precisely the point. it isn't about your desktop client.
it's about the servers that enable trade at NYSE/AMEX/NASDAQ/whatever exchange; the boxes that process air traffic control; the processors running the power/traffic grids.
no offense, but there's rarely been a better opportunity for a wrath of khan reference: "captain, his tactics suggest two-dimensional thinking".
well, i wouldn't say that it failing to resemble a PDA necessarily makes it ugly, but yes, it certainly is. it looks vaguely like a simon (that's what that game is called) designed by someone who's read one too many ikea catalogs.
but this leads to an interesting question: what really is the ideal form factor for a PDA/phone? does it necessarily resemble something we've seen before? is the clamshell/ST: OS model the right direction?
the nokia designers appear to think that the compact CD player is a reasonable format but it's unwieldy, would be hard to hold to your ear for any period of time, and if you answer a phone too fast, you stand a chance of KOing yourself. i can just see it now:
[ring]
"doh!" [as owner accidentally smites self]
you know, i hope this thing is popular: maybe that way, my train ride will be quieter...
i was going to observe that generally speaking, that prohibition really should only apply to the area of a stage. then i remembered hamlet's line, that "all the world's a stage" and now can't help but agree.
it's the scottish play, darn it! although i do find it funny you rendered the proper name in a way analogous to the way jews render jehovah--
for pity's sake, you don't know what it's going to be like. LOTR freaks were wigging out when they first heard peter jackson was adapting it. they were terrified it was going to be an embarrassment and a flop.
it's garnered oscars, is by all accounts wildly successful commercially, and is probably the closest thing to a direct, word for word translation you could realistically expect from a film.
this reactionary rant is understandable, but i really think it's premature to make any assumptions.ed
"chinese culture is admirably focused off the individual, but it does so in an incorrect manner, which leads to poor results. i believe that you and i would both agree with it is an individual actions that deservce notice or emphasis."
you're correct in that we do agree, but as products of the one culture and not the other, i think it's a tad silly to extrapoliate meaning out of this particular convergence of opinion.
in both western and eastern cultures, i think hierarchies and groups play equally significant, if different, roles WRT the individual. however,
"the problem is that this leads to the sort of group-think that chinese have been historically more likely to follow than europeans and especially americans."
um...i'm sorry, perhaps this is simply my ignorance WRT what's going on in chinese culture and history, but what about mccarthy's red scare in the 50s, domino theory in the majority of the cold war, the preponderance of those accursed and godawfully ugly PT cruisers--oops, wrong rant topic--the current US tendency to excuse all government encroachments on civil liberties so long as it supports this nebulous "war on terrorism" which, as a war against an idea, is inherently doomed to failure...i won't go on, but i think that more or less gets the idea across.
now, what i was really challenging was in this block:
"i won't retract my accusation of chinese culture teaching bullying and cowardice. first, this is because i quote that straight from bo yang. but, it is true. the same thing used to happen in western armies (still does, but to a lesser extent). that is, with the removal of individual rights, those in power tend to take control. in order to avoid wrath of superiors (bullying), it's best to back down (cowardice). do this enough, and it becomes ingrained, as in chinese culture. this leads to stratification and a whole mess of other bad things."
clearly, you've studied chinese history and culture. i have not. you presumably have a basis from which you formed this conclusion. i have no illusions that in the course of 5000 years, humanity's great ignominies and triumphs would shine any any more or less brightly than in any other group's history of similar scope.
however, can you please give me an example or 2 of when this occurs/occurred in chinese history and then some evidence that this pattern repeated itself through the ensuing 5k years? perhaps i'm wrong: this could be and i always entertain that possibility. but on the off-chance you're in error, i think it's worth examining the facts of the matter.
sometimes you gotta hold your nose and keep working. codemonkeys are hard at work over in redmond, too, after all. if you're a developer in this market, are you sure you wanna leave a paying gig on somebody else's timetable rather than your own? i'm not a developer, but i certainly wouldn't.
i agree that this is probably not the wisest HR policy, but it's their company.
jeez, where to start...i think i'll take a cue from you and invert points. besides, it appeals to my sense of anal-retentiveness to follow suit.:D btw: thanks for the clarification re: "pure" chinese culture. that's what i thought you meant but wanted to be sure so i didn't proceed w/ an incorrect assumption.
