Slashdot Mirror
Stan Lee: The Rise and Fall of The American Comic Book
If you don't know who Stan Lee is, you will have little to no interest in this book. But who are we kidding? Any geek worth his or her metal knows Stan "The Man" Lee, the co-creator of Spider-man, The Hulk, The Fantastic Four and countless other beloved Marvel Comics characters. What most people don't really know is the real story behind the creation of these characters. Many have never heard of the artists Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, who contributed a great deal to the creation and development of these superheroes. In the past years a bit of a rift has formed in comics fandom, the hard-core siding with the late Kirby, claiming that Lee and Marvel did the artist wrong. The other side blithely backs the amiable Lee. Through interviews with artists, family members and Stan Lee himself, Spurgeon and Raphael try to shed some light on the subject.
Anyone who's read Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay will notice a great deal of similarities between Stan Lee's origins and the fictionalized settings Chabon created for his book. Both stories start in the time of the pulps, when publishers cranked out fantastic publications by the truck-load. The parallels are fascinating. If you're a comic book fan and you haven't read Chabon's book, you need to read it.
Anyway, the book I'm supposed to be reviewing tracks Stan Lee's star from his position as a lowly writer at Timely Comics, to the editor behind the most famous run of comic books in history; Marvel's Silver Age comics. This is when the Fantastic Four, Spider-man and The Hulk were born. The book doesn't stop there. It follows Lee through the decades detailing his involvement with the Marvel titles all the way. It examines his rocky relationship with Hollywood and decades of attempts to bring Marvel characters to life on television or in the movies. Even more fascinating are the segments of the book that deal with Stan Lee Media and the enormous financial flame-out that occurred when the business went sour.
The book paints Lee in a very humanistic light. It brings his flaws into sharp contrast and at the same time gives him credit for his amazing accomplishments, unceasing drive and wild imagination. Most interesting is the way the book tells the story of all comics in the context of Marvel and Lee's story. As much as underground geniuses such as R. Crumb or Art Spiegelman must hate the association, it's hard to argue that the fates of all comics are influenced by Marvel's gravitational pull.
There's been a mild knee-jerk reaction in the comics community that the book is blatant attack on Lee, being that both Spurgeon and Raphael both worked at The Comics Journal, a publication that has publicly supported Jack Kirby's claims against Lee. To be fair, the authors put an exceptional amount of work into trying to tell the truth, which is reflected in the sheer number of annotated resources they've provided in the book's source notes.
In all seriousness, try to forget for a moment that I'm friends with the authors. As a lifelong comics reader I found the information presented in this book fascinating. It made me want to run to my comics shop and buy reprints of the old issues. Don't take my word for it, though.
There are several excerpts of the book available online. You can read the prologue at the book's official website. Part of Chapter 17, "Stan in Hollywood" is excerpted at The Comic's Journal's website."
You can purchase Stan Lee: The Rise and Fall of The American Comic Book from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
at ISBN.nu
Manga tend to last a certain amount of time and then end. They don't frequently switch writers and/or artists. Popular stories are not necessarily stretched and reinvented in order to increase sales. (This point is arguable. There were 37 volums of Ranma 1/2 IIRC.) Artists are treated as talents rather than commodities.
Who reads and sells more comic books than any other nation in the world?
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Now I know who I am.. hmm..
There are two kinds of egotists: 1) Those who admit it 2) The rest of us
Is the Things 'thing' made of rock as well?
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
...on Slashdot? You are new arround here right?
Have there actually been other books about comic books, I must be out of the loop on this one.
i'm going to kill one kitten a day and shove it in Stan Lee's mailbox until he brings back the X-Force
All it takes to fly is to hurl yourself at the ground... and miss. -Douglas Adams
well, we can pretend that they never made The Hulk. After all, they're acting as if the original Punisher was never made with the coming release of The Punisher
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
Shouldn't Spiderman be prounounced more like Goldman? What I mean is not saying it like it's two words (Spider Man).
Then again, we should have a superhero called GoldMan (Gold Man)! That would kick ass! Why didn't Stan Lee think of that?
I remember reading some potshots the two were taking at each other back in the mid-80s. It was stupid then and it's stupid now. It was a collaborative creation -Lee readily admits he just wrote outlines of the comics, let Kirby draw them and then added dialogue afterward. Lee will be dead soon and Kirby is already gone, so how about leaving it be?
Talk about your tempest in a teapot.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
...that was NOT the
Worst review ever. </comic book guy>
'Nuff said.
..the guy on the Simpsons who tried to stuff an Incredible Hulk into some poor kid's Batmobile, thereby breaking it?
