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Stallman Goes to India
SureshD writes "The Hindu is reporting on a 40 minute long meeting between Richard Stallman and the Indian President - Dr APJ Abdul Kalam. After the interview, RMS said that the President was 'receptive' to his views that development of software should be seen as a political and social issue and not just from the technological point of view. Interestingly, the article mentions that the President had prepared for the meeting by downloading and reading Stallman's biography (Free as in Freedom) from the Internet."
..is when Stallman promised the president a totaly no-cost, no-strings-attached copy of GCC for every Indian citizen. Even Bill Gates couldn't match that incredibly generous offer!!
By Sandeep Dikshit
NEW DELHI, JAN. 31. The President, A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, last Thursday played host to two radically divergent poles of the global software industry.
The first to meet the President was Richard Stallman, the leading light of the free and open source software (FOSS) movement.
Ironically, the people waiting in the Presidential anteroom for the interaction to end were people from Microsoft.
Dr. Stallman has devoted his life to countering Microsoft's policy of selling software that cannot be changed because its code is kept a secret. It also cannot be shared because of licensing restrictions.
Talking to The Hindu, Dr. Stallman said the President was "receptive'' to his views that development of software should be seen as a political and social issue and not just from the technological point of view.
At a meeting that lasted 40 minutes, they discussed the need to give people an alternative way to use computers by popularising open source software (OSS).
"The President said this was a beautiful concept,'' said Dr. Stallman. Mr. Kalam had prepared for the meeting by downloading Dr. Stallman's biography from the Internet which in keeping with the FOSS movement guru's philosophy is available free of cost.
The two also went over several common interests, including the use of software in space programming. For the first time, the Mars Rovers vehicle is using OSS and it is reported to be functioning well.
They also reminisced on the development work on several software programmes in which both had taken interest.
Besides explaining the political philosophy of FOSS movement, Dr. Stallman said he also spoke to the President about the real intention behind Microsoft's plan to spread the use of computers in schools which was "akin to the colonial system of recruiting the local elite to help keep others in line.''
"I hope my discussion had some influence on the President and he will be able to resist being used that way.''
Dr. Stallman gave up a cushy teaching job in a prestigious American university after he perceived that "computer colonisation'' was spreading rapidly.
"There were only two options. Either I stopped using computers or I help everybody to escape. I chose the latter,'' he said.
He explained the concept behind FOSS. The word "free'' did not mean giving the software gratis.
Rather, it denoted the freedom to control the computer because the seller of FOSS also provided the source code or the manner in which a particular software was constructed.
"This way you can see how it works, you can change it and also share the software.''
By taking to FOSS, India would be able to cut down on the outflow of foreign exchange which was going to become very large in the near future.
So far, Microsoft licences were not being forced on individuals, but in the coming days, proprietary software companies would make it impossible for individuals to make copies clandestinely.
"The flood (outflow of foreign exchange) will then become a torrent,'' he said. Free software, in contrast, would encourage local information technology developers to innovate and adapt the software constantly. The result will be that money will circulate in the local economy, he said.
Copyright 2000 - 2003 The Hindu
I didn't know the Indian government was hiring
I think one must look in terms of governmental actions on OSS in such a strategic light. Kalam, a figurehead king, may be a true believer, but insofar as his actions on software goes, he's being used as a pawn to gain better licensing terms from microsoft.
Possibly, with GPL, India may be turning the braindrain the other way round. You often need somewhat mature code to play with in the beginning of your career, and, after all, there are hundreds of sourceforge/freshmeat projects which need to be better maintained.
Hi, Thank you for calling Dell technical support. My name is Richard. How may I help you?
"Interestingly, the article mentions that the President had prepared for the meeting by downloading and reading Stallman's biography (Free as in Freedom) from the Internet."
HOw is that interesting? In case you don't know, every politician does that or is prepared by advisors before plunging into any meeting. Or is that interesting because he usually does not do that? Maybe he needs someone like Condoleezza Rice to chew and spit the stuff to him, so he can better use his time....
What is RMS opinion on outsourcing ?
And what about the role of OSS in this setting ?
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
That is not to say Kalam isn't important, just that he mostly just gives speeches, not makes decisions.
Yeah, but don't you think India has enough stinky long haired 60s throwbacks, both local and from the West?
the President gave him some tips on what shampoo to use..after all both the President and Stallman a long long mane ;)
India's tech is booming. Japan has all the cutting edge electronics and technologies. China is destined to be the next super power. Korea is trying to get nukes. The USA has mad cow disease, a puppet for a president, a huge debt, a slow economy and we're spending billions more on rebuilding a country that we destroyed while looking for weapons that didn't exist. Times are changing. Maybe considering India as a future isn't such a bad idea.
Gates' view towards india is simple: Get the 15% of developers to use MS, and that'll provide the basis for MS.
Interestingly, unlike in the rest of asia, software piracy is never an issue with MS although software piracy is rampant...
I wasn't aware that this was part of the philosophy.
For the sake of open source diplomacy, I hope he didn't sing for the PM.
In any event, great to see open source has reached this level. Won't be long before managers have to justify their platform decisions again.
Back in the early-mid 90s (when I was last paying attention to the issue), Indian universities used to use Unix a lot. Perhaps the PC has crowded out that tradition, but we were well-positioned there for a while. Perhaps we can get that back.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Hmm... I heard that bovine livestock was sacred in India... maybe this is why India respect him:
The Artwork of Jin Wicked || A portrait of Richard Stallman
henry -- the human evolution news relay
Isn't "receptive to views" a term that cult recruiters use? ;)
--
The last digit of pi is four.
The Indian President is tech-savvy and has on earlier occasions tried to promote Linux. He was really a rocket scientist before he was appointed the President.
In May 2003, he gave a speech in which he said "said it is 'unfortunate' that proprietary software - such as Windows - is so popular and has called for broader adoption of open source products." More details here - ZDNet UK - News - Indian President adds salt to MS wounds
From the article, notes on a conversation with Bill Gates:
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
Enough of his friends must have yelled at him about it, but over the last 5 years when I've seen RMS, he's almost always had clean hair (or been-on-airplanes-too-long hair), and clean clothes.
Dr.Kalam's website at http://presidentofindia.nic.in/ , runs on Linux and Apache . Undoubtedly one of the most qualified persons for the job, he headed India's defence research body, the DRDO and was one of the key members of the team planning and implementing India's second round of nuclear tests in 1998 (India tested its first nuclear device in 1974).
Also a bachelor like India's executive head,the Prime Minister.
I found this section interesting:
Besides explaining the political philosophy of FOSS movement, Dr. Stallman said he also spoke to the President about the real intention behind Microsoft's plan to spread the use of computers in schools which was "akin to the colonial system of recruiting the local elite to help keep others in line.''
Nothing like digging up the ghosts of the past to help sell an idea! It seemed a smart analogy to me.
