Let us assume that the roles were reversed. Let us assume that Americans were 'stealing' Indian jobs. Would that make you happy? Before you say "Yes", consider this. Americans would have buy Indian sodas, watch Indian movies, listen to Indian music and drive around in Indian cars. Currently, that is what is happening.
You are very happy as long as your company manufactures something that the rest of the world uses. You don't think of yourself as stealing another person's job. After all, all the bastards in Microsoft are stealing jobs from the rest of the world. Each country could have its own OS market, Office software market and so on.
I don't know where your arrogance comes from, but why do you assume that all software has be to be made in USA and bought by others? If you stop outsourcing, your job will not be any safer because your company will become weaker and a stronger European or Indian software market will evolve.
I know I see these posts every few days, but I am still amazed at how dense some people are. So you want all the products to be manufactured in USA by US labor force and the entire world should be the consumer. That actually sounds fair to you?
Those who protest outsourcing should also protest the export of goods from our country. After all, by manufacturing and shipping our products, we are depriving foreign workers from making these products in their own country.
I am as much threatened by outsourcing as you, but I also understand that there are various roles in a marketplace - producer, consumer and labor. Americans do not have a God given right to be any of these.
The truth is that India is able to get all outsourcing projects simply because the country has been mismanaged all these years. All they are really selling is their poverty! Think about it. If all other countries became extremely rich and USA became extremely poor, we would be the recepients of this "favorable trend". Would you prefer that situation?
Why India? Even in USA, say Texas, if I go and whack someone cow or dog, the owner will not be tolerant. In fact, if I hurt a dog, I could go to jail in America. Even if you yourself own the animal, you have no right to hurt it. From your ignorant statement, it is obvious that you know nothing about India. For your information, killing a cow is not illegal in India and there are many people who eat beef. Your cocky ignorance does not make you correct.
India. How many countries do you know that has a different language for each state (not dialects, actual languages)? How many countries are the birthplace of half a dozen major religions, all of which have co-existed peacefully for thousands of years? USA of today is much like India of about 5 centuries ago.
You are 100% wrong about affirmative action. India, especially the south where most of the jobs are going, has an unbelievable high amount of affirmative action. In Tamil Nadu (Chennai), for instance, at least 70% of college seats and government are reserved for the lower castes, to compensate for India's age-old, complex caste system.
Actually, most of the Indian software jobs are coding and testing. Communicating is left to a very small percentage of people.
Actually, Edmund Hillary did not say "because it is there". He said "Well, we knocked the bastard off !" It was George Mallory who said that, long before Hillary (and Tenzing Norgay, who white people always forget) climbed everest. Just FYI.
Anyone tried musicrebellion.com? Most songs are only 10 cents and the price goes up with demand. I think that is a neat idea, making popular music slightly costlier than niche music. Why should there be a flat rate?
In related news, India has decided to patent its invention of zero and the place value number system, which is the basis for decimal, octal, hexadecimal and binary number systems.
Unless all computers in the world switch to Roman numerals soon, India will become the world's wealthiest nation soon!
Why should taxpayer money be used for this? I am sure there are millions of citizens who think this is a good idea. Why can't they get together and fund a private expedition?
I am not sure whether any of this will benefit anyone. It is high time we got away from the socialist model of paying high taxes and hoping that the government spends it wisely!
I did read the article, but my point was not about the content of the article (you can get that if you RTFPosting). The other replies seem to have gotten what I was trying to ask.
I never claimed to be better than him (or anyone for that matter), so I don't understand your point about me. Again, RTFP.
In this society, we seem to be enamored by CEOs. It all started with Iacocca, I think. Even if they successively ran companies into the ground, wasted opportunities and hurt emnployees and shareholders due to mismanagement, we still consider them to be larger than life. If you employed someone who failed (by all metrics) in the tasks that you gave him, is this how you would approach him?
I see no real insight in his interview, nor is he currently in the news for doing something "innovative". The magazine simply knew his name recognition among geeks and interviewed him.