Bastard.
Between Diamond killing off independents by making them IMPOSSIBLE to get distributed and the basic stigma behind comics books, the only thing that wil truly re-invigorate comics is the internet and reinventing the distribution method.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
clap, clap, clap.
Yes, I'm sure this autobiography of Stan Lee is far more important than such wortless books as Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics and Reinventing Comics. NOT.
"But why did he allways have to only make violent charcters like Spiderman and the Hulk? These series are not very approriate for kids."
Could it be that he wasn't creating with children in mind?
I truly fear the day when artists are mandated to create only those works which are 'kid-friendly'.
lee did an interview a number of years ago and answered that very question: yes.
i'm not sure whether it's more embarrassing that there is an answer or that i know it...
ed
As Mark Evanier (once Jack Kirby's Assistant) said "Well, it's safe to say Jack did all the pencilling. Beyond that, we run into all sorts of semantic arguments having to do with definitions of the word "writing" and with the fact that Mssrs. Lee and Kirby both have/had notoriously poor memories. You also have the fact that, when two creative talents get together and come up with an idea, each of them might honestly believe that he suggested at least the core of the concept if not the entire thing. This happens in any collaboration anywhere and, ultimately, you usually have to just say that they both had the idea. Ergo, I say that the Lee-Kirby creations are Lee-Kirby creations."
I think that quote says it all--except for the fact that Stan Lee created/inspired a whole generation of HUMANISTIC superheroes--ones with flaws, foibles and problems that were not outweighed by ultra-human abilities. Peter Parker was still somewhat introverted and Geeky, Stephen Strange was still an alcoholic and somewhat arrogant, Ben Grimm had self-esteem problems relating to his appearance. The list is Endless.
Stan Lee and Marvel Comics brought us some of the greatest comics and heroes. Thanks Stan!!
In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c
It always amazes me how few comics you find in the US compared to walking into any book store, news-agency, or grocery store in continental Europe.
no text, dammit!
The "most important book ever to be written about the subject of comic books" is Understanding Comics.
It's in comic book (more accurately, a graphic novel (even more accurately, graphic nonfiction)) form, which is the right medium to actually describe the craft.
We have a book review written by a friend of the authors of the book it reviews, and furthermore the authors of the book it reviews have taken public stances against the subject of the book?
Well, hell, in that case, David Manning said the book was "The most intriguing study of comic books ever written".
Philip Sandifer's academic website
Holy crap! I suggest you immediately step away from the computer screen, pack a bag, and move out of your parents' basement.
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
I know he's dead, but it'd be cool to include relevant artwork.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
When you've been raised reading belgo-french heavy-metal comics, and as you grow-up, see the same character take on adult stories (and I mean with explicit, graphic sex), it's no wonder that american comics don't look too exiting.
Thanks to the rampant Anti-Semetism in Europe, the title had to be changed from Spiderman to Spider-Man.
Alan Moore and his Watchmen, Neil Gaiman's Sandman as well as Frank Miller's Sin City> and the psychotic Batman.
I really wish comics were more popular than they are in America. The reasons why have been hashed out ad nauseum but I think it boils down to a bad stereotyped image ... that comics are for kids and mostly center around superheroes in spandex, muscles, with a hugely breasted babe on each arm. It's because companies like Marvel and DC saturate the market with their corny superhero escapades, leading people to assume that's all comics can be and all they're about.
There's a lot of great stuff there, but in order to truly break through the aformentioned kiddie / funny / superhero / alienated loser stereotype something more mainstream and substantial needs to come out of the comics world. My primary gripe is not about the art. The art is great and wonderful things are being done every day. It's the subject matter and the writing.
The handful of comics folks I really admire these days are Chris Ware, Posy Simmonds and Dan Clowes. Chris Ware's stuff transcends narrative and writing. Posy Simmonds' "Gemma Bovery" is a re-telling of Madame Bovery with a really complex merging of novel and art. It doesn't look that great at first but there's subtle patterns to when it lapses into comic and back to novel. Dan Clowes I mention because he's done comics that read more like films and his latest 8ball, frankly, blew me away with it's genere hopping and Altmanesque interweaving story lines.
I've been hopeful as of late as finally we got to see Ghost World, American Splendor, heck even Road To Perdition which are great examples of films based on comics that do not have the aforementioned superhero complex. For better or worse, it's hard to tell they in fact were comics to begin with. Now don't get me wrong, I still enjoy X-Men and Hulk, but I don't think these films are doing anything to break down the stereotypes of what comics are.