firstly: when people start dismissing an entire culture, for whatever reason, i get really anxious b/c i often feel that's a precursor to some very hazardous slippery slopes. when you dismiss a culture, you lay the groundwork for dismissing its inhabitants. when you dismiss its inhabitants, well, examine any genocidal atrocity of human existence, whether it be deliberate (e.g., cultural revolution) or incidental (spanish conquistadors inadvertently conducting bio warfare against native south americans). people are products of their culture.
let me hasten to add that i am not saying you are in fact doing this, but your logic appears constructed in such a way as to make that conclusion significantly less difficult.
as to chinese culture teaching cowardice and bullying: sorry, but to me, this is silly. i can go into any culture and w/ sufficient research, find similar examples that could support such an assertion. the columbine shootings, the treatment by the catholic church of child-abuse accusers and accused priests up until the past few years, heck, even fraternity/sorority initiations: these all could serve as examples in US culture.
now, you and i both look at these counter-examples and laugh: that's clearly not the case here. but i submit that it's similarly inaccurate to say this of an entire culture.
chinese views of religion vs. "western" views of religion: this is a judgment call, b/c this requires that we assume that the western treatment of religion is somehow superior, and as theists and atheists have been debating this one for centuries, you'll excuse me if i think the matter is settled? besides, if you're talking western culture, you're really talking christianity and then we need to talk about which sect of christianity, although since we're talking historically, i'd argue the roman catholic church is probably the best candidate.
individual rights vs. group (family, community, etc). the west places a much higher value on the individual than the east and personally, i think there's a lot about the western approach that's way way off: leads to self-absorption and a preoccupation w/ self and hence selfishness. if a group is more than the sum of its parts, then some moderation b/n the emphasis on either group or individual is more reasonable.
overall, though, why are you comparing a single culture (chinese) against a compound culture (western)? that's a false comparison b/c w/ western culture, you can pick & choose national cultures as needed. IMV, this is absolutely not apples to apples. it's more like apple to cornucopia.
now that i've read your clarification, i see that you're informed on the topic and not some wacky bigot, although i would honestly have been hard pressed to recognize that just on the parent.
anyway, there's really 2 things you're talking about here, though, i think:
1. chinese government, which i think we can all agree needs to die and right quick. yes?
2. chinese culture. you're right that chinese culture is inherently introspective and xenophobic, as is the case in much of asia. you're also right that there is (generally speaking) greater weight accorded to tradition.
that being said: i don't agree w/ your assertion that western culture is necessarily more benevolent. certainly it's better at promoting those ideals we in the west hold dear, but then again, that's true of any culture. as to more benevolent, without qualifier? how would you define "benevolent"?
i should also point out that feudal china would have been hard-pressed to extend beyond its borders more than they already did (e.g., korean peninsula): the land was vast and largely homogenous. this is in significant contrast to the mediterranean and most of western euruope through which the roman empire spread. as a result, an apples: apples comparison to the roman empire is fraught w/ qualifiers that make such comparison problematic.
and, as the son of south korean immigrants to the US, i should point out that while certain western ideals are being adopted, it's overstating the case to say that's true across the board.
and i'm curious to know the basis behind your statement that pure chinese culture is worthless. you appear to base that on its lack of applicability to modern times (although the art of war springs to mind as a notable exception), that it "only teaches cowardice and bullying" and a generally higher regard for tradition than found in most western cultures. and i'm very curious how you define "pure chinese culture", for that matter.
OK, you'll accept that lorien is the first one, that the shadows can remain invisible to normal light, that both vorlons and the shadows can have living technology starships, but you can't accept that the drakh, long-time servitors of the shadows, couldn't engineer a plague cloud that can withstand atmospheric re-entry?
the drakh were basically the script kiddies of the b5 universe! to me, the astonishing thing is that it would take a whole 5 freaking years, but hey, YMMV.
while you're quite right re: OS-era klingons and samurai, post-OS era klingons are based on vikings. do a bit of research into the culture and it's pretty clear (note the status of music in klingon society).
secondly: the enterprise series premier featured a run-in w/ klingons. and i believe the previous season also included a klingon episode.
however, to the best of my knowledge they have not yet encountered romulans. no, just the annoying temporal cold war.
