Slashdot Mirror
MS Seeks Entrance Fee to XBox Accessory Market
pwnage writes "According to CNET, Microsoft's newest licensing model for the next-generation XBox will effectively lock out 3rd-party accessory manufacturers who don't enroll in Microsoft's licensing and royalty program. The new console will employ hardware security mechanisms to ensure that only products created by developers willing to fork over cash to Microsoft can connect to and work with the console. Is Microsoft shooting itself in the foot by making traditional 'approved product' licensing mandatory for 3rd-party developers? Or will companies line up by the dozens to tithe to King Bill? Finally, will Sony follow a similar strategy to eke additional revenues out of its PlayStation 3?"
Imagine the possibilities! Sony, and Samsung and RCA and Toshiba and (everyone else) can charge Hollywood studios to be able to play their Movies on my TV, DVD and VCR. DRM we can truly love! But the irony would be sweet.
I have nothing to hide. So, why are you spying on me?
That is all.
It'll probably be more reason for cash straped people will opt for the Nintendo Revolution rather then the more expensive options that are PS3 and X360.
Bad idea for MS. Don't 3rd party accessory companies have a hart time turning a profit as it is? How would paying royalties look like an attractive option. They'll likely just develop for the PS3 or Revolution.
Hopefully along with the fee comes a Microsoft quality screening similar to the process that the games go through. Every gamer knows that first party controllers, memory cards, etc hold up better than most third party, and that there is a huge gap in quality between a Logitech controller and some no-name piece of garbage.
Since Logitech is more likely to pay the fee than a get-rich-quick company making "2x the MEMORY!!" memory cards, hopefully the market will see a big step forwards in the average quality of third party peripherals.
Sorry, son, but that's just WRONG.
I think with the success of the original XBox and the way that things are looking for the XBox 360 companies will fork up the money to do it. Just look at Apple's strategy. It keeps only high quality products being created. This will ensure that the XBox stays a hot product and will also ensure that people aren't exploiting the XBox. I think it's a good move.
Anyone who has looked at the vast majority of 3rd party accessories can tell you that for the most part they are complete trash.
This will force MadCatz to start putting out quality accessories, and not crappy controllers that break 2 weeks after you buy them.
All the games released on a system have to go through a quality control process. There's no reason accessories shouldn't have to go through the same thing.
I wish Slashdot would quit posting boring articles about Microsoft.
...Nintendo Seal Of Approval.
How is Microsoft doing things differently?
I believe the unstated intention is to outlaw unwanted peripherals.
Microsoft must already have put Lik Sang in a blacklist.
This kind of arrogance is often attributed to the downfall of Nintendo (though more so on a software basis). As N came to the top, they got greedy with their control on who could release hardware and also had ridiculous fees for being a developer.
With this in effect, suddenly hardware is going to be more expensive with less competition. With the PS3 and Xbox having basically the same game lineup, this could be part of keeps Sony at the top (assuming they don't do anything stupid like this).
Advice for my fellow geeks: before seeking out that threesome you dream of, you might see what a TWOsome is like first.
Didn't they put a chip in their printers, so that anyone who produced a generic version could be sued under the DMCA?
The Big Yuan - tracking mainland China
This would seem like a fair way to cover some of the huge manufacturing costs of these next-gen consoles. Don't know if that's the case in practice though.
IANAL, but this seems very similar to the Skylink vs. Chamberlain case. http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/packets/vol_1_no_1/00 1496.shtml/
I'm suspecting that after it's broken, either by Xbox-Linux people or by someone else, a company will create a peripheral that uses it. Then I suspect there will be a demand to stop based on the DMCA or similar. A nice long court fight, with either the status quo, or more money for Microsoft via the erosion of the idea that you actually own property. (and continuing with the idea that you can do what you want with your property. They do have court decisions about modchips in their favor.)
It'll end up like SCO. Endlessly debated, (Label A) then a court will rule, it'll be debated more, goto Label A.
No, because the potential pay-off to the 3rd party people is just way to big. They will pay up. But I suspect whatever scheme MS comes up with will be cracked within 72 hours anyway...
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Is Microsoft shooting itself in the foot by making traditional 'approved product' licensing mandatory for 3rd-party developers? Or will companies line up by the dozens to tithe to King Bill?
More likely... Manufacturers will circumvent the protections and make compatible items anyway like with the original NES. There's even prior case law from the original NES days, and even the Lexmark case that will help them get away with it.
So, for those of you old enough to remember, Nintendo charged exhorbitant licensing fees for anyone who wanted to make NES games. The way that they ensured that companies paid this fee was to build a lockout chip called 10NES into NES cartridges which only Nintendo could make. A few companies, most notably Tengen, reverse-engineered the chip, however, and made some unapproved games. Tengen actually cheated and used Nintendo documents to reverse-engineer the chips and ended up getting sued, but if this licensing fee is too high then what is going to stop accessory makers from reverse-engineering the chips and being done with it?
It's steps like this (by Microsoft and previously Nintendo) that may lead developers to return to the PC development environment. If the console corporations get greedy enough, the console will become a less lucrative platform. If the costs to develop on the platform become higher than supporting the variety of hardware on PC's, then developers will choose the lowest cost alternative. This could mean large studios coming back to PC's with more releases and better titles.
Microsoft Sucks, F/OSS Rocks. I get mod points now right?
How long before people start marketting chips that bypass this or revers engineer the chips that the acessories have and put them in 3rd party equipment.
If I were developing a super awesome periphal for the new Xbox, I'd be contacting Sony right about now. OH GOD MY FEETS
If console manufacturers could legally lock out third party accessories, wouldn't they have done it long ago? Nintendo sued Game Genie over patent violations but still couldn't keep them out of the market.
How is this any different from Lexmark's ink cartridge fiasco (a case they lost)? "We'll keep doing it in the face of all of this legal precedent that says we can't" doesn't seem like a sound long-term legal strategy.
seriously, the impact for US market won't matter much, since most stores only carry name brands, even the *generic* accessories they carry is still big names.
the international market, and internet resellers will probably take a hit because of this. but I'm sure those company who didn't pay the license fee can come up with some ways to defeat it..
Ultimately, this will raise the price of peripherals, and discourage their purchase. As I understand the model, they should try everything possible to get the hardware in your hands so that you will buy more games. Especially for those people that buy accessories at the time of the system purchase, it will give them a lot of reasons to consider whether to buy it at all.
I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person that I'm preaching to.
Turn your Xbox into an Sexbox! Obviously not safe for work.
So, if Video Games is a two billion dollar market, why is it so hard to make a profit? Companies are continually going under, being bought or selling below cost. Now they are finding new and exciting ways to tax people who make products for their products. Is this market really so silly as to make production more expensive than the product? In what school is this good business?
It's been said that Microsoft and Sony aren't shooting for control of the video game market, but of a larger market. But I can't help but be reminded of all the web sites that gave out so many promotions and blew through so much money building a name before they got on solid financial ground.
