Slashdot Mirror
Apple Rumored to Be After Samsung Flash Memory
Steve Nixon writes "An unconfirmed report today from Reuters quotes an industry analyst firm iSuppli as saying that Apple plans to buy as much as 40 percent of Samsung's second-half flash memory output.
The NAND flash memory cards will be used in a new, 4 GB iPod Mini, which Apple would release in time for the holiday shopping season, the report stated. The current version of the 4 GB mini contains a hard drive. Apple's iPod Shuffle uses flash memory."
Flash memory is going to do wonders for both battery life and size. Maybe I'll buy one of the new iPod minis if the rumors are true.
Finance tutorials and more! Understandfinance
Rumors for nerds. Stuff that may turn out to matter tomorrow.
I would buy that. Never liked the idea of jogging with a hard drive strapped to my arm.
Why is it all I see on Slashdot now-a-days is stories that were on engadget yesterday?
"It just feels snappier!"
to
"It just seems flashier!"
All your memory are belong to us. Well 40% of it anyways. After we pay you for it.
Sincerely,
Apple Computer
I hope this will help drive down the cost of flash memory so that flash-based hard drives will become available to the general public. Silent, less power-hungry, more reliable. How longer will we have to put up with very fragile magnetic disks spinning at 7000+ rpm under a head that would cut them in half if contact occurred...
Global warming is a cube.
what kind of price changes would we expect to see, if any? right now id love to get an iPod, but they are a take on the expensive side. Would be nice if it dropped just a little for the cheapo people like myself :)
Having a 4GB iPod for $50 less thana full iPod seemed like a bad idea, but it worked. I'm wondering if using flash, which should increase price, will shorten the gap between the Mini and the low-end iPod. Then again, maybe apple wants people to notice the GB/price ratio and get the full-fledged iPod instead.
I don't get it.
I don't think the big news here is that Apple is making a Shuffle-Mini hybrid, but that Fourty percent of the world's Samsung Flash memory stock is going to be eaten by a single buyer. Think about how many different manufacturers and resellers buy that memory - and 40% of it is going to Apple. Wow.
Rex is 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
More info here
Looks like Samsung is wooing Apple with a price reduction. Samsung also makes mp3 players. Seems like they would hoard the memory for themselves. Maybe they have figured out the sweet spot, in terms of profit, of how much to keep for themselves and how much to sell to the best selling brand.
Sooooo is it just me or does a 4 gig piece of flash memory cost significantly more than a 4 gig hard disk? How were they planning on making up for that? Increase in price? Or will they market it differently than the 4 gig minis currently being sold with the hard drive.
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
An iPod mini with flash memory instead of a hard drive obviously would have much better battery life and be significantly lighter.
What's it worth to you, though? $300? Will we have to wait a while before the price point becomes attractive? For me, frankly, battery life has never been an issue.
Best Windows Freeware
Hopefully this would push down the size of the iPod mini. I can't help but hide a smile when people talk about how small the minis are, when you can get 10 times the storage on something only about twice as big...
Until the iPod mini is really small (like shuffle size), it is just impractical for people with decent sized music collections. The size and weight you save vs the large models isn't enough to outweigh the loss in capacity. Of course, I guess it's ok for people who call 64kbps "near CD quality"...
Okay, my comedic skills have failed me (as have my numchuck [sic] skills, my bo staff skills, my computer hacking skills, etc.)...Anyway, I was trying to come with some sort of joke about flash memory. You know, something about being flashed, the memory of being flashed, whatever...but no, I've got nothing. I can't find the proper set up or timing. Any of you have better skill at executing this idea?
Just doing a quick search of retail prices, it looks like I could get a 4 GB compact flash card for about $250, while a 4 GB microdrive runs about $200. Anyone know what the price is like on the Samsung NAND flash memory? The article claims Samsung would have to drop prices 50% to match microdrives, but that seems like a little much - how much less power does NAND flash memory use than a microdrive, and how much less battery would a flash-based device need for comparable performance?
You don't constantly add, remove, and overwrite files on the drive. The one drawback to using flash media is that it has a Limited Life Span. You can only write to each cell a certain number of times. So don't rush out and buy these if you plan on changing up what's on your list often.
