First Controllable Solar Sail Launched Today

clustermonkey writes "The first controllable solar sail was launched earlier today from a Russian sub in the Barents Sea. The Planetary Society, founded by Carl Sagan, organized the project and were funded by Cosmos Studios, founded by Sagan's widow. There have been 2 other solar sail deployments by others, but this will be the first to attempt controlled flight. The sail is scheduled to deploy June 25." All may not be well, though: Snot Locker writes "The Cosmos 1 Weblog is showing that, although the launch initially looked successful, they can't seem to find it or hear it. Bummer. Previous Slashdot coverage on the Cosmos 1 Solar Sail mission can be found here."

Comments

"Bummer"

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a bit more than a "Bummer":

Engineer #1: Yessiree, that solar sail is up there! This calls for a celebration!
Engineer #2: Um. Where is it?
Engineer #1: [points] Up there!
Engineer #2: Where up there?
Engineer #1: Way, way up there.
Engineer #2: You have no idea, right?
Engineer #1: [weak laugh] Nah.
Engineer #1: [shrug] Bummer.

Re:"Bummer"

[technoextreme]

You know if the thing was deployed then everyone should be able to see it. It is of course a shiny metal object close to the atmosphere.

Re:"Bummer"

[kkerwin]

"First controllable solar sail"?

But they can't see it or hear it ... am I to assume that they can't control it either? So much for that "first" ....

Re:"Bummer"

[Darby]

But they can't see it or hear it ... am I to assume that they can't control it either?

Not at all.
They can soooo totally still control it.
Well can you see it to tell them it's going the wrong way?

Re:"Bummer"

[SEWilco]

I hope they included a timer which will deploy the sail even without a command, just in case a problem in communication/control were to happen.

Re:"Bummer"

[Rei]

Good news! It's not conclusive, but:

http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/latest_update.h tml

9:40 pm PDT (4:40 UTC, June 22):
Tracking Station Data Suggest Cosmos 1 in Orbit
Close reviews of telemetry data received at several ground stations appear to reveal weak signals from the Cosmos 1 during the first hours after the launch. This may indicate that Cosmos 1 did make it into orbit around the Earth, though quite possibly not the orbit it was intended for.

In an official statement released at this time The Planetary Society said: We continue to search for the Cosmos 1 spacecraft. We have reviewed our telemetry recordings and have found what we believe are spacecraft signals in the data recorded at the tracking stations in Petropavlovsk, Kamchatka and Majuro, Marshall Islands. The review of data received at the tracking station in Panska Ves, Czech Republic also appears to indicate a spacecraft signal. If confirmed, these data will indicate that Cosmos 1 made it to orbit. We will continue to monitor planned telemetry sessions and will be working with U.S. STRATCOM (Strategic Command) to locate Cosmos 1.

Re:"Bummer"

[Curtman]

I hope they included a timer which will deploy the sail even without a command, just in case a problem in communication/control were to happen.

Would it do any good if they are unable to communicate with it to deploy the sail? I suppose it helps to know if the mechanics of the deployment work properly. But it still seems to me like sending a message in a bottle which nobody ever finds. There's not a lot we can learn from something that doesn't send any information back.

Re:"Bummer"

[Taladar]

If you want to test a wether a car rolls down a hill when you remove the brakes, do you have to contact the board computer to see it moving or would it suffice for the board computer to automatically remove the breaks?

Re:"Bummer"

[Saggi]

Well... it just blew away, I guess...

Re:"Bummer"

[Curtman]

"do you have to contact the board computer to see it moving or would it suffice for the board computer to automatically remove the breaks"

If you can't see or communicate with the car, then I see a certain futility in that, yeah..

Re:"Bummer"

[SEWilco]

If you can't see or communicate with the car, then I see a certain futility in that, yeah..

Any chance you might see a big sail in low Earth orbit? Optically or with radar? Especially if it's tumbling out of control, reflecting in random directions?

Re:"Bummer"

[Curtman]

"Any chance you might see a big sail in low Earth orbit?"

I thought the idea was to deploy the sail after it leaves orbit.

Re:"Bummer"

[SEWilco]

I thought the idea was to deploy the sail after it leaves orbit.

This is a test in LEO. Unless it works too well.

Re:"Bummer"

[Curtman]

Ahhh.. That explains my confusion. :)

Thanks.

Interstellar

[spyder913]

I wonder how well this kind of propulsion will work in interestellar space where there is no solar wind, let alone enough protons from one direction.

Maybe they'll figure out how to tack eventually...

Re:Interstellar

[Council]

I wonder how well this kind of propulsion will work in interestellar space where there is no solar wind, let alone enough protons from one direction.

I think the theory is you get up to a pretty high speed by the time you leave the solar system, then coast. You'd better be sure you can stop at the right place, though.

I'm sure people have figured that out. Obviously you run the process in reverse to slow down when you approach the star. But what if you can only shed half your speed by the time you get to the planet? (that is, if the other star is smaller, the planet further out, etc)?

Anyone?

Re:Interstellar

[spyder913]

Yeah that was my guess: you would have to stow the sail once you stop accelerating.

Re:Interstellar

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, having a solar sail doesn't exclude a more conventional engine. One could use an ion thruster for braking.

Re:Interstellar

[cahiha]

Solar sails aren't driven by solar wind or protons, they are driven by light (photons).

An interstellar voyage might be possible, but would probably require a laser or microwave system aimed at the sail for much of its journey (a brief "push" like that is also being tested as part of this experiment).

Re:Interstellar

[laxian]

Well, having a solar sail doesn't exclude a more conventional engine. One could use an ion thruster for braking

Right, also, the space vehicle wouldn't necessarily have to go directly to its destination and stop there like a boat or car. It would slow down enough to enter orbit around whatever it was after (positioning itself and/or slowing down by orbiting other things if necessary) and then doing what it needs to do (landing, observing, etc.)

Re:Interstellar

[MrMista_B]

What happens if you can only shed half your speed by the time you get to the planet?

Quite simply, you enter orbit.

Re:Interstellar

[Andrew-Unit]

If you want a sail driven by solar wind/protons, you've got the Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion idea, M2P2.

From the link:

M2P2 would generate a magnetic field and then inject plasma (ionized gas) that would drag the magnetic field lines out and form a plasma bubble 30 to 60 km (18-36 mi) in diameter.

And, the plasma bubble is very light... lighter than a solar sail.

Re:Interstellar

[Adammil2000]

Interstellar wind is supposed to be traveling at 20km/sec so that would provide propulsion beyond the heliopause, right?

Re:Interstellar

[Bad D.N.A.]

The solar sails work with photons of course. I've never thought about the solar wind as a propulsion device, I would imagine there might be a low density problem with that. But that's beside the point.

Our solar wind is 400 km/s on average and it takes 3 or 4 days to reach the Earth. So at the speed of the interstellar wind that journey would take 60+ days, and that's just 1 AU. To get to 100 AU that would be like 16 years, similar to the speed Voyager is moving at.

If you want to use 20 km/s to get somewhere you have better make sure there are two of every species on board.

Re:Interstellar

[grammar fascist]

Maybe they'll figure out how to tack eventually...

I'm not sure they will, at least not in the way we think of it.

Tacking requires the sail to act basically like an airplane wing. The shape of the sail creates a low-pressure area just in front of it - but that can only happen when you have enough matter in space to create a current. The solar sail relies only on photons to push, and there's no way you'll get them to bend around a sail - at least, not with current technology.

Re:Interstellar

[YA_Python_dev]

A simple option for the first missions can be to do a flyby in the target solar system and transmit data back, just like the first Mars missions.

Re:Interstellar

[Council]

No, you don't. Do you realize how high interstellar speeds are?

Re:Interstellar

[Mycroft_VIII]

Solar sails use photon pressure, aka light. Not having rtfm I suppose they could have intended to use the solar wind as well with this one, but light is what you'd use for intersteller distances.
On idea that's been kicked around is to put a huge laser on the moon and shine it at a retreating solar sail to give it an extra push to bring it up to higher speeds faster. This has the advantage beign able to use a huge facility without taking it along. Of course you'd have to reverse the sail much sooner and spend more time slowing down, unless of course there is a civilisation at the destination to build and shine an apropriate laser at you.

