The writings been on the wall for years that any PC only dev house should prepare to go console/multiplatform. What's funny is that all these PC devs complain about the console dev process and then you hear that their company has folded or split up and that they're doing flash games or cell phone games.
That's a sign of a badly designed game no matter what the platform.
There are console games that have minimal loading times. For example EQOA on the PS2. You can walk/run/swim from Fayspires to the Kappa fortress on Odus without seeing a single load screen. Cross zone lines and immediately cross back, no load screens! My guess it dynamically loads data on the fly from the DVD.
The worst offenders load screen wise on consoles are almost always PC ports. Why they don't use that EQOA trick is beyond me.
Well you might not want to run Linux on a PS2 because of the performance issues, (32MB of RAM). and finding a Linux kit for sale is difficult. You'll have to check ebay because the kit is out of stock permanently in NTSC territory.
But hooking up a keyboard is easy, USB and an Ethernet only Network adapter came with the kit.
Sony probably figured that all that documentation on the discs was enough.
I'm surprised that don't have that kit up and running at the MSI in Chi-town. You'd think they'd at least boot it up to run the vu demos, or show off dillo running on XFCE or something. Heck they could even record some kind of announcement: "this is a Playstatoin 2 equipped with Sony's Linux kit intended for amateur developement. The kit includes the installed 40 gigabyte HD....." and have it constantly play via XMMS.
If PS3 runs Linux & Firefox & Thunderbird & Emacs & Open Office; and has access to a network and a hard drive, I will buy one and probably use it as my primary computer both at work and at home
Playstation 2's do run Linux, and Firefox, Thunderbird, and Emacs. (but I use vi) I haven't tried compiling OO.:-) Abiword works though.
I wouldn't be surprised that if the PS3's HD does come with Linux installed that you would probably be able to download PS3 binaries of Firefox, Thunderbird, whatever from some PS3 Linux community site. That is if they don't come pre-installed.
Odds are it won't be running Linux as it's base minimal in the firmware OS. But, odds are it will have a Linux distro on the HD. Wouldn't be surprised at all if it wasn't a Fedora variant, since Linux for Playstation 2 was a Red Hat variant.
Yeah, some of us kit owners have been pestering Sony to do another batch of kits for folks like you who missed out on the original release in May of 2002, but so far, nothing. Your best bet is ebay.
I owned a PSone with screen and battery packs for it. My favorite game to play on it when in wating roms and the like was the PSone port of Diablo, due to the save at any time feature of that game.
Let me tell you that thing got attention. The large bright screen, the same games you can play at home. People would ask where they could get a screen and packs for their PSones. I told them, and also told them the price, which caused people to wince.
And now there's the PSP. People marvel at that screen and the games and what it can do, but when you tell them the price they wince. To me it's a steal, $250 for what it does. But non-geeks, they don't realize that, and SCEA's marketing hasn't helped much.
1. The games cost too much in many people's eyes. Thanks to Nintendo, people think portable games should cost $29.99 or less. And Sony thinks that by telling people that the PSP's games are almost PS2 quality that customers will pay more. But... people are resisting that.
2. To get the most out of your PSP you need a PC and a wireless connection. A lot of people don't have that.
3. The PSP "looks" fragile and delicate and some people worry about it. (It's really not that delicate)
4. Sony hasn't done a good job of explaining what the PSP can do. (Even the PSP manual is lacking in this respect) Making the best use of a PSP requires computing literacy and frankly a lot of people seem to be lacking in that department I was very much surprised that the PSP did not ship with SonicStage and ImageConverter on disc for ones PC. Heck I'm surprised that Sony isn't offering a SonicStage for HD equipped PS2's.
5. UMD movies cost too much. I'm willing to buy them, but not at the current prices.
6. I"m not complaining about the lack of games because I'm old and don't have lots of time. I also own the Diablo-like Untold Legends which keeps me happy hacking and slashing. But...if I was one of those teenagers or college kids with lots of summer free time I'd have burned right through my games and would be wanting more. Right now there are only two other games in the PSP's in store lineups that I'd like to own, those being Lumines and the Hot Shots Golf game. But as stated above the 39.95 price is somewhat discouraging.