Perhaps someone should speak to the congress about Free Software in these terms - "Free software is like allowing your colony/company the independence to rule as it likes, instead of all your money being shipped to an uncaring vendor/government far away from the day-to-day concerns of your operation yet supposedly providing you relevant services to the work at hand."
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I have to say that this is kinda interesting and rather comforting to hear the Indian government's interest in the idealogies of open source, ala RMS. I work for a rather large corporation in the US that makes lots of processors, and the going jokes always involve something with our jobs migrating to India. In any case, it'd be nice to see that open source is embraced there. They have some excellent programmers (who work something like 16-20 hours a day) who, if applied to open source, could really contribute to the movement. Aligned with the fact that Bangalore recently surpassed Silicon Valley with the greatest number of technology jobs, let's just hope those jobs are working on the things that will benefit the OSDN.
If this means the addition of a sitar track in "The Free Software Song", I'm all for it.
There is free as in free to do things without interference, and free as in getting something for nothing.
They're not the same thing.
Stallman basically told the the president of India that they could have and distribute programmers for free, rather than have to pay for some evil, greedy programmers who won't even show you their goods. Stallman's programmers come from all around the world and are completely open. His only requirement is that the terms of their release and distribution be kept in their chest pocket, and that the president give them credit if he modifies them in any way.
Until Slashdot fixes the funny modifier, use insightful or interesting. The poster knows your intentions.
The sheer mentioning of India or China seems to make the average american slashdot tech rave like a white trash untermensh, that has resently been analprobed by the UFO.. What is it with you guys? Try to control your paranoia.
What can you say or do in a forty minute long meeting? Why on earth would such a thing be news worthy, and get a reportage in any "Times", or on Slashdot? What astonishingly desperate personality culting is Slashdot pursuing today?
Personality cults ARE NOT "news for nerds, stuff that matters." Normal couch potatoes care about personality cults; they are not an aspect of nerdness.
Why don't you editors take a hard look at yourselves instead pandering to your heros, for once?
I'm sure Indian programmers are just falling all over themselves to produce software for no pay. Ditto for Indian software companies. Now if you mean Free as in "Open", you might be talking business..
A very old proverb says that "it's hard to be a prophet in one's own land."
For some reason, Richard Stallman is demonized in the US as some eccentric loony. Yet the rest of the world actually holds him in very high regard. I have had the fortune of listening to him speak on the issue of software patents and not only was he articulate but he was able to appeal to a large audience made up of people from all walks of life.
Even if you disagree with specific positions that RMS might take, you have to give the guy credit for standing his ground. To me the GPL is one of the cornerstones of the free software movement and its cultural and social implications will reverberate for generations.
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
Hail RMS. Damnit this paint is sold, i want to buy it but it is sold. Why hath i forseen this?!
Stupid people say "if you're so smart how come you're not rich?"
Smart people say "because that wealth which you in your ignorance imagine has value has no actual value."
Perhaps because we've seen over a million jobs lost just after granting a roughly equal number of H1-B visas in one industry followed by our trade deficit doubling in less than two years. Yeah, that might be it.
Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean no one is out to get you.
(Slightly off topic, but related to the GPL).
As a programmer, how can I make a living from open-source software? If I have an idea, some code - and put together a product - how do I keep a roof over my head? The problem is that seems to have become impossible to launch a new software product.
* If you go commercial, nobody cares because a thousand open source alternatives will spring up.
* If you go commercial open source, one person will buy it - and everybody else will get it for free from them.
* If you go open source, nobody wants to pay for support.
My assertions are:
* Open source = good.
* Programming full-time = good (I was laid off at the end of January).
* Making a living from programming open source software full-time = ??? how ???
Slashdotters, help me here - how could I launch a new software product - that I open the source to under the GPL - yet still make enough money to pay my rent?
(Note that this product would be for end-users, corporations would not be interested - and charging for support and charging for special features would probably be impossible.)
Communism is not a bad word here. In fact there are a couple of states which have had communist governments for much of their existence. Naturally this contributes to linux's popularity. Now don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is that the idea of sharing appeals to communists.
Our president is a cool guy. As someone already pointed out, the president is not a political figure in India. But Kalam is a respected person and gives a lot of speeches and many people listen to him etc.
Linux usage in India is definitely rather high. The obvious reason is that there are more programmers ==> more nerds etc. But its far from the only reason. Even though unauthorized copying (I won't use the p-word) is very prevalent, those buying a branded PC will still have to pay for Windows. This is a big factor in the cost conscious Indian market. So in the last 8 months, the number of OEMs pre-loading linux has exploded. Today half the PC ads I see in the paper are MS-free! I can also feel the change at the grassroots level -- neighbors, tech support etc.
The future looks bright.
has no one else noticed the surname of the author?
By Sandeep Dikshit
I would almost say a this is a troll article if it wasn't so positive
Rus
CPanel + Root from $35/mo - 10% off with discount code SLASHDOT
You know, India's president is an engineering PhD. We have George Bush, a C student who had his wealthy family get him his position.
India puts a good deal of emphasis on producing engineers. Surprise -- India is improving its lot at a stunning rate.
Plenty of things are wrong with India, but we could take a lesson from it as well.
May we never see th
Since when has Stallman been a PhD? If he is, I must have never noticed. I was under the impression he had a BA in Physics. Also, you'd think in an article about RMS, they'd get it right, and refer to Free Software, rather than open source.
his views and leanings have a lot of bearing on the political decision-making process.
Abdul Kalam being a Jesuit Alumni, I would say that its basically the Jesuits which influence his views and leanings. Jesuits have a long history of being at the front of many important matters and are often found at influential positions.
Surely they (or someone in their hierarchies) recognize the significance of a certain philosophy, only they apply a worldview on a much larger picture than your average slashdotter does. It comes with their Cosmo-political thinking. It is funny to see what influence the Vatican can have over free source matters, at least in India.
The GPL is one of the most restrictive licenses software is published under.
If you call "This is mine, but you can use it for free to do anything you want. If you agree to share, it can be yours too." a restrictive license.
These hairy commie bastards are always up to something!
Root Mean Squared? Do the Indians still believe that sqrt(10) == pi ?
Is this a joke?
I wish he would stay there ;-)
Perhaps they should both go down the european route of letting the "first family" have a ceremonial role (the Bushes and the Kennedys could share the duties in the USA) and letting commoners be elected to the executive jobs.
Well of course he had Stallman's Bio -- Bill's Bio is '(C)2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved'.
ls
They are Native Americans!
Yes, but if the software is free you can't really save anything by outsourcing devlopment to India, can you?
OTOH, you *can* sell your consulting services to foreign governments and build long term relationships with future economic powerhouses.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Meeting of 2 guys with long hair
I'm not going to refute this post point by point, if only because anyone able to read a newspaper should be able to do so easily.
