I want to work in Networks and Systems. I've been doing ISP helpdesk for just over a year, and it's getting stale fast. So I've been looking around for some courses that offer *nix and MS, and solid networking skills. The edu situation looks like this:
-Private "colleges" (DeVry, CompuCollege, any fly-by-night school that offers MSCE) : 6-12 mnths full-time==$15,000 CDN gets you a certificate, usually MSCE and A+, vouchers to take the tests.
-Community Colleges, and Lesser Colleges (the ones you go to to prepare for University, get a business degree, etc): Part-time/Full-time, poor course offerings or limited curriculuum, tend to focus on CS, not enough Sys/Net offerings. 6-12mnths, $5000-$10,000 CDN, vouchers to take the tests, Certificate.
-University or Tech schools(BCIT): By far the most intensive, thorough offerings of the bunch. Part-time,/Full-time, still focussed mostly on CS, but their Sys/Net courses are a good mix of MS/*nix, Cisco stuff and even Novell sometimes. 12months-2years.
$7000-$15,000. Gets you a Certificate, vouchers to take the vendor exams.
Now, I make piddly as helpdesk drone and even in this economy, I'll have hard time breaking out of the tech support trap. (Once a phonedrone, no one will touch you). I figure that once I finish a course, things will begin to improve. The problem is this: the University of BC offers a 12 month course in Sysadmining, it's a good course, ~$7K, part-time. Good stuff, But part-timers dont qualify for a student-loan. So I'm fucked. And all I want to know is this:
How is it that I can take 4 _full_ years of University and walk out with a BA knowing the sum of 2000 years of human knowledge in a particular discipline for ~$4000-5000 in tuition and books --- but it takes 2 years of part-time, twice-a-week, 5hr-long _seminars_ that are offered once per term, to get a "Certificate" in a discipline that is 30 years old at a cost of $7000-$10,000? WTF? Hell, even the 2 year CSci degree is only $4K, fulltime! $7K to learn how to compile Apache and setup Exchange 2000? Please....
BTW, I already know half the shit any of these courses could teach me, but the paper helps a great deal, and a little formal edu never hurt...
I'm sorry, but your attitude proves the point that MS does have better tech support. We'll charge clueless companies lots of money. Right off the bat you are looking down your nose at people who you don't even know with the opinion that they are stupid. This is the concern that people have about using IRC or USENET and this is that attitude that you give. I have used MS support and, while the people sometimes are a bit cocky, they aren't plain out nasty. If you want to reach mass market with Linux that means you have to deal with many people who want to use their computer as a tool the same as they use their car. The don't want to have to memorize the innards and know how to build the latest Kernel just to write a business report. I think the problem with Linux is that the community wants 2 things at the same time. You want to beat Microsoft and become the dominant OS but at the same time be an elite operating system used and understood by only a few. You can't have it both ways.
A few points I'd like to make. MOST IT undergrads today focus on the theory taught in class with no practical experience, and A LOT of what we're taught in these classes are Microshit related. Few know the joys of Open Source software, and for those of us "geeks" who do, our knowledge does not apply in the classroom. Some problems are with the IT Students, but a lot has to do with how Microsoft's Assimilation.
since when has there ever been a *nix problem you cant find the answer to on dejanews?
you sir, are a cocksucker
No,
Must Call Support Everyday
Death and poverty like me so much, they've brought friends!
in an educated world, people use tact, sophisctication and logic to win arguments. welcome to the educated world, and know that pictures, propaganda and rhetoric doesn't get you any ground here.
I have no desire to reach nirvana.
I've been seeing that phrase come up since MS-DOS 3.3 (which is the first MS product I used).
To this day, "It does that sometimes" and "it just works, don't ask why" are phrases used commonly by
* Me troubleshooting MS products.
* MS people I've worked with.
* many other people, knowledgeable or not.
it should be made a law of computing or something.
~
~
:wq
No, I'm not a student here. I just drove my wife for her final exam, coz she can't drive due to her surgery last week.
I wandered around, and found a computer lab "donated by Microsoft". There are about 80 machines here, every single one running NT. Guess what is the development tool? Yeah, VB 6.0. And the MS Office package, WinQBS, and SPSS. I think this is for student development work, as I see people working on VB things. This is a bad trend, as these people will go out and only think that MS is the only software company.
Besides, every machine has a 17" ViewSonic monitor, but the resolution is set at 800x600, with 60Hz refresh rate. And the admin privilege is locked, so you can change it. I bet the admin is a MCSE.
I'm going to get out of here before I vomit.
Remarkably, many students stated the following as gospel: "Microsoft produce high quality software products." Which helps explain why the Windows OS never crashes, doesn't it?
That right there stinks newbie a mile away.
I just graduated from an IT program and saw all sorts of people like this. They were MCSE and had never heard of linux. I talked to my old teacher the other day and he said that people that had gone through the program and didnt know how to format a harddrive! The kind of people who say stupid crap like that above are going into IT because they want to buy an SUV, not because they like computers
It's not the OS it's the user that sucks. If it's user friendly, you get stupider people. - clinko
I've long been against the futility of "Certifications" and "technical colleges." You absolutely come out of those with good, workable skills. The problem is that the computer industry changes so fast that workable skills in a technology become useless pretty fast. The *ability* to learn and integrate new things is what's important, and a more rounded education can accomplish that a lot better.
Besides, no matter their proficiency at a certain skill set, the employees still have to learn how to be good employees, something they're going to get a better chance at working those low level university IT jobs then they will slaving away over a Cert. And 2 years later, they'll be doing it again, at the employer's cost. On the other hand, a well-rounded employee is going to be constantly advancing his skill set.
It used to be that a cert was an easy road into a job. But lately in the market it seems that certifications can be more of a dead weight if they don't have any practical experience behind them.
who did you poll? Community colleges? Devry? Funny, im in high school, and yet I :( )
:)
A. Know html, and quite a bit of c++.
B. Use linux all the time
C. wrote a device driver for my lcd panel.
D. Have a fairly secure linux network with VPN (please dont test it
E. set up a linux cluster using lam, actually pretty easy
F. have a linux server set to accept connections from my thin client
I would say that I know a fair bit about linux. Maybe not tons, but id say im proficcient.
Oh ya, and i am going to major in CS
I don't know the charge elsewhere, that's the case here:
:)
"Hello Microsoft support, what can I help you?"
"I got a problem...."
"We'll charge $179 for each probblem instance, 3 instances minimum."
"So...the minimum charge for raising a support call is....$537 right?..."
"Right you are....what is your second question?"
Sorry I made the last one up, but the rest is real.
Quick question. Have you ever got the person who lead the development of a certain Linux project on the phone to personally diagnose and step through fixing the problems? Well, we did with Microsoft SNA Server, at 4:00am, at his home, and for two hours. IRC? Newsgroups? I'm sorry, when my job is to ensure that the systems work, neither are options that I would admit to my boss that I was using, especially when the typical response is, "RTFM you lazy newbie." And the $175/incident is actually the cheapest support we pay, considering their help is very rarely required.
start their first real job. Very few companies put a brand-spanking new undergrad in charge of their systems. As a result, the newly minted grad is made a pfy to someone more senior. It is this more senior person who, after dealing with the shit microsoft puts out, ends up showing the benefits of unix over windows and blowing the myths that 'everyone knows is true' out of the water.
Ignorance is lifted, myths dispelled, and another class is shown how things work in the real world.
I know /. is largely Microsoft haters and Linux lovers, but come on people:
Microsoft technical support IS the best in the industry. I've used their documentation, 1-800 numbers, online support, the entire range of services they offer. They ARE defacto the best! Slam thier products but you cannot slam the quantity and quality of documentation and support.
As little Joe Nobodies in a 20 person company we've put in tech support calls that they've stuck with for weeks and esculated to the level we actually traced through some of the ADO libraries and SQL Server engine with the original developers while running our code.
I love Linux to death, and death to Microsoft. But come on people give them credit where it's due at least!
