I wonder how this potentially impacts the various international treaties over RF? I thought that the various bands the FCC allocates for ametuer use are also agreed to by other countries (otherwise how could hams in different countries talk to each other if they couldn't use the same frequencies). Couldn't pressure come from other countries that the US isn't living up to its committments in using these bands?
This topic has come up several times on Slashdot -- and it contains a bit of flame war between the ham radio crowd and the live-on-the-Internet crowd. This misses the point that hams use a sliver of the total frequencies -- many of the others are allocated to public service of one kind of another or commercial use, and these will be impacted as well.
Additionally, the way the FCC has pushed this decision through dispite the overwhelming technical issues with RF interference should bother anyone concerned with good government. This is the federal equivalent of a property zoning change in your neighborhood that allows a huge factory to be plunked down next to residential property.
Investors are willing to pay based on their guess of future company performance, not necessarily actual, present company performance, nor the value of the company's actual assets. This is why so much analysis goes into those numbers -- Amazon.com stock costs a fortune while running huge loses, or a real company with real assets is worth pennies because investors don't see future growth.
This discussion reminds me of all the discussions about home value. People go to the trouble of having things appraised so they can borrow money or establish their property taxes. But, until a buyer comes along and pays a price the value is somewhat unknown. The sales value of something isn't established until someone actually makes a sale.
Back to the original post - what is the market value of Linux? Seems to me the 600M or so number is somewhat low, if you're an investor who thinks that the use of Linux is going to go through the roof (and you can somehow control users paying you for it when its out there already). What's the value of Microsoft for Windows, say? Investors have pumped up the value of that company's stock under the assumption that they not only have the sales they have now, but there are so many future sales yet to come because its the only game in town. So "Windows" is worth 129 or so a copy because everyone buys it with every PC no matter what, even though it costs Microsoft practically nothing to make it (the R&D being covered long ago). We all _think_ this is the value.
What if we all woke up tomorrow and said "you know what, operating systems shouldn't cost more than $100." And no one bought a pre-installed MS product and everyone was at the local swap meet buying motherboards and loading Linux. A hypothetical to be sure (although maybe not to the readership here). The salaries and "value" of everyone associated with Linux would go up. Microsoft would start discounting Windows like mad to move product. Investors would flee Microsoft and buy Red Hat or Novell/SuSE or whatever. Overnight there would be a complete change of "market value" even though nothing has changed in the cost to build goods, R&D, what something cost yesterday, and what a specific person was willing to pay for one of these products yesterday. The "investor value" would completely change based on the perception of what tomorrow's sales for Microsoft and others would do, even though nothing changed with their planning assumptions the day before.
I think my original point was that a single buyer doesn't indicate the market price, as the parent of my post was about how individuals disagreeing on price mean it has no value. Deciding to own IP is something an investor buyer does, not a consumer, and is based on where the investor _thinks_ the market price will go, but which doesn't directly impact the market price.
Microsoft asks for a price for Windows. I'm not willing to pay more than 3 dollars for it. Our disagreement over this does not make Windows without market value.
The interesting exercise would be to figure out what all of us that are running Linux would be willing to pay for it if it were suddenly unavailable at no cost, not the math of what one person is trying to sell it for times number of potential installs. I think the price of what _investors_ are willing to pay for ownership is different that the market value as well.
Segway seems to have one idea, and a bunch of extra wheels. I think the ATV and Golf Cart market has been figured out using a reverse gear instead of a lot of gyros. They need to figure out how to drive the price of their wheelchairs down a couple of thousand dollars before the exo-skeleton guys do.
Is "Apple.com" protected because it is a trademark? Maybe the answer is for all of us to trademark our names to give some more legal strength.
I was really surprised Floyd did this after the experience with Ficker in the primary. He can't have thought he came out of that looking good. Legal? Yes. The right thing to do? Probably not. Its the kind of trick done by someone that doesn't have much positive to run on. Of course, a Republican in Montgomery County Maryland doesn't stand much of a chance anyway.
I was a big fan of Howard's for years. In fact, I could rattle off a string of specific shows I heard that I would call the best radio ever. Insightful, personal dialogs with musicians and song writers that were favorites of mine.
