Okay mods, I have to call you on this.. Mod it did -1 for Offtopic - MAYBE - but -2? Then mod all the child threads +1 or +2 informative when they are about the SAME TOPIC? Hello?! Is the mod simply pissed about me liking DirecTV? Seriously, how can you mod that offtopic then when someone replies: " Their content is _arguably_ better (especially when it comes to HD), but the company is no better than the RIAA. Remember the smart card lawsuits [cbsnews.com]? Why on earth would you willingly do business with a company like this?
Where's my lobbyist? Right here. [clickthevote.org] "
They get modded +4?? Excuse me? I mean, I know your prejudice must show at some points, but this is looking down right stupid! Everyone that said something BAD in this thread about Direc got modded up!! Not that I really care about Karma, it's just it really takes the credibility from you as a "news source"...
DishNet would _love_ to sue it's customer, just as AOL has, Rogers communication has, and most cable companies.. You just don't realize it because they have been attacked over it.
Okay, so maybe those channels aren't the best. But who doesn't love Beavis and Butthead? CBS - I still prefer them to CNN, MSNBC, etc..
And as for books, I actually read more then I watch TV..:) I agree, it's always a good idea to pick up a book.. But we are now off-topic, and I fear we will be modded as such, how about if I throw in "Slashdot is better then Dishnet, and NO SCROLLING BLACK BARS on the bottom of the page!"
goat GOAT goat goat GOAT GOAT goat Goat.
I just read a story about you from Reuters:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scie nceNews&storyID=4514020
Who would ever subscribe to Dishnet? DirecTV rules! Seriously, I've seen both, and DirecTV won hands down! I noticed the bars at the bottom of the screen scolling that message and wonder, is this the END of Dish? Good old Charlie's going to have a hard time competing at all with Dave if they lose some of their BEST channels!
Well, since in the last 10 years only 4 Canadians have died as a result of direct military combat, all 4 of them the result of US Friendly fire, will it translate Canadian to American as well? Oh wait, I guess we all speak English.. So much for that..
When the ship starts to sink, valuables will go overboard! AOL isn't in a position to play games with microsoft anymore, I agree they used to be, but not anymore.
You might be right, but there are always other options.. I just don't think fighting microsoft over such small things (media player is SMALL for microsoft) is going to go anywhere. I think they'd do better to support the little guys, then attack the big guys.
So I guess microsoft's next move will be to buy Winamp?:)
I bet they'll be a checkbox during installation "If you want to be able to view video's you will need to click the checkbox" and if checked it will automatically download Media player.. Seriously how hard does microsoft have to work to defeat these things? Last I checked Internet Explorer was still being shipped.. If they really wanted to help, why wouldn't the gov't just invest grants in RealPlayer or something instead of wasting money trying to fight microsoft.
It's funny how many people missed the point. The point WAS that a T1 is inadequate and that people hosting "Pay-per meg" websites really don't know it all.. It's like the guy who came up with a figure of $60,000 a year for his site then said it was impossible that it was another $90,000 more, hello?! Does he think he runs Google? His site is the LARGEST EVER I bet right? The point was web site hosting is RELATIVE to MANY different things. I.e. LOCATION, try and run bundled OC3's to the Yukon and it WILL cost you a hell of a lot more... I'll bet the entire police department was using his bandwidth for there internet access. Gee, that would suddenly explain a LOT wouldn't it? I'm really not trying to take sides on who's right and who's wrong, I'm just saying that according to the math it is POSSIBLE that it actually cost the guy this much. I know of a company that got a deal from their ISP and they run dedicated T1 lines in EVERY SINGLE ONE of there 500 stores. The cost? Less then DSL would have cost. Why? VARIABLES.
$100 a month buys you exactly how much total bandwidth? What kind of speeds do you get? Is that for a dedicated bundled T3's? Of course not.. BTW- The customer list is, well, lacking..