you seem to be suggesting that we "metatag" documents/files. this is actually a great idea, if you think about it.
unfortunately, the problems associated w/ creating such a system effectively and then diligently assigning the appropriate values to each and every document/file becomes prohibitive.
f'rex: let's take the example of pr0n. you could metatag based on area(s) of interest: e.g., b&d, lesbian, groups, etc. assigning the proper values would allow you to search for the ahem desired file.
however, if you want to implement such a system on an existing datastore, you've got a pretty daunting task ahead of you.
theoretically, something in the OS or search tool you're using could offer the option to assign the appropriate tags.
but then you run into some problems: what if something isn't [x] enough to be [x], but contains those elements? is minor [x] enough to get classified that way? do you need an integer value or something to describe just how [x] something is?
and this would hardly be universal: one person's art is another person's pr0n.
a lot of financial services companies blacklist webmail and accessing such a page is a violation of their acceptable usage policy, with penalties potentially including termination.
a lot of viruses are introduced into otherwise secure systems b/c a user opens an e-mail he or she shouldn't. in one such organization where i worked, the network was exposed either to nimda or code red through precisely such activity. the offending individual was, i believe, terminated.
this is a reference to the dungeons & dragons material, the player's handbook (see also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786928867/ qid=1062525078/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-8333805-50054 15).
see, the DRM is becoming such a weighty issue that it's threatening to break the books w/ which i prop up my PC.
Slashdot Mirror
precisely the point. it isn't about your desktop client.
it's about the servers that enable trade at NYSE/AMEX/NASDAQ/whatever exchange; the boxes that process air traffic control; the processors running the power/traffic grids.
no offense, but there's rarely been a better opportunity for a wrath of khan reference: "captain, his tactics suggest two-dimensional thinking".
ed
how about a -1 wrong instead? i mean, stupid could be a tad subjective, after all, but wrong is somewhat less so.
ed
well, i wouldn't say that it failing to resemble a PDA necessarily makes it ugly, but yes, it certainly is. it looks vaguely like a simon (that's what that game is called) designed by someone who's read one too many ikea catalogs.
but this leads to an interesting question: what really is the ideal form factor for a PDA/phone? does it necessarily resemble something we've seen before? is the clamshell/ST: OS model the right direction?
the nokia designers appear to think that the compact CD player is a reasonable format but it's unwieldy, would be hard to hold to your ear for any period of time, and if you answer a phone too fast, you stand a chance of KOing yourself. i can just see it now:
[ring]
"doh!" [as owner accidentally smites self]
you know, i hope this thing is popular: maybe that way, my train ride will be quieter...
ed
well, he missed his abraham moment in empire, didn't he? ah, well...
ed
to which i can only respond:
"there was no father"--shmi skywalker, TPM.
ed
i was going to observe that generally speaking, that prohibition really should only apply to the area of a stage. then i remembered hamlet's line, that "all the world's a stage" and now can't help but agree.
it's the scottish play, darn it! although i do find it funny you rendered the proper name in a way analogous to the way jews render jehovah--
[disappears under a hail of stones]
ed
or, indeed, a beowulf cluster of 'em...
OK, sorry; couldn't resist.
ed
and so did that dustbuster they broke out towards the end...
ed
for pity's sake, you don't know what it's going to be like. LOTR freaks were wigging out when they first heard peter jackson was adapting it. they were terrified it was going to be an embarrassment and a flop.
it's garnered oscars, is by all accounts wildly successful commercially, and is probably the closest thing to a direct, word for word translation you could realistically expect from a film.
this reactionary rant is understandable, but i really think it's premature to make any assumptions.ed
this is dead-on.
ed
stargoat quoth:
"chinese culture is admirably focused off the individual, but it does so in an incorrect manner, which leads to poor results. i believe that you and i would both agree with it is an individual actions that deservce notice or emphasis."
you're correct in that we do agree, but as products of the one culture and not the other, i think it's a tad silly to extrapoliate meaning out of this particular convergence of opinion.
in both western and eastern cultures, i think hierarchies and groups play equally significant, if different, roles WRT the individual. however,
"the problem is that this leads to the sort of group-think that chinese have been historically more likely to follow than europeans and especially americans."