If anything is on Nintendo's side these days its sound financial policy. But will a crash come for the rest? Who will starve and jump ship first? Or will this segment of the market become a cost of doing business? The dream has to end sometime...doesn't it?
Pretty pathetic attempt to recoup a few bucks.
This will obvioulsy make 3rd party cables and controllers more expensive. More importantly though (because first party controller/cables are usually the best anyway), kill the niche peripheral market. Things like game shark, and other 'game enhancement' devices will probably never be aprroved,and then probably be sued if they are released, since they will have to be reversed engineered to work, ultimately, violating the DMCA.
>Is Microsoft shooting itself in the foot by making traditional 'approved product' licensing mandatory for 3rd-party developers? Or will companies line up by the dozens to tithe to King Bill? Finally, will Sony follow a similar strategy to eke additional revenues out of its PlayStation 3?"
Tune in tomorrow for another episode of "The Young and the Restless"
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
As far as MS is concerned, it's a win-win.
It's very unlikely that the accessories for a system will significantly change the sales of that system. With the exception of some fairly serious add-ons (like the Powerglove, Robie, etc), most accessories are just "nice to haves".
If the Xbox 360 does well then companies will flock to MS and gladly pay the license fee. MS makes lots of money off this program, and most of the companies who would have made accessories to begin with will continue to do so because it will still result in a profit.
If the Xbox 360 does poorly, then there wouldn't have been very many 3rd party accessories to begin with.
The only people who lose out in this scenario is small accessories companies who might not be able to afford the cut into their profits, and potentially consumers if these license fees are large enough to cause the accesories to be priced significantly higher.
I'm not too concerned though, it's going to be the same type of situation as it was with the chips in pinter ink cartridges.
1)DRM-like scheme locks out competitor
2)competitor reverse engineers said scheme
3)???
4)Profit!!
MS would be best off not suing under the DMCA, seeing as the SCOTUS was pretty firm in the Lexmark case about the DMCA not extending to interaction between components.
I never said I was smart, I just said I was smarter than you
I'm sure the "quality" of one vendors money over another will come to about the same. As long as there is enough "quality" out goes thr product...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Why can't someone create an "open" game system, everyone can build/program to, like the "IBM" PC?
I think this was a decision made by the powers that be, by reviewing where things went wrong with the previous XBox, and how they could avoid taking such a hit in the pocket book this time around.
Personally, I can't blame them too much. 3rd Party products do cut into their profits. I mean, why would I show someone else how to make my lunch when they're going to be eating half of it?
This is just Microsoft getting a bigger kick-back from 3rd party products so Microsoft doesn't lose as much money from their sales.
Nintendo has always been a customer-friendly company so I doubt they would do something like that. Anyways, we all know that Xenon and Cell suck - Anandtech had an article on it but that article was mysteriously removed from the website, no doubt because of Sony or MS putting (legal?) pressure on them. Luckily, you can read it here.
The revolution has a fair amount of features to satisfy us, and we don't have to deal with Sony and MS's shit. Quite possibly, GC is the only one that will deliver on their projected system specs seeing how Sony hyped up Cell just like they did the Emotion Engine back in the day.
Furthermore, most people don't particularly care about device convergence for a console, as the people who are buying a next-gen console already have something to play their music, movies, etc. The fact that Revolution will use a strange disc format is immaterial. And if you read the interview above, you will see that it has a (most likely) programmable controller so that you can play NES, SNES, N64, and Gamecube games comfortably - and no mention of fckin locking out 3rd parties.
All my hopes rest on Revolution. Nintendo, you are my only hope!
The NES "lockout chip"
Patent 1
Patent 2
Disabling the chip
There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
I guess it's to be expected - let other companies spend years building a business making 3rd-party accessories for consoles, then squeeze them for licensing fees in order to stay in the business.
I wonder how much it will be? $2? $10? The problem with this kind of deal is that it almost always hurts the little guy more. Logitech isn't going to have to pay nearly as much per-unit as one of the smaller players, so we end up with fewer choices. I would be one thing if we could somehow be guaranteed that MS will make the best controllers out there, but it's not like their track record has been that good.
So if a developer wants to sell a driving game with a wheel or we want to get the HD version of Dance Dance Revolution (yay) then it's going to cost even more than before.
Really though, I doubt this is about controllers. More likely it concerns other types of accessories...like mod chips. If they can prove that "unlicensed" mod chip makers are avoiding a standard license fee, they can sue them for those fees to either put them out of business or make it too expensive to make a product. If it's not illegal yet, I'm sure there's a lobbyist somewhere working on it.
When the Xbox fist came out me and my buds picked up a bunch of aftermarket controllers cuz they were about $10 cheaper a piece. After that we never bought anything non-MS branded. The aftermarket controllers were crap. DOA 3 had button sensitive moves, and you could NOT perform the lighter touch moves in the controller. It was so bad that whoever had the 'real' controller won every time.
And they said it would be years until Trusted Computing... Not that this really surprises me.
Is it just me - or is that the most unreasonable assumption that has ever been purported? This is a ridiculous claim - even for Micro$osft!
"The Mad Catz license agreement also puts limits on the type of controllers that third parties can make. Most notably, the add-on products can only be of the corded variety, while Microsoft itself is supporting wireless controllers.
In addition to the restrictions on wireless products, the Mad Catz contract excludes light guns, memory units, hard drives and cheat cards. Licensed peripherals include game pads, steering wheels, arcade sticks, flight sticks and dance pads.
So,can we expect DMCA action "Cheat cards"? I'm guessing there will also be adaptors for unlicensed xbox360 controllers at some point. Get them while they're grey market!
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
People don't like being overcharged for things. Going "we don't need those poor people, we'll just target the people who don't care HOW much they have to pay" is the exact line of reasoning that's currently keeping the PSP from being anything but a tiny niche product.
Really... you can target the 10% who will let you name your price, or you can target the 90% with the personal entertainment budget that is something other than "unlimited". Guess which one is more profitable? More specifically, guess which one the PS2 is making all those bajillions of dollars off of now?
Moves like these are based solely on the expected demand from consumers for these consoles. If consumers are frothing at the mouth to get their hands on the new xbox 360, then peripheral manufacturers are going to be frothing at the mouth to supply them with whiz-bang accessories. MS wins: a good business decision.
However, the opposite was true of Nintendo after their fatal decision to stick with cartriges for N64. For years, Nintendo dominated the console market, and for that, they required that all games were authorized by them and I believe even manufactured at one of their own sites. They could do this solely because there was incredible demand for their consoles. When Sony entered the market and support for Nintendo waned, all of a sudden they needed to offer game producers incentives to keep making games for Nintendo consoles.
The only thing that this sort of decision by Microsoft is saying is that they believe very strongly that their next gaming platform is going to be massively successful. And to me, that isn't really such a bad thing.
