Slashdot Mirror
India Blocks Yahoo Groups Over Political Content
Ryan Barrett writes "In an attempt to shut down the Yahoo Group of a separatist political
movement, the Indian government's
CERT organization ended up blocking its country from accessing Yahoo Groups as a
whole. China's censorship of the Internet in the past few years has been
unsettling, but most people have accepted it as a by-product of China's form of
government. Given that India's form of government is clearly different, this is
much more chilling."
Sep 29, 10:47 AM (ET)
By S. SRINIVASAN
BANGALORE, India (AP) - A government ban on an Internet discussion group run by an obscure Indian separatist movement has ended up blocking hundreds of unrelated Yahoo forums, preventing nearly all of India from using the popular online service.
"This is more like a dictatorship and goes against the concept of freedom of speech," said Sushil Devaraj, a businessman who regularly uses Yahoo discussion groups to discuss programming issues for a low-cost computer called the Simputer.
Over the past two weeks, India's dozens of Internet service providers have been notified by the government to block access to a Yahoo discussion group called "Kynhun - Bin U Hynniladenewtrep."
The group, which has about two dozen members, is run by a separatist group called Hynniebinwtrep International Liberation Council. The little-known organization says it represents the ethnic Khasi people and wants their home region, a small slice of the country's northeast, to secede from India.
Efforts to contact the group were unsuccessful.
Web sites like Yahoo, Google, or MSN allow users to create and subscribe to electronic discussion forums, where members can exchange views. The groups are used for everything from keeping in touch with friends to discussing politics and home repair.
India's Computer Emergency Response Team, a section of the Information Ministry that normally deals with hackers and virus attacks, ordered the discussion group blocked in mid-September for "promoting anti-national news and containing material against the government."
But for technical reasons, Indian Internet service providers were unable to block just the Kynhun site - and had to shut down every Yahoo discussion group. Other sections of the Yahoo Web site, such as its Internet explorer and news areas, were unaffected.
"We had to comply immediately," David Appaslinamy, spokesman of Sify, India's largest Internet service provider, said Monday.
Reporters Without Limits, an advocacy group for press freedom, criticized the ban and called for it to be rescinded.
"Blocking a few Web pages can result in the blocking of hundreds of other Web pages that have nothing to do with the banned content," said Robert Menard, the group's secretary general.
While uncommon, the Indian government has occasionally blocked Web sites it finds objectionable, including one for a Pakistani newspaper during India-Pakistan fighting in 1999.
Indian users found their favorite groups suddenly inaccessible in recent days.
"My students have a problem. I discuss their problem with them on the Yahoo groups. We have not been able to do it," said Rajeev Gowda, an economics professor at the Indian Institute of Management in the southern high-tech city of Bangalore.
"This heavy-handed action has affected a variety of users who have nothing to do with that group," Gowda said Monday.
The Internet Service Providers Association of India suggested to U.S.-based Yahoo that it deactivate the Kynhun group.
"But they wrote back saying they may not be able to do it. Indian service providers are obliged to block the group under Indian laws. But U.S. laws are different," said P.V. Ramdas, a member of the association's decision-making executive council.
Internet service providers said they were trying to fine tune their blocking mechanisms to allow access to other Yahoo discussion groups and prevent other sites from disclosing information about the ban, though none appeared to be successful by Monday evening.
When they meant to nuke just one. This is why they shouldn't have the bomb.
~~~
bitch about free speech etc etc now that is real censorship....
things could always be worse of course they must be kept from getting that bad.....
Could the Niles-nator have gotten a first post? COULD HE HAVE OWNED YOU!?!?
Where will disgruntled cab drivers get to gripe now?
This obscure seperatist group is no longer so obscure. I'm interested to see how this pans out in a democracy. Will the people be so mad that they can't use yahoo that they will demand change? Will this actually increase the interest in this seperatist group?
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
India is a democracy !!!
This is definitely a chilly article. It does not bode well for the region at all.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
Damn im first. First posters suck
How is a socialist government different from a communist one except by degree? For that matter, how is the current US government different?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
This government is doing nothing more than trying to please people. Many people will be pleased, and many will be displeased. They have blocked Yahoo Groups, but there are plenty other sources of criticism, probably many much worse, that will remain uncensored until they go to the extreme of blocking everything by default and only allowing the sites of their choice.
This is not only ridiculous, it's not feasible. Good try.
It's too bad that with all that outsourcing companies do to India and Asia they couldn't outsource a little more of a concept I call freedom.
Or maybe it is already happening and we just don't realize it.
I'm sure Ashcroft is behind this.
So supposedly "democratic", "free" India is shutting down methods of discourse to prevent people from engaging in "bad" speech.
So how is "evil", "totaltarian", "theocratic" Pakistan doing on the internet freedom of speech front? Just checking.
~~~
C:\>
We can totally remove india from the internet just mirror the groups everywhere...
Got Code?
Over the past two weeks, India's dozens of Internet service providers have been notified by the government to block access to a Yahoo discussion group called "Kynhun - Bri U Hynniewtrep." The group, which has about two dozen members...
I bet they get more after this amount of news attention.
"Given that India's form of government is clearly different, this is much more chilling."
This is going to happen, sooner of later, in any nation which doesn't have some analogue of the First Amendment. Even in democracies like India, either the government will do it unilaterally or they will scare the people enough to push it through.
A Constitution like ours (US), however flawed, is a wonderful thing.
Un-patriotic, unamerican, terrorist you!
I believe your public state owned librarys also block sites depending on their content right ?
dont think that democracy means free anything, you give up your daily life for your boss no ?