Those rates are actually very resonable. It's obvious that most posters on/. have no idea what it takes to run a site.. I bet/. pays at least $100,000 in charges, would it be possible to have an Administrator of this site quote us what (S)HE pays for bandwidth?
A dedicated T1 line, averages $400-600 a month, PLUS bandwidth charges. And only have 1 line is definitely not what you would call "redundant". What about his personal time invested? Oh I forgot, that ain't worth crap to the OSS society, right? Come on!
Really this is just a. A salesman at work and b. police using powers that only they have, for financial gain. Do you think YOU would have the power to do what they are doing? Guess we are all EQUAL though right?!
It's of course a good idea to post anonymously, and use some degree of caution, but that's mostly to keep the psycho's away.. If you think the "No Such Agency" can't figure out who you are, your probably wrong.
It already costs postage, printing, distribution, and lackie charges for them to put garbage in my mailbox, but that has yet to slow them down, I still get plenty of real junk mail. So do you really think charging postage would stop it? (Slow it down for a short while maybe). And besides, do you really want to pay postage on your email?
Your use of the RIAA is an interesting point indeed though!! Although the same thing kind of applies, how do I get unsolicited email that I actually want?
Well I could disprove all your points very quickly;
"Please explain how this could even be remotely possible to accomplish. The storage capacity needed for 100% monitoring of all ELINT (ELectronic INTelligence) data in just North America would dwarf the capacity of the top 500 data centers in the country -- daily!"
Storage capacity wouldn't even be needed for real-time monitoring (except maybe for buffering). You don't need to "store something" in order to run it through an analyzer. Anything that is stored has already been flagged, that would be the point. Storage is in relation to how long it must be kept. For example, most credit card authorize for MAJOR corporation run through a server that costs (not including software) around $10,000. I'm talking, this server monitors and routes 100% for corporations in the magnitute of 10,000 locations, 400,000 POS devices. Now if a weee little IBM xSeries server is capable of that, why couldn't they do the same thing for COM's? Now I of course realize a credit card TCP/IP packet is less then 200 bytes on average, very much smaller then your average phone call, but like I said, these are done by very small IBM Server's, how much could be monitored using a zSeries server (Or the new T-Rex?)?
On another point, I find it really cool that I actually invoked the response of a real MI person.. Sorry if my comments offended you, I'll take 99% of the responsibilty up to the point where, like you said, your first post was very "vague", and if you read it again, I'm sure you could see how I mis-understood it. Thanks for the replies.. (ps -Please don't show up with any black helicopters! haha)
Actually my first thought was that you were an "insider"..:) =
. I suspect you'l sputter incoherently at my counterarguments again and point to still more Wired and Slashdot articles as "proof",
Well I guess we disagree. I don't want to have to post links to everything I've read, I just wanted to post a few.
Obviously I have no way of proving every one of my points, and many are speculation, but do you really believe you know everything that's going on in there just because you worked there? You say that my points are impossible, but I've got my own experience, and my claims, are definitely not _impossible_.
Good debating with you though! Sorry about the insults, but I think it all arose from some misunderstandings (I thought you were out-right denying the existence of both Carniovre and Echelon.). Let me ask you something, what do you think of MKUltra? Do you believe those experiments and the line thereof led to Echelon (MK-series)? Just curious...
You really don't know what your talking about, it's apparent, you can try and change your story all you want... At least now you agree that the programs exist.. Now for further proof of your ignorance:
First off, it's not as you said "are centralized systems for monitoring communications on demand"
WRONG. They are not one giant mainframe (which of course wouldn't work), they are a great NETWORK of computers. I've seen the satellite diagrams, and believe me, there is at least one bird flying over you RIGHT NOW with echelon programming onboard. ALL COMMUNICATION SATELLITES are plugged in.