Mycroft

Re:Interstellar

[Anonymous Coward]

and then you have to determine if it's a friendly or hostile act!

Re:Interstellar

[LWATCDR]

For a higher speed you could use a laser or microwave beam to boost the system. As to when you get to the target. All you really need would be to slow enough to get in to a solar orbit around the target star.
From there you would could get to the target planet.
The big problem I see is making a space craft that would function that long. It would still take a very long time to get the nearest star. I am guessing around 40 years would be the best you could expect a solar sail to do. That would be .1c which works out to over 18,000+ miles per second. Which is fast by todays standards.
It is funny we have a whole solar system to explore still but we are are already getting board with it. Now we want to go to the stars.

Re:Interstellar

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not look directly at alien civilisation with remaining good eye.

Re:Interstellar

[mwood]

Orbit the star until you cancel enough energy, then go snag the planet?

Re:Interstellar

[mwood]

You never actually stop accelerating; it's just that as the photon flux thins out you reach a point beyond which the acceleration is so small that you may as well ignore it, even over long stretches of time. After all, we get a measurable amount of light from objects 14 billion light years away, and every one of those photons accelerates the object that absorbs it by a tiny amount. It's just not enough to feel and nobody's yet thought of any use for them other than imaging.

Why bother to furl the sail? It's a lot more complex than unfurling it and you may not be able to unfurl a second time when you need it. Either leave it be, or jettison the "outbound sail" and have a second "inbound sail" for the deceleration phase.

Re:Interstellar

[mwood]

Let's see. On the illuminated side of the sail we have pressure X. On the unilluminated side we have, uh zero. Sounds like a low-pressure area to me. The problem must be somewhat different from what you describe.

I should look it up, but I thought that tacking was basically a lot of vector addition that winds up cancelling out all the side-to-side motion and keeping the forward component. The wind tries to push the sail back, but the sail mostly wants to go sideways. The keel will let the hull go sideways but only if it also goes forward. Switch bearing frequently to get rid of the sideways motion and you wind up oscillating forward around your desired course.

But I've never operated a sailing vessel so I'm probably (heh heh) all wet.

Re:Interstellar

[mwood]

You've been reading Niven, haven't you. (See the First Man-Kzin War.)

Re:Interstellar

[Rhipf]

Supposedly the sail can be rotated to angle the incoming light in such a way that the speed of the vehicle can be increased or decreased. The purpose of this test flight was to see if this could be achieved in practice. The problem with interstellar travel is the there is no incoming light. The proposal is that one would use large lasers to generate the light force across these distances. There was a very good interview with one of the people involved in this test flight on CBC radio's Quirks & Quarks last Saturday (link to show http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/archives/04-05 /jun18.html).

Re:Interstellar

[Retric]

Tacking is not hard around a star if you have a reflective sail because of gravity.

Starting from earth / orbit you have 3 degrees of freedom. You might want to go above / below the plane of the ecliptic. You can do that by angling a reflective sail so light bounces off and below the plane if you want to go up or reverse that to go down.

You are all ready orbiting so going left right is really a question of waiting or entering a higher / lower orbit waiting a while and then going back to your old orbit.

To enter a lower orbit you reduce your orbital speed by reflecting light ahead of you. To enter a higher orbit you reflect light behind you.

If they want to leave orbit you reflect light at an extreme angle so it's still behind you but mostly it's away from the star. For interstellar voyages it might be useful to get into a comet like orbit and then accelerate as fast as you can on the last trip out of the system. (This assumes your only using the sun if you have a laser pushing you out of the system then it may not be needed.)

Re:Interstellar

[LnxAddct]

Whole solar system? Hell we still aren't even sure about everything on this planet! Especially in the depths of the ocean. Just because we haven't discovered everything about our planet doesn't mean we shouldn't explore outside of it. Exploring for the sake of exploring:)
Regards,
Steve

Re:Interstellar

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck, my backyard isn't fully explored. I'm not ready to get into the poison ivy and look at the bugs and roots under there yet.

There's no poison ivy in interstellar space.

Re:Interstellar

[Anonymous Coward]

It's obvious there are no sailors mod'n here, otherwise that post would have gotten a bit higher mod for funny ;)

Well, atleast it made me chuckle.

Re:Interstellar

[LWATCDR]

Oh I agree. My comment was more about people jumping on the solar sails to another star idea when we have not even gotten one to work in orbit yet.

Re:Interstellar

[The_Wilschon]

I'm going to assume that you mean an earth mounted, or independent space-faring-object mounted laser or microwave system... If it were mounted on the sail's payload, you would gain nothing. Conservation of Momentum.

Deja Vu

[rufusdufus]

I swear I remember this happening before.

Re:Deja Vu

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess if all these mishaps are on converted Soviet missles, maybe we should have just let the Cold War turn into a hot one and see if the USSR could get their weapons off the ground.

Re:Deja Vu

[Shamanin]

Yes, but the new artist rendition is way cooler

uh oh

[MrDoh!]

I'm just waiting for when it comes back as a near omnipotent being and starts demanding to see it's creator.

Re:uh oh

[Kjuib]

ya but... Soil does not have as good a sound to it as Vger... (Soxxx xxil)

Re:uh oh

[OverlordQ]

Game Over. Insert Geek Points to Continue.

Dont you mean Como, if you're trying to follow the Voyager (whatever) -> V'Ger translation. It is called Cosmos 1 not Solar Sail after all.

Re:uh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont you mean Como, if you're trying to follow the Voyager (whatever) -> V'Ger translation. It is called Cosmos 1 not Solar Sail after all.

So, should we start working on the clone of Carl, or Perry?

Phil

Re:uh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll bet it hit the tachyon surge and flew all the way to Cardassia.

Re:uh oh

[NanoGator]

"I'm just waiting for when it comes back as a near omnipotent being and starts demanding to see it's creator."

Why do I have the feeling there won't be any MrDoh decendents around to see that day?

Re:uh oh

[Ravatar]

I, for one, welcome our sun sucking fan-blade overlords.

Re:uh oh

[cranos]

im sorry but if VoyaGER => V'ger then CosMOS => CMOS, can I get my geek points now???

Re:uh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

No no it was launched by the Russians, so what about Commie

Re:uh oh

[Zemrec]

Nice. I wish we could build the sort of ship that Sisko did in that DS9 episode.

Re:uh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

to see it's creator

"its".

Re:uh oh

[freeradica1]

I don't think it's coming back. It obviously wants to be free.

I can't see it either

[l0ungeb0y]

404 File Not Found

The requested URL (science/05/06/21/2251211.shtml?tid=160&tid=126&ti d=14) was not found.

...

Unfortunately I can't locate a google cache for the missing spacecraft.

Anyone able to post a mirror?

Re:I can't see it either

[Archades]

404 Ship Not Found The Requested SHIP (Solar Sail blah) was not found. Please check all flight plans and trajectory......

Re:I can't see it either

[prjames]

Closest mirror I believe is Hubble Space Telescope, but I may be wrong.

Re:I can't see it either

[Grey Ninja]

That joke is so horrible that I couldn't stop myself from falling into hysterics laughing. Thanks man. =)

Always the risk.

[reality-bytes]

I really rather hope this project is okay and only suffering from a 'glitch'. (ie: unexpected orbit)

The trouble is, every time you take what is essentially a robotically controlled device and send it into space giving it a good *shake* in the process (rockets really do vibrate a lot), you run the risk of breaking something.

Of course, you combat this by duplicating as much of the systems as you can but when your experiment requires a very low mass (ala solar sail controller) I wonder how much redundancy is possible?

Still. I hope Cosmos sparks back to life /is found and they get a sucessful experiment. I would be good to prove that solar-sailing is a viable solar-locomotion concept rather than just proving that electronics packages are fragile things.

Re:Always the risk.

[Rei]

If you want to know what the people organizing the mission are thinking, the Planetary Society's Latest Update section is a good spot to go. As it stands, the following has been stated:

* The signal didn't dissapear suddenly when the kick fired - it became irregular, and then dissapeared after three minutes.

* The signal was received clearly after launch for six minutes.

* There were irregular readings coming from the Volna; however, clearly the craft detached, or there wouldn't have been six minutes of signal.