After paying $50+ for the Everquest2 game, then $15 a month for the privelege of actually using the game, then finding out that Sony wanted a piece of the action on items sold in Station Exchange auctions...I got an idea of how Sony treats its customers. I'm sure they are elated that MS took this step, now they can treat 3rd party vendors the same way.
Am I bitter? Oh, a tad.
I've since moved to Guildwars. It's possibly the best RPG game I've ever played.
I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
3rd party memory cards are fine, better than official ones usually. No need for MS to get involved here.
Third party controllers often suck, although I like having the option of buying a $10 dance mat to try DDR and upgrading to a good one if I like it. So maybe it's best if they leave that alone too.
Sums it all up
If some extremely cool 3rd-party controller/widget maker just doesn't want to get into the MS zone, then they can just focus their ultra-cool talents, superior pricing, and fantastic wonderfulness somewhere else. And then no one will want the walled-off fancy ivory tower product, and that will be that.
Or not. But the point is, it's a wildly competitive product space. It they can't attract the right 3rd party stuff at a good price, and assure their users that 3rd party stuff is going to be something other than a rip-off, then they'll lose. Let them, or support them. It's a choice - and the choice is X or not X. S or not. N or not.
If it was my product, I suppose I'd probably also have an interest in not seeing its reputation tainted by someone's experience with a cheesy, ill-behaved, flaky third-party add-on. Because some 10 year old is going to come back from his friend's house talking Dad into buying him a Sony box since the Xbox kept hanging up when they were using the Acme Kick Boxing Motion Sensor Gloves that only cost $10 on eBay.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
This could be an advantageous venture for the software giant, and but not for the consumer.. if he /she is willing to pay a little more.
2 likely scenarios most likely will play out in paralell.
(1) Microsoft instates some sort of seal of quality, whereby manufactures who shovel sh*t products will likey be filtered. In exchange for paying this royalty, Microsoft could also provide the manufactures with detailed specs and the companies would invest in differentiating themselves to sell their preimium controllers and niche add ons.
(2) However - Most probably, the only specs they will be passing out are how to validate the security function, similar to how the serial number works for their OS's - a we all know how well those work. Alternatively, a new under ground market would emerege producing accessories provided at cheaper prices from other countries (e.g. China).
In either case... the companies manufacturing these accessories are for-profit organizations, they have margins to meet... so the cost will most definetly be passed to the consumer - Yeah that's YOU!
austintsmith.com
So, hobbyists won't be able to connect custom stuff to the XBox 360?
I think I'll sit that one out. Not because I want to do it but because amateur hackers thinking up new uses for stuff is a great source of new ideas and gadgets... the more Microsoft locks up their systems, the less they'll have a part in the next generation of inventors.
Based on crap like this I can say that I will not buy the Xbox no matter how much better it turns to be than lets say PS/3. There is no way I want to support anything like this. So until Sony does something similar, all my money will go to them.
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
Finally, will Sony follow a similar strategy to eke additional revenues out of its PlayStation 3?
:/
God, I hope not.
Because if there's one thing the PS3 is going to need badly, it's going to be a healthy market for third party controllers...
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Unfortunately for MS, the Lexmark decision already stops them from suing (or at least winning) someone for cracking their DRM. The DMCA protections for digital encryption have already been struck down in regard to physical devices. There's no laws stopping the third party use of a game conroller, even if you have to crack encryption on the system. I bet MS is just hoping to keep the competition at bay for the first 6 months while people work to crack the system and get compatible controllers to market.
It's bad enough that you have to buy all new controllers every time a new console comes out, for each console. This is bull$hit.
Forgetting the anti-M$ aspect for a moment (yes, hard for slashdotters), I think that this move is pretty ground breaking. It brings a secure/trusted model to the masses.
Think about it for the moment, there are very few simple solutions out there currently that can SECURELY* authenticate 2 devices/parties in such a manner.
Now extend this to the mass market - ship your customer a USB FOB with this functionality. Instant mutual auth.
* by securely, I mean using hardware based crypto where the costs/effort to break the security far exceed the benefits. Actually, I lie...the banking/payments markets are moving to the EMV standard (chip card). These mass issue and very cheap, yet provide heavy duty security.
1. Sell Xbox 360 at a significant loss on each unit.
;)
/me
2. ???
3. Profit!
We finally know what "2. ???" means. Indeed, the headline on news.com's home page is "Profit Plan For Xbox 360."
Seriously, TFA also reveals other interesting items in Mad Catz Interactive's agreement with Microsoft. But I consider these to be real head-scratchers. Quoting TFA:
"The Mad Catz license agreement also puts limits on the type of controllers that third parties can make. Most notably, the add-on products can only be of the corded variety, while Microsoft itself is supporting wireless controllers.
"In addition to the restrictions on wireless products, the Mad Catz contract excludes light guns, memory units, hard drives and cheat cards. Licensed peripherals include game pads, steering wheels, arcade sticks, flight sticks and dance pads."
My question: if Microsoft intends this new licensing scheme to be a signifcant source of revenue, why would Microsoft prohibit Mad Catz [and others???] from making wireless controllers? Surely Microsoft sees that as a real growth area. Is it just naked anticompetitive behavior from Microsoft? [Gee, I wonder how *this* crowd will answer *that* question?
Cheers.
I'm not sure how much different this situation is, from say, Lexmark inkjet printers.
Just something to think about, when next you purchase something that is a controlled consumable (such as a console has become)...
I imagine that the only people who would be happy about this are those fanbois who are going to buy an XBOX360 no matter what. For everyone else, those 3rd party peripherals are going to cost more to make up for the duty paid to M$.
It will end up being such that only the most hardcore will buy the 360, if everything about it is going to be so expensive. Oddly enough, the majority of video game players are either under 18 or can't afford to buy every system that comes out.
Thus, the most money will end up in the hands of whoever can provide the most bang for the buck. And it won't be Micro$oft.
I think ol' Bill has some control issues. Maybe he was beaten as a child.
MS tried to tout their use of a new wireless standard as some measure to improve preformance, but I think this clearly shows the real reasoning behind that decision. Using a new standard they have patented forces the 3rd parties to work thru MS, giving them no options.
Nothing encourages development on your platform more than strangling the developers with a new licensing scheme
These companies need to make money somehow, even if it is Microsoft. The Xbox and PS2 as well as many other modern game consoles have sold for well under cost and have been trying to make money on the games. This sounds like the next logical step.
Articles like this one should give pause to every idiotic MS/xbox fanboy who has plauged every console discussion across the Net over the past five years with gems of wisdom like these:
"MS has 50 billion! Losses mean nothing to them!"
"Bill always gets what he wants!"
"Bill could just buy X company with pocket change from his couch!"
"MS never cared about making the xbox profitable - it was only meant to build "
The xbox project is on its final attempt to stay alive with the 360. The xbox team is lucky MS didn't go ahead with their desire to kill off the project after the first couple of years when it became clear that Sony was leaving them in the dust in sales. Either the 360 can break even at least or more likely turn a real profit or MS is going to kill the whole mess.