I shall, however, make the following suggestions to anyone who actually believes a word of the parent post:
1. Get the hell away from Slashdot and go get some news.
2. After that, go study some economics. In particular, you may wish to bone up on the fall of the Japanese economy.
3. Get updated on current political issues - and no, I'm not talking about what RMS is doing. You may well discover that outsourcing to India has become something of a political hot button, and that the US government at all levels is working on killing the practice.
4. Refresh yourself on the history of communism (pay attention to how many regimes are intact vs. how many are no longer with us.)
5. Discover China. They're not ascending, they're imploding.
Basically, come out of whatever idiot stupor you currently find yourself in and come sample a tasty dish I like to call reality.
I've been thinking about the question you raise for quite some time. Check out the Free Software Business Strategy Guide and the paper Market Economics of Peer-to-Peer Networks and of the Software Industry.
SOMEONE has to teach their president how to use Emacs Lisp!
I find it so interesting that so many /.'ers complain about outsourcing and the loss of American tech jobs (whether a legitimate complaint or not), yet...
Everyone seems so willing to make the argument other countries should not rely so much on foreign (American) software.
Wouldn't that mean the loss of more American tech jobs? Aren't those lines of thinking in conflict?
Or is it okay to lose tech jobs, as long as those jobs are Microsoft's, and somehow that won't affect other tech jobs.???
Of course they do.
And of course we don't.
The why of it is pretty easy to understand, if a bit politically incorrect.
In addition to holding the lion's share of the world wealth, we - surprise - own the vast majority of the global economy's intellectual property.
So long as there the world abides by our IP laws. And naturally, we here in the US are persuing a variety of methods to ensure that they do.
Why? Because IP is the foundation of the global economy. We have it, and they don't, and until that changes - never, for those of you who aren't paying attention - nations like France and India have to get down on thier knees and grovel.
Enter RMS. Who advocates giving US IP to everyone who wants it. An event that would sink this country forever.
Get it now?
Can someone please let me know how ISV's is going to survive when the OSS movement has conquered the world ?
Paypal "sponsor" button on everything?
Distributing source code will spell the death of the small and medium sized ISV's. If the source code is free, no one will pay for a pre-built copy (build and install process can be handled by almost anyone) and someone else than the original software author will profit on the service to support the software.
As I see it, this will only lead (in the long run) to a stagnation in software development.
Nixon going to China?
In other news, the Indian president announced that they'll from now on will go by the name GNU/India.
Vox is still struggling with understanding Mr. Stallman.
So how do you like free trade and globalisation these days?
Methinks you were trolled.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Thank you. If I were more informed I would have noticed I guess. :)
The USA does not have a "heriditary" head of state.
The US president is elected through democratic elections, although there are some who argue that the process is too much vested in special interests, the rich, and is fraught with corruption.
Much like Western Civilization, it remains a good idea. It's the execution of the concept that sucks.
And damn you for beating me to the GNU/India crack.
And a nation that ejected Britain, the most powerful empire in the world at the time from itself. I wouldn't sell them too short.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
RMS outsourced to India? OMG, what times we have to live in...
Stallman goes to China? There will happen good amount of talk about politics and software between RMS and Chinese government officials... but can Stallman tolerate his definition of freedom is different from Chinese one?
(Offtopic)e sidentofindia.nic.in) President's website was running MS windows sometime back. Now that runs on Linux.
According to netcraft (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.pr
Good work.
It's GNU/Linux dammit!
Okay, tax all my profits. I'll just shift them somewhere else.
I will pay the Indian contracting company $200k per programmer per year.
I won't make any profit, and the Indian company can make the profit.
Then the US gov can't tax any of my profit because I don't have any, and all the money goes offshore.
Perhaps because we've seen over a million jobs lost just after granting a roughly equal number of H1-B visas in one industry followed by our trade deficit doubling in less than two years. Yeah, that might be it.
Perhaps you should blame the employers who lobby for an expanded H1-B program and the politicians who they support, rather than blaming the immigrants who are seeking employment and free software advocates who have little or no effect on the H1-B situation.
Read, L
Who said anything about selling India short? If any short selling was going on, it was RMS who was the recipient. India will do fine...with or without RMS.
Is not only a doctor, but he actually can read? That's a step up from President Bush.
Heute die Welt, morgen das Sonnensystem!
Not that it is bad for jobs to be created in India ;)
I just think that there won't be much of a middle class left to buy stuff here.
photoplankton
Let's hope he stays there. Or bathes.
I wonder why RMS's website is down.
Please to be explaining.
The question was posed "why are Americans so paranoid." That is the answer to the question--without making any value judgment on the fact, it remains a fact that our net jobs lost stand in striking parallel to our doubled trade deficit. Every billion in increased trade deficit represents roughly 30,000 jobs. Do the math. 6 million jobs lost. Trade deficit increases by $200B. Coincidence? Most of us don't seem to think so.
From that point, yes, people are drawing the rather obvious conclusion that jobs have disappeared and reading the corporate press releases, we know where they are going. It may be a small piece of the economy, but for those who relied on it for their livings, it was a pretty damned important piece.
Personall, I *have* sent my opinion on this to my house representative--who, incidentally, is strongly on the side of labor--and both of my Senators. The fact that anyone does that or not is not an excuse to stop the debate. People are rightfully pissed off. If you're not, fine, but when someone asks the question "why are all of you so pissed off and paranoid" don't expect people to roll over and play dead. That there does seem to be that expectation is rather telling.
I hate reading Slashdot because of the preponderance of highly-modded "Funny" posts in every thread, and for the typically, grossly inaccurate "Insightful" mods. But seeing such posts get eviscerated and then stomped on sort of makes it all worthwhile. Please stay!
Check it out
RMS got a little mixed up about India. He thought the Gnu was holy instead of the cow.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I live in New York under a 43% marginal tax rate. About 30% of that pays for Social Security pensions. About 15% for the army and the rest for the crappy schools in my area, healthcare for the sick, lazy and lame and whatever else the gov't is giving away.
So don't tell me that there is no socialism in america.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
For those who read at thresholds above 0 and missed the AC reply, here's an editorialized summary.
... but you can take the code, add some additional functionality that is highly desired, keep the new source code a secret and profit from it. Perhaps even profit at the expense of the original authors, whose hard work you relied upon to enable your profitable enterprise. Why is preventing that wrong?
quoeth the OP: "I'm not saying sharing stuff is bad, I just want it to be fair" and "'Use a single GPL'd function and have to give away my entire source base' is another matter."
The AC in response hits the nail on the head: Here's a clue: the GPL is not taking away your freedom to use that library - it is giving you the freedom to use that library, if you agree not to take that freedom away from anyone else.
The single GPL function or library - that the OP wants to include in the large, hugely valuable pre-existing codebase - is copyrighted. It belongs to somebody else, until it passes into the public domain.
