You hear more XBox owners complaining about this stuff than PS2 users, even with an order of magnitude more PS2 consoles around. So by that quick measurement, it would seem the PS2 is doing a lot better durability wise.
I have my original PS2 from launch that has yet to have an issue.
Really? Do you have anything to back up what you 'heard' or are you going on inaccurate heresay?
I've had an Xbox since May of 2003 and a PS2 that's a few months older. My Xbox is still in awesome working condition, and my Playstation 2 is sitting in a corner broken and unplayed. Not that I miss it anyawy.
When the submitter says "worthwhile," that decodes as there being too much lag to support network co-op. Is this a consequence of being too lax with one's networking code?
The other possibility is that the Xbox hardware isn't powerful enough. But if they can implement deathmatch, et al., why not co-op?
Your second speculation is off the mark. And the first one is uninformed. In order for co-op to work over a network, you need one of two things...
1. Have the game react the EXACT same way on two different PC's at the exact same time under the exact same situation, so the AI does not desync over the two systems. This is how Doom 2 did it, and is also the reasons that demo files are so small, they simply record player movements. I doubt it's anywhere near as easy for games such as Halo or Halo 2.
2. Send ALL of the information related to the enemies over the network to ensure they NEVER desync. I hope you don't like more than 64 enemies in a single level.
I bet Bungie attempted it, after all, it's what Halo fans wanted, but they just couldn't make it work over a network, much less the high latteracy world of the internet. By worthwhile, I personally think they meant that they would have to sacrifice the game in other areas, and it simply was not worth it.
Also, you seem to think that Netcode is some magic bullet that it's either good or it's bad. Wrong, netcode makes sacrifices, either it is extremely fast, extremely secure against errors, or a happy median of both. Let's say that you had to transfer all of the data for all 1,000 of the coveneant (which are not predictable and easy to 'predict' what their next movement is) on a particular stage every 30 seconds, what they were doing at the time, plus the two combatants, and ensure it got there as fast and as securely as possible. A quite daunting task.
There is a BS-X Zelda style version of the first quest included with Zelda Classic, and some of the more recent quests have really awesome tilesets themselves. So yeah, if you want prettyness, you're in luck.
Good thing that Zelda Classic 1.84 is pretty much a finished project, unlike various other remake projects that get shot down before they have a finished product. So even if it gets shut down, it'll still be floating around on various seedy places on the internet. Though I havn't tried it under DOSBox.
However, later versions (which do nothing to the origional quest, simply add more tools and items for homebrew Zelda Quests) and the betas are a little less stable, from what I have heard at least, though there is a Windows native version of later versions.
These 'gay japanese games' are carving out their own niche market. And they're getting bigger. Hell, who ever thought that Dance Dance Revolution, another quirky japanese game, would ever attact as large of a following as it has.
You won't be able to ignore them for much longer. Soon, they will be rightfully recognized along with these "hardcore" games that you usually play. The only question is if you will throw your inhibitions out the window and allow yourself to have fun with a title such as this or will you continue with such a 'holier than thou' attitude and be missing out on a boatload of fun from overseas.
3. "Referee": I had a friend who I beat very badly at Starcraft repeatedly. He constantly accused me of hacking. The only way he would stfu was if we set up a 1v1 between us with the same setup as the previous loss, and have two neutral third parties (we each picked one of them) as spectators who would then tell everybody at school wether or not I was a hacker. I wasn't, although it turns out he did have a map hack running. Sometimes you need somebody who wasn't in the game to settle stupid arguments like that.
A hacker accusing you of hacking? The ironing is delicious.
And to actually contribute something to this thread, I would actually love to see that sort of standardized spectator system in place.
I nominate N from Metanet Software. It's a simple premise, find gold, flip switches, get to the exit. The game gets incredably frustrating in terms of difficulty, but it somehow retains that "just one more game" quality that all quality games seem to share. It's simple, it's fast paced, and it's FUN.
And once you're done getting your ass kicked by that last blue drone, you can watch other people's high score runs to see a master ninja at work. Truely, some people are spectacular at this game.