Frankly, we need more boundry-breaking artists than Stan Lee, who keeps rehashing the same old archetypes. Otherwise we'll just continue with the situation we have now, where comic book stores go under, fewer people can make a living at it, and the comics section is delegated to some far corner of the bookstore near the porno mags...
I'm sorry, but the Slashdot editors need to improve their criteria for reviews. With some prodding, I think the author of this review could've written a fine review, but this is just mediocre.
What I'd really like to understand the dynamics of the stigma attached to comic books--the stereotype that they're artless, pulpy, and read by pimply teenaged males. I know this stigma isn't applied as much by elitist types to the work of people like Art Spiegelman. But as an artistic/literary venture, I think comics are still scoffed at more than they should be. This is probably why most of the recent movie adaptations lose the essential tensions and Cold War backdrop of the classic Marvel comics and become big SFX spectacles. I think understanding this stigma could also help people aspiring to create video/computer games that can be described as artistic.
Does anyone have thoughts on this? I'd especially like to hear from people who are involved in the debates described in the review and people with good knowledge of comic book history.
Online citizen journalism from the inner city: The View From The Ground
Something I observe with comics is the constant looking back on the characters creation. To the general public (at least), the story of the characters creation is the most important, definitive dimension of the character.
Spider man was bitten by a radioactive spider. The Hulk was shot with Gamma rays. These are all examples of the basic knowledge most individuals have about comic book characters.
I know it is proper story-telling to introduce characters and dramatize again and again their beginnings or history, but with comics it seems to be a big thing to recreate the character (even if in the same vein) every so often (usually in another medium I guess).
While this brings new readers and maybe reminds current readers of why they enjoy the comic, I wonder if it discourages the developement of the character (i.e. a change that redefines the character and is generally unreversable or undefiable, even in the comic book world).
I'm not saying characters don't change, but it seems when it comes down to it, the characters are always in the shadow of their original creation. I don't if this mirrors real life or not (though one could suppose so in most cases).
Affiliate-free link for price searches
.sigs with affiliate links, just to keep Amazon thinking it's a good idea.
Why FP with a link that bypasses Slashdot's BN link? Whether you're a fan of the editorial staff or not (and since you're here, they must be doing something right), you've got to agree that they've got certain non-zero expenses to cover, such as massive bandwidth. Otherwise, Slashdot would Slashdot Slashdot (/././.)!
If you're going to post an alternative purchase link, at least make it benefit someone we know -- even if it's you. I make it a point to click
Besides, it's hardly accurate to say that ISBN.nu is an "affiliate-free link". It's informative, but each of the links given appears to be an affiliate link. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not "affiliate-free" -- it's just funneling the money to someone other than CmdrTaco.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Where did you see Republican?
The proper use of the phrase is worth your "mettle" not "metal."
Revemnge of the English Majors . . .
I just finished reading this book and it's wonderful. I don't have time (or will) to write a full review, but if you've any interest in comic books or in very good historical fiction, I'd suggest picking up a copy
I'll take your word for it.
A related Jew joke by Jon Stewart
Will I retire or break 10K?
Let's not overgeneralize the geeks & comic books thing, okay? I read a few when I was a kid, but have no interest at all now.
geez. subliteracy at its best.
I'm an Anti-violence Republican and I'm gay. Not only that, I'm pro-enviroment. So there :P
How's the public school system working out for you? Got your liberal indoctrination going?
Incidentally, it's "you're", not "your". Please learn the difference.
Geekmetal, your name is Adamantium
My other sig is extremely clever...
doesn't look like robbIE et AL wants to be any part of it. not enough monIE/eyegas? whatever.
.asp on that. when the lights come up, there'll be no going back, & no where to hide.
from a previous unfairly moderated PostBlocked(tm) comment:
gnu millennium spells doom for stock markup frauds (Score:-1, Troll)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 29, @09:17AM (#6823303)
that's right. J. Public et AL has yet to become involved in open/honest 'net communications/commerce in a meaningful way. that's mostly due to the MiSinformation suppLIEd buy phonIE ?pr? ?firm?/stock markup FraUD execrable, etc...
truth is, there's no better/more affordable/effective way that we know of, for J. to reach other J.'s &/or their respective markets.
the recipe is:
consult with/trust in yOUR creator. vote with yOUR wallet. more breathing. seek others of non-agressive intentions/behaviours. that's the spirit.
use key words/indexing to identify yourself/your products.
the overbullowned greed/fear based phonIE marketeers are self eliminating by their owned greed/fear/ego based evile MiSintentions. they must deny the existence of the power that is dissolving their ability to continue their self-centered evile behaviours.
as the lights continue to come up, you'll see what we mean. meanwhile, there are plenty of challenges, not the least of which is the planet/population rescue (from the corepirate nazi/walking dead contingent) initiative.