Can't you just use the Java Anonymous Proxy or anonymizer.com and still access it? Or someone can just write a script to copy the particular banned Yahoo group and mirror it somewhere else...
When are countries going to learn that the Internet can't be stopped?
Who gives a F*&#$*&@#%&
But is the lack thereof any less?
Slashdot's getting abit behind the news, read this over 4 days ago!
India Blocks Yahoo Groups: Sikh and Wrong
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
I've been toying around with this idea for a while, basically all I have now is a hacked stupid ass script that decodes yenc encoded binaries from a paticular newsgroup, creates a .torrent hash on the message, then seeds the message with btdownloadheadless. (I did this so some friends on a different ISP that didn't carry the paticular group could reap it's rich rewards)
.torrent hash, seed.
Why can't the same principal with web boards be applied with bittorrent? Simply wget the page you want, create a
(runs off to script)
There's a wonderful quote (I'm not getting it word-for-word):
If we don't believe in free speech for people we despise, we do not believe in it at all.
It's very difficult to draw a line in the sand to divide what is and is not acceptible as free speech. And the most damage doesn't come from misplacing the line a little to the right or the left, but from placing the line to begin with.
India will now be forever locked in a debate over what can and cannot be accessible to the public.
On the upside, the more India is cut off from the internet, the better my job security.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
With all this "anti-terrorists" acting of goverments we might end up where the really free world is the third world... I might have to love the despotic president, but I might have to do that anyway in a few years, or otherwise I'll be flagged terrorist and executed for treason without trial...
But at least in the third world i don't have to be aware of mindprobes and phonetapping...(no phone at all)
Free world... yeah right....
The Honchos sitting up there have no idea of the power of the Internet and the repercursions of blocking such a widely used site like yahoo groups. I did contact my friends in India. They said it was back online after a day or so.
Of course for a democratic nation like India free speech was taken for granted until today. The infamous declaration of Emergency by Indira Gandhi in 1975 plagues the Congress party even today. Funny, a lot of the leaders in the ruling party found themselves at the receiving end of the stick back then. Time really does make one forget I guess.
Anyway let us see how the "democratic process" pans itself out on this issue. The US found its own achilles heel in the Patriot Act. So moralizers beware.
--> Your Wisecrack Here
The region is filled with call centres and outsourcing companies. They want to secede and create IT Land, a place where tech reigns, geeks are free and gurus are a dime a dozen.
take all the jobs, block all the content. that country is turning into a black hole!
The U.S. has already shown how a "democracy" deals with seperatist groups.
Bin laden, huh? That's not his him.
, Google, or MSN
MSN isn't mentioned in article. Hynniebinwtrep
More modification.
and prevent other sites from disclosing information about the ban,
Not present in original article.
Reporters Without Limits
Should be Borders
C:\>
Well, now it's official:
We are in the middle of a paradigm shift equal to the Industrial or Agricultural revolutions. Not just a shift in the economic paradigm, but a social paradigm shift with the same kind of inevitable need for integrated vertical change in the entire structure of human interaction.
This ain't just about mp3s or cell phones or terrorist cells or dot-com stocks or Google being the new encyclopedia or anything else you want to point to. This is yet another clear example of the fact that no centralized control system, including democratic governments, is very comfortable with the possibility of people organizing themselves to achieve their own ends in an unmediated fashion, because the broad distribution of peer-to-peer communications means the breakdown of centralized authority in favor of collective agreement. This is not the Information Age, it is the Age of Consensus.
To the extent that all people everywhere are willing to accept the responsibility that comes with total democracy and unprecedented freedoms, no government nor authority body -- not CERT India, not the RIAA, not TIA or Carnivore -- can stop it.
What is left as the barrier to this new social paradigm is authority's most real and most potent weapon -- manipulation of information in order to manufacture consent. More than ever it is important that all information remain free or become free, and that every day we ask ourselves,
where did your thoughts come from today...
Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
There was a time when hotmail was blocked just so that VSNL(then a govt sponsored ISP with monopoly) could get more people as customers of their email address.
judging from India's CERT(shouldn't the real CERT sue over the name issue?) ban we can see what kind of people run the IT sector(atleast on the govt side). Bad day for democracy.
Well, with the number of slashdotters that like to mirror sites in the discussion, we can easily mirror this yahoogroup.
/. too. I wonder how that would bode for India's geeks?
Hmm, Then India would have to block
Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
...blocking India from the US job market?
I see the point about the freedom of speech and yadda-yadda. However, Yahoo groups (and - even worse - MSN groups) have never really been a healthy addition to the internet.
I only wish the British government would do the same - perhaps people will make *real* groups and/or websites.
h
The Mini Repository - more links
Good grief,the country has over 840 million people and it is worried about a Yahoo group that has 12 members (now 188 thanks to this news story). While it is easy to say "remember 9/11", remember reality too.
It is unlikely they need Yahoo in order to successful anti-government activists. If they do, then they are not much of a threat. It would seem this is like killing flies with nuclear weapons.