* STRATCOM can't find the satellite. That doesn't mean that it's gone - only that it's not where they told them to look. Likewise, the lack of ground station reception could mean the same thing. It could be in the wrong orbit, which is actually a more common phenominon than a total craft loss.

* The chance of signal acquisition at the early two stations was only considered marginal to begin with. The big test will be at the permanent stations in Paska Ves, and especially the Tarusa and Bear lakes.

* Not receiving a signal from a spacecraft during the first few orbits is "not extremely unusual". Nonetheless, they do sound a bit nervous.

Re:Always the risk.

[Fear the Clam]

The trouble is, every time you take what is essentially a robotically controlled device and send it into space giving it a good *shake* in the process, you run the risk of breaking something.

New rule, people! No British nannies in space.

Presumably...

[Otter]

...if the craft suffered "failure to enter orbit at all", presumably that means it hit space and kept going, right? I'd imagine someone would have noticed a Russian ICBM falling randomly out of the sky.

Re:Presumably...

[Tackhead]

>...if the craft suffered "failure to enter orbit at all", presumably that means it hit space and kept going, right? I'd imagine someone would have noticed a Russian ICBM falling randomly out of the sky.

In other words, what you're trying to say is that somewhere downrange of post-Soviet Russia, solar sail will eventually find yo*CRUNCH*
NO CARRIER

Re:Presumably...

[winkydink]

NO, I think what it means is it hit the ground with a resounding THUNK!

There's a good chance that Russian/US military know exactly where the damn thing fell but aren't telling anyone lest they give away previously unconfirmed capabilities or somesuch.

Re:Presumably...

[TheKidWho]

I know what really happened

You see, the Russians never launched Cosmos 1, they realized that these guys would be a bunch of suckers so what they did, is they got them to pay for the launch, and then launched their own new spy satellite In the same orbit that Cosmos 1 was supposed to be in. And now they are going to tell them "tough luck, you must have out bad communications equipment on her or something". So the Americans pay the money, and the Russians get to launch their spy satellite.

Next Week on Conspiracy Theory 101
Sony and Microsoft are really in bed against Nintendo!

Re:Presumably...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the submarine sunk, and its just a coverup that they launched it?

Re:Presumably...

[cahiha]

No. Rockets don't accidentally escape into space--it takes way too much fuel. If it were that easy, the sail would have been sent on a trajectory away from earth.

Re:Presumably...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just what the Russians want you to think.

In fact, the submarine has been secretly staffed with officers loyal to the commander, who is even now on his way to the US to defect under the guise of secret orders, while bringing a premier example of Soviet naval technology with him. This mission was his excuse to get a head start.

Re:Presumably...

[tqft]

Best place for info on launches etc:

http://planet4589.org/space/jsr/latest.html

Copy and paste the link as /. is barred after a previous bad experience.

Re:Presumably...

[forkazoo]

Gieven the young average age of the slashdot crowd, many may not be familiar with the joys of BBS'ing on modems, so I dare say that in post-Soviet Russia, no carrier jokes are for old people.

I mean, in post Soviet Russia, ICBM welcomes you as overlord for old people.

Re:Presumably...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you can be assured that there's a carrier group somewhere withing range ;)

The first uncontrollable solar sail launched in 82

[Anonymous Coward]

When I tied a Keep on Truckin' T-shirt to an Estes Andromeda.

Bummer indeed

[J05H]

There is a chance that it will succeed in deploying. If it's lost, it's double the downer: I helped pay for it as a Planetary Society member. PS also developed a Mars Microphone for the MPL (lost), DVD and sundial for current rovers and a balloon-borne "snake" of sensors that never flew. Dammit, I want this one to work, finally.

ad astra!

Re:Bummer indeed

[QuantumG]

So umm, why can't all space research be paid for this way? Or at least, why don't US citizens have the option to pay some percentage of their tax to NASA when they file their tax returns?

Re:Bummer indeed

[amjacobs]

Ummm....because that isn't the way our tax system works. Obviously, you can't not pay taxes on things you disagree on; this is just the opposite of that. Besides, if you want to give your money for a project like this, that is what donations are for. You don't really want to let the gov't get into it, do you?

Re:Bummer indeed

[QuantumG]

My point is, why is NASA funded by our taxes? Why can't it be funded by a voluntary organisation? The space race is over. It kinda reminds me of tolls on roads and bridges. They fund the construction by charging a toll for 20 years and then they say, heck, people are used to paying the toll, we'll just leave it on.

Re:Bummer indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Not related to NASA at all, but those tolls are generally used to maintain the roads after they've been built. It's not like they just pocket the money (at least, not all of it).

Re:Bummer indeed

[bhima]

I'd have to say because unlike a toll for a tunnel or a bridge there is no practical way to distribute advantages of space research to only those who funded it... or are you suggesting that the sole application for space research is public nationalistic masturbation?

Re:Bummer indeed

[QuantumG]

I dunno, what exactly is the benefit to society of funding astronomy? Oh, you were talking about some other space program? Ok, fine, what is the benefit to society of funding whatever it is you're talking about? Seriously, we're paying a whole lot of money here. I personally think astronomy is fascinating but I can't think of a single good reason to stand on a street corner and demand that people buy me a telescope (or for that matter, shove a gun in their face and demand it). Building a hospital or funding some other form of medical research, that I can justify, but astronomy? Really, where's the benefit?

Even if you think there is some benefit to society in funding the space program, isn't there the same benefit in funding other disciplines of science? Where's the National Mathematics and Computation Administration? Does it get the same amount of funding as NASA?

Re:Bummer indeed

[bhima]

The benefit of space research can be summed up in one word: Tang!

OK now seriously... From my point of view much of space research benefits are much the same as pure research... so the progression of technology is in part driven by these sorts of research. Sure medical research is an easily justifiable money sink but the technology that comes from space research accelerates the rate of medical research. I'm in the medical device development business and in the past I have been a part of successful NASA sensor technology transfers. I think the value of all pure research is tremendously undervalued because of the difficulty of seeing immediate quantifiable benefits... sort of like the child that doesn't understand why they have to take physical education or art classes.

Also I think that space research is a necessity to the long term survival of our species for a variety of reasons. One: given the rate of expansion of population the competition for non renewable resources must surely continue to increase as well. Two: to quote Larry Niven "The dinosaurs are extinct because they did not have a space program". Three: Eventually, I think, our rate of increase of technology will be hampered just because we are limited to being just on this one planet... so the benefits of space research are similar to the European ocean explorations in the 1500's.

I've saved my most cynical comment for last: I'm not so sure that money can cure the "Human Condition". I think if the US spent 10 times the money they spend on their military budget on humanitarian aid that the benefits would NOT be increased on the same scale. In other words if humanitarian aid dollars were increased a thousand fold human suffering would not decrease more than 100 fold. So it's not really like: for every dollar spent on space research a little African baby starves to death or something like that.

Oh... and I think that the "National Mathematics and Computation Administration" is really called the "NSA" and they get much more money than NASA.

One more thing: The results of Googling around (feel free to correct me). US Gross Domestic product 17 Trillion US Dollars, US defense budget 360 Billion USD, NASA Budget 16 Billion USD, Department of Homeland security 37 Billion USD. (I couldn't find anything on foreign aid numbers quickly)

Re:Bummer indeed

[pnuema]

I dunno, what exactly is the benefit to society of funding astronomy? Oh, you were talking about some other space program? Ok, fine, what is the benefit to society of funding whatever it is you're talking about?

Let's see...microwave ovens, velcro, tang, mammography, LEDs, global communications networks, satellite television, jaws of life, breathing systems for firefighters, Vancouver's stadium, laser surgery...all came about because of NASA funded research. That good enough?

Re:Bummer indeed

[mwood]

Per ardua. Hang in there.

Re:Bummer indeed

[J05H]

quant- plz read the replies from others,they all make very valid points.

A surprising amount of space research is done privately: AmSat HAM radio satelites, several Planetary Society devices, the (failed) Boston University TERRIER and the successful UCal/SpaceDev CHiPSAT. Not sure of the numbers, but big terrestrial telescopes are funded by private foundations as well as the Feds. Did you, perhaps, miss the SpaceShipOne flights last year? This is only the start of commercial/private space development. Not to be confused with Military-Industrial Complex space development. All space research could be done this way in future, but it won't carry the same Square Jawed Astronauts Facing the UnKnown(TM) that NASA has been known for. Imagine Shell Oil's Mars-bound crew of prospector-cyborgs as reality TV. No matter what happens at/to NASA, don't expect the Primes to go away, Boeing etc have shown great skill at surviving.