EVERYTHING is going to change, despite the lameNT of the evile wons. you can bet your
we weren't planted here to facilitate/perpetuate the excesses of a handful of Godless felons. you already know that? yOUR ONLY purpose here is to help one another. any other pretense is totally false.
pay attention (to yOUR environment, for example). that's quite affordable, & leads to insights on preserving life as it should/could/will be again. everything's ALL about yOUR motives.
take care, we're here for you.
as for va lairIE/robbIE et AL, & their disgusting need to suck up to their corepirate nazi sponsors buy use of manipulation/censorship. they are their owned reward eye gas.
mr auerbach seems like a decent sort. icann see how he would be somewhat discouraged.
Worth his mettle, dammit!
Sorry. Couldn't stand it.
"Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer." - Linux Advocac
He didn't just bring us muscle-bound freaks who solve every problem with violence. He also brought us "Howard the Duck", and the immortal phrase "sorry honey, but I don't date outside my species!"
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
While it is always dangerous to assume that a Slashdot reviewer actually knows what they're talking about, the review does present me with several reasons I might not want to read the book:
1. Calling Marvel's Silver Age comics "the most famous run of comic books in history" is a highly subjective and arguably mistaken statement. More famous than the early years of DC, with Batman and Superman? I don't think so.
2. While I have no objection to a book about Stan Lee per se, calling it The Rise and Fall of The American Comic Book suggests a rather serious overreach. The fact is that the decline in the quality of Stan Lee's Marvel stable happened at the same time of perhaps the most impressive ferment in comics and graphic novels in history, i.e. the mid-to-late 1980s, a renaissance lead by a handful of exceptionally influential DC titles (especially Alan Moore's Watchman, Frank Miller's Dark Knight, and Neil Gaiman's Sandman), together with a number of important independent comics (Dave Sims' Cerebus, etc.).
3. The review does not mention it, but the true "Fall of the American Comic Book" occured in the mid-1990s due to largely economic circumstances, i.e. the collapse of the speculator market and a disasterous consolidation of comic distribution companies set in motion by Marvel's decision to make Heroes World their sole distributor. (I published an article by Paul T. Riddell on this very subject in the Fall/Winter 2000 isssue of Nova Express, but there are also several online summaries of those events you can Google.) The fact that the book focuses on Stan Lee, and that the review makes no mention of this (an event quite apart from the Dotcom-like collapse of Stan Lee Media) makes me fear that this book either gives a very distorted view of this economic cataclysm, or no view at all.
That is not to say that it might not be interesting to Stan Lee fans. But Stan Lee != American Comic Books, no matter emblamatic his work may have been in the 1960s.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
This is probably the most biased review I've ever read. Somebody should be ashamed to write it even in a press release. It is the most important book about commics just for the authors and their friends, or if you think Marvel is really important in comic book history.
In the realm of comic books, sequencial graphic storytelling, Marvel and DC just publish a very limited set of themes: collant-dressed-anabolised-fantastic-powers heros. Comic books are a much richer form of art than this, see Moebius, Alan Moore, Crumb, Will Eisner and a lot of others.
If you really want the best book ever written about comics, read Scott Mccloud seminal Understanding Comics.
"an unbiased review of [sic] a the most important book ever to be written about the subject of comic books, or any subject for that matter." Haha, "unbiased review," my arse! You destroyed your credibility with these few words before I could even read your shill of a review. Which I didn't.
Sure, Marvel went bankrupt a while back, but that's because they were headed Ronald Perelman, a so-called "turnaround specialist," who actually behaves much like the executives of SCO, whom we love so dearly. He pumps up stock prices, issues junk bonds, then bails and lets the company crater. As a brief aside, he now heads Revlon, which is trading around $3 per share.
Sure, I suppose if one were writing a book in the midst of Marvel's bankrupcy, one would be tempted to write a book called The Rise and Fall of American Comics, but in fact that was an artificial situation, and the industry has recovered quite well since then.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I see you've missed a lot of Disney movies. Either that, or your mind blocked them out because they conflict with the standard "Disneys gone to shit" mantra that you seem to have adopted.
... what lead good ol' Stan to plunge into cheap, two-bit pornified cartoons on cheap, two-bit cable stations. Seriously. What was possessing the man? Or is that tail saved for the sequel "Stan Lee: The Rise and Fall of Cheap Cable Cartoon Trash"?