Perhaps this should be a word to the wise, as American companies continue off-shoring development. What happens when the shut down incoming email? Your corporate site? Or your ISP? It appears they have no concern for the outcome of their action, merely that they follow it, as their duty demands. However, it is _their_ country and as it said, it is outside the control of US laws, and by direct connection US protections.
for the biggest "democracy" in the world...
democracy is nice
but so is strong government
a lot of people here come from cultural monocultures of western democracies with strong central governments
we're talking about an organization with at most a few dozen members that want a sliver of land in the northeast of india to be independent, in a country that is as about as culturally varied as the entire african subcontinent
this is serious stuff in a place where india and china still have serious border issues about sikkhim, kashmir, etc., not to mention active separatist groups like in assam
this is not the border of canada and the us, across which most people here on slashdot are posting, perhaps the most historically peaceful border in the world
this is serious stuff, this is not funny, this is not a simplistic civics lesson in sixth grade that is understandable in simplistic terms only
india has to take serious steps to protect the integrity of its borders and internal cohesion
blocking all of yahoo groups was a MISTAKE in trying to block this one small group
everyone involved admits that
germany/ france actively censors nazi interests, and we think of them as open democracies
that's a group a lot larger than this tiny unknown group
nobody's screaming bloody murder over that here
so please, ket's have not have all the knee-jerk over-simplifying chicken littles cry the sky is falling in india
let's have some perspective
this really is no big deal, except for this minor practically unknown separatist group, which now has won more pr than they could have possibly dreamed of
which is perhaps the real lesson here about censorship, after all is said and done: you often just wind up buying pr for the group/ work you are trying to censor
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Where was the so called first amendment when the website of Al Jazeera was taken down after the Department of Defense called it unpatriotic.
Just one more reason why maintaining freedom of speech in the U.S. requires constant vigilance.
After reading the article 20 members of fringe group equal a threat to the powers that be. Solution take out a whole service. It shows how weak a grip that most world governments have on reality. Free though equals terrorism to all governments in the 21st century.
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
How this affects anyone outside of India? If Indians want the Yahoo groups back, then they need to takes steps, elect new leaders, etc...
Otherwise, this has little to do with anyone outside of India.
how to take more american jobs.
Anonymous Proxy
"Science is like sex: sometimes something useful comes out, but that is not the reason we are doing it" Richard Feynman
Like this is any worse than the story about the US government using the Patriot Act to invade reporters' notes looking for dirt on the homeless hacker?
If that forum dared say anything about israel, half you guys here along with Mccarthy would have wet yourselves demanding for their heads and would have supported the move.
So ya,...youre right 'nothing more than trying to please people', its just depends what people.
I believe that this whole incident falls under collateral damage without the cynicism of the poular meaning.
zak
Our leader is elected my a majority of the people.
The Times of India has an article, "Big Brother turns gaze on debates," about this (dated Saturday). From the article:
I wonder how long the block will last?
Let's put this in context. Millions of Indians-- more than the entire population of the United States-- live in poverty. (Just because Fortune 500 corporations are outsourcing stuff there doesn't mean India is some sort of wonderful, prosperous Democratic playground. Jobs are outsourced to India because it's cheap.) And we're worried about which Yahoo! Groups they can read there? Many Indians are worried about how they'll feed their children next month.
So instead of ranting and raving on SlashDot about freedom of speech, write a letter to the appropriate ambassadors-- and then go and donate to a charity that helps poor Indians. It'll be more productive, and you'll help solve two problems, not just one.
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
creating the torrent won't generate bandwidth, you need a substatial population that actually receives it and is able to send it out. in these cases, where is your original source and population?
So many people who scream first amendment forgot this crucial point -- the first amendment limits what the government can do. A DDoS attack against Al Jazeera by the GOVERNMENT is a first amendment violation. A DDoS attack by INDIVIDUALS is not - although it is illegal.
Absolutely!
Just look at what rock 'n roll music was in the USSR back in the 60s and 70s. It was a "politically subversive cultural influence" and therefore banned at the government level. But that only served to make groups like the Beatles ever more popular and mysterious.
The Indian government asked ISPs to block ONE specific yahoo group. Many ISPs had no idea how to block just one group and blocked everything. Bullshit headlines like "India blocks yahoo groups" are misleading. I know many people in India using various ISPs who are still able to access Yahoo groups.
it was over there, minding its own business, and not giving two shits about some foreign website. now if only the us government could take a hint and go back to being isolationist.
A little bird tells me that there are more than 3 million yahoo groups mailinglists/web archives.
It's suprising (maybe) that they would block millions of other groups just to stop 12 people from talking amongst themselves.
I should have phrased my question differently. Will it lead to more people joining seperatist groups?
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
But,... who owns intellectual property discussed on yahoo groups? is it public domain?
What if it's a closed members only who join & are invited discussion group held on the yahoo servers ?
Can an american company claim legal ownership of IP discussed on such kinds of yahoo groups?
I once tried to get to the bottom of it and ended up being politely told by some yahoo admins & their IP dept. to go find a lawyer and figure it out for myself.
"There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness."- Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't mean to troll or anything, but how does a country like India make this mistake (I assume they didn't do it on purpose)? Isn't this the same country that US companies are outsourcing their software development to?
If you really want to bring back American jobs long-term than we should try to increase trade in high-tech. Most of the programming jobs being taken by Indian programmers are the maintenance jobs on those old COBOL systems that no slashdotter wants to work on anyway. This is terrible news because of the chill to free speech, but it's bad news for jobs too: If India falls behind in technology that's a 1 billion person market our emerging tech sector can't tap. The old-tech sector backed by COBOL programmers from India and Mexico will keep 'em running but overall the whole world economy loses.
1. There are ways around this. Like http://anon.free.anonymizer.com/http://groups.yaho o.com (you need to use the paid service in order to log in through yahoo's secure connection)
or, maybe, participating in the group via email only.
2. Governments are about control and lack trust in individuals. (And rightly so, too many conflicting interests!) The Internet is based on trust and freedom of speech/expression. It is the conschiousness of mankind starting to manifest itself in material (well, electronic) form. Which is an evolutionary step towards a revolution in human relationships.