My interested in Howard waned once they started video from the booth to show later on the "E" channel. My opinion is the drive to have a parade of stippers, weirdos, and make fun of their cast of marginal hangers-on maybe made great cable, but it turned what was a great show in its day into "same old same old" in what passes for morning shows at this point.
The self proclaimed "King of all Media" is on a power trip to attack those he thinks make it hard to do his show. I think pay radio is a better place for his show at this point since it cancels the prude critics, and maybe it will help make Sirius a media force. And broadcast radio ("terrestrial") is a limited public resource controlled by the government and it is unreasonable to expect it to be free from decency issues that are the whim of the public opinion.
It does, but it doesn't charge while the device is on. I believe the USB doesn't deliver enough juice to run the device and charge the batteries, but if the device is off it will charge the batteries. Perhaps the T5 uses less juice to run?
I think when plugged in the car (12V adapter) it will run and charge.
Also, keep in mind that the electoral college was developed when opinions of different states mattered much more than they do now. Today, a Democrat in MA and one in Ohio have more in common than a Democrat and a Republican both from MA.
I'm not quite sure this is true. I think Democrats in southern states don't have much in common at all with Democrats in MA, as an example. This is the whole shift of these states away from Dem and toward Rep voting in presidential elections.
True, a close race would matter more for individuals votes. But, the end result is that the populous coastal areas would dominate voting, and all the lowly populous central states would become dumping grounds for landfills and nuclear waste. And given how the average population is easily swayed by "swift boats" and 40 year old vaguely remembered stories, having different points of view with some level of influence is not a bad thing IMO.
It does stink when your state is not a swing state, so there's little point to voting and little attention from the candidates in Maryland. But as long as Maryland votes solidly Democrat we shouldn't expect much attention since we're a "given".
I believe this is a common thread throughout much of HP's history. Handheld computers, electronic survey equipment, desktop laser printers. HP has been a company that produced wonderful new products. I think cancelling some of them before the market developed, to watch someone else fill the void, is probably part of the history too.
I thought this was funny too. The article talkes about this being hyped for years. As someone that buys HP and works with a lot of large HP customers I would have thought I would have heard of this before. All news to me. http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=UDC turns up three hits, this one and two that seem unconnected.
If a business plans falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it create a loss?
Practicing your right to assemble is NOT a security risk.
I think the point is that this right can be used to create a diversion or block traffic or disrupt security for the end result of committing a crime. It is a crime to be a co-conspirator to a crime, and with flash mobs the concern is that the co-conspirators may not realize that they are being lead into a larger serious crime.
Like all things terrorism, the problem is preventing terrorists who manipulate the system to cause harm.
From a commercial software perspective, supporting "Linux" is almost impossible...because "Linux" means so many different things...Redhat, Fedora, SUSE, Debian...
I'm not sure that "Windows" doesn't mean a whole lot of "different things" either. Win NT, 2000 Server, 2000 Advanced Server, 2003, each with their own collection of DLLs and conflicts dependent on the products loaded on top of them. Certainly the Windows install and update process is easier, but the real support issues on Windows probably come with the same array of complexity, and Microsoft's poor support (or proxy support through the hardware vendors) hardly makes up for what is supposed to be the lower TCO they claim to have.
I agree with your comments though -- I wish Linux wasn't quite so complicated at times to set up and manage. But, I'm OK with this added complexity traded for the lower cost, freedom to change things, and the ability to see what is going on in Linux.
Thanks for those links. At least now there is something to discuss (aside from wondering of how a sketchy article like that gets posted...)
I'm not sure this is about replacing infrastructure as much as it is about monitoring traffic and maybe routing specific protocols and services across different paths and shutting down specific types of traffic if it looks like a DoS attack or worm activity. Maybe its something expanded on the QoS concept. I think its possible that all this still runs over IP and existing hardware, but IANACNE. Maybe some of the more network engineer types could comment on the source of concern, or if this is just an excuse to propose new network switches we all need to buy.
Anyway, I RTFA and got nothing from that, but your links at provided proof that Intel made a real comment on something here.
Lotus Notes VMS Mail UNIX mail (with Sendmail turned off) etc etc etc
We all have been using private mail, those of us sending messages from before the Internet.
By the way, I haven't seen an "E" mail system that wasn't "D" in nature. Horrible term. And not an original idea as pointed out by others. Some reporters need to use a computer once or twice before they fall in love with a press release and an interview.