"As far as I'm concerned, the last piece of quality put out by Disney was "The Lion King" and that was full of violence. (btw, Nemo doesn't count ... Disney paid for it, but Pixar created it)."
And even that borrowed liberally from a certain japanese cartoon, though disney would never admit it. ( there is debate on both side of this however )
and disney nicked lion king from japan. that's
yer mickey mouse stealing as much as she can.
the most important book ever to be written about the subject of comic books
Most would probably say that honor belongs to "Comics and Sequential Art" by Will Eisner.
I also would highly recommend "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud.
Is that the spin of the reviewer, or of the book's authors?
Granted, the shitty writing of the stanlee.net 'webisodes' probably would have guaranteed the implosion of the company sooner or later, but before that could happen Stan's cofounder and one of the company execs ran the company into the ground by way of a stock scam.
Stan Lee Media was one of the last hurrahs of the dot com era... I worked there for six months, and managed to cash out my unused vacation and leave about a month before everyone in the company got laid off (right before christmas, that was). I should have known better when I went for my interview; the office was decorated entirely with leftover junk from the failed Marvel Restaurant at Universal Citywalk from a few years before that.
Such as Bone, Cerebus, Ghost in the Shell, and so forth, you'll see that Marvel is the AOL of comics.
I think I will wait for the movie adaption of this book. We will see what CGI can do with Stan.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Does the book explain how Iceman travelled? As far as I can tell a stream of water shot out of his hand and froze instantly in what just happened to be a perfectly smooth track that was strong enough to support him no matter how long it got. And he always managed to have enough momentum to slide along it, was this momentum an undocumented feature of his power?
Drill baby drill - on Mars
"Oh, Beneficent Deities Who smile down upon our bandwidth and HTML, please don't make the posting of completely counter-productive and useful-to-no-one "non-affiliate links" assume the same popularity with the /. High School set as "registration free" links, "Soviet Russia" Jokes, "Obligatory" anything, and Subject lines consisting solely of the words "One Word." Let us grow together into maturity, with the realization that even a site catering to the rants and tirades of pseudo-socialist geeks still has to make a buck somehow. Give us the discipline not to try and undermine every commerce-oriented Internet endeavor we stumble across, and the wisdom to find where our energies might be directed to stimulate Growth rather than Anarchy."
Amen.
You are laboring under the common misconception that comic books are for children. Comic books, like most periodicals, usually aim at adults. Stan Lee has been a long time social commentator, by his own statement in other interviews. Much of the material he wrote or supervised deals with politics or social problems.
Marvel released the first "out of the closet" gay character in the early/mid 90's and almost lost their sanction through the Comics Magazine Association of America. Later, they abandoned the code.
http://brian.carnell.com/articles/2001/07/0 00007.html
The point is, Marvel, and, to a certain extent, any comic that isn't "Disney" type material, gets its relevence by taking the real world and playing "what-if".
-------------------------
As easy as herding cats!
that would have been Steve Gerber, who created HtD...I doubt Stan had anything to do with the movie though
McCloud focuses on timing, transitions, and the industry. It's not an easy read, even though it's written as a comic book. McCloud demonstrates by statistical analysis that US comics, underground or mainstream, all have roughly the same transition structure, while manga has totally different statistics.
After those, it's all fanboy stuff.
Now that about sums it up
mettle ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mtl) n. Courage and fortitude; spirit: troops who showed their mettle in combat. Inherent quality of character and temperament. metal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mtl) n. Abbr. M Any of a category of electropositive elements that usually have a shiny surface, are generally good conductors of heat and electricity, and can be melted or fused, hammered into thin sheets, or drawn into wires. Typical metals form salts with nonmetals, basic oxides with oxygen, and alloys with one another. An alloy of two or more metallic elements. An object made of metal. Basic character; mettle. Broken stones used for road surfaces or railroad beds. Molten glass, especially when used in glassmaking. Molten cast iron. Printing. Type made of metal. Music. Heavy metal.
Just look at Stripperella... insulting, retarded, etc... Stan Lee is the only one responsible for crap like that. The voice acting is terrible, to boot. Let's hope it doesn't last past the first season.
The Lion King: Scar is ripped apart by Hyenas.
The Huntchback of Notre Dame: The villain falls from the Notre Dame Cathedral (falling damage)
Beauty and the Beast: falling damage again, this time with Gustan from the Beast's castle.
The Rescuers Down Under: Falling damage again, from a waterfall (and the villain takes 2 crocadiles with him).
All of these would actually be a pretty messy way to go (although the falling damage ones would be a quick death, when the villain hits).