He started two companies, both of which are down in the dump. Why are people still concerned about his opinion?
I guess management is the only place where successive failures enhance your fame. If he were an ordinary "worker", with that record, he would be out on the streets.
Some country, say Elbonia, legalizes something that is illegal in USA. Say, child pron. I know it is a stretch but bear with me.
Should American ISPs block this site or not? If not, given that the Web is a big, linked document, an American citizen might land there and thereby, commit a crime!!!
What is the correct, free response to such a scenario?
Go outside USA and you will find tons of such applications still being used.
Remember, only in the Western world is software/hardware cheap when measured against the cost of living.
In India, for example, a cheap PC would cost more than what most people earn in a month. I bet there would be many schools and homes with old PCs and software simply because it costs too much to upgrade.
I was surprised to see Tamil listed as one of the 500 dying languages. It is one of the official languages in four or five countries and is being actively used by millions of people! I wonder how they arrived at this list?
For those who don't know (which is almost all non-Tamilans), Tamil is considered one of the four oldest languages in the world and is spoken in India, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia and a few other countries.
What is to prevent a company from spinning off another company and giving over the code to that, just as it is approaching the threshold? The original company can reposition itself as something else and then GPL only a small, inconsequential portion of its source code!
I believe it will be difficult for a company that is making good money by selling proprietary software to suddenly turn open source.
A company going downhill (like Netscape) can do this though, because they have nothing to lose.
I think a successful company will try very hard to find loopholes and get around opening up their primary source of income. Also, if the company is public by that time, will the shareholders like it? Won't they desert the company en masse near the expiration date?
"Bottom line, the Sun's of the world can find qualified US workers, and they can afford to pay them, but they won't."
How do you define "afford to pay them"? If Sun can find people who will do the same job for less, why shouldn't they? After all, if the developers get another job with better pay, no one will begrudge them for switching companies! Why should companies be forced to pay more than what is necessary for them to get the job done?
When you buy something, do you choose the lowest priced goods that do what you need or do you buy higher priced "American" goods simply because you can afford them?
Anyone who has ever bought a foreign product (cars included) because it represents the best value, has no right to complain about foreign workers. The principles involved are the same.
I agree with you that the eventual goal is for everyone to be able to freely pursue whatever makes them happy - the constitution, in fact, guarantees it. And if a better standard of living makes you happy (I don't see why not), you should be free to pursue it.
But, the key word there is that you are "free to pursure" it, not that the government will ensure it. Then, we are straying into communism, which as we all know only lowers everyone's standard of living.
The question is - how can a US citizen improve his standard of living? Does he do that by improving self and his skills, by making himself indispensable to his organization based on his knowledge and capability and then demanding (and getting) a higher pay? Or does he do that by trying to reduce competition in the first place? This unfounded paranoia about foreign workers comes from many people choosing the second option, because that is an easier shortcut. Becoming better than the competition is harder than eliminating the competition.
If any American developer out there is under the impression that he is not in competition with developers from all over the globe, he is only deluding himself. Regardless of whether the foreign worker comes to the USA or stays where he is, he is a threat to the American worker, but in a good sense.
The current H1 system is stupid. We have both commented upon this in the past, in an earlier thread. It creates a H1 worker, who is many ways a slave to his company. Remember that the worker doesn't get the visa, the company gets it. With this control over his living and absence of freedom to work, the company is then able to underpay him and that is what hurts the American worker.
The problem will not be solved by eliminating foreign workers, but by "freeing" them and ensuring that they also demand the prevailing market rate. Then, the companies will choose only based on skills and isn't that what we all want?
Many of the comments in this thread really disappoint me. On various other topics, post after post deals with freedom in someway on/. Freedom from monopolies, freedom from buggy, closed source software, freedom from restrictive patents, freedom from any kind of government activity that restricts freedom of technology.
It is perhaps a sign of the times that the same principles do not apply when it comes to immigrant workers.