On the government side, our taxes simply are not structured like that - and doing so would cause havoc with the tax code. It'd be cool,but it's not gonna happen. If you want to have direct input into space development you can work for NASA or one of the Primes, buy enough stock in any aerospace company to effect their direction, join Planetary Soc or NSS, or join/found a company with a new space-related product.

Lastly, NASA's $16 billion budget is a rounding error for the Pentagon and Socialist Security.

Josh

Re:Bummer indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, fine, what is the benefit to society of funding whatever it is you're talking about?

More than you'll ever produce while living, fucktard.

Re:Bummer indeed

[amjacobs]

As another poster has already mentioned the "National Mathematics and Computation Administration" is known as the "NSA". They hire the vast majority of mathematicians in this country. And their budget is most definitely funded by taxpayer dollars, and is many times larger than NASA's budget.

As always, the main argument is whether to pay for practical things now (which we do anyways) versus paying for pure research. The benefit of pure research is hard to quantify, but how would we make advances without it?

As to the benefit of researching astronomy, the processes that go on in the center of stars are exactly the kinds of things that pertain to modern quantum theories such as QCD. (Quantum Chromo-Dynamics, I believe)

Re:Bummer indeed

[QuantumG]

No, because absolutely zero of them came from funding astronomy. Each and every one of the things you mention could have just as easily been developed by inventors following their own self interest.

Already failed according to Russian news

[marat]

here

In short, at 83rd second engine stopped working for unknown reason, and the whole thing is currently being intensively searched for. Probably Russian ICBMs are not so good for launching satellites after all.

Re:Already failed according to Russian news

[Dunbal]

Probably Russian ICBMs are not so good for launching satellites after all.

Look on the bright side, maybe during the Cold War Russia actually attacked the United States a couple times but no one realized it since the warheads got lost along the way... :-)

Re:Already failed according to Russian news

[ginotech]

hey, you're telling me we wasted a whole cold war on that?

Re:Already failed according to Russian news

[marat]

I can only recite:

Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss

Re:Already failed according to Russian news

[MyLongNickName]

Worst. HHGTG. Reference. Ever,

Re:Already failed according to Russian news

[ColaMan]

Probably because ICBM's were designed to be sub-orbital, to conveniently deliver their happy-fun-payload of DOOM to the other side of the planet.

Sure, with a lighter payload and a longer engine burn to reach an intermediate orbit, they'd 'probably' be ok. But don't bet the whole farm on something that's supposed to just launch to 100km and fall back down again via gravity.

Re:Already failed according to Russian news

[Anonymous Coward]

I once calculated it, it should be much stronger to get to the orbit, not just lighter and longer; and in fact they use additional stage made of engine designed for satellite deorbiting - all this require a lot of testing that's exactly what they're doing now, otherwise they would do commercial satellite launches, not help people with their homegrown projects.

Re:Already failed according to Russian news

[Mycroft_VIII]

BRIGHTSIDE!?!?! a few russian nukes lying around where someone could stumble across them and possible make a working device is a bright side?!?!?!
Well then again I suppose it could be a bright side, for a second or so till the shockwave hit right after the flash.

Mycroft

Unseaworthy

[Anonymous Coward]

BBC World Service is reporting that the craft isn't sending the signals we expect. It'll be a damn shame if this is a dud.

Swords into Plowshares

[NardofDoom]

"...atop a converted ICBM..."

Just like some other craft we happen to know.

Re:Swords into Plowshares

[Anonymous Coward]

Why invoke Zephram Cochran? Why not Gagarin, Shepherd, Glenn? They all launched on converted ICBMs, too.

In Soviet Russia...

[Anonymous Coward]

... refurbished ICBM fails you!!!~~~~!one!1

Possible bad news:

[The Good Reverend]

This is from Reuters, via CNN:

Tracking stations failed to pick up signals from an experimental solar-driven orbiter launched on Tuesday from a Russian submarine, raising the prospect the mission had failed.

This includes stations in Russia's Kamchatka peninsula, the Marshall Islands, Alaska, the Czech Republic, and two stations outside Moscow.

Hopefully it's a temporary problem, or just a miscalculated orbit.

Re:Possible bad news:

[Anonymous Coward]

Engineer #1: A few hundred kilometers that way or this way wouldn't matter...
Engineer #2: Miles
Engineer #1: What do you mean "miles"?

pwnd!

Re:Possible bad news:

[Anonymous Coward]

It should be light years

Endevour...

[Robotron23]

Its certainly apparant that this sail is a huge step forward in space exploration as a whole. Whats even better is that the entire project cost around $4 million to get on the ground.

For those wandering what the mission will entail exactly, its quite simple :

Firstly, the craft must enter orbit.
After a short time, the aluminium solar sails will unfurl.
The speed and trajectory will be continually monitored as per the estimates of the Cosmos crew.

Lastly, the craft will keep heading outwards from low-earth orbit, thus concluding the mission and proving that solar sails are a viable and worthwhile method of space exploration.

Re:Endevour...

[DeathByDuke]

"Whats even better is that the entire project cost around $4 million to get on the ground."

yeah they certainly may have got it on the ground alright now!

Re:Endevour...

[mwood]

Even if it is a total loss, we got something for $4 million: evidence that $4 million is too little to do a successful space shot. It would be useful to know that, if true. We might avoid sinking a whole lot more on a plethora of bargain-basement missions doomed from the start by insufficient funding.

Spending more doesn't always get you better. But it may be that the "sweet spot" is $40 million, not $4 million or $4 billion.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some Carribean nations also still use the English system.

Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[WillAffleckUW]

I wonder how well this kind of propulsion will work in interestellar space where there is no solar wind, let alone enough protons from one direction.

Let's visualize someone on a bike. They stand at the top of a hill (solar radiation effect, closer to the sun, more there is). They peddle enough to get going (ion drive or solar sail). Then they pick up speed rapidly as they go down the hill.

Once they reach the bottom of the hill, where there isn't enough material to push them they fold up the sail - or in our bike version, they let the mechanism keep them moving forward.

During this time the sail is folded - like the biker bent forward to lower wind resistance. As they approach the destination, based on speed, solar radiation - or for a bike, based on how steep and high the next hill is - they eventually unfurl the sail.

Pushx5 + Pushx4 + Pushx3 + Pushx2 + Pushx1 ... coast ... -Pushx0.01 + -Pushx0.02 + -Pushx0.03 + -Pushx0.04 + -Pushx5 + -Pushx6 and you're there.

The advantage over a bike is that as you go up the hill (into the solar radiation), you get pulled in by gravity and since your sails are collapsed there is not much push back.

Simple.

Yes, I know it's not linear, I'm just trying to help you visualize it. We can deal with the space-time continuum effects another time as well.

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[Anonymous Coward]

During this time the sail is folded - like the biker bent forward to lower wind resistance.

Geez, couldn't you have left well enough alone with that moronic comment about the metric system? Think that through a little harder...why is resistance not an issue an interstellar space?

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[TripMaster Monkey]

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[mikael]

Read up on "interstellar space". There is a low density of hydrogen gas out there - it wasn't pulled in by the gravitational pull of the stars when they formed, and it wasn't pushed out by the solar wind when the star achieved fusion.

So when you're craft is going at 200,000 mph, every little hydrogen atom is going to blow a chunk out of your craft and slow down your velocity. So it would make sense to reduce the surface area of your craft, in the direction that it is travelling.

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[mrchaotica]

For an unfurled solar sail, resistance would be an issue in interstellar space. If you even hit only one speck of dust per mile, over tens of light-years it still adds up!

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[tomhudson]

why is resistance not an issue an interstellar space?

Because - resistance - is - futile. D'oh!

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[cahiha]

Solar sails are not intended to be propelled by solar wind, they are propelled by light. For interstellar voyages, you'd propel the solar sail actively (with a laser). That technology will also be tested as part of this experiment.