This is a classic case of "colleral damage" theory gone wrong. I'm willing to offer them some web space, and if a lot others would, then lets see India block the world.
From the Yahoo group, it looks like kyrmenlang may be the owner, at least thats the nickname that posted the first message on their board. I'll see if an email to that nick will get through.
Pete Carr Owner Chatmag.com
Gee, border integrity, cultural cohesion, other nations wrong-minded censorship, what's next, torture is OK, too, as long as someone else is doing it to?
The Indian political machine. they want one group blocked immediatly. so, to fullfill the demand, they block the whole thing.
oh, and India isnt as democratic as it seems. its really just a corrupt govt that says it was voted in.
remember, this is the country where ghandi's village has no running water but cola is widely available.
"Humanize war? You might as talk about humanizing hell!" -- British Admiral Jacky Fisher
So let me get this straight. It's OK in India to surf the web and download as much porn as your hard drive can handle. But Yahoo groups is off limits.
I'm starting a Free Lamo group right now on MSN to see if the US blocks access to Microsoft
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Given that India's form of government is clearly different, this is much more chilling.
Don't confuse individual rights with democracy. They are not the same thing.
In fact, the ideas oppose each other. Democracy is about giving the majority control. Individual rights are there to protect us from the excesses of democracy.
With all of the work the Indian ISPs will be doing over the next few years censoring Yahoo groups and whatnot, perhaps they will need to outsource their IT jobs to other countries like the United States?
But at heart how different are states? They want control and to stay in power.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
As dangerous as blind, broad, sweeping censorship is, I think that people may err when they immediately assume all censorship in all forms is bad.
Surely there may be situations where some censorship may be considered appropriate by the majority.
India has border disputes with just about every
neighbor. Indian political leaders are under a lot
of pressure to not settle any of these disputes.
Instead they have to fan these flames to win votes.
Maybe one day Indians will wake up and elect leaders
that will do something about feeding and educating
their masses rather than bickering with neighbouring
countries over land.
... specifically the BJP, the political arm of the Hindu supremecist Hindutva movement. These ARE the same folks that shot Gandhi for advocating peace between Indian muslims and hindus you know.
In perhaps a more direct parallel, economic development in India was stifled by grossly excessive bureaucratic controls on private business, which despite some reform is still true today. Government approval was required to do practically anything.
You, sir, deserve a standing ovation.
Just because, India is attempting to close down one group , and, the inability of ISPs to actually managing to close down just that one caused the shutdown. Indian govt. did not ask for shutting down the whole Yahoo groups. While, we can debate whether or not a govt. has rights to shut down a group (which it definitely does in its territory) or close down the complete communication channel itself.. It just comes down to the fact that ISPs were unable to close down that one group.
..
It is not is a statement about india being less democratic because of this. The fact that that many newspapers and journalists are up in arms about this is statement about its fundamental philosophy being sound.
Once in a while, every country slips up.
Patriot act,DMA
how come we didn't see so much outrage when US banned al jazeera in Iraq?
Web sites like Yahoo or Google allow users to create and subscribe to electronic discussion forums.
But it does raise an interesting point - are they going to block, say, NNTP traffic? What about other encrypted, non HTTP-based alternatives?
I can't believe these idiots. There they have a group of dissidents communicating out there in the open where they can be freely and easily monitored - and they're forcing them to use another (probably secure) alternative.
"The group, which has about two dozen members...
I bet they get more after this amount of news attention."
I just checked the group (as I have that ability) and it says that there _were_ 30 members, but now there are 180 most of which signed up in the last seven days.
Good job supressing that info, India!
Documents don't hold much weight unless you have honest people running the place. Unfortunalty, it seems that the only thing your constitution can do is give people a clear goal to fight for.
I find it odd that so many replies here (I'm guessing from the US) are so shocked and find this so scary and such an affront to "freedom."
s /a ntiterrorism_chill.html
Consider if some group in the US started a movement to overthrow the US government. If they started to gain any influence you can bet your ass that the FBI or CIA would investigate and find a way to shut it down. They would just invoke the Patriot act, label them as terrorists, and get yahoo to shut down the group.
India is doing nothing new here.
Websites organizing protests of the WTO have been shutdown. Anti war websites have been shutdown during the Iraq invasion. All by the country that is the so-called "home of freedom."
See here for more..
http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militia
nazi payper liesense ?pr? ?firm? obligations?
that's right. abusing the whoreabully infactdead, pateNTdead PostBlock(tm) devise, lairIE/robbIE et AL, show the wwworld where their heads/hearts are at.
following the georgewellian fuddite 'patriot' mandate, soon, no one anywhere will be allowed to communicate with another won, without some life0cidull 'law' kicking in.
that's Godless greed/fear/ego based megalomania in it's leased refined form. the lights are coming up now.
for each of the creator's innocents harmed, there is a badtoll that must/will be repaid by you/US. the felonious execrable perpetrators will not be available to make reparations.
I just dropped a Mocachino in my lap.
.... nah.
In Soviet Russia
Vote for a general for President! Encourage more war!
Let me not discuss democracy or free speech, but what the ISPs might have done. Last time I visited Yahoo groups, which is about an year ago, the URLs were of this format. Example: 'Linux' group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux So, the stupid idiots blocked the whole domain instead of a certain path. To block kynhun, block http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kynhun/ and not the whole domain. Idiots.
Move to Cuba and see how you like it. Just because you are not directly affected does not mean that you are not affected.
Is CERT in the US blocking any sites? How can I tell what sites they are blocking?
I am dumb, but I'd think this is a relatively easy system to get around using anonymizers and proxies.
I would think that the even the Governments of India and China couldn't even begin to block out new sites showing up on the internet.