Cerebral roots? Where/when/what are you talking about? TNG? TOS?
I thinks this refers to the original series. While the acting was hammy, the costumes lame, and the special effects a joke by today's standards, if you go through the writers of the episodes I think you'll find a surprising number of well known SF authors. A number of SF short stories from Ellison and others provided the original source for the episodes, IIFC.
Someone else probably knows better than I, but I think "The Arena", "The City on the Edge of Forever", and a few others had a level of drama that the later series didn't touch. And, without a need for much techno-babble.
Of course, back then they were probably desparate for material and were grabbing it from anywhere, and there was lots of unmined material to grab from real authors. The bigger budget, later series are obviously more formula with their story arcs across episodes and over-use of effects instead of original, thought-provoking content.
It is amazing to think about watching this series over 30 years, though!
Most non-Americans are blissfully ignorant about anything inside our borders, even though they're very nice people. We don't hold that against them, though. They're hopefully worry about their families and life and other more important things.
Look, it's a big country. It would take a long time to get to a border for a lot of us, let along worry about what's the weather like on the other side. People in some parts of the world worry about outside their borders because they're only an hour away.
I almost bought one two weeks ago for a trade show. You pay through the nose for an IP line in a convention hall, and they give you a DHCP line. If you're taking in a couple machines they want to charge you for multiple drops, usually several hundred a line (no lie).
So, I thought this would be an easy way to get all the machines on line (about 3 or 4) with paying for a single line. As pointed out by others, you could just use the IP line, then use your wireless card in AP mode if you set up the software, but this seemed like a simple plug in approach for about $90. Plus, would give us some firewall protection against others in the hall sniffing the machines we brought in.
In the end, I bought the $40 Belkin "internet sharing device" (a router/firewall with 1 CAT5 in and 4 CAT5 out) which was $10 after $30 in rebates. I was worried about RF contention with all those IT vendors in close proximity, and 10$ and a couple cables was simple enough since we really didn't need to be mobile.
While you're correct that a business traveler usually has an ethernet jack for the wall, it actually isn't that uncommon to have more than one machine these days and only access to a single IP. There's some logic to a portable NAT solution. But, I don't think they'll sell tons of these things, given other ways to share and dealing with potential interference with all that 2.4 GHz traffic.
"I watched the tapes of the Nuremburg experiments that showcased how people put in positions of authority could be ordered to torture and kill other people and that the majority of those tested in the study failed the "humanity" test."
What's the name of that law about when the argument gets to comparing the opponent with Nazi's?
Thank you. It's just a type of lock, and any lock can be defeated if you're willing to work at it. They're more about convenience for the "unlocker" than they are about identifying the person.
All the discussion about gummy bears and digging out eye-balls makes me laugh. Most secure installations I've been around have a guard standing next to the biometric device to prevent any manipulation of the device in an unusual way. I think the only time I've seen unattended biometrics has been at Black Mesa, and we all know where that went!
I'd love an explanation of what, exactly, is Slate's excellent reputation?
What is Slate's circulation? I don't know anyone who reads it. I've never seen it on the news stand. I've never seen anyone on an airplane reading it. I've never seen another editorial or article that quotes Slate's investigative reports, or commentary, or anything else about it.
I've read articles about this impending sale that point to millions of page hits on their web site, but I'd expect that from anything that was linked several times from the MSN home page. A large amount of discussion about Slate being sold feels dot-com-ish to me.
PS: I'm not sure why you're comparing theories to pants.
It doesn't matter. Eventually the cost of the digitizing screen will be a tiny incremental cost and all laptops will be "tablet PCs". Much like the little eraser pointer thing, the microphone jack, the floppy drive (still!), and the infrared port, it will be there and only a fraction of the people that buy a laptop will use it.
For those that use it, they have to have it. For those that don't, they buy it anyway.
Tablet PCs are positioned like a clip board, but they're much heavier and more fragile than a clip board. Probably there is a form factor that is about 5 inches by 7 inches for a "Giant PDA/Small Laptop" that some people would love. I know my Palm/Keyboard makes coach seats useable, but I do wish I had some more screen size as my eyes start to go.