Think about it. They are probably tailoring Virtual PC to ONLY play old Xbox games, which had a very specific configuration (not even truely a PC), and only on this particular chipset. Sure, they might make some breakthroughs, but they are going to take advantage of the fact that they are working with two very specific chipsets and get the absolute best transition one could get.
So although the main VPC product might see some carried over improvement, I wouldn't get too excited.
I thought the same thing as you. With Facing Worlds Classic on the demo, the people who buy UT2004 just to play Facing Worlds 24/7 don't have to buy the retail version.
If the new controller is anything like the Controller S, this is fantastic news. Now no more dicking around with adapters or sodering.
Say what you want about the games (I happen to like them) but the Controller S is the best first party controller of this generation...and dare I say ever. (Probably not ever, the D-pad makes my thumb heart after a while, and the weird location of the black and white buttons is all right for most games which assign it a non-essential function, but it blows for Capcom style 6-button 2D fighters.)
Thank god I'm not the only guy who loves his Xbox. Tons of awesome games, plus some pretty underrated forgotten titles if you're willing to do a little digging. I don't think I've liked a console this much since the Dreamcast.
In my opinion, the naggings about "I'm sorry, you're not registered, we're saving our registered resources for registered people. Would you like more information on becoming registered?" Yes/No boxes that come up are just about as annoying as ads. Plus they strip out features like searching for a partial string in a server name.
Stuff isn't free, so you either advertise, troll for the person to buy the full version, or both. Gamespy Arcade IS garbage, but with something as big as IGN/Gamespy, the advertisements are inevitable. People go there, why the hell not should I as an advertiser (I'm not IRL) advertise?
Have you ever muted or banned someone while playing on XBL? Or run into someone who wasn't using their mic? I'm sure you have, because every person I've spoken with has expressed similar experiences; not everyone is mature enough to be allowed mic access.
The same people who use their mic stupidly are probably the same people who spam OMG U N00B HAX0R WALLHACK LOL in Counterstrike. And in addition, I've run into people on PC games with mic access who shouldn't have it. You get idiots no matter where you go.
On the other hand, the majority of Battlefield servers also run Team Speak (and I believe UT2k4 has voice built into the game); I use XFire to know which of my friends are online and what they're playing, and it alerts me if one of them wishes me to join their game. And this does not require $5/mo.
Heh, I don't have Battlefield 1942 because I loate the WW2 shooter. I do have UT2k4, though, and while the number of people I see with with mics is increasing, it's not yet to the point where I can go onto almost any server and say "Hey, is anyone there?" and 90% of the people on the server respond with a "Hey, what's up" coming through my speakers. In addition, I didn't even know that XFire existed. I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's fine once you have a regular circle of gaming buddies, but if you're new, you have to use something like AIM.
You might think it's worth it, but it's a bad concept to introduce into the industry - paying for the privilege of using tiny amounts of their resources, and then denying any optional recourse to the customer.
XBoxConnect?
Ask yourself this: if the same (or very similar) services were available, for free, in direct competition to XBL, how many subscribers would there be?
If there was a service like this on any other console, of course there wouldn't be anyone using XBL. But there isn't. Do you think that people pay for this without seeing if they have better options? Hopefully, the success of Xbox Live will encourage Sony to improve its online support, and charge less...or nothing...for the same features.
Sadly, I don't really have a counter argument for your points. You are right, every single person who is playing an online game is running Teamspeak 2, has AOL Instant Messenger and has it easily accessable from within the game. If the PC was like this, I would have a slightly different opinion. As it is, however, there are too many standards and too little integration. Kudos to Steam and Battlenet for taking that important step, and I appriciate that built in voice chat support for Half Life is getting more people to buy microphones, but not enough people have mics and the Steam Friends list is very sketchy.