So if the site is blocked, what about emails from them, or what about if they have it sent to their Hotmail for example, cant they just check their hotmail
i barely actualy use the actual website for yahoo groups.
so all they have really done is made it a bit more difficult, but i dont see how they are going to stop people from checking webmail email accounts
and technicaly you dont really need to access the webpage to accept an invitation to the group
This type of behavior would appear to be blocked by the lines: "LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship," "Right to Freedom," and " Cultural and Educational Right."
Although, the line: "To uphold and protect the sovereignty, unity and integrity of India," would appear to allow them to silence any opposition to their government.
Just some food for thought from a first time poster.
India is not as impoverished as most people believe. India is upwardly mobile. The term poverty has a western slant to it. Generally people are not starving in India anymore. Conditions aren't great but they just aren't as dire as most folks assume. (As it may have been decades ago.)
You may have free speech, but you don't own the network...someone else does. All Washington will have to do is pass an FCC ruling, or just make a few phone calls in the name of 'Homeland Security' to CEO's at the major ISPs and boom, instant censorship. Oh, Verisign is APPOINTED to be the domain registar by the US GOVT too. Again, just a phone call to drop you from DNS. ICANN is also a shell company..again at the USGvts will. Once we have working blocking software good enough, then they can use DMCA and TOS to prosecute you for trying to get around the "voluntary" ISP blocks.
If your going to be mad, be mad at the US companies and goverment that allow this to happen....Some symbol for world freedom hun?
I mean we censor kiddie porn here in the USA, we censor filesharing speech, we censor to protect big businesses, why the hell is it ok to censor in some situations, say if its a muslim Al Qaeda website suddenly its ok to censor their site, but if its Neo Nazis or the KKK suddenly its a freedom of speech issue? WTF?!
Check this website for some seriously documented work on disappearances that make Pinochet look like an amateur: Report of the Committee for Coordination on Disappearances in Punjab. Happened in Punjab in the 80s and early 90s, and is happening in Kashmir every day now.
Sure it does....the best blocking companies are US based! Yep, US citizens making a buck blocking other countries free speech. Sooner or later, that software will [already is to companies] be sold and enforced here.
Plenty countries have freedom of speech in their constitution, Sweden where I live for one. And were quite proud of it too, just as much as you are with yours. Not that any americans would ever know. :)
Germany and their nazi problem seem to be an area in Europe where freedom of speech is not guaranteed though.
It's somewhat sickening constantly hearing americans patting themselves on the back and claiming their best, "the best hope for humanity" and so on when they know so little of other countries and their systems.
A country with a flaw != America is the best system.
Try to remember that.
Have fun modding this.
Will code a sig generator for food
A decade or so ago, many believed that the Internet would be the harbinger of personal liberty, free expression and democracy throughout the world--take any authoritarian regime, add the Internet, shake, and you'll come back to a thriving pluralistic democracy.
Since then, countries like China, Cuba and others have taught us that it isn't that easy (surprise of all surprises!) The Internet is a tool like any other that determined governments can circumvent and use to support their goals. As previous posters have mentioned this is not only true in authoritarian regimes but also in countries that are ostensibly democratic such as India and the U.S.
Your ad here
Duh. Because those are white people.
What is the correct, free response to such a scenario?
All your favorite sites in one place!
As for calling Microsoft products crap - I don't know the page view statistics for Slashdot, but I bet it rivals the readership of major American newspapers. And Microsoft products are routinely called crap here.
You're suggesting net news instead? NNTP is a flawed technology that has rightly gone the way of the dinosaur.
That leaves perl or php forums, and mailing lists. Not everybody can run sympa or majordomo from their ISP mail account (or knows how), so that leaves, what, Topica (which sucks) and . . . oh yeah, Yahoo Groups.
And then there are web bulletin boards. Quite popular, but take some expertise, not to mention money out of pocket, to run. (I have to say, I also prefer mailing lists because they're plain text, not full of hideous smileys and all the other crap on php forums. And they're more convenient. But suit yourself.) (okay, so there are some places you can get a web bbs for free...approaching yahoo groups functionality, except that it's NOT email, which of course begs the question, what exactly did you have against Y!G in the first place--the ads?)
Yahoo Groups isn't the greatest thing in the world, but for many people, it's the best option out there. Show me something better. Really.
the choice seems obvious. or india could just dole itself out to its neighbours, province by province.
Its not about 18 people group. Its about making a multi-natinol follow the law of the land. W
hen home mistery gave the direction to yahoo, they choose to ignore.
So now the question comes, how to enforce that.
No company try to do it in western countries.
Remember just b,cause CA has state sales tax many website collate and pay to govt if the buyer is from CA. If they don't its hard to enforce but any company worth its name will try best not to break rules federal or state.
So its more a prestige issue rather than political issue now..for indian govt.
multi-nationals alway choose to look other way, the third world laws or govt orders unless they loose out on money.
In this day and age of free speech, The Indian leaders obviously have no idea of how a mature democracy should deal with these issues. By trying to shut people down you only add more fuel to the fire. Why not have an honest debate with the khasis about what their gripe is?
To block kynhun, block http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kynhun/ and not the whole domain.
So you think it's simple to block "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kynhun/", eh? What about the ones that aren't running transparent web proxies? Gee, they'd have a fun time. Did you happen to think of "http://groups.yahoo.com/group//kynhun/", or "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/%6Bynhun/"?
That being said, trying to quash a group by requiring ISPs to block it is about as ridiculous as it gets. Some non-tech-savvy Indian politician got upset when he saw something online and decided to do something.