Slashdot Mirror
I wonder how this potentially impacts the various international treaties over RF? I thought that the various bands the FCC allocates for ametuer use are also agreed to by other countries (otherwise how could hams in different countries talk to each other if they couldn't use the same frequencies). Couldn't pressure come from other countries that the US isn't living up to its committments in using these bands?
This topic has come up several times on Slashdot -- and it contains a bit of flame war between the ham radio crowd and the live-on-the-Internet crowd. This misses the point that hams use a sliver of the total frequencies -- many of the others are allocated to public service of one kind of another or commercial use, and these will be impacted as well.
Additionally, the way the FCC has pushed this decision through dispite the overwhelming technical issues with RF interference should bother anyone concerned with good government. This is the federal equivalent of a property zoning change in your neighborhood that allows a huge factory to be plunked down next to residential property.
Investors are willing to pay based on their guess of future company performance, not necessarily actual, present company performance, nor the value of the company's actual assets. This is why so much analysis goes into those numbers -- Amazon.com stock costs a fortune while running huge loses, or a real company with real assets is worth pennies because investors don't see future growth.
This discussion reminds me of all the discussions about home value. People go to the trouble of having things appraised so they can borrow money or establish their property taxes. But, until a buyer comes along and pays a price the value is somewhat unknown. The sales value of something isn't established until someone actually makes a sale.
Back to the original post - what is the market value of Linux? Seems to me the 600M or so number is somewhat low, if you're an investor who thinks that the use of Linux is going to go through the roof (and you can somehow control users paying you for it when its out there already). What's the value of Microsoft for Windows, say? Investors have pumped up the value of that company's stock under the assumption that they not only have the sales they have now, but there are so many future sales yet to come because its the only game in town. So "Windows" is worth 129 or so a copy because everyone buys it with every PC no matter what, even though it costs Microsoft practically nothing to make it (the R&D being covered long ago). We all _think_ this is the value.
What if we all woke up tomorrow and said "you know what, operating systems shouldn't cost more than $100." And no one bought a pre-installed MS product and everyone was at the local swap meet buying motherboards and loading Linux. A hypothetical to be sure (although maybe not to the readership here). The salaries and "value" of everyone associated with Linux would go up. Microsoft would start discounting Windows like mad to move product. Investors would flee Microsoft and buy Red Hat or Novell/SuSE or whatever. Overnight there would be a complete change of "market value" even though nothing has changed in the cost to build goods, R&D, what something cost yesterday, and what a specific person was willing to pay for one of these products yesterday. The "investor value" would completely change based on the perception of what tomorrow's sales for Microsoft and others would do, even though nothing changed with their planning assumptions the day before.
I think my original point was that a single buyer doesn't indicate the market price, as the parent of my post was about how individuals disagreeing on price mean it has no value. Deciding to own IP is something an investor buyer does, not a consumer, and is based on where the investor _thinks_ the market price will go, but which doesn't directly impact the market price.
One person does not a market make.
Microsoft asks for a price for Windows. I'm not willing to pay more than 3 dollars for it. Our disagreement over this does not make Windows without market value.
The interesting exercise would be to figure out what all of us that are running Linux would be willing to pay for it if it were suddenly unavailable at no cost, not the math of what one person is trying to sell it for times number of potential installs. I think the price of what _investors_ are willing to pay for ownership is different that the market value as well.
I was thinking the same thing.
Segway seems to have one idea, and a bunch of extra wheels. I think the ATV and Golf Cart market has been figured out using a reverse gear instead of a lot of gyros. They need to figure out how to drive the price of their wheelchairs down a couple of thousand dollars before the exo-skeleton guys do.
Is "Apple.com" protected because it is a trademark? Maybe the answer is for all of us to trademark our names to give some more legal strength.
I was really surprised Floyd did this after the experience with Ficker in the primary. He can't have thought he came out of that looking good. Legal? Yes. The right thing to do? Probably not. Its the kind of trick done by someone that doesn't have much positive to run on. Of course, a Republican in Montgomery County Maryland doesn't stand much of a chance anyway.
I was a big fan of Howard's for years. In fact, I could rattle off a string of specific shows I heard that I would call the best radio ever. Insightful, personal dialogs with musicians and song writers that were favorites of mine.
My interested in Howard waned once they started video from the booth to show later on the "E" channel. My opinion is the drive to have a parade of stippers, weirdos, and make fun of their cast of marginal hangers-on maybe made great cable, but it turned what was a great show in its day into "same old same old" in what passes for morning shows at this point.