This guy tried to come of as conducting an even-handed assessment of what students think about linux, but by the end his piece degenerated into a banal advocacy rant (which I guess he's entitled to do in the Linux Journal). A couple of late statements that bugged me:
His bitch about the observation, "Microsoft has more experience building Desktop OS and GUI technology, so they should be better at it than anyone else." Hey man, GUIs are hard and it takes a lot of feedback to get them right. How many Windows users like GUIs vs. Linux users that like GUIs? Plenty more eyeballs scrutinizing MS stuff.
"'The Linux command line is hard to learn and use.' No, it simply is not." How the hell does he know what's hard for someone to learn? I suppose you could also say that German is easy to learn so you shouldn't use Babelfish. Whatever. That's all I need is my mom editing bash scripts with vi. C'mon.
Enough of my anti-MS-rant rant.
The article is full of biased, unsubstantiated opinions. As a student purchasing an education I want just the facts, please. Too many academics view their position as a pedestal.
The thing about why people say that MS technical support is the best in the industry is because of their name and where they place themselves. People know that when they have a problem with a MS product, they call Microsoft. If you have a problem with your Dell Laptop, you call Dell. The same for IBM servers.
/. about how a lot of linux users are too advanced to teach beginners. Consumers don't care about Open Source, Consumers don't care about customizability. They want something that they feel secure with. [That makes them feel all cuddly inside.] They want to be able to click on My Computer and have it go to the hard drives. They want to be able to go out to a store and buy software with the MS Windows Compatible sticker. And I think Linux has the potential to do all this and be even better. But it is going to take some major time and also we have to look into how we market linux to consumers.
Now, if I [I as in not me, but a "typical" user] has a problem with their Linux installation... who do I call? Do I call RedHat? Do I call VA Linux? To be completely honest, a typical user does not want to spend hours reading dejanews or HOWTOs to find out why they can't run spell check in emacs.
The thing is, we being inside the industry are not able to look at the full picture. We, being inquisitive and want to know anything and everything, are willing to put in the extra time to learn. But a person majoring in Business or Art Humanities wants to be able to click on a button and run spellcheck. They don't want to spend the time to learn how a computer works. I mean, how many of us are willing to buy an "open source" automobile? How many of us want to spend the time to figure out how an internal combustion engine works or how a catalyic converter works?
Just because we do certain things doesn't mean that we can expect consumers to be just like us.
Lastly, Linux is a great operating system. I run it for a lot of my CS projects. However, when it comes down to writing a paper, I will not think twice before using Win2k/MSOffice. Linux has a lot of potential but before it can actually succeed it has to be more "consumer friend" (different from User Friend). A while back, there was an article here on
Well, that's my 4.5 cents...
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
Ummm... no.
MSCE = Master of Science [Computer,Civil] Engineering.
MCSE = Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer.
Bonus points: Which of the above are actually engineers?
It doesn't surprise me really considering how much MS is out there in real world IT. As an IT staffer helping to support UNIX (Solaris) under glass and more than 1200 mac desktops, I can assure you from talking with new staff, vendors, reading trades, etc, that beating MS cancer takes vigilance. We convinced our management that extending the mac network beyond the creatives would cost about 25% less to support than MS. Some (uncited) studies have proven this. Anecdotally, 1200 macs - 6 help desk staff. An E10K with 6 domains, plus 10 or so more sun boxes, and only 3 sysadmins. If everyone in the industry was as dedicated and thoughful as *most* of the slashdot crowd, MS wouldn't have a chance.
The demise of the MacOS clones drove me from classic MacOS to WinNT. WinNT promptly drove me to Linux.
At my university (of Arizona), MS sponsors all sorts of activities for the CS department. This has a huge influence on what the student hear and think. I'm a CS minor, its a hobby, and all the TA's for the intro course, in Java no less, are all MS "enthusiasts." Its an odd sight looking around at the kids grinning like idiots over their Windows based laptops, and the "teachers" wearing XBOX caps. The Prof did an informal survey at the begining of the course, and like others suggested, by far most students are in it for the money, having little previous computer experience. They are ripe for the picking by MS. It is really sad. The CS department wouldn't even set up remote homework collection for our class, because most of the TA's had no unix experience, and would not be able to access our turned in homework via ssh. At least every single piece of the UofA's network/ CS department servers are Unix. Its odd though, the fact that a school does not use MS products for their networks, yet breeds graduates that toe the MS line.
Standard ridiculous /. subjectivity.
Invoicing, Time Tracking, Reporting
I've had the (un)fortunate luxury of working with several just-out-of-college programmers and so-called techies/SA's. One thing has become painfully clear to me: tech education means dick. I'd hire a taught-myself-everything dude any day, rather than taking on a fresh-out-of-college mush-for-brains. That's my opinion, an' I'm stickin' to it!
I graduated with a CompSci degree in 2000 at UKC in Kent, UK. When I first arrived we were taught UNIX skills such as vi etc. However the year that arrived after us were taught NT! UKC is a really UNIXy UK university and some idiot thought it good to get rid of it for the undergrads.... doh! We formed a protest group as 3rd years, we got a petition and forced the uni to teach UNIX. Now a year later they are glad they took our advice.
Advocacy is an interesting thing, funny at my home (office) I'll openly admit to using XP on my desk, why not ? Its pretty good for a MS OS and I want to get work done in an interchangible format without spending a whole load of time messing around. You see you can all argue till the sun sets, but the fact is some of us don't have time to piddle around or argue for that fact!
As for UNIX boxes, well I love 'em to bits, and if Linux had a good office package I'd use it rather than XP. I have a Netra T1 AC105 with Solaris and 5 Linux boxes, so don't say I don't know my stuff.
As for graduates being dumb blah blah, well everyone does IT for different reasons and thats their choice. All I find in this industry is a pack of 'I'm a guru know-alls' who actually know squat. Why don't IT consultants act more professionally, keep their mouths shut at the relevant times and help people rather than blow their own trumpets?
Another one is incompetance, how many other industries can important records be blown away by a keystroke, with some kiddy saying 'we don't need a backup strategy as modern computers are reliable' ?
Finally, I don't know everything, but I sure as hell am willing to learn and show others.
One of the reasons I never post on Slashdot is because I am too busy, hell a lot of you guru's are either a) On benefit b) wasters - if you have time to argue all this stuff online!
MSCE = Must Consult Someone Experienced
MCSE = Morons Crudely Simulating Expertise
MCSE = Management Conned by Something Expensive
MCSE = My Company Screws Everyone
Yeah, like _that_ would help....
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
I totally agree with you there. To me, a self taught background is better than an well-funded high price bad education. It is so much easier to teach someone something new that they are interested in rather than unlearn all the bad stuff that some "third-tier" colleges teach. The fact of the matter is that a good percentage of the people in IT education are in it for the fast money. Which is going to be the downfall of the industry. Now, if I were a company, one of my top priority is to hire well educated recruiters that know and can pick out between the excellent and the decent. This is KEY!
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
As soon as Linux gets a better GUI than Windows it's desktop marketshare will rise dramatically. Linux in the server space is extremely popular, why is that? Because it's pretty damn good.
I just don't think that KDE or GNOME cut it. We need a new GUI that doesn't rely on XWindow.
Im a final year software systems eng student in Australia, at RMIT.
The majority of our course so far has been with windows.
Builder, Delphi, Vc++(yuk), Java(forte) etc.
At our uni the funding is crap. thanks johnnie.
I do most of my studying at home simply because the on campus computers are slow and there are never enough to go round.
As a student if you dont have your own computer at home and dont get hold of a pirated copy of the development software then you will most likely fail. Fortunately students develop excellent skills at 'aquireing' software.
Learning to install linux for the first time isn't easy (especially for students) And the home computer is most likely windows. 'Dad can i re-partition the hard drive?' And how will your little brother play Max payne?
Now if students fail, the uni gets less fees and lecturers get sacked.
Fortunatly for us the last few years we only get taught software design. And are expected to learn the platform and language ourself.
ie we are learn how to learn.