The correct spelling is "separatist", as it is spelled in the article.
An easy way to remember the spelling of "separate" is to take note of the symmetry of its vowels.
Also, it comes from the same root that gives us the words "part", "partition", "apart", and so on, so you can use that to remember that it has a "par", not a "per."
but in the article, it says the indian govt asked it(the site) be blocked and the isp's just blocked all of it. someone tell me if ive read it wrong.
"Humanize war? You might as talk about humanizing hell!" -- British Admiral Jacky Fisher
I live in India. I am aware of the day-to-day problems we and our government faces due to the insurgent groups which are often backed up - not by the people living at that place but by the neighbouring countries. The group in question has support from the Chinese government... [China has been supporting insurgent groups in Eastern India since Indo-China war in 1962]
While I am all in support for freedom of speech etc etc... Just one question might make the facts quite clear to you.... "Would your reaction been the same if the US government asked Yahoo to block an Al-Qaeda yahoo group...and if Yahoo refused, blocked groups.yahoo.com altogether??"
That's exactly the situation in India. Now, don't teach freedom of xyz unless you have suffered from terrorist acts.... We do!! and we suffer from terrorist acts all through Kashmir, Eastern states in India... and US [government] often believes that it is the sole sufferer in the whole world!!!
block indians from coming to america or taking our jobs?
Cyberbite Networks - Web Hosting, Dedicated Servers & Colocati
I would say the current US government is borderline fascist.
Logic such as this could have resolved the conundrum of the Confederacy by stating simply that the north had a right to invade the south for the sole purpose of giving slaves the right of self-determination -- and that the right of the Confederacy to secede was not the issue.
Of course, as the globe shrinks there are opportunities to violate the self-determination of a lot more of the people than ever before. Hence the real test of a sovereign's committment to human rights is its committment to expanding the ecological range of Earth.
Seastead this.
Actually racist web sites are shut down every day in America. The most recent one was the "Church of the Creator" which was shutdown for a "trademark violation."
I believe in complete free expression. If you don't like it, don't look at it.
Bittorrent is not anonymous or encrypted, so the Indian government could easily track it down and block it. It would be better for you to use something like Entropy to mirror the web boards' content.
On the upside, the more India is cut off from the internet, the better my job security.
I disagree. The more India is cut off from the internet, the more productive your competitors in the codefarms (no slacking!)
Given that India's form of government is clearly different, this is much more chilling.
Actually, this feels a lot better than forcing Yahoo to take it down. At least Yahoo is still free to host (almost) whatever they want.
Now if I was a citizen of India, I'd be pissed.
Oh, the border's quiet now (much like all of Europe these days) but America certainly tried (and failed) to invade on a few occasions. Most noteably the war of 1812 where Canadians stood strong against the entire American army (or most of it anyway). There was also the slogan "54 40' or Fight" which was used by an American president trying to get land straight through to Alaska, whereas Canadians wanted land right down through Oregon. Though, granted that dispute was settled peacefully in the end.
Realistically, the most quiet border is probably in South America somewhere. Then again I don't know any South America history further south than the Carribean so I'm probably way off. And yeah, Canada/US has certainly been quiet for a while now.
I do believe that India and China are the only two countries over 1 billion people at the moment. These incidentally happen to be the two countries who have banned IPs en mass (DISCLAIMER: this is based the other comments in this topic; I'm no expert on the subject, and there's probably some small governments somewhere which also bans stuff). So perhaps large countries are hard to manage, or at least their leaders are paranoid about managing them. Just a hypothesis.
Check this website for some seriously documented work on disappearances that make Pinochet look like an amateur: Report of the Committee for Coordination on Disappearances in Punjab. Happened in Punjab in the 80s and early 90s, and is happening in Kashmir every day now.
There are many posts here about suppressing freedom of speech and offers for mirroring.
Are these offers really based on belief in freedom of speech?
Are those that made these offers equally willing to offer webspace for pro-Nazi groups banned in Germany over the same principle of freedom of speech?
Are you just as willing to support and encourage all acts of civil disobedience on behalf of free speech?
I am equally willing to offer the same amount of webspace for them, which is to say, none.
/.? I said 'media', not half-assed unedited blogging. Nobody cares about the opinions of /.ers
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
I might add....
HYNNIEWTREP NATIONAL LIBERATION COUNCIL
The HNLC is closely linked with the National Socialist Council of Nagaland - Issak Muivah (NSCN-IM). It also has a front organisation called the HSDF (Hynniewtrep State Democratic Front), whose 'Commander-in-Chief' Dominic Kharpuli and three other cadres were arrested on October 20, 2001. The outfit is also reportedly maintaining some of its camps in Bangladesh. It also promotes the circulation of fake currency in the State, which was started at the behest of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's external intelligence agency, reports hold.
Hmm...okay well you gotta get your money somewhere.
Objectives
An important objective of the HNLC is to transform Meghalaya as a province exclusively for the Khasi tribe and free it from 'domination' by the Garo tribe. Another objective is to fight against the presence of 'outsiders', as the HNLC feels that Khasi youth are deprived of the fruits of development in the state.
Oh good, so it's "for the kids" apparently. Sounds great huh?
"April 2: Meghalaya Deputy Chief Minister D D Lapang says the government is unable to spell the terms and conditions for talks with the Hynniewtrep National Liberation Council (HNLC) terrorist outfit as the latter failed to give any positive indication to the government's proposal
August 15: Security arrangements throughout Meghalaya are tightened to ensure the smooth celebration of Independence Day, following a 24-hour bandh (general strike) call given by the HNLC and the People's Liberation Front. Chief Minister F A Khonglam renews his invitation, on the occasion of Independence day, to terrorists groups in the State "to come to the negotiation table and sort out differences in a peaceful manner."