It is astonishing to me that the same people who want free, open markets when it comes to selling American products abroad (including software), want a protected, closed market for employment in US alone. Why this hypocrisy?
For those who argue that every foreign worker who gets a job is taking away an American's job, can I say the same thing about American exports? Everytime a foreigner (individual or company) buys software from America, many jobs are taken away from that country! After all, if the same software had been written in that country, many of them would have been employed!!!
Let us do this - let us stop all immigration and close the borders completely. All jobs will go only to (native-born) Americans. Hooray! However, we should also stop exporting software to other countries so that they can enjoy the same benefits. How about that?
Seriously though, if you want foreign workers to demand a higher pay, abolish H1B visas and other such bureaucracies. Give a green card to anyone who comes to work in America. This way, without the noose of H1 visa, foreign workers will also demand a higher pay as per free market dictates.
Slashdot Mirror
You are very happy as long as your company manufactures something that the rest of the world uses. You don't think of yourself as stealing another person's job. After all, all the bastards in Microsoft are stealing jobs from the rest of the world. Each country could have its own OS market, Office software market and so on.
I don't know where your arrogance comes from, but why do you assume that all software has be to be made in USA and bought by others? If you stop outsourcing, your job will not be any safer because your company will become weaker and a stronger European or Indian software market will evolve.
Those who protest outsourcing should also protest the export of goods from our country. After all, by manufacturing and shipping our products, we are depriving foreign workers from making these products in their own country.
I am as much threatened by outsourcing as you, but I also understand that there are various roles in a marketplace - producer, consumer and labor. Americans do not have a God given right to be any of these.
The truth is that India is able to get all outsourcing projects simply because the country has been mismanaged all these years. All they are really selling is their poverty! Think about it. If all other countries became extremely rich and USA became extremely poor, we would be the recepients of this "favorable trend". Would you prefer that situation?
Why India? Even in USA, say Texas, if I go and whack someone cow or dog, the owner will not be tolerant. In fact, if I hurt a dog, I could go to jail in America. Even if you yourself own the animal, you have no right to hurt it. From your ignorant statement, it is obvious that you know nothing about India. For your information, killing a cow is not illegal in India and there are many people who eat beef. Your cocky ignorance does not make you correct.
India. How many countries do you know that has a different language for each state (not dialects, actual languages)? How many countries are the birthplace of half a dozen major religions, all of which have co-existed peacefully for thousands of years? USA of today is much like India of about 5 centuries ago.
Actually, most of the Indian software jobs are coding and testing. Communicating is left to a very small percentage of people.
Actually, Edmund Hillary did not say "because it is there". He said "Well, we knocked the bastard off !" It was George Mallory who said that, long before Hillary (and Tenzing Norgay, who white people always forget) climbed everest. Just FYI.
Anyone tried musicrebellion.com? Most songs are only 10 cents and the price goes up with demand. I think that is a neat idea, making popular music slightly costlier than niche music. Why should there be a flat rate?
My post, on the other hand, is off-topic. But, I have karma to burn!!!
Unless all computers in the world switch to Roman numerals soon, India will become the world's wealthiest nation soon!
I am not sure whether any of this will benefit anyone. It is high time we got away from the socialist model of paying high taxes and hoping that the government spends it wisely!
I guess that if you ran that script again, you would find there are no four letter domains available anymore.
Would be interesting to find out what was the last four letter domain name to be taken.
I know this is a useless post, but I have Karma to burn!!!
I never claimed to be better than him (or anyone for that matter), so I don't understand your point about me. Again, RTFP.
In this society, we seem to be enamored by CEOs. It all started with Iacocca, I think. Even if they successively ran companies into the ground, wasted opportunities and hurt emnployees and shareholders due to mismanagement, we still consider them to be larger than life. If you employed someone who failed (by all metrics) in the tasks that you gave him, is this how you would approach him?
I see no real insight in his interview, nor is he currently in the news for doing something "innovative". The magazine simply knew his name recognition among geeks and interviewed him.