So once ive finished and have the time (unemployed) then ill get right into linux.
the computer science department had decided that the function of the cs department was to produce people who could get jobs. therefore, classes should be offered using microsoft development and OS tools whenever possible... in other words, the program was leaning more towards producing MCSE's than computer science graduates who knew little endian from O(n) from a hole in the ground. since most undergrad people wanted jobs that didn't involve asking if their customers would like fries, most undergrads happily went along with using microsoft tools; and since no one other than microsoft was giving free software to the department, no one else's products were discussed. the only other operating system that was even brought up (in a class called 'operating systems') was UNIX, and that consisted of a bunch of theory and some shell programming (bash); which was pretty much useless, because there was no comparison to windows... it's hard to see the merits of something that's standing alone.
I also remember speaking to a recruiter a while ago... in response to seeing both 'UNIX' and 'GNU/Linux' on my resume suggested I remove both and concentrate on what I knew about microsoft tools.
evil empire, indeed. convert the children first.
Karma only matters to me now and zen.
Depending on the task I could see ways to spin MS tech support as top notch though. There are some tasks MS products do very well and their organization is designed around supporting. For example if I was trying to make 5 computers talk to each other and share a printer attached to one of them and use a common disk attached to another one of them I could do it with Linux or Win2k in roughly the same time, but I'm fairly experienced with Linux. If I wasn't expert at either, I bet I could actually do it with win2k in a reasonable amount of time (say a day) and when I had problems I could read their help, go to their web site and I bet I could get it done without ever talking to anyone. I think it would be very difficult, even with the newest mandrake and other easier to install dists to do it if you were a fairly novice person. If they found the howtos they could probably figure it out but they aren't always displayed in an obvious location, even on Mandrake there isn't an icon on the desktop or a search feature for them, they are in the KDE docs menu though..
If I had to do that and I suffered with it, I might say MS had better tech support. Likewise, bye the 5 or 6th try at it, MS has made the networking install and configuration pretty good and they've put a fair amount of effort in to trouble shooting those issues before you even have to go to the web or pickup the phone. At that particular task, they may be the best in the world. At real tasks that require real support? Well that's a little different.
Oh my gawd! I am soooo confused! Which religion should I choose. The world would be a better place if there were only one religion.
certainly not mine.
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
At Drexel U, most of us CS students walk the walk and talk the talk. I haven't used word in 3 years. My papers are all in latex, emacs is my word processer emailer and newsreader, gimp is my image editor, galeon is my browser of choice, followed by mozilla, gaim is my IM client, etc etc... most of my CS friends are the same. But then again, most of my CS friends are smart. The IT students on the other hand all swear by Microsoft and IIS, believe that everything can be solved in the next service pack, and think that microsoft tech support rules. I can't blame them though, that's what they teach in the School of IT. Microsoft is what most of the university uses, including our Information Resources and Technology dept. Perhaps the reason why the CS students are different is that almost from Day 1 as a CS major, you are told that Unix is the preferred way to do your work. Although, I've been getting the sense that this is changing with the younger crowd. As they say, shit rolls downhill.
Humorless sig goes here.
Neither. In the USA, a Professional Engineer has to be licensed by their state. In Pennsylvania, that requires taking a Fundamentals of Engineering Exam, accumulating 5 or so years of experience, supervised by a licensed Professional Engineer, and then taking the Professional Engineer's exam itself. A Master's degree doesn't make you an engineer, and neither does an MCSE.
However, if you go with a very broad interpretation of the word engineer, they both are. Take your pick.
ANyone who gives me a resume with a title
"IT graduate" goes right in the trash. Not even need to read about experience or achievements.
The term "IT student" was invented for the CS
dropouts. The people who just DID NOT CUT IT
brain-wise to become real "Computer scientists"
End of story
My younger brother pointed out to me that a lot of people on this board were bitching about how kids born in the 1980's were idiots because they only know of the Microsoft world. The world that began to dominate in the late 1980's. Planet Microsoft.
I was born in 1980. Vaguely, I can remember using "Apple" 's in Elementry school. We played on spelling games and stuff. In middle school it was Microsoft, Windows 3.x - "it's so pretty!"
My freshman year in high school I put Windows 95 on my PC at home. I had used DOS on that computers for years. After about 2 years of Win95, I was ready to throw my paper weight computer off of a cliff.
I started looking for a solution to the BSOD issue at hand. Everytime I got on mIRC someone WinNuked me. "hax0rs".
In 1996, my younger brother got Debian from an ebay auction for like $3. We had a pretty new computer at the time and as beginners, Debian wasn't the way to go. We tried for a while and gave up as we didnt know anything about Linux or how to get help. On the CD, written with a sharpy, "Debian".
About 6 months later, I bought a copy of Redhat from walmart. My brother laughed as I tried putting it on my computer. We were both ammused when... "holy shit, it works". We put it on his computer next.
We've been using non-dual-booting PC's with linux for about 4 years now.
So, listen - we were raised on Microsoft and Apple's, show us the solution and we will bit at the hook. Don't judge, teach.
Did anyone else notice that the university where the students were having all this trouble is in *Ireland*?
(cross-cultural note: Irish jokes are to most non-US anglo-saxons the equivalent of Polish jokes to Americans and Norwegian jokes to Swedes. I believe the Irish have Kerryman jokes...)
I have not actually done a survey with the undergrads, but from my perception, we should be able to find a correlation between the competence of a student (in term something "real", eg performance in a project, not just merely marks) and their attitude towards unfamilar OS/language etc.
The main problem is probably not "brainwashed" by MS , but rather, lack of passion to learn anything new. Many are attracted to do CS or IT for the wrong reasons (eg image, salary, job availabilty etc).
Trust me, most of these "MS fans" are the same bunch of today's marginal IT workers: someone who does not know how to lookup his/her own IP, does not understand the need to apply service pack, compulsive rebooter etc...
The only thing the survey tells me is a large percentage of the people in CS and IT are in it for money pure and simple. It's not because they lay awake at night thinking in code, abtraction layers or regular expressions. Every industry has the same problem.
There will always be a significantly larger percentage of people in an industry for the money than those in it for love. Will microsoft kill linux? Hardly, the source it already out there. Will linux kill windows? Hardly, something else will kill windows. I don't get people's pre-occupation with platform wars. First and foremost surveys like these tell more about the person giving the survey than those taking it. The message is only useful if you know who is telling it and why.
The article itself is mildly interesting, although it basically comes down to sending uninformed students to read all the FUD they can find on both sides and seeing what sticks. And the author doesn't seem to understand what Linux being free really means, and is wrong when he corrects his students about the cost of Windows. (If a PC costs the same with and without Windows, it is effectively free (beer) for you, even if someone ultimately pays for it.)
But I thought the most interesting thing was this bit:
Then the first shock came: someone blurted out, "nearly everyone who used Linux last year went on to fail their project". It came out that a number of individuals were missing from the final year due to failing the project element in year three. When I probed for the root cause of the project-failing problem, I got my second shock: "Linux is too hard to install".
Uh, hello? Anyone see anything ominous about that anecdote? It seems odd to hear that account and decide that the problem is that users need to be convinced that Linux is easy to use.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
im glad most of those IT students are fuckin
morons. means i get more money. my last 2 jobs
i went from looking for a job to working in
less then 3 weeks. some others i know took
months..both jobs were/are great. go to
the right company and the people interviewing
will know within 60 seconds a moron from someone
like me. if they don't realize it then i don't want to work there because i will be treated like a moron.
Did either of the support groups you talked to suggest that testing your backups are a part of the backup procedure, and not a part of the restore procedure?
cheers,
-Jon
this is my sig.
Doesn't look like the professors had a problem picking up, teaching, and grading a "real world" language.
Its not the job of a "real" CS program to teach you "job" skills. Its job is to teach Computer Science; in other words, theory. The rationale here is that the industry will be pumping and dumping languages every decade, but an "educated" developer will be able to adapt to the new environment, because the concepts involved are the same, regardless of the language.