Cliff Claven
K.E.G. Party Chairman
Founding Leader of: Koncerned for Egalitarin Governance
The silver lining is that Samsung also makes mp3/ogg players, so Apple can't have a complete monopoly. They say they will have a 4gb flash player out next year.
Nothing says Apple has to stick with using only one 4GB flash memory... (beyond price).
A smaller Mini that holds 8GB might go over well, and fit even better between the large iPods and the Shuffle.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
People, just how many DAPS do you need?
Hey everyone, throw out your first gen & 2nd gen DAP's because our innovation is sure to please!
My Creative JB2 is still playing (24/7) since christmas 2001. I liked it so much that I bought an IRiver H320 to be able to record at bitrates up to 320kbs. I suppose I'll buy another upgrade someday but why go lateral when it boils down to "It does the same thing" (but wait... that nasty consumerizm is the monkey on my back and gosh it is from apple!)
It would be nice to see more features not more stripped-out things that have been done previously.
Now if it can record at 320kbs and not be DRM heavy, I'll consider it
God: When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
Apple put a mouse on every one of their computers - now every computer has a mouse (or equivalent). Apple put a CD-ROM in every Mac - now every computer has one. Apple put ethernet in every Mac - now it's default standard. Apple put a "universal serial bus" in every Mac, for data and media, and now we all use them. If they replace HDs with FlashROM for all personal storage, we might just all get to leave the rotating discs behind, connected to the network. Go, Apple, go!
--
make install -not war
Samsung: "Apple is always after me lucky flash memory; it's expensively shock-resistant!"
This has been brought up in photography circles for quite some time. A surprising number of people were adverse to flash based Compact Flash (CF) cards because of this.
BUT - you get unlimited reads, lots and lots of writes (about 10^6 with modern cards) and the write longevity can be improved by buffering algorithms. I wouldn't use flash for a swap file, but unless your taste in music changes every 30 seconds, flash memory should be just fine.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Different business units.
One make mp3 players. another makes flash memory. While the mp3 player biz will probably get some preferential treatment, the flash guys have revenue quotas, just like everybody else.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Ah, the Apple rumor-mill. I wonder how many kool-aid drinkers who already own 4GB iPods will go out and buy a 4GB Flash iPod if/when they get released to get an extra two hours of battery life and a product that's an ounce lighter than what they had before. Does anyone really care about how light they are? 3.6 ounces is nothing.
...or even a DVD-iPod.
What I don't like about harddrives is that thowing them around isn't good at all. In addition, they rotate at 5200 RPMs at minimum which isn't good for the battery. And constantly stopping the drive reduces its life rapidly. Actually, shutting down (even correctly!) a harddisk is the most damaging thing that can happen to it.
Flash memory is slow to write, and it wears off in rewrite cycles. Actually, all Siemens S45i phones I've seen had their flash memory broken because the phone constantly rewrote the addressbook. If you buy a flashdrive, it will probably have a notice about it supporting no more than 1000-10000 rewrites.
I don't know if there's any progress happening, but I'm know that it was the situation 3 years ago .
CDs on the other hand can be easily thrown away if broken.
Also, they can have DRM that doesn't discriminate the user:
for example, for each song recorded there can be an included license for the specific playback device. The song can have the license included directly at iTunes Store and then burned to the CD without having to be saved anywhere at the harddisk. The user can be allowed to copy the CD because it won't play on any device except the one listed in the license.
...which has the best MTBF Vs. Cost? Flash or HD?
Given the history of CF cards on my digital camera, I'm not going to rush out when this releases. Anyone got some good hard data on which rules for this sort of thing and not "well, Apple must have done their homework if they're doing it". I leave everything before Mac OSX as evidence that they ain't perfect.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
"An unconfirmed report today from Reuters quotes an industry analyst firm iSuppli as saying that Apple plans to buy as much as 40 percent of Samsung's second-half flash memory output."
In related news, iSuppli's shares in Samsung skyrocket.
stop freeloading then. (see: copyright infringement)
Any chance of replacing sick ( or just power hungry ) disk drives in current models with flash ?