Other people use it for a price: they pay by agreeing to share any further modifications of it. So GPL software is rarely free as in beer. But that's not the point.
Again the OP "In addition, it's not a zero sum game, so if I 'steal' some of your GPL'd code, you still have it, so you have no grounds to bitch about me making it proprietary."
Again the parent AC's response is right on target: "You seem to think that because you can read the source code of a GPL library, and download it and link it to your program without paying a penny, that you should somehow have the "right" to do whatever you like with it."
Mozilla
Coffee -> Nose -> Monitor
Now my pants are soaked.
Thanks a lot.
Perhaps what is important is that rather than reading Sport Illustrated, the President of India actually has better things to read to remain an informed leader of his citizenry! As the president reads, so does the populace (SI vs stuff to think about). I remember being one of the few Americans in my more advanced chemistry classes, and some of the Chinese grad students actually asked me why I was so interested. If you want to know why the jobs are going overseas this would be a good place to start, since most of the growth will not be in the US.
... to say hello to my job while he's over there.
Otherwise they wouldn't have been forced to drastically lower the price of their offering.
That Microsoft is even able to change the price of their product so easily is a consequence of their monopoly control of the market.
Recall Thailand's Linux laptop project motivated MS to cut prices there. Needless to say, those kinds of prices were not available to buyers of Windows and Office in North America, Europe and Japan.
Probably one of the most overlooked aspects Microsoft's so-called Trusted Computing initiative (most people in this forum are afraid The Man will spy on them, erase their MP3's and make their old Word documents unreadable unless they keep current their Office subscription payments) is that by targeting contracts with defined individuals and machines, the commodity nature of its products is lessened (the software CD becomes non-transferrable)and it becomes even more feasible to discriminate in pricing than it is now.
Expect this development.
Having essentially conquered the market for desktop software Microsoft has to look at other alternatives for growth, which is what their shareholders demand.
But it is hard for Microsoft to grow now! Entering new markets is difficult for them because their actions will be scrutinized for unfair leveraging of their monopoly position. The remaining alternative is to adjust pricing to maximize revenue; get from each user what they can.
Thus, they might well charge a few rupees for their OS in India and hundreds of dollars for the same product in a large corporate environment in the United States.
With TCPA Windows, there will be no danger of the Indian licensee re-selling their copy of Windows to someone in the United States. Not only will such resale be "illegal", but it will become technically much less feasible than it is now.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
He is going to outsource the GNU Project to India!
aaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
true freedom implies shunning mono-cultures
MS Windows is a mono-culture, it's owned & controlled by one entity. GNU/Linux is national/global culture, anyone can use/modify/distribute
particular model of Linux (say GNU)
Surely you troll? GNU is an OS, Linux is a kernel, GNU+Linux is an OS, many models of GNU/Linux and GNU exist such as those distributed by Debian, RedHat, & Mandrake. (non-Linux GNU OS's exist such as GNU/Hurd and GNU/KFreeBSD)
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
first our jobs, now our free software guru...
Liberty uber alles.
Another good Stallman quote from that conversation:
"The British did visit the imperialist here before colonisation, [MS] are trying for the same"
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
Is this why the HURD is still in development after 20 years?
I thought it was because of the Advertising Clause in BSD Unix, now I find out it's because he's been traveling to India.
Hey, Stallman, don't make any promises while you're over there...
What you seem to want is the collected knowledge of the world, for FREE (as in beer), without giving back in return. That's fairyland. Not going to happen, so get over it.
It seems to me that the original authors were giving it away for free! How can they profit any less than that?
They only gave it away free of financial cost. But they gave it away knowing that anyone who contributed would contribute back.
Again, I have no idea why you're so angry. Plain and simple, if you can't abide by the GPL, don't use GPL'd code. But if you have no money, and lack the talent or time to write your code yourself, don't expect someone to come along, do a lot of the work for you, then get absolutely nothing back.
That's not how the world works.
News to me. Where do I download it?
It is reported that as Stallman passed the Microsoft representatives as he was leaving, he smirked in their direction.
--Rob
Towards the Singularity.
1. Stallman convinces Indian government to use GPL. Specifically, gcc.
2. Stallman smirks as he adds trojan horse to gcc. "Those Indians will never look at the code. Besides, my trojan horse is so obfuscated, they'll never find it!"
3. Indians use gcc to develop code for outsourcing contracts. Software works fine for a while.
4. In six months, software across America goes haywire. "Why oh why did we ever think outsourcing was so great?" sob the executives.
--Rob
Towards the Singularity.
unfortunately, it's the christians who think they are doing his work by such activities that we non-christians dislike.
btw: thanks for including the translation reference in your citation: i wish more people would.
ed
"Kalam, Stallman discuss open source software"....
I'm pretty sure Stallman was talking about Free Software rather than Open Source Software....
I'm not normally an irrational zealous dickhead, but I figure "When in Rome..."
Well this is protectionism.
It seems like a good idea, but when you dig through it, it causes problems.
Artificially raises the cost of living, lowers the global competativeness, and lowers the standard of living for the country. (Longer term effects, short term seems better)
The other thing is such a variable tax rate would turn into a terrible paperwork mess. You would have legal fights from a long time, wouldn't end up working. And you'd still end up with all the downfalls of protectionism.
India to Stallman :- Thank you come again.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
As an American, I find your comment to be generally accurate. (There is something of a safety net, depending on where you live, but these days it's not much.) All I ask is that you remember that not all Americans share the values you describe. I know that our current administration and our corporate-driven culture don't do anything to dispel that view, but remember that many Americans dislike both of those things. Some of us do want to bring developed-world socialism to the US (though we can't call it that here), but it's a hard fight. So yes, many (even most) Americans do have an obsession with money as the ultimate source of value (for a country, or a person), but there are plenty of us who see beyond that.
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
What the fuck is your position? So go take your medication and code your own goddamn programs.
The article refers to "Dr. Stallman" and his leaving a "cushy teaching job". Stallman's own bio at stallman.org points out that he only has a BA in physics, and he was a staff programmer at MIT, not an professor.
So not only do we have to worry about getting our real jobs shipped overseas, but also our open source development as well! Won't there be anything left for an american techie?
-3Suns
~~~~
The Revolution will be Slashdotted
(wont somebody please think of the indians?)
I thought it was Randeep Igoturjob.
Would you like a helping of straw man to go with that ad hominem? You chose the label lazy, not the poster you accuse. He stated that laziness might be one explanation for your complaints... read the post.
But personally I think you are a whining dittohead.
How perfect. Every time a right-winger hurls the "Liberal!" epitaph at someone, they can respond with "Corporatist!"
Nothing wrong with a honorary doctorate. Let's not have our slashdot religous/politcal beliefs cloud our judgement. Fair is fair.