7. Downloadable games. Even if Sony wants to discourage emulation of a competitors older hardware, they could approach the people who port things like Nethack http://virtuamunstaz.de/nh/ or that VNC client and say hey, we'll "sign" your binaries so they'll run on any PSP and host them on our site
There are some encouraging signs though, they've got that new portal that you can get to from a preset bookmark in the 2.0 browser. http://psp.us.playstation.com/ (go to psp.connect.com/ with a PSP too)
Personally I think judging the PSP a "failure" is a bit premature.
Sony decided that a hard drive and network card were best sold seperate from the PS2, so the consumer could buy them later if they wanted. Wait....the hard drive bit sounds familiar.... (Again, in all fairness there aren't too terribly many games...that I'm aware of....that use the network adapter, and fewer still (FFXI? Is that all?) that actually need the HDD.)
There's plenty of games that use the Network Adapter. here's a list: over 150
I wouldn't be surprised if a Sony Connect/SonicStage software type thing showed up for the PS3. In fact I was expecting something of the sort for the PS2 and/or PSP.
Yes, it can be done with a kernel patch (the BWLINUX patch) that lets you access the full contents of a card.
One wouldn't even need to transfer the files to a PC over the network. The PS2 Linux kit can use USB storage devices so just hook up a PSP or cheap card reader.
it's pretty much the default ones that really matter since a lot of people will not be willing to design a game for what most users may not own.
It can't be that hard to just throw in keyboard/moust support as an extra. We all know of PC games like sports titles that can be played with the keyboard/mouse or with some Dual Shock lookalike controller. They don't have to design the game around a specific control scheme/set up at all.
That said, a kbm setup will work with pretty much every game out there, where as a controller setup will not.
The keyboard isn't analog. I'd hate to try to play a game like Spyro (or other 3D platformer) with one. I haven't seen a genre yet that couldn't be done with a gamepad with some UI tweaking. That's partly my point, the keyboard allows for bad UI design. It's one reason I think Diablo-likes make better console games than PC games.
What honestly do you think consoles are?
Computers, but many PC gamers don't consider them as such. Obviously you do.
It may not have been a market, but personal computers have always been used for gaming since the days of their conception.
That's also partly my point, the PC, as a mass karket gaming platform is going the way of the dodo.
if you believe in any way that independant development on a console is in any way comparable to that on a PC, then you sir, are retarded.
I'm not saying it's equal, I'm just saying it can be done.
How are you going to be painting textures and putting together models on your ps2 linux? Oh, right, you're not.
I assume one could use GIMP for the textures, (yes it's in there) I know there's conversion tools to convert formats. I don't think the hardcore PS2 Linux developers do much traditional modeling. But since some indie development is for web based 2D games anymore, one could always use Python, Pygame and SDL to do one of those. Get yourself a prototype game running and show it to a dev house/publisher if you want.
But I think it's becoming clear from your other posts that you're a little ps2 fanboy.
I think that the PS2 is the best overall value in electronic gaming at this time. I think it has a better and more diverse gaming lineup than the other gaming consoles. I think it has the best control pad. If that makes me a fanboy, so be it.
Otherwise it's the PC that is the home of independant development, it always has been, and always will be. There's a myriad of free and cheap-but-good tools available to pc users to accomplish every task needed in game development (something that may be foriegn to you).
Oh sure lots of indie development on the PC, no doubt about that. But it's not enough to sustain it as a commercial platform. It wasn't enough for the Amiga (or for Linux for that matter), and it won't be enough for the PC. So you'll still be getting Diablo clones and low budget FPS's from eastern Europe, but the number of commercial releases will drop. You'll still get those harcore wargames and flight sims, but you won't find them in stores, and they won't sell more than 20000 copies, if even that. As a major commerical gaming platform the PC is going to go bye bye.