Now keyword \ voice communication matching:
"There is a global electronic espionage network, that allows governments to listen to nearly any electronic communication on the planet. The main members of the network, the U.K. and the U.S.A., officially deny its existence, but the government of Australia, also a member nation, confirms it.
The system involves ground-based systems capable of eavesdropping on satellites, and massive computer systems capable of voice recognition, and keyword based pattern matching. " http://www.cs.usask.ca/grads/mds091/ reviews/echelo n.html
By far the best "Interception Capabilites" website I've seen yet dealing with the feds:
Posted by Hemos on Wednesday October 20, @07:12PM from the deny-keywords- dept. samsonite writes "For those familiar with Echelon, 21 October 1999, has been set as the day for everyone to put harmless, yet "subversive" words in emails and postings to overload the Echelon machine. Echelon was once considered a mythical machine that watched all email, internet traffice, phone calls, etc. for "key" words - maintained by the US, among others.
Now for godsake, please don't make me post more links backing up my theories at least until you've done YOUR homework.
Now like I said, GO BACK TO SLEEP YOU SHEEP!
NSA - Never Say a Word.
Like I said originally, don't spew facts from the top of your head and act like you know what your talking about, someday, somewhere, someone is going to make you look like an ignorant fool.
I think I'd crap on M$ for putting that in as a default.
Here's a better solution: 99% of the population knows you have to change your oil, because they are (somewhat) educated in that regard. Why not just educate people?? There's nothing GM can do to make you change your oil c'ept show you what happens if you don't!
Your solution sounds like the default Outlook XP fix: Block any executable attachments. What kind of garbage solution is that? It's called a "Let's break it so they can't use it" fix.
Your an ignorant fool that doesn't know what he's talking about. Did you bother doing ANY research or just made comments off the top of your head. It amazes me how stupid people are. Okay since your too damn STUPID to learn how to use a search engine, here we go.
1. Carnivore and Echelon DO exist. CIA/FBI/NSA have ADMITTED it and it is DECLASSIFED information. What does that mean?
Declassifed documents:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB23/ind ex 2.html
Slashdot news article on Echelon's declassifed documents:
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/02/05/0039239_F. sh tml
You get that out of a book or what?! lol, reading to much Dan Brown..
Trust me, it is OWNED and RUN by the CIA, I've seen the declassified documents (purchase orders, etc.).
Automation is done by computers, true obviously they do not have live operators monitoring all calls. They have computers. Quote from Time Magazine "Saddam Hussain could pick up a phone anywhere in the world and by the 3rd word they'd know it was him". Ecehelon _DOES_ monitor 100% of electronic communications. It's a declassified fact. You haven't done enough homework to debate with me.
Yes _ALL_ calls are recorded, that is still classified as far as I am aware.
How do you know how boring my life is?
PGP is a joke to the NSA (At least that's the common belief now-a-days..). Who knows? I wasn't trying to say I was paranoid, I was just pointing out the stuff does exist. If I was concerned do you think I'd post about it on/.?!
I see your point, but if some idiot didn't change his oil for 20,000 km, would you consider it the auto makers fault for not ensuring that the driver wasn't a dumb clot? (I know a guy named BOG that got a NEW Durango and went 20,000 before asking me "Dude, when am I supposed to go for my first change")..
Slashdot Mirror
Okay, even that I agree with!! Mod it flamebait, that makes some sense, but it was definitely on topic!!
Okay mods, I have to call you on this.. Mod it did -1 for Offtopic - MAYBE - but -2? Then mod all the child threads +1 or +2 informative when they are about the SAME TOPIC? Hello?! Is the mod simply pissed about me liking DirecTV? Seriously, how can you mod that offtopic then when someone replies:
"
Their content is _arguably_ better (especially when it comes to HD), but the company is no better than the RIAA. Remember the smart card lawsuits [cbsnews.com]? Why on earth would you willingly do business with a company like this?