um...i'm sorry, perhaps this is simply my ignorance WRT what's going on in chinese culture and history, but what about mccarthy's red scare in the 50s, domino theory in the majority of the cold war, the preponderance of those accursed and godawfully ugly PT cruisers--oops, wrong rant topic--the current US tendency to excuse all government encroachments on civil liberties so long as it supports this nebulous "war on terrorism" which, as a war against an idea, is inherently doomed to failure...i won't go on, but i think that more or less gets the idea across.
now, what i was really challenging was in this block:
"i won't retract my accusation of chinese culture teaching bullying and cowardice. first, this is because i quote that straight from bo yang. but, it is true. the same thing used to happen in western armies (still does, but to a lesser extent). that is, with the removal of individual rights, those in power tend to take control. in order to avoid wrath of superiors (bullying), it's best to back down (cowardice). do this enough, and it becomes ingrained, as in chinese culture. this leads to stratification and a whole mess of other bad things."
clearly, you've studied chinese history and culture. i have not. you presumably have a basis from which you formed this conclusion. i have no illusions that in the course of 5000 years, humanity's great ignominies and triumphs would shine any any more or less brightly than in any other group's history of similar scope.
however, can you please give me an example or 2 of when this occurs/occurred in chinese history and then some evidence that this pattern repeated itself through the ensuing 5k years? perhaps i'm wrong: this could be and i always entertain that possibility. but on the off-chance you're in error, i think it's worth examining the facts of the matter.
ed
sometimes you gotta hold your nose and keep working. codemonkeys are hard at work over in redmond, too, after all. if you're a developer in this market, are you sure you wanna leave a paying gig on somebody else's timetable rather than your own? i'm not a developer, but i certainly wouldn't.
i agree that this is probably not the wisest HR policy, but it's their company.
ed
so "patching your clothes" will have an entirely new meaning, i suppose.
;>
think of the new meanings to other expressions, though:
1. emperor's new clothes--windows security.
2. "threadbare"--you should really update the BIOS on that old concert jersey.
3. "flash"-anything--ick. or potentially, "oo", depending on the wearer...
ed
stargoat:
:D btw: thanks for the clarification re: "pure" chinese culture. that's what i thought you meant but wanted to be sure so i didn't proceed w/ an incorrect assumption.
jeez, where to start...i think i'll take a cue from you and invert points. besides, it appeals to my sense of anal-retentiveness to follow suit.
firstly: when people start dismissing an entire culture, for whatever reason, i get really anxious b/c i often feel that's a precursor to some very hazardous slippery slopes. when you dismiss a culture, you lay the groundwork for dismissing its inhabitants. when you dismiss its inhabitants, well, examine any genocidal atrocity of human existence, whether it be deliberate (e.g., cultural revolution) or incidental (spanish conquistadors inadvertently conducting bio warfare against native south americans). people are products of their culture.
let me hasten to add that i am not saying you are in fact doing this, but your logic appears constructed in such a way as to make that conclusion significantly less difficult.
as to chinese culture teaching cowardice and bullying: sorry, but to me, this is silly. i can go into any culture and w/ sufficient research, find similar examples that could support such an assertion. the columbine shootings, the treatment by the catholic church of child-abuse accusers and accused priests up until the past few years, heck, even fraternity/sorority initiations: these all could serve as examples in US culture.
now, you and i both look at these counter-examples and laugh: that's clearly not the case here. but i submit that it's similarly inaccurate to say this of an entire culture.
chinese views of religion vs. "western" views of religion: this is a judgment call, b/c this requires that we assume that the western treatment of religion is somehow superior, and as theists and atheists have been debating this one for centuries, you'll excuse me if i think the matter is settled? besides, if you're talking western culture, you're really talking christianity and then we need to talk about which sect of christianity, although since we're talking historically, i'd argue the roman catholic church is probably the best candidate.
individual rights vs. group (family, community, etc). the west places a much higher value on the individual than the east and personally, i think there's a lot about the western approach that's way way off: leads to self-absorption and a preoccupation w/ self and hence selfishness. if a group is more than the sum of its parts, then some moderation b/n the emphasis on either group or individual is more reasonable.
overall, though, why are you comparing a single culture (chinese) against a compound culture (western)? that's a false comparison b/c w/ western culture, you can pick & choose national cultures as needed. IMV, this is absolutely not apples to apples. it's more like apple to cornucopia.
ed
stargoat:
now that i've read your clarification, i see that you're informed on the topic and not some wacky bigot, although i would honestly have been hard pressed to recognize that just on the parent.
anyway, there's really 2 things you're talking about here, though, i think:
1. chinese government, which i think we can all agree needs to die and right quick. yes?