Sounds like they're not interested in negotiating...the following is an exerpt from one of their newsletters on yahoo.
"The HNLC sends its best wishes to all its members who are near and far away on their journey to complete their tasks as the Hynniewtrep Nation has bestowed on them, without them it would be meaningless to celebrate this anniversary."
Complete their tasks...since they're not negotiating with the government it seems safe to assume that these tasks are militarily oriented. The following facts seem to bear this out.
These items occured between 2001 and 2003. Mind you I'm only printing out the HNLC anti government activity, there listing of the government activity as well, but I'm not doing a post on the Indian government.
"August 6: Security forces in Meghalaya arrest eight HNLC terrorists from Mawlai, Shillong. The East Khasi Hills district police chief says those arrested are mostly teenagers and add that it confirms that the HNLC is recruiting teenagers into its fold."
For the kids, of the kids, by the kids....
"August 15: Police personnel killed and another injured when fleeing HNLC terrorists fire at security forces.
January 5: Five civilians killed and four others injured in an attack by HNLC terrorists on a business establishment in Shillong.
March 4: Seng Khasi leader Rijoy Khongshah, was abducted earlier on March 1, 2001, killed by HNLC terrorists.
January 9: Two security guards of a nationalised bank killed in an attack by HNLC terrorists at Mawsynram village.
January 19: HNLC terrorists attack a police outpost in Shillong and kill two police personnel
February 19: The outfit, in a statement, opposes Census operations in the State and threatens to eliminate enumerators participating in the process. "
me: uhhhh....cuckoo!! I guess they're afraid that the other 99.9 percent of the indian population might figure out they have them outnumbered. And they're willing to murder people to prevent that. Damn them revenooers!
October 23: HNLC Chairman Julius K. Dorphang discloses that Ching Thangkhiew, the 'Commander-in-Chief' o
This is similar to US Govt. profiling all muslims as terrorists.
How's that for chilling?
Instead they have to fan these flames to win votes.....Maybe one day Indians will wake up and elect leaders that will do something about feeding and educating their masses rather than bickering with...
Sounds familiar. Although in W's case, it aint winning votes.
Table-ized A.I.
...given India's history of crushing separatist movements. In the very short period of time since India actually became a nation (half a century ago), the Central government has been not been truly united on any single policy except to maintaining the continuity of their nation. This is due mostly in reaction to the secession of the Pakistani states-- India's national government (the "Center") is determined to never let such a thing happen again. In a country where almost ever local state has a strong secessionary movement, this kind of heavy-handed action against any and all forms of rebellious deliquency is to be expected.
Personally, I'd look on the bright side, and be happy that India merely decided to censor the group from a public forum, as opposed to sending a military police force to hunt down the members and arrest them. Few people raised in western society realize both the frequency and immediate danger that these often violent and desperate groups pose to the well being of a state.
I agree. Free speech is certainly only free if you can freely express extremely unpopular views.
However, the reason many european countries ban certain types of "hate speech" is because there really is a fuzzy grey line of what we can tolerate. In USA you certainly don't allow me to make death threats to a single person, right? What if my deeply felt political view is that you and your family should be tortured to death by me and my buddies. Am I allowed to make these threats to you? How large does the group has to be, before it is OK for me to tell them that I plan to make soap of them?
Opinions stated are mine and do not reflect those of the Illuminati
Do you mean the same First Amendment that has been whittled away by the COPA, the PATRIOT act, the CTEA (and all other copyright law introduced since 1980), and the RIAA's litigation? When we censor ourselves, is that not more like living in fear of the dreaded thought police?
In addition to this, if US citizens do not watch what they say, they risk being branded terrorists by the US government's new Department of Household Surveillance. How has the First Amendment (or the Fourth, for that matter) protected us from that?
Every government is afraid of criticism, and we are all (everybody on Earth) rapidly losing our ability to criticise.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
Even though the Yahoo groups page is blocked, all mails and group lists are being recieved freely. An you can still subscribe to any list you like by mailing the list name....just shows that the Indian Govt is still in its infancy at using technology, and especially inept at mapping it to the real world..... There are already LUGs that are issuing cals for lawyers to take the issue to the courts.
I'm interested to see how this pans out in a democracy.
Well, the French don't allow anything "Nazi" to enter France. Both Yahoo and eBay have had to change the way they operate in France as a result..
You can't even operate a website discussing the things the Nazis belived at the time ..
Welcome to France ...
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
Apples and oranges. The difference between suppressing child pr0n and suppressing political speech is that pr0n is not competition/a threat for the government. (Presumably, unless the government is some kind of pornotopia... mmm... pornotopia)
Apparently you do, otherwise why bother responding?
Sometimes I really get tired when people that were schooled in substandard educational systems repeat the word 'democracy' like some mantra that is supposed to protect human freedom.
These days when people say "democracy" they are really using it as a fuzzy crypto noise word that really translates to "socialist". Most socialist governments have had a poor record of respecting individual rights in the interests of the needs of the many. Usually that ends up being the needs of those in power.
All democracies, as De Toqueville once said, eventually fail when the people find that they can vote themselves the contents of the public coffers. When this happens, politicians compete to see who promises to give away the most benefits. This eventually leads to loose fiscal policy, profligate spending and almost certain economic collapse, soon followed by the dictator who will 'make everything right again'.
Screw democracy. How about a limited constitutional republic?
Where is India's constitution and bill of rights? Hell, the US made one when they kicked the Brits out of the colonies. Why didn't India?