Where's my lobbyist? Right here. [clickthevote.org] "
They get modded +4?? Excuse me? I mean, I know your prejudice must show at some points, but this is looking down right stupid! Everyone that said something BAD in this thread about Direc got modded up!! Not that I really care about Karma, it's just it really takes the credibility from you as a "news source"...
DishNet would _love_ to sue it's customer, just as AOL has, Rogers communication has, and most cable companies.. You just don't realize it because they have been attacked over it.
:) I agree, it's always a good idea to pick up a book.. But we are now off-topic, and I fear we will be modded as such, how about if I throw in "Slashdot is better then Dishnet, and NO SCROLLING BLACK BARS on the bottom of the page!"
Okay, so maybe those channels aren't the best. But who doesn't love Beavis and Butthead? CBS - I still prefer them to CNN, MSNBC, etc..
And as for books, I actually read more then I watch TV..
That *should* save us!!
goat GOAT goat goat GOAT GOAT goat Goat. I just read a story about you from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scie nceNews&storyID=4514020
Who would ever subscribe to Dishnet? DirecTV rules! Seriously, I've seen both, and DirecTV won hands down! I noticed the bars at the bottom of the screen scolling that message and wonder, is this the END of Dish? Good old Charlie's going to have a hard time competing at all with Dave if they lose some of their BEST channels!
They can control your mind from satellites so who needs the implants?
:)
I wonder if this could somehow help me out at the casino?
Well, since in the last 10 years only 4 Canadians have died as a result of direct military combat, all 4 of them the result of US Friendly fire, will it translate Canadian to American as well? Oh wait, I guess we all speak English.. So much for that..
When the ship starts to sink, valuables will go overboard! AOL isn't in a position to play games with microsoft anymore, I agree they used to be, but not anymore.
You might be right, but there are always other options.. I just don't think fighting microsoft over such small things (media player is SMALL for microsoft) is going to go anywhere. I think they'd do better to support the little guys, then attack the big guys.
So I guess microsoft's next move will be to buy Winamp? :)
I bet they'll be a checkbox during installation "If you want to be able to view video's you will need to click the checkbox" and if checked it will automatically download Media player.. Seriously how hard does microsoft have to work to defeat these things? Last I checked Internet Explorer was still being shipped.. If they really wanted to help, why wouldn't the gov't just invest grants in RealPlayer or something instead of wasting money trying to fight microsoft.
It's funny how many people missed the point. The point WAS that a T1 is inadequate and that people hosting "Pay-per meg" websites really don't know it all.. It's like the guy who came up with a figure of $60,000 a year for his site then said it was impossible that it was another $90,000 more, hello?! Does he think he runs Google? His site is the LARGEST EVER I bet right? The point was web site hosting is RELATIVE to MANY different things. I.e. LOCATION, try and run bundled OC3's to the Yukon and it WILL cost you a hell of a lot more... I'll bet the entire police department was using his bandwidth for there internet access. Gee, that would suddenly explain a LOT wouldn't it? I'm really not trying to take sides on who's right and who's wrong, I'm just saying that according to the math it is POSSIBLE that it actually cost the guy this much. I know of a company that got a deal from their ISP and they run dedicated T1 lines in EVERY SINGLE ONE of there 500 stores. The cost? Less then DSL would have cost. Why? VARIABLES.
$100 a month buys you exactly how much total bandwidth? What kind of speeds do you get? Is that for a dedicated bundled T3's? Of course not.. BTW- The customer list is, well, lacking..
/. have no idea what it takes to run a site.. I bet /. pays at least $100,000 in charges, would it be possible to have an Administrator of this site quote us what (S)HE pays for bandwidth?
Those rates are actually very resonable. It's obvious that most posters on
A dedicated T1 line, averages $400-600 a month, PLUS bandwidth charges. And only have 1 line is definitely not what you would call "redundant". What about his personal time invested? Oh I forgot, that ain't worth crap to the OSS society, right? Come on!