Rushing such underpowered hardware out the door ahead of Sony and Nintendo is the life and death gamble the xbox team is having to make now that the amount of money they have to spend is significantly smaller than with the first xbox design.
MS's revenue growth has been on a straight line decline over the past five years, along with the stock price. There are still a large number of execs at MS with stock to unload. The xbox fiasco is the number one financial trouble spot for MS right now. With the massive cutting MS has been having to do over the past year, about a billion to a billion and a half each quarter, the xbox project is a giant target to be cut.
I wouldn't be surprised if the 360 never actually makes it to store shelves in November. And I would say it is even money on the thing getting canceled in the next year or two. Things are just going to badly for the console for things to magically turn around. It is doubtfull the 360 will even be able to hold on to half of the first xbox's installed base.
Couldn't this be hacked with a modchip, allowing both unauthorized hardware AND software to run?
For some reason this brought Batman to mind. "Will the Caped Crusader be able to free himself or will he be fried, roasted and "bat"tered? Why has the joker broken in to jail? Who is this new stranger? Can Batman's utility belt run Linux?
Tune in next week, same bat-time, same bat-channel.
Either pwnage or I watch too much Batman.
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
I'm willing to bet that not a single consumer has ever made a console purchase based on what 3rd party controllers and memory cards are available for that console. No one is thinking "Xbox has all the games I want to play, but that crappy unknown company that I love doesn't make a cheap, unreliable Xbox controller, which could save me $10...I'm switching to PlayStation!"
All that can possibly come of this from Microsoft's perspective is that they make more money selling their hardware, they make more money selling licenses to other companies, and they (hopefully) keep the quality of Xbox-compatible hardware up.
Only to be told that there were no third-party memory cards available. I had to shell out full price for Sony's own card because, so I was told, Sony had locked out unofficial (and cheaper) alternatives. In other words, they had DRM'd flash memory. Cock-knuckles.
But hey, I've bought my PS2 games second-hand since then, so Sony's revenue model can kiss my ass.
You must think in Russian.
After all, how many places can you pre-purchase a games system without buying their game&system bundle? This would be the next step, at least for the lower priced system. While this is strictly paranoia fodder, would companies be willing to sacrifice selling what might be niche products (light guns, steering wheels, etc) for more sales within their core markets, which are more than likely basic corded controllers, and a promise from MS to not compete in that area (i.e. Ok, but not great controllers, like the orginal behemoths?) If MS were to make a wireless controller hub/adaptor of some sort to sell at a premium price, would their additional controller sales be worth more than the potential loss of sales from developing, manufacturing and selling their own wireless solution?
Btw, if this does happen, I'll go down the the Apple store and make mean faces at the Mac Mini...
"Common sense will be the death of us all"
If this is true you can predict some 3rd party manufacturers to go out of business, their profits aren't huge anyway, and licensing and royalties needing to be paid will just drag them down further, I can see a lot more 3rd party accessories being available for the revolution and the PS3, which may enhance the gaming expierence and gain it a better market share.
Microsoft are playing it down the line here, it's hard to say at this point whether it is a good move or a bad move for them and the Xbox360
Business Voyeur
I don't see Slashdotters whining about Apple driving out third party product creators or Mac-compatible manufacturers, or even COMPANIES SELLING APPLE EQUIPMENT!!! Oh, how DARE they compete with the 'Apple Store'!!
IBM did this with their PS/2 model PCs. The proprietary Microchannel bus needed to be licensed for manufacturers wanting to make expansion cards. Needless to say it didn't catch on.
Microsoft should remember this. It was right around the dawn of OS/2, which Microsoft also had a hand in ruining.
Back in the mid to late 90s, Motorola tried this with their batteries for Cell Phones. The phone would check for an identity chip on the battery and lock out any unapproved batteries from the phone. They were forced to remove this 'feature'.
Looks like this could be a move to unlock devices like Gamesharks that have both a software and hardware piece to them.
Sony and Microsoft have never especially approved of them for single player gaming and using it for online playing is a big NO-NO!
Of course I hope this new licensing has a positive component to it. For the royalty I would hope that maybe third party accesories would be tested before release. How many people have been burned by third party memory cards in the past?
Okay, just shoot me now, but I'm tossing out the car analogy again here.
Wouldn't this tactic by Microsoft be analogous to some car manufacturer requiring anyone wanting to make add-ons for their car pay some licensing fee? For example, VW might require anyone making floor mats for their Beetle to pay a licensing fee before they could do so. Or, Honda may charge Panasonic if Panasonic wanted to make a CD/Receiver in-dash player add-on for the Accord.
Seems perfectly legal (I guess), but, sheesh! , it seems childish and greedy.... oh, wait... Microsoft... ummmm, never mind.
This is exactly what I was thinking. A lot of third party stuff is utter crap. I just hope that this wont prevent companies from making the odd stuff like the Steel Battalion controller.
And to those whining about too much control like what caused Nintendos downfall, look at what absolutely NO control got Atari with their 2600. So where is the line to be drawn?
not seeing its reputation tainted by someone's experience with a cheesy, ill-behaved, flaky third-party add-on. Because some 10 year old is going to come back from his friend's house talking Dad into buying him a Sony box since the Xbox kept hanging up when they were using the Acme Kick Boxing Motion Sensor Gloves that only cost $10 on eBay.
Chances are that 10 year old will know that the AKBMSGs are not an original product (don't have the Certified X-Box logo) and not hold it against the system. I know that I've bought crappy 3rd party controllers. All it did was drive me back to first party or Logitech controllers. Never had an impact on my impressions of a given system.
This should be a warning to any game developers and publishers of the type of control MS plans to enduce if they get significant control over the console market. If you thought the restriction and high liscensing fees of the snes were bad, imagine what a console monopoly by MS would yeild.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
Black Rhino Linux
Official PS2 Linux kit
I doubt the HD exclusion in the slim consoles was a result of people modding, but rather a marketing decision or a way to produce the consoles more cheaply.
Mod points are pointless when you browse at -1.
Don't give Sony all your money.
You should keep some for beer and hookers!
Oh fuck, here comes the "teh free market!" rhetoric.
The free market is retarded alot of the time, and buys $30 DVD players that break down in three months.
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
Just a note for fellow readers: don't buy guild wars. Spend the extra cash and buy WoW. Guild wars is truly one of the WORST MMORPG's I've ever played.
Terrible item selection.
Laughable character variation.
Boring and monotonous fighting.
Very repetative creature encounters.
Tons of useless spells and abilities.
Broken health system.
Incredibly low level cap.
And the fact that they label it MMORPG is even a joke. It's more like Diablo II with a 3D rendered chat room (it's just you and your party whenever you leave a city, hardly a mmorpg).
DO NOT BUY GUILD WARS! It will be a complete waste of your hard earned money!