Why would you do that? Even if your console of choice and your television support HDTV, do you really want to play an MMORPG from fifteen feet away? You're still going to need a place to put your USB mouse and keyboard so you can play.
Why wouldn't you?
Fifteen feet? More like 6 feet. And you can just use a tv tray, cushioned portable writing pad, or just put the keyboard on your lap. It's not clunky at all.
Two things. Again, there's nothing like playing a few inches away from the interface and the screen. It immerses you. It puts you into the action as opposed to reclining on your sofa with a 20 foot cable seperating you and the screen and the action.
So playing 6 feet from a big TV isn't immersive? And who the heck reclines while playing games, never understood that at all. By the way, the usual length of a controller cable is 6 feet.
And you do know that most console cames use a degree of "auto-aiming" to compensate for the shitty accuracy with the controllers, right?
The ones that I've seen that have it, it can be turned off. For myself, non analog WASD movement is shitty. But now you'e getting into the FPS's thing again. There are other genre's.
So a casual gamer is a gamer that doesn't play PC games?
It seems funny to me that other people posting in this thread are so keen on discussing the upgradability of PC's and here you are saying you don't need to upgrade and have been playing Quake for 9 years.
Define much more skill
Define competitive
There isn't a single genre out there that couldn't be played with a analog pad with some modifications to the control system. That's good UI design at it's core.
Slashdot Mirror
The writings been on the wall for years that any PC only dev house should prepare to go console/multiplatform. What's funny is that all these PC devs complain about the console dev process and then you hear that their company has folded or split up and that they're doing flash games or cell phone games.
That's a sign of a badly designed game no matter what the platform.
There are console games that have minimal loading times. For example EQOA on the PS2. You can walk/run/swim from Fayspires to the Kappa fortress on Odus without seeing a single load screen. Cross zone lines and immediately cross back, no load screens! My guess it dynamically loads data on the fly from the DVD.
The worst offenders load screen wise on consoles are almost always PC ports. Why they don't use that EQOA trick is beyond me.
Gamepad only? Not since the Genesis days. (first console with a mouse)
Games that could benefit from alternate control types on the consoles usually (but not always) support such things.
I've got one of those original dual analog sticks for the PSone, the BIG one. It's fun playing Mechwarrior 2 with it.
I've got a PSone mouse too and games that support it. (Don't even think about playing Alien Resurrection without the PSone mouse)
The PS2 has things easier with it's USB ports. I'm looking at the back of the box of my copy of the PS2 port of Half Life. [USB Keyboard/Mouse]
Drag select with D-pad doesn't work? Could have fooled me, works fine on the console RTS's I've played. They also had mouse support.
Those were PSone games though, for the PS2 the D-pad itself is analog and there's the nice analog sticks and USB ports for a mouse.
Control isn't an issue with PC to console ports unless the dev house doesn't do a good job.
Well you might not want to run Linux on a PS2 because of the performance issues, (32MB of RAM). and finding a Linux kit for sale is difficult. You'll have to check ebay because the kit is out of stock permanently in NTSC territory.
But hooking up a keyboard is easy, USB and an Ethernet only Network adapter came with the kit.
and of course the official Playstation 2 Linux site: http://playstation2-linux.com/
Sony probably figured that all that documentation on the discs was enough.
I'm surprised that don't have that kit up and running at the MSI in Chi-town. You'd think they'd at least boot it up to run the vu demos, or show off dillo running on XFCE or something. Heck they could even record some kind of announcement: "this is a Playstatoin 2 equipped with Sony's Linux kit intended for amateur developement. The kit includes the installed 40 gigabyte HD....." and have it constantly play via XMMS.
The Linux kit will display NTSC, PAL, and DTV if one wants. You're correct on the niche thing, but I really have got a lot of use out of my kit.