Really this is just a. A salesman at work and b. police using powers that only they have, for financial gain. Do you think YOU would have the power to do what they are doing? Guess we are all EQUAL though right?!
It's of course a good idea to post anonymously, and use some degree of caution, but that's mostly to keep the psycho's away.. If you think the "No Such Agency" can't figure out who you are, your probably wrong.
It already costs postage, printing, distribution, and lackie charges for them to put garbage in my mailbox, but that has yet to slow them down, I still get plenty of real junk mail. So do you really think charging postage would stop it? (Slow it down for a short while maybe). And besides, do you really want to pay postage on your email? Your use of the RIAA is an interesting point indeed though!! Although the same thing kind of applies, how do I get unsolicited email that I actually want?
Well I could disprove all your points very quickly;
"Please explain how this could even be remotely possible to accomplish. The storage capacity needed for 100% monitoring of all ELINT (ELectronic INTelligence) data in just North America would dwarf the capacity of the top 500 data centers in the country -- daily!"
Storage capacity wouldn't even be needed for real-time monitoring (except maybe for buffering). You don't need to "store something" in order to run it through an analyzer. Anything that is stored has already been flagged, that would be the point. Storage is in relation to how long it must be kept. For example, most credit card authorize for MAJOR corporation run through a server that costs (not including software) around $10,000. I'm talking, this server monitors and routes 100% for corporations in the magnitute of 10,000 locations, 400,000 POS devices. Now if a weee little IBM xSeries server is capable of that, why couldn't they do the same thing for COM's? Now I of course realize a credit card TCP/IP packet is less then 200 bytes on average, very much smaller then your average phone call, but like I said, these are done by very small IBM Server's, how much could be monitored using a zSeries server (Or the new T-Rex?)?
On another point, I find it really cool that I actually invoked the response of a real MI person.. Sorry if my comments offended you, I'll take 99% of the responsibilty up to the point where, like you said, your first post was very "vague", and if you read it again, I'm sure you could see how I mis-understood it. Thanks for the replies.. (ps -Please don't show up with any black helicopters! haha)
Your right, I was being an asshole, my appologies, I over-reacted. I'm truly sorry for insulting/flaming you. I got too heated..
Actually my first thought was that you were an "insider"..
. I suspect you'l sputter incoherently at my counterarguments again and point to still more Wired and Slashdot articles as "proof",
Well I guess we disagree. I don't want to have to post links to everything I've read, I just wanted to post a few.
Obviously I have no way of proving every one of my points, and many are speculation, but do you really believe you know everything that's going on in there just because you worked there? You say that my points are impossible, but I've got my own experience, and my claims, are definitely not _impossible_.
Good debating with you though! Sorry about the insults, but I think it all arose from some misunderstandings (I thought you were out-right denying the existence of both Carniovre and Echelon.). Let me ask you something, what do you think of MKUltra? Do you believe those experiments and the line thereof led to Echelon (MK-series)? Just curious...
You really don't know what your talking about, it's apparent, you can try and change your story all you want... At least now you agree that the programs exist.. Now for further proof of your ignorance:
/ reviews/echelo n.html
9 24 5&mode=thread
First off, it's not as you said "are centralized systems for monitoring communications on demand"
WRONG. They are not one giant mainframe (which of course wouldn't work), they are a great NETWORK of computers. I've seen the satellite diagrams, and believe me, there is at least one bird flying over you RIGHT NOW with echelon programming onboard. ALL COMMUNICATION SATELLITES are plugged in.
Now keyword \ voice communication matching:
"There is a global electronic espionage network, that allows governments to listen to nearly any electronic communication on the planet. The main members of the network, the U.K. and the U.S.A., officially deny its existence, but the government of Australia, also a member nation, confirms it.
The system involves ground-based systems capable of eavesdropping on satellites, and massive computer systems capable of voice recognition, and keyword based pattern matching.