Now, BlahBlah Tech should be a different story, since its not their job to produce computer scientists. But note the contradiction in what you say. The majority of professors do not have a problem picking up new languages and environments. (In fact, the majority of professors I knew, either all had side jobs in IT, or were involved in current technical projects.)
The problem is that CS professors generally care more about their research or tenure. Teaching undergrads, in most cases, was scutwork that needed to be dealt with as efficiently and in as little time possible. That is the reason why many (not so good) programs still teach with dead languages. They only upgrade when they perceive they will lose paying customers because their department isn't offering a skill package predominantly found in the "real" world.
The problem is that CS departments do not educate. At least they could run the class in a "modern" language; that way it would look like they're doing something for your tuition money.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
A few months ago I first said something along the lines of "Microsoft is somewhat comforting because it eliminates the chore of making choices." I'm beginning to think that it's extremely true. Why is it a bad thing to have two main GUIs to chose from? How hard is it? I can't say it was that hard for me to go from Gnome to KDE when I wanted to try KDE. Maybe it was because my first GUI wasn't Windows or Mac, it was Geoworks, on DR-DOS. Now I use Windowmaker. I can't see how one can get so frozen into a certain layout that they are completely unproductive without it.
Rereading your comment reminds me of another phrase, a better one, and one that was said by someone besides me (a teacher, I think):
If you're confused, don't worry. It means you're LEARNING.
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
I'm an undergrad majoring in computer science, and after reading the untrue, generalized things that some of you had to say about college students, I had to reply. First of all, I'm sick and tired of this animosity between those of us that went to school and those of us that taught ourselves everything and went into the industry basically direct from high school (which seems to be non-student making fun of students). Just because I'm a university student does not in anyway mean that everything I've learned about computer science has come from class; I, too, have learned most of it on my own, prior to college. Granted, I will admit that there are quite a few idiots who are in my CS classes, but these are the guys who have or will soon change their major when they realize that CS does mean clicking on things and playing Quake. Second of all, you're outright wrong to assume that college students have no exposure to non-MS software. At my school, we do the vast majority of our work on Sun workstations, and we have a several student-built and maintained Linux servers. I myself used to run Debian, although Linux is not on any of my current machines (Unless you count my floppy distro cable gateway). In my school anyway, a majority those that came to school with no prior Linux experience have learned something from those of us that do. Thirdly, I agree with the point that someone brought up about not worrying about those that heard about MSCE on the radio and now reset NT servers for a living.. these are the people who will make those of us who DO know our shit look even smarter. Last, I strongly disagree with this "college students have no field experience" nonsense. I, personally, have been doing this stuff since back in the 386 days (not as long as some of you, I'm sure) I have a couple years of networking experience and a CCNA (not like that's a bragging right, however) and I also helped out a friend who started an IT company. Several of my friends from school have a ridiculous amount of experience and knowledge, probably more than some of you who poke fun at those that "drudge to class while I make money." However, there are a few idiots in my classes that are Windows Wizards, which do provide me with an endless source of amusement when I eavesdrop on their conversations pertaining to IT. The bottom line is that there are idiots everywhere. Some of them go to college, some of them don't. Just because someone attends a university for CS, or something like DeVry for that matter, doesn't mean that they have no prior knowledge of computers, other non-MS operating systems, or field experience. That generalization makes about as much sense as saying that all English major couldn't read before college.
A few months ago, I had an issue with sound under the latest 2.4 series kernels. This was with the trident driver and an ALi 1535+ southbridge. I have been using Linux as my sole desktop operating system for a while, and sound is very important for desktop/gaming use. This bug caused an OOPS when the module was loaded, which became a serious problem.
I read Documentation/oops-tracing.txt, and I submitted my report with whatever information I could figure out. What did I get in response? Within four days, 7 people were talking on this thread, including kernel giants Alan Cox and RML. Within four days, I had a patch that made this problem go away. (turned out to be bigger than just my card)
Do you really think that I could have gotten that kind of support from Microsoft? You might say that four days is a lot. But do you think I'd have ever gotten anywhere with MS? Even if I could get the level of debugging as I did from ksymoops, I'd have gotten shoved around. Microsoft would claim that its the manufacturer's responsibility, and the manufacturer would certainly not be receptive to any kind of technical description of a problem from a customer.
We're the guys who call the DSL company and have to say "Your access concentrator is sending a PADT packet to terminate the session," with the only response being "Sir, can you tell me if your modem is on?" I've actually tricked at least 2 of their techies into believing that I'm running Windows.
Verizon: Now open up Network Neighborhood.
Me: Hold on a second. It's still warming up... Oh damn, it hung. Let me reboot.
I didn't pay a cent for support. In exchange for a few minutes of my time learning to use ksymoops, I got replies from some of the top kernel developers, and got the problem fixed. Beat that, Microsoft.
Michael F. Robbins
M Must
C Call
S Someone
E Else
If ever having left someone's prescence, you feel as if you lost a quart of plasma, AVOID that prescence -W.H.Burroughs
I have windows xp on one of my computers, and I am so sorry I bought the damn thing. I have to push the reset button on my computer at least 5 times daily. When I get back home, im going to get rid of this horror called windows xp, and go install win98. At least it crashes less.
The goal of computer science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it.
I haven't seen any post from a student.
This to me seems like a "urban legend" or mis-information as the other students I encounter and deal with loathe Windows and are all for Linux. As well as a few months ago the posts on slashdot about a college campus having full support of Linux when the faculty were going microsoft.( I forget when or where but believe it to be maryland area). you have those students who do windows, and those for macs even, but there is great support for Linux that I see that grows as some use it and work on it.
That's about the closest to The Truth I've ever seen posted on this shitty weblog. Somebody mod this up!
I disagree I tought at a technical college linux Admin/usage, along with other courses. I found the night studenst much mroe willing with linux, because they had desire, and were a bit more open minded. The day students I had liked NT and novel... because they knew it. One of my best Linux students was older and got a job from the course, In fact a Solaris Admin course I taught didnt have a sole under 35 in the class.
geekpunk
/* declare all variables */
Linux itself when downloaded for free has no support, its even in the License agreement. So if you want a free copy, go ahead, just don't complain about support.
This is what you should be looking for in terms of support:
Purchase from a Linux vendor:
Check to see what your purchase entitles you to, for most distro's this is a standard 30-60 day installation support.
If you want more then most of the larger distrobutions will offer professional services as an extra offering, in fact this is common with large software products, check with the distro to see how much it is and what they can offer.
Hardware vendor:
The big one here is IBM. Never purchased from them, but it might be similer to what the distro's offer.
In fact here is what they offer:
Depending on customer need, IBM offers 24-hour a day, 7-days a week Internet and voice support, ranging from answering usage questions to identifying problems. IBM Global Services also provides consulting, planning and implementation services for Linux. IBM consultants can help you evaluate whether Linux is appropriate for your particular environment.
Now, customers can turn to IBM Global Services as a one-stop shop for Linux support. For information on properly configuring and implementing, as well as enhancing, your Linux solutions or additional service and support offerings please call 1-888-426-4343.
IBM operational support services
*
IBM is here to support Linux at every step of the way on its remarkable journey. We've already dedicated $1 billion to Linux development and will invest more than $300 million in Linux services over the next three years.
*
7x24 Enterprise Level remote support for your Linux OS environment.
*
Fast and accurate problem resolution.
*
A way to supplement your internal staff with IBM's skilled services specialists.
*
Defect support for supported distributions of the Linux OS and Linux applications.
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Electronic support and problem submission that saves you time and allows you to track your open support issues.
IBM's premier remote technical support for Linux
An IBM Business Partner, Worklab develops its solutions with IBM e-business products such as IBM DB2 Universal Database for Linux, Lotus Notes and Lotus Domino.