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[Anonymous Coward]

The solar wind is the stream of charged particles that gets caught in Earth's magnetic field to create the auroras. Solar sails simply use photons and solar radiation. To see how solar wind can be applied, however, you can read NPR's piece on plasma sails.

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[helioquake]

A couple of minor comments here.

There is a low density of hydrogen gas out there

Yes, but it's not that low. Actually higher density than the bubble that the Solar system lives inside (as you say, solar wind clears the way). Solar wind is less denser than interstellar space, believe or not.

it wasn't pushed out by the solar wind

They were pushed out. It is just that the gas pressue of interstellar space is in equilibrium with the gas pressure of solar wind. Pushing didn't cease to exist all of sudden, you know?

The rest of points I totally agree. I wanted to mod you up, but the two points above bothered me a bit.

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[Anonymous Coward]

So when you're craft is going

"your".

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[Kiryat Malachi]

Pushing didn't cease to exist all of sudden, you know?

No, it ceased to exist after it was shoved down stairs.

That is the Terrible Secret of Space.

Re:Interstellar - no solar wind or enough protons?

[mikael]

They were pushed out. It is just that the gas pressue of interstellar space is in equilibrium with the gas pressure of solar wind. Pushing didn't cease to exist all of sudden, you know?


I understood these particles formed a shockwave where they collided with the interstellar gas, which was static due to the gravitational force from the Sun and planets being neglibible.

Well...

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

What would be really cool is if it came back online in a week or so, and was many hundreds of thousands of miles away already...

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

get a different ip address they are assmonkeys, as you say

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[geekoid]

You made up an issue, just so you can rant about imperial measurement.
what an ass.

also, it's Reagans fault.

Malfunction fear for solar sail

[Anonymous Coward]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4110912.stm

My first thought...

[Fortyseven]

...Tron? ;D

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[WillAffleckUW]

Some Carribean nations also still use the English system.

Officially they don't. Cuba, Haiti, and other sovereign nations use metric. Dutch, French, and other nation's possessions (like the French West Indies departements of Gaudaloupe) use their mother countries metric as well.

The only exceptions are possessions - not nations - of the USA.

Here endeth the lesson.

Endevour [sic]

[TripMaster Monkey]

You forgot one step:

Lastly, the solar wind will shred the sails of this craft, as we have not yet developed a material light enough for solar sails, yet robust enough to withstand long-term exposure to the solar wind.

Still perfectly valid for proof-of-concept, but a good long way from practical application.

Re:Endevour [sic]

[H0D_G]

a solar sail uses photons for propulsion, not the 'solar wind.' the energy comes from reflection. what will shred it is space dust

Re:Endevour [sic]

[anubi]

Still worth every penny... even if your scenerio plays out exactly as you forecast.

We need to know what we are dealing with. And how much of it.

This wouldn't be the first time a sensory exploration was sacrificed to get the data.

I often learn more from a failure than I did from a success.

With a success, I usually only verify what I already knew...mostly a comforting reassuring nod from God ( if you are so inclined ) to let me know I had it right... but on a failure, I am usually made painfully aware I had some terrible misconceptions.

Of course they can't find it...

[centauri]

... it must be halfway to Coruscant by now.

Re:Of course they can't find it...

[Anonymous Coward]

With a souvenier hand to boot.

Re:Of course they can't find it...

[Lars T.]

Don't you mean Cardassia?

Re:Of course they can't find it...

[centauri]

You'll have to explain that reference to me. I didn't think Star Trek ever bothered with solar sails, except for a brief mention as an emergency power source in Star Trek IV.

Re:Of course they can't find it...

[Lars T.]

DS9-Episode Explorers.

Re:Of course they can't find it...

[centauri]

Thanks.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[Rei]

Actually, I'm betting that this time it was due to a spelling error. The sub that launched the Volna rocket was the Borisoglebsk, The first receiving station was at Petropavlovsk on the Kamchatka penninsula. The temporary ground station to pick it up next was on Majuro. Then it will next contact Panska Ves in the Czech republic. It's not until the ground stations at the Tarusa and Bear Lakes that the spelling becomes sufferable. :)

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[WillAffleckUW]

also, it's Reagans fault.

Huh? because he signed the SALT II accords that caused the Russian ICBM to become available cheap?

How is that his fault?

Since they saved a lot by buying an ICBM that was supposed to be destroyed, they could always buy another ...

DEED!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother getting your hopes up. It's dead.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[Anonymous Coward]

America is the worlds largest Superpower. We'll do what we want. You can keep your damn metric system. We'll keep doing just fine running things our way.

Call is sour grapes if you will, but I'm proud to be an american. Besides, we are forced learn metric in school from the time we're young. We "choose" to be different.

Space Pirates

[Anonymous Coward]

First we lose a couple of probes to the Martians and now a sailing vessel to a bunch of space pirates. I say we send Russel Crowe, Bruce Willis, and a crew of misfits up on a shuttle to track them down and hang 'em from the highest yardarm!

Snot Locker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I'd actually be more inclined to trust an AC over someone with that moniker...

That's, like, ironical...

[Rexifer]

The spacecraft is missing... It's kind of poetic that the article reporting that fact would be missing, too.

Too early to say if Cosmos has failed

[n54]

According to the official timeline the first high-quality ground station contact will be approximately Jun 22 04:23 UTC (Jun 21 21:23 PDT) - that is 8 h 37 m into the launch, i.e. it hasn't happened yet. I guess someone got a bit overly eager to report news or simply didn't have a clue or something similar in the time-honored Slashdot fashion...

To quote from the official timeline (which I will not link to on Slashdot for obvious reasons):
"First high-quality ground station contacts: Tarusa and Bear Lakes On the spacecraft's fifth orbit around the Earth, its orbital path will finally carry it high across the sky as seen from the Russian ground stations. These contacts should provide good communication from the spacecraft."

As to the passes and communication attempts that have been attempted so far have been attempts during low-quality situations. It sure would have been nice if they went through but it's too early to say either way yet.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[gardyloo]

Call is sour grapes if you will, but I'm proud to be an american. Besides, we are forced learn metric in school from the time we're young. We "choose" to be different.

You sure do.

After reading blog posts...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've realized that the rocket was blasted to smithereens by GWB's Space Lazer!

Excellent test of that mizzile defenze system, Georgie! You got one!

Wheeeee!

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Jimmy Carter signed SALT II.

Re:Might as well be Fox News

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you mis-spelled Faux.

Re:I thank you for your 7ime

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, YOU post to annoy the trolls!

Hail Humans!

[all yr bass r belong]

To the rest of the universe: All your space are belong to us.

Re:I thank you for your 7ime

[Anonymous Coward]

Pumpkin!

Not looking good!

[Brett Buck]

The report of data suddenly looking "noisy" about the time the final stage fired is a pretty classic bad news situation. The sequence is usually: "looking good!" "clean separation!" "5-4-3-2-1,kick motor ignition" data lost followed by, a short time later "radar indicates multiple targets..." Not that I am hoping, but it's a really bad sign. Brett

Re:Not looking good!

[Detritus]

According to this, all of the rocket's stages were powered by storable liquid fuel engines. So it should be immune to the inherent risks of a solid fuel kick motor. An engineer once told me that a certain percentage of kick motors just blow up, despite x-ray inspections and other tests.

Re:Not looking good!

[helioquake]

Sounds like clogging in the fuel line, leading to explosion of the final state booster to me.

Man, I wonder how many nukes Soviets would fail to launch back in the cold war days.

Spaceflight now has the scoop

[fname]

Spaceflight Now has posted a story about the launch. The 1st stage failed after 83 seconds.

It's on mars..

[multipartmixed]

...hanging out with the Vikings.

What if someone does find this thing?

[rsynnott]

What will they think of us as a civilisation; that we launch this craft packed with messages of friendship and names of random people and things on a device designed to kill millions of people?

Re:What if someone does find this thing?

[ColaMan]

That we've got a cool sense of the ironic?

Re:What if someone does find this thing?

[DerWulf]

I wonder what people think ICBMs are. What *do* you imagine? It's just a rocket. The payload is what matters. There is nothing inherently evil in a device that can be mounted with a nuclear warhead. The warhead is pretty evil though.

Re:What if someone does find this thing?