Playstation 2's do run Linux, and Firefox, Thunderbird, and Emacs. (but I use vi) I haven't tried compiling OO.
I wouldn't be surprised that if the PS3's HD does come with Linux installed that you would probably be able to download PS3 binaries of Firefox, Thunderbird, whatever from some PS3 Linux community site. That is if they don't come pre-installed.
Odds are it won't be running Linux as it's base minimal in the firmware OS. But, odds are it will have a Linux distro on the HD. Wouldn't be surprised at all if it wasn't a Fedora variant, since Linux for Playstation 2 was a Red Hat variant.
Yeah, some of us kit owners have been pestering Sony to do another batch of kits for folks like you who missed out on the original release in May of 2002, but so far, nothing. Your best bet is ebay.
I enjoy my PSP, a lot, but...disclaimers follow:
I owned a PSone with screen and battery packs for it. My favorite game to play on it when in wating roms and the like was the PSone port of Diablo, due to the save at any time feature of that game.
Let me tell you that thing got attention. The large bright screen, the same games you can play at home. People would ask where they could get a screen and packs for their PSones. I told them, and also told them the price, which caused people to wince.
And now there's the PSP. People marvel at that screen and the games and what it can do, but when you tell them the price they wince. To me it's a steal, $250 for what it does. But non-geeks, they don't realize that, and SCEA's marketing hasn't helped much.
1. The games cost too much in many people's eyes. Thanks to Nintendo, people think portable games should cost $29.99 or less. And Sony thinks that by telling people that the PSP's games are almost PS2 quality that customers will pay more. But... people are resisting that.
2. To get the most out of your PSP you need a PC and a wireless connection. A lot of people don't have that.
3. The PSP "looks" fragile and delicate and some people worry about it. (It's really not that delicate)
4. Sony hasn't done a good job of explaining what the PSP can do. (Even the PSP manual is lacking in this respect) Making the best use of a PSP requires computing literacy and frankly a lot of people seem to be lacking in that department I was very much surprised that the PSP did not ship with SonicStage and ImageConverter on disc for ones PC. Heck I'm surprised that Sony isn't offering a SonicStage for HD equipped PS2's.
5. UMD movies cost too much. I'm willing to buy them, but not at the current prices.
6. I"m not complaining about the lack of games because I'm old and don't have lots of time. I also own the Diablo-like Untold Legends which keeps me happy hacking and slashing. But...if I was one of those teenagers or college kids with lots of summer free time I'd have burned right through my games and would be wanting more. Right now there are only two other games in the PSP's in store lineups that I'd like to own, those being Lumines and the Hot Shots Golf game. But as stated above the 39.95 price is somewhat discouraging.
7. Downloadable games. Even if Sony wants to discourage emulation of a competitors older hardware, they could approach the people who port things like Nethack http://virtuamunstaz.de/nh/ or that VNC client and say hey, we'll "sign" your binaries so they'll run on any PSP and host them on our site
There are some encouraging signs though, they've got that new portal that you can get to from a preset bookmark in the 2.0 browser. http://psp.us.playstation.com/ (go to psp.connect.com/ with a PSP too)
Personally I think judging the PSP a "failure" is a bit premature.
Sony PSP's with the 2.0 firmware will play DRM-less AAC (you have to change the extension to mp4)
AAC is not a closed format, it's the Fairplay DRM that can be attached to it thats closed.
Take the CD's you ripped into iTunes, transfer the songs over to a Sony PSP (renaming the extension to mp4), they'll play.
The following consoles have had keyboards and/or mice available for them:
SNES
Genesis
Saturn
Dreamcast
3DO
Playstation
Playstation 2
Gamecube
Xbox
So it's not that the input devices don't exist, it's just that traditional PC dev houses don't port their sims/RTS's or whatnot to the consoles.
Lets see,
Starcraft got ported to the N64
Warcraft 2 to the PSone
C&C, C&C Red Alert, C&C Red Alert: Retaliation to the PSone. (and I have heard C&C RA is getting ported to the PSP.)