We help answer your how-to questions, help you define problems and determine their source. Additionally, by leveraging our partnerships with the key distributors of the Linux operating system, IBM is able to provide defect-level support for the Linux OS. Remote assistance is available through toll-free telephone access and electronic access. For all eligible distributions of the Linux operating system, we help you with:
*
IBM is here to support Linux at every step of the way on its remarkable journey. We've already dedicated $1 billion to Linux development and will invest more than $300 million in Linux services over the next three years.
*
usage and installation questions
*
interpretation of product documentation
*
product compatibility and interoperability questions
*
a diagnostic information review to help isolate the cause of a problem
*
configuration samples
*
IBM and multivendor database searches
*
planning information for software fixes
*
defect support
Electronic Support allows you to submit and get answers to your problems electronically.
Not so bad, despite the majority of whining by users who want proffesional support for things that they freely downladed Linuxcare is still going, and yes you have to buy this support. Actually IBM use Linuxcare too.
If you want free support for a free download, go to usenet or use mailing lists.
Matt
My alma mater's CS courses emphasized the SUN platform using open-source/free tools. Most of my project development used the GNU compiler collection, perl, GNU debugger....etc. Since I couldn't afford a nifty SUN workstation at my house, I developed my projects on my Linux box and recompiled for the SUN architecture.
We also had PCs running windows but mostly non-CS majors used them.
The CS department's strategy went something like this:
Understand the concepts.
Implement in a Unix environment.
If you need MS skills, pick them up later.
Serious CS departments need to teach platform independent concepts (security, algorithms, problem solving...etc) and then show their application in all types of environments.
-ted
listen you have to run Apache on a real OS like Linux or FreeBSD...or Nt5.
Win95 need not apply
Am I the only one who found this to be an incredibly disturbing statement?
Then the first shock came: someone blurted out, "nearly everyone who used Linux last year went on to fail their project". It came out that a number of individuals were missing from the final year due to failing the project element in year three. When I probed for the root cause of the project-failing problem, I got my second shock: "Linux is too hard to install".
Say what you want about Hamburger U. If students can't even get their UNIX systems up in time to pass their classes, what f**ked up rationale can one provide to support the notion that everyone (mom, pop, & cheerleader) should chuck M$ for Linux? Can anyone give a credible explanation for why this is merely an anomaly?
This is a serious problem and reality is swinging a mean cluestick.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Microsoft Certified Solitaire Expert
If you want facts, RTFM, read the books or the online information available to you. Personally, the reason I paid all the money was to have teachers with some passion for what they did.
Presumably teachers are in the field because they care about it, and in that case, they probably have some valid opinions that are worth at least listening to, even if you disagree with them (or because you disagree with them - there's plenty to learn from that too).
The teachers I hated most were the ones who's idea of teaching was spouting endless facts that I could just read in the book. I didn't "purchase an education" to have facts served up on a silver platter, as you seem to want, but to gain something from people with experience.
Silly me, what I should've asked for was teachers who didn't give a shit about what they did, but just read the material to me.
Hmmm... I'd like to see how this breaks down by major. I.E. CS, EE, CPE, IS, etc. I find the EE and CPE's much more informed about this sort of thing
The reason for the fact that Microsoft is considered better among the IT Undergrad is the simple fact that they wern't taught anything else. I finished my Undergrad IT degree in May and I feel really sorry for 95% of the people who finished with me. The eduacation simply went like this: semester one... This is a network cable, this is DOS, this is a hard drive... semester two... This is how you make a network cable this is how you use DOS this is how you install a hard drive... semester three.. This is Windows 3.11 This is how it connects to a network. This is BASIC. semester four... Here is WIndows 95/98 they work on a network. semester four... tHis is it! What you've been waiting for the Ultimate! Windows NT 4.0.. this is how you connect your windows clients to NT... CONGRATULATIONS! You now have an IT Degree! This was pretty much the quality of education the others in my class got. This (un)quality of education was largely in part to the fact that there was no one to teach anything else (the school couldn't afford to pay someone $90,000/yr which is what people were making at the time) to teach a real computer course. I luckily took it upon myself to learn Linux and UNIX during my time in college (as well as smoke a bunch of weed, find a few girls, and learn to play counter-strike) along with a couple extra semesters of random classes I was able to learn enough to get over the UNIX learning curve and am now quite successful... I feel though that the others in my class are not fairing as well in this economy...
:)(smile)
I WAS considering getting my under grad degree but, now I am scared I will come out retarded!
We didn't have to deal with UNIX/Linux much outside of a couple classes, though, so it was really easy for students to hate it, and not know how to use it, which was really quite sad.
somehow the problem now is that there is no support!!! Bullshit. Windows, in all of its incarnations, 3.1, 3.11, 95, 98, NT, etc. is a crappy, unreliable OS. It is the burger king of OS, and considering the collecitve IQ of the
herd that uses it and develops for it, support IS an issue, because three out of five clicks will bluescreen the thing. The same herd, approaching unix, has a bigger problem - but it is not addressed by support. Try explaining recursion or simple induction to an idiot -- no amount of support will ever make a difference.
2) (In response to posters above) Depends a lot on the school. Here in the US, state run schools are mostly diploma mills where you get your piece of paper, but can't code or design or think. That's reality. Don't agree? Prove me wrong.
3) The program counts for a lot. MIS/IT programs tend to attract people more interested in the business side of computing than in the bits and bytes. Those programs exist to train pseudo-techie managers, not teach them to be software engineers. These are the people that go into the world and only buy IBM and Ms because "nobody ever got fired for buying from them." Does that make it right? No, but then again, look at the money MS gives in software donations, scholarships, and the like. Tie in with that the fact (gross generalization here) that the people teaching many of those classes come from the business world, where, guess what, MS dominates the desktop.
So what can you do? Teach. Work with local colleges in your area as an industry consultant. Donate time to migrate their computer labs. Donate a bunch of oss related books to their tech library. Etc, etc. Be creative.
Probably though if you go over to their CS labs or EE labs, you'll see that the folks in those programs (as opposed here to MIS/IS/IT) are probably using linux and/or some flavour of unix. Why? Because those folks know there is a strong likelihood they will be developing and/or using unix on the server side and/or in all of the real enterprise systems.
There's some good stuff posted down here in the basement. Sure wish the moderators actually read it.
This was the funniest damn thing I've seen in a long time on /.
Do they teach undergrads at IT University to replace MySQL with PostgreSQL? If so maybe linuxjournal should start hiring:
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This must be an american problem, here in Helsinki(Finland) the IT department of the university has both linux and windows installed in every machine and the students mainly use the linuxes. Actually M$ users are considered to be "inferior" to linux users. Well, I guess this is appropriate for the alma mater of Linus Tornvalds.
"There is a terrorist behind every bush"
Apparently the author hasn't been a student himself. If so, he'd at least have learned not to make general accusations based on a single article on the internet!
At Uni we used Linux. Generally. In first year we had WinNT 4 with emacs and CygWin. Second year we were lucky enough to get Linux boxes, although they did supply fvwm95 as the window manager :-( And we got to learn MIPs assembly. Third year, our choice. Linux labs or Windows 2k machines.
:-)
Great. Lots of fun. Then I got into the real world, and started working for everyone's favourite business, the multinational corporate IT company. And what happens? We use Microsoft. Why? Because our managers made a deal with their managers, and thus we're partners. So we use Exchange, and frequently get email virii (as many staff seem plain dumb unfortunately and have to double click everything). We get IIS, and oh so much pain from that (we managed to lose Internet access for an entire week after some idiot let Code Red through the firewall and it hit all the developers who hadn't got around to patching their machines). And, of course, we get Windows.
The moral here is technical matters don't matter to managers. At least not where I work. They want something everyone knows, and something which managers in other companies will buy. They aren't worried about the best solution; they want one that works and the customer will pay large amounts of money for. So we use Microsoft.
Having said that, thank god I have escaped to Java development ATM. Guess where we do our development however...