And on the MS tax, I don't think it will hurt the business necessarily as a whole, but instead one more stone on top of the growing pile the little guys have to carry around.
MS would be best off not suing under the DMCA, seeing as the SCOTUS was pretty firm in the Lexmark case about the DMCA not extending to interaction between components.
Yeah if they are smart they will sue them over patent infringement:
1) Create new "Trusted Computing" DRM system, and patent the algorithms.
2) Reject any devices / software that do not use the DRM system, and sue any who uses it without licencing it.
3) Profit!!
Instant DCMA-like legal leverage, without the limitations of proving copyright infringement. That's how the video/codec industry has worked for years, and they have never been overturned in court. Yes it is anti-competitive but that's what patents are all about - government granted monopolies.
king bill will be blythe, when you gotta tithe,
you better be lithe,
to get out of his way when he goes superthithe.
The sad thing was, when I saw it say "King Bill" I thought it said "Kill Bill" (must've been thinking of the movie).
What's weirder is that that seemed to make more sense. *boggle*
Lots of comments here are MS is shooting themselves in the foot and other things like that. This kind of requirement will often be made by existing peripherals manufacturers as this will help them be the only/or a small set of competition for that console. To be that privileged manufacturers they are ready to shell out some money to MS. The only time it gets backfired is when MS becomes greedy and signs up so many that each of these peripherals will have a lot of competition
Next up, charge licensing fees to even utter the name "XBox 360"-- you know, like the NFL did with the Super Bowl. Don't tell me you haven't noticed that everyone referring to it in a commercial has to call it "the big game"!
Come on, Microsoft! Milk it for every fucking dime you can!
I'm not too thrilled about this scheme either, but these third party controllers really do tend to suck big time. I don't own an xbox, but I do own an xbox controller. Years of using friends' cheap, crappy 3rd party controllers convinced me to get a real MS controller. While I'm sure MS doesn't mind the extra income coming in from this plan, another major benefit to them is that less people will have negative experiences with their product at their cheapskate friends' apartments.
You claim that this will "keep prices exhorbidant", but can you identify a better controller at a better price right now? Considering that this doesn't effect the current xbox if your claims are accurate there should definately be such a controller. Keep in mind this is more about quality than features. I don't need a rapid fire button as much as I need the thumbsticks to point where they should.
bit trollent
If by "embraces" you mean "includes an intentionally crippled Linux distro to increase sales of their overpriced hard drives" then yeah, they embrace Linux.
I mean, the NES lockout chip was to block unlicenced rom images from loading. MS already has that, as does Sony, etc. Otherwise burnt discs would work fine in your console.
OTOH, there is no functional equivalent lockout chip for the accesories. No protocol of any game controller has a handshake and auth scheme.
Got anything to back up these claims? I never heard MS wanted to kill Xbox like this. I'm pretty sure they understood it would be an uphill battle.
Underpowred? Hardly.. The Xbox 360 is quite equally matched against what Sony has annouced for the PS3, not the mention the fact it will be out MONTHS ahead of Sony's system. If Microsoft learned anything from the Xbox its that its extremely difficult to dethrone a system that has been on the market for a few months.
As far as the size, most people just don't care. The only complaint I had against the first Xbox was that you couldn't stack anything on top of it. That was annoying.
Really? That's funny, because this pretty graph says otherwise. Microsoft has split their stock over the past few years, which was responsible for one large drop. And of course there was the anti-trust case. Aside from that there has been a fairly steady upward creep for the past few years.
As far as revenue growth, try our friend google before you make completely unfounded statements in an attempt to make a point.
Well, based on the fact that this conclusion appears to be based on complete figments of your imagination, I hope you don't mind if take it with a grain of salt.
That is the consumer.
I'll take the free market and the ability to choose a crappy product vs. a good one, thank you very much. If you really want it, you can have the centrally mandated product that is guaranteed to cost exorbitant amounts, and has no guarantee of quality.
A home kist to convert wired controllers into cordless controllers.
I mean really, not that difficult.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Their "Windows Certification" program has certainly shown that a barrier to entry rarely produces a "better" product. Just a product with a logo on it's box. I've owned a lot of Logitech gear and their high end stuff is certainly decent enough. Their low end however, is as craptacular as any other.
Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
MS's revenue growth use to be in the 20s. It has fallen all the way down to less than ten percent recently. Somewhere in the seven to eight percent recently. It is why the stock topped out about five years ago and has been a fairly steady decline ever since. It is also why MS had to give back the majority of their cash reserves to shareholders recently. MS is no longer a growth company.
I don't know if MS planned on killing of the first xbox or the other stuff you appear to be flaming, if you can't get something as basic, and publicly known, as MS's growth rate right...
...there will be a break-in.
This makes me think of the generic DVD remotes for the original Xbox. Non-ms remotes generally sold for around $5 while the MS ones (the only official ones) sold at around $30. I'd believe that MS was trying to recoup some of their losses on the original console by selling the remote...
Anyways, Microsoft is most likely trying to create a further way to recoup potential losses on their console from restricted features or yet-to-be-announced add-ons for their console (Blu-ray DVD / HD-DVD drives) or other "dumb" add-ons that they may be using to recoup some of their losses on the console overhead.
Well, anyways, this is bad news because this could totally discourage some 3rd party manufacturers from releasing their controllers for the 360 [Arcade @ home controller!]. Oh well, whatever measures they take will just get hacked eventually, they're using bluetooth, right?
.: 2+2 = PI SQRT(1+N)
My 30 dollar DVD player works better than my 90 dollar DVD player and takes up less space. It has served me well for more than a year now. I think I'll hold on to it, thank you very much.
When did reverse engineering die in this country?
"On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
What about items that MS does not sell, such as dance pads for Dance Dance Revolution?
Currently, you can get a high quality dance pad from RedOctane (200$ for the metal afterburner, arcade quality pad), or you can get one from Cobalt Flux for 300$ (better construction some say).
But you can't get a high quality metal pad from Microsoft. I dont' think they even SELL any pads at all... Konami and Mad Catz sell the cheapies.
Since RedOctane and Cobalt Flux are relatively small operations, they won't be able to afford the high tithing costs to get an "approved" controler?
Tepp
whats wrong with MS, why do they have to bring other thrid party manufacturers down?
I guess this will end up hurting them in the long run
if i buy an xbox, are they seriously contending i cant' do as i please with the hardware. if i want to strap a vibrator shaped controller to my xbox, what fucking business is it of microsofts. how can this seriously be allowed, are consumer watch dogs and competition agencies totaly blind and defanged? lexmark i believe tried this exact same rubbish with their printer carts, got sued and lost.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Microsoft is just showing their future plans for Windows. This is the whole purpose behind the Trusted Computing initiative: collect a toll from every software and hardware company that wants to sell something that works with Windows.
Violators will be hit with the DMCA, or patent violations, or both.
Pretty much what Apple's planning to do with their Macintel!
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
Didn't Colecovision try this, and lose in court that 3rd party developers could develop?