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
The president of India probably gets to meet a lot of nutty religious leaders.
this is not a sig
Stallman believes in control, not freedom. The GPL is specifically designed to allow him to maintain control of any software he's written, while letting others work on it. Also it lets him have control of any software anyone else is written and has decided to place under his license. The fact that the GPL requires copyright in order to be legal says that what you're getting with GPL code has strings attached.
Vote for Pedro
He gave the staff his standard stump speech on how he came to his current views, starting from incident with the printer driver NDA. Even if you've heard it before, and think you've read the GPL, it still helps focus understanding of his position.
Before the speech, a few of us took him out to lunch. Leaving aside the fact that he's not the greatest conversationalist, and doesn't suffer fools lightly, what really struck us was that he was considerably more disheaveled than even our own Ph.Ds, and - I swear to God - he nibbled on loose strands of hair to the point he was nearly flossing.
It's true, the President of India, as with any parlimentary democracy, serves a largely ceremonial position. However, he is very cultured and influential, and I can only hope that Dr. Stallman managed to comport himself appropriately.
Luke, help me take this mask off
The sheer mentioning of India or China seems to make the average american slashdot tech rave like a white trash untermensh, that has resently been analprobed by the UFO.. What is it with you guys? Try to control your paranoia.
Unemployment turned us into white trash.
Table-ized A.I.
In addition, it's not a zero sum game, so if I "steal" some of your GPL'd code, you still have it, so you have no grounds to bitch about me making it proprietary.
,as you say, GPL'd code, the copyright holder of the GPL licensed code can sue them for copyright infringement. As well as conversion. At least in the U.S.
If a developer were to "steal"
Regardless you are correct the price of the GPL license is high, intentionally (Gnu Manifesto)
People are rightfully pissed off. If you're not, fine,
What ever gave you the idea that I'm not pissed off, or that I feel that this is something not worth debating. It's just that I see people ignoring the fact that every one of these problems comes about do to the decisions made by people who will not suffer any negative consequences, while those most affected by these decisions are to a large extent powerless to affect change in the system as long as they are unwilling to criticise the employers, lawmakers, and vendors/manufacturers who are making these decisions. The guy in India is not much different from you in that he desperately needed a job, and one was offered to him. The state of the economy there that makes it possible for him to work for much less than you or I is not his fault, and you can't reasonably expect him to turn down the job.
People who, like you and I, are pissed off need to stop blaming the folks who accept an A1-B, stop blaming the folk who get the job in India, and start blaming the *ssh*les who are making the decision to "increase investor value" by deciding that it's your turn to go hungry.
Look at how the Republicans decide that the economy is "healthy": Stock Matrket, DOW Jones, etc. They don't give a rats ass if you or I are working, eating or have a ropof to call our own as long as thier portfolio is rising in value. They sell us out at every turn and send our kids over to Iraq tgo die so that the vice president's own business can get $375 BILLION in contracts? And still very few are willing to shout "FOUL!" They happily make it easier for our companies to outsource overseas (stock goes up), reduce the companies liability to pay unemployment after a layoff (stock goes up) and make it more difficult for the average Joe to file bankruptcy after he loses his job (stock goes up). Meanwhile everyone is blaming the immigrant and the foreigner. WTF? If pointing fingers is your game, then point them at the jerk who's screwing you over, not the next guy in line to get screwed.
Read, L
That was a long way to go for a 40 min meeting.
Isn't the Indian equivalent of the US president the Prime Minister?
He is a Free Software advocate.
Everyone seems to be inaccurate about what exactly Stallman's visit came to advocate. Human lives are saved and lost on literal accuracy - please attempt to be accurate.
Ok...Hi Andrew :)
me from the other side of the world so i am joining this discussion really late...something to do with the sun not being around earlier...
anyways...
to not be accused of a "straw man defense" let me try and summarise what u r trying to say here:
* GPL is more restrictive than other OPEN SOURCE licenses (u r obviously not comparing it to proprietary licenses and EULAs...err...i hope?)
* The reason for ur thinking this is GPL makes it impossible, or atleast *clunky* to incorporate into a proprietory package. Clunky because a parallel licensing deal may need to be worked out with the author(S) and with the usual number of authors on most serious projects, this process could get complicated.
* You also find the deal the GPL offers "unfair" because it either makes u GPL ur entire code (which may be quite valuable) even if all u want to do is use a small function/lib from a GPL project.
* In the case where u try to work out alternative license arrangements u think/find (u give a specific example of QT somewhere up there) that the price asked for an alternative license is again "unfair" and inconsistent with market prices.
* additionally u think this is bad cause it makes u re-invent the wheel when u could have just used some GPLed code (if it were under a license which worked for you)...thus making the GPL a cause of wasted effort.
If this *isnt* what u have been saying, my apologies, and u can skip to the next comment now.
If this *is* infact what u have been saying, here are my two cents:
* well, yes, from a perspective the GPL *is* more restrictive. Its aim is to create an openly available suite of code and keep it open indefinately. Remember GPL roots are from a project which tried/tries to make a not-UNIX(TM) unix -- a monstrous reinvention of the wheel...the waste was already there because of the proprietory license. GPL/GNU tried to make it so that there wont be more such waste going forward. It also tries to appeal to a lot of peoples sense of "fairness" in which they dont want entities which dont share their views on "free as in speech" to benefit from the code. This also encourages these entities to go for the GPL if they think using GPL code provides them value enough to make it a fair deal to open their own code.
In your case, u dont find it a fair deal to have to openup your whole code just because u used a few hundred lines of GPLed code. fair enough, as u said urself, thats why u dont use it. In my case i think it wont be a fair deal if u were able to use some code that i wrote, incorporate that in some proprietory package of yours, and gave nothing back. My reasons for GPLing my code are for it to aid in the snowballing effect of more GPL code out there. If u do contact me with a special case where u just cant open up your code for whatever reasons, but would still like to use my code in it, its only fair for me to ask any amount for it (my experience though, is that GPLed code is usually available for very reasonable terms under alternative licenses). After i name an amount, u are completely free to choose some other provider, if u think i am overcharging (maybe i am stupid to charge so much, and will thus never make a cent from my code, or maybe i really dont want my code in prop. software, and i did actually pull out a number from thin air).
The only license i can think of which is less restrictive (from your perspective) is the BSD (and its bretheren). No prop. license even comes close, so again, i assume your comparision was only with the BSD licenses. The BSD license is usually applied to code which was developed using public money, and thus is only fair that individuals and corporations, FOSS ppl and prop. folks be able to use it equally freely (actually, using BSD with GPL is kind of "clunky" to use ur word). Most code that GPL is applied to was developed by private individuals in their spare time, or by ppl who were being paid to do so by companies which make mone
Sigura Non Grata
Lots of people on Slashdot who criticize RMS make the mistake of describing their critique such that it's clear they did not read or hear RMS' views. Then people who have read and heard him cite his words to correct the erroneous restatement. I play RMS' talks on the radio on my community radio station (Digital Citizen, alternate Wednesdays 8-10p WEFT 90.1 FM in Champaign, Illinois) and run-of-the-mill radio listeners do respond favorably to what he has to say. They call me on and off-air and tell me so (I just started taking on-air callers and will do more of this in the future). I'm hoping we'll get the equipment and mirroring to do webcasting soon because we have a number of programs of interest to a wide audience, not just my free software/copyright law/patent law public affairs show.