This is the only part of the article I disagree with. X Windows is slow. Period. I don't get anywhere near the responsiveness and speed with X-Windows on my PC that I get with Windows. As much as I love developing and playing with Linux, the slow speed of the GUI ticks me off more than anything. I don't see how anyone could not realize how much slower Gnome is then Windows, and then indignantly yell that it's a myth when someone else observes this fact.
$45 per U Colocation Special
promoting MS software on slashdot will not be tolerated.
Prepare to be assimilated!
A little prescriptum: I sent this to Timothy because I assumed he either added the comment or had a chance to edit the comment. Iconian deserves to get a slap too.
---
Dear Timothy,
This is in regard to your Slashdot post about students opinions of Linux. Your comment is biased, prejudiced and generally wrong. I would like you to append an apology, admitting you were acting from unbased prejudice.
One of the comments on the article sums up the case. 'Each class has those who exceed, those who do just enough to pass, and those who suck'. Look around at the IT marketplace, and you'll see the same goes for those in IT. Unfortunately, there are a lot of the ones that just pass or suck, and you're judging the whole bundle by them. How would you feel if some schmuck had a bad experience with Windows and decided all IT workers lived to screw the public? You'd go 'NO! Linux users aren't like that!'.
Some students work, most have realworld jobs (the lucky ones in IT) to pay their way and some students put in a lot of recreational time learning extra skills like Linux. I'm one of the ones that does all three. I'm on Linux right now, at a company employing me to write a dynamic website for Linux (it beats McDonalds). I go to my local LUG, and I help people solve their problems. I advocate Linux to staff. I've worked for three years on a degree and I know stuff about UNIX and programming already that I bet most 50-year old IT workers never learnt. I could write a virtual memory library.
Your comment tells employers that they cannot employ graduates to work on Linux. You're saying three years of study, in and out of school, are worthless. Come to that, you're saying Linus is worthless, because he's a graduate too. I'm not trying to say all students are potential Linus', but some are, and it's completely unfair to make statements of the nature you did.
One more quote: 'This is one more reason people turn to Windows instead of Linux: The uber-geek egotistical superiority complex of the loudest Linux users. And unfortunately, the loudest are the ones who get heard'. Quit abusing people on Slashdot, and please add a note to the article admitting prejudice.
Admirable, and I would like to work for you. Can you get me past the HR drones and their silly keyword search?
Who gives a crap about what Linux is perceived like? I perceive it like a whiff of air from computing in the 1970's, but it is popular because the majority of its users had never tried anything else than Windows or MacOS garbage before they found this arcane piece of crap.
If those who screamed "it's a matter of choice" had any background in UI design, they would understand that their car analogies are perfectly silly: It's not about whether the Lexus has the plushy seats or the Boxer let's you pick up hot women at the beach. It's that you are able to move natively between a car you are perfectly familiar with and a car you've never used before because EVERY SINGLE DAMN CAR PRODUCED ON THE PLANET HAS THE BRAKE ON THE LEFT AND THE GAS ON THE RIGHT . Every single damn one, no exceptions. And yet all the "pro-choice" (pun intended) linux geeks who use car analogies seem to have no problem with the folks at GM and Honda deciding that there will be one particular convention for pedal layout. I haven't yet seen any posts on Slashdot decrying Chrysler for robbing American drivers of their ability to choose to have their steering wheel on the right side of the car. The reality of the computer world is that most rabidly pro-choice linux geeks gladly accept the benefits of pre-chosen standards regarding all sorts of things other than computers, but once something has RAM and a processor, consistency and standardization is considered a mortal sin.
All these comments about making "Free software pay?"
Charge $200 a pop for support questions to big corporates. I'm sure you'll do a better job than the M$ drones, and maybe you can use the spare cash to write more open source projects...
Then We'll all be happy...
Smid
I had nearly the same dilemma! I went with bash in the end, after a gruelling few months with csh. The GUI stuff is easy, choosing something as important as your shell... that's tough.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
It seems to me that the responses to this article can be summed up like this:
When I have a problem with a machine at work and they(work) pay the $200 to M$, they solve the problem, but when I try to get help for my Linux distro from IRC i get told to RTFM
Come on!! Get a grip on reality..If you are using Linux in a Commercial/Professional envioronment you would be a member of something like Redhat's RHN or similar..
If you need to you can get Tech Support from the Professional Distro Companies at a cost... Just like M$..
Just coz you're dicking around with Linux at home and you don't wanna pay anything, doesnt mean that good tech support for it does not exist....
If you go to IRC... you get an IRC solution... for M$ & Linux.... And you deserve the result
Burma?
No you're not.
When I tried zsh, I liked it sooo much that I spent a whole night reprogramming (and enhancing) my prompt.
Now it looks really good. If there was a zsh-prompt-howto I think I would submit it...
Besides, who said we *need* either Gnome or Kde ?
I remember the times when fvwm was the king of the hill. Right now, I use only a highly customized Enlightenment, and I pick the apps that I like, usually Konqueror and gvim.
The right tool for the right task, always...
-- don't discount flying pigs until you have good air defense
I must appologize in advance for this comment. It's late and I'm already over the edge.
/. story, or at least the /. brief is outright bullshit. I have never been this upset at a slashdot story. IT? Give me a ----ing break. My current university's computer science deparment (wtf is IT in the real word anyway but a tag for jerks who think that IT is, like, a way cool job, dude) relies on Linux day in a day out. 7 Dell linux server providing SSH access to hundreds of student for their assignments, websites, and so much more.
/. to get us riled up. I don't what CS students you are talking about but they should be round up and tortured by piping zsh into their brains.
I haven't read the article but this
The Math and CS labs all run linux and if you don't know how to use it... the answer is LEARN.
My last university where I was a Sys Admin was also heavily reliant upon Linux where all the servers for deparments (even linguistics for which no client applications exist) were all Linux servers. Profs and students alike were all very aware of Linux.
As limited as this comment is, I'm sure there are more like IT (pun darn well intended). Nothing like
I don't have any mod right now, so I'll just flame you.
Support services love stupid users like you. After all, they get paid 299 bucks for a problem which the user could have easily solved by walking through HOWTOs for 15 minutes or (heavens forbid) use a search engine to look for solutions.
So, buy paid support from SuSE here, ask your question and we'll see whether your answer will be "RTFM".
The zealots just don't get it.
Most of them just don't understand why they hate microsoft anyway.
Without microsoft, the majority of you probably wouldn't own a PC in the first place.
> These are not the system administrators (...) of tomorrow
yeah right
There's a general opinion (from my experience at least) that those monsters dubbed "IT Managers" typically see "free software" as meaning "no support"; and it's not always without justification. A lot of people in the IT industry consider more money to mean a better product - probably because they (naively) assume that some level support is paid for by the cost of the software - after all while someone is still using it, it has to be supported, yes?
Similarly, how many times have you grabbed some "open source" software only to find the web links are broken, the email addresses no longer valid or dependencies broken because version 1.1 interfaces were "improved" in 1.2 last week? More than a couple, I'd hazard. Admittedly, perhaps the more commercial companies are more reliable than small groups of hobbyists. On the other hand, Microsoft links are often broken - even in their own search engine, but they do offer alternative suggestions a lot of the time.
We're looking into some software at the moment which seems to have no documentation and what links there are appear to be broken. It's enough to make you give up and pay through the nose just for an easy life, and that's ultimately what it comes down to. Yes, people can be naive and some can be told to RTFM to solve their problem but if the FM isn't written in an easily understandable way (especially if you're just branching into a particular area), what can you do? A lot of people buy something and expect it to work out of the box. It's easier to make a phone call than get past the firewall, search for the IRC groups/newsgroups and attempt to get a decent answer without waiting several weeks.
Regardless of the whistles and bells on a product, you can guarantee that the area which can ALWAYS be improved on is the documentation and support.
The first step was to specify the assignment in number of words, 200 or 500 words instead of 1/2 page or 1 page. After that, it was sort of a carrot and stick thing.
Carrots:
- My web pages worked in their favorite browsers.
- The web was (still is) trendy.