The self proclaimed "King of all Media" is on a power trip to attack those he thinks make it hard to do his show. I think pay radio is a better place for his show at this point since it cancels the prude critics, and maybe it will help make Sirius a media force. And broadcast radio ("terrestrial") is a limited public resource controlled by the government and it is unreasonable to expect it to be free from decency issues that are the whim of the public opinion.
It does, but it doesn't charge while the device is on. I believe the USB doesn't deliver enough juice to run the device and charge the batteries, but if the device is off it will charge the batteries. Perhaps the T5 uses less juice to run?
I think when plugged in the car (12V adapter) it will run and charge.
I was puzzled by this comment also.
Physical screen size is probably part of it, unless Treos have gotten bigger than the last time I looked at them.
Some people don't want the phone integrated (I picked T3 over Treo when I purchased last). Work pays for the phone, the T3 is mine.
No knock against the Treo's - I think they're nice devices and they do seem to do everything the Tungstens do, just a different form factor.
Oh, and I still "Grafitti". I don't think Treo's do that, do they?
I'm not quite sure this is true. I think Democrats in southern states don't have much in common at all with Democrats in MA, as an example. This is the whole shift of these states away from Dem and toward Rep voting in presidential elections.
True, a close race would matter more for individuals votes. But, the end result is that the populous coastal areas would dominate voting, and all the lowly populous central states would become dumping grounds for landfills and nuclear waste. And given how the average population is easily swayed by "swift boats" and 40 year old vaguely remembered stories, having different points of view with some level of influence is not a bad thing IMO.
It does stink when your state is not a swing state, so there's little point to voting and little attention from the candidates in Maryland. But as long as Maryland votes solidly Democrat we shouldn't expect much attention since we're a "given".
I believe this is a common thread throughout much of HP's history. Handheld computers, electronic survey equipment, desktop laser printers. HP has been a company that produced wonderful new products. I think cancelling some of them before the market developed, to watch someone else fill the void, is probably part of the history too.
I thought this was funny too. The article talkes about this being hyped for years. As someone that buys HP and works with a lot of large HP customers I would have thought I would have heard of this before. All news to me. http://slashdot.org/search.pl?query=UDC turns up three hits, this one and two that seem unconnected.
If a business plans falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it create a loss?
I think the point is that this right can be used to create a diversion or block traffic or disrupt security for the end result of committing a crime. It is a crime to be a co-conspirator to a crime, and with flash mobs the concern is that the co-conspirators may not realize that they are being lead into a larger serious crime.
Like all things terrorism, the problem is preventing terrorists who manipulate the system to cause harm.
I adopted Linux because I decided I wasn't paying Microsoft ever again, and couldn't afford a name brand UNIX for workstations.
My new server is a SunFire V240 running Solaris...
I'm not sure that "Windows" doesn't mean a whole lot of "different things" either. Win NT, 2000 Server, 2000 Advanced Server, 2003, each with their own collection of DLLs and conflicts dependent on the products loaded on top of them. Certainly the Windows install and update process is easier, but the real support issues on Windows probably come with the same array of complexity, and Microsoft's poor support (or proxy support through the hardware vendors) hardly makes up for what is supposed to be the lower TCO they claim to have.
I agree with your comments though -- I wish Linux wasn't quite so complicated at times to set up and manage. But, I'm OK with this added complexity traded for the lower cost, freedom to change things, and the ability to see what is going on in Linux.
Thanks for those links. At least now there is something to discuss (aside from wondering of how a sketchy article like that gets posted...)
I'm not sure this is about replacing infrastructure as much as it is about monitoring traffic and maybe routing specific protocols and services across different paths and shutting down specific types of traffic if it looks like a DoS attack or worm activity. Maybe its something expanded on the QoS concept. I think its possible that all this still runs over IP and existing hardware, but IANACNE. Maybe some of the more network engineer types could comment on the source of concern, or if this is just an excuse to propose new network switches we all need to buy.
Anyway, I RTFA and got nothing from that, but your links at provided proof that Intel made a real comment on something here.
No need for home grown solutions:
Lotus Notes
VMS Mail
UNIX mail (with Sendmail turned off)
etc etc etc
We all have been using private mail, those of us sending messages from before the Internet.