One of the things people most often misstate is the difference between the open source and free software movements. The FSF essay on this issue is excellent and widely underread. I think RMS gets a profoundly unfair shake on this and other websites.
Digital Citizen
You are basing this on what information? The fact that your mother admonished you to finish your plate "for the starving children in China?"
An anthropologist I am familiar with recently returned to Northwest China (in the remote mountains) after 20+ years. He was absolutely shocked; instead of rutted dirt roads, he travelled out on a paved highway. The rural villages now have industry, power, telephones, cars, and the beginnings of a middle class consumer life. Their economic 'freedom' to consume will equal ours very shortly. Political freedom is another story, but you probably don't care about such paltry things as accuracy.
He roughly equated the economy to the late 1940's early 1950's in America, where factory workers could buy a car on one month's salary. Is that true here today? Or does the abstract growth of the Dow Jones average somehow equate to that? I think not.
===================
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
We're all going to have to realize that this is not an all or none situation. There is no "right" license for software. Neither proprietary nor free is always right.
The core points to be taken are:
1) We as software developers need to realize that neither a proprietary model nor a free model has an inherent moral advantage over the other. It is dependent on the requirements of the situation. The same will apply to open vs. closed-source. We must determine what customers want/need in a given situation (by listening to them).
2) Consumers need to realize the advantages and disadvantages of various software licensing models and source availability, when making software decisions.
Both MS and Stallman have a long way to go to admit these realities of the software business today.
MS can be in the proprietary model if it wants, but it needs to make its pricing realistic and not gouge consumers. Flexibility in features, rather than massive bundling needs to happen.
Stallman on the other hand, needs to realize that it's okay for software to be "proprietary" (i.e. licenses for $$) and that it's up to the vendor whether to release source or data formats. These latter are nice, but their necessity is dictated by customer requirements.
I thought that it was "RMS does India" ????
like Debbie does dallas.
just thinking about it.... like eyyywww..
No, it doesn't, but it's obvious that many are uncomfortable with anyone talking about ethics, freedom, and community without needing religious reference to make their point; RMS routinely makes his points without religious reference, he grounds his arguments on how he was able to get along with his community of hackers in the 1970's and what values society ought to teach children (sharing published information is good and a time-honored activity, for example). I'm sure if you ask any free software advocate for something they disagree with RMS on, they'll be happy to share that with you. The free software community is not based on faith that something good will somehow work itself out, there is real political understanding and strategy involved. There is also a conflict between deeply examining critical political issues of the day and an audience that is largely unaware and uninvolved in national and international politics. Lots of computer geeks who show up to RMS' talks and frequent websites like Slashdot are not politically astute enough to differentiate between religious followers and those who agree with RMS on issues of software freedom. This can change, but it takes time to discuss issues and educate people about the value of software freedom. One must be willing to engage with arguments on their merits and an examination of history, not glibly dismiss uncomfortable talk as "religion".
Digital Citizen
RMS has never "advocate[d] giving US IP to everyone who wants it". In fact he consistently explains why the term "intellectual property" (which is what you mean by "IP") hurts us and encourages muddled thinking. He has also said as much in his talks. If you have citations to the contrary, I'd like to read them or hear them.
As for "sinking this country forever", it's ironic that initially this country began its copyright policy by not honoring foreign copyright (much to some British authors' dislike, like Dickens) and with a far shorter term of copyright than we have today (without which, it's reasonable to estimate, some authors, including Mark Twain, wouldn't have written as much as they did). But again, RMS gives us some valuable insight on copyright policy.
It's also ironic that you get so much about RMS' views wrong and that he has already rebutted much of what you have to say.
Digital Citizen
And a wise man once said: "No man is an island."
Humans are social creatures. Believing that the goal of life is to stand proudly alone is psychotic and, quite literally, sociopathic. Humans would not exist if individual cells did not cooperate with each other, you know. Please (re)read Asimov's classic Foundation series again. The logical end result of your ideology is spelled out on the surface of the Moon in a later book. I urge you to check it out.
=============
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
"For the first time, the Mars Rovers vehicle is using OSS and it is reported to be functioning well."
I thought the Mars Rovers were using software from Wind River? Is their code using GPL then?
"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you?" --Yoda {whips out green light saber}
Stallman will be masturbating to this for years!
I know some of the jokes are funny, but did everyone miss this bit:
"Ironically, the people waiting in the Presidential anteroom for the interaction to end were people from Microsoft. "
So, who wins? Is it better to go first or last?
Now, more and more developing countries are adopting Open Source thing. That's one of factors that less foreign people who would buy technological products from us (U.S.A.) because ...
they can create their technological products using Open Source technology.
You gotta know that Open Source is an ideal world, not a realistic world
Mohammed going to the mountain. Or, considering we're talking about RMS travelling to India, perhaps it's the other way round.
--This isn't a man who is leaving with his head between his legs.
APJ Kalam is a well respected figure in Indian polity and is a technocrat who headed the Indian missile program for a long time. Well known for his liberal views on social issues and optimistic plans for educating the future generations.
Though the president is essentially a figure-head, (who does not control the "nucular" button), he can and is known to use the bully pulpit to lobby for important issues. Has written a few best-selling books (including the self-descriptive autobiography "Wings of Fire").
If you look at commercial closed source products for the home then you got the same problem however. Doesn't really matter if it is source or binary if people want to steal it. Look at ACDsee, winrar, winzip, winamp 5 (well serves them right for going commercial) and so on.
Only if for some reason your users are going to be moral people or they have an other reason to actually buy your software then I think making a living out of home users is extremly difficult.
Given that if your binary program is popular people are going to crack any protection in a matter of days you might argue that simply not including the protection is actually saving you money and not pissing off paying customers. Then you have to figure out if you are prepared to put in the work and things like bandwidth for the % of thieves vs paying customers.
I wouldn't at this time. But hey maybe IBM's patent for paying opensource developers is going to help out here. Or maybe you can get money from a distro if your app really fills a gap.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Interesting official website.
..it is "corporate", not "corperate".
This "require everyone to believe" and "must cause everyone to convert" blather about missionaries is nonsense.
Though I'm an atheist, I've met plenty of missionaries, and they were all, without exception, trying to share what they considered extremely helpful knowledge for the benefit of others. I acknowledge that there are inevitably exceptions, but that's all they are these days: exceptions.