[rsynnott]

Ah, but in this case it was a rocket specifically designed for delivering such devices. That said, I'm more or less in favour of nuclear weapons; the US and SU would have wiped each other, and the rest of the world, out, without the threat of mutually assured destruction.

Re:What if someone does find this thing?

[DerWulf]

you can't see that, can you? How could an alien tell that this was actually only designed to cross the atlantic and carry a huge punch instead of lifting a peaceful craft into space?

Re:What if someone does find this thing?

[rsynnott]

I thought the disc on it included a little history of the launch.

Re:What if someone does find this thing?

[DerWulf]

oh it does? Goram, the aliens are just gonna waste us then ... or maybe they like the 'swords to plows ' theme ;)

Of course they can't hear it!

[ZSpade]

It's in space!

Re:Of course they can't hear it!

[Anonymous Coward]

> It's in space!

That's only if it's screaming.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[Anonymous Coward]

But we no forced to learn spell or grammur!

Is this a serious question?

[Anonymous Coward]

Answer: Leave the original star system with at most the maximum speed that the destination system can allow.

Also in the news...

[R3d M3rcury]

The United States announced that an unscheduled test of their anti-ballistic missile system succeeded in intercepting a Russian ICBM.

An official Pentagon spokesperson said, "Oops. Sorry about that."

credibility gap...

[Anonymous Coward]

i just could get past "Snot Locker"... never mind actually reading TFA.

Re:I thank you for your 7ime

[Dunbal]

In Soviet Russia, satellite launches YOU!

How does it stop?

[MoogMan]

So, by the time it gets to pluto, it'll be gone past in a few milliseconds, at 100,000 miles per hour or something. Forgive me for asking, but...

How do they get the damn thing to stop?!

Re:How does it stop?

[raptor_87]

It's not supposed to stop. It's not supposed to land anywhere. At the end of the mission, we just let it drift away. Thankfully, interplanitary (and even more so interstellar) space is large enough for us to get away with this for a *long* time.

Re:How does it stop?

[anubi]

Well, if they really wanna bring it back ( say, you are trying to man this thing and want your men back ), you will have to use the gravitational well of some planet to use as a "slingshot" to send you back inward toward the sun.

The inertia you accumulated during your voyage would be thus transferred to the planet you chose to slingshot off of, much like you transfer inertia between balls during a game of pool.

Yes, that is the thing about navigation with solar sails... your thrust vector is outward... always outward.

Re:How does it stop?

[g-san]

It uses a solar anchor.

Re:How does it stop?

[atavus]

They turn it around 1/2 way there. A solar sail will (in theory) accelerate 1/2 the way then turn around and decelerate the rest of the way. Though, since the push from the solar wind will diminish the further from Sol it gets, it won't be at the 1/2 way mark.

"English"?

[BeaverCleaver]

Even the English no longer use the so-called "english" system.

The Brits had as good a reason to hang on to the old system as the USA - They live next door to a country (France in their case, Canada for the US) who use, nay, popularised the system, and even those insular old traditionalists have realised which system. Just. Works.

BTW, if it's an "english" sytem, why to the Americans have a different-sized "gallon" to the Imperial gallon?

Re:"English"?

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, if it's an "english" sytem, why to the Americans have a different-sized "gallon" to the Imperial gallon?

For the same reason Americans added incorrect spellings like "color" to their dictionary. It was easier to change the language than to correct all the uneducated simps who got it wrong.

Re:"English"?

[Froug]

BTW, if it's an "english" sytem, why to the Americans have a different-sized "gallon" to the Imperial gallon?

America uses the old English wine gallon for all fluid measurements, which is equal to 231 cubic inches.

At the time, the Brits had a wine gallon as well as an ale gallon (282 cu. in), but they later replaced both with a unified gallon that was defined as being equal to the volume occupied by 10 avoirdupois pounds of water at a temperature of 62 F.

This change allowed convenient subdivision and equivalency between dry and liquid measurement (because the gallon is defined by the avoirdupois pound, which also applies to dry measurement). It simplified things and caught on in Britain, but wasn't adopted by the Americas.

Instead, America kept the British wine gallon and defined a fluid ounce as 1/128th of that gallon (the English ounce is 1/160th of their gallon).

It's an English system because it's an English system. It's just an old one that the English stopped using a long time ago.

As you can see, America's resistance to change has been around much longer than the metric system.

Fun fact: Avoirdupois is actually a french phrase slightly mangled together- "avoir du poids", which literally means "to have weight".

More likely

[Andy Dodd]

It got high enough to burn up upon reentry, but not high enough to achieve orbit.

That or it's simply not in its intended orbit, in which case reestablishing signal is a matter of finding the thing (which will happen eventually) so that one can figure out which way to point the groundstation antennas.

In Soviet Russia...

[Anonymous Coward]

Solar sail loses YOU!

Patience, Metric Nonsense & Middle-earth

[Anonymous Coward]

In the late 60s, I worked at a radar site that was part of the chain that tracked Mercury and Gemini astronaunts. A couple of weeks before a manned launch, NASA would put the second stage of an Atlas into orbit to give the range something to practice on.

Once, the practice satellite circled the entire planet with no radar in the range seeing it until the site where I worked (Eglin AFB) picked it up coming over the radar horizon 1200 miles out. Not bad for a skin track! (Disclaimer: we had an oversized C-band dish, a Maser front end, and a 10 megawatt transmitter.) The radar chief bragged about that for years. Something similar could happen with this bird. The sky is big. It may still be found.

****

Those who're so stuck on metric are ignoring the real world. It's no accident that the metric system was invented by French intellectuals who'd never done a decent day's work in their lives. The system's only advantage is the ease you can move between units, i.e. millimeters to kilometers. That's not something that's done very often on the job.

In contrast, macho, made-by-real-men measuring systems use marvelous numbers like 12, 16, 36, 360, and 640. Twelve, the number of inches in a foot, can be divided in whole numbers by 2, 3, 4, and 6. Very handy when you're building something. Metric measures, in contrast, can only be divided by 2 or 5, which is almost worthless.

And 360, the number of degrees in a circle, is even more marvelous. You can divide it into an even number of degrees by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, 24, etc. No klutzing around with the dreadful 3.3333333333333333333333... sorts of numbers the metric system coughs up all the time. Divide the 360 degree horizon into 3 segments, say for a cellular antenna system and each is precisely 120 degrees wide. Divide by four, and it's 90 degrees. Nice!

Except for cars and aircraft, where the measuring is done by CAD and computers, no one in the US is going metric because we've got enough sense to know the old way is the best way. And we don't have any weird, paper-shuffling Belgian bureaucrats telling us otherwise.

Besides, if the old English system was good enough for the hobbits of Middle-earth, it's good enough for us today.

--Mike Perry, Seattle, Untangling Tolkien

Re:Patience, Metric Nonsense & Middle-earth

[H0D_G]

sorry, how many cubits to a furlong? and how many links a mile? where did they pull all of this from? the metric system has clearly defined origins and logical progression. lets see, ten fingers, ten toes... I'll make a number system based on completely random numbers. luddites...

Re:Patience, Metric Nonsense & Middle-earth

[Wengero]

60 minutes in an hour 24 hours in a day 7 days in a week 52 weeks in a year 365.25 days in a year cant get much more random then that

Re:Patience, Metric Nonsense & Middle-earth

[bluGill]

Who cares? You rarely convert cubits to furlongs. (cubits are even part of the US system, they come from the Bible) I often convert divide a foot into thirds, which the US system does well, while the metric system doesn't.

Perhaps you should grow 2 more fingers. A base 12 system is much nicer to work with. You are used to a base 10 system, because you have 10 fingers.

We're not saying the launch failed....

[russotto]

...we're just saying that maybe you want to stay inside for the next few days. Perhaps underground. If you decide otherwise and see an unexpected meteor shower, please give us a call.

Superior Alien Force Won't Allow Space Exploration

[soccrates]

I knew the superior alien beings watching planet Earth wouldn't allow such a step forward for humanity. They realise either we'll be a force to reckon with in the future, or are too young a civilisation to be exposed to malevolent stellar forces.

I think they must be vulcans.

Thats what I reckon anyway.

:)

Solar Sail + Ramjet

[MrMista_B]

Y'know, it occurs to me that in order to derive the greatest efficiency of the velocity gained by the use of a solar sail, it would be best to pair it with a Ramjet.