Though, on an unrelated note, no Disney female villains have ever been killed. Cruella DeVille survives, mostly unharmed, a car wreck that would normally kill a person. Likewise with the villain from the original "The Rescuers".
Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
So it's the most important book ever written, but if I don't know who Stan Lee is, I won't care?
I was so ready to buy the hyperbole, and then you just shot me right down, didntcha.
The Watchmen, Sandman, Sin City . . . I've got 'em all (in comic book format)
m
You should check out the the Sandman Companion. It came out a few years ago, and covers the entire run of the Sandman, offering interviews with Neil Gaiman and others, and provides an excellent analysis of the BEST comic book series ever. Anywho, there is section in the book where Gaiman discusses the stigma attached to comic books. He recounted the story of when he was introduced to a person at a party. When the person asked him what he did for a living, he replied that he wrote comic books. Ther person acted like he just cut a fart in an elevator, but out of politeness, asked if he wrote anything that he might have read. When he told the gentleman that he wrote the Sandman, the guy became excited and said something like "Good lord! you're Neil Gaiman!. You don't write comic books, you write graphc novels." Gaiman compared it to being called a lady of the evening instead of a prostitute.
I have been a comics reader for many years but I must admit that I have never read any of Stan Lee's Silver Age Comics. I have always assumed that they were well written stories. I recently read his team-up with DC comics to created an Elseworld style retelling of the origins of DC characters called Just Imagine Stan Lee Creating the DC Universe that threatened that assumption.
I was surprised to discover it was the worst comic book writing I have ever read. The stories were week and uninteresting and the dialogue was the most stereotypical comic book trash I had ever read. The most aggravating part was that he felt the necessity to describe and explain everything that was going on with dialogue, even though all of it was completely obvious from the (mostly) exceptional artwork.I am now not sure if I want to read the Silver Age Marvel comics for fear of his writing. Has his writing always been this bad, or did he lose his edge?
The thing about Japanese comics is not that they tend to follow a logical story but more that they just don't really fit into one definition of "This is what comic books have to be about." Japanese comic books cover the whole spectrum of genres and storylines, much like comics used to be in America. Japanese comics have short-attention-span theater just like American comics.
If you want more than generalizations, then a used copy of Understanding Comics by McCloud will be much more informative than any Slashdot blurbs.
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
it had the violence and edgy themes for a cartoon. All the early Disney creations had adult themes and what made them classics is how those themes related to children. I saw Lion King as a kid, it made me think about life in general, something that watching tellitubies would never do. The reason most of the recent Disney movies are poor sellers is because they are too cutesy and cuddly; parents find them boring, kids are embarrased to watch them with their friends, etc.
Though, on an unrelated note, no Disney female villains have ever been killed. Cruella DeVille survives, mostly unharmed, a car wreck that would normally kill a person. Likewise with the villain from the original "The Rescuers".
Uh? I guess the witch queen in Snow White doesn't count? What happens to Ursula in little mermaid (that one I don't remember, I can't seem to find the DVD).
I'm a recent Disney movie expert (I have a 2.5 year old at home).
A great book that captures the spiritual and creative essence of comics (if not historically-accurate detail), is The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay by Michael Chabon, the author of "Wonder Boys".
It is a story about the golden age of comic books (1940's-ish) in New York City. Real comic artists and writers are oft-mentioned as part of the backdrop, but the main characters of the book are fictional. Fascinating read.
Kind of off-topic, but if the article drew you in, you'll likely find much to enjoy in "Cavalier".
funny
You mean the book that was actually mentioned in the review? Thanks for stopping by. Now go home.
I wish Timothy and Michael would put the same disclaimer on every article they post.
If you read my post, you should have noticed that I was in no way commenting on the violence in Disney movies or the lack thereof.
Ever since that phat-ass, gut-hanging character with long pony tail (can't remember his name) on the simpsons started worshipping comic, everyone created this stereotype. Where people who read comic books are star trek geeks with less life than a corpse.
In reality comic books provide a channel where not just artists, but regular people may be able to produce ideas on cheap paper to the masses.
"Lets just say, Stan Lee's mind is in less then mint condition"
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Incorrect.
Snow White: The Wicked Queen falls down a cliff and dies.
Little Mermaid: Ursula is pierced through the heart with a large sailing ship. Aside: in the Little Mermaid Two, Morgana, Ursula's sister, refers to this. "Now why couldn't dear Ursula attend? Oh, yes, I remember, it's because YOU ALL SISH-KEBOBED HER!' Morgana, at the end of the story, is imprisioned in a block of ice.