Many religious fundamentalist societies in the past have been coercive in the extreme, of course. The Muslims are the worst case of this today, with the Catholics (with their brutal concentration camps for "wayward" girls or orphans) a close second, but both groups tend to limit their coercion to those unfortunate enough to be born within their own group. Neither group is known, in current times, for proseletyzing missionaries actively seeking to convert nonmembers.
If someone is trying to persuade me of something that he thinks will be a real blessing to me, I'm not offended, and that's all I've seen from current missionaries. (The coercive missionaries these days call themselves by a different name: "political activists".)
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Check it out
So, to sum up, the Missionary position is open to all comers?
Hi Mr. Ghoul! I saw your response a long time ago but I'm sorry, I was caught up in other replies. Actually I feel very bad because I should have replied to you first. I hope you are still awake. Anyway, thankyou very much for your thoughtful reply.
I am very grateful that you didn't try the old straw man thing that everyone else tried. Your summary of my position was most accurate. I have only one point to make:-
I don't claim that the GPL is more restrictive than any other Open Source licence. I'm not familiar with all Open Source licences. However, it's my intuition that the GPL probably is more restrictive than most if not all Open Source licences, because of RMS's strong ideology. He believes that restrictions are necessary to enforce freedom, as all ideologues are wont to do.
OK I'll post this and then reply with thye rest.
hi
GPL/GNU tried to make it so that there wont be more such waste going forward.
Well, that's a laudable goal, and I'm sure it has succeeded in certain circles. I personally prefer the Microsoft way of doing things, so the GNU stuff has little to offer me. I know I'm in a minority on this site to say that (although not a minority use Microsoft tools to say it) but I'm not scared of my karma or of a good argument.
It also tries to appeal to a lot of peoples sense of "fairness" in which they dont want entities which dont share their views on "free as in speech" to benefit from the code.
I don't think it's "fair" for entities who don't share my views on "free as in free to code as they like and not have to release it warts and all to the world" to rip off code either. But try telling to the various disassembler jockeys from the anti-MS community. I'm no stranger to disassemblers myself but please don't try to tell me that Wine "clean-roomed" Windows. YEAH, RIGHT.
It's all very well only licensing your code to people who agree with you. Oh no, wait, no it isn't. That's the sort of thing people would denounce as a Microsoft tactic. No. If your software is good, then maybe people will try it. As a programmer, especially as someone who has been told a zillion times that Linux is the shiznitz, let me tell you - a little cynicism goes a long way.
"gave nothing back"
My friend, I can give back just as much as most of the leechers who download your stuff. In fact probably much more. But what is my incentive? To have the leechers laugh at me? "See that idiot? That guy paid for the stuff that I leeched!". Joy!
You want a snowballing effect of more free software. That's fine to say for someone who still lives in his/her parents' basement. Most people need to make a living once they leave that stage. While there is no guarantee that any particular individual will make it that way, there remains a sizable population of people worldwide who command a salary because they help to create wealth. Free software people may help to create wealth, but they rarely collect on it.
Aiight I am pretty tired now. But one more point for you. Most "Open Source" licenses are pretty close to BSD. Most useful Open Source stuff out there is under a pretty reasonable licence. And most people do not make use of the freedom that they have. I'm not altogether upset about the status quo. There's always room for doom and gloom. But at the same time, you should look at the real world around you. Is "the man" standing with his jackboot on your neck? Or is it possible to see a non-GPL-zealot as a reasonable, perhaps sociable person?
I wasn't serious, numbnuts. I was trying for a +5 Funny. But you've got me on that other count: I've been personally killing people for the sake of capitalism since 1904. I mean, really? Why mod that up? That's not insightful. That's the same crap that's posted to virtually every article that involves outsourcing. And by the way, read my previous postings and you'll notice that you've grossly mischaracterized me.
I spent most of my afternoon trying to put across a certain position, not trolling, but almost holding out an olive branch, as it were.
;)
Yeah... I noticed. You were getting dissed for holding the minority opinion (in this case, calling GPL more restrictive). People kept accusing you of things you never even said. Nothing like the masses on Slashdot turning against someone
I think gaming will be one area that will not be impacted as much when open-sourcing the software. Most of the game's value comes from content (graphics, story, innovativeness of the game, etc). I think you can still make money even if you give the source code away. You will NOT give the content away so one will still pay for the game.
Having said that, it is very risky to open-source something right now--even gaming. As I say in another message (something you may not agree with), the ultimate goal of businesses is to monopolize their industry. That is what generates the high profits. If you want to monopolize the market, you want to keep the source code closed. For instance, if your game has really good AI then keeping it closed will ensure that only your (future) games will have that great AI. If you open-sourced it, competitors will incorporate your AI and you will lose your advantage. I just think the business model isn't there. I have my doubts that someone can make money by open-sourcing their software in the NEAR TERM.
In the long term, I still think that open-source is the way to go. Instead of your company spending a lot of time coding basic AI, or implementing some sound system, or whatever, you can use open-sourced existing components. Use open-sourced stuff and tailor it for your needs. But the business isn't there. I haven't seen any company really make much money off open-source. The only ones that have been able to are very small companies (eg. people offering linux solutions and services), or distribution companies (eg. Red Hat, SuSE/Novell).
I am a big supporter of open-source (at least from an ideological point of view). I really think it will help people, especially smaller countries, poorer people, etc. It is more efficient for a lot of small countries to pool together and contribute to one thing than to try doing it on their own. Having said that, I am sympathetic to the views of the software industry and those who say that making money off it is tough. The business model just isn't there yet.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
For a counterpoint, I would start by agreeing that no man is an island - but he should be able to swim if living near the ocean.
You speak in terms of humans being social creatures, and that is quite correct - but part of being in a healthy society is that you must at least give back to the society more than you take from it, or you will eventually bring about the downfall. It's one thing to rely on some help from time to time in downswings, but quite another to live a life of moochery.
That's why people taking unemployment have no stigma, but "harder" forms of support like welfare have quite a bit of stigma attached to them.
In the end rugged individualism is healthier for a society as a whole, while being slightly less positive for the individuals themselves as in addition to working harder, they must also spend more effort at figuring out what a good balance is.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The thing is that almost no-one cares enough to actually try and do what you suggest - though it sounds appealing to many, they are comfortable enough with where they are that they do not wish to push it.
Now I have a friend who absolutely wanted to only ever work half time - and I think has been able to do so for about seven years now. And not just at small companies, the last place she worked at for a number of years was Rational (a pretty big corporation)!!
And all that without even moving. If you really cared about such a situation I am sure you could find it in the US without much problem if you were willing to move.
The fact of the matter is that most people in the US are actually content with the vacation situation as it is, which I know sounds unbelievable but there you go.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
No, I don't mean that as an insult. I mean literally have your mom download and build any given linux distribution. I'll wait...
Didn't go so well did it? I'll bet you've never heard your mom say *those* words before!!