The photons/laser defice against the sail would serve to propel the craft, while the ramjet would, in effect, serve to "pull" the craft.

Now, I don't think such a configuration would serve to double the potential veloctiy, but it would certainly begin to alleviate some of the deficiencies of each.

Re:Solar Sail + Ramjet

[kidgenius]

And the ramjet would use all that oxygen floating around in space for power right?

Re:Solar Sail + Ramjet

[Mycroft_VIII]

I'm pretty shure the gp meant a Bussard Ramjet. This works by collecting interstellar hydrogen using a magnetic field spread over many miles at the front end and compressing it down to a tiny point behind the craft. This compression causes a fusion reaction that results in fusion byproducts Much heated exiting backwards while imparting a forward momentum on the craft.
The reason it's called a ramjet is because like the sort of ramjet you're apparently thinking of it requires a healthy velocity to work, to slow and you're not going to be collecting enough hydrogen fast enough to start a fusion reaction.
Ion or solar sail could be good way to work up to ramjet speeds, though a healthy chemical rocket boost and a slingshot manouver(sp?) to pass nearer the sun where the hydrogen density is high could work also.

Mycroft

All made in taiwan

[Anonymous Coward]

"American components, Russian components, all made in Taiwan!"

If I May Make a Suggestion

[crymeph0]

Earlier today on Spaceflightnow (the quote seems to be gone in the current version of the story), the project leader was quoted as saying something like "there is a significant chance of failure". Similarly, the leader of the ill-fated Beagle 2 Mars lander publicly stated that he estimated the chances of success at about 50-50. I think we could all waste a lot less time if we just ignored missions whose own leaders inspire that much confidence. In space, you have zero tolerance for error, so what may seem like a fairly small probability of failure to a dreamer, in all likelihood means certain doom. I hate being this negative, but people think they can launch just any old septic tank into orbit and get back all this wonderful confirmation of their ideas. No lie, as soon as I read the quote from the leader of this solar sail mission, I gave up, before it was even launched.

Launched from a Russian sub? Re:"Bummer"

[darkonc]

There are a few explanations here:

• The secret remenants of the US 'star wars' program decided it was a 'terrorist act' and shot it down (and now they've realized that they can't even boast of this 'success').
• The russians forgot to disable the 'stealth' features of the missile.
• The launch was on paper only. They didn't expect people to actually check the results.
• It was fueled with hydrogen Peroxide and alcohol... too much of the alcohol was saved to celebrate the successful launch.
• Translation error in the instruction list. ("Oh, this pin!")
• Are you aware that Russians use metric?

Gotta be said.

[Cervantes]

I'll probably get modded down for this, but...

The Project Operations Assistant.
Let's review:
Sexy foreign (to me) accent... check
Geek... check
Cute... check
Knows how to blog... check
Plays with models all day long ... check
Gets to work with stuff that makes a REALLY BIG BOOM... check

Can take a joke... we'll see. :)

Re:Gotta be said.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it didn't "got" to be said. Shut your moustached cock-gobbler, you fucking eskimo.

Re:Gotta be said.

[Cervantes]

Yeah, yeah, it did "got" to be said, eh? Silly ACs, eh, I'd shove my toque up your backside if I hadn't left it upstairs on the chesterfield while watching the CBC.

If I didn't know better, I'd say I have a bitter foe. :)

Re:Gotta be said.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand you with that cock stuck in your mouth.

Re:Gotta be said.

[Cervantes]

Yeouch!

You talk to your mother with that potty mouth?

Actuallly, you probably say the exact same thing to her...

Maybe they should search for it on eBay...

[Anonymous Coward]

Link for those too young to remember.

IT'S ALIVE

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

Signal has been received.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4724348

Re:IT'S ALIVE

[laejoh]

We get signal!
What?

Firszt drunk post from dc

[istartedi]

really. probably a very regretable action next morning. but hwat esle is ther eto do with ca computer when drunk?

Latest news

[Capt'n Hector]

It appears the spacecraft is still alive, but in a lower orbit than expected. Here is the article.

developing story - craft detected

[wronski]

This is just in on http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/06/21/russia.co smos.reut/index.html/

PASADENA, California (Reuters) -- Cosmos 1, the first solar sail-powered spacecraft, appears to be "alive" and sending signals to tracking stations but could be in a lower orbit than planned, said mission experts in California, late on Tuesday.
Telemetry data received by three tracking stations in the Pacific Ocean, Russia and the Czech Republic seemed to show that Cosmos 1 made it into orbit, mission staff at the Planetary Society said.
Mission controllers discovered after reviewing telemetry data from the stations that the craft had signaled its passage during what had been believed to be several hours of radio silence, said Planetary Society co-founder Bruce Murray.
"The good news is we have reason to believe it's alive and in orbit," Murray said. "The bad news is we don't know where it is."

Re:developing story - craft detected

[Anonymous Coward]

its having lunch with me

That reminds me...

[stevelinton]

.... of a comment by a Pentagon spokesman after yet another failed anti-missile test: "you have to remember this IS rocket science!"

Alternative for satellite tracking and control

[XNormal]

Don't use ground tracking stations- let the satellite calculate its own position using GPS and then report it through a satellite network.

It's cheaper, and should provide continuous tracking and control anywhere.

I think a standard INMARSAT-C terminal could be used for this purpose, as long as the local oscillator is replaced with a unit that uses the GPS signal to calculate the doppler vector to the satellite and apply a correction to the center frequency (Without doppler correction it would miss the 5kHz channel spacing by a few tens of kHZ!)

Re:Alternative for satellite tracking and control

[trosenbl]

For GPS tracking, you need to be inside the sphere of GPS satellites. This would only work for low orbits (within the 20,000 km radius of GPS satellites).

SF Chron / AP reporting signals heard

[KMSelf]

Mission controllers may have received signal from solar sail By JOHN ANTCZAK, Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, June 21, 2005
(06-21) 22:13 PDT Pasadena, Calif. (AP) --

Signals may have been detected from the Cosmos 1 solar sail spacecraft that lost communication during launch on a converted missile fired from a Russian submarine under the Barrents Sea, mission officials said late Tuesday night.

The news came after an all-day search for Cosmos 1, which is intended to demonstrate that a spacecraft can be propelled by the pressure of light from the sun. If it is confirmed that the signals detected by three ground stations did come from Cosmos 1, it means that the craft did achieve orbit, said mission official Jim Cantrell.

...

Spaceflight.com adds:

Update for June 22 @ 1 a.m. EDT: Mission controllers revealed a short time ago that weak blips of data believed transmitted from the Cosmos 1 spacecraft have been found in recordings at tracking station passes immediately after launch. The Planetary Society originally said that no signals were heard. If the new revelation is true, it suggests that the solar sail did reach some sort of orbit around Earth despite what Russian media reports indicate was a rocket engine problem during ascent. However, the U.S. military's space tracking network has not found the craft and its current orbit is unknown. "So now we search. It could take days to find," the Society said in a statement.

And NASA says...

[The Wooden Badger]

Thanks for taking the heat off of us for a while.

Either that or: at least our's fail after they get somewhere.

You have to love russian engineering...

[smoany]

From the story:

the first stage engine experienced "a spontaneous stoppage" 83 seconds into launch. The vehicle was allowed to continue flying because it lacked a destruct system. But there has been no further confirmation of the report.

I just love that. The vehicle was "allowed" to continue to fly, because there's no way in hell they could stop it... Oops.

Well, I hope it's doing ok, wherever it is.

Newsflash: it's live and in orbit!

[YA_Python_dev]

Check out the latest updates!

They have received a brief signal from maybe three ground stations, and the last one was Panska Ves: if this is true then the spacecraft must have reached orbit and not having done only a long suborbital jump to crash in the Pacific.

It's probably in a slightly wrong orbit: this explains the problems in locating and communicating with it.

If in the end this turn out to be a problem with the cheap Russian launcher (probably the upper stage underperformed), maybe the next time can be a good idea to buy a few kilograms aboard an Ariane 5 as an auxiliary payload (just like Smart 1, which was launched together with two big satellites): it's worth every euro of it, and will give them an higher (although highly elliptic) orbit, which is good for a big solar sail to reduce the atmospheric drag.