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Some of the crappiest controllers that I have used were the "Halo 2 Preview" controller that came in the bundled package. It was made by Microsoft. I don't think there's going to be much of a quality check.
Remember kids, with great power comes great opportunity to abuse that power
I'm not too concerned though, it's going to be the same type of situation as it was with the chips in pinter ink cartridges.
1)DRM-like scheme locks out competitor
2)competitor reverse engineers said scheme
3)???
4)Profit!!
Funny thing; in a world without litigation your analysis would've made a lot of sense.
Wow. They sure are good at finding ways to squeeze aevery cent out of all their products.
I hope manufacturers of thrid party tools stop making products for the x-box. Why pay to make a product for the x-box when Sony will let you make it for free. You know Sony isnt going to make another BETA MAX mistake. Looks like Microsoft is going to learn the hard way.
there is nothing underpowered about the 360. yeah ms sucks (along with sony and nintendo) but their hardware is sound (minus the crippling drm [anti-customer feature] ).
in fact, the 360 gpu is significantly more powerful than the rsx. it does 4x anti-aliasing for free (for adjusted values of free). what good is 1080p when it's aliased or having the gpu do a lot more work getting AA on top of the other graphic loads. multiprocessing is basically buzzword checkbox feature... try programming those memory starved units (256k!) to do useful things... easily.
emotion engine, mark 2.
nintendo and ms have had easy to program computers yet they have a lot less market share. so obviously ease of programming isn't that important to gamers, not should it be. but developers need to be concerned. exotic chips just for the sake of exotic (as if we can call simd units exotic) is of no use to developers. it's 50% hype and 50% simd.
none of the next gen consoles can even hold a candle to a mid range computer, let alone an sli dual core high end computer. the fact that pc's have no crippling drm in them (yet) is the crucial factor for me and many others. we don't like being dictated to; how and when we may use our hardware or how and when we use our programs (within constraints) etc etc.
Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
I didn't buy an Xbox and don't plan on buying a 360. But I would think that having to get a license to make perephrials for the 360 will defintely stifle what's available for it. When you're already an underdog maybe that's not the best move.
Really? That's funny, because this pretty graph says otherwise. Microsoft has split their stock over the past few years, which was responsible for one large drop. And of course there was the anti-trust case. Aside from that there has been a fairly steady upward creep for the past few years.
Your graph is a bit misleading. Why don't you try this pretty graph?
Compare any five year stretch of their history with the 2000-2005 period. It's a fairly dramatic shift.
Since it's not an Intel-based X Box, the sanctioned mod will be NetBSD.
How is this any different than MSFTs "Designed for Windows" http://www.microsoft.com/winlogo/default.mspx program?
This type of program was started with win95 so that you knew that a piece or hardware/software was tested/supported by MSFT. Personally, i think it would have increased the quality of the devices out there... and its an easy buck for MSFT to make
If some extremely cool 3rd-party controller/widget maker just doesn't want to get into the MS zone, then they can just focus their ultra-cool talents, superior pricing, and fantastic wonderfulness somewhere else.
- than-the-real-thing-in-the-long-run Chineese made products that we'll be seeing less of. Darn.
Great point. Furtheremore, the extremely cool controller/wedget maker is most likely not going to be affected by this as they're probably all about making licensed products. It's the knock-off-will-break-in-six-months-more-expensive
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
You know, I feel as though this is more of a quality control issue than what many people are considering it. The number of peripherals released for anything that garners even a decent amount of popularity is nothing short of disgusting. For instance, I work at CompUSA, and I must say that I cringe every single time I have to stock a new iPod accessory. Some of the iPod accessories that I've seen lately are nothing short of pathetic. Example: Today, I came across an accessory that turns a car's cup holder into an iPod holder. Lame. Seriously, I hope that this works in Microsoft's favor. Maybe these developers will think twice before releasing several variations of what is, essentially, the same damn controller. Now, if there's no sense of quality control, though, I think this will ultimately only lead to more expensive throw-away peripherals, rather than dirt-cheap ones. Let's hope for the best. I really hope that Pelican (one of my favorite third party peripheral developers) brings their quality products to the 360.
While I think it is valid to debate whether this is a wise move for MS considering that cheap accessories may actually attract more customers to their platform, I think this is definitely within MS right.
Consider: MS spends a fortune marketing the XBOX brand. They spend a lot of money getting people to want the platform. Then, these other companies come along and feed off of that expense. What MS is doing in this case is saying "Hey, if you're going to benefit from using our Brand, then you're going to have to pay up."
What's interesting is that Intel has had a slightly different approach. They actually (at least in the past) subsidized the marketing efforts of the PC manufacturers in exchange for some control over the representational quality and positioning of their (Intel's) brand.
all this is going to do is reduce the number of hardware options for the product, raise the price of the accessories, and reduce sales. Add this to the added( +$10 ) per game MSFT is requiring and it all adds up to a win for Sony.
It's kinda strange that they are doing this considering for the life of Windows CE, they've been willing to lose ~$1 billion per year and haven't resorted to this kind of extortion from its WinCE cohorts. Then again, WinCE is a software product and Xbox 180 is hardware. And expensive hardware at that.
I just loved how they are not only requiring accessory vendors to pay MSFT, but they also must sign an agreement to NOT develope certain accessories. For instance, nobody but MSFT can build wireless accessories. Good luck with that.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
From all the pre XBOX release stuff I saw it was my understanding that they did this for their games too. The idea being you don't end up with 40 billion crappy PS1 like games like you see decomposing in bargain bins.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
hmm...I think I'd rather have a $30 DVD play that breaks in 3 months, instead of my $80 one that broke after 6 months.
I have always been someone who only buys the manufacturer's own accessories. Ever since that non-Sony memory card I bought for my old PS, I told myself to never trust other brand stuff. Except maybe Logitech...
You can't copyright a protocol or an interface because it's an invention not a creative work.
In order to be authorized to start the copyrighted Xbox 360 game, you have to press the start button on the authorized controller. An unauthorized controller makes access to the game unauthorized.
Actually, Microsoft still isn't deciding who wins or loses. Just wait and see: The third-party peripheral developers will start charging more for their shoddy product that are nowhere near as durable as official products. Maybe then those third-party peripheral developers will put some thought into their products.
Personally, I only buy official peripherals, with the exception of maybe Pelican.
I'm thinking that this will hand a "legitimate use" excuse to the mod chip makers.
Great point. Furtheremore, the extremely cool controller/wedget maker is most likely not going to be affected by this as they're probably all about making licensed products. It's the knock-off-will-break-in-six-months-more-expensive- than-the-real-thing-in-the-long-run Chineese made products that we'll be seeing less of. Darn
What about the niche accessories that are not licensed by the "big" 3rd party manufacturers like Logitech? For example, converters that allow to use a controller designed for a different console will probably never be officially licensed from first party companies, for obvious reasons.