However, I have had boatloads of fun with the XBL service and even though you can get some of the functionality of Xbox Live through mutliple programs, I still return to XBox Live and enjoy playing some good ol' Rainbow Six 3, Project Gotham 2, and more recently Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow and Ralisport Challenge 2. (I've played the PC Demo of Pandora Tomorrow, it's nowhere near as fun without voice chat and everyone using controllers.) 49 dollars seems like a lot, but it comes out to just over four dollars a month, which really isn't that much.
Sony's plan, on the other hand, is to provide no unification among the online games, and to leave the online support to the companies who run the game. There is no standard. Some games get it right, like Amplitude and SOCOM, others just plain suck and feel like afterthoughts, like ATV Offroad Fury 2 (an otherwise fun as hell game). And we all know how well Sony itself manages online games. Just look at fabulous examples like Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies (cheap shot, I know there are plenty of Microsoft related projects that aren't properly managed:) ).
So yeah, I do not feel ripped of when I pay 4.something a month for a console online service that doesn't suck.
This is a whole network for crying out loud, not just a server browser.
Xbox Live is not just a server browser and a master server, it has the best friends list implimentation I've ever seen in an online community, voice chat integration (with the ability to leave little voice messages), plus a centralized and DLC (as opposed to grabbing files from the server). That's rather complex, and more than just a master server and a browser with relatively little overhead.
You either pay for the service, or you see ads. In all my time of playing Xbox Live, I have yet to see a banner ad or a popup anything. When WON got ditched for the more robust Steam, you started seeing banner ads while connecting to games. Battlenet also has banner ads at the top of the Starcraft server browser. Both Steam and Battlenet are very established communities as well, so they could afford to go without ads at all. Xbox Live is not nearly as established, and in addition it's ad-free. Therefore you pay the price of a new game for a YEAR of thise service.
It's true that you don't have to pay for the PS2's online service. It's also true that Sony's online service is a joke (Speaking as a former Sony fanboy and being the owner of an online adaptor and many PS2 online games) compared to Xbox Live.
Can you provide me examples of cross-platform games that were better on the GC? And games like Skies of Arcadia don't count, because that was only cross-platform for DreamCast and GC, not GC/PS2/XBox.
I agree with you (except on that 'hardware being cheaper' point, but others have already argued over thar), but I'll play devils advocate and provide you your example. Sonic Heroes.
Microsoft doesn't like companies trying to patch games after release. And the main bugs that do get patched under my observation are ones dealing with online play.
Seriously, when you are dealing with online players, you simply can not expect the retail version to cover every single base, exploits and imbalances are GOING to be found, and they have to get patched. Take the 50 CAL from Rainbow Six 3, used to be the equivilent of the AWP of CounterStrike, now through a patch, now people can simply say they don't want this weapon in the game. You just can't plan for that.
As long as Microsoft continues to insist on the quality of games that are coming out, I don't think that patching will turn epidemic, and will turn from "fixing major problems with a broken game" to "fixing the very minor problems with an already fantastic game".
Actually, I beleive it's almost impossible for the Archie to kill its own. It's attack is specificly targeted at one enemy, so there is no possibilty of splash damage.
In addition, there is the concept of Archvile supremacy. If the Archvile ever gets attacked, it will in turn attack the thing that attacked it, and the enemy who attacked it will never retaliate for the archie attacking it. Simply put, no other monster will attack an archie on purpose, only by you misdirecting enemy attacks at it.
Also, more monster trivia.
* An archvile attack does exactly 88 points of damage, assuming the victem is not wearing any armor.
* It is possible to use the blast from getting hit by an archvile to get places you normally couldn't go. It's called an Archvile-jump
* Normally, a Pain Elemental explodes into nothingness. However, if it is crushed by a crushing ceiling, it turns into a puddle of blood. An Archvile can resurrect this puddle of blood, but what he resurrects is a very buggy Pain Elemental. I've never had this happen to me, but from what I have heard, the Pain Elemental becomes invisible, immune to almost all forms of damage, and able to pass through walls. So yeah, you're screwed if this happens to you.
* It's very hard to misdirect scratch or bite attacks from Demons or Imps or the like, but it's certainly possible, and Demons/Spectres will attack their own kind.