Though, im sure they will be different enough to force you to buy new...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I remember 10 years ago when people were debating if it could even be done. Now it is so everywhere! I just bought a 1G SD card for $70(US) WOW!
I can just see the new mini's ad:
Now with even less moving parts!
---
my confirmation word is : paints
I don't know what kind of internets you've been logging onto lately but on mine, OGG is still pretty rare to come by. Besides if you are geek enough to want OGG support, you are geek enough to use iPod Linux and make it play whatever you want.
...troll or no, that's the funniest damn thing I've read all day. Thank you :)
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
you are not funny, please shoot yourself in the face.
Flash is far more expensive per unit of memory than disk drives. Engadget.com is estimating that Apple might get as much as a 50% price reduction from Samsung. However, even at such a sharply reduced cost, a 20GB flash iPod would likely cost ~$500 or more. The current market surely won't support such an expensive 20GB MP3 player.
While thinking philosophically, we see problems in places where there are none. -Wittgenstein
And here's a great big reason why Apple doesn't support Ogg Vorbis (besides the fact that it doesn't do anything for you that MP3 doesn't), it's widely used for distributing music on bittorrent based sites, that is to say that it is widely used in piracy, and Apple doesn't need to get assfucked by the RIAA over iPod sales for a bunch of geeks, especially after the Grokster decision.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Are you listening, Apple? I'll actually money on you!
- Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
Mobility Electronics aka iGo sells the universal charger you're looking for. Buy one converter and a tip to match each of your electronic devices. They even sell a base model which can plug into AC/Car/Plane, so you're even less likely to be without power. I've got one for my Dell laptop, and tips for my PDA and cellphone. Nifty and convenient, but expensive ($100 for the converter, $10 for the tips).
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
like a p-nus?
http://www.macslash.org/
Ok, I have to wonder, why these never caught on. I have a mini-disc player and I love it.
I get 30 hours off of one AA, 15 off the rechargable.
I can throw my MP3's on it easily, (sonicstage sure, stupid program, but its easy)
I pay $5 for 1GB discs and it came with one.
Playlist management on the device.
Plus I can record through a mic to it, transfer back and forth and whatnot.
It has never skipped for me.
They are fairly small, smaller than an IPod.
USB, optical or stereo jack in.
Anyway, yea, I would love to be enlightened
It's only an in-joke amongst slashdot Mac users. To your regular run-of-the-mill Mac user it's the truth (or gospel depending on how you swing).
*sniff* and I tried so hard!
Those idiots who distribute music that cannot be played on a majority of the world's digital music players are the problem, not Apple.
There'd be no point to Samsung hoarding memory to themselves if they can't sell it. As things are now, best case scenario, Samsung might be able to wrangle a somewhat bigger minority share of the mp3 player market. If they cut this deal with Apple, Samsung gets to benefit from Apple's huge share.
It only seems like a bad idea if you think only in terms of raw storage space. In the end the choice between a Mini and the full sized iPod is also one of form factor, where the significantly smaller size adds a lot of value, especially if people are not going to be listening to more than 4GB of music anyway (every person has an amount of storage beyond which nothing is useful).
I don't think using Flash will increase price. What I thgink will happen in the new flash iPods will be smaller still, with longer battery life - at the same price as the old Mini. Alternatley (depending on how cheap it is to buy in that large a quantity) I could see all of the above being true plus perhaps expanding storage to 8GB (by using two) instead of 4GB - it could even cost the same as larger iPods though and it wouldn't matter, since again the forma factor is different enough to make it a factor. Even if they were the same price I might well choose the Mini over a larger iPod (especially if one is flash and one not or battery life is dramatically different).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Not nearly as widely used as MP3, and that didn't stop Apple from supporting it.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
That is all.
If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up. - Comedian Mitch Hedberg R.I.P. 03/30/68-2/24/05
Done deal
8 25/bs_nf/37954
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nf/20050
Sure this will happen. Just as soon as Apple gets a multi-button mou...
or goes with x86 architectu...
or creates a UNIX-based operating syst...
"Steve Jobs is always after me Lucky Charms!"
oh look, apple's making more ipods, with larger capacities and maybe thinner nothing new to see here.