Sticks:Use the office hours to find a way in which they are willing to try it and be prepared to meet them more than half way. If you make the experience convenient and useful, then they'll also tell they colleagues. But if you don't ask, you don't get.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
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I'm still working on a clever footer.
But its not up to the standard of the Psychic Friends Network
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
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I was never too keen about putting all your eggs in one basket. As a computer profesional, I consider my self a scientist or implementor of technology rather than a vendor whore. For example, I know a cisco guy who is probably the best Cisco Engineer I've ever met, BUT, he is not a slave to Cisco.He has an extremely broad range of networking protocols, and continues increasing his knowledge of "foreign" networking components. As well as myself, I know and use and administer 5 different UNICES, as well as Linux (SCO, AIX, Solaris, HP-UX and IRIX). To me MCSE's are like the guys who say "If I'm gonna get hit by a car, it BETTER be a Ford"
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
It makes me wonder if someone screwed up hiring her and maybe the DBA on her resume stood for something else.
Im in College right now and allthough a lot of people see Microsoft as better, everybody agrees that they dont give the best support.
Quote: 'Microsoft's technical support is the best in the industry and is superior to that offered by the Linux community.' This is sad. so very, very sad.
No wonder they think linux technical support sucks. I rang the college computer helpdesk about a problem with NT networking. Three months later, someone strolled into the office and said they were here to fix an NT computer. I nearly died laughing. Of course, we had managed to fix it ourselves along time ago...
I can just imagine ringing up the Helpdesk:
Q:
"Hi, I need the IP address of the college DNS servers to configure my redhat networking?"
A:
"Wow! They have windows running on Hats now aswell? Jeez, these microsoft guys are smart."
Bull shit! I had a computer before MS was in my conscious! The first time I heard the word Microsoft was using My Commodore Vic-20 and I saw Microsoft Basic in the manual! I've used Atari 800 XL's as well as Amigas and no..my first "mainstream OS" was NOT WIndows 3.1. I used my Amige til the end, when I discovered Linux in 93-94. And I dont think I'm the only one with similar experience.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
It seems obvious to me why IT undergrads would be more "in tune" with MS products. MS frequently makes deals with universities to have their products featured on university owned computers. My current function at the university I attend is tech support, and all that we support are MS products. All the public labs on campus have MS products only (except for the Macs, but they have MS Office on them anyways). There's even a MS student group, which gives away MS software, has MS programming contests and basically brainwashes a bunch of future IT people into the MS Mentality. Now don't get me wrong, I think that MS has a pretty good product base that works well (for the most part), but the lack of software diversity at many major universities is appalling!
http://www.foowack.net/
Funny, isn't that what the BSD crowd is accused of doing?
About a month or two ago, National Geographic of all people, did a write up on Silicon Valey and the software business there. It was very funny to turn big fluffy full spread M$ adverts to pages filled with real people doing real things with real computers that were visably running anything but M$. Not one M$ cripled box in the bunch, though it was not mentioned explicitly. The real world, it seems, knows better. Even the jocks who studdied rocks!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I graduated years ago and have been happily working in the MS centric world since then. My school seemed to have it in for MS. In school I had one professor who wouldn't let me use NT to do timing studies even though my desktop could accomplish the task much faster than the big UNIX box on campus and NT had 10x finer resolution when measuring time in a thread.
Imagine the following debate:
Undergrad: MS Ru13z!
Real World: Linux is stable.
None of the above matters!
People are going to use what works, and at the moment
Linux (Debian) works.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
Microsoft has all the trappings of technical support. Call this 1-800-number. We have operators standing by. We employ more programmers than any other PC software house. We advertise that we have support.
But the reality, when you really have a problem, is a less glitzy than the hype. Wait on hold unless you pay extra, be told to reboot, be told to reinstall the OS and apps in a new magic sequence, that it's a hardware maker that has the bad software driver, that the fix will be in the next Service Pack, etc.
Linux OTOH has very sketchy official sounding support. Sure, 1-800 numbers for some paid-for distros, but if you ask Linux users, the vast majority get help out of the bazaar.
And the surprising reality is just how successful such a support model can be. Someone in Germany with the same video card posted his XFree86 config file to Usenet. Go figure!
It's a strange difference. On one hand, being told that you have a designated and well-described support channel that practically turns out to be unsatisfying in many regards, and on the other hand, being told to stake your critical need for help and assistance on a to-be-determined random unidentified stranger in an amorphous mass of users that practically turns out to be more satisfying than you ever expected.
No wonder many people are confused.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
What would you do if somebody handed you a resume in TEX format. Hmm?
Heck what about postscript even?
You send them a notice you needed a Word formated document of course.
:) cheese!!!
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wonder what time i'll get to read the article
Real l33t Lunix users use Perl to generate their resume in a variety of different tasty flavours (http://davidrobins.net/Resume.{pl,pdf,txt,html,ps ,tex}; Output::RTF module to be finished RSN). I just got sick of updating several files in parallel, so did the "hacker" thing and produced a reusable, extensible solution.
czth
Just go to your local elementary school and ask any fifth grader what the Civil War was about.
"It's when the North saved the country and freed the slaves from the evil South." - and that's the mild version that you might hear somewhere in Mississippi.
When the truth of the matter is, when Lincoln said "United we stand, divided we fall" the "we" was referring strictly to those states which were on the North's side, as their federal government definitely would have fallen if they lost all of the revenue (something like 75%) from the Southern agriculture (89% of which was from poor white tenant farmers.)
Ok, I could talk about that all day, but the point is that kids get brainwashed in school at all levels to learn the particular ways of thinking that each education system wants them to learn. If you're in a class where the prof says something you don't beleive, but you want to get a good grade, then you don't stick your neck out because rarely do they encourage debate amongst what they profess to be facts. This is even more scary with younger kids though because when they're in school they want to do what's "right," and for them making the teacher happy is right, so if she says that Clinton ended the cold war and Reagan created the National Debt, the kids beleive her, and it trickles down into later life...
~ now you know
At least where I went to school, MS products where unspoken about, everything was Linux, BSD or Unix. All classes used Unix and all classes used Unix. No VB for us. And it couldn't have been better.
We recently participated in a program with PSU to hire IT students as interns. To make a long rant short, we found most of them inexperienced. I got the impression most of them were relying on the school to endow them with all the experience and knowledge they will need in the IT field. This just isn't going to happen. Particularly at a large school like PSU. However, we did meet a couple students that obviously experiment with alternative OS's and languages on their own. So, we hired them. A small company like ours doesn't have the time to remind interns what an SQL statement is, or to show them something other than "select * from .... " The schools should be able to teach at least enough so that their IT students that they can sound like they know a thing or two.
When I first started in the IT program, I had big hopes for learning USEFULL information. Instead what I got was the basics on how to browse web pages and alot of programming. While programming is important the University didn't offer any courses specificly related to the job of a sysadmin. Such as in depth useage of Linux, or even IIS. I dropped out feeling that relative work experience would be more benificial than a degree. I currently am employed at a law firm as the system administrator, and am doing very well for myself.
The dingo ate my sig.
Come on, now...I'll restrain myself from pointing out that MySQL isn't Linux, and...oh, wait...sorry about that...
* * *
It is a dada story -- it has no moral.
"Real world experience" be damned, these kids know what's going to net them the most money and job security -- the crappiest and most ubiquitous OS known to man. "All hail Gates, for whom we are about to kludge!"
I think there needs to be a seperation of IT undergrads. Out in the real world CS majors and MIS majors and CIS majors may all vie for the same or similar jobs... BUT.. their curriculums in undergrad institutions are governed many times by completely different schools of thought. Many CS departments I've seen (plus my own) are run my science and research oriented faculty and many times see unix/linux as a great learning tool to tear down the system and show their students how the stuff really is programmed. As for MIS departments (at least in my college) are usually under the school of business or at least have a tie with that school. This is a completely different school of thought from the Science or math proffessors. The business guys see Micro$oft as the big kid on the block you should get behind.. which they are in some respects.. but still either way. Many of these programs would naturally go toward microsoft products.. and programming. As far as when you get out into the real world.. hopefully you've learned enough to be able to deal with any of these situations and hopefully learn the specifics as you work.