* The Cyberdemon is immune to splash damage to any kind. This is because the cyb shoots rockets, and if it hit itself with its own splash damage, it would attempt to kill itself. This is why only direct rocket hits will damage the Cyb. (Also, in earlier versions of Doom, it was possible for a Baron to kill itself somehow, but by v1.666 it was fixed)
* In earlier versions of Doom 2,, E1M2 had a sargent that hung out behind some bars. Even with the bars open, however, it could not see you until you attacked it, due to a bug that usedt to be in Doom2's line of sight calculations.
The Grand Theft Auto games were at least innovative in terms of gameplay (or at least, GTA3 was... Vice City perhaps less so). With Manhunt, by all account, the only selling point are the buckets of gore and the explicitely sadistic objectives.
Manhunt, in my opinion, was a great open ended stealth action game. Very tense and nerve wrecking. I almost didn't care about the gore (though I was grossed out by some of the higher level execution, some of them were just plain sick). You're right, it wasn't revolutionary, but it was still pretty fun for other reasons other than OMG EXCESSIVE GORE.
I agree wholeheartedly. I havn't played my Gamecube in months because of the lack of software for it. Nintendo should stick to what it's good at, making kick ass games. Their stupid decisions reguarding hardware got old two generations ago.
But yeah, my co-worker does a bunch of the stuff you are describing, except he has a physical windows PC a few feet from his G5 with IE 5.0, and Opera. He has all the bases that you have described covered (except text-based), and if he needs something tested in Konqurer or something similar he asks me.
Slashdot Mirror
I have my original PS2 from launch that has yet to have an issue.
Really? Do you have anything to back up what you 'heard' or are you going on inaccurate heresay?
I've had an Xbox since May of 2003 and a PS2 that's a few months older. My Xbox is still in awesome working condition, and my Playstation 2 is sitting in a corner broken and unplayed. Not that I miss it anyawy.
The other possibility is that the Xbox hardware isn't powerful enough. But if they can implement deathmatch, et al., why not co-op?
Your second speculation is off the mark. And the first one is uninformed. In order for co-op to work over a network, you need one of two things...
1. Have the game react the EXACT same way on two different PC's at the exact same time under the exact same situation, so the AI does not desync over the two systems. This is how Doom 2 did it, and is also the reasons that demo files are so small, they simply record player movements. I doubt it's anywhere near as easy for games such as Halo or Halo 2.
2. Send ALL of the information related to the enemies over the network to ensure they NEVER desync. I hope you don't like more than 64 enemies in a single level.
I bet Bungie attempted it, after all, it's what Halo fans wanted, but they just couldn't make it work over a network, much less the high latteracy world of the internet. By worthwhile, I personally think they meant that they would have to sacrifice the game in other areas, and it simply was not worth it.
Also, you seem to think that Netcode is some magic bullet that it's either good or it's bad. Wrong, netcode makes sacrifices, either it is extremely fast, extremely secure against errors, or a happy median of both. Let's say that you had to transfer all of the data for all 1,000 of the coveneant (which are not predictable and easy to 'predict' what their next movement is) on a particular stage every 30 seconds, what they were doing at the time, plus the two combatants, and ensure it got there as fast and as securely as possible. A quite daunting task.
There is a BS-X Zelda style version of the first quest included with Zelda Classic, and some of the more recent quests have really awesome tilesets themselves. So yeah, if you want prettyness, you're in luck.
However, later versions (which do nothing to the origional quest, simply add more tools and items for homebrew Zelda Quests) and the betas are a little less stable, from what I have heard at least, though there is a Windows native version of later versions.
Honestly, when stupid politics gets in the way of enjoying games, something is wrong.
You won't be able to ignore them for much longer. Soon, they will be rightfully recognized along with these "hardcore" games that you usually play. The only question is if you will throw your inhibitions out the window and allow yourself to have fun with a title such as this or will you continue with such a 'holier than thou' attitude and be missing out on a boatload of fun from overseas.
MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
A hacker accusing you of hacking? The ironing is delicious.
And to actually contribute something to this thread, I would actually love to see that sort of standardized spectator system in place.
And once you're done getting your ass kicked by that last blue drone, you can watch other people's high score runs to see a master ninja at work. Truely, some people are spectacular at this game.
So although the main VPC product might see some carried over improvement, I wouldn't get too excited.
I approve. Weeds them out. :thumbsup:
Say what you want about the games (I happen to like them) but the Controller S is the best first party controller of this generation...and dare I say ever. (Probably not ever, the D-pad makes my thumb heart after a while, and the weird location of the black and white buttons is all right for most games which assign it a non-essential function, but it blows for Capcom style 6-button 2D fighters.)
Thank god I'm not the only guy who loves his Xbox. Tons of awesome games, plus some pretty underrated forgotten titles if you're willing to do a little digging. I don't think I've liked a console this much since the Dreamcast.
Stuff isn't free, so you either advertise, troll for the person to buy the full version, or both. Gamespy Arcade IS garbage, but with something as big as IGN/Gamespy, the advertisements are inevitable. People go there, why the hell not should I as an advertiser (I'm not IRL) advertise?
ok thank you for your insightful comment
Have you ever muted or banned someone while playing on XBL? Or run into someone who wasn't using their mic? I'm sure you have, because every person I've spoken with has expressed similar experiences; not everyone is mature enough to be allowed mic access.
The same people who use their mic stupidly are probably the same people who spam OMG U N00B HAX0R WALLHACK LOL in Counterstrike. And in addition, I've run into people on PC games with mic access who shouldn't have it. You get idiots no matter where you go.
On the other hand, the majority of Battlefield servers also run Team Speak (and I believe UT2k4 has voice built into the game); I use XFire to know which of my friends are online and what they're playing, and it alerts me if one of them wishes me to join their game. And this does not require $5/mo.
Heh, I don't have Battlefield 1942 because I loate the WW2 shooter. I do have UT2k4, though, and while the number of people I see with with mics is increasing, it's not yet to the point where I can go onto almost any server and say "Hey, is anyone there?" and 90% of the people on the server respond with a "Hey, what's up" coming through my speakers. In addition, I didn't even know that XFire existed. I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's fine once you have a regular circle of gaming buddies, but if you're new, you have to use something like AIM.
You might think it's worth it, but it's a bad concept to introduce into the industry - paying for the privilege of using tiny amounts of their resources, and then denying any optional recourse to the customer.
XBoxConnect?
Ask yourself this: if the same (or very similar) services were available, for free, in direct competition to XBL, how many subscribers would there be?
If there was a service like this on any other console, of course there wouldn't be anyone using XBL. But there isn't. Do you think that people pay for this without seeing if they have better options? Hopefully, the success of Xbox Live will encourage Sony to improve its online support, and charge less...or nothing...for the same features.
However, I have had boatloads of fun with the XBL service and even though you can get some of the functionality of Xbox Live through mutliple programs, I still return to XBox Live and enjoy playing some good ol' Rainbow Six 3, Project Gotham 2, and more recently Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow and Ralisport Challenge 2. (I've played the PC Demo of Pandora Tomorrow, it's nowhere near as fun without voice chat and everyone using controllers.) 49 dollars seems like a lot, but it comes out to just over four dollars a month, which really isn't that much.
Sony's plan, on the other hand, is to provide no unification among the online games, and to leave the online support to the companies who run the game. There is no standard. Some games get it right, like Amplitude and SOCOM, others just plain suck and feel like afterthoughts, like ATV Offroad Fury 2 (an otherwise fun as hell game). And we all know how well Sony itself manages online games. Just look at fabulous examples like Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies (cheap shot, I know there are plenty of Microsoft related projects that aren't properly managed :) ).
So yeah, I do not feel ripped of when I pay 4.something a month for a console online service that doesn't suck.