How long until all that flash memory makes its way into a part flash, part magnetic hdd. The kind that can have almost instant standby and resume. Will need to have at least 6-10gb of flash memory. It will be nice when we can finally buy a 10/500gb hdd
(10 flash, 500 magnetic)
F7 doesn't work, ignore spelling and grammar
They're making a name for themselves this week! Lots of rumours and speculation :)
over Apple. I sense backhanders in return for hype
Bad journalism or maybe just useless English composition skills: it is rumoured
that Apple want flash memory. Then they say they *WILL* be used in 4GB iPod
Mini's. How can you have an unconfirmed rumour and attach such certainty in it?
Neko
oh wait, that's right, the VAST MAJORITY of pirated sound files are MP3s.
A mini-disc player is larger than an iPod mini.
The (2nd gen, since February) iPod mini plays "18 hours" (tests show more like 25) on the internal rechargeable battery.
An iPod mini holds 4X as much (although it cannot be swapped).
It actually does take mp3s, and fast. Unlike the mini-disc which has to convert them. Slowly, using that awful software.
It has playlist management on the device.
iPod Mini cannot record.
iPod mini doesn't skip either.
It's smaller than the mini-disc player.
It has USB in only.
And it works with a good program, iTunes, not a crappy one.
I'm not saying what you have isn't serviceable. But if you used the iPod Mini, you'd be able to tell the difference, you'd understand.
Mini-disc was doing very well in many countries outside the US. Its market share is now a tiny sliver of the market with the release of good mp3 players like the iPod mini. Even in Japan, Mini-Disc is over now.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
When flash was SLC (stored a single bit per cell). Now NAND flash stores multiple bits per cell (2 bits, 4 values) and the lifetime of the cell is rated at 10,000 writes instead of 100,000. Now I can agree you'll likely get a lot more writes than that, but it'll be more like 100,000 instead of the 1,000,000 you quote.
NAND flash systems use wear levelling, so they spread out that wear, and the flash should last a long time. I still think a hard drive would last longer, but I dunno.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Will this improve their Performance/Watt rating?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I'm an Apple zealot, I'm typing this on a Mac Mini, and I'm going to be clicking submit with my one mouse button, but there is no way I'll be buying a flash-based iPod. My free upgrade phone is on order (a Sony Ericsson K750), it has a USB connector, plays mp3s and takes a Memory Stick Duo Pro card (currently maxing out at 2Gb, but 4Gb version promised soon).
By the time Apple gets to market, I'll have all it's functionality plus the ESSENTIAL feature of automatically stopping playing when my phone rings, just by adding a card to my phone - which also has the simple game play and video playback functionality that is missing from iPods (even if Sony forgot to add a usable fast forward/rewind or pause button).
I'd love have an Apple device in my pocket, because they get the user interface right in ways that Sony Ericsson can't be bothered to think about, but until they have a LOT more functionality, I can't justify buying one.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
is that if apple buys up 40% of their production, they're likely to seriously increase their production in the next year, and the market will likely be flooded in a couple years. it has been a long time coming, but flash ram is about to undergo a serious price drop. combined with continual improvements in scaling and capacity, perhaps this means we'll have 40GB flash drives by 2007. that ought to shake things up a bit...
The last I heard, Samsung was looking to increase its portable music player marketshare in 2006 to something like 10%, and become the dominant player (no pun intended) in the market by the end of 2007. If so, why sell cheap memory to its biggest competitor?
K750i is an okay phone. It's no iPod, but I can see where you're coming from here.
The k750i doesn't even have a proper headphone jack. Pretty crazy for a music player, eh?
I don't know what your idea that iPods don't have game play functionality. iPods currently have 4 games on them. Honestly, if you ask me, that's 4 too many. But either way, I don't see how you can say they don't have it.
For the price of that 2GB MS Pro Duo, you could pretty much have an iPod.
I'd have a k750i if it had GSM 850. But I know it wouldn't replace my iPod. I like to leave my iPod in the car when I go inside the store, or even play music from it at home. I'd prefer to have my phone in my pocket while doing these things.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
It's an amazing feat of psychopathic proctology, which no sane woman would attempt for any amount of money. But there are a few crazy and very elastic porno actresses, probably with heroin addictions to feed, so...