Who makes you Sig?
I know too much about linux.
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
The slack' forums are a better technical resource than Microsoft's website and all those MCSE books.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Im sorry RTFM is not good tech support when you are a company andded an answer to an important question NOW. 1/2 the time the FM is either not there, not written or so badly written as to be useless. When I have attempted to go to irc or other places to get help sometimes i runinto nice ppl who can help or i run into @ssholes wo yell RTFM before i can even ask my question.
Want a good example? here are 2 simple questions.
1.Why will a ssytem using a buslogic pci scsi card boot the Mandrake 8.1 cd but fail to install?
2.Why does redhat [most current] contiualy fail to run X even though x worked out perfctly in the install? [looks to be some sort of fram buffer thing]
A friend paid the $45 because they couldn't get an example in the excel manual to work (they needed it for a group project). The answer was that excel couldn't do that, and the manual was wrong. No refund.
hawk
g
As if..
One thing I've been able to do is stump MS every time. Several times I've gotten the answer "our OS don't let you do that," and my superior's jaws would just drop! It's one of the reasons why we've had to chuck MS products in many applications.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
The lady asked me how much for three questions, and I told her, "$100."
"Isn't that outrageous?"
"Yes. Now what's your third question?"
hawk, esq.
So why choose to install either? You can still use the aplications that are linked to their libraries.
hawk
>they would get together, rationally and
>unemotionally select the most desirable features
>from each, and include them in the one
>frontrunning Linux desktop
But that's just not possible. Gnome exists for *religious* reasons, namely that KDE wasn't pure enough in the Holy GPL. Look for Catholicism and Lurtheranism as a single institution before Gnome and KDE (after 500 years, there is some progress [of course, that has the Missouri Synod upset, but that's another story .
The entire claim that KDE was in violation of the GPL was just plain nonsense. It wasn't true (though imported GPL code may have violated the GPL). It is not *possible* to violate your own license with your own work. KDE was not GPL, in spite of their protestations, but a Quasi-GPL, with an exception for libraries. Not because it said so, but becausethe law does that on its own.
hawk, esq.
in case you need that spelled out for you as well, nt means No Text in the message.
Yeah I had tech support tell me I couldnt Share a IP Printer under Windows 98..Told me that feature was only in 2000..But when I went to the network neighborhood and clicked on the printer--Worked like a chart... To MS Support--I say blow off! :) And that was after I paid for the support!
Nic Farley
i've failed my classes, but i'm doing more than decent in the real world. doesn't that say something abou the classes? i mean there were 2 junior and senior level classes that just taught VC++. and i dont' mean the algorithms or C++. i mean the IDE. sure makes you wanna think if the profs and the department get some sort of a kickback
While I am learning vim, I have used nano (a pico clone) a few times and I agree it is a better newbie editor. But I would recommend vi over emacs for a future sysadmin, since you're never going to fit emacs on a bare floppy, let alone Tom's Root Boot. Once learned, you can be productive in either, but if the iron won't boot, you'd better be able to use vi (or maybe nano / pico / joe).
Ross
test!
"mindless Visual Basic drones who couldn't program their way out of a paper bag, the schlocks who got all As but couldn't think on their toes to solve real problems. " Let me guess, they all made more money than you? You poor, downtrodden, suppressed soul! Instead of you shaking your fist at them behind their backs, why don't you get with the winning team? By the way, hacking out scripts in an obsolete language doesn't count as programming. I don't care if you sat there for 28 hours straight getting your gay ass crontab to run right, it still isn't programming! You can call yourself hardcore if you like though. A hardcore moron! Getting results in a very short time using VB/VC++, COM objects, ado data access, and IIS does count as development! What I am saying is you must not only solve a problem, you must solve it smartly! I've seen Linux idiots sit there for weeks optimizing scripts that run maybe 5 times an hour. YES WEEKS! No exaggeration! How fucking dumb is this? Great, you've saved 1/100 of a second in processing time per day using hundreds of hours in human labor! Good going, dumbass! "These are the future ineffectual middle-managers" Once again you show signs of jealousy at their great success.... those goddamn suit wearing non-doom playing guys who have self confidence, take showers and have beautiful wifes.. damn em all to hell! Let's say you have a problem. What are your options? Option one: fucking around with some god-awful technology (Linux, mysql, perl, whatever) for 8+ hours to make it very clever and using free software Option two: using Wintel RAD technologies and getting results in a few minutes Which do you think a company favors? I own my own company and I'll fucking tell you what I favor! Option 2! Yay, no more smelly self-important Linux nerds at my office! They just play doom all day if you don't hire someone to stand there and watch them! I realize compiling and installing Linux, chasing down modules, finding tar.gz files, and locating other crap trinkets on the Internet may be intellectually satisfying for you Linux guys. The future of software is development! By development I mean stringing together COM+ components to operate across .NET. There is no future in sociopathic doom players trying to locate a working FTP site to get the latest Kernel patch for some obscure reason!
But sometimes you just have to stop and think about what the quickest and most economically efficient solution would be is.
There are some very unique situations where Linux makes sense. But Linux users are so blinded by their hatred for Windows they cannot be trusted to decide when Linux is appropriate. All you can do with them is point to a terminal with a shell running and they will melt into it for 12 hours a day.
Get off your high horse, Linux and the entire open source movement just channels good potential VB coder talent into /dev/null. All it accomplishes is keeping teenagers living in their parent's basement's off the streets and entertained!
Bill Gates and his software empire gets results, you don't!
The backups are tested monthly with a full system restore on a test server in the lab.
However in the exchange incident, it couldn't mount the stores we pulled from backups after checking for consistency and attempting repairs.
The backups were fine, as was tested on another server. Exchange was just having problems -- It couldn't mount ANY store, not just our backups.
In the case of the Linux box we were restoring, just fine and dandy. We knew however if we could get an answer instead, we could get things back up and running then, and not wait for things to be pulled off of tape. 200GB at 40GB/hour is 5 hours. By calling IBM we were able to stop restoring and get things back running immediately, saving 4 1/2 hours. Granted we were restoring things as they needed to be (by importance), but it was still going to take time.
You problably don't even know how to maintain a runbook. Dipshit.
That means that they sent a kernel or library developer out to look at the problem. Accually that is the whole point of the 'debug box' the box gets installed and the developer can just debug it from their office over phone or internet. It basically just provides a control point when the machine is stopped at a breakpoint in kernel space. Linux has much the same functionality, only instead of shipping with every install like the kernel debugger in Nt/W2k/Xp does, it must be compiled in. If any of you accually did kernel developement you would know that _Linus_ is wrong, real developers use debuggers instead of just trying to guess what the problem is, fixing something and rebooting to try it out. Linus has even admitted once or twice to using a debugger.
As far as being closed source, sure thats a big problem when it comes to fixing kernel bugs. On the other hand, I have had to had fix a large number of linux kernel bugs. I don't think i've ever found a real kernel bug in NT. Even so, if I had, then I could probably have fixed it given enough time wandering around in the NT kernel debugger with the symbol set shipped in the DDK's. I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding assembly, especially the way the NT kernel is written. Compare a stack dump in linux with one that comes out of NT. The linux one is littered with unreadable symbols, while Nt has these wordy verbose descriptions, IoRegisterDriverReinitialization(), RtlQueryRegistryValues(), IoSetCompletionRoutine(), IoCallDriver() and KeWaitForSingleObject() kind of stuff.
Every, and I do mean EVERY time I've had a problem, it's been easily solved by checking the manual (which usually does the trick), or searching the web - mailing list archives in particular. I honestly don't know why people need techsupport anyways, if they can't get it working by themselves they shouldn't be sysadmins at all.
Go ahead, mod me down, I just had to get it out of my system...
Neither KDE nor Gnome are products: They are projects.