By the way, I haven't seen an "E" mail system that wasn't "D" in nature. Horrible term. And not an original idea as pointed out by others. Some reporters need to use a computer once or twice before they fall in love with a press release and an interview.
Hee Hee -- with evidence like this I plead "no contest"!
Definately deserved an asterisk -- they weren't _all_ good! Just some were very good!
I thinks this refers to the original series. While the acting was hammy, the costumes lame, and the special effects a joke by today's standards, if you go through the writers of the episodes I think you'll find a surprising number of well known SF authors. A number of SF short stories from Ellison and others provided the original source for the episodes, IIFC.
Someone else probably knows better than I, but I think "The Arena", "The City on the Edge of Forever", and a few others had a level of drama that the later series didn't touch. And, without a need for much techno-babble.
Of course, back then they were probably desparate for material and were grabbing it from anywhere, and there was lots of unmined material to grab from real authors. The bigger budget, later series are obviously more formula with their story arcs across episodes and over-use of effects instead of original, thought-provoking content.
It is amazing to think about watching this series over 30 years, though!
Most non-Americans are blissfully ignorant about anything inside our borders, even though they're very nice people. We don't hold that against them, though. They're hopefully worry about their families and life and other more important things.
Look, it's a big country. It would take a long time to get to a border for a lot of us, let along worry about what's the weather like on the other side. People in some parts of the world worry about outside their borders because they're only an hour away.
They're counting "Jib Jab".
I almost bought one two weeks ago for a trade show. You pay through the nose for an IP line in a convention hall, and they give you a DHCP line. If you're taking in a couple machines they want to charge you for multiple drops, usually several hundred a line (no lie).
So, I thought this would be an easy way to get all the machines on line (about 3 or 4) with paying for a single line. As pointed out by others, you could just use the IP line, then use your wireless card in AP mode if you set up the software, but this seemed like a simple plug in approach for about $90. Plus, would give us some firewall protection against others in the hall sniffing the machines we brought in.
In the end, I bought the $40 Belkin "internet sharing device" (a router/firewall with 1 CAT5 in and 4 CAT5 out) which was $10 after $30 in rebates. I was worried about RF contention with all those IT vendors in close proximity, and 10$ and a couple cables was simple enough since we really didn't need to be mobile.
While you're correct that a business traveler usually has an ethernet jack for the wall, it actually isn't that uncommon to have more than one machine these days and only access to a single IP. There's some logic to a portable NAT solution. But, I don't think they'll sell tons of these things, given other ways to share and dealing with potential interference with all that 2.4 GHz traffic.
"I watched the tapes of the Nuremburg experiments that showcased how people put in positions of authority could be ordered to torture and kill other people and that the majority of those tested in the study failed the "humanity" test."
What's the name of that law about when the argument gets to comparing the opponent with Nazi's?
All the discussion about gummy bears and digging out eye-balls makes me laugh. Most secure installations I've been around have a guard standing next to the biometric device to prevent any manipulation of the device in an unusual way. I think the only time I've seen unattended biometrics has been at Black Mesa, and we all know where that went!
I'd love an explanation of what, exactly, is Slate's excellent reputation?
What is Slate's circulation? I don't know anyone who reads it. I've never seen it on the news stand. I've never seen anyone on an airplane reading it. I've never seen another editorial or article that quotes Slate's investigative reports, or commentary, or anything else about it.
I've read articles about this impending sale that point to millions of page hits on their web site, but I'd expect that from anything that was linked several times from the MSN home page. A large amount of discussion about Slate being sold feels dot-com-ish to me.
PS: I'm not sure why you're comparing theories to pants.
It doesn't matter. Eventually the cost of the digitizing screen will be a tiny incremental cost and all laptops will be "tablet PCs". Much like the little eraser pointer thing, the microphone jack, the floppy drive (still!), and the infrared port, it will be there and only a fraction of the people that buy a laptop will use it.
For those that use it, they have to have it. For those that don't, they buy it anyway.
Tablet PCs are positioned like a clip board, but they're much heavier and more fragile than a clip board. Probably there is a form factor that is about 5 inches by 7 inches for a "Giant PDA/Small Laptop" that some people would love. I know my Palm/Keyboard makes coach seats useable, but I do wish I had some more screen size as my eyes start to go.