I have an idea. Lets send India the US Declaration of Independence and Constitution including the famous Bill of Rights.
Why not?
Were not using them.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "
There. Try that for starters.
Of course, I currently drop everything from Yahoo except for the one person.
It would be so nice to be rich, so I could track and sue every SPAM sender, facilitator and SPAM relay to bits.
mazur.
The truth shall make you fret. (Ankh-Morpork tImes motto)
1) http://www.hotmail.com
2) sign up!
3) sign up yahoogroups mailing list!
4) ???
5) profit!
To access the groups one has to simple use one of the free proxies, that it. Now did the government really achieve what it wanted to. A better solution was to simply ask Yahoo! to remove the group in question.
If they can nip a civil war in the bud; what's that worth? If the US had used unconstitutional means to prevent the south from seceeding and prevented civil war; would it have been worth it?
Freedoms are a means to an end - a better happier life for all. A civil war, maybe a nuclear civil war, is so much worse than restricting freedom of speech that it isn't even a close call.
Germany restricts freedom to speak when it comes to Hitler and Nazi issues.
Perhaps its all for the best.
Just don't restict my right of access to plutonium or really powerful poisons (joking!).
India does have a constitution, troll.
Here is its preamble:
THE CONSTITUTION OF INDIA
Preamble
WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a _1[SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC] and to secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;
LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;
EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
and to promote among them all
FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the _2[unity and integrity of the Nation];
IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION.
A common first right to go is the ability of private citizens to be armed... Since a revolt by unarmed people against a well armed army is unlikely to be sucessful.
I guess you are a gun-rights supporter. I personally don't think it helps. At one time, it may have helped (say 200 years ago). But nowadays, it is not very helpful. The reason is due to the massive difference in strength between the military and the people. Even the best armed militia in USA is no match for the US military, for example. How much would guns really help?
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Marry me?
You know where to call...
The only Russian music group I can think of is "TaTu", so I'd guess the answer is no... ;)
In fact, as far as I remember the way children (including me) were taught in the USSR, was essentialy that "communism" was "from everybody according to his abilities, and to everyone according to his needs", and "socialism" - "from everybody according to his abilities, and to everyone according to his work".
:)
In all other respects, we were taught that socialism and communism were mostly similar.
If it comes to the point where you have to take arms against an oppressive government it's too late. You were asleep at the wheel while the totalitarians were raping the country. Ballots, not bullets!
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
"Tony Blair's socialist government in the UK"
The Blair government is not actually socialist. In the United Kingdom, most of the economic affairs are controlled by the people, and not by the state. Sure, it is more socialist (government-controlled) than the United States, but it is no-where near completely or even mostly socialist.
"Socialism is not a totalitarian ideology"
It certainly is, as socialism demands totalitarian control of economic matters.
"The one thing that totalitarian governments do have in common is that the guiding ideology turns out to be almost irrelevant."
That is an unusually clear-headed statement. I don't think I've ever heard anyone state this obvious fact in these silly online debates. Of course there is little difference between Lenin and Hitler, as two examples. The guiding ideology does indeed turn out to be almost irrelevant. The people being slaughtered care little whether or not the dictator is doing it to help the poor, or to bring about the natural supremacy of this or that race. It is all just window-dressing.
"Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Britain does not enter the next Imperialistic war carried out by USA (likely Iran)..."
No, the US retaliation against Iraq was anti-imperialistic.
Any effort against Iran would also be anti-imperialistic, as Iran is an imperialist power that has invaded Lebanon with its Hesbollah army, and it has stated openly its goal of invading Israel and exterminating its people.
"I think they would have been shocked with the concept of atheism/agnostism (ie. lack of God)."
Atheism is just another religious faith like any other; of course atheists should be free to have their faith.
"especially given that the Church was corrupt and many Amerians actually fled Europe to get away from the Church"
The Church? Some history reading might be in order. "The Church" capitalized typically refers to the Catholic church. However, starting with the famous "Pilgrims", you should realize that there were plenty of churches to escape besides the Catholics.
"So communism is more corrupt than fascism?"
Communism/socialism is a form of fascism. Thus, they tend to be as corrupt as each other.
However, the lie is more boldfaced in the socialist form of fascism than it is in other forms. The socialists oppress people while saying "We are doing it to help the poor" while the others don't bother with such deceptive excuses as much.
Fortunately a strong culture of free speech among the media makes for a good alternative to a constitution in limiting those controls.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
>Actually racist web sites are shut down every day in America. The most recent one was the "Church of the Creator" which was shutdown for a "trademark violation."
>I believe in complete free expression. If you don't like it, don't look at it.
Likely a bullshit trademark lawsuit too. I think Matt Hale got a little too annoying for The Powers That Be. **ahem** AIPAC **ahem** Arial Sharon**
I think if you read the article carefully, you will realize that the reason other Yahoo groups were blocked was because of a technical issue. The Indian Govt did not set out to cut off Indian citizens from the internet, or to ban free speech or anything like that. I am an Indian, I lived in India for 22 years, and I dont think "democracy is in trouble" or any such thing is true as far as India is concerned. The corruption in government or things like that dont make India any less of a democracy -- in a government of the people, the people are free to screw themselves over, if they want to. Name one democracy that is not corrupt to some degree. I'm not defending corruption or the corrupt officials, just saying that I've never felt more free than in India.
"It's just that the main 2 parties in USA have been brainwashing everyone"
Yeah....everyone who believes something different from you is brainwashed.
The truth is that these 2 parties are the only ones who seek to serve the public interest. The other ones fail get far because they only try to represent something like 4% of the population.