Disney's Atlantis: Helga Sinclair dies, after being betrayed and thrown off of an airship, and she tries to take said airship, and it's crew, with her. Note that we also see such wonderful things as the beating death of a king. One of the better Disney movies, with a concious effort not to include any cute anthropomorphic animal sidekicks.
Those are some that I can think of off the top of my head, at least.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Agreed that Disney Corp is the embodiment of evil, but Mulan and Lilo & Stitch were, at least, good (and surprise, weren't copies of old anime classics).
I also liked Atlantis, although it's not up to par probably.
Much more important that Lord of the Flies, The cathcer in the Rye, Farinheight 451, Old man and the sea, or The great gatsby. Why read all those words without any pictures? Why think, when you can ... make stuff go boom?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
the minute he said it was the most important book ever written on any subject...ever.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighhhhhhttttt....
Clearly, someone has spent too much time living in his mother's basement.
... a "Woody!"
Oh my, now look what you made me do!!!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
The genre needs some more great works ... I mentioned in another thread how the industry needs it's own "harry potter" or "sims". Look at how harry potter singlehandedly revitalized the whole children's books arena. Who would have thought kids would be reading books of all things, before Harry Potter?
Right now all the comics industry has going for it are movie adaptations. Which counts for something, but still, people are experienceing the movies and I doubt a lot of 'em are becoming comic fans because of them. They more likely become more interested in movies.
Everything "used to be better" or "is better over there". The reason is that the crappy stuff made in the past or overseas never makes it to us; we only see the cream of the crop that has stood the test of time or been judged worthy for export.
I'm sure there is plenty of crappy manga, but only the good stuff gets exported because there is limited shelf space and marketing dollars for this genre here in the States.
There's a short list of subjects that anybody could rattle off that someone who calls him/herself a "geek" would be interested in.
Computers.
Science fiction (Star Wars, Star Trek, The Matrix)
Fantasy (Lord of the Rings, D&D)
Video Games.
Comic Books.
Find me a self-described geek who claims they have no interest in any of the above, (has never used a computer, seen the Matrix, rolled a 12 sided die or played a video game) and I would dare say you've got a liar... :)
Underground Comics:
Daniel Clowes
------------
Ghost World (The Comic)
David Boring
20th Century Eightball
------------
Robert Crumb
------------
Book of Mr. Natural
The Life and Death of Fritz the Cat
Complete Crumb (several volumes)
------------
Harvey Pekar
------------
American Splendor: The Life and Times of Harvey Pekar
The New American Splendor Anthology
Our Cancer Year
------------
Maus: A Survivor's Tale (by Art Spiegelman)
Comic Culture:
Ghost World (the Terry Zwigoff movie based on the Daniel Clowes comic of the same name)
Crumb (a biography of underground comic artist Robert Crumb)
American Splendor (a biography of underground comic artist Harvey Pekar)
Online Comics:
Dilbert
Calvin and Hobbes
Ziggy
Sexy Losers (hentai parodies, Not Safe For Work)
This Modern World ("Fair and Balanced" political cartoons with a clear liberal slant)
The Editorial Cartoons of Clay Bennett (2002 Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist)
Daryl Cagle's Professional Cartoonists Index (2003 Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist)
Anyone who knows of more good, free online comics links, or of some little know starving underground artists with godlike skills, feel free to add to this list! (note: excessive use of adjectives due to attempt of avoidance of the overwhelmingly troublesome, inflammatory, odious, objectionable, innefective, senseless, inappropriate, obtuse, antisocial, disjunctive, annoying, obnoxious, irritating, monotonous, wearisome, dull, dispirited, lackluster, uninspired, babble bubble bobble, puzzling, bewildering, headache-inducing, useless, stupid, lame slashdot usefulness filter.)
"You should never doubt what nobody is sure about." -- Willy Wonka
... "Uniform Moral Code", or whatever it was, got enforced.
...
What was that called again? The "Moral Code of Comics" which all the American publishers had to agree to, or they were blacklisted from distribution or some such thing
That totally broke the whole comic/artsy mold and turned 'comic' into 'propaganda device'.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
For a nice example of excellent quality US comics, try the Rising Stars series, written by JMS of Babylon 5 fame, published by Top Cow.
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
Yeah, Chris Ware is incredible. He has one of the most unique styles I've every seen.
I only have a cursory knowledge of the comics that are around compared to some people, but I can remember going to a local comic shop and just having to buy the "Acme Novelty Company" books as they were coming out.