I guess management is the only place where successive failures enhance your fame. If he were an ordinary "worker", with that record, he would be out on the streets.
It is also a republican right ;-)
What the hell, I have karma to waste!
What is the correct, free response to such a scenario?
Remember, only in the Western world is software/hardware cheap when measured against the cost of living.
In India, for example, a cheap PC would cost more than what most people earn in a month. I bet there would be many schools and homes with old PCs and software simply because it costs too much to upgrade.
For those who don't know (which is almost all non-Tamilans), Tamil is considered one of the four oldest languages in the world and is spoken in India, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia and a few other countries.
I believe it will be difficult for a company that is making good money by selling proprietary software to suddenly turn open source.
A company going downhill (like Netscape) can do this though, because they have nothing to lose.
I think a successful company will try very hard to find loopholes and get around opening up their primary source of income. Also, if the company is public by that time, will the shareholders like it? Won't they desert the company en masse near the expiration date?
How do you define "afford to pay them"? If Sun can find people who will do the same job for less, why shouldn't they? After all, if the developers get another job with better pay, no one will begrudge them for switching companies! Why should companies be forced to pay more than what is necessary for them to get the job done?
When you buy something, do you choose the lowest priced goods that do what you need or do you buy higher priced "American" goods simply because you can afford them?
Anyone who has ever bought a foreign product (cars included) because it represents the best value, has no right to complain about foreign workers. The principles involved are the same.
I am sorry about my earlier post, I thought your post was a reply to mine and got confused. Sorry about that again.
How exactly does your data about Aus and UK immigration make my post a load of crap? Please clarify.
But, the key word there is that you are "free to pursure" it, not that the government will ensure it. Then, we are straying into communism, which as we all know only lowers everyone's standard of living.
The question is - how can a US citizen improve his standard of living? Does he do that by improving self and his skills, by making himself indispensable to his organization based on his knowledge and capability and then demanding (and getting) a higher pay? Or does he do that by trying to reduce competition in the first place? This unfounded paranoia about foreign workers comes from many people choosing the second option, because that is an easier shortcut. Becoming better than the competition is harder than eliminating the competition.
If any American developer out there is under the impression that he is not in competition with developers from all over the globe, he is only deluding himself. Regardless of whether the foreign worker comes to the USA or stays where he is, he is a threat to the American worker, but in a good sense.
The current H1 system is stupid. We have both commented upon this in the past, in an earlier thread. It creates a H1 worker, who is many ways a slave to his company. Remember that the worker doesn't get the visa, the company gets it. With this control over his living and absence of freedom to work, the company is then able to underpay him and that is what hurts the American worker.
The problem will not be solved by eliminating foreign workers, but by "freeing" them and ensuring that they also demand the prevailing market rate. Then, the companies will choose only based on skills and isn't that what we all want?
It is perhaps a sign of the times that the same principles do not apply when it comes to immigrant workers.
It is astonishing to me that the same people who want free, open markets when it comes to selling American products abroad (including software), want a protected, closed market for employment in US alone. Why this hypocrisy?
For those who argue that every foreign worker who gets a job is taking away an American's job, can I say the same thing about American exports? Everytime a foreigner (individual or company) buys software from America, many jobs are taken away from that country! After all, if the same software had been written in that country, many of them would have been employed!!!
Let us do this - let us stop all immigration and close the borders completely. All jobs will go only to (native-born) Americans. Hooray! However, we should also stop exporting software to other countries so that they can enjoy the same benefits. How about that?
Seriously though, if you want foreign workers to demand a higher pay, abolish H1B visas and other such bureaucracies. Give a green card to anyone who comes to work in America. This way, without the noose of H1 visa, foreign workers will also demand a higher pay as per free market dictates.
Since it also guarantees freedom of religious speech, does that mean that any religious body can call me up and solicit conversion to their religion?
Freedom of speech is for everybody, not just politicians.
Any good reasons why politicians are exempt? I don't want unsolicited calls from anybody. Period.