Anyone serious 2D Xbox fighting game fan knows that the default Xbox controller sucks for that genre. So you go to Chinatown and pick up a PS2/Saturn-to-Xbox controller adapter or order it online. That probably won't be an option with the Xbox 360, will it?
(Oh, and the officially licensed "Street Fighter" fighting game controllers by Nubytech are terrible; they are worse than the normal controller and much worse than a PS2 controller).
"MS would be best off not suing under the DMCA, seeing as the SCOTUS was pretty firm in the Lexmark case about the DMCA not extending to interaction between components."
Interesting thought, but wrong IMHO. The DMCA is protected not only by DRM these days, but also by the US PAtriot Act. Microsoft doesn't need to sue someone who sets up a website that publishes DRM cracks any more. The same C&D letter to the website administrator can now be CCed to the DoJ, who will use criminal "conspiracy to commit" charges (or worse). The current regime in power is in lockstep with the **AA in regarding copyright violators to be (practically speaking) "terrorists".
Since I'm a consumer, now if I was a hardware vendor... That'd piss me off.
As a consumer, I'd get right pissed if they charged for the license, but the stuff still didn't work right despite going through a QA session.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I disagree that it's about quality control.
Ever since the beginning of the nineties, Microsoft has been working to change the commodity PC into a Windows-only platform. What used to be commodity PC hardware interfaces, have gradually been replaced by complex, undocumented protocols requiring proprietary, vendor-specific drivers.
And Microsoft was succeeding in their decommoditization scheme... until Linux came along.
Now, Linux has an even wider range of hardware support than Windows. The only place where Windows still has a lead is in the latest hardware releases from a shrinking number of companies still willing to partner with Microsoft. Those companies include NVidia and ATI, who, case in point, were convinced to stop supporting Linux Open Source drivers when Microsoft offered to make them partners in the XBox.
It's not only Linux. Apple and Sun have also released PC-based versions of their operating systems. As a result, commodity PC hardware is back in vogue, and Microsoft is losing control.
Microsoft is desperate to get that control back. Otherwise, without the means to sabotage and block their competition, Microsoft might actually have to start to compete. That prospect scares Bill Gates, who knows that Microsoft has lost every fair competition it has faced, and has always found it necessary to resort to unethical, and even illegal means in order to prevail.
The XBox was one of Microsoft's strategies for regaining that control. But it hasn't given them enough control, apparently, so they're making it even tighter.
The other purpose of this step is to increase revenue. It's not that Microsoft is going broke, however, again thanks to competition from Linux and other Open Source software (Apache, OpenOffice, etc.), Microsoft's revenue has been shrinking, or at least growing more slowly. It is getting harder and harder for Microsoft to hide this trend, and, once the markets notice, Microsoft's stock price could take a huge hit.
Hence, this move comes as no surprise to me, and I expect to see more schemes from Microsoft aimed at gaining income, and raising the barriers to compatibility.
They'll be doing the same with software companies. You'll have to pay Microsoft to write programs for Windows.
For years, Nintendo dominated the console market, and for that, they required that all games were authorized by them and I believe even manufactured at one of their own sites. They could do this solely because there was incredible demand for their consoles. When Sony entered the market and support for Nintendo waned, all of a sudden they needed to offer game producers incentives to keep making games for Nintendo consoles.
You do know that Sony makes their money by collecting license fees on games released for the Playstation? And thus all PS2 games require authorization by Sony?
Sure, this keeps some third party accessories, controllers, memory cards, etc. from being produced, but is this really a bad thing? Seriously, the third party stuff usually sucks badly. The controllers don't work as well, the memory cards eat your saves... need I go on? The only possible problem is that it gives Microsoft a monopoly on this stuff. The upside is that the third parties that are willing to pay up may be able to keep Microsofts prices in check, which is all I really care about anyway... I'm not going to buy an off brand controller. Plus, they still have to compete with Sony, which made a strong case for the PS3 at E3, so prices aren't going to get too crazy regardless.
-=Zeus=And=Hades=-
Too many geeks think success is measured by marketshare when it's really measured by profits. Apple Computer is a good example of this - they might not have high marketshare, but who else aside from Apple and Dell have shown consistent profits throughout the dot com bubble/burst?
Nintendo engineers their consoles so they wouldn't take a loss on the hardware, whereas Sony takes a big loss on the hardware at launch and makes it up with license fees on games. Sony might make more cash in the long run, but I think Nintendo's approach is more stable - a bad launch would hurt them less than it would Sony.
...It'll be disabled via the Modchip that'll be released 2 weeks after the console's debut. Guaranteed(TM).
But Maaa! Everyone else has a
This is typical Microsoft style lock in, soon pepole will see this in Windows too. Oh, wait. They already have.
There is nothing MMO about it except being in town, which is really nothing more than being in a lounge. When you go outside you are alone - that is the antithesis of MMORPG.
Guild Wars is a PvP game with RPG and group PvE elements. The entire concept of Guild Wars is PvP. You are supposed to customize your character like a pokemon pet and go battle. It's a game. In fact, the dev's don't like people grinding or farming and take steps to prevent it.
I'm sick of cool hardware being released, only to have this locked down, money centric, human drama crap foisted on to it! We need to release a console that allows *total* freedom of what is made for it.
Okay, mod me how you will, but I couldn't help noting that Mr. Oh fuck, here comes the "teh free market!" rhetoric is apparently broadcasting from the moon. Sorry, moonbat. It had to be said. And your post was hurtin' anyway.
Don't trust anyone under thirty.
Ok, this has got to be one of the most insane posts, and ignorant perceptions of what the MS licensing entails.
Companies like Nintendo, Sony, and Atari have been doing this for YEARS. And this story is acting like Microsoft is the first one, and the big bully for doing it. It is called quality assurance.
This is done with MOST platform games, they must carry the 'official' licensing from Sony or Nintendo or Microsoft. This is also done with many accessories.
And this story is new how?
Even in 1983 Intellivision only allowed 'licensed' games to be played on their system. And when a company went ahead and produced a couple of titles like 'mousetrap' that were not licensed, Intellivision came out with the Intellivision II, and it specifically would not play any 'unlicensed' titles, leaving customers with 'mousetrap' unable to play the game.
The person with this post and the hype that is once again making Microsoft 'evil' absolutely has no knowledge of the industry and it frankly showing what level of stupidity people will go to 'create' a story, when it is just business as usual that almost all companies in these markets work under.
...as it was with the chips in pinter ink cartridges.
You misspelled "Pink Panther" (Panther Pink?). He, he, he.
-dZ.
Carol vs. Ghost
This is *exact* same model that MS and every console company has used with 3rd party software developers since the dawn of time.
Games are still being made and sold.
Move along...
It may not be a perfect analogy but given Microsoft's history of antitrust problems it may be food for thought.
Insert witty sig here.