The old style of illustration he uses is totally out of whack with the themes of his stories. Also, the tiny phony advertisements he would put on the backs of covers of the Acme books were absolutely hilarious and absolutely disturbing at the same time.
Happy people make bad consumers.
I'd be interested to know if Lee had anything to say about Wallace Wood. I've heard the two didn't get along that well but time (Wood died in the early 1980s) may have diminished the bad memories and left the good. For those who may not know, Wallace Wood was an incredible drawer who at one time worked for almost everybody in the industry. Recently on ebay, an original Weird Science cover drawing by Wood was up for sale at $25,000.
Except for the fact that the last remaining issues of finite-run Rising Stars probably won't ever be published because Top Cow is mucking around with the movie rights behind JMS' back.
Too bad. It was a good story. (Although his Midnight Nation comic book is way better.)
Anyway, JMS has moved on to Marvel. His new "Supreme Power" comic book looks at the whole "what if real super hero existed today" again. (Or you can catch his current run on Amazing Spider-Man.)
Isn't Atlantis supposed to be ripped off from some anime too? Emperor's New Groove was funny.
Not that I'm opposed to graphic novels, I love the things, (especialy if you're like me and prefer the 80's and early 90's storylines but don't have the funds to hunt for backissues) but big part of reading comics is waiting for next month's issue to find out what happens. A lot of the drama is lost. It's like the differnce between watching a TV series every week waiting for each new episode, and collecting the TV series in a DVD boxset then wathing the whole thin at once.
Also, because graphic novels are compilations of older issues there can't be graphic novels if there aren't new issues to compile them from. You get me? I prefer the dristrobution system of manga like Manga Blast, Animerica Extra, or Shonen Jump. Where you get five or six seperate stories for about US$6. Then, after six months or so there is graphic novel copilations of each of the stories.
But (sigh), the american comic inrustry is set up to be as accesable as the japanese import one.
As a side note: the last comic I saw at Wal-Mart (the ultimate bastion of american "average-ness") was the ("un-reversed" left-to-right read version) grapic novel copilation of Card Captor Sakura
Should read:
("un-reversed" right-to-left read version, aka japanese style)
Writer Brian Michael Bendis said before that the origin of most Marvel characters grew out of a fear of anything nuclear.
The Marvel universe itself, with the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, Daredevil... all of them were born out of cosmic rays, radiation, gamma rays, and radioactive materials. And, as Bendis said, whether it was conscious or not, this paranoia was probably fuelled by the Cuban Missile crisis, the nuclear arsenal of Russian and all that. And that's one of the reasons it resonated as well as it did.
And to make it relevant to today's time, Marvel did enlist Bendis (and other) to revamp a bunch of comics. The result is the Marvel's Ultimate line.
With it came new origins. But instead of the nuclear slant, the paranoia of today is corporations, government, the military, the media and the manipulation of all these groups. I think Marvel has really hit the nail with this revamp and the storylines are far more smart and pertinent, and there has been a lot more character development.
As an artist, Kirby was one of the great innovators. But as an influence, he was a disaster, because he convinced a whole generation of comic book artists that they didn't need to bother with things like anatomy or perspective. Kirby could ignore all of that stuff, but that was because he was a genius. When other artists tried to draw like Kirby, the result was always dreadful.
Don't forget the major brain drain that occured in the early 90's. Where the better Marvel talents like Jim Lee, Rob Leifeld, Todd McFarlane, Eric Larsen, etc. left to found Image comics.
Continue?
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
My bad. I haven't seen Disney's Atlantis, I only saw Snow White once, and likewise with The Little Mermaid. Mia Culpa.
Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
I was replying to a statment in a previous post that I meant to reply to before, but the post got modded down sufficiently that it was below my limit for posts that are displayed.
Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
It could be the problem that we Canadians run into over and over. Most of the time if we shoot off a number of bucks without converting an American will just nod and deal, but if we complain about a high price, the American will say "the price is never that high."
This happens even when the price difference is as small as two dollars, as here. $2 US, $3.50 CDN, for what is essentially a lavish pamphlet on the lifestyle of Superman is frustrating. For double that price I can get a paperback novel, and for a little less than three times that price I can get a copy of War and Peace. This is what matters, not the exact difference between two and four dollars. It's still a lot for a flimsy little thing.
..and here I thought that DC/Vertigo/ABC/Wildstorms was the only good thing AOL did...
Referral: Amazon has it for $2.50 less than bn!
Oh. Thats happened to me befor too.
Is it me or is there a certain irony about writing a book about a comic book writer? Never had an interest in the stuff.
MMORPG Fan? Prove your worth!