Just because source is available does not mean people will not pay. There are plenty of examples where the act of pre-packaging for consumers can bring tremendous profits.
Just because something is GPL does not mean you can't charge for it!! It just means that you need to consider the strategy of what to do when people copy and distribute it. You just need to be better than anyone else at distributing the code you build in a convenient manner to people who pay you for it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
hi again...
:P)
:P
.doc format. If a small company with no death grip on the market had a proprietory protocol, no one would care two hoots. That small company cant do much harm. (and if we continue this discussion, please keep MS out of it)
ok, firstly, i really really wish you hadnt brought MS into the argument. This is slashdot, and involving MS in a thread not directly about MS i think should be cause enough for invoking godwins law. (ESR, maybe its time to update the entry for godwins law in the hackers dictionary
secondly, its you who now can be accused of a straw man defense by bringing in the issue of reverse engineering and dissassembly, none of which was being argued about. I hope if u do reply further you will refrain from such fascile arguments, cause i am starting to get an uncomfortable feeling that i have been trolled
now to respond:
I have absolutely no issues with you liking the 'MS-way' better. to each his own. It just doesnt square with what you have been saying in this thread. If u are talking about freedom to incorporate someones code into yours, the MS way is certainly NOT less restrictive than the GPL. (and no, COM linking is not the same as incorporating code. Such runtime component invocation is all pervasive in the GPL world as well, in other forms). Hell, the "MS-Way" doesnt even let you LOOK at the code!! So i do have to take issues with you if u are implying that MS EULAs are in *any* way less restrictive than GPL.
About only licensing code to people who agree with you: Well, THAT is TRUE for EVERY LICENSE. A LICENSE is a statement of agreement of views on how to use the code. How can i/why should i license you ANYTHING if u dont agree with me on how its to be distributed? Again, MS even imposes restrictions on not only how u distribute code (compiled code, not even source code, which is unavailable) , but also how you USE it on your own!! No one that i have come across has issues with that. The problem is with keeping secret
core interoperabilty data which strengthens MS (declared illegal) monopoly: File formats, protocols etc. And that problem arises from the fact that many people dont want a death grip on them where their whole business can be held to ransom because MS wants more money, and there are no options. AGAIN, this is an issue BECAUSE MS is a monopoly. There is no choice for most ppl but to use the
Now about dissassmebly/reverse enginnering: Dissassmebly/reverse engineering is perfectly respectable and legal. Even under the infamous DMCA. And Disassembly is always done for interoperatability reasons. Another big thing which u forgot: dissassembly involves a LOT more effort than just developing an equivalent product yourself from scratch. AGAIN, The only reason ppl do it is for interoperatabilty, when there is NO other choice. Dissassemblers are NOT freeloaders. SAMBA/WINE have worked **much harder** than the original windows team to develop products talking the same protocols as MS products. You should know, given u are no stranger to dissassemblers yourself. The great thing with GPLed code is, one doesnt NEED to reverse engineer anything. Even if the GPL doesnt work for u, u can always go through the code, learn the techniques used, details of all protocols and file formats, and proceed to write a compatible piece of code from scratch. as long as u dont incorporate gpled code verbatim, u are all set!
About leechers: I dont care about a person downloading my code and using it for his own purposes. Thats why i released my code under the GPL, not under a EULA. If that person(your leecher) is not a developer, i DONT *WANT* ANYTHING BACK from him anyways!!! But if he IS a developer, my cost to him is that he contributes
back any modifications to my code (failling that, i want a good amount of money from him, maybe a share of the profits he will make from that prop. package of his). And this is true for you too! as a developer of a propreitory product, u benefit more fr
Sigura Non Grata
"Perhaps because we've seen over a million jobs lost just after granting a roughly equal number of H1-B visas in one industry followed by our trade deficit doubling in less than two years. Yeah, that might be it."
That was my statement that has gotten you in all in a tussle. I'm not blaming immigrants in that statement. In case you haven't noticed, the H1-B issue was rushed through congress and DOUBLED for the sake of diluting our IT labor market on the fallacy that we had too many computer programmers. THAT IS A POLITICAL ISSUE. That we have allowed our trade deficit to double IS A POLITICAL ISSUE. That we have six million people unemployed IS A POLITICAL ISSUE. That all of these are in a very tight causal relationship IS A POLITICAL ISSUE. Addressing those political issues does not mean someone hates foreigners.
Look, My family runs primary schools in rural India. I've lived in fscking rural Africa where "public housing" means dropping off a pile of bricks. I've gone on humanitarian missions to the middle of Mexico where people live houses made of dirt and straw. I've clocked more miles of world travel than most presidents. I'm well aware of the plight of people a HELL of a lot worse off than software engineers in Bangalore and frankly it's almost sickening to hear people going on about the plight of the top 0.00001% of Indians who have standards of living higher than most Americans--often greater in certain terms than American software engineers (do you have full-time live-in servants?). This is misplaced pity. It's the other 99.9999% of the population in that country that people should be worried about.
Christ, I GET IT, OKAY? DO YOU? You know the phrase "think globally, act locally?" Well, the people I see locally are one day away from homelessness and have advanced degrees. That I am concerned more about those people at the moment does not mean I don't give a shit, or worse that I hate, Indians or any other nationality of people. It just means that I don't like seeing my own people starve. What the hell is wrong with that?
On the one hand, in a VERY abstract sense it is not the fault of someone in India who is offered a work visa. GREATLY on the other hand is that the government of India has lobbied our government to favor their country in terms of visas and has heavily promoted outsourcing with the express intention of taking existing jobs on a 1:1 ratio--not creating new jobs. They have literally said "we can replace that employee" not "we can produce that product better. They are taking even the most run-of-the-mill office jobs down to clerical work and answering the phone. There IS a human side in the United States that the Indian government is utterly conscious of--THEY JUST DON'T CARE.
How is it that we should hold ourselves to ethical standards, but we must hold India ethically blind? That reduces every argument about India to nothing more than a juvenile tautology. The government of India, the business owners in India and the front companies in the United States that proxy for them are NOT without blame. They know EXACTLY what they are doing every bit as the Wal*Mart that comes to town with the express intention fo driving all of the local business owners into poverty.
OK, sorry about bringing MS into the argument. I had been drinking and I think I was beginning to drift off-topic...
I wasn't talking about MS EULAs. I was talking about the general way in which software is crafted. I prefer the Win32 environment to the Unix one. Then again, I have more experience with Win32. It doesn't matter, though, I'm free to make my choices.
I can't see MS's code, true. I rarely need to, though, and whenever I have a problem, I can find someone to talk to about it.
But if he IS a developer, my cost to him is that he contributes
back any modifications to my code
As I have said all along, I have no problem with this. What I object to is having to give you stuff that isn't a modification to your code, but has become part of this "derivative work".
It wasn't my intention to attack you personally, so I'm sorry if my words had that effect.