Xbox Live is not just a server browser and a master server, it has the best friends list implimentation I've ever seen in an online community, voice chat integration (with the ability to leave little voice messages), plus a centralized and DLC (as opposed to grabbing files from the server). That's rather complex, and more than just a master server and a browser with relatively little overhead.
You either pay for the service, or you see ads. In all my time of playing Xbox Live, I have yet to see a banner ad or a popup anything. When WON got ditched for the more robust Steam, you started seeing banner ads while connecting to games. Battlenet also has banner ads at the top of the Starcraft server browser. Both Steam and Battlenet are very established communities as well, so they could afford to go without ads at all. Xbox Live is not nearly as established, and in addition it's ad-free. Therefore you pay the price of a new game for a YEAR of thise service.
It's true that you don't have to pay for the PS2's online service. It's also true that Sony's online service is a joke (Speaking as a former Sony fanboy and being the owner of an online adaptor and many PS2 online games) compared to Xbox Live.
I agree with you (except on that 'hardware being cheaper' point, but others have already argued over thar), but I'll play devils advocate and provide you your example. Sonic Heroes.
Seriously, when you are dealing with online players, you simply can not expect the retail version to cover every single base, exploits and imbalances are GOING to be found, and they have to get patched. Take the 50 CAL from Rainbow Six 3, used to be the equivilent of the AWP of CounterStrike, now through a patch, now people can simply say they don't want this weapon in the game. You just can't plan for that.
As long as Microsoft continues to insist on the quality of games that are coming out, I don't think that patching will turn epidemic, and will turn from "fixing major problems with a broken game" to "fixing the very minor problems with an already fantastic game".
In addition, there is the concept of Archvile supremacy. If the Archvile ever gets attacked, it will in turn attack the thing that attacked it, and the enemy who attacked it will never retaliate for the archie attacking it. Simply put, no other monster will attack an archie on purpose, only by you misdirecting enemy attacks at it.
Also, more monster trivia.
* An archvile attack does exactly 88 points of damage, assuming the victem is not wearing any armor.
* It is possible to use the blast from getting hit by an archvile to get places you normally couldn't go. It's called an Archvile-jump
* Normally, a Pain Elemental explodes into nothingness. However, if it is crushed by a crushing ceiling, it turns into a puddle of blood. An Archvile can resurrect this puddle of blood, but what he resurrects is a very buggy Pain Elemental. I've never had this happen to me, but from what I have heard, the Pain Elemental becomes invisible, immune to almost all forms of damage, and able to pass through walls. So yeah, you're screwed if this happens to you.
* It's very hard to misdirect scratch or bite attacks from Demons or Imps or the like, but it's certainly possible, and Demons/Spectres will attack their own kind.
* The Cyberdemon is immune to splash damage to any kind. This is because the cyb shoots rockets, and if it hit itself with its own splash damage, it would attempt to kill itself. This is why only direct rocket hits will damage the Cyb. (Also, in earlier versions of Doom, it was possible for a Baron to kill itself somehow, but by v1.666 it was fixed)
* In earlier versions of Doom 2,, E1M2 had a sargent that hung out behind some bars. Even with the bars open, however, it could not see you until you attacked it, due to a bug that usedt to be in Doom2's line of sight calculations.
Manhunt, in my opinion, was a great open ended stealth action game. Very tense and nerve wrecking. I almost didn't care about the gore (though I was grossed out by some of the higher level execution, some of them were just plain sick). You're right, it wasn't revolutionary, but it was still pretty fun for other reasons other than OMG EXCESSIVE GORE.
I agree wholeheartedly. I havn't played my Gamecube in months because of the lack of software for it. Nintendo should stick to what it's good at, making kick ass games. Their stupid decisions reguarding hardware got old two generations ago.
Whoops, forgot that Safari and Konqurer usre the same engine. :)
But yeah, my co-worker does a bunch of the stuff you are describing, except he has a physical windows PC a few feet from his G5 with IE 5.0, and Opera. He has all the bases that you have described covered (except text-based), and if he needs something tested in Konqurer or something similar he asks me.
P.S. Anything more than two speakers in a sound system is waste because you only have two ears.