Google "Ashley Blue" for further details.
$200 for a flash drive is nothing.
The current Hitiachi drive alone in the mini is $500.
Agreed. I have abused my iPod as I am a certified klutz (traced through genealogy).. never had a hiccup.
I thought for sure mowing the lawn with it getting vibrated pretty good would cause it to skip. Not the case.
Given the choice though, at equal costs, I'd take a flash drive.
http://homepage.mac.com/chevyorange
In case you haven't been around in the last year, the current minidisc players play mp3s. No encoding to other formats. Also, these have the ability to record in raw PCM stereo, with a mic. And upload it USB to your computer to edit.
That's great. But the guy asked why MDs never took off like ipods. MDs just added the feature you speak of DUE TO the popularity of mp3 players.
If you love DRM, enjoy. Not me.
iTunes DRM has never adversely effected me.
And yes, you can also use the new minidisc models as external USB storage drives. 1GB disc are about $6 each.
See above. I am not giving a state of the union on md's, I am explaining why they didn't take off like ipods.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
Why couldn't you have a two tier tertiary storage system. 6GB of power hungry storage, and 256MB of low power storage, the 32 MB of volatile RAM etc...
That way your iPod wouldn't have to fire up the harddrive half as often. If you need to access your music you can, but providing you don't want to change the playlist / album or are happy with the shuffle selection you'd only need to fire up the HDD every couple of days.
Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
..and Apple doesn't need to get assfucked by the RIAA over iPod sales for a bunch of geeks,...
I don't know about that, but they certainly don't need to get screwed by the RIAA for a very small number of geeky cheapskates who will not likely buy the product anyway.
as far as i understand,flash drive is much smaller compare to microdrive.so does it make it "mini ipod mini"??
That's great. But the guy asked why MDs never took off like ipods. MDs just added the feature you speak of DUE TO the popularity of mp3 players.
Yes, because when the minidisc first came out, there was no such thing as mp3. They developed their own compressed format to carry around your music.
See above. I am not giving a state of the union on md's, I am explaining why they didn't take off like ipods.
Why not say this in the first place before listing off a numbering of seemingly factual statements bashing the 'un-hip' minidisc?
Defending Minidisc vs iTunes, bach37 wrote:
If you love DRM, enjoy. Not me.
Actually I've been stung by minidisc DRM. You're basically limited to one generation of digital copying.
I was putting together a music quiz. First pass attempt was to record an "answers" disc, containing complete versions of the songs, then record snippets from that disc onto another disc, to form a "questions" disc.
It couldn't be done. Minidisc DRM wouldn't permit the second copy. I had to work around it.
Yes, because when the minidisc first came out, there was no such thing as mp3. They developed their own compressed format to carry around your music.
That's right, and then MP3 came out, and Sony stuck to ATRAC. And then MP3 became wildly popular, and sony released "digital music players" and did they support MP3? No. More proprietary sony formats ONLY. Finally they gave up on the latest iteration, and supported MP3.
Why not say this in the first place before listing off a numbering of seemingly factual statements bashing the 'un-hip' minidisc?
Because I wrongly assumed you could read. The person I was responding to asked: "Ok, I have to wonder, why [MD players] never caught on.... I would love to be enlightened."
Clear enough?
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
Like I said, I have a couple common instances where I'd like my mp3 player and my phone to be two separate devices.
Kinda cool though I guess. Thanks for the info. BTW, your link didn't work for me. But a quick search worked since you gave the info.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
ouch dude, if that works out to be true... well... sure, at what price point? Will flash memory storage ever become competitive with hard disk storage at some capacities ? It seriously needs an overhaul but my current main computer sports a 60GB drive, if you know what I'm getting at... I can think of a *lot* of uses for a 40GB flash drive. My digital camera needs one, for starters... camcorders... portable video players... GPS receivers... lots and lots of gadgets can use something like that...
Actually, the great big reason that Apple doesn't support Ogg Vorbis is because Ogg decoding relies heavily on floating point calculations. The iPod doesn't have a floating point unit and isn't capable of decoding Ogg. Recently, a integer-only player called Tremor was developed, but it only can play on an iPod at 80% real time.
My Blog Sucks.