2. chinese culture. you're right that chinese culture is inherently introspective and xenophobic, as is the case in much of asia. you're also right that there is (generally speaking) greater weight accorded to tradition.
that being said: i don't agree w/ your assertion that western culture is necessarily more benevolent. certainly it's better at promoting those ideals we in the west hold dear, but then again, that's true of any culture. as to more benevolent, without qualifier? how would you define "benevolent"?
i should also point out that feudal china would have been hard-pressed to extend beyond its borders more than they already did (e.g., korean peninsula): the land was vast and largely homogenous. this is in significant contrast to the mediterranean and most of western euruope through which the roman empire spread. as a result, an apples: apples comparison to the roman empire is fraught w/ qualifiers that make such comparison problematic.
and, as the son of south korean immigrants to the US, i should point out that while certain western ideals are being adopted, it's overstating the case to say that's true across the board.
and i'm curious to know the basis behind your statement that pure chinese culture is worthless. you appear to base that on its lack of applicability to modern times (although the art of war springs to mind as a notable exception), that it "only teaches cowardice and bullying" and a generally higher regard for tradition than found in most western cultures. and i'm very curious how you define "pure chinese culture", for that matter.
ed
is that b/c they'd be running the new cockroach version of linux that's been EMP-hardened? :D
ed
OK, you'll accept that lorien is the first one, that the shadows can remain invisible to normal light, that both vorlons and the shadows can have living technology starships, but you can't accept that the drakh, long-time servitors of the shadows, couldn't engineer a plague cloud that can withstand atmospheric re-entry?
the drakh were basically the script kiddies of the b5 universe! to me, the astonishing thing is that it would take a whole 5 freaking years, but hey, YMMV.
ed
OK, firstly:
while you're quite right re: OS-era klingons and samurai, post-OS era klingons are based on vikings. do a bit of research into the culture and it's pretty clear (note the status of music in klingon society).
secondly: the enterprise series premier featured a run-in w/ klingons. and i believe the previous season also included a klingon episode.
however, to the best of my knowledge they have not yet encountered romulans. no, just the annoying temporal cold war.
[grumbles]
ed
the unaired episodes will purportedly be included to boot.
hm...november is gonna be a real expensive month, DVD-wise...
ed
c'mon, the parent deserves to be modded +1 funny...
ed
you seem to be suggesting that we "metatag" documents/files. this is actually a great idea, if you think about it.
unfortunately, the problems associated w/ creating such a system effectively and then diligently assigning the appropriate values to each and every document/file becomes prohibitive.
f'rex: let's take the example of pr0n. you could metatag based on area(s) of interest: e.g., b&d, lesbian, groups, etc. assigning the proper values would allow you to search for the ahem desired file.
however, if you want to implement such a system on an existing datastore, you've got a pretty daunting task ahead of you.
theoretically, something in the OS or search tool you're using could offer the option to assign the appropriate tags.
but then you run into some problems: what if something isn't [x] enough to be [x], but contains those elements? is minor [x] enough to get classified that way? do you need an integer value or something to describe just how [x] something is?
and this would hardly be universal: one person's art is another person's pr0n.
ed
a lot of financial services companies blacklist webmail and accessing such a page is a violation of their acceptable usage policy, with penalties potentially including termination.
a lot of viruses are introduced into otherwise secure systems b/c a user opens an e-mail he or she shouldn't. in one such organization where i worked, the network was exposed either to nimda or code red through precisely such activity. the offending individual was, i believe, terminated.
ed
this is a reference to the dungeons & dragons material, the player's handbook (see also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786928867
see, the DRM is becoming such a weighty issue that it's threatening to break the books w/ which i prop up my PC.
read some dilbert.
ed
lee did an interview a number of years ago and answered that very question: yes.
i'm not sure whether it's more embarrassing that there is an answer or that i know it...
ed
my guess is it's a weird holdover of the days when CS was considered the domain of mathematics departments.
:D
that, or CS people deciding to add even more jargon to otherwise perfectly comprehensible sentences.
ed