Some of the best innovation out there is from a startup coming out of nowhere...I think this will take away some of the innovation that might otherwise come out of it... Just Microsoft trying to have more control over everything and trying to ensure their system is that much harder to mod..of course that will just be a matter of time like always
AS i recall, Tengen's game's lacked the Nintendo seal of approval/quality.
Games worked just fine though.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
I'll readily support anything that keeps Madcatz out of the market.
For the current xbox, you can get third party controllers that can give you an automatic advantage over your competitors. As an example, some people use turbo controllers in Halo 2 online so they can shoot various weapons as fast as possible without having to pull the trigger. Maybe MS is doing this to keep the playing field level for gamers???
Isn't that why mac has such a small share of the PC market? The didn't let anyone else make hardware for their systems.
Sony was making their ps2 memory cards, and if you notice almost no one else made them? why there when the flood of 3rd party parts for the PSX? complete loss in sales. So Sony used a special encryption, and became basically the only maker of the Memory cards.
However it was a pretty much exclusive deal, they did their own thing. they didn't tell people to buy into their product. Microsoft is getting into the area Nintendo was in with the "seal of approval" that they had back on the NES days. And btw those who don't know? there was counterfiet seals back then and Nintendo tried to prosecute (Don't know the end results)
Microsoft is just getting into dirty water, where if they actually try to learn from the past they'd know it's not the type of think that they should get into.
Ugh. Several others have pointed out your mistakes, let me take it further with what I can pull off the top of my head:
:)
:)
* First 4-way directional pad
First GOOD 4-way directional pad. The Intellivision had a pad years before the NES/Game & Watch.
* First expandable system (Famicom + Disk System)
Many pre-NES systems were expandable. Intellivoice is one example, but a better example is the Supercharger (might have the name wrong) for the original Atari 2600. Basically, a tape drive that allowed you to hold larger and more complex games. A lot closer to the functionality the Famicom offered with the FDS. Note also that only Japan ever got the FDS.
* First game not fixed on one static screen (Super Mario Bros)
Many, MANY Atari games had scrolling screens.
* First battery-save catridge
Nope. I have at least one 2600 game that did this. Didn't save more than a handful of bytes, mind you, but it was battery-backed.
* First portable gaming system (Game & Watch)
Nonsense. Portable, electronic, digital games have been around since the mid 70s.
* First portable multi-title console (Gameboy)
Again, nonsense. I have one from about 1982 or so. Predates the Gameboy by 7 years, roughly. Didn't sell worth a damn though, so you've probably never heard of it
* First 4-player games (NES Satellite)
At least one Atari system allowed for 4 player games, and in fact the original VCS did if you allow for paddle games like Warlords.
* First game console gun (Zapper)
HAHAHAHA. Virtually every PONG type system had a gun accessory, in fact the very first home console system, the Odyssey, had one. This was in 1972.
* Idea to include system upgrades right in the game cartridge (Super FX/Star Fox)
Many 2600 games did this, with RAM expansions that the system could use.
* First analog stick for games (N64)
Analog sticks were present on the Atari 5200. They sucked, but they existed. Contrary to what another posted claimed, however, the vast majority (read: everything else except paddles) of controllers were all digital.
* First backwards-compatible system (Gameboy Color, or Advance if you're picky)
The Atari 7800 could play 2600 games long before the original Gameboy even came out. Also the Sega Genesis predates the Gameboy Colour. Oh, to the poster who said that the Intellivision 2 could play Intellivision games: they were the EXACT SAME CONSOLE in a different case. Of course they could! However, even this wasn't perfect - some 3rd party titles like Donkey Kong wouldn't play due to a primitive lockout scheme.
* First attempt at 3D virtual reality in a console
The Sega Master System had (still unbeaten today) awesome 3D LCD glasses, around 1996. The Virtual Boy was nearly a decade later.
* First writable catridge/flash-memory based console (Gameboy Advance)
Huh? If you mean the flash carts people use to pirate games, first, I had one for my original Gameboy. Also, they existed for nearly every other system in one form or another, going back to the original Atari.
* First handheld-to-console connection
This always struck me as a silly gimick, and I'm a die-hard Nintendo fan. I've never seen the point of a GBA on a Gamecube, although I guess if you really like Tingle...
I think you're either a bit young, or you forget your history. Nintendo has brought a lot of these innovations to the masses, but they didn't pioneer nearly any of it. Most ideas were tried and passed over - a lot of video game innovation is w
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
the Lexmark case said that you precisely cannot do this.
Lexmark v. Static Control was ultimately about printing your own copyrighted literary or pictorial work. Requiring Start to be pressed on an authorized controller would be about protecting Microsoft's copyrighted audiovisual work and those of other licensed game publishers. This seems more like what little DVD CSS circumvention case law exists (Universal v. Reimerdes) than Lexmark.
The rich got to be rich by shopping at places like Wal-Mart.
Commom falacy. I'm amazed I've never seen this one listed in those lists of incorrect reasoning/urban legends, as I see it parroted pretty much daily by people who don't seem to understand math.
The rich got to be rich by making and/or inheriting a ton of money. They STAY rich by not wasting it all, and for some, that means going to Wal-Mart.
However, you're not going to become rich by shopping at Wal-Mart if you're making $10/hour. Period.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
this is reallly retarded, some of the best console accessories are unlicenced hacks. and you know what, they harm no one, they allow extra features and make the hardware more appealing
for example, take the GBA movie player. it's completely unlicensed, and is basically a hack with homebrew code. however, it gives the GBA or DS the same multimedia capabilities as the PSP for a cheaper price. obviously, there's no real reason for Nintendo to want to shut down unlicensed third parties beause products like this make Nintendo's consoles more appealing
or take the PSP. people know that you can hack it with a web browser an emulators, and they are more likely to buy one knowing that they won't have a hard time getting third party hacks that take advantage of the powerful hardware to do something besides play games and overpriced UMD movies.
this is just more MS bullshit trying to squeeze as much money as possible with unneccesary fees. it's just like the stupid LOGO testing crap. microsoft tells you that non-LOGO tested drivers can completely destroy your computer and kill your entire family and rape your daughter when all it means is that small companies can't afford to spooge out money to the microsoft behemoth.
"Um, actually, MSFT could do that for the next decade and still just use the interest on the cash they're sitting on to pay the bills for that."
It is simply staggering to see just how many stupid fucks like you are out there whenever an Xbox story comes up.
I own an xBox and have shares in MSFT - I'm entitled to point out facts when it's relevant. Just as you are to post anonymously in reply, as you did.
I for one welcome our new Martian masters.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
In case anyone needs a refresher or summary of Microsoft's other anti-competitive practices:
http://www.msversus.org/node/68
Developers: We can use your help.
IBM tried this with Micro Channel Architecture devices.
I hope this plan works as well for Microsoft as it did for IBM.
See here for details.
Ha Ha Ha. This is going to be hacked so fast.
Given their track record on securing their software I give it 5 minutes after release.
Not to mention there is a firewire port on the PS2
Which was removed from the PStwo along with the IDE port.