Anyway: keep your fingers crossed, this may still be a success!

Not all random numbers.

[RoverDaddy]

Seems to me the oddball units in the English system were chosen because they make it possible to divide the larger units in lots of ways. There's usually some multiple of 60 involved because you can divide 60 by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15. Factor out one mile = 5280 feet = 60 * 88. The 88 part might be oddball: perhaps it makes the mile close to some distance that was significant to somebody way way back.

Anyway, you're mixing systems. What do cubits have to do with the English system?

Signal Reported!

[Anonymous Coward]

Washington Post is reporting scientists may have detected signals from the craft, but is off course in lower orbit. The Planetary Society logs does not have any reference yet to this.

Does this kind of propulsion works AT ALL!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It still amazes me that no one has tried a small scale test of solar sails with a vacuum and a laser (Some tests were performed but they all seem to focus on the problem of deployment, NOT propulsion). Especially as some people believe that the basic physics of it is wrong http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3895 Basically the question is, if the photon provides energy to the sail then the photon must lose energy. So what happens to the photon? If the sail is a perfect mirror then the photon must leave it with the same colour (freq/wavelength) as it hit it. And according to Einstien the speed of light doesn't change. So if the photon has the same amount of energy and speed when it leaves the sail as it did when it arrived, which energy is being used to power the ship?

They seem to have "found it"

[bigbug]

El Reg repots that

However, after some hours, tracking stations in Russia, the Czech Republic and the Pacific Ocean all reported faint signals from the craft.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/22/solarsail_ signal_spotted/

Re:They seem to have "found it"

[It doesn't come easy]

The scientists said they would ask US Strategic Command, normally charged with spotting incoming missiles, or other sky-based threats, for help in tracking down their spacecraft.

SAC: Unidentified incoming...ready all missiles...fire!!!
***WHAAMMMM***
SAC: Threat eliminated.

Scientists: SAC, you haven't seen our spacecraft, have you? It would sort of look like an ICBM fired by a Russian sub...

It's crashed

[FartingTowels]

Acording to latest news, the sail crashed:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050622/ap_on_sc/solar _sail;_ylt=AmNvcJYpkMGq0kI.vYvCMlqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDM TA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

Crash and burn....

[wpiman]

Ok- so apparently this thing crashed. What I want to know is why is this thing being launched off of a Soviet submarine- or any submarine? Is seems like if you were going to perform a difficult task such as putting a new type of craft into orbit- it might make more sense to do it somewhere where the people who worked on it could do a last minute check of everything. If so- it might be nice to do it in a place where there was room for everyone. ie. not a submarinepThe only advntage I can see is when and if a launch goes bad- the debris lands in the sea- away from people (albeit harder to recover). However, the same thing happens at Cape Canaveral. Sure- Russia is probably a cheaper place to launch from- but surely light populated areas of Siberia would work just as well.

Re:Crash and burn....

[ShoobieRat]

Following that logic, we should recall all our nuclear submarines and make their missiles land-based, so they can be continually checked to make sure they function when needed.

Look, these people did their job the best they could. The thing was checked thoroughly before they packed it up. Subs are great ways to deploy small rockets, as they can be positioned in the most effective places on the globe for the best launch results, vs a land based platform that is stuck in one spot and limited to land.

This isn't the first time a submarine was used to launch a satellite into orbit, and not just the Russians, either. We've done it too.

The truth of the matter is that shyt happens, and it happened. We can only wait to see how things turn out.

Re:Crash and burn....

[bluGill]

Well latter updates suggest it didn't crash...

When doing a launch you want to be on the equator, and high. (for typical orbits, there are orbits where you want to be other places, but I'll ignore them for not) Russia doesn't come close to the equator. Siberia is closer to the North Pole than the Equator.

No mountain in Russia is big enough to make up for the distance from the equator. Russia does however have many submarines which can surface at any on the ocean, including the equator. (Not to mention getting a launch pad built on a mountain, and getting the rocket there isn't easy)

As for why subs, not ships, remember this goes back to the cold war. Ships are easy to track, spy satellites can see them, even after images are degraded to civilian levels. Submarines often stay underwater for 6 months at a time. Communication is generally done by ELF (extra low frequency - 5-60Hz or so) radios which are hard to do directional location on. In the event of a real war they can destroy the enemy after your country was destroyed. Mutually assured destruction, and even if you destroy all the land based missiles before they can launch there is enough plenty of time for the sub to get revenge. (Thank God it never came to that)

If Russia was to start a launch pad from scratch they would consider doing it on a ship. However they already have the subs.

Not quite true

[denjin]

While lots of stuff is metric now...

Most people use the "English" system for distances anyway. No one I know uses km, they all say miles.

And then a lot of people also use things like pints, and then at the same time liters, etc. But, yeah, they have much more metric stuff in daily use.

3 Words: Ernst Stavro Blofeld

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon this is obvious:
The sail was hijacked by an international, soon to be interplanetary, gangster why else would something as exotic and high concept as a solar sail spacecraft vanish in such a remote and exotic location as the Kamchatka peninsula?

It may or may not have succeeded

[locokamil]

Looks like the mission got off to a rocky start: Solar sail space launch failed.

For those of you unwilling to read the article, it basically says that the Russian rocket carrying the spacecraft malfunctioned and didn't reach its planned orbit. The solar sail craft appears to be in a lower orbit, unharmed.

uuumm yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

The Cosmos 1 sail was launched at 15:46:09 EDT (19:46:09 UTC) on June 21, 2005.

At first, the first few ground stations did not report a signal from the spacecraft, raising fears that the spacecraft was lost on launch. However, at 21:40 PDT (4:40 UTC, June 22), the Planetary Society put out the following press release
We have found what we believe are spacecraft signals in the data recorded at the tracking stations in Petropavlovsk, Kamchatka and Majuro, Marshall Islands. The review of data received at the tracking station in Panska Ves, Czech Republic also appears to indicate a spacecraft signal. If confirmed, these data will indicate that Cosmos 1 made it to orbit," albeit possibly an incorrect orbit.
As of 18:00 June 21 PDT (1:00 June 22 UTC), the Russian news agency ITAR-TASS has reported that the launch vehicle carrying Cosmos 1 failed 83 seconds after liftoff

Gone with the wind

[Frantactical Fruke]

Blown away by a freak solar storm, it's now racing away from Earth at 0.1 light speed, its sails in tatters, due to pass Alpha Centauri in a century or so.

What can I say, I'm an amateur science fiction writer. Those little pesky things called 'facts' don't really bother me...

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[WillAffleckUW]

Actually, I'm betting that this time it was due to a spelling error. The sub that launched the Volna rocket was the Borisoglebsk, The first receiving station was at Petropavlovsk on the Kamchatka penninsula. The temporary ground station to pick it up next was on Majuro. Then it will next contact Panska Ves in the Czech republic. It's not until the ground stations at the Tarusa and Bear Lakes that the spelling becomes sufferable. :)

Oops, comrade! I said LEFT at Borisoglebsk, not LET IT CRASH at Borisoglebsk ...

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[Anonymous Coward]

It just seems strange to me that after winning independence from Britain and even rejecting a good deal of proper English (particularly in the spelling of many words) to come up with American English, you would continue using the measurement system of the culture you shed and rejected.

It's like half-assed pride.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[WillAffleckUW]

Actually, Jimmy Carter signed SALT II. [wikipedia.org]

SALT III, SALT II - who cares, it still is why the rockets (ICBMs) were available to be bought cheap - they have to destroy them if they don't use them.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was no SALT III. Not that I can remember/find, anyway.

I love Wikipedia.

FoxNews

[systemofadown]

Never thought I'd see the day a FoxNews acticle was linked from /.

Re:Did they program it in miles again?

[BillyBlaze]

America is the worlds largest Superpower. We'll do what we want. You can keep your damn metric system. We'll keep doing just fine running things our way.

I was proud to be an American, until reading that from a compatriot...

• The Imperial system blows chuncks.
• Your attitute, not "our freedom," is why everyone hates us.
• The Mars Climate Orbiter mixup was not between miles and kilometers but between pound-seconds and Newton-seconds, which are units of impulse, which you probably have never even heard of, you retard.