Warcraft 3 and the later C&C's didn't get ported.
Sony has never used bits, only bytes. Nintendo is the one that always stated ROM sizes in bits.
There's plenty of games that use the Network Adapter. here's a list: over 150
URL:http://www.us.playstation.com/onlinegaming.as
The HD has 5 games that support it that I know of:
FFXI
Resident Evil Outbreak 1 & 2
SOCOM II
RPG Maker 3
And there's the Linux kit.
In Japan of course, the HD has greater support because it came out on schedule. SCEA waited too long for FFXI (they wanted an HD selling killer app)
Why would you need an adapter to plug a keyboard/mouse into a Playstation 2? The PS2 has USB ports so you just plug any USB keyboard/mosue in.
I wouldn't be surprised if a Sony Connect/SonicStage software type thing showed up for the PS3. In fact I was expecting something of the sort for the PS2 and/or PSP.
the PS2 Linux kit is. :-)
Yes, it can be done with a kernel patch (the BWLINUX patch) that lets you access the full contents of a card.
One wouldn't even need to transfer the files to a PC over the network. The PS2 Linux kit can use USB storage devices so just hook up a PSP or cheap card reader.
I wonder why it has problems loading images at Slashdot? I just turned them off to make /. usable. I have not seen this "quirk" anywhere else.
It can't be that hard to just throw in keyboard/moust support as an extra. We all know of PC games like sports titles that can be played with the keyboard/mouse or with some Dual Shock lookalike controller. They don't have to design the game around a specific control scheme/set up at all.
The keyboard isn't analog. I'd hate to try to play a game like Spyro (or other 3D platformer) with one. I haven't seen a genre yet that couldn't be done with a gamepad with some UI tweaking. That's partly my point, the keyboard allows for bad UI design. It's one reason I think Diablo-likes make better console games than PC games.
Computers, but many PC gamers don't consider them as such. Obviously you do.
That's also partly my point, the PC, as a mass karket gaming platform is going the way of the dodo.
I'm not saying it's equal, I'm just saying it can be done.
I assume one could use GIMP for the textures, (yes it's in there) I know there's conversion tools to convert formats. I don't think the hardcore PS2 Linux developers do much traditional modeling. But since some indie development is for web based 2D games anymore, one could always use Python, Pygame and SDL to do one of those. Get yourself a prototype game running and show it to a dev house/publisher if you want.
I think that the PS2 is the best overall value in electronic gaming at this time. I think it has a better and more diverse gaming lineup than the other gaming consoles. I think it has the best control pad. If that makes me a fanboy, so be it.
Oh sure lots of indie development on the PC, no doubt about that. But it's not enough to sustain it as a commercial platform. It wasn't enough for the Amiga (or for Linux for that matter), and it won't be enough for the PC. So you'll still be getting Diablo clones and low budget FPS's from eastern Europe, but the number of commercial releases will drop. You'll still get those harcore wargames and flight sims, but you won't find them in stores, and they won't sell more than 20000 copies, if even that. As a major commerical gaming platform the PC is going to go bye bye.
Why wouldn't you?
Fifteen feet? More like 6 feet. And you can just use a tv tray, cushioned portable writing pad, or just put the keyboard on your lap. It's not clunky at all.
So playing 6 feet from a big TV isn't immersive? And who the heck reclines while playing games, never understood that at all. By the way, the usual length of a controller cable is 6 feet.
The ones that I've seen that have it, it can be turned off. For myself, non analog WASD movement is shitty. But now you'e getting into the FPS's thing again. There are other genre's.
So a casual gamer is a gamer that doesn't play PC games?
It seems funny to me that other people posting in this thread are so keen on discussing the upgradability of PC's and here you are saying you don't need to upgrade and have been playing Quake for 9 years.
Define much more skill
Define competitive
There isn't a single genre out there that couldn't be played with a analog pad with some modifications to the control system. That's good UI design at it's core.