"
http://www.cs.usask.ca/grads/mds091
By far the best "Interception Capabilites" website I've seen yet dealing with the feds:
http://www.nrc.nl/W2/Lab/Echelon/ic2kreport.htm
Obligitory Slashdot article link:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/18/141
(slashdot loves echelon stories!)
Notice what the slashdot article is about?!:
Posted by Hemos on Wednesday October 20, @07:12PM
from the deny-keywords- dept.
samsonite writes "For those familiar with Echelon, 21 October 1999, has been set as the day for everyone to put harmless, yet "subversive" words in emails and postings to overload the Echelon machine. Echelon was once considered a mythical machine that watched all email, internet traffice, phone calls, etc. for "key" words - maintained by the US, among others.
Now for godsake, please don't make me post more links backing up my theories at least until you've done YOUR homework.
Now like I said, GO BACK TO SLEEP YOU SHEEP!
NSA - Never Say a Word.
Like I said originally, don't spew facts from the top of your head and act like you know what your talking about, someday, somewhere, someone is going to make you look like an ignorant fool.
I think I'd crap on M$ for putting that in as a default.
Here's a better solution: 99% of the population knows you have to change your oil, because they are (somewhat) educated in that regard. Why not just educate people?? There's nothing GM can do to make you change your oil c'ept show you what happens if you don't!
Your solution sounds like the default Outlook XP fix: Block any executable attachments. What kind of garbage solution is that? It's called a "Let's break it so they can't use it" fix.
Your an ignorant fool that doesn't know what he's talking about. Did you bother doing ANY research or just made comments off the top of your head. It amazes me how stupid people are. Okay since your too damn STUPID to learn how to use a search engine, here we go.
d ex 2.html
. sh tml
3 89 1%2C00.html
_ Pr ivacy.html
6 4
0 0. htm
1. Carnivore and Echelon DO exist. CIA/FBI/NSA have ADMITTED it and it is DECLASSIFED information. What does that mean?
Declassifed documents:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB23/in
Slashdot news article on Echelon's declassifed documents:
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/02/05/0039239_F
And of course the WIRED story:
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0%2C1283%2C3
2. Carnivore:
http://membrane.com/security/secure/FBI_Invades
Good information about the technical details of Carn:
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/97/comment/35
And from the horses mouth:
http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress00/kerr0906
(If you don't know how to make the links above work then your a true moron who has no business debating such things with me.)
Now go back to bed you f#$*in SHEEP.
You get that out of a book or what?! lol, reading to much Dan Brown..
/.?!
Trust me, it is OWNED and RUN by the CIA, I've seen the declassified documents (purchase orders, etc.).
Automation is done by computers, true obviously they do not have live operators monitoring all calls. They have computers. Quote from Time Magazine "Saddam Hussain could pick up a phone anywhere in the world and by the 3rd word they'd know it was him". Ecehelon _DOES_ monitor 100% of electronic communications. It's a declassified fact. You haven't done enough homework to debate with me.
Yes _ALL_ calls are recorded, that is still classified as far as I am aware.
How do you know how boring my life is?
PGP is a joke to the NSA (At least that's the common belief now-a-days..). Who knows? I wasn't trying to say I was paranoid, I was just pointing out the stuff does exist. If I was concerned do you think I'd post about it on
Could have something to do with the year? 2004-1986 = 18 years old. Sounds right to me for porn..
I see your point, but if some idiot didn't change his oil for 20,000 km, would you consider it the auto makers fault for not ensuring that the driver wasn't a dumb clot? (I know a guy named BOG that got a NEW Durango and went 20,000 before asking me "Dude, when am I supposed to go for my first change")..
*cough* okay you got me. Your such an intellect!
FYI- People like you ruin a good discussion. What does me spelling TRIANGULATE wrong have to do with this discussion?
Ps - The spelling was perfect, those are grammatical error's you clod. Way to try and look smart and end up looking like a _DUMB_ douche bag.